Identify the cost and time commitment of the consultants employed to assist in the production of the Prison Improvement Plan

7.9   Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding costs of consultants engaged on the Prison Improvement Plan:

Would the Minister identify the cost and time commitment of the consultants employed to assist in the production of the Prison Improvement Plan?

Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):

Two senior consultants from the Prison Service of England and Wales spent 6 days and one consultant returned for an additional 3 days at a cost so far of £806. We anticipate a further bill of approximately £750 giving an overall total of £1,556.

1. The Deputy of St. Martin :

The Minister has previously stated that the Prison Improvement Plan would be considered by the Council of Ministers on 19th October and then afterwards made available to States' Members and Scrutiny. Would the Minister advise the House as to what has happened to the Plan?

Senator W. Kinnard:

The Council of Ministers were given a presentation on 19th October but Members will be aware that there was no funding available for the Prison Improvement Plan and I am awaiting the outcome of funding discussions which are due to take place in the Council of Ministers. But I can certainly say that the Plan will be shortly available to all Members and published as a report.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Minister now confirm her statement on 12th December during the debate on the Business Plan is no longer accurate? We ought to congratulate the Prison Governor and the staff of La Moye for their achievement in completing the Plan while continuing to run the prison without any of the extra resources I have just described that are available to their colleagues elsewhere.

Senator W. Kinnard:

I stand absolutely by that statement, because the costs that have been incurred, which I believe are very minor, just cover in fact accommodation and travel costs. All the work that was undertaken during that period of time has been undertaken at no cost to La Moye prison because of the very good relationship that we have developed with the Prison Service of England and Wales in recent times. I do believe that we should congratulate the Governor and his staff for all the work that they have done when they have not received the resources that their colleagues receive in England and Wales, which is usually in the region of £500,000 and also seconded staff for at least a year.

3. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en:

I think the Minister has really answered what I was going to ask her. I wanted her to comment on whether she believed this money of £1,556 is - obviously I realise it was for practical reasons - but would the Minister confirm that she believes this is money well spent in the longer term view, or as short as possible term view?

Senator W. Kinnard:

Considering that we are looking at a Prison Improvement Plan at a cost of about £1.5 million I do believe that this very small amount is extreme value for money, and I would like to see any other department in the States manage to deliver such a Plan at such low cost. I put the challenge. I lay down the gauntlet, Sir, including the gauntlet

to Scrutiny, thank you.

4. Senator J.L. Perchard:

I have to admit to being very concerned by the Minister's attitude towards this. The Prison Improvement Plan: it is critical that Members get an opportunity to see it and that the Home Affairs Department invoke an improvement plan. I think it has been going on for too long that excuses have been made on behalf of the department by the Minister for nothing less than a poor service; particularly with regard to the vocational and educational training of prisoners at La Moye. It is a disgrace what is happening up there, Sir, and I am not prepared to listen to excuses for any longer. When exactly will the Minister be producing a Prison Improvement Plan for us to scrutinise and when will she be asking the Council of Ministers to fund it?

Senator W. Kinnard:

I have never heard such absolute nonsense. Frankly, this Prison Improvement Plan has been produced. We are all aware that there is no funding for it. The Council of Ministers has agreed through a Strategic Plan to fund the education part, but at this precise moment there are a lot of departments with extreme funding issues. Depending on the outcome of those funding discussions it will have some impact on

what I can deliver in year one and year 2 and so on of the Prison Performance Improvement Plan. There seems to me little point, Sir, to deliver that to Members until those discussions about funding have taken place. I have the Prison Performance Improvement Plan but it seems to me, Sir, that it is of little value to Members until we know whether we have any resources to apply to it. When I have the notice of what those resources are likely to be it seems to me that that is the moment the Members will gain most value from having the plan in front of them.

5. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

Would the Minister not agree that the crisis created by under-funding is her responsibility as a previous President of the Committee for not funding it in prior years?

Senator W. Kinnard:

The under-funding problem at the prison is the result of decades of neglect and, in fact, the only funding that has gone into the area of La Moye has occurred under my Presidency and under my position as Minister. I think that this House is fully aware, through the Scrutiny process not least, for which I am grateful, of just the kind of strategic problems that La Moye prison does face. I do feel, Sir, that the prison service at La Moye is doing a very good job under extremely difficult circumstances. I think this kind of knocking copy, which really is quite unacceptable, does nothing to support those officers doing a very difficult job, as I have explained, under extremely difficult circumstances. I would like to feel that they have this House's support as well as mine.

6. Senator J.L. Perchard:

The officers and the Governor and the staff at La Moye prison certainly have my support and I know those Members that have visited the prison will think likewise. The appalling conditions under which they are expected to work are, as I have described earlier, a disgrace to this Assembly. I ask again, when will the Minister make this Plan available to Members and will she put her position as Minister for Home Affairs on the line if she cannot deliver it?

Senator W. Kinnard:

It may have escaped the attention of the Senator, but the Council of Ministers does try to work as a collective. If I could magic the funds out of the air I certainly would magic the funds out of the air, but the difficulty is that this House - this Government -

faces extreme difficulties, which the Council of Ministers has not yet resolved. I am not entirely sure it is going to be able to resolve them. I am quite happy to give the Performance Improvement Plan to Members but as I say, as it stands it has very little meaning until I know what resources I am going to be able to put towards it. The cost is £1.5 million. At this stage there is not the funding being made available to deliver that Plan. The discussions have yet to be had. It seems to me most sensible to wait until we have the outcome of those discussions, but if Members are insistent on having the Plan I have no problem in letting them have it. It just seems to me of little use until we can say what we are able to deliver in year one and year 2 and so on.