Chairmen's Committee - Approved Committee Minutes - 13 March 2012

Present

Deputy T.A. Vallois, President

Senator S.C. Ferguson,

Deputy J.H. Young

Deputy K.L. Moore

Deputy S.W. Pallett, (representing Economic Affairs and Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panels)

Apologies

Deputy S.G. Luce , Vice-President, (off-Island) Deputy J.M. Maçon, (ill)

Absent

In attendance

Mrs. K. Tremellen-Frost, Scrutiny Manager

Ref Back

Agenda matter

Action

1.  Minutes of previous meetings

The minutes of the meetings of 7th and 8th February 2012 and of Part B  minutes  of  7th  February  2012,  having  been  approved,  were accordingly signed.

2.  Panel Activity Reports These were noted.

07.02.12 Item 9

510/1(68)

3.  Medium-Term Financial Plan (MTFP)

The  Committee  recalled  that  it  had  previously  given  some  initial consideration as to how the Medium Term Financial Plan (MTFP) could best be scrutinised. The Committee also recalled that it had originally considered the feasibility of Panels undertaking some initial work on areas within their individual remits, producing short papers by way of outcomes  and  submitting  these  papers  to  two  Sub-Panels  of  the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel.

However, following some reflection, the Committee considered that the establishment  of  two  Sub-Panels  would  not  be  appropriate  and considered  the  following  as  a  more  appropriate  and  realistic methodology:-

• Each Panel would hold briefings with relevant Ministers and Departments. This would be prior to the lodging of the MTFP so would require Panels to respect the confidential nature of the briefings and related papers;
• Each Panel could hold a hearing after the lodging date of 3rd July 2012 by way of a public follow-up on the private briefings. This would need to be completed very soon after lodging due to the  number  of  subsequent  States  meetings  prior  to  the Summer Recess;
• Each Panel should consider the following:

1. The business cases put to the Treasury;
2. The budget for each area of responsibility within the

respective Departments;

100. Any further bids above current levels with reasons for these;
     4. The risks to specific services should the budget not be provided;
     5. Invest to save mechanisms;
     6. Access to central contingencies;
     7. Cross-Departmental areas.

• Each Panel would prepare a brief paper outlining its findings which  would  be  forwarded  to  the  Sub-Panel  of  Corporate Services which would comprise one Member per Panel;

• The  Sub-Panel  would  consider  all  cross-cutting  matters  to identify  whether  there  had  been  appropriate  cross- departmental communication and to identify whether services could be adversely affected in any way.

Having  agreed  the  principle  of  the  above,  the  Committee  gave consideration to timings. Noting that it would not be feasible for Panels to complete their individual work until possibly the end of July when the States recess started. Noting that amendments would be due to be  lodged  by  11th  September  and  considering  the  difficulties  in arranging meetings and hearings during the States recesses due to absences of Panel Members, Ministers and Departmental Officers, the Committee considered various alternatives.

Given that the timing posed a particular threat to any Scrutiny of real merit,  it  was  agreed  that  the  President  would  request  the  Chief Minister to defer the debate proposed for 23rd October 2012 for at least two weeks. This would provide Scrutiny with the opportunity of undertaking some work at the end of July and at the beginning of the September  with  some  Panels  undertaking  some  work  during  the summer recess as their circumstances determined.

TV

514/19

4.  Ash Disposal Review: Environment Scrutiny Panel

The Committee noted the scoping document and Terms of Reference for a review by the Environment Scrutiny Panel into Ash Disposal. The Committee was advised that a thorough review of this was essential in order to raise the knowledge of States Members prior to the debate on the matter.

The Committee noted that the review would be undertaken around any Panel review of the Medium Term Financial Plan and the Officer resource available to the Panel.

In respect of a possibility of a claim that the Panel Chairman had a perceived conflict of interest to his previous rôle as a Senior Public Employee, the Chairman advised the Committee that he had no such conflict of interest.

516/32

5.  Introduction of Tasers Review: Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel

The Committee noted the scoping document and Terms of Reference for a review by the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel into the introduction  of  Tasers.  The  Committee  considered  the  rôle  of  the Connétable s on the Panel given their involvement in policing matters. The Committee agreed that there was no direct conflict in this regard. It

also agreed that this review would be undertaken around any review of the Medium Term Financial Plan.

510/1(69)

6.  Scrutiny-Executive Relationship

The Committee considered an excerpt from a Minute of the Education and  Home  Affairs  Scrutiny  Panel  in  respect  of  some  concerns pertaining  to  the  practice  of  Scrutiny  Chairmen  conducting  regular informal  meetings  with  Ministers.  Although  the  value  of  such opportunities was recognised, there had been some concern expressed that the Chairman's position could be compromised if the relationship were  to  become  too  "cosy".  That  Panel  also  commented  on  the importance of keeping Panels fully informed about the outcome of such meetings.

The Committee noted that if the meeting with the Minister pertained to Scrutiny a Scrutiny Officer should be present to keep an independent record  of  the  meeting.  Through  that  means  information  would  be reported back to the Scrutiny Panel.

The  importance  of  separating  independent  Members  work  from Scrutiny work was stressed as was making it clear to others in which capacity a Chairman or Member was operating.

510/1(71)

7.  Legislative Scrutiny

The Committee considered a suggestion by the Minister for Home Affairs which he made at the Scrutiny briefing to all States Members that an appropriate time for Scrutiny to consider draft legislation was when it was forwarded for Human Rights Compliancy.

The Committee was mindful that it did not wish to delay the debates on draft legislation, but equally was cognisant that legislative Scrutiny was within its terms of reference.

Consideration was given to communicating with the Law Draftsman about the status of each piece of legislation, however, it was agreed that the President would discuss this matter with the Chief Minister and  request  that  the  Chief  Minister  advises  Ministers  to  factor  in sufficient time for Scrutiny of draft legislation.

TV

510/1(5)

8.  Code of Practice for Scrutiny Panels and Public Accounts Committee

It was noted that considerable work had been undertaken on updating the Code of Practice for Scrutiny Panels and the Public Accounts Committee in the past. However, the Code still required updating due to inaccuracies and lack of clarity.

The Committee was advised that a Sub-Committee of the Privileges and  Procedures  Committee  had  been  formed  to  consider  the Machinery of Government. It was also advised that there were many concerns  in  respect  of  over-prescription  within  government  and  a suggestion was made that the Scrutiny resources, both financial and manpower could be put to better use elsewhere.

Noting that further consideration of webcasting could result in the requirement for amendments to the Code of Practice, the Committee agreed to defer this matter.

9.  Work Programmes of Panels and the Public Accounts Committee [PAC]

The Committee noted the status of ongoing and planned work by each of the Panels and the Public Accounts Committee [PAC]. In respect of the latter, it was also noted that the PAC would be following up on all recommendations  made  in  reports  issued  by  the  Comptroller  and Auditor General.

The  need  for  good  co-ordination  between  the  Corporate  Services Scrutiny Panel and PAC was noted.

12.12.11 Item 17

510/3(5)

10. Newsletter: Scrutiny Matters – reminder of dates

The Committee noted the dates for distribution of the newsletter.

07.02.12 Item 10

510/1(70)

11. Inclusive Scrutiny Meeting: topics for discussion

The  Committee  agreed  to  remove  the  newsletter  from  the  draft agenda and to replace this with webcasting should the work of the focus group be completed by that date.

It was agreed to ask all Scrutiny Members if they had any matters for discussion.

KTF

510/1(45)

12. Hearings and briefings : written documentation for Panels and Public Accounts Committee

The Committee considered the number of occasions when witnesses attending hearings and/or Departmental Officers briefing Panels had, on arrival, presented the Panel with a very large amount of written documentation.

The Committee considered that, in order for the hearings and briefings to be beneficial for all concerned, all written documentation should be forwarded to the Scrutiny Office well in advance. The Scrutiny Office should advise witnesses and officials of this when inviting them to Panel  hearings  and  briefings  and  advise  of  a  date  by  when  the documentation would be expected.

KTF

13. Future meetings

The Committee noted the following meetings:

21st March 2012: 1.00pm – 2.00pm, Blampied Room: all

Scrutiny Members 24th April 2012: 9.30am – 11.30am, Blampied Room,

Chairmen's Committee