Chairmen's Committee - Approved Committee Minutes - 13 November 2012

Present

Deputy T.A. Vallois, President Deputy S.G. Luce , Vice-President Senator S.C. Ferguson

Deputy J.H. Young

Connétable S. Pallett

Apologies

Deputy J.M. Maçon, Deputy K.L. Moore , Deputy J. A. Hilton

Absent

In attendance

Mr. T. Oldham , Scrutiny Officer

Ref Back

Agenda matter

Action

1. Minutes of previous meetings

The minutes of 8th and 23rd October and 2nd November 2012, having been approved were accordingly signed. The minutes of 25th October 2012 would be amended prior to approval at the next meeting.

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2.  Minutes  of  joint  Chairmen's  Committee  and  Council  of Ministers meeting

The minutes of the joint meeting with the Council of Ministers on 4th October 2012 were approved and signed.

In relation to these minutes, it was noted that the issue of being able to undertake more reviews was due to a lack of time available to Scrutiny Members rather than to a lack of officer resource.

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3.  Shadow  Boards  and  Ministerial  Boards:  approval  by  the States [P.170/2010]

It  was  noted  that,  in  accordance  with  P.170/2010,  the  Public Accounts Committee, the Privileges and Procedures Committee and the relevant Scrutiny Panel should be consulted about all proposals to establish any Ministerial Shadow Boards to ensure appropriate oversight of the proposals.

The Committee noted that PAC had recently received one such proposal and had agreed that such matters fell outside the remit of the PAC. It would consequently be bringing a proposition to the States to amend P.170/2010.

It was expected that such proposals should still be referred to the relevant Scrutiny Panel.

PAC

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4.   Price  Waterhouse  Cooper  [PWC]:  possible  charges  to  be incurred for attending on the Public Accounts Committee [PAC]

It  was  noted  that,  in  the  absence  of  a  Comptroller  and  Auditor General, in order to undertake its work on the Annual Report and

Accounts,  the  PAC  had  called  PWC  before  it  to  give  a  private briefing. As this necessitated a visit from the UK, PWC advised PAC that  a  representative  would  be  coming  to  the  Island  on  2nd November anyway. Consequently PAC had identified a time to meet them on that date to avoid any additional travel costs. However, PWC brought forward its date to come to the Island to visit Treasury but did not advise PAC of this.

Subsequently, the cost of one and half hours preparation and one and half hours for attendance on PAC had been included on an invoice to Treasury to the cost of £1,200. It was unsure whether this sum included travel to the Island.

On consideration of the matter, the Committee agreed that it should not pay for any travel expenses as had PWC advised PAC of its change of date, it would have identified a time when PWC had been on-Island to hold the briefing with them.

It also agreed, that, in view of the fact that PWC was attending on the PAC to discuss a management letter which they had prepared, payment for one and half hours preparation time was unreasonable and would not be met. As PWC had, infact, attended on PAC for one hour,  the  final  agreement  was,  therefore,  to  pay  for  one  hour's attendance if so requested.

Noting that the sum was still with Treasury, PAC would await the outcome of further investigations into the situation.

PAC

16.10.12 Item 5

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5. Chairmen's Committee Expenditure

It was agreed that a sum of £1,500 should be made available should any Scrutiny Members wish to attend on-Island conferences relevant to the Scrutiny function. Such expenditure should be considered by the Committee prior to expenditure to ensure its relevancy to the Scrutiny function

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6. Budget Statement 2013 review: Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel

The scoping document and Terms of Reference for a review by the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel into the 2013 Budget Statement was noted.

08.10.12 Item 1

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7. Medium Term Financial Plan

The Committee noted some concerns about the processes used relating to the MTFP and the lateness of documentation received by the  Scrutiny  Sub-Panel.  It  noted  that  the  Corporate  Services Scrutiny Panel, under which the Sub-Panel had been formed, would be inviting the Sub-Panel to meet to evaluate the review.

CSSP

23.10.12 Item 1

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8.  Population  and  Migration  Review:  Corporate  Services Scrutiny Panel

The Committee queried the timing of the review given its recent approval by Privy Council. It was noted that the Panel had believed that the approval would not have been given before January as, if it had, it would have undertaken a review earlier. However, it was noted  that  the  Sub-Panel  was  reviewing  the  Regulations  in preparation for the debate on this Secondary Legislation in 2013.

The Committee also considered the merit of a fact-finding visit to the Isle of Man scheduled to take place at the end of this month. There was a view that the relevant information could have been acquired by  means  other  than  a  visit  requiring  the  use  of  public  funds. However,  it  was  accepted  that  if  the  visit  were  a  follow-up  on previous communications, there may be some merit in "face-to-face" dialogue.

9. Panel Activity Reports

The Committee noted the Panel Activity Reports.

10. Financial Report – 3rd quarter

The Committee noted that third quarter financial report.

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11. Access to Executive information in a timely manner

The Committee gave consideration to the difficulties created by the late receipt of documentation from the Executive. There was a view that  policy  issues  were  "flushed"  out  too  late  and  that  Scrutiny needed to be involved much earlier in the policy formation process, not  necessarily  to  undertake  any  work  but  to  be  au  fait  with developments. There was an expectation by the States Assembly that Scrutiny would review a number of matters in preparation for debates, but the late sending of documentation didn't permit Scrutiny to undertake these in a timely and therefore, thorough fashion which could result in delays to debates which frustrated the Executive. The receipt of late documentation also gave a feeling of exclusion and made the system adversarial which led to a lack of efficiency. There was some concern expressed about active intervention in policy development  by  Scrutiny,  as  this  would  compromise  Scrutiny Members once they came to reviewing the matter.

Consideration was given to Scrutiny being used beneficially as a "sounding board" in "real time". The Committee was reminded that Scrutiny was mandated by the States to base its work on facts and evidence  and  that  using  Scrutiny  as  sounding  boards  may encourage personal and subjective views to be put forward. It was noted  that the  Scrutiny  Office  had  been  established  to  fulfil  the function as mandated by the States in 2005; to support evidential- based reviews not personal or political views of individual Members or Panels. Should there be the requirement of the function of the office to change it would need to be as a result of a States decision to change the system.

In respect of access to Green and White Papers, it was noted, that as a result of the joint meeting between the Chairmen's Committee and the Council of Ministers, a Working Practice Note was to be devised by end October 2012. It was also noted that the Minister for Treasury and Resources had indicated that the programme of work for the next two years would be provided to Scrutiny prior to the year end 2012. The President would follow-up on these matters at her next meeting with the Chief Minister.

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12. Research Student

The  Committee  noted  that  the  President  had  received correspondence  requesting  the  possibility  of  a  student  currently

undertaking the Social Sciences Degree Course to undertake some work shadowing within Scrutiny. The Committee was advised that such  requests  are  received  by  the  office  quite  frequently  but unfortunately the students are generally only available during States recesses or at intermittent times during the week which did not lend itself to a beneficial learning experience.

The Committee agreed that it could only consider such placements if the students were available during working hours for a block period during non-recess times. The President was to revert to the author of the request.

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13. Scrutiny Members meeting

Noting  that  the  next  meeting  for  all  Scrutiny  Members  was scheduled for 21st November 2012, the Committee queried whether there were any matters which required all Member discussion. It agreed to invite all Scrutiny Members to suggest items for discussion and if none were forthcoming, to cancel the meeting rather than to hold a meeting "for meeting's sake".

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Future meetings

18th  December  2012  9.30am-11.30am  –  Chairmen's  Committee meeting, Le Capelain Room.