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STATES OF JERSEY
Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Quarterly Hearing with the Minister for Home Affairs
THURSDAY, 22nd MARCH 2012
Panel:
Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour (Chairman) Connétable M. Le Troquer of St. Martin Connétable S.W. Pallett of St. Brelade
Witnesses:
The Minister for Home Affairs Chief Officer
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs
Also present:
Mr. M. Haden (Scrutiny Officer)
[14:00]
Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour (Chairman):
If I can just begin, under the new protocols adopted by Scrutiny, I am obliged to read the following. First of all, of course, welcome to the Ministers, Assistant Minister and the Chief Officer from the department and members of the public and the media who are attending this hearing today. If I could draw everyone's attention to the new Code of Conduct for members of the public that has been displayed on the wall. First of all, all electronic devices, including mobile phones, should be switched to silent. The taking of visual images or audio recordings by the public will not be permitted. If a member of the public wishes to eat or drink, we would ask them to kindly leave the room. Finally, I would ask that members of the public do not interfere with the proceedings and as soon as the hearing is closed to please leave quietly. Also, members and witnesses may wish to make themselves available but any communications should take place outside of this building. Also for the sake of the witnesses, may I confirm that you have read and understand the witness statement, which is before you? I also make it very clear that filming or taking of images will only be permitted during the first 5 minutes of this hearing and afterwards we will ask that such things cease. For the sake of the stenographer and the transcriber, I will just ask all Members to introduce themselves. I will begin. I am the Chairman of the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel, Deputy Jeremy Maçon of St. Saviour , and to my right is
Connétable M. Le Troquer of St. Martin :
Constable Michel Le Troquer from the Parish of St. Martin .
Connétable S.W. Pallett of St. Brelade : Constable Steve Pallet, St. Brelade .
Mr. M. Haden, Scrutiny Officer: Mike Haden, Scrutiny Officer.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I am Senator Ian Le Marquand, Minister for Home Affairs.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
Senator Lyndon Farnham , Assistant Minister for Home Affairs.
Chief Officer:
Steven Austin-Vautier, Chief Officer for Home Affairs.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Good afternoon and welcome. We very much would like to, first of all, begin by thanking the department and the Minister for all the information that we have received before this hearing. It has been very useful in getting our panel up to speed with the issues that are facing the department. Given that we have had this request, if I can slightly change the order of our question plan and go to our questions on financial reporting. Minister, we did receive the briefing paper from the department which we do appreciate was received under confidential status. However, we will refer to certain section of it going forward if that is okay.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, obviously we have probably given you some information which is work in progress but I do not think there is much in there that would be difficult, is there?
Chief Officer: No.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes, that is fine
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Okay, we just wanted to check.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, when it is work in progress and we are thinking about it then it is obviously more difficult.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Yes, thank you. So I first want to begin with the panel notes, the underspend of the £1.3 million and so can we ask what was the final outcome of those issues?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It is written down here but Steven would know it in his head.
Chief Officer:
It is £1.536 million, which is 3 per cent of budget.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Yes, so how were the underspends achieved?
Chief Officer:
In 3 principal ways. Firstly, we have had slightly more income than anticipated in 2011. We have had fee levels rise, particularly in the Customs and Immigration area. The second major way is on what I would call contingency savings with the
Comprehensive Spending Review in mind. Some of the later savings measures rely on being able to make a scaling down of staff. Clearly, if we wait for those savings to kick in later, you cannot easily shed staff. So if we get opportunities where staff leave, we have to take a judgment as to whether we can keep that post or those posts light and in many cases we have done that to make sure that next year we can make the savings on 1st January. So planned staff savings in summary. The other thing is that the department does keep a contingency. It has got an unallocated part of the budget which we do not allocate at the beginning of the year to services. That is a sensible step in case we get incidents in the year, the classic being, I suppose, fires and the like where we would have to quickly bolster the fire service's budget in that instance. So we keep some money aside for that, but we had a light year in terms of unplanned for incidents so, fortuitously, we have been able to carry forward that sort of money into 2012. So those are the 3 main areas.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, the other thing, I think, that needs to be said is that the underspend figure is never a genuine underspend figure because they are always hidden away in their projects which were meant to happen in a particular year but which were not completed in that year. In the old days when I was Chief Officer, it was logical to place an order before the end of the year for something. That was okay if you had not paid for it. We have also changed so that things like that do not come into that particular year. So there is always inevitably expenditure which has been deferred to the next year. But the truth of the matter is that all the departments are going to find that the 2013 targets are very difficult to achieve and so what we are effectively doing is by accelerating forward savings where we can and by holding down expenditure now, we are building a buffer which will enable us to see through the 2013, provided we are able to keep our carry forwards. In relation to that, the crunch - well then, of course, it will be 2014 - but with a number of projects, it is a timescale achievement which is the difficulty so we have been acting very prudently in terms of trying to store up money for the future.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Thank you. You have touched on planned loss of staff. Can you expand on which areas of the department you think that they will come from?
Chief Officer:
Well, I have mentioned that but the principal one already is in the prison we are attempting to make savings by really an overall scaling down in the size of the prison, and the way of achieving that is the means that is being taken to the States at the moment to provide the legal means to get rid of people back to their own country who are serving prison sentences in Jersey and also to change the relationship that we have with the U.K. (United Kingdom) over prisoners serving sentences here, which the Minister can expand on if you want him to. But clearly the saving is not in the prisoners going, in the sense that all we would really see saved there is food and laundry for those prisoners. The saving is really on scaling down the whole of the prison so that you can reduce the size and reduce the staff numbers, thereby saving salaries. That is where the real saving is.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
So can you confirm or deny that there are no planned reductions in the number of policemen?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is my reserve position. In reality, if we are going to meet the target that sat with the department, and which is part of the targets of the Council of Ministers, if other things fail, then what they come down to always is numbers of policemen. That is the final bottom line. Have we got any plans, numbers within 2013, 2014 or are we just
Chief Officer:
Do you mean savings-wise?
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
Chief Officer:
There are some savings measures that involve reductions in staff. They are more associated with, for example, if you take the Criminal Justice Unit or the Criminal Justice Department, for example, substituting for uniformed officers with civilian staff in order to make the overall cost of providing that service cheaper. I am not aware of planned reductions in frontline staff.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
There are some proposals which would seek to replace full officers with civilian workers, particularly in areas of transport of prisoners and security and so on, although we have had some difficulties in relation to those proposals and the view that Mike Bowron takes is that if a person does not need to use a warrant card, they do not need to be a full officer and there may be potential for savings.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Can I just touch on the Customs and Immigration service. We note from the previous work of the panel that the service may argue there is a shortfall in certain aspects of the manpower that they have. We also note the loss of the intelligence analysis which was made from the C.S.R. (Comprehensive Spending Review) cuts, I believe, last year. Can you please tell us if there are any further planned staff cuts in this area?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, there are not. What happened in relation to Customs was that they were in a position to offer some savings early. So what happened with them is they felt the full pain, if I can call it that, of the 2013 level earlier than other departments, but I do not think there is any further staffing cuts there. So it is unfortunate but they just were in a position to offer savings in some areas earlier than other departments but the key savings were the intelligence officer and also one person in the transport section. That, we found last year, led to a situation where the backlog started to get too unacceptable and great and then we brought in a part-time member of staff in the summer period in order to alleviate that.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
One of the key risks that came through fairly prominently in several cases in terms of attempting to turn the C.S.R. savings, certainly with the police, a phrase that is used quite often is: "Projected savings will not be met without impacting on level of service offered." Where do you think the level of service may be affected?
The Minister for Home Affairs: For Customs and Immigration?
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
No, for the police service because that is something that is mentioned here, or do you think that the service can be maintained at the current level with the savings that are being used?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I do because frankly the police service is running much better now than it was a few years ago.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Do you think it has got a more co-ordinated approach and the new police chief is ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It is running much more efficiently. A whole number of changes have taken place there. The thing with the police force is that it is a peculiarly flexible organisation because your actual P.C. (Police Constable), your ordinary PC - if I can call anybody ordinary in the police force - has the potential to be deployed anywhere and, unlike most civil service things where people are deployed to do a specific job, that is a difficult description, it is difficult. If there is more work in another section, they take them there and put them there. In the police you have constantly got that ability to move people around to a spot. So if there is a need for more effort in terms of road safety or indirect safety, financial crime, you can put more effort into that.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
But Minister, if I may interject, you have just told us that you perceive civilianising more posts within the police service so presumably that option will be less available to the police force?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Obviously that is right, yes. If you civilianise, then people have specific roles and you do not have the same degree of flexibility. That is absolutely right.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Do you think it is worth saying that risks are risks? They are there to be managed. When we are doing business planning, it is a good discipline to flag up the risks. Does not mean to say they are going to come to fruition. The idea is to manage them out or deal with them as effectively as possible.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Home Affairs Ministers are not meant to talk about risk, of course, but the reality of the situation in a number of areas that we are involved in is that one has to make an assessment as to what is a reasonable and acceptable level of service. One could never provide for all eventualities in a small jurisdiction because we have the difficulty of not having a neighbouring force that we can call on immediately and so on and so forth. But at the end of the day, you have to make a balanced assessment as to what is going to be a sufficient level to enable the thing to run effectively. It is a judgment.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I am concerned about manning levels. I think maybe not this year but probably in the next 2 years in terms of any savings that we make, the vast majority of the money that is spent by the police is on officers. So to meet any further C.S.R. cuts, I am not pressing you on it, but do you see any further cuts in officer strength?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Quite possibly. The difficulty is that we have got an area of over half a million in our targets, 614,000 off the top of my head, which was meant to be produced by a combination of various different things. Initially, I was being urged to agree to make a savings of £1.614 million in this area but simply did not believe that was feasible and took a very conservative view but, in fact, it is still not clear where those are going to come from. In reality, we can see some savings coming from that. Some of those require changes in the court system which takes a long time and requires legislation to be drawn up and so on and so forth. At the end of the day, it is an issue where if we arrive at a point where I do not think I can run Home Affairs effectively with the total savings which I have previously indicated, then obviously I will be going back to my colleagues on the Council of Ministers and saying: "Sorry guys, cannot do it; we cannot maintain what is in my view an acceptable level of service and make these savings."
[14:15]
But we have not arrived there yet and we have the extra buffer as I have indicated to you of the carry forwards which should push the crunch issue into 2014.
Chief Officer:
We have reviewed all the areas where Customs and Immigration and police have a similar role, for example, on surveillance, searching and that sort of thing and on aspects of training and all those ones have been looked at and we have made savings where there is any obvious area of duplication. So we are trying to iron out all those obvious areas before you go anywhere near reduction of staff. It is worth making the point on this and I know it is not lost on you because you asked it before. In services were staff costs are 80 per cent and 90 per cent of the fire service, if you are stripping out £3.6 million like we are over 3 years, you are going to get to people eventually. What you have to do is try and minimise the impact on the service in doing that.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
But has it already got there with Customs and Immigration to the point where the service offered, for example, at the harbour in terms of searches, is not at the level it maybe could be?
Chief Officer:
No, because all we lost from Customs was one passport manager and the intelligence analyst post. None of the frontiers in terms of staffing levels are affected.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Customs and Immigration would say, and there is some evidence in support of this, that they are really one person position down than where they should be and I accept that. I think that is probably right. Where the pressure manifests itself is the ability to maintain customs checks everywhere at the same time as also maintaining immigration checks. Now, fortunately this year, we have a situation where the boat company is changing its method of operation, and one of the problems we had was where boats are coming from France and going on to the U.K. and we were simultaneously having to try to run immigration checks for people coming into Jersey and immigration checks of people going on to the U.K. because we are the first port of call in the common travel area. That action posed particular problems. That does not seem to be happening this year at the moment on the schedules and so there is issue there, which is more positive for this year but we cannot say that next year we will not go back into the same position.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
If we can just press you, you talked about the change of police roles to civilian roles. Can you give us any indication of how many that will be?
The Minister for Home Affairs: It is 2 or 3 in the
Chief Officer:
In the C.J.D. (Criminal Justice Department) it is but in total, not here and now, but I can provide you with that if you want it.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
May I also add one of the benefits that are seen from converting police roles to civilian roles is that it can free up police officers that are carrying out those duties to be utilised in frontline duty if necessary.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is true. That is a good point but it is not a frontline thing anyway.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
We have got police officers, for example prisoner transport, that could be carried out, perhaps could be outsourced, and those police officers are freed to ensure that levels are maintained.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
The pension does not come from the Home Affairs budget so those officers that are now retiring from C.J.U. (Criminal Justice Unit) or C.J.D. or whatever, I am not sure of the new title they have got.
Chief Officer: C.J.D.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
C.J.D., so those officers okay they cannot be used on the civilians now so you are paying the wages of a civilian but the pension money that they are getting is coming out of the pension fund, not out of the Home Affairs budget.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, but the money to go into the pension funds comes out of the Home Affairs budget. What you are saying is that the actual pensions are not paid out of it because they are paid out of the fund. I cannot remember the name of the specific fund. No, it is P.E.C.R.S. (Public Employees Contributory Retirement Scheme) you are right. But the point I am making is that the pension costs in terms of contributions into the fund come out of our budget.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
For future contracts then, should police officers work older in different roles but we are paying out I mean okay I benefited from it because I had to retire but I was quite happy and I am working longer hours now than I did in the States Police, but why do policemen have to suddenly go at 55?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Well, of course, that is exactly it. If one is able to civilianise a role, then some of the people who may be quite capable of doing that are retired police officers.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Are you finding now that there are more police officers wanting to if you are going to retire on two-thirds of your wage, you are going to go, are you not? You have got this thing that it is a big carrot, a big incentive to go if you are going to get two-thirds of your wage for not working.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I do not know what the patterns of employment are on that but it is clear, they get to buy some time, but there is potentiality there.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Something you said earlier on if you can pick it up. The police force is running much more efficiently now.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Is that new management and not only is it the new management, what was the problem that you think that it was not running efficiently?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
There are a number of things that have had to be organised but you can see just by the fact that we have got a Town Centre Unit operating and doing things that no one was doing before that there is more being achieved with the same number of people. I am struggling to remember the precise other areas in which this things have been restructured. Yes, what has tended to happen is we have moved to a more shift-based system so whereas they tended to be specialists out in different areas, we have now absorbed that into the shift system. When I took over, there were meant to be 8 community officers. There were about 3 so the system was just breaking down. Effectively what we have done is trying to make community links with a particular shift and try to correct the system in that kind of way.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
When we are talking now for appraisals or assessments and senior officers, the Police Chief has an assessment, does he, from yourself or who assesses the Police Chief's performance or who will be now?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is done by the Chief Executive with input from myself.
Chief Officer:
That is right. All Chief Officers and the Chief Executive Officer have a PRA, we always have monthly meetings with the Chief Executive where we report on progress on our own priorities for the year and then that has ministerial input at the end of the year.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I have got the wrong Chief Officer with me today, so he will have the detail you are talking about.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
When you spoke as well about providers, difficulty with providers, maybe like the prison van service and that, is that because the legislation would have to change to give them powers?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
The new Police Force Law includes provisions in it, if passed by the States, which allow more use of substitutes in a brighter way as it is possible to give to individuals policing powers or limited policing powers within a particular geographical area or whatever. So, for instance, if we are thinking about port security, the ability to give to port security officers policing powers within the court ambit obviously is an important part of having a proper system.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Is that then a reassurance then say to the Honorary Police that the new Police Force Law that is coming in is not a way of appointing Special Constables because if the Police Chief as they have got special in the U.K., that is right. Could the Police Chief now start appointing Special Constables if the new legislation comes in? Would that be the intent or is that part of law specifically aimed at Magistrates Court van drivers?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, it is specifically aimed at the courts and the van drivers. I cannot rule out that there might not be other things in the future. I cannot rule out there might not be a successful plan for prioritising custody sweeps within Police Headquarters because that has happened elsewhere. It is not a current proposal but that is another example of where there is potential.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
I think you can see the Honorary Police looking at the legislation and thinking is that a back door into the Chief Officer wanting Special Constables in Jersey as well as the Honorary Police?
The Minister for Home Affairs: No.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
It is definitely not. So you can find political favour from the Assistant Minister but
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I should prefer for Honorary Officers because we do not have to pay them.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
The other thing I have got here about user pays as well. Has that been progressed as a source of income? We are talking about how much you are trying to save so all these functions and again you can see the Honorary Police become the free service and they just could not cope with the amount of events in the Island with the States charging user pays. I know that has been discussed previously, I think.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Well, there are many difficulties in that. The legislation, I believe, allows the scheme to be put in place but there were problems in relation to how to operate that scheme which led to my having to withdraw a proposition. The basic problem is over the issue as to who determines what level of policing is necessary for any particular function. If the Police Chief is going to say: "We need to have 20 officers here and you must pay us for them", that creates a potential problem and there is a need to try and create some sort of a appellant system but to whom are we going to appeal in relation to the issue as to what level of policing is required? There is no other police force to appeal to. That was the practical difficulty I ran into but the law contains a provision which would enable a move in that direction but needs to be from memory, I think it requires regulations which the States would need to approve.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Just a quick question. You spoke about there were not very high figures spent at special events. What about we have got a Royal visit coming up. What about the murder? How did that the 6 murders up until that kind of special fund or is it out of
Chief Officer:
For cases for investigations, we have a court case cost provision and the police well, it was last year, of course, they managed to contain all the costs for last year within the provision they had, including the 6 murders.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
We managed to get an increased provision for the part of court and case costs which related to exceptionally large police investigations and that went into our budget but as Steven has said, last year, apart from the dreadful we call it a murder case but we do not know. It can still come to charge so we must be careful what we call it but from the multiple deaths case, it was a very quiet year generally that enabled us to run that within the budget allocation.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
I think the only other thing I would say is that the lesser amount of officers out on the street, the lesser amount of drink drivers arrested, the less public disorder arrested and then the figures from the annual report a lesser crime figure in the Island or there are less drink drivers. There are obviously going to be less drink drivers this year if you have got less policemen out on the street. So I suppose the Chief Officer is always in a situation unless something goes really wrong, the figures are going to look better each year with the less officers you have got policing it.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Some of the figures are not susceptible to that because some of the figures are based upon complaints, numbers of complaints of the sort, and so on, and therefore that is an objective measure. You are quite right. There are other areas where the amount of crime discovered will, to a certain extent, depend upon the level of policing. Drink driving would be an example although, of course, you will get a certain percentage of cases resulting from accidents or members of the public reporting in cases.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Just noting that we have only got your Chief Officer for a short amount of time, if I can just move on to the red-rated C.S.R. projects scheduled for 2013. The first one we would like to ask about is that the accommodation for the Customs and Immigration Service, the proposed transfer to the Elizabeth Terminal we understand will now not proceed. So how will the proposed savings in this area be achieved?
Chief Officer:
The original plan was connected to Harbours re-providing accommodation at the Terminal but those plans predated the incorporatisation so their plans have now changed and, of course, Harbours are looking for ways of doing things more cheaply so they effectively shelved that plan. That left us with a hole to find £100,000 rental saving. The plan now which we are working on actively is Customs and Immigration will shrink down into a smaller area of accommodation within Maritime House.
[14:30]
That will relinquish spare accommodation for other departments to use and reduce the rents. It will not make £100,000. It will probably make around £50,000. But the other £50,000 we think will probably be made up by reducing the budget because we have got extra income coming in. So at the moment, we are still planning to make the £100,000 saving but not by the same means.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Can you explain which other States departments you envisage moving in or sharing Maritime House?
Chief Officer:
That is really a question for Property Holdings. I am not sure what their overall plot is but they are managing it.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
It is quite a prime location, rather nice down there among the marinas so there will probably be some demand for it, I would have thought.
Chief Officer:
Yes, I would imagine so but I am not sure who they have got lined up, but effectively a floor will be freed up.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Okay, thank you.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I was just going to say, moving on to a slightly different subject, printing of passports in the U.K. I know there has been some difference of opinion, if I can put it that way. Has the issue been resolved about where you are going with it at the present time?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, it is quite a difficult area at the moment. It is a difficult area because the U.K. has changed its position recently on what they will allow us to do and this may well lead to high level representations being made by Jersey, but we are not happy with that.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Was there a thought there may be some loss of independence by going to a U.K. passport system?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, Lyndon is very much an advocate of maintaining the existence do you want to comment on that?
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, first of all this was an issue taken up by the Constitutional Review Group, I think, which was established under the old Policy and Resources Committee, somebody correct me if I am wrong, and they were set up to carry out a study of what would be required should we decide to consider independence as an alternative. One of the things identified was being able to produce a passport for our own citizens. It is quite important, it is quite fundamental to that process. Now, for logistical and financial reasons, first of all, I can say the printing of passports is quite a profitable operation for the department and there was some concern to save money because a new passport, biometric passport, would require some capital investment in new machinery we should perhaps give it to the U.K. to do it and I think handing it over to save money is completely the wrong reason. It is a profitable business model so I am sure if we took a medium to long-term view, any new investment in equipment could be offset over a business plan over a period of time and we could retain that facility ourselves. It also provides meaningful employment to people over here, keeps control of our own production, and also you do not have to look too far back, or every 3 or 4 years there is some enormous disaster with the passport service in the U.K. and I think it would be unfair on our system to thrust them into that. Also we see once it goes, it might be that to get it back would be rather difficult.
The Connétable of St. Brelade:
Did you also see a risk as well in delays with passports?
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes absolutely, we offer a superb service. At the moment the logistics of it mean we get caught on the hop sometimes in the height of the season when the demand shoots up, but I think they have addressed that now by utilising part-time staff, so in the busy period we can produce more passports. An argument that was put forward well, we have all got 10-year passports so we have got plenty of time to get them renewed but, with the best will in the world, there is always an instance where people forget to renew it. It happened to my family. We were just about to board the plane and our passports but we do offer a superb service and I would like that retained for our citizens.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Minister, you talked about problems emanating from the U.K. which would affect our passports. Are you able to expand on these?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think I can, yes. We thought we were going to be offered a number of options and, in fact, we are looking at the various costings to see what the differential costing was going to be between buying a set of equipment to ourselves or jointly with other Islands and maintaining a printing facility locally. That is what we are talking about. There is no issue in relation to having Jersey passports issued by the Lieutenant Governor. The issue is as to where they are printed, whether they are printed by a contractor in the U.K. or whether they are printed locally which requires all the special gig because these are very high tech things. So we were at the stage of looking at the rival costings on the assumption that we had the options but, in fact, what has now happened is that the U.K. has indicated to us that they do not want us to have the option of printing in Jersey because they want to centralise the functions of printing not just for Jersey but for all the outlying British territories, which apparently have total populations of 10 million. They want to centralise those in one production place. Now, as I say, I have raised this issue with my colleagues, not the whole Council of Ministers but the Chief Minister and others and, indeed, a report has been produced by Immigration which I will need to take up next with my colleagues as to what view they take, and it may well be that they will want to make representations to the U.K. that this is not satisfactory from our point of view.
The Connétable of St. Brelade:
But it is not something that is going to be forced on us by the U.K.?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Well, at the moment, the U.K. are attempting to force us, is the position.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
Well, we might need advice but we do not believe that they are in a position to do that but that is the position we ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Well, I am sure about that. It is a very complicated constitution which has got to do with the fact that passports are issued on behalf of the Crown and so hence why Jersey's Lieutenant Governor has historically issued them. Obviously, I need to get the reports and papers to my colleagues and instigate discussions, but it is not going to happen for a few weeks and we will see where we go from there.
The Connétable of St. Brelade:
At what stage was this highlighted? Has it been something that has been ongoing for a
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, it has been very recent, A very recent change of policy which was notified to my people within the last fortnight. Yes, I think it is last week now.
Chief Officer:
Yes, probably slightly longer.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Maybe 3 weeks. Yes, we thought that we were going to be given the option so we are working on the basis of preparing to compare the options. Lyndon is right that we do make a profit from the passport production, that is correct. The reason we do that is because the charge is standard right across the British Isles. It is not set by us. It is set effectively in the U.K. what the level of charge is. But we are running our budget on the assumption that we are going to make that profit. If we do not have that profit, we have to make savings somewhere else. That is the hard reality of balancing the books.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
And staff for that, at the moment, you spoke about staff in the Island. How many staff did you say
Chief Officer: Four.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
You employ temporary staff if you are overloaded?
Chief Officer:
Four but we take on a temp in the summer, yes.
The Connétable of St. Martin : But your basic passport support?
Chief Officer: Yes.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs: Full-time equivalents.
The Connétable of St. Martin : You could lose 4 jobs.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
We could possibly lose 2 because there would still be an element of administration but, just to be clear, I am absolutely opposed to it. It would be a sad day for Jersey if we had to give that process up in my opinion, just to be clear where I stand.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
I should have chased it before when it was said about the Customs Department being squished effectively into a smaller space. Can you expand about how is that to be achieved? Are they using too much at the moment?
Chief Officer:
It is generous, to be fair, because there is also a circulation area in their current accommodation and they could reduce, yes.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Okay, thank you.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
If there is a change in the police stations that the new Police Headquarters build, the police control room remains with the police or is the ambulance and fire service control room could be made into one, 3 departments into one?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I am not sure about that. The police will certainly have their own control room. There have been talks about joint control rooms for a long time.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
That is one of the question we were going to ask. That has not happened, has it, the merger of the control room with the fire and ambulance service?
Chief Officer:
No, sorry, Assistant Minister, did you want to
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
If I may. I had informal discussions with the fire people and I asked some of the questions. This is something that has been on the agenda for probably 2 or 3 years now but it has been identified that I would not say significant but savings could be made by combining the control of the fire and ambulance service, not the police, but at the moment there are so there is possibly an opportunity with the relocation of the police station to carry this out and free up space for people where the fire service is or where the ambulance service is for other use.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Might that then, going off the subject slightly, but will there not be an opportunity then rather than to rush through and I am not necessarily saying it is being rushed through the move of Police Headquarters next to where it is going to go to, the car park site, to put it somewhere where the 3 services could be put together and it would make the control room possibility a much better option.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
We would probably need more expert advice on this but, in my opinion, the emergency response of the police is quite different to that of the fire and ambulance service and I do not know if the control room
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Yes but it could be done for the one control room as it is done in the U.K.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
I would need advice on that. I certainly think it is more feasible to operate a fire and ambulance from one control but we would need advice on whether police as well.
Chief Officer:
I think it is right to say it could be done from one place but there needs to be a lot of detailed work for the reason the Assistant Minister said about whether it saves you anything because the fact is fire and ambulance is a dispatch control room but the police control room does lots of other things.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Well, the only reason I just want to get into the subject is that if we are going to move the police station from where it is to a new site, obviously at some stage the fire service is also going to need to move as is the ambulance service, I presume to, as we say, to free that up for housing or whatever. Are we not missing an opportunity here to put them on one site? That is what I am getting at? Is that
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, even on previous plans to build the Police Headquarters as opposed to the police station on the Summerland site, they were still going to be separate. In fact, what happened was the police went one way and they went the other way. I think we are getting too technical on this. The trouble is that if you are not careful, you end up almost with a duplication because you end up with one person taking all the calls and then have to pass them on to another person to field them for a particular organisation.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I think what I am trying to get at is there is a desperate need for a new Police Headquarters. I think we all understand that.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes, there is.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
But I am just worried that maybe looking at that particular site, that there are issues around it I think that they are not fully exploring in terms of the location and maybe we are tending to push this forward very, very quickly. I know there have been moves to push it on as quickly as we can but are there not some times you just need to step back and have a look at the overall picture?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, I do not think the issue of combined stations is relevant at this stage because it was not going to happen under any of the proposals.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
All right, the issue of where the police station is going then. Presumably it is still along
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, the issue is where the police station goes obviously, as you say, is right but obviously being able to centralise both the headquarters and the station on one site has
advantages. All the other plans we were looking at before were going to preserve 2 distinct sets of premises.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
But before we jump down into the issue of the new police station, just quickly we note from your briefing paper that it appears that the Health and Social Services Department no longer wish to participate in the merger. Can you explain why this has happened?
Chief Officer:
Yes. It is not because it was going to be called Fimbulance. No, nothing to do with that. No, I think it is important to realise that this project, which was a managerial merger of fire and ambulance, again it predates what is currently happening in Health with the major modernisation. For about a year ... well, in fact, through the second half of 2010 and 2011, Health were participating in the research of this and they were fully involved but the fact is that they had a change of heart towards the end and there were a few reasons for that. I think number one was the project they now have about restructuring the whole of the health service is now preoccupying their time and it is a much bigger goal than just maybe reorganising what happens with ambulance.
[14:45]
Secondly, there was the effect on the staff; they started to think about how the staff would fit in to restructuring with the fire service. Then, thirdly, they had concerns over the interrelationship between accident, emergency and ambulance if it was operating within a fire service. There are certain clinical governance considerations around that and when they put all those 3 together they thought it was not the right time to go ahead with this. But it was never an operational merger of the 2 services; it was simply - and in fact the saving you will see is about £114,000 - to trim the managerial side down and join together the back office functions.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
Was it logistical? It was of logistical benefit?
Chief Officer:
Yes. It was not to make fire fighters into paramedics or vice versa; it was never that.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
May I just comment, just give my view on the comment the Connétable of St. Brelade made earlier? With my limited knowledge (I am fairly new to this role), I do not believe there is anything of extra benefit by locating a police service with an ambulance and fire service. A police service is a very different type of service. There is more to gain from putting all of the police under one roof than there is merging the 3 together, because as the Minister said, you can end up creating a bigger issue. But I do firmly believe that there can be some good logistical benefits of
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I was not necessarily merging them, I was more saying one site rather than relocating them on the one site.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, all right. I will change the word "merge" to "relocate".
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
I appreciate that you are going to have to ...
Chief Officer:
Do you mind, Chairman, if I depart?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
I do mind but appreciate you have got some mouths to feed, so we understand.
Chief Officer:
If there is anything pressing I can stay for a few minutes if you want.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: We will contact.
You will cope?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
We will contact through the officers if there is anything which the Minister is not able to answer.
Chief Officer: Thank you.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
The one question which we do have for you, Minister, on this issue is then if you are not going to be able to make this particular saving; where is this saving going to come from instead?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I do not know. I mean we are working on a variety of different things but at the moment I do not know.
Chief Officer:
There is one that we have asked to be relieved of because we are quite happy to go ahead with it and I think the department feels that it is not one that we have pulled the plug on. So to be left with £100,000 saving as a result of that is, in our view, offside.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Are there any other of these cuts which you are not entirely sure where you are going with?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I mean, we know that there will not be savings in relation to closure of the Young Offenders' Institution. There is work in progress to seek to transfer more of the youngsters who are serving sentences in the Young Offenders' Institution to serve their sentence at Greenfields but that will increase costs for a period, not reduce costs.
We are looking to absorb that saving. It is not one that we are declaring a red card on.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No. We have been working on a whole number of alternative savings within the prison service but they are still very much work in progress and we are still setting which ones are feasible and which ones are not. Obviously we will let you have details once we know where we are on that. The C.S.R. process is just instead, we are constantly looking to make improvements in savings and run things more efficiently and improve the service, et cetera, et cetera, so if one area closes down then we try to look for other areas.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Although of course your department is currently compiling all the work for the medium-term financial plan of which this type of information will have a significant impact.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, very much so, because the medium-term financial plan being a 3-year plan, of course we will take aboard 2013, which I said we are buffered to a certain extent if we can keep our hours okay, of course. But 2014 and 2015, well we probably will not be buffered, so that is where the rub is, the road, as they say.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Sorry, you were going to ask something?
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
No, I was just on another potential save and that was the outsource of prison transport and the courses you were running. Do you see that as an achievable saving?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
There are difficulties with that because it has been identified but there is no noted efficiencies in the security arrangements in this building, which need to be addressed, and recently a report was produced on that by a specialist which is being looked at by
the judges and the court users so that is not the right phrase for it. There is a sort of court liaison group. We put the treasurer on notice of the fact that there is likely to be additional capital costs in improving the security arrangements here.
The Connétable of St. Brelade : Who is that, Walker Palmer(?)?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It was compiled by a policeman on another force but I cannot remember which.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Did he take all the areas that you mentioned here in terms of ... I mean it was not just prisoner transport; obviously there is court security as well. Obviously carrying prisoners to and from the prison, but it also mentions F.M.E.s (Force Medical Examiner) as well. Was that an area that he commented on as well? Sorry, the Force Medical Officer, was that another issue because it has been grouped ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, that is a separate issue. No, I mean he just reported basically that the safety of his custody suites, the Magistrates Court and the Royal Court.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I only say that as because it does mention in here that there is a possibility of having those 3 things - the court security, prisoner transport and the F.M.E.s - provided by the one service operator. Was that not something that you see happening?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, I do not see that happening. I mean it might happen but I think it is not likely to happen. I mean, the Force Medical Examiner's issue is an issue that we have a perfectly good service at the moment. It is quite expensive and so we need to try and find a cheaper way of doing that. Now a possible cheaper way is by going out to tender to medical practices and seeing what happens. Another possible cheaper way would be by having something link in to other medical services. I mean, access to doctors who are being utilised for other purposes.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
But is there a risk - I know from dealing in the Magistrates Court as you have spent many years is that by doing that, by not having dedicated ... well, they may be dedicated medical examiners but those that are not experienced, that, for example, reports do not arrive on time - that would have been one of the main risks for me - but they are also expert witnesses in court at times as well and that sort of experience may well be lost. You see there is a danger by sort of outsourcing that to a ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Well, we have to make sure we have an acceptable level of service. That is the point. It is not just a question of any old service will do; it is supposed to be an acceptable level of service. I think the difficulty with concepts of outsourcing to large companies which do lots of things is that that may work in the U.K. where they have got a lot of organisations, but it does not work terribly well in Jersey because they are probably looking at the same pool of people anyway.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Well, then getting back to that, presumably that saving I know is one that is marked as amber but is it one that you see is going to be a difficulty to meet?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It is not clear as to whether we will achieve it or not but obviously we will continue on that; that is why it is marked as amber. It would be red if we knew we could not do it, it would be green if we knew we could.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Do you know how many F.M.E.s there are?
The Minister for Home Affairs: I am afraid I do not currently.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Are they separate ones for the prison?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think historically it was provided by one firm, but the more recent operative in the Magistrates Court probably know better than I do.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
How are the F.M.E.s selected then? Are they
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is a good question. I do not know the answer to that. But this is why we are looking at the arrangements and seeking to produce a satisfactory arrangement a bit more cheaply.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
What about the Compensation Court? I mean drink drivers used to have to pay doctors' fees and there was talk last year or the year before about the court imposing costs on the offenders in court.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes. There is another project which is being done in relation to court matters. We currently have a lady whose name is escaping me, seconded from the police force to watch over.
The Connétable of St. Martin : Is that Helen?
The Minister for Home Affairs: Helen?
The Connétable of St. Martin : Helen Miles .
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Helen Miles , yes, thank you, Helen Miles . Yes, it was a peculiar one because it was raised in the days when I was Magistrate and in terms of various different aspects of costs being raised, the difficulty was that it was never put to the court as a formal case or formal application so a decision could be made. You are absolutely right that historically, in the old days, before we had breathalyser machines and so on, that it was standard when people were convicted of a drink driving case that if the doctor had been called out to examine them or to take a blood sample, that they were charged costs in relation to that. Because what happens here in relation to drink driving is that normally it only happens now where the machine has malfunctioned and that may make it slightly more difficult to say: "Well, the machine has malfunctioned, we are going to have to call a doctor, therefore you are going to have to pay." But it does not say we should have a machine it works properly.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
I think probably half or maybe more would have thought from experience that those that blow between the limit the acceptable or the lawful ...
The Minister for Home Affairs: I would be expecting the 40s.
The Connétable of St. Martin : The 40s.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Say 40 to 50.
The Connétable of St. Martin : Forty to 50, yes.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
The Connétable of St. Martin : So they get the option.
Yes.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
But if they then take it to court and are convicted the Island, the taxpayer, pays for that.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It is a matter for judicial decisions. What should be happening is that possibly you should be putting forward an application to the court and the court deciding whether that was an appropriate order to make.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
The other one of course is interpreters. There must be a suitable amount of money ... I know there is at Parish Hall level for interpreters and I am not sure about the court.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It is a human right particularly in a criminal court.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
It is an increasing figure, is it not, not because costs are going up but because there is more foreign nationals before the courts. There is no doubt about it. It is the same in Parish Hall ; it is not a secret. There are more Parish Hall inquiries than there ever were with foreign nationals attending, in all languages.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I cannot see you would be able to charge for interpreters at a criminal thing because it is a human right to have the availability of an interpreter if you need one.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Yeah, the ratepayers are paying for the inquiry level and the taxpayer are paying the court.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Just before we move on, do you have any more questions from the C.S.R.?
The Connétable of St. Brelade : No.
The Connétable of St. Martin : No.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Mr. Minister, do you find it quite, I would say, shocking for you to turn around and say that you do not know where some of your savings are going to come from and that you acknowledge that some of them you may not even make, which I am sure we will come back to at another stage?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I do not find that shocking at all, because we were asked to commit to a certain level, so I committed to £1 million less than I was being asked to because I did not believe we could achieve that. We are still very much work in progress on this. Now it so happens, because of the use of underspends, we have probably bought ourselves another year in which to arrive. But let us be honest about it; to make the level of savings of £65 million, which was initially proposed, is painful. It is quite clear one department is going to massively fail to reach that, namely Education. It was a States decision in relation to that which absolutely ensures that but this is not an easy thing for any department to attain.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
If we can now move on to the establishment of the Police Authority. We note that once again the debate has been delayed in the States. If we can just ask you then what time frame do you have in mind for establishing the Police Authority?
Well, I think, there is not a delay in the law. It is because of parallel law which is needed, which in fact the 2 Connétable s can tell you more about that than I can.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
We have had discussions, yes.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
But it is the parallel law which is needed so that the policing powers and operational police officers of Connétable s are removed. Now this action caused me delay in lodging the law in the first place but it became apparent that an amendment was required. The law in relation to Connétable s did that. It has been something that they have wanted to do for a long time. At the same time they attempted to make a provision which would change the arrangements of the role of the Chef de Police in certain circumstances, and that has proved more difficult than they first anticipated. From my point of view I wish they had not put that in the same law because it has held it up but I am assured by the Chairman of the Comité des Connétable s that they are very close to being able to lodge. Now, if they can lodge before a certain date in early April we can still debate them both on 15th May. If they cannot then I will have to re-lodge my proposition. But in the eventuality, as you know, I was going to bring amendments to the law for the reason we previously discussed. I hope that we briefed you on the other set of amendments that were going to be needed. Have we done that?
[15:00]
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
I do not believe we have had that yet.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, okay well then that will happen as soon as we have got the draft there but, in fact, there was a spot in the same provision that was in the previous law, which had been omitted from this law at a very early stage of the drafting which we need to put back in again.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Can you just explain to us what that provision is?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, it has got to do with issues of who people sue if something goes wrong. The ball has always been that if a police officer commits a tort during the course of his work then it is not the Minister who is sued, it is the Police Chief. But we need to have provisions in there to ensure that if people are sued that people are going to be paid. So it is a technical thing to ensure payment.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Can I just ask the amendments that we have asked for; can I just ask where in the stage of drafting they are?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
They are virtually finished. I think we are at the stage of writing the report on that. If it had not been for the difficulty of the timescale with the Connétable s' proposal we would have been rushing things this week to ensure that I could sign off a Ministerial Decision to lodge that in order to have the timescale starting on that. But in fact, because we are fairly clear that that is not going to happen, it is much better for me to lodge a consolidated proposition which will include those in. So that is why we have not been rushing.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Just for the benefit of the members of the public and the media, those amendments were just to clarify the relationship between the Authority and the Chief Officer and the Minister?
The Minister for Home Affairs: That is absolutely right, yes.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Thank you. So moving on to the mechanics of how the Commission will work. How will members of the Commission be selected?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is set out in the law. The Minister appoints the chairman and then the Minister and the chairman act together and appoint the lay members. The States elect 2 States Members. Now clearly, in relation to situations like this, although the Minister appoints there will be an independent process involving the Appointments Commission to ensure that we get the best person. But whether I will sit on an appointments board together with others or whether I will stand back from the process and simply decide whether to accept recommendations, we have not yet decided.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
So the protocols are yet to be drafted?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes. It is in the law but how it works it out in practice we have not yet finally determined. But on issues like this we heavily rely upon advice from the Appointments Commission as to what they think is the appropriate way forward.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Then, when you have decided on the protocols, will they be published? Will they be a public document?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
They would not normally be, no. If the board says who appoints the process in relation to how that happens, it tends to be worked out in private. It is no different from any other appointment. If you think about all the millions of different appointments which take place; the process is not publicised in each one of those. There is nothing secret about it; I expect I will be asked questions by the Scrutiny Panel, if not in the Assembly, as to what process we have taken. In fact I will be enjoying the debate.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
One would hope so. Can I ask ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Thank you for notice of that; I will be better prepared.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Yes. Sorry, do you want to ask ...
The Connétable of St. Martin :
The Authority oversees the work of the States of Jersey Police. Who oversees the Honorary Police, because the 1974 law suddenly becomes the Honorary Police Force Law; a change of title and are they just a free agent?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
You are taking me outside of my area of responsibility, because I do not have responsibility as to who oversees the Honorary Police. I have a view on that, as to what the correct structure is and provided a paper to the Connétable s some time ago, which I do not know if you have seen, in which I expressed the view that the role of the Connétable s and the Chef de Police essentially would, in my view, for most practical purposes mirror the current role of the Minister for Home Affairs and the Police Chief. I think the Connétable s will have the oversight role in relation to the Honorary Police. But exactly the same sort of proof of situation will apply in relation to operational matters, because obviously if this operational policing matter had been conducted by the Honoraries, that is an operational policing matter. But policy in relation to the policing, it seems to me, will mean a matter for the Connétable s to determine in consultation with the Chef. It is not my area of responsibility.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
No. We are in danger of having a further 12 police forces, unless it is the Comité des Connétable s as a joint body. If we have got a Connétable and a Chef de Police in each Parish deciding to go their own way, we have got 12 different police forces.
The Minister for Home Affairs: That is what we have, yes.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
That is what we will have yes, and then the States Police ...
The Minister for Home Affairs: That is what we have always had.
The Connétable of St. Martin : ... who will answer to an authority.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, there will not be any difference really to ... I mean, that could happen now, could it not? But in practice it does not.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Can I say that the working party which I set up, or advisory group which I set up, to advise me in relation to aspects of the Police Law, which had a fairly broad spectrum of people on it, did look very seriously as to whether a police authority could have oversight in relation to the Honorary Police and decided - and certainly the Chefs were very much against this - but in fact we came to accept this and the reason for that is because of the role of the Connétable s. Essentially the Connétable s will, I think, remain the oversight for the Honorary, certainly in individual Parishes. Now, whether by co-ordinating together through the Comité des Connétable s, they can produce a common policy which will apply, that is a matter for the Connétable s. But other complication is the role of the Attorney General. Now historically the Attorney General has been seen as being the titular head - whatever that may mean - of the Honorary Police Force.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
And also the arbitrator, I think, of any dispute.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
For some purposes he is, yes. But of course you have to bowl with the Centeniers, which is what I call the junior prosecutors, because there clearly, as junior prosecutors, the line of command has to be for the Attorney General, because they are acting on his behalf essentially, in terms of bringing prosecutions. So you have got an area there which is the prosecution role which is not under the ambit of the Connétable and is not or could not be under the ambit of the Police Authority because the Police Authority could not be overseeing the prosecution process, that would be quite wrong. So you have to split that up in one direction.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
And not under yours either, as Minister for Home Affairs?
The Minister for Home Affairs: No, no it is not.
The Connétable of St. Martin : So it is very ...
The Minister for Home Affairs: It is not.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
It is difficult and dangerous at the moment, I think; a dangerous situation that could develop or an area of concern. Let us not say dangerous, but you know ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think that the Comité des Connétable has got to look at issues of policy. Now there is no reason why individual Parishes cannot have individual policies in terms of what the Police Authorities are in that Parish. You may have one Parish where a missing priority is representative, so to speak, of a particular stretch of road and the Honoraries will regularly deploy to do that and that is fine if the States of Jersey Police are not able to do it.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
It is not so much the day-to-day running and policing events, though, is it? It is the policy. Who takes the policy forward for 250, nearly an equal-size police force if you put all the Honorary Police Officers numbered together compared to the States Police, you have got similar figures and you have got the titular head being the Attorney General, who has got more than enough and only certain things brought to his attention. He does not ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It does not work effectively. It works in terms of prosecution stuff but it does not work in terms of setting policy. That is why I think in the individual Parishes that the policy setting role would remain with the Connétable s. That is my view, in the same way as the policy-setting role ultimately remains with the Minister for Home Affairs.
The Connétable of St. Martin : The debate will be interesting.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Could I just make something clear? If there are any further delays in the current miscellaneous provisions, do you still see that these laws have got to go hand in hand? You cannot ...
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
So if there are any further delays now, it is just going to knock the law back even further?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Well, it is frustrating that what is delaying it is that part of the law which does not relate to my law. It is a part which has been bolted on as the second objective which the Connétable s had. The part that relates to my law is the Connétable s ceasing to have operational policing powers. The problem I had was I was advised that I could not take the law to the Privy Council with the Connétable s continuing to have operational policing. Because remember the way that this law has been structured, not only does it create a new law to deal with States of Jersey Police but also it amends the existing law to do with the Honoraries. So I cannot just do the one, as I say.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I think you will probably be aware that the main issue I think around this revolves around the role, the Procureur, where, I think in a very short period of time we have tried to resolve those issues. Obviously in terms of your law, you have had plenty of time to evolve. Do you think or maybe not that the possible Miscellaneous Provisions Law has not being totally thought through and it has maybe been rushed rather than the right consultation being taken?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I could not comment on that. That is a matter for the Connétable .
The Connétable of St. Brelade : It was worth a try. [Laughter]
The Connétable of St. Martin :
But you are aware that it is not the Comité des Connétable s delaying it now, because the Connétable s are ready to proceed, are they not?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, it is and it is frustrating. My point of view is the part of that law which I need is not the bit which has been causing delay. That is why it is frustrating to me.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
If I can just go back to the Police Authority; has thought been given to the type of qualities that will be required for members sitting on that Police Authority?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It has to a degree. I mean obviously Steven wrote some interesting notes on this but obviously the ... it says: "The first profile competency set for membership is yet to be formalised but attributes are likely to include integrity, sound judgment, ability to assimilate detailed reports and information, a grasp of the police's role in modern society, appropriate motivation for the role, e.g. maintenance of law and order, interest in the efficiency of the force, and understanding of the public's concerns, et cetera." It is a pretty good piece of work that Steven has knocked up there, because that is the first time I have seen that. I think it is pretty obvious as to the attributes and I may be able to get you one or 2 more.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Thank you. Perhaps you do not have a way over this but what do you think their initial priorities are going to be from the Police Authority.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Well I think that their priorities are to ensure that the police put into affect the Annual Policing Plan and the decisions on priorities and, what is the word there?
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs: Capabilities?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, no. It is not principles. Sorry, I have lost the word policies. Yes, policies and priorities. Their role is to ensure that the police put those into effect in an efficient way. The setting of priorities, obviously with advice and input, from the Police Authority and from the Police Chief, remains under proposed system with the Minister ultimately.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Thank you, and we note that from the response to the previous Scrutiny Panel report on the succession planning, a lot of the issues of succession planning will also rely with the Police Authority. Can you just explain how that is going to be achieved?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Well, we are doing rather well at the moment in terms of potential future senior succession planning because we have a number of very capable young officers coming up through the ranks and are now implementing appropriate training and opportunities for them.
[15:15]
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Although that has happened without the Police Authority existing.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Absolutely, but for that to be feasible you have to have people of the right quality.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
No, but I think in fairness the Police Chief has been working to actively identify and bring on young people. I think there is a new approach to it, in fact, one of the young promising officers just been selected for ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, one of our officers finished in the top 80-odd in the entire U.K. and outlying places and therefore has earned a place on the Strategic Command Course, is that the right name for it? The second officer finished in the next 80, so may well qualify next year so may we qualify next year.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
So there have already been 2 potential local Chief Officers identified for the future.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Yes, but Minister, the question I am asking you is that in your response to the Scrutiny report, it said that a lot of these issues of succession planning will be mocked up within the Police Authority and I am asking you how they are going to be mocked up in the Police Authority given that you have not stipulated police succession planning as one of their priorities?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It is very interesting because the law says it is a priority of the Police Chief. It is one of the duties of the Police Chief under the draft law which was written in to ensure succession planning.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
Does the law also say it is the responsibility of the Minister to ensure the course is fit for purpose as well which a ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Well, it is but because it is a duty of the Police Chief it has become a duty of the Authority to ensure that he is doing it as in a duty of the Minister to ensure that the Authority are ensuring it is.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
I am not sure if I recall but at some stage you say that you were not aware that future chiefs, if they had gone up through the ranks and had to spend a time in the U.K. serving with the U.K. force which was a previous stipulation, has that gone now or ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Oh absolutely. That was an absolute nonsense, in my opinion.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
It was prior to your time, I accept that.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I was quite amazed; this came out of the very helpful Scrutiny report, which was produced by the previous panel, which I agreed with except for one area where they had got it wrong in my view, but what happened was they obtained a copy of the report produced by a former police chief back in about 2004, in which he detailed the history of that and it was quite apparent that a previous defence committee, I think it would have been. It might have been even before the first Home Affairs committee, had made the decision that anybody who was going to aspire to the top ranks would have to have had these 5 years experience off the Island. It was completely unrealistic. What happened as a result of that - I will call it - 2004 report was that that was reduced to 2 years which is equally unrealistic because what you need is you need a programme of training and a programme of secondments but you do not need a fixed period off. It is a question of building up the necessary experience and so on.
Of course the strategic command course is, in my view - this is why I did disagree with the previous Scrutiny Panel - an essential issue in terms of the chief or the deputy.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Then the final question which we have got here is that we note in the report that there is £100,000 for the budget of the Police Authority; can you explain how the department meets that figure and is that sufficient?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It seemed to tell me it was the requirement of a secretariat for the Police Authority to provide back-up for it. I think it is a pretty round figure at the moment and, again, Steven would be better-placed to tell you precisely what he has in mind in relation to that but that is a notional figure. There will be running costs. There will need for it to be a secretariat. Now, there is going to be an issue as to who provides that secretariat as to whether, in fact, the advice and linkages provided by the Home Affairs Department, or whether it is necessary to set up a completely separate agency. At the moment, I think, we are tending towards the Home Affairs Department providing the secretariat for it. The structure I have got is I have 2 chief officers, Steven Austin- Vautier is the Chief Officer for Home Affairs other than the police and the Police Chief is the Chief Officer for the police. We have now established for a start this year that they are each accounting officers for their own area so the Police Chief is now the Accounting Officer for the police and Steven Austin-Vautier is the Accounting Officer for the rest. So there does not appear to be a reason why, if advice and counsel is needed by the Police Authority, they should not seek that from senior people within the Home Affairs Department, rather than, as it were, creating almost a separate office with a separate department just to provide that.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Looking at the figures for the 2 Chief Officers; they are very similar in numbers, the total employees and they are very similar probably in the cost, I would have thought, because most of the cost is on salary anyway. But does it create a problem for Mr. Austin-Vautier with the amount of departments he has got compared to the Chief Officer who has only got one, because he has got that responsibility ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
If you count the empire of Health and Social Services, one Chief Officer, one Accounting Officer, you think about the empire of Education, Sports and Culture with one Chief Officer. There are other States departments which have wider, more diverse empires.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
I have no doubt he is able to do the job but it just seems so many departments to ...
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
Can I be so bold as to say that we are fortunate to have a very professional Home Affairs service from the Fire Chief to the Prison Governor to the heads of the other departments, I would think Steven's job is made far more comfortable by the fact that those services are extremely professionally led at this moment in time so that makes a huge difference.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I have primed Lyndon to say that. He has been saying that to me as a newcomer coming in and ...
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
I have been surprised at the professionalism, as a new member coming in; straight into Home Affairs, with the professionalism within our emergency services. We are extremely well-served as a small island community.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
I think so, yes. We have seen media reports before where sort of ...
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs: And that is not just since you left.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Things did drop slightly ...
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Just bear with me in time, I wonder if we can move on?
The Minister for Home Affairs: Sorry.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I just want to move on to the repatriation of prisoners. What progress has the Minister made with the extending the relevant Council of Europe Convention to Jersey?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Okay, we are doing pretty well on that. I have been looking this week at the matrix documents, which is setting out how we match up to the requirements of the various different articles of the Convention which we need to finalise. I have one issue that I need further clarity and information on and providing that is satisfactory, then we are pretty well ready to go in terms of making an approach to the U.K. to make an approach to the Council of Europe so we can become parties to the Convention. The great advantage of this is that in one go effectively we link in with all the other European territories which are parties, so we do not have to have individual agreements with Poland, Portugal, Finland, France ...
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
That was really my next question, would that progress to that but that would not be needed?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, we go straight there, you see. This has already happened. Other planners have already done this so it is a well-charted route but I have just one issue that I need to be satisfied on as to what is happening. We are fairly close to being able to lodge the Appointed Day Act as well. Obviously that is being worked on but I need to be clear on one or 2 details so that I can explain how the system is going to work in practice to the States. Obviously, when I presented the law there were various different options but now we are coming down to the joining of the Convention it becomes clearer as to exactly how it works.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Then, given we have heard already that the way the U.K. is reacting with Jersey, do you foresee being able to buy into this matrix and in to the Council of Europe; do you see any hitches there or have you got the relationship whereby you will be able to sign up with not a problem?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, the U.K. have been very helpful on this. I think the fact that Jersey people do not often appreciate the large number of freebies and benefits that we get through our links with the U.K. Going through a controversial area, there are a large number of advantages and benefits that we still get. We may fall out with them over L.V.C.R. (Low Value Consignment Relief) and things like that from time to time but nevertheless ...
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Prisoners repatriated are sentenced in Jersey, and go away; they will be allowed parole then earlier than they would have locally?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That depends upon the system in the relative country.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Likewise, or the other way, if someone comes back to the Island, having been sentenced in another jurisdiction, would they then fall into line with the Jersey release?
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
So they may have to serve longer sentences in the Island if they were local?
The Connétable of St. Martin : Particularly if they are drug-related offences.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That depends on what the system is. The systems do vary and I do not know right across the European countries what all the variations are. I mean some countries like the U.K. allow release on parole up to half of sentence, others may have completely different systems which I do not even understand.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
When you said earlier on at the meeting, the savings at the prison; okay you are saving on accommodation, you could have less staff at La Moye prison but what about all the additional costs? Do we have to escort prisoners away or would they be collected?
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
The Connétable of St. Martin : We would have to pay those ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think from memory it is the sending country that has the costs of sending.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
I was not sure whether we delivered them to the border and then they were taken over from there. It was a portion but I do not know for that list.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I have been looking at the Convention in the last week. I do not think anything in there was different to what I thought before which is that we would pay the costs in sending.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Can you confirm that when it comes to prisoners, it will be for that home jurisdiction to bear the costs for the prisoner within their prison system?
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
What is the current situation between ourselves and the U.K.? Is that the same or are there some special occasions where we bear the cost for English prisoners in the U.K.?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
The general position is that if a prisoner goes back at their own request, then we do not pay the costs but if we send a prisoner over because we do not think we can cope with them within our system then we bear the cost.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Is that a standard cost or I remember we were thinking of Curtis Warr en or something like that which must be, probably, a lot higher cost?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I do not know the answer to that I am afraid.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
It is not the standard though, I cannot think ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Did you ask me a question is there a higher cost for a high security prison as compared with a low security prison?
The Connétable of St. Martin : I do not know the answer to that.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I do not think we will be sending anybody across because we could not cope with them to a low-security prison, so I think we would always be sending to a high security prison in reality, so I think it is probably fairly standard, I would say.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
There are quite a few prisoners who would have gone back anyway because of the length of sentence, surely? Is there a limit in Jersey?
The Minister for Home Affairs: No, there is no limit now.
The Connétable of St. Martin : There is no limit now?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
There is no limit now. Someone sentenced for murder in Jersey with a recommendation of 20 years could serve 20 years in a Jersey prison, unless we felt they were uncontainable within our system.
The Connétable of St. Martin : Okay, thank you.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Are you anticipating any opposition U.K. parties?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, the reverse; all the indications are the U.K. authorities would welcome us changing to unrestricted transfers because from their point of view it is an embarrassment that people who have been sentenced to the same sentence, who might be sharing a cell, are being released under different parole systems. They dislike that, so the information I have got is they want us to change.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
That just reminds me of one thing in the brief, is that you did say a quickest win would be with the appropriate prisoners to England and Wales. Are there any particular reasons Scotland and Ireland are not included in that because obviously we have got prisoners from those jurisdictions as well?
The Minister for Home Affairs: No.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
So it is open to those prisoners as well?
The Minister for Home Affairs: I did not write the brief.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
I think they are possibly a lot more English in the prison at the time the brief was written.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
All right, so there is no specific reason for that?
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
You are right, Constable, it should perhaps have been generalised to U.K.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It would be the U.K. I do not think we have got any prisoners from Guernsey or the Isle of Man, I think it's only U.K.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Okay, if we can move on to the changes to the ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I am starting to get squeezed. I have got 15 minutes.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Fifteen minutes, that is absolutely ... we are working to that deadline, Minister. Can you take changes to the youth justice system, part 6.
[15:30]
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I will start off with the first question that we have got down here which is what progress has the Minister made with this priority initiative in terms of the youth justice system?
The Minister for Home Affairs: The youth justice system?
The Connétable of St. Brelade : Yes.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
There are 2 issues there. There is a draft youth justice policy document floating around. This is part of the work of the Children's Policy Group and as far as my memory goes, that is currently in a consultation phase with the judges and others. Now, in addition to that there is a specific piece of work in a specific project in relation to moving youngsters out of the Y.O.I. (Young Offenders Institute) sentences into Greenfields and that is a subset of that. Policy decision has been made on that by the Children's Policy Group but it is now a matter of the exact form of implementation of that. There is a legal technical problem that we have hit again on that which we are trying to find a way around.
The Connétable of St. Brelade : Can you enlarge on that in any way?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, it has got to do with the mixing together of individuals. Theoretically we should not have people on remand and people who are sentenced together in the same place. In fact we do. We do have it throughout our prison but this could potentially ironically create a difficulty in terms of the wording of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child which we want to sign up to. So we need to have an exemption or a derogation to say that we cannot do that effectively in Jersey. Otherwise you would end up having to split Greenfields into 2 halves, one for those on remand and one for those who have been sentenced. It is very frustrating.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
So it has been an ongoing situation for some time.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
Given the low numbers in youth custody you would have one in one half of the prison going from remand, to send him across to the other side and you would have 2 prisons open for them.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, but that is a matter that keeps on coming back on the agendas of the C.P.G. (Children's Policy Group) so I want to make progress with it.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
There is something that I picked up here in terms of raising the criminal responsibility age; is that something that you are looking at at the moment?
The Minister for Home Affairs: I am against it.
The Connétable of St. Brelade : You would prefer to keep it as it is?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Absolutely, yes. There are technical reasons for that, because frankly in the U.K. they have got a complete system in relation to secure children's homes so that there are alternative routes for youngsters who are misbehaving and at risk and so on and so forth, which do not need to go through the criminal justice system. We have not got a secure children's home in Jersey and we do not have the parallel system. So we need to maintain the rights to arrest young people from the age of 10 upwards simply to bring them into the system; we do not have the alternative systems available. What we are trying to do in the youth policy is try to reduce the numbers of youngsters who are brought in to the criminal justice system in terms of being charged but to lower the age of criminal responsibility will just create a hole in the system.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Well that runs very well into the Honorary Police to some degree because I think we play our part in trying to reduce the numbers that go through court.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Absolutely.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
But in terms of broadening youth detection options, have you got ideas that you have looked at in terms of other options to detaining young people?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is part of the Criminal Youth Policy document. There are issues in relation to trying to have alternatives to custodial remands but that is an area in itself. I am afraid I just do not carry the level of detail in my head on it. It is a policy document that is in consultation and obviously these things are quite complicated because they range across a wide range of bodies.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I know, and you know as well, the Magistrates do their best to find an alternative to custodial remand whenever they can.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
They do indeed.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
I think we will chase this issue up at another time.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
The review of the Licensing Law, can I take that one?
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Yes, please.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Please, just what stage have we reached with the new Licensing Law?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
All right, the Licensing Law strictly speaking is a project of the E.D.D. (Economic Development Department). It is quite clear that there have been different views between offices, between the 3 main departments with an interest in this area; E.D.D., Health and Social Services, and Home Affairs. Those have held up progress in relation to this. Now we had a joint meeting fairly recently in which we found that there was a larger degree of agreement than we expected although there are still one or 2 differing opinions. The next stage is that E.D.D. will produce a White Paper of proposals in relation to the changes to the Licensing Law and we will then see what the views of the other 2 ministries are on that. It is quite a difficult area because there are different aims and goals of the 3 ministries in relation to this.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: What is the timescale?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
They have moved through it pretty quickly.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: The next quarter?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I would have thought the next few months, yes, but it is E.D.D. The reasons for the delay, frankly, have come out as being disagreement at officer levels and frankly I am disappointed by that because if that was so then the issue should have been taken up to the level of Minister and there must really be a date to seek to resolve the differences.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I just wanted your views on - I know we have probably mentioned it before - something like the minimum price of alcohol, ending irresponsible promotions in outlets and pubs and possibly raising the minimum age of purchasing alcohol. Are there any of those things that you have looked at or considered?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think I can say that there are different views from different departments but I think it is now accepted that it is unlikely there will be a proposal to increase the minimum age. One of the areas where there is full agreement is over the minimum pricing type of area; how to most effectively achieve what we want to do which is basically to ensure that there is not very cheap alcohol available from off-licences and supermarkets. That is the major problem in terms of pricing, the promotional side.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Is that something that you have had opposition from the licensing trade on though?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
They are mixed - and Lyndon's gone very quiet here because he has a conflict of interest on this - but they are mixed and you have got different opinions between the on-trade, who will tend to very much support a minimum pricing type of approach and who complain bitterly that there is an inequality of treatment because they are being prevented from having promotions whereas supermarkets and off-licences can have promotions. On the other hand I suspect that the off-licence trade may take a different view. But this is not the key issue, is it?
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
Can I make a comment? I am conflicted because I am a director of a hotel, that is it, no other reason. But as an observation I think it is very sad that the food retail trade all over the U.K. and in the Channel Islands now - it has spilled over - are using promotions on alcohol and tobacco to drive football primarily. When you can go into supermarkets and buy beer for less than you can buy water in small packs I think is a sad state of affairs and it needs to be addressed.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Can I plead stronger than that; I think that is utterly irresponsible and it has got to change and if it is not going to happen voluntarily then the issue is how do we effectively change that?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
I am just very conscious of the time, for all panel members' questions to the end and in the last 5 minutes I always like to open up to the Minister, are there any points which you would like to make to us? Is there anything which you feel perhaps we have got the wrong end of the stick about? Now is your opportunity to deal with that.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, I have been very happy you are doing the Taser. I hope you have got my letter on that.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: We received it today.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, I have just been waiting another couple of days. Obviously there is more information to come from the police and obviously I know that this is a very controversial issue and there are different views and that is why I welcome your doing that. I think it is an absolutely ideal matter for Scrutiny if I may say so with the sort of rigours of that. The police will provide you with more information than I will. What has happened, as I have indicated, we have made certain policy decisions and in the letter I did indicate to you that I was not sure whether you wanted me to go ahead
and lodge a proposition so that you could scrutinise it or whether you would prefer if I held off lodging and just provided a draft proposition as it were for you to scrutinise before lodging it. I did not want to give the impression by lodging that I was ignoring what you are doing because I welcome it. On the other hand, you may want me to lodge so that you know what you are scrutinising.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
I think the panel has decided that we will communicate after this hearing about what you have decided.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Okay, that is fine.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Thank you for that. If you have no further comments for us then may I take this opportunity to thank both you, your Chief Officer and Assistant Minister for coming to us today. We look forward to our relationship with the department.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Thank you very much. Could I just make one comment, which is that if there are going to be - this is no criticism - detailed questions relating to the States of Jersey Police, I need to come with a senior officer, so just as I had Steven to answer some of the more technical stuff on the non-policing side, I need to know that.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
It would have been useful to have that.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
We will bear that in mind in future.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Okay, thank you very much.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Thank you both very much. I will close the hearing. I ask members of the public to withdraw from the room