What assistance does the Minister receives from officers States Communications Unit or an independent Public Relations person when compiling answers to questions on G.S.T.

13. The Deputy of Grouville of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the compilation of responses to questions on G.S.T:

Would the Minister confirm what assistance, if any, he receives from his officers, the States Communications Unit or an independent P.R. (Public Relations) person when compiling his answers to questions on G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax)?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

I get technical information from officials in relevant departments, particularly the Treasury - in this case, Income Tax/Customs - to inform the background of my answers. But of course the replies are my own. I use the States Communications Unit when considering how to consult or communicate on policy decisions.

1. The Deputy of Grouville :

As the Minister's response to a written question asked by Deputy Vallois on 10th March 2009 compared in similarity, in points made and wording to a letter which appeared in the Jersey Evening Post a couple of days earlier on 7th March which was investigated and discovered to be fraudulent by the paper [Approbation], would the Minister like to make comment?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I did not hear the last word.

The Deputy of Grouville :

Would the Minister like to make comment? Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I regret the insinuation that there is some issue here. I am aware of the letter that the Deputy refers to. I have also drawn attention to my department by the fact that numerous previous answers to questions of G.S.T. have also answered similar questions in similar terms. That is the only explanation that I can draw from the Deputy 's analysis.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Given the timing of the letter and the statement, did the Minister copy those particular words and phrases from the letter?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I know nothing about any letter to the J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post) apart from what I read in the J.E.P.

3. Senator S. Syvret:

In the event of the Comptroller and Auditor General undertaking a thorough comprehensive analysis of the activities of the Communications Department to see whether any taxpayers' money has been used to fund spin doctors writing fake, manufactured letters to the J.E.P., would the Minister give us an absolute categorical assurance ... he is presently 100 per cent confident no such thing has happened but if it proves to have occurred what action would he take?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I can absolutely confirm that I have absolutely no information, insinuation, suggestion to me that the Communications Unit have acted inappropriately. I will re-examine the text of the letter. I repeat that my attention has been drawn to the fact that words in that letter were similar to previous answers given a number of months ago, I think perhaps under my predecessor who obviously also took advice from the department. I regret deeply any  insinuation of any improper action. I hope the Senator is not suggesting so.

4. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Will the Minister give a categorical assurance that in drafting his answers given in the States he never makes use of any external advisers or P.R. advisers.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Absolutely, unequivocally no.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

So that is no assurance?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

The Deputy is quite clear of the reason for my answer. The answer is no, I do not.

14. The Deputy of St. Martin of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the appointment of an Acting Deputy Chief of the States of Jersey Police:

Is the employment of a retired overseas police officer to the temporary post of Acting

Deputy Chief an indication that none of the current top management of the States of

Jersey Police is fit to act above their present rank? If so, what impact on officers' morale will this loss of this ideal development opportunity have?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand (The Minister for Home Affairs):

The answer to the first part of the question is no.  The answer to the second part of the question is that it is a rhetorical question, it is not a real question, it is an attempt to make a statement through a question and I do not agree with the implications of the question.

1. The Deputy of St. Martin :

Well, will the Minister agree then that the appointment of an Acting Deputy Chief is denying officers the opportunity of proving their worth by acting-up and thereby the opportunity of ... sorry, the appointment of the Acting Deputy Chief is to the detriment of local officers?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

One senior officer was in fact acting-up for a period of in excess of 3 months but the pressures upon the leadership team are such that it was necessary to bring in an additional person from outside to support that team. If someone had been, as it were, internally promoted up, that would not have solved the problem because we need additional people. There is also a technical issue in that it is an A.C.P.O. (Association of Chief Police Officers) requirement for an officer of the rank of Chief Officer or Deputy Chief Officer to have completed the strategic command centre course and at this moment no local officers hold that qualification, with the exception of course of the Acting Chief.

2. Deputy A.E. Jeune of St. Brelade :

Would the Minister confirm my understanding that this position is, in fact, on a short- term contract and it is not, in fact, a long-term permanent contract?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

That is absolutely right. Of course, because we were out of time last week I was not able to answer this verbally but I did by email. It is a 3 months fixed-term contract followed by continuing on a monthly basis. So it is purely temporarily bringing someone in to cover during a period of great pressure.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

The Minister will agree that the current problem arises because 2 senior officers are suspended at present; one for around 9 months and another one for about 5. Is the Minister aware of the hardship and the feeling of helplessness that both officers are experiencing? If so, what steps is he taking to expedite the investigations into the officers' alleged misdeeds so they can either be returned to duty or face a disciplinary board?

The Deputy Bailiff :

I am sorry, Deputy , I am not sure that arises out of your question, but I have seen 2 other Members who wanted to ask questions; Deputy Fox and then Deputy Le Hérissier.

3. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier:

In relation to the Senior Command Post at Bramshill in Hampshire, could the Minister advise, if possible today but if not in writing, of the consequences ... sorry, let us turn it the other way ... could advise in writing of what current officers are being considered for this accelerated year-long course to be able to take up the A.C.P.O. positions in the future that are required as just previously stated?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

I do not know if I can or cannot, I am afraid, because I do not know how that would be viewed from the point of view of confidentiality. I would need to take advice on that.

4. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Could the Minister not give us the numbers, if not the names?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

The numbers who have been considered? Yes, I could give that information. The Deputy Bailiff :

Now or later? [Laughter]

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

But not now because it is a complete and utter surprise.  No one could have guessed at this line of questioning, I think.

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Building on that question, would the Minister give us an assurance that there is in place a proper succession planning system within the force?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

I am afraid I do not know the answer to that question. It is clearly a matter of some importance to me because one of my primary roles is to ensure that there exists an efficient system and succession planning is an important part of that. Of course the position of the Chief Officer remaining uncertain, it is difficult to formulate clear plans until his status is finally determined.

6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Supplementary. Would the Minister not acknowledge that, given that succession planning is a very long, long-term process as the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture knows, would he not acknowledge that therefore it is strange that every few years we shudder to a halt and discover that there are no people apparently in the pipeline?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

I cannot comment on the past, but I can indicate that I am not very happy with the situation which currently presents itself to me.

15. Deputy K.C. Lewis of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding changes in legislation to make parents more responsible for their children's behaviour:

Does the Minister consider that a change in legislation is required to make parents more responsible for their children's behaviour?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand (The Minister for Home Affairs):

No, I do not. The courts already have considerable powers under Articles 9 and 18 of

the Criminal Justice Young Offenders (Jersey) Law 1994. It is up to the courts as to how they choose to utilise those powers.

2.15.1   Deputy K.C. Lewis :

May I just briefly repeat that I seek to protect children, not criminalize them. There are reports of children being able to walk out of care homes any time day or nights and putting themselves  in danger. Some parents have even tried to remove the children from gangs at Snow Hill and have been prevented from doing so by the police who are merely upholding the law. Does the Minister think that in this respect the law relating to children in Jersey needs to be completely redrawn?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

There are problems.  It is very well known that I have highlighted problems for a very

long time. The problems relate partly to the fact that we have no secure Children's

Homes and therefore that Greenfields has to seek to fulfil a number of different functions. There are difficulties; there is a particularly difficult issue as to whether the courts should have powers to sentence youngsters aged under 15 to some sort of order by virtue of a criminal conviction. I personally favour that and while that lacuna by which we continue to have no effective enforceable sentencing powers for those under 15, while that continues, we will continue to have the existing situation in which we have youngsters who are untouchable and know themselves to be untouchable. My concern, like the Deputy 's, is for the welfare of the children as well as for public safety.

16. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Attorney General regarding alleged breaches of the Public Elections (Jersey) Law 2002:

In the light of the Attorney General's recent confirmation that he has chosen to prosecute only certain alleged breaches of the Public Elections (Jersey) Law 2002 and not all, does the Attorney General now intend to tender his resignation? Particularly as this breaks entirely the ethics of the code of his own website?

Mr. W.J. Bailhache Q.C., H.M. Attorney General:

I did not hear the last bit, so could the questioner repeat that?

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

I said, particularly as it appears to break the very code on your own website. The Attorney General:

I do not recall giving any such confirmation as is contained in the question, but in any event, the answer is no.

2.16.1   Deputy T.M. Pitman:

We have in our evidence from the Attorney General that he does confirm such a thing so I think he is misleading the House, which I think is quite shocking.

The Deputy Bailiff :

What is your question? What is your question, Deputy ? Deputy T.M. Pitman:

My question is is the Attorney General misleading the House? The Attorney General:

Certainly not because I have said I do not recall giving any such confirmation, that remains true. If the position is that the Deputy is referring to the written answer which I gave last week, I expressly said that I was not commenting on the facts underlying the 2 current prosecutions which are pending. I gave the answer then as a matter of general principle, as I say, expressly not commenting on those facts.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

But this really is not good enough. Email evidence - an email sent to Deputy Shona Pitman - this is quite disgraceful. Proof. I can fax it if Sir would really like me to.

The Attorney General:

I am grateful to the Deputy , if I may, because I do now recall the email in question and in the circumstances that that has been made public by the Deputy , it was a communication between me and a person who is accused and unrepresented. But, in the light of that, I do confirm that I did decide not to take forward a police investigation in relation to one other incident. Details of that will, no doubt, be available to the court at the time the matter comes to trial. For all the reasons I have given previously, it is simply not appropriate that there should be discussion about these matters in this Assembly when a trial is pending.

17. Deputy A.T. Dupré of St. Clement of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the impact of his recent comments on those with suicidal tendencies or coming to terms with bereavements:

Notwithstanding his apology to the Assembly, does the Minister appreciate the hurt that his comments have caused to those people who have suicidal tendencies or who are trying to come to terms with bereavement from suicide?

Senator J.L. Perchard (The Minister for Health and Social Services):

I thank the Deputy for this question and an opportunity to reaffirm my position. Last year during a private conversation outside this Chamber, I directed an improper comment suggesting self-harm to another States Member. I snapped and I reacted improperly at the Member after being repeatedly provoked and provoked and provoked. I am very sorry I said what I did and I repeat my unreserved apology to States Members and to the people of Jersey. This apology of course extends to anyone with mental health or emotional difficulties and those who may have thoughts of self-harm or suicide. I recognise as well as my apology, that it should be extended to families and the loved ones of those with mental health problems and those that have committed suicide. My commitment to supporting those who provide high quality, evidence-based mental health psychological services is a priority. I assure Members that my unfortunate comment made last year has re-intensified my desire to demonstrate this commitment.

1. Deputy A.T. Dupré:

Does the Minister realise how many people on this Island are now asking for your resignation?

Senator J.L. Perchard:

No, I do not realise how many people on this Island are asking for my resignation, nor does the questioner.

2. Deputy M. Tadier :

I do regret the tone of that last answer but first of all let me just say that I think the whole of the House welcomes the apology that was given last night in public. That notwithstanding, does the Minister acknowledge that any words will remain simply words and any apology will remain hollow, certainly as perceived by the public, so long as the Minister doggedly refuses to tender his resignation?

Senator J.L. Perchard:

I do not accept that at all. That is a position taken by some, including the Deputy I assume, and I do not accept that.  I have made a mistake.  I said something last year in a private conversation that has been used widely now and quoted widely. I regret it immensely. I apologise; I intend to move on and learn from that and ensure that the lesson is put to the benefit of the mental health services and I am committed to ensuring our mental health services are properly resourced and it is a priority for me. I have learned a lesson.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Purely to clarify, I am not saying one way or the other what my position is, I am purely reiterating as Deputy Dupré has mentioned that there is a vast outcry from the public on this issue and it does not seem to have been satisfactorily dealt with.

The Deputy Bailiff :

So were you asking another question? Deputy M. Tadier :

It is not a question, it is purely a clarification. I can tack a question on to the end of it, if you like.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Very well, I am afraid time has now expired on ... The Deputy of St. Martin :

Can I ask that we suspend Standing Orders to allow the completion of this question and the one question remaining? I would like to propose that Standing Orders be suspended.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Very  well,  you  are  proposing  the  suspension  of  Standing  Orders  to  allow  the questions to finish? Seconded? [Seconded]  Very well, the appel is called for in relation to whether to suspend the Standing Orders to continue Question Time until the end. I invite Members to return to their seats and the Greffier will open the voting.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Very well, so we return to Question 17. Senator Syvret?

3. Senator S. Syvret:

It was not my intention to participate in this question, but I am afraid the Senator has again imputed the implication that I did not quote accurately or honestly the remarks he made to me in the Assembly. Will the Senator acknowledge that, in fact, what he terms: "The private conversation that took place last year" in fact took place in the presence of at least 2 other people at a public press conference and that he did, in fact, in the matter in question in this Assembly, instruct me to: "Go and top myself"?

Senator J.L. Perchard:

I am not sure that is related to the original question. However, I will answer it. The Senator, on a daily basis, distorts facts and writes his version of the truth on his website and I am not prepared to try and ... why should I have to defend myself, we just have to read his website daily, he will distort the evidence ...

The Deputy Bailiff :

Senator, can we just come back to you answering the question, rather than ... Senator J.L. Perchard:

Yes, well, I am not even sure what the question was, quite frankly.

Senator S. Syvret:

I am happy to clarify it. I stated quite unambiguously what it was that the Minister said to me in this Assembly. The Minister persists in attempting to avoid that issue and duck around it. Will he confirm that he told me to go and top myself in this Chamber?

Senator J.L. Perchard:

I did not, but as I was not aware that was his question, I did not. I did whisper some

unpleasantries in his ear in response to something that he had, just moments before, said to me and I refute his version of what was said and I maintain the position that I totally refute his version of what was said.

Senator S. Syvret:

This is a serious matter.  The Minister is accusing me of lying and in fact I ... The Deputy Bailiff :

No, no, Senator, I am sorry, there is a difference of statement as to what was said. That does not necessarily impute lying. People in court remember conversations differently every day.

Senator S. Syvret:

Well, he is having exactitudinal difficulties with the actuality, if I might use that phrase then. He told me to go and top myself. That is the phrase that he used to me and I would entirely happily affirm that under oath in a court of law, as I think would probably a few other Members.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Very well. Deputy of St. Martin ?

4. The Deputy of St. Martin :

I can appreciate the difficulty the Minister finds himself in and I am quite happy to say that I did vote for him because I did have his confidence. However, would he not consider probably the best way forward is to offer his resignation and stand again? That way he would test the mood of the House to see whether, in fact, the Members still have confidence in him?

Senator J.L. Perchard:

I had not considered doing that, no.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Since the Minister contests the wording used, will he inform Members what he did say without the expletives?

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Senator Syvret's interpretation of what was said is not the same as mine and that is all that needs to be said except I know what I did not say.

6. The Connétable of St. Martin :

We have heard the apologies in this Chamber, we have heard the apologies in public on the television news and will the Minister demonstrate his intent to improve the mental health services by some measurable means that, in the future, we can say: "Yes, he is contrite and he has improved the services in the mental health situation"?

Senator J.L. Perchard:

I give Members my commitment that I will make every effort to prioritise the support given by me and my Assistant Ministers to the mental health services and that we will endeavour to not only improve but completely upgrade and we do need to be looking at the whole St. Saviour 's Hospital site as to whether it is even suitable. I did mention at the time of my election that I will be bringing forward a plan for Overdale, which I would like to see include a state-of-the-art acute mental health facility which could be paid for by the sale of St. Saviour's Hospital. Yes, I am committed. I did not realise until quite recently that Jersey suicide rates are statistically higher than they are in the

U.K. and so we have real issues here. I am committed and perhaps, I hope, Members will agree some good will come out of this in the sense that the sensitivities around this whole situation, perhaps I was not aware of. I said something flippant and stupid and I really regret and something good will come of this, I hope. I stand to be judged by that.

7. Deputy A.T. Dupré:

Could the Minister tell the House if he would be prepared to undertake an anger management course?

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Yes, I would, I would. But when provoked to a level and you say something ill-

considered and flippant, I am not sure whether that is anger or stupidity. I think

probably I was stupid. But I would be quite happy - the experience would be very useful - to undertake that course, because I have undertaken all sorts of courses already in my role as Minister for Health, S.P.E.L.D. (Specific Education Learning Difficulties) training, for example, Autism Jersey, some very interesting courses, and yes, one learns from that.

18. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the provision of more capacity on public transport during the morning rush hour:

Would the Minister stipulate the number of school buses that return to town empty during the morning rush hour and advise what steps, if any, are in place to provide more capacity on public transport during this busy period?

The   Connétable St. Brelade (The Minister for Transport and Technical

Services):

As advised to the Deputy in a written question on 24th February 2009, the only school service that is feasible to reuse as commuter services are those operating to Le Rocquier and Les Quennevais, being out-of-town schools; 12 morning services are operated to these schools of which 4 are reused, providing 5 commuter services back into town, 3 are provided by white Mercedes school buses which are not licensed for the main network and the remaining 5 return to town empty. There are a number of issues which do curtail the reuse of school services. But I am committed to maximising the integration of all services and will continue to discuss options in this regard with Connex. However, it must be remembered that if we succeed in bringing more commuters into town in the morning, we will need to provide afternoon commuter services to get them home. These cannot be provided by returning school buses and will need to be new services on the main network which will require additional funding, which the department does not have. As far as increasing capacity during the morning peak, I am already proposing, as part of the summer timetable amendments, an additional commuter service on the route 15 which will operate as an express along Victoria Avenue and this is provided within existing budget by simply tweaking the network. In conclusion, I would advise the Deputy that whether additional capacity is provided by reusing school services or by adding new services and morning services would have to be replicated by the afternoon services as well, additional funding would be required.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Minister not acknowledge that one of his aims was to provide a truly integrated service and that the issue in the morning is not necessarily the capacity, it is the fact that it is all condensed within a very short time period. So to say that extra people will be brought in in the morning and that therefore extra services have to be brought into service in the afternoon to mirror those morning services is not quite

accurate. It is the condensation of the services which is the issue. Would he also

confirm that I observed at least 7 empty buses going in along Victoria Avenue this morning, totally empty when people were waiting at bus stops?

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Yes, indeed, the Deputy is absolutely right in that situation is more condensed in the morning, but the fact of the matter is those people arriving in town have to be got home somehow and we have additional capacity issues in the afternoon. So, I do not think that can be ignored. In terms of the empty buses, I am not content with seeing empty buses running back into town and also have witnessed, in a similar vein, the Deputy 's experience. What we have to take on board is the fact that the white Mercedes school buses are not licensed for scheduled services. They are less accessible with steep steps on entry. The drivers just operating the school bus services are not trained or paid to handle cash. They are paid at a different rate, they are part-timers and they are only required during the school term and therefore are on a different contract to the full-time, permanent members of staff. So it all depends on the arrival of the school services as to whether it is feasible to get them back on to the already congested network into town to collect commuters and to get them in by 9.00 a.m. It is a tight issue and one the department is keen to gain the most advantage out of and we think with the present situation that we do our best.

2. The Deputy of St. John :

Will the Minister confirm that his department are thinking outside the box because at a meeting I had with the Assistant Minister and his Director at Connex some weeks ago, I raised the issue of double-decker buses across parts of the Island and I have got a book here of Jersey buses; in fact there is one that goes to Plémont, another one that goes to Gorey Pier, et cetera and the excuses were that double-deckers were basically out of sync because there were too many pinch points? On the roads as they were many years ago - they have been widened since - the double-deckers were running around this Island and I am sure you are aware of that. I am aware that you are possible looking at that, but will you make sure that you are looking outside the box in any review that is going on so everybody in the Island can benefit? This publication can be obtained in fact through the good services of Deputy Le Hérissier.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I, for one - I think, probably with a bit of nostalgia - would be very pleased to see double-decker buses back. They worked very well on the Gorey to Corbiére route as I recall and I caught them many times to school myself. So, clearly there are road issues and a bit of trimming which could be done, as I recall it used to be done with the open topped double-decker by the J.M.T. (Jersey Motor Transport Company Limited) and I am sure that is achievable. I think, quite frankly, we will be leading in the next 2 years towards renegotiating the bus contract towards the replacement of bus stock and these are the times that we have to look at this. I, for one, am keen to take this present contract perhaps in a different direction. The present situation I do not think is satisfactory to the travelling public of the Island in its entirety, but it is entirely constrained by finance and this is the difficulty I have at the moment. I have figures in front of me here which indicate an increased bus usage over the last year of 3.67 per cent, while creditable I do not think is really enough and I would like a new contract to perhaps reflect more the demands of Islanders and be in a position for my department to provide a better service after 2013 when it will come into place.

3. The Deputy of St. Mary :

Again and again the Minister has said that each additional bus requires funding. The buses cost money. I would like to ask the Minister whether he will quite soon cease to think only in terms of the costs of the bus service and start also to add up the benefits of the bus service to the community? What measures will the Minister take to assess the savings and benefits which accrue to the community, both in health

terms, fitness terms, pollution terms and land-take terms? Will he undertake to assess the benefits to the community which accrue when more people commute by bus instead of by car?

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

While the Deputy takes a very creditable approach and has perhaps a different angle on living to others, I fully understand, but I do not think it is for me to impose a policy change on the people of Jersey. If there is a strong enough feel if the Deputy feels that the Treasury ought to take into account the suggestions he makes, I put it to him that he has to bring policy to this House for the Assembly to adopt and transfer to the various departments so that we can review they way we finance the operations of the Island.

4. Deputy G.P. Southern :

I simply cannot believe this last answer. The Minister responsible for Transport on the Island says: "It is not for me to bring a policy forward." When is the Minister going to bring forward a sustainable transport policy for this House to consider and to decide which emphasis we should be directing transport policy?

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I think that the Deputy misunderstands me. I operate the department in a way that has to stack-up financially. I have no alternative. The Assembly has directed my department to operate in a sustainable manner and if we are working with intangibles, it is extremely difficult. But if Members wish us to do so, we will. Now, in terms of

the transport policy, that has been submitted to Scrutiny who are in the process of

reviewing it. I expect I shall have a response shortly and it will form part of the Island Plan which will be presented to this Assembly in due course.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Supplementary, if I may? When will he be submitting his policy and does it take into consideration such things as the new energy policy?

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

The policy has been submitted to Scrutiny and I am awaiting their response. In terms

of energy policy, that will form part of the Island Plan and will certainly have some

link into the I.T.T.P. (Integrated Travel and Transport Plan).

6. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

We are not on Questions without Notice, are we? No? We have got a bit off the point.

The Deputy Bailiff :

We have another 15 minutes for Members to question the Minister for Transport and Technical Services.

Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Yes, but in relation to the bus service, I wonder if the Minister has considered asking the Comptroller and Auditor General to review the operation of the Connex contract to see whether it has provided value for money and where it could be improved?

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I would be quite happy for any review into the contract and in fact my department will shortly be, over the next 2 years in fact, getting involved with that to see how we can improve it to the benefit of the public of this Island.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Final question then from Deputy Le Hérissier? No. Very well, that completes Question Time. So we then move to Questions without Notice  [Laughter]  and questions are to the Minister for Transport and Technical Services.