Public Accounts Committee - Approved Panel Minutes - 10 November 2008

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PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE (40th Meeting)

10th November 2008

PART A

All members were present, with the exception of Senator L. Norman, Deputy A. Breckon and Messrs. R. Bignell, C. Evans and A. Grimes, from whom apologies had been received.

Deputy S.C. Ferguson, Chairman Connétable D.J. Murphy

Deputy J.G. Reed

Deupty R.G. Le Hérissier M. Magee Advocate A. Ohlsson

In attendance -

P. Monamy, Acting Clerk to the Public Accounts Committee Miss A-C. Heuston, States Greffe

Note: The Minutes of this meeting comprise Part A only.

Comptroller and A1. The Committee noted that Mr. C. Swinson, O.B.E, Comptroller and Auditor Auditor General: General, was regrettably unable to attend the meeting.

unable to attend.

Minutes. A2. The Minutes of the Meeting held on 27th October 2008 (Parts A and B),

having been previously circulated, were taken as read and were confirmed.

Current projects. A3. The Committee received an update from the Chairman summarising the 512/1(24) conclusions from Reports of the Public Accounts Committee up to December 2007 and

noted the under-mentioned points to follow up -

1. in relation to the "Report on the Property Plan" it was noted that Mr. D. Flowers, Director, Property Holdings Department, had been considering methods of enabling more efficient use of office space among States departments. Concerns were raised regarding the suitability of certain buildings for conversion into office space; the methods used in order to assess whether a building had reached the end of its useful life; and the saleability of property in the current financial climate. It was agreed that this matter would not be pursued until the release of the property report by Property Holdings. Following the suggestion that the Waterfront Enterprise Board (WEB) should come under Property Holdings, it was also agreed that the Comptroller and Auditor General's (CAG's) report into the corporate governance of WEB, which was due to be published shortly, could link into any hearing that might be held by the Committee on the subject;
2. with reference to "Comments on Ministerial Decision MD/TR/2007/0057: Review of the Public Finances (Jersey) Law 2005", it was noted that Senator T.A. Le Sueur , Minister for Treasury and Resources, intended to bring an amendment to the Public Finances Law to the States in 2009 and that this would provide an opportunity

for the Committee to consider any other possible amendments to the said law

in due course;

3. in relation to the financial accountability of Overseas Aid Commission funding,  it  was  agreed  to  recommend  that  the  re-constituted Committee should pursue the matter;
4. with  regard  to "Comments  on  the  report  of  the  Comptroller  and Auditor General on the Jersey Financial Services Commission", it was noted that alignment of the strategic plan of the Commission with the operational management plan had been delayed. There had also been a delay with the delivery of an effective IT strategy. The Committee considered  that  communication  with  all  stakeholders  needed  to  be improved and examination undertaken by the Committee as to how the Commission was funded;
5. in  relation  to  the  grant-making  procedures  of  the  Economic Development, Education, Sport and Culture, and Health and Social Services  departments,  it  was  acknowledged  that  the  CAG  would receive a copy of the internal audit programme at the beginning of 2009 and would keep the matter in mind; and
6. it  was  agreed  that  relevant  figures  should  be  requested  by  the Committee in relation to the management of sickness absence within the  States  of  Jersey,  and  that  the  report  given  to  the  Corporate Management Board in May 2008 would be followed up.

Consideration was then given to the Committee's under-mentioned reports of 2008, as outlined by the Chairman -

1. P.A.C.4/2008 – Report on the Accounts of the States for the year ended 31st December 2008. The Committee was of the opinion that the points raised had been partly covered by the amendments to the Business Plan and would be addressed by the CAG's programme, and should therefore be followed up on an ongoing basis following each report from the CAG;
2. P.A.C.3/2008 – Report  on  MD-PH-2008-0020 – 26.03.08 – St. Helier Yacht Club surrender and renewal of lease. It was agreed that this matter should be discussed at such time as a hearing was held with Mr. D. Flowers, Director, Property Holdings Department;
3. P.A.C.2/2008 – Report  on  the  States' £35  million  expenditure reductions. It was agreed that the Committee should carefully observe any  reductions  in  expenditure  to  ensure  that  these  were  genuine efficiencies;
4. P.A.C.1/2008 – Comments on the reports by the CAG on the Public Employees Contributory Retirement Scheme (PECRS) and the Teachers' Superannuation Fund (TSF). It was considered that such pensions should not be unduly generous in comparison with those in the UK and that a capital value should be put on the pension scheme.

The Committee then received an oral update from the Chairman regarding the under- mentioned current projects -

1. it was noted that a joint project between the Committee and the CAG was  underway  to  carry  out  a  review  of  States' insurance  by  an insurance expert;

2. it was agreed that a hearing should be held as soon as possible into the level  of  support  being  received  by  the  Director  of  Strategic Procurement, Ms. C. Hastings, from the Treasury and other States Departments. It was agreed that the Committee should write to the Director to request a progress update, with copies to Mr. B. Ogley, Chief Executive, and Mr. I. Black, Treasurer of the States. The Acting Clerk was directed to take the necessary action;
3. it was noted that the CAG would undertake a review of the Health and Social Services hospital staff organisation chart;
4. work was reported to be ongoing in relation to the amendment of the Public Finances (Jersey) Law 2005 and the associated expansion of the remit of the CAG;
5. it was agreed that the Committee should await the findings of a report by the CAG regarding the corporate governance of the Waterfront Enterprise Board before discussing whether other matters in relation to WEB should be considered by the Committee. Having declared an interest, Advocate A. Ohlsson did not participate in discussions in relation to this matter;
6. the Committee noted that tenders would be invited for the bus service contract in 2009 and would need to be examined by the Committee to determine whether value for money was being achieved;
7. it  was agreed that  the Committee should  continue  to  observe  the manner in which the States handled IT projects; and
8. the  Committee  established  that  the  implementation  of  Generally Accepted  Accounting  Practices  (GAAP)  as  the  basis  for  financial reporting by the States would continue to be monitored.

The Committee recognised that this was its final meeting as presently constituted, and therefore considered the structure, administration and approach of the Committee to date, as well as its relationship with the CAG.

1. Concern was expressed regarding the size of the Committee, and it was agreed that it should be reduced by 2 persons (one member of the States and one non-States-member) resulting a reduction in quorum to 4.
2. Initial consideration was given to forming a sub-group or sub-panel and the  appointment  of  a  dedicated  officer  to  support  the  Committee, however, this matter was deferred for further discussion when the CAG was able to be present.
3. With regards to the Committee's relationship with the CAG, it was acknowledged that, while the Committee provided comment on the reports of the CAG, it also compiled its own reports and suggested matters for the CAG to investigate.

Historical child A4. The  Committee  received  an  oral  report  from   Deputy  R.H.  Le  Hérissier abuse concerning  budgetary  control  in  relation  to  the  ongoing  historical  child  abuse investigation: investigation.

budgetary

control. Concerns were expressed regarding a perceived lack of budgetary control, however 839/41(9) it was agreed that an investigation could not be carried out at present because of possible pending prosecutions. Instead, it was agreed that the Committee should

write to the Chief Officer, Home Affairs Department, to ask whether he felt that financial protocols were in line with recognised standards and whether financial directions were being followed in relation to the enquiry.

The Acting Clerk was directed to take the necessary action.

Vote of thanks. A5. The Chairman extended her thanks to Deputy J.G. Reed in his capacity as

Vice-Chairman, and to all other members of the Committee for their contribution; and members reciprocated.