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Environment Scrutiny Panel
Quarterly Hearing with the Minister for Transport and Technical Services
MONDAY, 11th NOVEMBER 2013
Panel:
Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade (Chairman) Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin (Vice-Chairman) Connétable P.J. Rondel of St. John
Witnesses:
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services
Assistant Minister for Transport and Technical Services
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services
Topics Discussed:
- Traffic congestion Page 2
- Road works Page 7
- Road maintenance Page 14
- Sustainable Transport Policy Page 22
- Parking Page 32
- School buses Page 34
- Smart cards Page 40
- Bus service Page 41
- Taxi regulation Page 46
- Asbestos Page 56
- Ash Page 62
- Scrap yard Page 68
- Phillips Street shaft Page 77 [14:32]
Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade (Chairman):
... then I will begin. Welcome to this quarterly public hearing of the Environment Scrutiny Panel with the Minister for Transport and Technical Services and his team. Thank you and welcome to the members of the public and the media. We are in public hearing mode, as it were. We are estimating this meeting will probably take until between 4.00 p.m. and 4.30 p.m. and we will see how we go. Under the rules for the first 5 minutes the media are going to film us. That is entirely within the rules and we are happy to have that. The agenda before us, there are a number of subjects, and most of them are around traffic and transport, particularly about the current reasons for traffic congestion, what can be done about it, roadworks, road maintenance, sustainable transport policy and then we will also cover briefly taxis and buses. Then we will move on and deal with asbestos and waste and the issues around the scrap yard. So there is a lot to cover there so I should try and be succinct. First of all, introductions. I am Deputy John Young, chairman of the panel. For the record if members can introduce themselves, please.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Well thank you very much. I will go straight into the issue of traffic. Minister, in recent months we have seen a very serious traffic situation in the town of St. Helier when the conurbation has been brought to gridlock on a number of days on a regular basis. Can you tell us your analysis of the reasons for this, whether this is, as it were, a temporary situation where you are satisfied, or is it indicative of a long-term problem with traffic levels in Jersey?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Tris?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
Well I think what it really demonstrates is that the Island's highway networks operate at near capacity and when something adverse happens on an important route which carries a large number of vehicles, the rest of the network struggles to cope. So if you take the tunnel, for instance, it takes, I believe, about 2,000 vehicles an hour in each direction, if you try to fit more vehicles down there than that it cannot cope and the traffic sprays out everywhere and has knock- on effects around the road network. So, that is what is being set out within the sustainable transport policy and the truth is you cannot build your way out of that situation; you have really got to engender behaviour change and get people to use buses, to cycle and to walk.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So you are saying that we are dealing with a road network that has got a finite capacity?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
But there is no scope for increasing its capacity?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
Yes, basically. At certain times of the day, that is right, there is that capacity or close to capacity.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So you are saying this leads us to the conclusion that we have to manage the use of the roads better?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
We cannot build any more roads, unfortunately, so it is managing what we have. Obviously we are trying to encourage more and more people to use 2 wheels and indeed public transport.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
We have been successful over the years. If you look at bus patronage over the last 5 years, we have increased the number of people using the buses between 7.30 a.m. and 9.00 a.m. by 25 per cent. At the same time we have had population growth and other aspects that have put more pressure on the road network. But traffic has been rounded out at a constant level for the last 10 years so we have been effectively getting more out of our road network by tweaking how the traffic lights operate and how the road junctions operate but there is a limit to how far you can take that.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Sorry, can I just ask you to repeat that? So our traffic volumes have increased over 10 years, are you saying that?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
No, they have been pretty stable. Pretty level. Which goes to show that our congestion levels have been relatively stable over those 10 years.
Deputy J.H. Young:
But what about the volume of traffic, is what I am getting at? Population increase, for example, has that contributed to a rise in traffic? It seems logical that it would.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: I will just read you my notes on that if that is okay.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
It would be interesting to know 2 things, Minister, in straightforward numbers. First, the number of registered vehicles over the years and, secondly, maybe more importantly, the number of people who have driving licences because obviously people can only drive one vehicle at a time. Do we have any statistics on the number of licences that are issued?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Yes. Obviously there are some people who have 4 or 5 vehicles but they can only drive one at a time. Do we have the stats on vehicles, Tris? On licences?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: We would have to provide those to you.
Deputy J.H. Young: Okay.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: I do not have them.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So if you can give us an indication of what you have got about the numbers of vehicles on the road. The numbers.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
Okay, so overall traffic flows are stable and a small reduction in peak-flow traffic of 1.7 per cent in the last 4 years has been recorded but we have got to do a lot more to achieve our 15 per cent target reduction.
The Connétable of St. John :
I have got real concerns. You are telling us that basically they are stable. You told us a few months ago when we were debating the police headquarters on the other side of the tunnel it would not be a problem and yet we have a small rockfall, it puts the road out of operation for a couple of months, and all of a sudden we get gridlock. Now surely once we have got a police headquarters built the other side of the tunnel, every time you get an emergency and you have got vehicles coming and going to headquarters, we are going to get gridlocked. Yet, you are telling us that we are stable and there would not be a problem. Are we going to have a problem once that police headquarters is built every time there is a blue-on-blue?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
I am not in a position to comment in detail upon the police headquarters traffic impact assessment. That is being looked at and I do not have it here with me. But my recollection is, what the police have explained, that the response vehicles are out and about on the network the whole time. They do not all despatch from the police station so it is not like the Ambulance Service or the Fire Service where the vehicles are based at a station, then they all go out. With the police they are around the Island at any one time and they will go from their current operational location to where the emergency is.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So what you are telling the panel is that the recent congestion has not caused you to revisit your previous advice to the panel that you had no problems about the police station traffic-wise going in Green Street?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: Yes, absolutely.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
Just to bear in mind, I think that the difficult days we have had in terms of traffic fundamentally are driven by the Mount Bingham issue but also in adverse weather. Our conclusion to that is people in adverse weather stop using other more sustainable forms of transport i.e. motorcycles, bicycles, walking, even catching the bus if they have not got a bus shelter. So what happens is in inclement weather like today we generally get more traffic and more congestion, so it is a combination of both events.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Have you got figures to prove that?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
We will have, yes. Well certainly from my queue in a morning I can tell you it is worse. When I am not running or cycling I am in the car and that seems to be the similar behaviour.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Minister, do you have a traffic model?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes, we have a traffic modelling programme.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Do you have the capability of being able to model alternative traffic management schemes yourself?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: Yes, we do.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes, we have a programme that does that. Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Are you currently looking at ways of improving traffic management in town?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Always.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So can you tell us about it?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Chris, can you ...?
I can just perhaps add something to it. On the recent congestion, it has been Mount Bingham but it has also been the works the J.E.C. (Jersey Electric Company) are doing going through Havre des Pas and they are going to be going right through to Grève d'Azette and on to Green Road. So while Mount Bingham is a relatively short period of some 2 to 3 months, the J.E.C. works is more like 4 to 5 months. Now, with the combined fairly congested network and 2 projects of that size happening at the same time concurrently, and one of them being outside of our control, it has caused significant impact.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Why is it outside your control? Why could you not have stopped the J.E.C. doing these works at the same time as the work on Mount Bingham?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
The Mount Bingham works were outside of our control. The J.E.C. works, we had been negotiating with them for over 2 or 3 years on their route planning and their route timings. They have now let contracts to do that and they want to get their infrastructure in place.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Did they not bring it forward a year or something?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: They did. They did ...
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
But J.E.C. had to bring it forward a year because they have lost ... I think Normandie 1, the cable to France.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Minister, a lot of people have said: "Why are the J.E.C. not doing that work at night and so on to speed it up? Why have we had to put up with very long delays while this is going on?"
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
We have had discussions with J.E.C., certainly as far away as a year or 2 years ago, as to the best time to conduct each section of their works. Where they are going through Havre des Pas, Green Road, as far as we know, it is very highly residential. It just would not be acceptable from past experience to do night-time works. The congestion is excessive in the morning peak and the afternoon peak so the J.E.C. are only working through the period from 9.30 a.m. till 3.00 p.m. then
they are off the road. The difficulty at the moment is that we have got the rock-face closed so we are getting that midday congestion. As soon as the rock-face work is complete and that is open, that will alleviate a lot of the problems which we have got. But we have still got a major infrastructure project going through one of our tightest areas which is going to continue to cause problems.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Can you give us the final dates on both of those projects so we know when we are going to be free of this peak congestion?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
The current position is that we will be opening one lane of Mount Bingham by the end of November. It will be all of Mount Bingham complete and both those open by December.
Deputy J.H. Young:
December when? Beginning or end?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: End of December.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
Just to bear in mind, you are asking us ... they are not our contracts. They are run by the parish of St. Helier on the mount and through a contracting company.
Deputy J.H. Young:
I understand. But they are ...
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
So these are figures we have been given and we are telling to you but it is something that I just want to bear in mind that that is the best information we have available.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Are you satisfied, Minister, that this rock-face has been dealt with as quickly as possible?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Absolutely. We have just come down from T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services) now. It is driving rain outside and there are people hanging off rocks with jackhammers as we speak getting the rock down and making it safe. So, I take my hat off to them; they are doing an excellent job.
Just to add something to what Chris has said, even though there would be one lane open, that will be from South Hill up and that will be going straight past Mount Bingham. The other lane will be open to via South Hill so there will be 2 lanes of traffic but one lane diverted via South Hill.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: One east, one west.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
But going east during the middle of the day you will still meet the J.E.C. works which may happen during the day. Their works are programmed to go through till about March or April of next year. They have got to get from where they are now, going through Havre des Pas right through to Grève d'Azette and through into Green Road to connect up with the duct work which they have got coming through from St. Clement .
[14:45]
Deputy J.H. Young:
So Havre des Pas is going to have works until the end of March, April?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
Not necessarily Havre des Pas. They will be through Havre des Pas probably by the end of the year but they have got to continue through Havre des Pas, down by the White Horse, around Grève d'Azette and right the way through Green Road. They are effectively ducting a route from the new sub-station at South Hill through to Grouville .
Deputy J.H. Young:
I assume you have warned all the residents in those areas of that programme of work?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
We have not personally; the J.E.C. have. We have been working with J.E.C. for over 4 years on the overall timing of the route. Once they agree the timing, we advise them what the traffic implications and street works management will be. That is co-ordinated with other projects and they then gain their permissions to start. Now what has happened here is that they have had their permissions and they were working away quite well and then we have had the rock-face which has come down which is outside of our control and we have had to try and manage both those projects. Now the J.E.C. ...
The Connétable of St. John :
I have 2 questions there, chairman. Rock-face one: with all the expertise that we have got in the parish of St. John with quarries and the like, we take down as many as hundreds of tons in a week as they have taken down so far in 3 or 4 weeks, why is it taking so long to stabilise the face when the expertise was on the Island in the 2 main quarries apart from our smaller quarries? Why did ...
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Well it is not so much taking it down as securing what is there. Because there are buildings on top of there that are of historic value.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: This is a different exercise.
Assistant Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Also do not forget that is again a question for St. Helier . It belongs to St. Helier , the question.
The Connétable of St. John :
I accept, but you are having some input obviously because of the traffic congestion. The second one is reference to J.E.C. Why are you not putting a power cable through the beach through to the reclamation site, basically the J.E.C. power station, given they are coming under the sea all the way to Grouville ? Why have they not done the same thing along the front, to the waterfront, and cut out all this congestion? Was that brought up at any of your meetings?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
The Connétable of St. John : What was the reason that the ...?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
They had to go this way. I am not sure what the technical detail was.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
I was not involved in the early stages of that. But it is always from a very early stage of planning if it is going to be a seaward reach or be a landward reach from there. They have got to get up to their new sub-station by the reversing bays at South Hill so they have got to come down South Hill and through Havre des Pas. We know from previous work in those areas that is a critical part of the infrastructure in terms of disruption. The answer to the chairman's questions about modelling, when we were aware of the situation we went back and we did some modelling of the various routes and the impacts of doing various actions. From that the change of direction for South Hill in the mornings, the instruction to J.E.C. to work only during the mid-period of the day, that was deemed from the obvious experience but backed up by what the model was telling us.
Assistant Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Normandie 3 is a big project coming through and it is not only delayed, obviously Mount Bingham is doing that, but it also will be impacted with works that are being done up at Rue à Don and all the resurfacing work.
Deputy J.H. Young: I think we want to ...
The Connétable of St. John : I appreciate the resurfacing.
Deputy J.H. Young:
A number of times I think the word "control" has been used and you have emphasised the point that you do not have control over these works. Does not the law give you the power to have that control, bearing in mind all these roads are main roads under your Ministry's ...
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
That will come in, I think, May of next year, the Street Works Law.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Are you ready for that? The law is ready, is it?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: It is in the final stages of preparation, I believe.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: Yes, it is.
Deputy J.H. Young:
I think at that point I am going to hand over to the Constable for some questions on roads.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
Just to bear in mind, although when the Street Works Law comes in it gives us more control, the utilities do have rights to utilise the road network for their infrastructure and that includes telecoms companies, electrical companies and the water company ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
But does that law not require proper co-ordination? For example, one has heard, or members of the public have said, there are examples of roads being resurfaced and the moment they are resurfaced they are dug up again.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
We have various agreements in place at the moment to stop that but they are very loose agreements. The Street Works Law will be coming to the States for debate next May or thereabouts.
Assistant Minister for Transport and Technical Services: It is in-principle, the latest one, is it not?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
A lot of effort is put into the co-ordination of street works and Chris will be able to speak about it in more detail than I am able to but the number of road openings has increased substantially over the year. We have about 2,500 road openings a year compared to I think it was about 300, 20 years ago or something like that because of the ageing infrastructure within our roads. So there is a lot of co-ordination goes on to ensure that the roads are not dug up after they have been resurfaced. However, should someone have a failure of their electricity supply or their water supply, then they have got a right to have that put back on and that is one of the issues. But we demand a higher standard of road reinstatement when that occurs.
The Connétable of St. John :
But at the end of the day is it not in a lot of cases the taxpayer that is picking up the bill - well it is the taxpayer who is picking up the bill - in making pucka reinstatement. Because what we get out of the utility companies now, and contrary to what the Minister has said that the companies have got a right to go through the public highways, it is only a right that is given by your department and/or the parishes to go through the highways. Because if they want to bring a power cable in, they could bring the power cable in via the sea, all right at greater expense, but we do not have to bring that power cable in right the way across the Island. It is to save the J.E.C. money, not to save the taxpayer money.
Assistant Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Can I just make 2 points? One is the clarification which perhaps Chris can pick up on. The law I think is coming to the States is in-principle debate in May. It is not for final approval, just so you are aware that there is a further delay. In terms of what you just said on the J.E.C., again, you might want to check that. My recollection is, and I remember having to deal with a particular issue about a J.E.C. cable either going on private land or going over States-owned land, and we were trying to attribute a value at that point because it was through a developer. This was a few years ago. The J.E.C. had a legal right under the law to impose upon the landowner and so I know there might be a difference on the roads but there is a fundamental right in certain utilities cases they can lay across your land.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Right, well I am going to move on from that. I am sure we will be coming back to look at it.
The Connétable of St. John :
I am fully aware of what you have said.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Can I can just have one final small question?
Deputy J.H. Young:
Have you finished, Constable, or do you want to ...?
The Connétable of St. John :
No, carry on because I think you are following on this one.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Could I just ask if the J.E.C. have taken the opportunity, or we have taken the opportunity while we have had these roads dug up, to fit in or to put any blank ducting in so that if we need it later ...
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: Yes, they have.
The Deputy of St. Martin : They have?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: They are ducting for that initial cable to be integrated in the future.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
So they have taken the opportunity to put in spare ducting? Okay, very sensible.
The Connétable of St. John :
But did they not put a lot of spare ducting in for fibre optics?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: Sorry?
The Connétable of St. John : On earlier occasions?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: J.E.C.?
The Connétable of St. John :
Yes, I believe so. I am asking the question, Minister.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
Yes, the commercial buildings were going to work around town. In front of the bus station they shared the trench with one of the comms utility companies.
The Connétable of St. John :
Yes, I was under the impression this happened in more than one area around the Island. Right, let us move on. Can you tell us where we are on our road maintenance, please? How many miles of road are we going to get resurfaced this year? I do not say "reconstructed", resurfaced.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: We are aiming to construct and resurface 5.2 kilometres of road this year.
The Connétable of St. John :
In miles, please. We do not drive around in kilometres over here. We drive around in miles. Could we have it in miles, please?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Divide it by 8 and multiply it by 5, I think.
I have not got it in miles, I am sorry. Basically, just to give you comparisons to previous years, 2012 was 3.9 kilometres, 2013 4.2 kilometres and 2014 5.2 kilometres. So in round terms we are doing in the order of about 4 kilometres a year.
The Connétable of St. John : Three miles.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: If that is the calculation.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: No, it is about 2.5.
The Connétable of St. John : A bit less than 3 miles.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
The Connétable of St. John :
Can you give all measurements, please, in miles?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: I am sorry, I have not got that information in miles.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: We are just converting it now.
The Connétable of St. John : Thank you.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
3.23 miles.
The Connétable of St. John : Thank you.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Can we ask why are we having the measurements in kilometres?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
Just because it upsets the Constable of St. John . [Laughter]
The Connétable of St. John :
Can I say, Minister, when the law changes that we drive and the like into kilometres per hour, et cetera, that is when we should move across. But I have seen nothing in any of our laws that say that we have to do sea measurements or road measurements in kilometres. I know it looks good when you hear somebody driving at 300 kilometres an hour on a Formula 1 racetrack and the like and it looks good when they are giving sea measurements in kilometres. But there is nothing in the law, on the Jersey law that I have seen, that says we will be doing all our transactions in kilometres. Could you please ensure ...
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
I will make sure they are done in both for you, Constable.
Deputy J.H. Young:
I wonder if we can move on to the next.
The Connétable of St. John :
Sorry. So we are only doing 3 miles when 20 years ago we were doing up to 15 miles resurfacing a year. How much patching are we doing over that period of time?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
Over and above that resurfacing we are spending £500,000 a year and that has been a constant budget on patching the network. We have got highways inspectors out who inspect all our network on a continual basis and they identify the projects and that is where the £500,000 is spent on a reactive and active patching, pothole filling and bigger panels.
The Connétable of St. John :
Well I have seen some of the pothole filling that is going on many of the roads in this Island. I do not think the public appreciate that £500,000 goes absolutely nowhere. I think it is time that the department, through you, Minister, and the Council of Ministers, went in for a budget that is acceptable to the people of Jersey and put money in place, or apply for money and fight your corner, that we get 15 to 20 miles a road per annum re-asphalted and we get proper funding for
the patching. When I say "proper funding", £3 to 5 million per annum because we are never going to catch up. Will you please explain why you are not fighting your corner?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
We are in talks with the Minister for Treasury and Resources about that now.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Do you agree, Minister, with what has been said about the backlog?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
There is a backlog, that is for sure, but we are playing catch-up.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Do you agree with the numbers that were quoted there? That we need to do 15 miles, 20 miles a year?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: At least 15 would be good, yes.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
Just to clarify the department's position, we have been constantly making requests for additional funding for road resurfacing over the last 10 to 15 years. We recognise there is a backlog and we appreciate there is a backlog. Every survey which is done demonstrates there is a backlog. We have got a request in for an additional £3 million of funding for backlog construction and that will be coming up as part of debate in future years for politicians to decide whether they want to give us that. But I think to defend the department, we are fully aware of the position. We know it is not enough money and we are constantly requesting additional cash.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Are the roads getting worse or are they at least holding their own, is that what you are telling us?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
Apart from our visual surveys we do a more formal survey every 3 years and we have just had one done in September this year. What it is showing is that the roads are just about holding their own at the moment. But that is holding their own in the current position which is in a position which is with a significant amount of backlog which will grow that backlog if no greater level of maintenance is done.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
How long does a main road last usually from being resurfaced to being resurfaced again?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
Well at this stage we are looking for about a 15-year design life on our resurfacing. All we are doing at the moment generally is scraping off the top and relaying. But by the time these roads are getting to the point where they need that, they should really be reconstructed which means taking the road down to the bottom, if you like, and rebuilding the layers. If we did that, we would be laying significantly less mileage ...
The Deputy of St. Martin :
How many miles of main road do we have to maintain?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: 167.
The Deputy of St. Martin : 167?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
Can I just caveat the 15 years? It really depends on the amount of traffic and the type of traffic that road takes. So the length of time a road lasts varies between 10 years and 20, 25 years.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Well, I know, but if I might say, Minister, the figure we have just been given, 167 miles of roads and life expectancy is 15 years, does not quite add up when you are doing 3 miles a year. We are going to get round every 58 years. Now, there is a significant difference in getting around in 15 years and getting round every 58 years.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Yes. That is why we are pursuing more money from Treasury. Just to emphasise, the survey that Chris is referring to is like a geophysics survey. They look at the sub-structure of the road, not just the surface. It is like a penetrating radar that looks at structures ...
The Connétable of St. John :
This has been going on for years. It was there when I was on the committee in the 1990s and at the turn of the century.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Well this is some new kit that has come over.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
It is an ongoing survey which happens every 3 ... we have got our vision inspections which we are driving our main roads every 3 weeks, we are walking every 9 weeks. Then we have got inspection periods on all our roads that our road inspectors do and then we have our 3-year formal survey. That survey identifies areas into various categories and then we design our programme around that. But there is always more in that survey than we can hope to repair within the budgets we have got.
[15:00]
Deputy J.H. Young:
Are you telling us that we will not get a chance to address this in the States re the funding until the next medium-term financial plan? Or are you still in discussions for money in 2014 so far as fiscal stimulus money is concerned?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
In terms of fiscal stimulus, we did some fiscal stimulus and we have had potentially a small amount coming through. In terms of the backlog maintenance which we requested, I understand that was still in the budget for this year.
Deputy J.H. Young:
You mean you have got it? The money is there?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: No, it is in the budget for debate.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: On which budget?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
It was due for ... I have not got the information but I think that extra £3 million was due to be coming through in 2016.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Well can you let us know? I think we need to be clear about that.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: Certainly.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Whether or not anything has been done about this or not. Because I certainly would like to know the reasons why those requests are falling on deaf ears.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: Okay.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
I hear what you are telling us, Minister, about just resurfacing roads shallow and fears for needing maintenance below. One of the roads that we are having resurfaced at the moment is Rue à Don in Grouville and I think it is quite notorious and well known that the stretch between Grouville Post Office and Gorey is on a marsh. Are we intending to just cover that road again with a couple of inches of tarmac or are we going to do a serious job of rebuilding that road to make sure it stays proper?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
Well for the reason I said before, we will not be rebuilding the road. What we are doing though is we are scraping off the surface and if there are any highlighted areas, small areas, which need replacing and which are predominantly old service trenches, we are doing that. We are covering those with a geogrid which is a strengthening material prior to that new surfacing going back on. But it is not the full ...
The Deputy of St. Martin :
So we should expect the road to continue to move as it has done for ever really?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: Well within the realms of serviceability, yes.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
But as part of previous works, what we have done is improve the drainage along the road as well, Chris.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
So the roadside drainage is improved so the surface water runoff is not going straight over the side of the road and into the ground and then softening the ground. We are putting drainage curves along there in preparation for that.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Well, yes, but I might point out when it comes to moisture in that part of the world, your road cuts quite clearly between the marsh and the beach.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Have we covered that one? Can we move to sustainable transport?
The Connétable of St. John :
Well, street works. I just want to finish on street works because given that street works has been kicking around for 12, 14 years at least and we are only going to be debating this in-principle, to put the meat on the bones, when do you think the meat will go on the bones? Because every year you are telling us now there are thousands of holes which are dug. We need that meat put on the bones sooner rather than later so that we can tie the companies down to reinstating the entire road as was agreed through 1998 and 2002. That is what was agreed then by the committee of the day and really it is crazy that we are going to be in 2014 and we will not be putting the meat on the bones.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
It has to come to the States and at the moment that is going to be, I think, May.
The Connétable of St. John : You cannot bring it before?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Well it has to go to the Law Officers and ...
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
I will just explain. The position we are in is the actual Street Works Law is a very complex law which is overriding and changing lots of other laws. It is all the individual ...
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: It is consequential.
The Connétable of St. John : I accept that.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: All the individual service companies' laws will need to be changed.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Thank you for that. I wonder if we can move to sustainable transport. Steve, do you want to pick up on this?
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Yes. Minister, I think I am on record with other Ministers and States bodies saying that I am a bit concerned that we are not meeting any of our targets in the Sustainable Transport Policy but I am hoping you can prove me wrong.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Well we are just finalising a progress report which should be out within the next month.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: You will have a progress report within the next 4 weeks.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Is this the same report you said we would have at the end of September?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: This is the same report, unfortunately, yes.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Is there a reason why we were supposed to have it in September and we are still waiting?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: Just pressure of other works, I am afraid.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Okay. What will the report tell us?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
The report will basically set out the statistics as I gave them to you when we last met. What its main finding is, while there has not been a huge reduction in traffic, there has been a small reduction and we hope that this will be the beginning of a downward trend.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Can you remind us when the targets finish? We have targets for the reduction in car use and so on. When are we supposed to achieve that by?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: The end of 2015.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
We are not on target for that presently?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: We are not on target for that at the moment, no. Although ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
What target was that, remind me?
The Deputy of St. Martin : It was a 15 per cent ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
A 15 per cent reduction.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: Yes, which was a stretch target, to be fair.
Deputy J.H. Young:
We have achieved, was it a 1 per cent?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
We have got a 1.4 per cent reduction in traffic at the moment. Although there are encouraging signs in various areas: so in terms of school buses there has been a big increase in the take-up of school buses this year. Certain routes like the Eastern Corridor which is by the number 1, 1A and 16 has had a 13 per cent increase in ridership this year. If you use revenue as a proxy for passenger numbers, then there has been an increase in general bus ridership of something between 3 and 4 per cent we are projecting by the end of the year because the year is not complete yet.
Deputy J.H. Young: Overall?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: Yes. We could have some snow and that could go completely.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Given we have only achieved a 1.4 per cent reduction so far and we have got another 13 per cent to go in a relatively short period of time, Minister, do you have any golden bullets up your sleeve or aces up your sleeve to try to get anywhere near achieving our targets?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Well we are trying to expand the bus service as much as possible. But sadly the buses use the same roads as the cars and so they are in the same traffic jams at the moment.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Can we expect some out-of-the-box thinking on how we might increase bus usage?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Well we are working on a free bus day which would be good to encourage people ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
Can you tell us about that, Minister?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Sorry?
Deputy J.H. Young: A free bus day?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
A day when nobody pays any fares?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
That sounds like an interesting initiative, Minister. When is it going to be?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: We are not finalised yet.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
I hope it is not going to be a Sunday, Minister.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: No, it is ...
The Connétable of St. John :
Just like a little zip wire from Fort Regent down into town, is it?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: A cable car would be good.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
Sunday services is somewhere where we have managed to make a big improvement this winter. Or over the last few winters but particularly this winter. Whereas ... I better just make sure I get this right for you. We had 3 winter services 3 years ago, is that right? John, do you recall the figure?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: I think that is right.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
I will find you the figures and let you know. But basically everywhere on the Island now enjoys a winter Sunday service of some description which is a first.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So that has been an improvement?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: So that has been an improvement.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Minister, we are championing Sand Street car park and number plate recognition and we have seen recently that it has cost you a lot of money. Could you just tell us very briefly how much money it has cost you?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Do you mean the actual system?
The Deputy of St. Martin : Well, no, the loss in revenue.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Well the loss in revenue, it is not a loss in revenue as such but that people are not getting parking fines any more which is good for the people of Jersey. That runs into thousands obviously but it is for the benefit of the people of Jersey, so I am happy to go with that.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Are you seeing any uptake in the use of the car parks since the system has changed?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Tris? Do you have the stats there?
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Is Sand Street being used more now that we have got the new system?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
The actual parking levels, I think, remain pretty consistent. We understand a little bit more about how people use that car park to be able to make better parking comparisons in the future. So we now understand how long people stay in the car parks which was quite difficult to ascertain previously.
The Deputy of St. Martin : That will help pretty much ...
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
But the overall parking levels have remained constant for quite a number of years.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
How quickly are you expecting to roll the system out into the other car parks, Minister?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Have you got the timetable, Tris?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
We would expect to roll out an A.N.P.R. (Automatic Number Plate Recognition) type system to the other multi-storey car parks over the next year. This will be picked up by the end of next year.
Deputy J.H. Young:
What has the evidence shown about when people pay a higher charge for car parking? Are there any conclusions you can draw from that? Anecdotally people have said ...
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Sorry, we do have a double-edged sword in that respect. Because when the strategic transport plan was put in there was an amendment - I believe it was the Constable of St. Mary - that stated we must not increase parking disproportionately until such times as alternative modes of transport were in place.
Deputy J.H. Young:
What does that mean? A bus service?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: It is a chicken and egg, basically.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Right, so at the moment you are not able to ...
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Not disproportionately.
Deputy J.H. Young:
... make disproportionate changes?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes, they cannot price-incentivise.
Deputy J.H. Young:
But you have told us you are going to bring a report to the States on where you are with that policy?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
Just going back to the Sunday services, I have got the figures now. There are 100 more Sunday services this winter which is more than ever before. Three years ago we were only operating 3 winter routes providing 30 services.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Can I ask a bit more about the free bus day, Minister? Have you got any details you can give us?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Not as yet, no. It is one of my initiatives.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
It is going to be a real free bus day, though?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: That would be good, yes.
The Connétable of St. John :
Who leads your Sustainable Transport Policy apart from yourself, Minister, of course? Who is the civil servant running it?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
Well it is my directorate which runs the Sustainable Transport Policy but the department as a whole plays a role.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Tristen is the Director of Transport.
The Connétable of St. John : All right. Okay, thank you.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
So I have got my colleagues on their bicycles from middle management in T.T.S. ...
The Connétable of St. John :
Yes, I have met you in the country sometimes on your bicycles, yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
That free bus day, that sounds an excellent initiative, Minister. What about more radical alternatives? Are you looking at the possibility of bus lanes to give priority for buses? You mentioned that buses are sitting in the same traffic queue as everybody else.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Are you looking actively at seeing if there are any ways, creative thinking to find ways, even on short stretches of road?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
We are looking outside of the box and we have looked at bus lanes but there is nowhere to basically put them. We have looked at several areas. In fact, I noticed recently in the U.K. (United Kingdom) and Liverpool they are shutting down bus lanes to try and ease congestion which was quite an odd move but that is what they are doing.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
What about other drastic measures, Minister? What about only allowing motor bikes and bicycles on certain roads?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
That is not something we are working on at the moment but we are trying to encourage more and more people to use 2 wheels as opposed to 4.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Minister, all options, one that occurred to me, for example, if you go from Castle Street to Gloucester Road junction you will find there is an area of grass which is basically used as a dogs' exercise area at the moment. It is a very large carriageway area, direct route out of the bus station. Is there any way you could look at that to try and find ...?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
We have got an area on the Esplanade we are looking at converting to motorcycle parking.
Deputy J.H. Young:
No, I mean to get vehicles fast in and out of the bus station. At the moment they have got to run round the loop and get stuck in traffic. Could they not do that? Or will that be affected by the Esplanade development, what is going on there?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: I probably imagine. Chris?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: It will be affected by the Esplanade development.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: It must be, yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So we have got that space at the moment but we cannot use it?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young: Okay, Minister, thank you.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
There are no easy solutions regarding providing bus lanes but the type of thing we have done is provide express buses. So there is the number 12X, for instance, which comes from St. Ouen 's Bay. Instead of going on the inner road it goes along Victoria Avenue and goes straight to town so we are trying to speed up people's journeys and have the same effect but using the infrastructure that we have got available to us.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Minister, one thing I am going to spend a lot of time on is this but I think it is an important subject. Are we facing a situation in the long run, if the population of Jersey carries on rising, will there not be a point you will need to consider more radical alternatives in terms of managing traffic? Is it not likely that is the situation we will have to be facing some time or other?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
One follows the other: with an increase of population there will be an increase in traffic. But as I say we are trying modal shifts. We are looking outside of the box, other ways of getting people into St. Helier and out again, and we are getting more and more requests for speed control. But we need to get people home in a timely manner, so it is a balancing act.
The Connétable of St. John :
Can we just have an update? The last time you looked at reclaiming an area from St. Brelade , the old railway station, i.e. the parish hall, to St. Helier with reclaiming an area along the beach all the way along, when was the last time that was looked at?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: That was looked at - I looked at that myself - about 10 years ago.
The Connétable of St. John : Fifteen.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
I would think it would be about that. The costs of that were so significant that it basically did not fall into the realms of the funding at the time.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
There has been an assumption made that population is proportional to traffic. Well, it depends where the people live. If the population increase is going to be within an open environment and we provide people with enough facilities so they do not need a car, then it does not necessarily mean that you will have more people coming into St. Helier . Your assumption, I think, is one where people are travelling into St. Helier , whereas if people work in St. Helier and live in St. Helier there is not an increase in traffic volumes. I think the long-term aspiration is one where there is going to be more development in the St. Helier area and hopefully the traffic will not be proportional to the population.
The Connétable of St. John :
So therefore over the years many businesses in St. Helier have used the premises directly above their properties for stores and for other reasons.
[15:15]
What move has the Minister done to see that these properties are brought back into the Housing fold of the Island and taken out of the commercial fold i.e. the first-floor buildings which were homes for generations in the past?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Well that would be a matter for Housing but obviously more office space is being built on the waterfront which will make some offices in town redundant and I would imagine they will be converted to residential use.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Minister, the statement your Chief Officer made is obviously a very significant one. Does that not omit the fact that people who are living in town may work in other places and will want to travel around from town outside to other parts of the Island? Does that not make the case for additional car parking and so on to accommodate that? Are you saying that we are going to accommodate the population of the future without them having access to vehicles at all?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
No, I think the issue we were discussing was congestion when people are commuting into St. Helier . If you live in St. Helier and you are going out, you are going in the other direction.
Deputy J.H. Young: At different times.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: At different times.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Maybe we could just change the subject ever so slightly from transport to parking of vehicles.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: That is a different issue again.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Maybe the officer could tell us ... I believe there has been a slight change in tactics recently on the necessity for car parks in town. If we are going to have a lot more people living in town, they are all going to want a vehicle or a vehicle between one or 2 of them.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Are we changing tactics and looking for additional car parking spaces, Minister?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
We are looking at building a car park in the north of town. We cannot say where at the moment but my wish is if we expand the bus service to such an extent there is a bus every 10 minutes, unless people particularly need or want a car they do not have to have one.
Deputy J.H. Young:
But you are looking to expand public parking in town?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Marginally, yes. We are looking at a site north of town.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
I think the thing about parking is that we have got sufficient parking spaces within St. Helier , the problem is the distribution of them around the town. They all tend to be concentrated on the south of town.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
We have got Pier Road which has about 250 spaces vacant on a daily basis.
The Connétable of St. John :
But on a daily basis, school holiday time we do not have a traffic problem.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: No, but that ...
The Connétable of St. John :
What action are you taking to make sure that parents do not just drive into town every day with little Joey and little Joanne and drop them off at school? Why are you not taking action in that area to make sure that those young people, whatever age they may be, from 7 upwards, 8 upwards or 5 upwards, take the bus?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Well you say "take action", all we can do is encourage at the moment. You are quite right in a sense that I believe we take home, I think it is between 550 and 600 children per day more than we take to school which means that obviously those children are going to school with their parents, parents driving into town to the office. They may do a loop up Mont Millais, possibly drop one child off, drop another child off maybe in Wellington Road, and that adds to the congestion. You are quite right, when the schools are on holiday, there is not a congestion problem but it is this rush- hour peak in the morning when we get the problem.
The Connétable of St. John :
So between you and your fellow Ministers, you are not trying to tackle that problem?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
We are trying to tackle that problem. Tristen is heading up some of the problems: looking at schools, traffic, et cetera.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
We are carrying 2,800 students on the school buses to school each day and there is a further 600 child fares sold on the public network which would be students travelling. We have seen a big increase this year. In fact, we have had to adjust our routes to accommodate them. So we are being successful in getting students on to the buses. We can always do more, I accept that.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
From our statistics, is that a serious increase on the number of children using buses over the previous operator?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
Yes, we believe we may have hit the Sustainable Transport Policy targets in that area but we want a bit more data to be confident in that.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Is there still more capacity for growth?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
The only way we can get more capacity at the moment is to reorganise the routes. Because while some buses are full, some buses have got space on them but we do not have the budget to get more buses in at the moment.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So there is a funding issue there, is there?
Assistant Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
If you want more capacity in certain places you need more money.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
There is also the problem of primary school children who do not use the bus unless they are with a sibling.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Have you got a working group with the Education Department on this?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
Yes, we look at the demographics the year ahead, so we are looking now for next September, trying to find out where the students will be living so we can design the routes accordingly. But we have put in more additional funding for the school buses for a number of years now.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Is the funding of school buses something which is purely borne by your department, Minister?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
So there is no contribution from Education, Sport and Culture?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: No. No, it was transferred to us.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So when will this bus funding request come to fruition? Are we talking about a funding request for 2014 or till 2015, 2016, et cetera? When will it be?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
We have made them previously but it has not previously made the cut through to the medium-term financial plan.
Deputy J.H. Young: So a low priority again?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: There is the hospital and other things that are going on which ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
Minister, is this not part and parcel of discussions about school capital funding? For example, there are discussions underway going from the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture's statements about funding for the new Les Quennevais school. Is not this issue about the school transport arrangements? Should that not be part and parcel of those discussions?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Yes, it is getting more joined-up now. There has been more dialogue between the various departments on that.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
Certainly whenever there is a planning application for a new facility, then part of that discussion will be the transport impact and how that is going to be addressed. We have got a study ongoing at the moment of the whole, what we call the Mont Millais triangle, which is where the schools are in town, to see what we can do to try and improve the traffic circulation and the facilities for public transport in the area.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Could you just remind us, Minister, did the Sustainable Transport Policy go through the States?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes, yes.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Was it a report or was it a report and proposition?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: No.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: A proposition.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
A proposition. So it has been accepted by the Assembly that it is a target we want to meet. Therefore, Minister, do you think you have a sustainable case to go back to the Council of Ministers and ask for money to try to further that?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
It has been a States decision; it should really get the support of your fellow Ministers.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
It has been a States decision but there were several caveats put in there as well regarding funding. But it is something we are always trying to improve.
The Connétable of St. John :
Do you think you are too timid with your fellow Ministers, Minister?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: No.
The Connétable of St. John :
Because you come across as a very timid type of person.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: No.
The Connétable of St. John :
Therefore, you could be taken advantage of by other Ministers as being the nice chap from T.T.S. Do you not think you should be really thumping the table somewhat heavier than you do?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
We have been in discussions lately. I have been in discussions with Treasury ...
The Connétable of St. John : You say "lately", only lately?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes. Last week.
The Connétable of St. John : Yes, but how far back ...
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: I am not timid, do not worry about it.
The Connétable of St. John :
... did the discussions start? They go back 2 years?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
The Connétable of St. John :
So you were not thumping the table heavy enough then that you could not get money out of the Education budget?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: It is an ongoing problem that I am addressing.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Minister, is it right that funding decisions are made on who shouts the loudest ...
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: No.
Deputy J.H. Young:
... and who thumps the table?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: No.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Is it the case that you do have to do that to get listened to at the Council of Minister's table?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: No.
Deputy J.H. Young:
To get these issues properly dealt with?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
No, everything is gone through, a lot of it is done at officer level and they know exactly what is needed and what has to be done.
The Connétable of St. John :
So you are trying to tell us your officers now are ...
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: I am not trying to tell you.
The Connétable of St. John :
Well you are telling us that your officers are trying to be nice guys to play ball with all the other officers instead of ...
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
There is only so much cake and it can only be sliced in so many areas.
The Connétable of St. John :
... putting the knife in and making sure they do what is right for the T.T.S. Department.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Yes, well we are all fighting for the same piece of cake. Obviously Health is fighting, et cetera ...
The Connétable of St. John :
Could I ask your C.E.O. (Chief Executive Officer) if he is really fighting his corner or is he trying to be a nice chap among your fellow C.E.O.s?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: I do not think anybody has ever accused me of that.
The Connétable of St. John : What, of being a nice chap?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: Of being a nice chap.
Deputy J.H. Young:
But is it not true that if you rattled the cage enough it puts you in a bad odour with the powers that be, as it were, who makes these funding decisions? Is that not the case?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: We do what needs to be done.
The Connétable of St. John :
Well I wonder because some of the answers you have been giving us this afternoon, like 3.2 miles of road going to be asphalted next year, that does not sound as if you have been fighting your corner very hard, Minister.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Well there has been a recession and we have all had to cut back and the department has made cuts over the years but we are moving forward now.
The Connétable of St. John :
But we are told that some of the funding gets returned, not from your department, but from other departments, and there are under-spends each year.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Just a couple of more questions on buses and then we will get on to taxis.
Deputy J.H. Young:
One more question to close on buses from Deputy Luce , please, and then I will give you a chance to come back in.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Minister, progress on swipe cards, please. I ask this every time.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Sorry, progress ...?
The Deputy of St. Martin :
On swipe cards, I am really keen for everybody to use a swipe card who gets on to a bus. How are we doing?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Well we are very keen too because it speeds up the buses, speeds up boarding time.
The Deputy of St. Martin : Absolutely.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Have you got it there, Tris?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
I am just checking the notes. But basically the smart cards are now out there so students are using smart cards, tourists during the summer would have been using smart cards on multi-day passes. The multi-day passes that are sold locally are on smart cards now so they are being rolled out.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
What about the members of the general public who use buses early in the morning, late at night?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
They combine multi-day passes which are smart cards at the moment. What is not out there yet is the type of e-purse where you just draw down a journey each time you get on. But if you get yourself a weekly pass or an annual pass then you will have a smart card now.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Do the public have the ability to buy those weekly passes in bulk and get a reduction in the cost of them?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: No, once you have bought it you can then top it up online.
The Deputy of St. Martin : Oh, okay.
Assistant Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Can I make one comment? Because we have touched on buses quite a lot and obviously I think we all know that the first 6 months has been pretty difficult and that has been pretty resource- intensive, so some stuff that everyone would like to see come through a lot earlier we are starting to see coming through now. But it looks from what I understand, and Tris can correct me, is that from a data point of view we are going to be getting a lot more information. Now they have got this G.P.S. (Global Positioning System) setup for the buses hopefully working properly they will then start being able to tie in the particular machines ...
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Yes, I would not want to give the wrong impression, but we do ask for numbers and data every time we meet and it is always going to be at the next meeting we are going to receive the data.
Assistant Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Well, the briefings we are getting mean that very imminently they will be able to start telling us the numbers and types of people getting on and off at each bus stop and all that stuff, and that will be easier.
Deputy J.H. Young:
If we can just say, the panel has had this dialogue about reports and we have accepted that due to the circumstances that you have faced in dealing with the operator, we have allowed that to go by. But I think, Minister, from what you have said, you will be publishing a report by the end of the year on these numbers, is that right?
Assistant Minister for Transport and Technical Services: The S.T.P. (Sustainable Transport Policy).
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: The Sustainable Transport Policy progress report?
Deputy J.H. Young:
Yes, on the progress with the bus service: on ridership numbers, route analysis and so on.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
That is obviously looking back in time. I think this year has seen the beginning of a change in the bus service and we are starting to see mainly more improvements coming through because the new contract, it is easier to introduce those new improvements.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Yes, we accept that. We have seen that.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
I think it will be more interesting at the end of next year, looking back, rather than at the old contract.
Assistant Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
If it helps, they have given us on the Sunday bus service, for example, a quite useful map which gives before and after, as it were, which Senator Ozouf ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
Okay, I think the Constable is going to go on to route development.
The Connétable of St. John :
Yes, just one thing. Your route development is in place and I have written to you, Minister, on several occasions and it has not been dealt with. Bus stops being put in front of - and I will refer to the property - Millennium Court, for instance, there is a bus stop right across the entrance. Vehicles cannot enter or exit that property, and sometimes for up to 5 minutes, while people are taking money. The bus waits directly outside this big block of flats and people cannot come or go and nothing has been done about it, yet, you have got a lay-by adjacent to that where you could pull in. When will I get a response?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: Have you not had a response on that?
The Connétable of St. John : I have not had a response.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
Okay, apologies for that. That has been looked at. I will chase the response up when you ... there are engineering reasons why it is difficult to move that particular stop elsewhere but I will come back to you if that is all right.
The Connétable of St. John :
Thirty feet along it will clear the bus stop. It will clear the entrance and there are parking spaces.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Well, if you could let the Constable know the answer to that. It is important. One final question on route development. Obviously you have said that you are in a programme of developing these. Are you having consultation meetings with bus-user groups, the public and so on? There was a letter in the paper the other day regarding St. Lawrence and so on and Carrefour Selous about bus routes. Are you ...
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: LibertyBus was organising parish meetings for all parishioners.
Deputy J.H. Young:
When are they going to be, roughly?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
They will be monthly, I think, more or less. It is going to be in the J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post) ...
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: There is one in St. Saviour this Thursday.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: St. Saviour , yes.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: So St. Saviour 's parish hall there is a meeting.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So you are committed to an ongoing programme on this route?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: Absolutely.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Right, I am going to close that.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
We are putting up as many bus stops as we can as soon as money allows.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Okay, good. Well I am going to move that now ...
The Connétable of St. John :
Before closing, can I thank the Minister for what he did in the trial up on the North Road? Although it has not worked as it should, I was pleased to see that LibertyBus took on board and trialled that and it is a plus on their part.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
They are going to look at other initiatives like that as part of the summer timetable and will be consulting on some ideas about connecting St. Ouen , St. Peter and St. Brelade , that type of thing.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
I think in really closing the buses, might I just say, chairman, that our continued questioning on buses only shows our desire to have a bus service.
[15:30]
We are not criticising you; we are just trying to encourage you to be as fast as possible, Minister, with buses.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Thank you.
The Deputy of St. Martin : You have our full support.
Deputy J.H. Young:
To add to that, we know you have had to work extremely hard in overcoming a lot of the issues but the general direction seems to be in the right way, so we will be coming back to that because ...
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Well we have weekly meetings with LibertyBus.
Deputy J.H. Young: Good.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: We are both heading in the same direction.
Deputy J.H. Young: Your relationship is good?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Excellent.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Good. I want to move now to another public transport: the issue of taxis. Now obviously there has been a lot of discussions over many years. We in fact spoke to you about this twice this year. We spoke to you about it at the hearing on 18th February and you told us that you were going to be bringing forward your White Paper for a new arrangement for taxi regulation in the Island in July. It did not happen and we saw you on 2nd September and you told us in a public hearing that you were going to be lodging those proposals, your White Paper, in the States at the beginning of October. We are now in the first half of November, Minister, can you tell us what your intentions are on this?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Yes, the White Paper has been drafted, chairman, and at the moment we are in discussions with the Channel Islands Competition and Regulatory Authorities.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Why are you in discussions with the Channel Islands Competition and Regulatory Authorities, Minister, to issue a White Paper?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
As part of the consultation, we have done an extensive consultation on the proposals for taxis, both with the public, with industry. We would like to think we have included Scrutiny as far as possible as well, and also the Channel Islands Competition and Regulatory Authorities. The Channel Islands Competition and Regulatory Authorities have raised some issues of detail about our proposals and those at the moment are unresolved. We want to resolve them before we go to consultation. My understanding is that I will have an email from the Competition and Regulatory Authorities tomorrow morning about those points of detail. I am hopeful that that email will be positive and we will be able to go forward and get the White Paper out which will probably just take a couple of weeks because it is drafted and is sat on my desk.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Can I be clear, you have not had an email but you are expecting one?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: We have been in discussion with them.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
Yes, we have had officer meetings last week and the week before discussing the issues that arose. I think it was more about getting clarity in terms of what our intent was and the intent of the Competition and Regulatory Authorities and what their view was. So what we wanted to do was get them to a better understanding so that the White Paper would be supported by them.
The Connétable of St. John :
Is this for total deregulation or is this partial?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
Well you have seen the White Papers, so you know the position.
Deputy J.H. Young:
What position are the Channel Islands Competition and Regulatory Authorities taking in this? First of all, is it part of their statutory responsibility to look at this area of public life?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
It is not up to me to comment on the Competition and Regulatory Authorities. We have been liaising with them as we need to. We take on their comments to a point and we take on your comments probably to a greater degree. So we work with bodies so that we can get a White Paper that is sustainable and that will be successful as it goes through the procedures.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Is there not merit, Minister, in you putting both of these documents in the public domain so we can see what is being said? You have been working on this for a very long time.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
When we first met you 2 years ago, you were carrying out your consultation exercise. We know that has been done a very long time ago. You have told us twice this year you were ready to go out and then at the 11th hour we get this intervention from the ...
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
Well just to clarify. We believe that the Channel Islands Competition and Regulatory Authorities' views are very similar to ours. What we have tried to explain to them, and I think we have been successful in doing that ...
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: We have, yes.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
... is their correspondence with us has showed a slight misunderstanding and a slight difference in terms of interpretation of what the White Paper said. So we will be trying to clarify those issues before we go into a public position. If we cannot clarify that, the paper will be issued anyway but what we are trying to do is get it so that everybody is a part of it so we get ...
The Connétable of St. John :
When will it be issued, please? Give us a date.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
Well, Tristen has said the email will come from the Competition and Regulatory Authorities tomorrow and we will be publishing as soon as possible. We have had this ready since certainly the back end of August to be published.
The Connétable of St. John : But can we have a date?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: Two weeks from tomorrow.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
I really need to see that email tomorrow and then I can return to you but I would be hopeful that we would get it out for ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
Minister, do you want us to get in touch with the Competition and Regulatory Authorities and require them to come here and explain what is the intervention that is taking place after the 2 or 3 years' work? Is it necessary for us to do it?
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Was it their responses to the Green Paper that were not clear?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
They have made some comments. An example of the comment was one about issuing receipts in a taxi and they did not feel as though that was an appropriate thing to do. We explained the reasons for that and it was about being able to have a check and balance on the fee you have been charged for that and also a record of that transaction. Once we explained that to them, then they understood that in terms of what ...
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Did you not find it concerning that they would raise such an interesting issue? Would you not expect them to understand their subject a bit better?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
It is not up to me to comment on the Channel Islands Competition and Regulatory Authorities. They come at it from a different perspective and we have got to respect that. What we are trying to do is make sure that ... changing the taxi industry has been, and I think the Constable will back me up in this, in abeyance for 20 years. It has been attempted ...
The Connétable of St. John : Probably closer to 30.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
Yes, and what we want to do is make sure ... and I think we have had it done in very close liaison with yourselves. You have seen the White Paper, you have seen the Green Paper, and we have had many offline discussions about this. We are trying to do the same with all key stakeholders because it is going to be a difficult period; it is an industry which is not comfortable with change. We have just been through the bus industry which has slowly settled down. This is another industry which is going to see change, how to challenge perhaps a big change in people's livelihoods. What we would like to do is make sure that we have a common view in terms of what the direction of travel is.
The Connétable of St. John :
Will that happen in this term of this Government?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
The Connétable of St. John : Minister?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
I think we can understand that but what we are struggling with is not being able to do that in an open, transparent way, particularly in the amount of work that has gone on.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
But we have discussions with you - we do this in an open way - but we have discussions with you which are behind closed doors because when a policy is in development or when there are clarifications to be had, that is the better way of doing it. Not everything can be open and I do not think this is the forum to start criticising the views of the Channel Islands Competition and Regulatory Authorities.
Deputy J.H. Young:
No, I am not criticising. I am trying to establish what they are because there seems to be a difference between what you have just said there which frankly sounded to me like a point of minor detail.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: I used it as an example.
Deputy J.H. Young:
But I really want to know, are there major fundamental issues here ...
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: We do not believe so, no.
Deputy J.H. Young:
... in the general direction that you are going?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
I do not think there are. There is a difference of opinion about how you go about change and how you manage change and that is where the differences have arisen. But I think we have now clarified that with them and I think that they accept what we have said.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Do you think, Minister, that it is right that the Competition and Regulatory Authorities are advising you on managing change? Surely they should be telling you the position you need to end up in? Is it their job to tell you how to get to that position?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
It is their job. In the end it is a fair decision but it is down to my team and myself to negotiate that, yes. But there are hoops to jump through and we are doing that as soon as we can.
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
The department has a history of looking at taxis with the Competition and Regulatory Authorities, as the previous Minister invited them in initially to do a study and so they were invited to put forward a paper and to advise the Minister early on in the process before the Sustainable Transport Policy went to the States. So they have had quite a long association with this.
Deputy J.H. Young:
That letter was in the public domain, was it not? That original submission?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Remind us what it said in a nutshell.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
It was more of a revolutionary stance than the White Paper.
Deputy J.H. Young:
What, you mean they wanted to see complete deregulation, did they?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: In the short order, yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Similar to what happened I understand in Dublin in Ireland, is that right?
The Connétable of St. John :
So by getting in bed with the Regulator you have managed to water that down, would that be right?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
Getting in bed is a very strong term. We have been trying to have very good discussions with the Competition and Regulatory Authorities and with the analysis we have done on our White Paper and our analysis of how change has been successfully managed in other places, we believe our direction of travel is the correct one.
The Connétable of St. John :
Do you think that is in the best interest of the Island, having done this with the Regulator from day one instead of him regulating what is put in place?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
That is a question for him as opposed to us. What we are trying to do is not ... we are going to have enough opposition for our policy which is going to require a strong voice from everybody without the critics being semi-internal from other bodies. So, what we would like to do is make sure everyone understands our position and at least, if not supportive, silent on it so that we can be heard in terms of our direction of travel.
The Connétable of St. John :
You do not think that will be criticised for having got in bed, for want of a better word, with the Regulator by the industry and they were not to take notice of any of the Regulator's decisions later on?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
We are not getting in bed with the industry. I think the letter they published is a direction of travel which we believe is too extreme for sustainable change within Jersey.
Deputy J.H. Young:
From what you have said the dialogue you have had has moved them off of that original position taken a couple of years ago.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: We will find out tomorrow, I think is the answer.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: When we get their reply.
Deputy J.H. Young:
One last question because I think we are all constrained on this. Has this subject been discussed with the Council of Ministers, Minister?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: They have inquired as to where we are with it, yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
What does that mean? Does that mean that you are subject to getting their approval or is it like you have been given a green light to deal with this without further recourse for them?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
It has been discussed with the Chief Minister, has it not?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
The Connétable of St. John :
The Chief Minister? The Chief Minister? That is not the Council of Ministers?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: It is not the Council of Ministers.
The Connétable of St. John :
There are 10 people sitting round that table. Surely you need all their support to push something like this through?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
When we are ready to go, yes, we will discuss it in detail with them.
Deputy J.H. Young:
I will be coming back to this, Minister. So are you able to set us a date ... you must have a date in your head during your ministerialship, a date by which you personally want to ensure that you would not be exceeded in publishing these proposals.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Within my term of office.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So we could be another year?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
No, I did not say that. I said it will be within my term of office.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
We expect the White Paper out before the end of the month.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes, and we can move forward.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Could I just ask before we finish on the subject. When the paper comes out before the end of this month, what is the procedure then, Minister? What is the timetable?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services:
It is set out in States procedures so we are required to have a 3-month consultation. But I think because we have done a significant amount on consultation previously, I will ask if we can have a reduced period and then we will lodge a proposition.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
It is programmed in for next year but next year, because it is an election year, it is going to get really busy but we are hoping for May.
Deputy J.H. Young:
What about the Consumer Council? Have they expressed a view to it?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: Yes, we have consulted ...
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: They have had some input, yes.
The Connétable of St. John :
I am concerned when you say May, CEO. Because with slippage, as we know, we have already seen slippage today on the things that are supposed to happen. Could you try for Easter, please?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
We can. The difficulty is that there is a year's worth of States business to be packed into the first 6 months next year.
The Connétable of St. John :
Well if we have to work 5 days a week, we have to work 5 days a week. I think the Ministers need to take that on board.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Surely they are working 5 days a week now, Constable.
The Connétable of St. John : Yes, I mean in the Chamber.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Given the constraints, much as I would like to, we are going to have to close that session but we will be coming back to it. We will be watching that very closely, Minister.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Excellent.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Please alert us if you run into any problems in your dialogue and we will see them.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Thank you, Chairman.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
Can I suggest we copy your Scrutiny Officer into the email that we receive tomorrow? How is that?
Deputy J.H. Young:
Okay. Now I want to now move to the subject of - I am sure you will be delighted to hear - asbestos and ash. I will hand over to Deputy Luce .
The Deputy of St. Martin :
I do not have many questions on asbestos, Minister, but one would be: have we seen any correspondence from the Environment Department in the very recent past?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
We have not had a ... have we had a reply? It is under consideration at the moment.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
So it is still under consideration?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Determination ...
The Connétable of St. John : So what pressure ...
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
Today is the last day of the public element. I think it was published again, was it not, and advertised. I think 11th November was the last day of that.
[15:45]
The Connétable of St. John :
So what pressure can you now put on him to get your licence, Minister?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: I have written 7 letters.
The Connétable of St. John :
No, what pressure other than just writing?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Pressure.
Deputy J.H. Young:
To be clear, your application is for temporary storage?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Have you spelt out in your application, or your amendment, how temporary is temporary?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Until such times that we can remediate. Or remediate with ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
Right. Does that mean there is an ongoing process of looking to long-term?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Yes. Long-term remediation, yes. Once we dispose of or remediate the asbestos that is there, there are other items still coming in. There is the report the other day; I think there was 24 hotels in the Island with asbestos. There is lots of asbestos still in the Island. In the old days you had clutch plates, brake pads and all sorts had asbestos. There is tons of asbestos out there that we have to take in and we will dispose of and/or remediate but it is going to be an ongoing process.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Are we still bagging asbestos materials and putting them into containers as we speak, Minister?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Yes. But the problem is a lot of it is not just loose asbestos. A lot of it is old boiler pipes that are clad in asbestos.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Anybody done any work on the amount of asbestos there still is to cope with on the Island, Minister? Do we know roughly whether we have got half of it or there is still half to come? Any evidence on tonnages?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
I am not an expert but I would say there is a lot more to come.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: It is a very difficult figure to ascertain but ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
How many tons have you got stored at the moment? Remind us.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: We have got about 1,400 tons.
Deputy J.H. Young: 1,400 tons?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Over how many years has that accumulated, roughly?
The Connétable of St. John : Ten, is it?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Was that the 1980s?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: No, it is longer than 10.
Deputy J.H. Young: Twenty years?
The Deputy of St. Martin :
When did we stop putting it into La Saline?
The Connétable of St. John : Four or 5 years ago.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: No.
The Deputy of St. Martin : Longer than that?
The Connétable of St. John :
My time as a Deputy was 18 years, sorry, yes.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: Yes, so you have missed a decade.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Slipped through a decade.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: It is about 15 to 20 years.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So 1,400 tons, so there is at least that amount again to deal with?
The Connétable of St. John :
I would say there is probably considerably more than that because I would not think we have touched 25 per cent yet.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
It was used in the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s and I believe sometimes in the 1970s even but it ...
The Connétable of St. John :
It goes back to the 1930s, does it not, and beyond?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: It goes way, way back.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
Jersey's development has been in line with asbestos being used as a building material, a very successful building material. It does not cause any harm if it is left in situ and protected from interference.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
It is only when it becomes airborne that it becomes a problem, yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
But that, as we understand it, Minister, is the need to deal with the backlog at the moment, is to put it into a situation where it is entirely safe.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: Correct.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
The Health and Safety expert looks after that side of things where it is in situ at the moment. But as hotels, old commercial buildings and domestic dwellings are renovated, more and more asbestos is being discovered and it has to be removed and treated accordingly.
Deputy J.H. Young:
For that material then. So what your strategy then is to store what you have got in different conditions, the backlog, and then currently look at how you would deal with this in the stuff that is coming in in the future?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Well, we want to deal with ... we put in an application to store it temporarily in an asbestos pit until such time as we can find a way of dealing with it, whether that is plasma arc, vitrification or other. But that is what the team are working on at present but there is still more and more coming in which we have to deal with.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Right. Ways of dealing with it? Are you looking off-Island or on-Island?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Both.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Both? Have you a feel for how long it is going to take to come up with a technically and economically-feasible solution for that?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: John, do you want to ...?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
The difficulty with that, asbestos is not an environmental pollutant, it is a pollutant that has an effect on human health and it is a very significant effect. The issue we have in Jersey is about our last temporary storage of asbestos was in old shipping containers. We stockpiled them at La Collette next to a fuel farm and it is the highest risk, certainly on T.T.S.'s risk register, as if there is any sort of catastrophic problem at La Collette, it could have a very significant effect on the asbestos containers. So we have been, since 2009, developing a strategy which is one of getting rid of that risk, which is moving the asbestos as a matter of urgency out of those containers into another form of storage. We have done reports and then peer review reports and lots of other reports and the conclusion is that we are going to be leading Europe in putting it into a specially- designed pit at La Collette in a fashion whereby we can extricate it at a later date for treatment. No one else has done this. Most people bury their asbestos in landfill sites. The French in some areas have used plasma. We have been to see the plasma plant, which we went to see last year. There are lots of technologies out there available. The difficulty with most of them is that it would require a lot more human intervention to strip the asbestos from the asbestos-contaminated materials. That goes against the precautionary principles adopted by the Health and Safety Inspectorate which, you will remember, these systems are not appropriate for Jersey. However, we have found a technology which is of interest and it is one we have been looking at for the last 12 months and we are currently in negotiations with the technology provider to perhaps run a pilot next year on this material. The key risk we face is the material is stored in containers and we have got to extricate the material from containers, put them in a safe area for storage with the engineering facility to extricate it at a later date.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
The Minister for Planning and Environment, Minister, has suggested that maybe you should move your stacking containers to somewhere other than La Collette. What is your view of that?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Well we have not been given permission to move it anywhere at present. But, as the Chief Officer has just said, it is in shipping containers next to a fuel farm, next to a gas farm. With a south- westerly wind it is not rocket science to see what could potentially happen. It is our number one priority to put it in a safe area for the time being.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Okay, thank you. I think we should probably move on if we can. The immediate one is immediately next door to the asbestos down at La Collette as well which is the ash. Could you just update us, Minister, on where we are with moving bottom ash and A.P.C.R. (Air Pollution Control Residue) off the Island or sorting out the issues with that, please?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Yes, indeed. It was the ... where are we? Updated ash strategy end of quarter 2014. As you know it was my election pledge 2 years ago that I would deal with this problem. At the moment it is out to tender for the shipping of waste for remediation and disposal. John, do you want to ...?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
Yes, the tenders are back on A.P.C.R. too. We have 600 pages of tender which we are currently looking at and that is a variety of persons in the U.K. and a variety of transport companies looking at it.
The Connétable of St. John : Do you need a licence for that?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: A licence has been granted.
The Connétable of St. John : Oh, good.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
So we have got all the approvals. We got the approvals in January and a Duly Reasoned Request was agreed.
The Connétable of St. John :
So we could have something in place by Easter? Or by Christmas?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: I would hope so.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: Definitely, yes.
Deputy J.H. Young: Any funding for that?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: I dare not ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
You think so? You hope so?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
I hope so, yes. No one is looking at the tenders at all or how much the cost is yet.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Can you just remind us, the stockpile we have at the moment of A.P.C.R., is that going in a different direction to the A.P.C.R. which will continue to come out of the plant as we move forward?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
That is an interesting point. We left a lot of flexibility in the tender because the A.P.C.R., because it is so hygroscopic it is stored outside, it is unlikely it will be able to go to some of the areas which require it as a bulk powder. So I think the stockpiled stuff has more limited solutions in terms of its ability to be recycled or utilised in another process. But, again, we explained that to everybody ...
The Deputy of St. Martin :
So you see us moving forward a place which is good news.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: It is good news. Fantastic.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Now what about bottom ash, Minister? Are we analysing it and is the quality improving?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
It is improving, yes. The quality of bottom ash has improved. Have you got the stats, John? Have you, Chris?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
Basically there is a bottom ash tender for export being prepared at the moment and going out. We are aiming to gather all our bits and pieces of what we know about ash currently and all our tenders for export. We are going to put that together in a single report which we will bring back to you by the end of Q1. That will be an update on the previous ash strategy which we have given to you. That will come back with all our research, our tendering and our pricing information which we have done since we brought it to you formally which was middle of 2012. That report will be our proposals how we intend to go forward in the short to medium-term over the next 5 years. So the pricing information which is coming back, we need to determine whether we can afford to that. We need to weigh that up against the cost of looking at the materials in situ in Jersey and need to come up with a strategy going forward which is approved by yourselves and the Treasury. We aim to have that report ...
The Connétable of St. John : What about heavy metals?
Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services: Sorry?
The Connétable of St. John :
How are we dealing with all the heavy metals within it?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
The principle is that, from our point of view, the heavy metals which are taken out at the E.F.W. (Energy from Waste) are moved. It will depend what comes back from tenders but in principle we will ship it as it is, what comes out of the bottom of the E.F.W., as much of the metals as can be. It will go to the U.K. as is and the successful tenderer will make a decision on how he processes that. If he can get more metals out of that and make the cash that is one side of it. What is left will then be a secondary aggregate for going into the ...
The Connétable of St. John :
I am talking about the mercury and things like that.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
In terms of what is going to go into the E.F.W.? Well, again, as part of the recycling strategy, we are looking at to do everything we can and changing attitudes and behaviours to determine what goes in in the first place.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Since we have changed the scrap yard tenderer, then we are not getting as many pollutants coming down.
The Connétable of St. John : No, I can appreciate that.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
We are not getting the bits of ground-up circuit board or the fragments of lead-weight from wheels, et cetera.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
I think there is a significant amount of work still to do to educate the commercial bulky waste users. Some people do not realise quite what happens to their waste when it goes to the bin. We are doing a very successful job with kids at school and battery recycling and things but I think in the commercial sector I am not sure if that awareness is quite there yet. So at the moment the recycling team are going to be focusing on pulling out more of the hazardous waste out of the waste stream and we have got to re-engineer our bulky waste facility at La Collette to allow better recycling. An example is treated wood. There is a lot of garden stick and things like that in there. There are lots of things we can look at but it is very difficult because there is no charge down there; there is no incentive to not bring it down there so ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
But how are you tackling that? For example, on the kerbside collections, batteries, are you having dialogue with the Comité des Connétable s over ...
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
The public are better informed now. When they go to the supermarket, often as not to the left or right of the doors is a battery-collection point and they are very, very well used as the officer has just pointed out. We have got our own recycling team who go around schools and informing people, and the children inform their parents, and people are responding to that very, very well indeed.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
It is a constant battle. Not all parishes are as enlightened as the others.
Deputy J.H. Young: But when do we stop ...
The Connétable of St. John :
But at the end of the day the ash itself it is all going to be exported, including the part that contains heavy metals, and that will be dealt with at the other end?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
I think at this point we have not made the decision to export. What we are doing is we have got information which we developed over previous years as to how we might process it and use it on- Island. What we are now doing is gathering some more information on the costs of exporting. Once we get that information together, we will make an update to the ash strategy and a decision how we go forward.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
There is an economy of scale for recycling bottom ash. We are slightly below that. Most of the plants in the U.K. and Europe that recycle bottom ash, they are either attached to massive plants or they are at a plant with 6 feeder plants into it so it has that economy of scale.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Is there a dependency on us achieving the right quality by getting these metals out of that stream?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young: There is?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So we cannot do that unless we succeed in ...
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: That is right.
Deputy J.H. Young:
... promoting battery extraction and all the rest of it?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: Exactly.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
So the question, therefore, Minister, is when do we stop using the carrot and start getting the stick out?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: We have not got a stick.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: We do not have a stick to use at the moment.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: I think just that we will be ...
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Do you not think technology would allow you to monitor what comes out of people's trash cans?
[16:00]
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Well, we know what can be poured out of the parish refuse vehicle, if it comes to that, but we do not go beyond that.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Well I think we may have to come back to that. Can I just ask you, have you re-thought your plan to import waste from Guernsey into your waste incinerator stream?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Discussions are ongoing at the moment. I believe Guernsey have put that work out to tender of which we are one of the tenderers.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So they are tendering independently for that?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: I think that is part of their policy, I am not sure.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Well I ask because obviously we just heard from the Chief Officer that there was an issue of the critical mass for the viability of export arrangements. I know in previous discussion, you have got it in your plan, you have made the provision for getting some money back for this.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
I wondered in view of ...
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
But that is a matter for Guernsey. That has got to go through the Guernsey States and through our States.
Deputy J.H. Young:
All right. I wondered though in view of all the work you are putting in on the ash and the issues you have had with maintaining the incinerator, whether you were re-thinking bringing in Guernsey waste.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: No. We are not normally thinking.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
Our door is open. It is whether they want to knock on it or not is another matter.
You will be pleased to know, Minister, we are going to move on to the final subject but you might not be pleased with the subject which is the scrap yard.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Yes, can I just say I have a special particular interest and I shall be taking no part in this discussion, so it will be the vice-chairman.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Minister, where are with the chimney, when are we going to see it removed and when are the other buildings near to the old chimney going to be knocked down?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
The old Energy from Waste plant is being dismantled as we speak. The chimney I think is early next year?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
Yes, I can explain that. The tenders for the chimney demolition, if they have not gone out today, they are going out tomorrow. The intention is the demolition of the chimney will start on completion, or maybe with a slight overlap, of the main building. The main building, the demolition contractors are planned to finish for around February of next year. We will have our chimney contractor on board by then and hopefully he will go straight afterwards. He has got, we are anticipating, a 40-week demolition period so it will be down third to fourth quarter of the end of next year.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Can I emphasise as well that all the contractors who came back with a quote all recommended dismantling the chimney and not blowing it up as recommended by other States Members?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
We have got operational areas below the chimney which are still being used. We have got the road, we have got other buildings, et cetera, so the option for some sort of explosive methodology is not there. The way it will be taken down is, there will be a scaffold put at the top and the chimney will be broken down into chunks about 1 metre by 1 metre. Or 3 foot by 3 foot. So brought down the chimney and cleared away at the bottom. When it gets to within reach of large excavation equipment, it will be pulled down from below, and that is the reason it will take 40 weeks. To have this very small safety zone around the bottom of it allows all the other activities to continue.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
If I could move up the road to the old site, Minister, could you just tell us the latest on the contamination situation on whether we have finished?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: The old site, do you have that, Chris?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: The old site?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes, have you got that?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
I think we are in a legal dispute with the previous operators, so I think we are unable to give any update on that at this stage.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
The remediation of the site cannot start until that is resolved?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: No.
The Connétable of St. John :
The funding that was jointly put in place by your department and the previous owner, that is still intact?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: It is. However, there is a ...
The Connétable of St. John : That is fine.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
The new Hunt Bros. Jersey Limited, Minister, is still working out of a small site at Bellozanne?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Smaller site, yes.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Smaller site? Is that somewhere near the chimney that is being taken down?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Is their business affected by the demolition of the buildings from the chimney?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: There will be a move required for them, yes. But we are ...
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Do we have an agreement in place with them where we promise that they will be moving to a better and larger site?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
Yes, the States have approved funding for a new scrap facility which we have got £1 million coming in 2014. The design team is looking up options for that with our favoured site currently being at La Collette. We have got to prepare a planning application and an environmental impact assessment which we will be doing between now and July of next year. We will be competitively tendering in parallel and will be hopefully starting construction in about probably August, September so we will be complete and moving the Hunts to a permanent site by the end of next year.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Have you had discussions with the Planning Department over this?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
We have had some pre-application advice but at this stage the scheme has been on hold but there are issues with hazards down there. We think we have got a solution to the hazard issues down there, so we are now just re-starting that project and our proposals feature La Collette and we have our discussions with Planning on that. But we have got to be aware it now goes through the full planning process.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Has any consideration been given if you are going to move the scrap yard to La Collette of a wider master plan for the area?
There is. Again, we have been in discussion with Planning on that. They have not got a La Collette master plan in place to guide us within that but they are looking at Fort Regent and the bigger area. So we are working with that and we have got a plan which is developing at La Collette which we will then provide to them which they have had, or they will have, full cognisance of.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: It is very early days yet.
The Connétable of St. John :
Talking about early days, a year or 18 months ago when this new company, Hunts, was set up, I was under the impression, and correct me if I am wrong, part and parcel we were going to have a local company being supported by a U.K. company. Is that still the case or has the local company more or less pulled out or totally pulled out and we have now got a U.K. company running Hunts Jersey Limited instead of Hunt Bros.?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Not to my knowledge.
The Connétable of St. John : CEO, do you know where we are?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
There have been issues of personalities but I think that has been resolved.
The Connétable of St. John :
So we still have got directors which are the local directors from Hunt Bros.?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
Yes. Yes, the directors are exactly the same as when they originally tendered.
The Connétable of St. John : Thank you.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Do we have any figures for exports of metals since the new company took over, Minister? Do we know if the numbers are increasing, is that working well, are they coping?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Chris?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
I think in general they are coping. It is a different process to how the previous scrap operator operated. They are exporting everything which they are processing. They would like to take some more if any more is available. So, yes, they have got capacity.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Is their restriction on site at Bellozanne at the moment a factor in their ability to take more metal?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
No. At this stage they are processing everything which they are getting and that is getting processed and transported off the Island.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
The site does compromise their operation. I think, is it less than half, Chris, of what they need?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: It is, yes.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
What they want. So it has compromised it. The benefit of their process is they are not stockpiling and then building enough metal so that it can be one shipload which is what the previous operator did.
The Connétable of St. John :
How is it moved off the Island where previously it was loose tip?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: Yes, it is containers.
The Connétable of St. John : Is it now containers?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: Yes.
The Connétable of St. John : Thank you.
The Deputy of St. Martin : So open-top containers?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
I believe so, yes. Yes. But again, first year of contract, they are settling and trying to find the most optimum way of transporting the metals. But we have had to compromise them on the site and I think they have done a great job in the commissions they have been given.
The Connétable of St. John :
Is there a cost implication to the department?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: A small one, yes. Yes.
The Connétable of St. John :
When you say "small", are we talking about a 10 per cent burden or 20 per cent, 30 per cent?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
We cannot charge them the same amount of rent we would have charged them for a bigger site, so we have had to compromise on our ...
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Can I just clarify 2 points as well? There is a bit of mis-information out there. Anyone taking scrap metal to the scrap yard is paid for it now. Plus the new scrap yard does in fact have a spares service for vehicle parts.
The Connétable of St. John :
While you are on that then, Minister, what is the process when vehicles are scrapped? Personally, I had a vehicle taken down there and I was asked to supply the log book which we sent with the vehicle; it was not a problem. Is that the correct procedure or is there another procedure that should be followed?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
The correct procedure is it is your responsibility as the vehicle owner to submit that to D.V.S. (Driver and Vehicle Standards) stating that the vehicle has been scrapped. It is the owner's responsibility.
The Connétable of St. John : Right, okay.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
The scrap yard does take the information from the log book but they should not be taking the log book.
The Connétable of St. John : Oh, right. Okay, fine.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: That information is then correlated back to D.V.S.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
So D.V.S. obviously know that that vehicle is scrapped and it is deleted from their database?
The Deputy of St. Martin :
On that subject, Minister, I think we must ask you, is there any information you can give us on the difficulties that we have had with the scrap yard recently over vehicle log books and vehicles?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
There was a problem there, yes, but that is an ongoing police investigation.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Do you have in the accounts, Minister, any projected income from the old scrap yard site budgeted for 2014? Were you expecting at the end of the contract at the end of 2102, were you projecting to have some sort of rental income from that site during 2013 or 2014?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
There would have been if the new operator would have been there. So if the site was not contaminated, we have put the new operator there while we built the new site at Le Coie, so there is a loss of income, yes, because we cannot ...
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Was that accounted for? Was it in the accounts showing as a projected income?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: We have accounted it as a forecasted under.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
So, that is money that is not coming in that you were expecting?
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: That is right, yes.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Can I ask, Minister, is there any plans in your head for what we might do at the old Bellozanne site once it is back in commission?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
The old Bellozanne site, that is up for discussion at the moment. The team are working on that.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
It is one of the sites which we have got which is zoned for waste management use. It is not our site, it is a Property Holdings' site, but we will be loathe to release that site because it is planning zone, so we will be certainly looking to use it for something else. We have got a fuller plan of what we are doing at La Collette and Bellozanne going forward.
Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:
It is compromised by its access so it is not as ... I think it is a great site for some of the operations that T.T.S. do because it is tucked away. As long as whatever the operation is is not too noisy, it would be an excellent site for some of our facilities. But the access is shared with the Co-op and a variety of other traders up there so it is not an ideal place for getting vehicles in and out.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: Well the access is owned by the Co-op with the site having right of way over it.
Deputy J.H. Young:
All right, thank you very much. I think that completes our agenda.
The Connétable of St. John :
Could you tell us before we go any further, though, before we close down, how are doing with the Phillips Street shaft? When are we going to get Snow Hill back?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
Phillips Street project is going well. We just got to the very bottom of the deep shaft and they are prepping up now for the tunnel boring to start. Our Minister is going to do a launch of the ...
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Going down it next week.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: Yes. A launch of the tunnel boring machine next Thursday.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Not this week.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Are you inviting the Connétable ?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: Welcome to come along.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: I am sure we can drop the Connétable down there.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
What is the projected timeframe, Minister, for boring the tunnel from the shaft through to the cabin?
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Actual boring it is ...
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: Boring is 3 weeks per shaft.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
It is going from Phillips Street boring through to Bath Street. Then the T.B.M. (Tunnel Boring Machine) is then taken along the tunnel. It is lifted up in Snow Hill, put on a truck, comes back, and dropped down the hole for the second shaft. It cannot turn around apparently and come back again.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: The tunnel it is going into, it is not wide enough.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Two separate tunnels.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
It is a very technical project, working a long way below ground in very difficult ground conditions but generally the project is going well. Generally still expected to complete by the end of February.
Deputy J.H. Young: Is it rock that ...
The Connétable of St. John :
That is one tunnel, what about the other 2?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: Basically there are 2 tunnels to be bored from ...
Deputy J.H. Young: Phillips Street to Bath Street.
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services:
... Phillips Street. They go below Phillips Street; they do not reach Bath Street. They intercept the existing tunnel just outside R.B.S. (Royal Bank of Scotland). So it is a single machine which will bore one tunnel at a time. Three weeks to bore the first one. It goes through, the machine gets broken down in the existing tunnel, goes on to a bogey, gets taken down on the rails which already have been set up for it, out at Snow Hill, on to a wagon, round, back down the existing shaft and another 3 weeks to drill the second one, back round and out and away. Then everything, the rails and the bogies get cleared away, and then there is some pipework I think to be fitted in the tunnels.
The Connétable of St. John :
So is it getting larger as it goes along, does it?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: No, no. There are 2 standard bores all the way through.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Sounds very impressive. So remind us of the completion date?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: We are hoping to clear the site February or March next year.
The Connétable of St. John : The cavern, is that going well?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: The cavern is all operating fine.
The Connétable of St. John : Is it full at the moment, Minister?
Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, Transport and Technical Services: I think it will be.
The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:
Except with this weather, it should be, yes. We can arrange a visit, if you like.
Deputy J.H. Young: Well I am going to ...
The Connétable of St. John : The boring tunnels, yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
It is an interesting discussion. It is 4.15 p.m. so I think I am going to formally close the meeting. Thank you for attending and answering all our questions. Thank you to the members of the public and the media for attending.