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Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel Quarterly Public Hearing - The Chief Minister
MONDAY, 9th MARCH 2015
Panel:
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence (Chairman) Deputy S.M. Bree of St. Clement
Connétable C.H. Taylor of St. John
Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour
Witnesses:
The Chief Minister Assistant Chief Minister Director, Corporate Policy Chief Executive Officer Chief Officer
[10:31]
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence (Chairman):
Okay, welcome to the hearing for 9th March ... hopefully, yes. For the purpose of the tapes we will go round and do the voices, et cetera. Obviously, people in the gallery and the public seating, you know the notice is on the wall about recordings and all the rest of it. Chief Minister and everybody in front of us, hopefully you will know the notice that is to the Chief Minister's left regarding the status of these proceedings. So, for the purposes of the tape and the recordings, my name is Deputy John Le Fondré, Chairman.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
May I suggest, between John and Paul, do you want to just put the microphone halfway because I think otherwise ... I suspect one voice might be very distant and I am sure you would not want your remarks not to be recorded. Okay, right, let us kick off. Simon.
Deputy S.M. Bree:
Okay, Chief Minister, I would like to just start this hearing by talking about the draft Strategic Plan 2015-2018, which was lodged on 6th March, P.27/2015. Prior to lodging this document, the Assembly held an in-committee debate which a number of Members of the Assembly raised some major concerns over the funding of the Strategic Plan. Many of them felt that the whole issue of funding had not been taken into account. My question to you is: because you are not addressing in the draft Strategic Plan document any questions about the funding of this, do you not feel that that should have been priority number 1, is how are you going to pay for this Strategic Plan?
The Chief Minister:
Well, no, I do not because you know the process that we are going through to deal with the balancing of the books and making efficiency and productivity savings and other savings as well. So that process is ongoing and there will be an addendum lodged to the Strategic Plan before the debate so that Members have the most up-to-date figures that we will be working to, which will help with some of the implications. A number of Members, you are right, I think, raised the financial issues in the Strategic Plan but we have to remember that the Council of Ministers has to by law lodge a Strategic Plan and then by law lodge a separate document, which is an M.T.F.P. (Medium-Term Financial Plan) which deals with finances, and we have been working on both of those together. You could argue that if we do not make changes to health and social care the financial implications will be even greater. If we do not carry out actions which are going to deliver economic growth, the financial implications will be even greater. So I think those 2 documents will ultimately come together and sit together and that is just under the law how we have to do them, as separate documents. But I accept the point absolutely that Members will need more financial information prior to the actual debate of the Strategic Plan.
Deputy S.M. Bree:
There is great concern with regards to the current deficit and the possibility of the Island running a structural deficit. How are you going to ensure that you address this deficit challenge and balance the books?
The Chief Minister:
Well, I have just answered that. That is what we will produce in the M.T.F.P. As you know, we started a programme of work right across departments to look at where substantial efficiencies and savings can be delivered because what the F.P.P. (Fiscal Policy Panel) in effect were warning us of is that if we do not act then there is a likelihood of a structural deficit by 2019. So I think Ministers and all Members have to make sure that an M.T.F.P. acts in such a way that we avoid that possible outcome. We know that our income is not growing as it has done in the past and we know that we have challenges arising from the ageing population. We know we have challenge of international competition and, therefore, delivering economic growth. So we need to focus on delivery of those strategies and at the same time focus on balancing the books, but I do not think you can separate them out.
Deputy S.M. Bree: Okay, thank you.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
You have said, Chief Minister, that there will be an addendum lodged before the debate on the Strategic Plan, so is that going to contain the outturn of 2014?
The Chief Minister:
I do not, as I said before, know exactly what it will contain but it will contain the up-to-date information at that point. So if we have those figures, which we should have by, I think, some time this month, then it will need to, yes, because that is what are we then going to do with that. Members need to understand what would we then do with those under/overspends, how will that help us in 2015 and then how will that help us going forward, because some of those things that we might not have spent might mean that we do not need to spend it going forward into the future as well.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
What I suppose I was getting to was I am hoping it will be the results for 2014. I am presuming, therefore, it will also be the revised and up-to-date forecasts for 2015 and then for the period of basically the M.T.F.P., so 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019; in other words, the impact of the Strategic Plan and what the financial consequences are going to be.
The Chief Minister:
I mean, we know that we have this choice. How much are we going to carry on spending on capital investment and will that be enough? How much are we going to spend on health and what are the implications if we do not spend that growth money on health? How much are we going to do the normal uprating by and, if we do those things, how much do we need to save in order to do those things? So, in some ways, the basic equation is not difficult, the difficulty historically has been how you modernise your public service but how you deliver savings and efficiencies.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Okay. Just to go back to the main point then, so from your perspective States Members will have up to date, broad, comprehensive ... a good base of financial information supplied in this addendum for consideration prior to the Strategic Plan debate?
The Chief Minister:
They will have a good base but it will not be as detailed as what will be in the M.T.F.P. because they could not expect it to be.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
No, no, no, that is accepted, yes.
The Chief Minister:
But they will have a good base.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
That is why I said "broad", I think, yes.
The Chief Minister: Yes.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Okay. Do you have an indication when roughly?
The Chief Minister: I do not, no.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: What is the intention?
The Chief Minister:
As ever, it will butt up, no doubt, to the actual debate itself, but in order for it to be useful it has to be a number of days in advance of the debate. I do not have the debate date in front of me.
Director, Corporate Policy: 28th April.
The Chief Minister:
28th April, so I would have hoped that we could have at least a week's headroom, but ...
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Yes, I was going to say I trust it will not be coming out on the Friday night before the Tuesday debate.
The Chief Minister:
Well, I hope it will not, yes.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Yes. Can I just say so do we because ...
The Chief Minister:
Yes, I appreciate that because you will no doubt want to have a look at those figures as well prior too, you know, from a scrutiny perspective.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Yes. Obviously at the moment it is about the M.T.F.P., but it is about the present M.T.F.P. that we are in rather than the one that we are going to be debating in September. Is it likely that the revised forecasts or particularly outcomes from 2014 will require a revision to the M.T.F.P. that finishes in 2015? Because obviously that goes back to the point made earlier.
The Chief Minister:
Well, if you ask me is it likely and without knowing the figures, I would probably have to answer yes, it is likely, but I do not have the figures or the details. If you just look at the economic conditions, then to me I would expect there might be a little bit of worsening, but ...
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
The reason I ask is obviously this goes back to the point that the requirements under the law are, as you know to ensure that it balances. I suppose the query is how does one ensure that action is taken sooner rather than later to address any deficits. Not so much about now but obviously in theory if one identified the likelihood of deficits I am going to say a year ago, not longer - you will argue that the 2 per cent changes are the ones that measures were taken to address - but how early in the process of each year when an issue has been identified should one be addressing the problem?
The Chief Minister:
Well, this is, I think, the lesson hopefully we are learning from moving to a 3-year plan that you need some flexibility to be able to do exactly that. It would seem to me, yes, we are going to address 2015 but I think we have some technical issues that we need to address for the next M.T.F.P. and that is that we are probably, while things are still difficult, going to need some sort of annual mechanism to change what we are proposing to do. I know that Treasury are thinking about that. So, it comes back to that point about the outturn for 2014. If things have worsened slightly in 2015 and we see what the outturn for 2014 is, we have taken the 2 per cent measures. I would have thought the first thing we do is look at what the outturns were. Let us say that they are underspends. What were the things we did not do? Do we need to do them in 2015? If we have not done them in 2014 and we have managed, can we manage without doing them in 2015? So you are using that to say: "Okay, we are just not going to do that then to help with that particular issue."
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
So it will be a reprioritisation of expenditure, basically, particularly ...
The Chief Minister:
There has to be because in the short term you do not have many other mechanisms.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Okay. Chris, do you have anything?
The Connétable of St. John :
Yes. I was just curious about a statement you made that once we know what our needs are for the Strategic Plan we can then work out how much we need to save.
The Chief Minister: Yes.
The Connétable of St. John :
Surely it should be the other way round: you need to find out how much you can save to know what you have available to spend.
The Chief Minister:
Well, they are not that different in reality because we know now that if we do not change the way we deliver health it is going to cost us more. So health is going to cost us more, so we know we have to make savings to deal with some of those challenges. We have said in the medium term we have to think of a sustainable funding mechanism for that.
[10:45]
They sort of work together, do they not, because sometimes you have to look at what your base services are and what it is going to cost. You have to look at some of those services and see, well, are we the right people to do it or can somebody else do it for us cheaper or can we do it differently. So they work in parallel, really, because you cannot just stop. It is not like in the private sector where you could just simply stop having a section of a service delivery if it is a statutory requirement. You have to work those 2 lines of thought together.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: Kevin, anything?
Deputy K.C. Lewis :
Oh, modernisation in the public sector?
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
No, hang on, just on this one first.
Deputy K.C. Lewis :
Oh, on this one; I beg your pardon.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
On the Strategic Plan, you have nothing to add?
Deputy K.C. Lewis :
No, nothing to add on that.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
You made reference to ... I keep calling it the decision tree on expenditure; you know, in other words what do we do and when do we do it and should the public sector do it? Then you talked about statutory responsibilities as well. Has a piece of work been done on that side of things, because obviously it certainly was one that was promised quite a number of years ago, or is it more coming into focus as part of the overall public sector reform programme?
The Chief Minister:
Well, there is a real coming together of what we have done over the last 3 years to change the culture and how people think about the service that they are providing. We always knew that that change of culture, that working together would mean that ultimately out of these programmes people would look at the service they are providing. So there are some things ... for example, we issue permits for all sorts of things which we have to ask ourselves: "Are they necessary?" The policing side might be necessary, but you still have to police whether you have issued a permit ... or not because it is about the person doing the right thing. So we have half the job, issuing permits, doing this, that or the other, and another half over here, and some of those are functions that might be statutory, but if we can persuade the States that we change the law so that you do not need to issue that permit, you just have the policing of the activity, then surely that is a sensible thing.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
So it is about mindset, as it were, I suppose, between both the public sector and the politicians?
The Chief Minister: It is, yes.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Final question, because you are leading us quite nicely or going into quite nicely an area that Kevin is going to pick up on, but I will just ask: do you consider that we in the past have broken the link between recognising what our income is and, therefore, what was available to fund expenditure? In other words, have we rather too much focused on what we need to spend or what we could spend rather than recognising the restrictions of the income that comes in to fund that spending?
The Chief Minister:
Well, partially you could argue that we have, but we still always wanted a balanced budget over the cycle. The challenge has been what is the cycle and how long is the economic cycle. The reason I say partially we have is because that is what the F.P.P. said we had to do. So, first off, when we had the economic downturn, it was spend the stabilisation fund, which we did, and then the downturn went on for longer than people initially thought, so then they advised to get as much spending into the economy as we could. There is no doubt that there is (and the F.P.P. are still saying this) a balance to be had between ensuring there is money going into the economy but moving back into a balanced budget approach. That is the delicate balance that we are now in over 2015, 2016, 2017 probably. So it is a challenge.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Okay. I think we will move on because there are a couple of other areas that we can cover under the next section. Sorry, I am just assuming everybody else has ...
Deputy S.M. Bree: No, that is fine.
Deputy K.C. Lewis :
Chief Minister, modernisation in public sector reform: are you leading the modernisation programme? Who is politically responsible for its successful delivery?
The Chief Minister:
Well, it is one of those functions which is really shared between Chief Ministers and Treasury and it has to be because it has those 2 elements to it. So I am responsible for H.R. (human resources), States Employment Board, but the Minister for Treasury and Resources sits on the States Employment Board, all the things about driving efficiencies. So, and it is fortuitous because Senator Maclean used to chair the Political Oversight Group for the last 3 years and now he is Minister for Treasury and Resources, so it is he and I, basically, driving that forward. I am, however, going to be politically responsible for eGov going forward.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Sorry, the Political Oversight Group for ...?
The Chief Minister:
Modernisation, savings, efficiencies; it is all rolled into one.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
So Senator Maclean used to chair it, you said?
The Chief Minister: He used to.
The Connétable of St. John :
So how are you approaching this modernisation programme in order to ensure its success?
We are already seeing it being successful. I think the challenge for us is has it been fast enough and is it going to be fast enough. I think we always knew that the first 2 or 3 years were going to be ... I use the term "warming up", talking about culture, getting people to work together out of their silos or their organisations, and we have made some really good progress in that regard. But I am the first to admit that there is still a lot more that we need to do to start to deliver the new way of working. So we are focusing, rightly, on trying to avoid the structural deficit of 2019 but we are still spending hundreds of millions of pounds every year as a Government. So part of the work is focusing on avoiding the potential structural deficit and part of the work has to rightly be focused on, and you cannot separate out from, how you are working together in a new way. So we have agreements with ... I think it is all apart from one of the unions, but even the members of that union are engaging and working together with staff right across the departments. We have all the pay group stuff and the work that has been going on with Health and Social Services. All that work has almost ended up with 2 outcomes: (a) it is going to move us to modern pay spines and performance management and we have made good progress there, but (b) it is providing so much more detailed information that is enabling us then to think about how we are making savings and efficiencies going forward. So the aim that we had for it is starting to be realised. You have the Lean Academy and the changes that are being driven there. So we are making progress and I think the only challenge that we have, and rightly, is that we need to continue, but at a faster pace.
The Connétable of St. John :
Thank you. So what is the timetable and what are the targets if you are to move at a faster pace?
The Chief Minister:
Well, we know that some of them are the targets for the figures that we are going to put in the M.T.F.P. and a lot of that is going to be about how we can work more efficiently and effectively together. We are having very productive conversations about departments working together and bringing departments together to drive efficiencies with regard to posts. Often with these things you do a lot of legwork behind the scenes before you can get to a point of public announcement of them, and that is where we are particularly with that field. I mean, I have a sheet of paper about all the projects that Lean is currently undertaking and some of them have longer lead times than others. Some of them are about making financial savings and others of them, at the hospital, for example, are about avoiding costs because they know that those people need to be providing services elsewhere, so about reducing waiting times, about keeping people out of the hospital. Now, there is a cost involved but it is trying to avoid costs down the line as well. I was thinking on the way here it might be quite useful if we gave the panel a confidential copy of all this programme of work that is ongoing.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: That would be useful.
The Connétable of St. John : Very useful, thank you.
The Chief Minister:
Because there is a lot and equally you might read things in the paper and think: "Oh, that is a good idea" but it is not badged as Lean but it is the Lean process that has helped people think about them in that way. It took us a while. That is the other thing about the slowness. It took us a while to think about how you are capturing the saving because with the Lean process you do ... and Alan and I were very strong on making sure that you capture what that saving is because otherwise a new service is just provided over here without any cost implication or understanding for policymakers and the recognition, as I said, that some of those savings are just about reducing a waiting time from 90 minutes to 30 minutes and then being able to model it.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
By "capture" do you mean identify or do you mean there has been an identifiable saving that gets effectively taken away from the department or, in other words, not spent, sorry?
The Chief Minister:
Both. Yes. I do not mind if it is not taken away ...
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: Yes, wrong terminology.
The Chief Minister:
... or I did not in the last 3 years, I have not taken either line now, as long as there is a decision positively that it is being used somewhere that we all know it is being used. Do you know what I mean? Rather than it just getting lost.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
In other words, we have saved £50,000 through this process; we want an active decision to spend £50,000 on a different part of the service; that there is a decision made at a political level to spend that money or not to spend that money and to take it as a carry forward?
The Chief Minister:
Yes. That is why we needed this benefits realisation work to be undertaken to enable that to happen.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: Okay.
The Connétable of St. John :
You did say that there were some amalgamation of posts.
The Chief Minister: I said there will be.
The Connétable of St. John : There will be, so ...
The Chief Minister:
But I equally said that we are not in a position to talk about all those publicly yet.
The Connétable of St. John : Okay. Thank you.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
It is a little bit going back, possibly through our respective times in the States, which worryingly now is probably up to 10 years, do you think the ...
The Chief Minister:
Oh, it is time we retired. [Laughter]
Deputy S.M. Bree:
Beg your pardon, Chief Minister.
Deputy K.C. Lewis : Gold watch time.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
I was going to say we are all looking young on it, are we not? Because we have had lots of discussions and presentations ultimately about savings and public sector reform in our political life, and I am sure Paul will have seen many more. One does get the impression that there is a much better, let us say, build-up on public sector reform now. It has taken a long time to get to where we are, so do you think that pace of change should have been quicker? Do you think we are going sufficiently quickly to meet (a) public expectations; but (b), possibly even more importantly, the actual issues we are going to have facing us in the next 2 to 3 years?
The Chief Minister:
We can always look back and say we should have gone faster, but some of the change I think that has happened over the last 3 years is fundamental cultural and mindset shift and some of the work, particularly of Lean, has helped to deliver that. I think for some stuff the frustration is that they have some great ideas but not everybody else is versed in the process and understands where the benefits are. Are we going to go faster in the future? Well, we have no choice because of the legal framework that we are having to work to.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Just a quick question from me before I pass off to my right. I do not like the phrase but almost we have, let us say, a joint leadership between yourself and Alan on the process. How often do the 2 of you practically sit down and meet and discuss to ensure that things are moving forward or is it Senator Maclean's responsibility is a certain area, your responsibility is a certain area, you each get on with that and just make sure you are co-ordinating? In other words, how do we make sure that there is a unified approach?
[11:00]
The Chief Minister:
We have done a lot of talking and conversations to get to the point that we are now at. Since we invited our external to support the work that officers are doing, we have got our first formal all- afternoon meeting today to go through some of the things, and they are taking a really good approach, which is we have some great officers and they know their departments and staff know their departments, so it is a matter of encouraging them in the work that they are doing and the thoughts that they are having about how they can save and work more efficiently and effectively together.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
When you say the external advice, is that the one that has been appointed very recently, the individual?
The Chief Minister: Yes.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Right, okay, as opposed to U.K. (United Kingdom) guidance?
The Chief Minister:
Yes, and as far as I am aware both will be there this afternoon.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Right, okay. I presume you do not want to identify them on the record, as it were, but yes.
The Chief Minister:
I think they are already in the public domain.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Well, in which case can you just confirm the names?
The Chief Minister:
Kevin Keen and Sir David Henshaw.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Right, okay. Kevin, any questions at this stage?
Deputy K.C. Lewis : Not at the moment.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: Okay, Simon?
Deputy S.M. Bree:
Yes, if I may. You mentioned earlier on, Chief Minister, that you are now politically responsible for the eGovernment programme. Previously, the Minister for Treasury and Resources was fielding many questions and queries on eGovernment as a programme. Can you confirm that this is a change?
The Chief Minister:
Well, in some ways, yes, it is but in other ways it is not because I am a figurehead that is going to lead. It was quite clear from my conversations with industry that they would like that to be the case. I was quite clear to them that I have an extremely busy schedule so asking me to lead something is like, you know, I do not have the time that others might have, but it is about messaging to the organisation, messaging to the outside world, to the public and to industry, that this is an extremely important part of modernisation or reform, an extremely important part of working more efficiently, and that by saying the Chief Minister, not me as an individual, was the political lead, was a strong message.
Deputy S.M. Bree:
So does that mean that you do not have confidence in the Minister for Treasury and Resources in delivering a successful outcome to the eGovernment programme?
The Chief Minister:
Not at all. It means exactly what I have just said: it means about messaging to the organisation, messaging to the industry and messaging to the public at large.
Deputy S.M. Bree: Okay, thank you.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
I have one other question. Anybody else at this stage? The only query, which you touched on, was effectively the fiscal stimulus advice. Has any assessment been done to look at what was the real benefit of the fiscal stimulus in terms of assessing it from the perspective of basically identifying reality of the achievements and benefits it supplied, assuming there were some, and also again it was all about learning for if further fiscal stimulus is required in the future?
The Chief Minister:
I think there was review work done but it is quite difficult in an open economy, and I cannot recall now when or what that was, to analyse it because what you are trying to do is analyse if something had not happened. You are analysing a negative, which is always extremely difficult. But I am sure there was work undertaken by the economics unit and we will just have to dig that out.
Chief Executive Officer: It was a review.
The Chief Minister: Yes.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
If you could possibly arrange for us to have sight of that, that would be very useful, I think. Okay, I will move on to statutory transfer of functions, which I was going to say for ...
The Chief Minister:
You are still waiting for my letter.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Well, I was going to say we obviously have touched on things. The panel felt it was worth including in the discussion as well.
The Chief Minister: Okay, yes.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
So my main question is that obviously we have learnt that in the creation of the new ministerial position with responsibility for commercial and digital sector competition, financial services was not to be pursued. Could you just possibly outline why that decision was taken and what was the thinking in doing the changing of that position?
The Chief Minister:
It was quite simply the issue that I spoke about earlier about we should be breaking down silos and continuing to break down silos across departments, asking ourselves how we can work better together rather than creating new silos.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: Okay. Simon?
Deputy S.M. Bree:
Okay. Following on from that, when are you planning to lodge the necessary legislation to bring into effect any of the changes or other changes that you outlined to the States about the transfer of functions?
The Chief Minister:
As you know, I undertook not to lodge them some weeks ago while you were thinking about what you would do. You thought about what you would do in that time period. We thought about the issue about silos and how we are going to work more closely together driven by the need for delivering efficiencies and cutting out duplication. You then got some advisers in line and asked me some questions, particularly about the transfer of Property Holdings, and I have not yet been in a position to come back to you formally on that, but I am hoping to do that this week, having hoped to have done it last week. Then I think I probably will lodge, but you have asked me to consider that as well.
Deputy S.M. Bree:
So will you be providing full details of what you are planning to lodge prior to lodging to this panel or not?
The Chief Minister:
Yes, because I will write to you, which is what we agreed.
Deputy S.M. Bree: Thank you.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Because we are trying to be constructive on that, Minister, and it is trying to deal with it the best way round. What I was just going to say which is certainly relevant to the promotion of digital and promotion of financial services; is still obviously a priority for all the right reasons. Why are you proposing ...
The Chief Minister:
It is an increased priority.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Are you proposing to put some benchmarks in where you are now to say: "Right, in a year's time or in 2 years' time we would expect to have seen certain ... whether it is economic benefits or certain changes in the forecasts for tax revenue coming out as a result of the increased focus that we are providing" to ensure that you are achieving focus and obviously tackling the right areas?
The Chief Minister:
Whether they will be focused in ultimate tax-take I am not sure, but focused on new businesses, increased money under management, perhaps a business licence or 2 for a boutique bank, number of fintech businesses, number of people trained or apprentice-type people in technology, those sorts of benchmarks, yes, because otherwise we will not know that we are getting value for the money that we are putting in.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
So in terms of establishing such benchmarks, what is the timeframe for getting those in place so that you then know: "Right, that is what the targets are"? Are they in place? I will assume not at this stage.
The Chief Minister:
Well, I think they are ... I do not know if they are in the second or third quarters but it would come on to some of the plans that we are going to be developing. So we will be developing a plan for investment and growth in the digital sector. We will be carrying on the work for the financial services strategy, and there are a number of work streams under that which have performance indicators attached to them. What is the timeframe for the digital ...
Director, Corporate Policy:
One of the items produced this year is a plan for future investment and growth in the digital sector and the other is a plan for future growth and development in the telecoms sector, and both are scheduled for quarter 2.
The Chief Minister: Quarter 2, yes.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: And financial services?
Director, Corporate Policy: I do not have that.
The Chief Minister:
That is an ongoing piece of work so I do not know the ...
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Okay. I mean, to use your example, obviously if you get, I do not know, 3 entities for fintech coming in which employ 5 new people at a certain level, in theory you can equate that into some form of tax return and/or you should be able to equate that into some form of economic return ... economic benefit, rather. So, yes, all the things you listed were ...
The Chief Minister:
Yes, and it is probably about jobs, and that as much as anything else because, on the other hand of course, we know we still have this consolidation going on and jobs in other bits of the industry falling away.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
In financial services, yes. Okay.
The Chief Minister:
But it is interesting when you see that financial services over the last 2 or 3 years has grown again. So some of the work that we are doing and the concerns about mitigating the consolidation has been positive, and you want to know that as well. You want to know (a) where a policy is failing so you can either amend it and improve it, or stop putting money into it, to allocate it somewhere else.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
When you say it has grown, is that in terms of ...
The Chief Minister: Jobs.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: In terms of jobs?
The Chief Minister: Yes.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: In which sectors?
The Chief Minister:
I do not have the details here but I think it is about 12.5 now, is it not, and it dropped down to just around 12 and has grown again, but that is from a high of 13.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: Any questions? Simon?
Deputy S.M. Bree: No, I am fine.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Is this to go on to the next section, Kevin, or are ...?
Deputy K.C. Lewis :
Just a brief question. Obviously we are all very keen to see the digital rollout, but do the apparent problems with the fibre-optic installation concern you, Chief Minister?
The Chief Minister:
Well, they concern me in the regard that fibre to the home and the fibre-optic rollout is ... we are currently ahead of the curve but we are in danger of not being, and it is a basic platform in order to really develop an important technology sector. So it is something that needs to be a given, so I am concerned in that regard. With regard to the actual operational areas, I know that the Minister for Treasury and Resources has met frequently and is in frequent contact with J.T. (Jersey Telecom) and J.T. understand the Government policy that this should be speeded up, not slowed down, for those reasons. They are working with their providers to try and ensure that that happens.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Thanks very much. We will move on to you.
Deputy K.C. Lewis :
Okay, next one, equal marriage and partnership. One of the key commitments made in the options paper report was to bring forward legislation to allow same-sex couples to get married in civil and religious ceremonies by the end of 2017. What communication has taken place to date with the relevant parties with regards to bringing this legislation forward?
The Chief Minister:
Well, hopefully relevant parties have been involved since I took on the role of, first of all, doing a consultation and then delivering this piece of legislation. I think I last sat in a room with relevant parties prior to the publication of that report, but I know that my officers continue to be in conversation with relevant parties having meetings about this particular issue. Asking the States for a decision is going to take slightly longer than we initially thought because the Law Commission are doing a piece of work about divorce law. That was something that we talk about in that paper because it was quite an important point for a lot of respondents about whether it would mean you had to move to a no-fault divorce. A number of respondents felt strongly that divorce should not be made easier. Yes, perhaps the stress of the administration should be dealt with, but the principle of easily being able to get divorced ... a number of respondents did not want to see that weakened. I know this was the same discussion that was had in the U.K. when they introduced this legislation.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: Anybody want to come in?
[11:15]
The Connétable of St. John :
Yes. My one concern is will this new legislation reduce the litigation, because some divorces can be prohibitively expensive?
The Chief Minister:
Yes, and that is what has driven the Law Commission and the legal profession to ask for some changes in the divorce law. I can understand from their perspective why they want to do it, but the overwhelming message from respondents to the consultation was that family is important and Government should be doing things to strengthen family, not make it easier for families to move apart. It is a balance that we are going to have to see what the results of their work is and then make some policy decisions about it.
Assistant Chief Minister:
If I could just add to that, the Access to Justice Review, which I am chairing, is very aware that this is an issue for all families about if they do get into difficulty and if they need to separate, then they need to find a way which is not too conflicting and too argumentative. They need to be able to achieve that, and that is something that, whether it be court rules or whether there is something that needs to be done with our own legislation, we want to ensure that families can, when they need to, separate in a peaceful way for the benefit of the whole family.
The Connétable of St. John :
Exactly. There are cases when separation unfortunately is the best way forward, very often for the children, and this is one of my concerns is that that needs to be facilitated in the right way.
Assistant Chief Minister: Yes.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
So at the moment then, presumably because you will need to make a co-ordinated approach on the thing, is the actual lodging of all the legislation just on hold until one sees the ...?
The Chief Minister:
Yes, and it is not a ... sorry, what is the new ...?
Director, Corporate Policy:
Just talking about the R. and P. (report and proposition) and an in-principle debate. We were aiming for end of quarter 1 because of the time the Law Commission would have to take ...
The Chief Minister:
But that does not delay the ultimate implementation because the work about divorce is part of the programme as well. It is just being undertaken slightly earlier than it might have been.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
It does not delay it ultimately, no. Okay.
Deputy K.C. Lewis :
Another key commitment was develop a family policy statement by the end of 2015. The policy would set out what the States would do to support families and marriage in all their forms. How is this progressing? [Laughter]
The Chief Minister:
I am looking to my social policy guru. It is progressing, but I do not think we have the detail of it. It is the commitment that we gave about 1,001 Days and early intervention is all part of that, getting an individual in place or an existing individual who is in place, working on another one, to lead that and drive that. Thinking about how our services to vulnerable families are provided is all part of that. So there is a lot of thinking being done but I do not have an actual timescale in front of me.
Director, Corporate Policy: This year, quarter 4 ...
The Chief Minister:
Yes, is when we will produce that, yes.
Assistant Chief Minister:
There are a lot of social policy matters which we would have liked to have progressed a bit speedier, but we do have a limited resource within the department, unfortunately, so we need to do our best. It is one of our priorities to achieve it.
Deputy K.C. Lewis :
Could you give an overall update on other key commitments in the option paper?
The Chief Minister:
No, other than that we [Laughter] ... caught us out there. Do we have a copy of the paper with us and we can run through? As far as I am aware, not one of them is offline. They are all progressing.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: Okay. Are we all ...?
Assistant Chief Minister:
We were not prepared for that question.
The Chief Minister: Good question.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
A good question is one you cannot answer, is it? [Laughter] Okay, that is the benchmark, one. We have to get 2 next time round. Okay, Simon.
Deputy S.M. Bree:
To move on to population and migration, last year there was an undertaking from the Chief Minister's Department that a post-implementation review of the Control of Housing and Work Law would be carried out. As yet, we have not received that review and I was wondering what your department has done since the previous Corporate Services sub-panel undertook its review of the Control of Housing and Work (Jersey) Law.
The Chief Minister:
Paul has delegated authority for this and Freedom of Information, so I will be quiet for a little bit, if I can. If I can; we know I struggle with ...
Assistant Chief Minister:
Certainly, there is a recognition that the implementation review was going to be carried out and there was a review, to a certain extent, carried out, but it was not completed fully. There is some more work to be done with that and we know that, for instance, the population numbers the Statistics Unit are publishing in June will help to give us an indication of how the policy has been working. Certainly, with regard to how the law works, there have been some changes. You will have seen that the Population Office itself has moved to Social Security so there is a lot of good working between the Social Security Department ... their Compliance team are now working together with the Population Office Compliance team. That has been a great improvement and there is things been happening. We did not wait for the review and do nothing. We have been doing things and gradually changing things and improving things as things have been going on with the resources that we have. I do not know if Paul has anything else he wanted to add.
Director, Corporate Policy:
Just very briefly, the law remains a relatively new law and there are 2 sides that we looked at when we thought about post-implementation review 12 months after, so the back end of last year. One was administration and the other was technicalities around the drafting of the law.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
I think it was July last year, was it not?
Director, Corporate Policy: July last year.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: It was not the back end.
Director, Corporate Policy:
Yes, so July was 12 months in, conducted the review around that time and then over the summer. Once I was around the administration and it was fairly evident that having an administration office at Jubilee Wharf and having an administration office at La Motte Street was not appropriate, so on 1st December Population Office staff moved up to La Motte Street. So that was one side of the post-implementation review, if you like, but it is an ongoing process so we need to review the success of that change and what further changes we might need to be making to the structure. The other side was minor, relatively minor, drafting changes that we think need to be done, mainly around compliance powers and some penalties. I am more than happy to provide a list after this meeting of those tweaks, if you like, that we think we need to make to the law.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: That would be helpful.
Deputy S.M. Bree:
Certainly. Sticking with the subject of population and migration, on Saturday, 28th February this year there was a report in the Jersey Evening Post with regards to a business conference or a presentation to the Island's finance industry where it was quoted that your Assistant Minister, Senator Philip Ozouf , stated: "Where you need staff, if the expertise is not in Jersey the Government will give you licences. We need that growth." I believe as well, according to the report, that you were at the conference yourself, Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister: I was.
Deputy S.M. Bree:
Firstly, can you just confirm that that quote attributed to Assistant Minister Senator Ozouf was correct?
The Chief Minister:
Well, I cannot answer on his behalf but it sounded correct and I believe that the quote attributed to me ... not all quotes attributed to me are correct, as we saw last week, but that one I believe would have been correct from the Assistant Minister's point of view, and the quote attributed to me appeared correct as well. I have to say that because the reporter is in the room. [Laughter] But no, it was correct.
Deputy S.M. Bree:
So can I just ask, do you fully support the comments as made by your Assistant Minister?
The Chief Minister:
It was correct. Sorry? Well, I will answer, but Paul is the person that administers the law. Yes, because I believe that it is quite clear in the interim population policy that that is the policy that we would be pursuing.
Deputy S.M. Bree:
So does that not mean ...
The Chief Minister:
The financial services sector drives economic growth and flows through into the other ...
Deputy S.M. Bree:
No, if I can just continue with the question that I was asking, please, Sir.
The Chief Minister:
... and they pay tax. Yes, no, carry on, yes.
Deputy S.M. Bree:
Because obviously it is quite an important area and I think it is of great public interest to see how the Council of Ministers is dealing with the population migration issue. Obviously, this report does infer that the Government, as your Assistant Minister refers to it, is basically saying: "If any company wishes to come and set up business in Jersey your staff will be given licences quite happily. If there is a problem, do come and speak to us. We will sort it out." So does this mean, Chief Minister, that you have changed your net inward migration target of 325 people per annum because obviously this is basically saying: "If you need licences we will give them to you"?
The Chief Minister:
If we had that many businesses wanting to come, and we know that the 325 is a planning assumption, then that would be a good thing because we are trying to deliver inward investment in the financial services sector and grow the jobs and grow the profitability of that sector. I believe that is quite clear in the interim population policy, but this is the man that administers it day in, day out.
Assistant Chief Minister:
The quote that is attributed to Senator Ozouf is correct and although it was at a finance meeting, that quote could be attributed to any type of business. It talks about if there are no skills within the Island for a particular type of business, a licence would be likely to be given.
Deputy S.M. Bree:
So just to confirm, if say, for example, you had a new business which wished to set up in the Island that had 1,000 staff, all of whom needed licences, you would be quite happy to grant those 1,000 licences?
Assistant Chief Minister:
I doubt that would be the case.
Deputy S.M. Bree:
I merely ask as a question.
Assistant Chief Minister:
I cannot imagine that would be ...
Deputy S.M. Bree:
If it were the case, would you grant those licences?
Assistant Chief Minister:
We would need to know the business case ...
Deputy S.M. Bree:
It was a financial services business looking to relocate its head office to Jersey; needs 1,000 staff brought in from overseas. Would you grant those licences?
Assistant Chief Minister: I doubt it very much.
Deputy S.M. Bree:
So that is contrary, though, to what was said at the ...
The Chief Minister:
No, it is not, because you are asking us to answer a hypothetical question.
Assistant Chief Minister:
No, those numbers are just totally out of proportion from the sort of applications we do get. We might get an application for a business to set up a boutique bank that might want to have some people who lead the bank, about 5 or 6 people, and they will employ 50-60 local people. That is the structure that we would look and think that was a viable option for us, but an application would also need to have some real benefit for the Island, like in creating local employment. That is the sort of decisions we would make.
Deputy S.M. Bree:
So it is not open licence season then, which was referred ...
Assistant Chief Minister:
We have not changed. The way we are dealing with licences is we look at each one to see if it is of real benefit to our Island, if it is going to create local employment, we are going to get some tax benefit from it. It would only be in those circumstances that we would be considering the possibility of giving a licence.
The Chief Minister:
If we went through the history of the administration of the Housing and Work Law and the previous Regulation of Undertakings Law, and I have had my ear to the ground, as it were, for quite a while, I cannot recall any situation of any financial services company coming in this scenario that you have just outlined. Even if there had been in the past, and I cannot imagine that is the case at all,
we all know round this table that is not the way the world works anymore. These companies are having to separate out. We have smaller general average ... well, there is a bit of consolidation in some of them, but the new companies tend to be smaller, employing fewer people.
[11:30]
Deputy S.M. Bree:
Indeed they do, but then again the number of companies that may wish to relocate to Jersey on an average, say, of 10 staff or 15 staff, particularly the hedge fund managers, which I understand is an area that Assistant Minister Senator Ozouf is very keen to promote, they tend to have very highly-specialised managers and, rather than being able to employ local staff, you are looking for a manager with considerable experience in risk management and hedge fund management. My concern is that obviously should you get, say, 30 firms who might wish to set up small boutique operations in Jersey, particularly due to the restrictions that are happening European-wide on hedge fund manager activities and risk profiles attached to them, that you are immediately up to 300 people new net inward migration. The example I gave I appreciate was slightly over- exaggerated to make the point. However, I think there is a concern that this does see a distinct shift in thinking as regards trying to maintain the planned 325 net inward migration. My question was, and I think it is a very valid question, if you had a large number of new companies wishing to relocate to Jersey for financial or tax reasons, or it could be destabilisation in their countries of origin, wherever they are from, would you give those licences?
Assistant Chief Minister:
It would depend on what benefit there is to Jersey. It is not necessarily benefits to the company, it is what are they going to bring to the Island for us. So that is the decision-making process we go through. Each one would be looked at very carefully and if they are going to create some local employment. Are they going to pay some tax? It is not just because things have gone wrong for them elsewhere in the world, it is a matter of what is right for Jersey.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
So it is about placing greater emphasis on the economic benefit, effectively, to the Island, would that be a fair comment?
Assistant Chief Minister:
Well, the decision-making we have is the economic and social benefit to the Island, every decision We are focusing on all the people that come into the Island; we have got to recognise there is a churn that goes on all the time, people leave the Island as well. So giving licences does not necessarily mean that it is just one-way; there are people who can leave the Island as well, so
there is a balance to be struck as well. So that is the information we will be getting in June, we will know how the operation of the legislation has happened for the last year or so when we get those figures from the Statistics Unit.
Director, Corporate Policy:
Can I just make a point on the policy intent with Interim Population policy and, from a policy point of view, reflections on that quote. Interim Population policy was very clearly focused on aligning migration with economic growth, which means the greatest value for migration we can get which supports local employment too. There was nothing in that quote that I thought was at odds with the Interim Population policy. The word that kept on being mentioned was "net"; and it is quite right, it is a net figure and we will know that in June this year when we have the population figures. The other thing to mention, and I think it has come out, is the proposition was that we would apply the law to support the planning assumption being used by all departments of net 325 to support that assumption. So that was not a cap, that was not a limit; we would use the law to support other departments.
Deputy S.M. Bree:
So when will you be publishing the post-implementation review?
Assistant Chief Minister:
It is an ongoing piece of work. I might be wrong, Paul, but we have just been getting on and doing the work and it probably had slipped my mind about publishing a review, but certainly we are just continually improving the way we are working.
The Chief Minister:
You published some findings at the point of the debate, did you not?
Director, Corporate Policy: Yes.
The Chief Minister:
So you could bring those together with the legislative changes.
Director, Corporate Policy:
Yes. What occurs is we are working on some legislative changes and what we need to do is give you a list ... I am sure we will come on to the agenda about long-term plan. There are population issues and opportunities this year we should publish.
Deputy S.M. Bree: Okay, thank you.
Deputy K.C. Lewis :
Just to touch on something briefly regarding churn. We have always had to bring in expertise to the Island but there has been a certain amount of contraction with some finance companies locally in recent months. I take it you will do all in your power to make sure that these people are employed rather than bring other people from the U.K. or elsewhere?
Assistant Chief Minister:
Certainly. When any application is made to the Housing Advisory and Work Group we have the advice from the Social Security Department, Back to Work team and also we have an indication ... well, we meet on a regular basis with Jersey Hyatt and they give us a good feedback about what they feel their requirements are going to be for staffing for going forward, and we meet with them and they share with us their needs and they have got a good handle of who is out there as well. So we always do challenge any application that is made to us to find out if there are people who are already in the Island. I certainly take your point.
Director, Corporate Policy:
Aside from efficiency and service, one of the reasons to move Population Office is so that it will be right next to the Back to Work team, so business licensing and Back to Work team decisions are taken together.
The Chief Minister:
But we do know there is a shortage of fund accountants and fund experts out there now. It makes me think that we 3 should go back into the private sector.
Assistant Chief Minister: Do not even start on that one.
The Connétable of St. John :
May I just come in at the other end of the scale rather than the bankers and those on reasonable salaries, and I have witnessed it myself: people coming "off the boat" is the quote, but basically with no ties to the Island, going to the Social Security Department, they are being given Social Security cards and off they go to work. What controls are there on those people coming into the Island, the manual workers at the bottom end, especially in this time of high unemployment?
Assistant Chief Minister:
The only place that they can work is in a business that has a licence that has the capacity in their licence for them to work. Since the implementation of the law we have been going through all the business licences, and you will have heard some squeals from certain businesses that they have had licences taken away from them because they have not been using them. So it is a gradual typing up of the availability of places where people can work. If somebody does come off the boat in the hope of getting a job, they may do, but they are not going to stay unless they do get a job because they are not getting any benefit from Social Security, so they are going to need to find work. The control is the licensing of the business and ensuring that they have got the right licence for their business.
The Connétable of St. John :
There are people who do quite literally come off the boat and they get that ability to work and they are, in effect, preventing locals from getting a job because they are taking the jobs. My question is: what controls are there to stop this happening?
The Chief Minister:
They can go and get a Social Security card if they ...
The Connétable of St. John :
Anybody can walk in and get a Social Security card and get a job.
The Chief Minister:
That is right, they can, but there has to be a licence for that category of job, and Paul and his colleagues have been undertaking a process of going through employers' licences to take out spare capacity in the ... is it still called unlicensed? Registered section. That has caused quite a lot of angst among the business community because it was aimed at dealing with that very issue. But we know that some employers do need some licences for unregistered.
Assistant Chief Minister:
We can try and move away from it, but historically there have always been people coming here to the Island annually and working within our community, whether it be in farming or hospitality or wherever; it is how we have existed for years. We used to be thankful of that, to a certain extent, but now we do have reasonably high unemployment, or we have got more unemployment than we would prefer to have, we need to ensure that the people who are on the Back to Work scheme, or whatever, do get the opportunity to go for those jobs. But sometimes there is a skills mismatch so there is some work to be done with getting the skills right.
The Connétable of St. John :
It has always been contradictory to me that somebody at the bottom end can come in, get a Social Security card, go get a job, whereas somebody higher up the social scale, or whatever term you want to use, has to apply for licences, has to be a 1(1)(k) or a J-category in the old terms, or whatever, and yet others can just come in under the radar, so to speak.
Assistant Chief Minister:
Well, they are still licensed. They have got to pay for their card and find a business that has got a licence to employ them. That is the system that we have, is controlling it through those business licences.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
That might be a matter for further discussion in more detail on another day, I think. Are we done in that area? Right. I am just keeping a vague eye on the time. The next area we wanted to just touch on was essentially, I suppose, the Council of Ministers and co-ordination, et cetera. We have seen the introduction of collective responsibility. What further evolution of the Council of Ministers do you envisage, Chief Minister?
The Chief Minister:
I am not sure we see anymore at this point.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
So it is working well and things are bedding in?
The Chief Minister:
Yes. It is people getting used to it, the public getting used to it, the Assembly getting used to it ...
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: People doing what you tell them ...
The Chief Minister:
It is about trying to work together collectively and I think that it as well is part of the change which is allowing us to think about how we are going to deliver savings and efficiencies differently as well, because now Ministers can decide together not one Minister holding everybody else to ransom.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
So the "differently" bit, if a department says: "The world is going to end and in no way can this department make an extra £1 million worth of savings", the Council of Ministers collectively could turn round and say: "Yes, you will and this is why we think" because you need to stand back and look at the overall picture. Is that a fair comment?
The Chief Minister:
Yes. I might not use it in quite those emotive terms but, in effect, yes. At the top of the Council of Ministers you have got the ability now to say: "We are agreeing to look right across departments."
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
It is a relatively detailed point, but it is just one that was identified when the question panel was being put together: "On 21st February 2014", no doubt a date tattooed across the forehead: "Council of Ministers agreed to publish a list of ministerial groups in response to the third recommendation of the Machinery of Government review subcommittee's interim report of April 2013." I hasten to add, I did not provide this question, but anyway.
The Chief Minister:
It was probably your recommendation, Chairman, was it not?
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
It was very much the recommendation of the group. But anyway, the recommendation reads, recommendation 3: "The Council of Ministers should be required to publish and keep updated a collated list of all advisory and oversight groups formed to progress the development or revision of policy." Indeed, in an answer to Deputy Young on the day, in which he was asked about a question on 4th March: "Is such a list going to be published?" and the answer here is: "The list will be published during March 2014, responding to each of the points" which is all about the constitution of the groups, the terms of reference, the membership, et cetera. Is that list published?
The Chief Minister:
That was published, was it not?
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
It was meant to be published and updated, and I presume it is meant to be on the ...
The Chief Minister:
I suspect it has not been updated since the new Council of Ministers has been formed.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Could you tell us where it is published?
Director, Corporate Policy:
It is not etched on my memory ...
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: There is a surprise.
The Chief Minister:
I remember reviewing it though.
Director, Corporate Policy:
Yes, it went to Council of Ministers.
The Chief Minister:
Yes. I am pretty sure it was published.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
So would that have been just a report or is it on the website somewhere, as in, not the States Assembly website?
The Chief Minister:
It might just be on the gov.je website. We might have published it even in response to other answers as well; anyway, definitely the work was done.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Could you just send us the link as to where it is? That would be helpful.
The Chief Minister:
We will do that for you. It is a good reminder that we need to update it for the new government.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Of course, because certainly I know a question identifies well over 100 of the various groups, I think it was.
The Chief Minister: That was your question.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
That was my question. But that is the feed-in that came through. It was not ...
The Chief Minister:
Do not ask me what date it was.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
I was not going to ask that one, but it was more about the quantum of those groups, the number of them, and I suppose the question that comes out of that is: how do they contribute to the efficiency and transparency of the government or are they part of the Lean process as well that will look at whether we need to have all of them still in place?
The Chief Minister:
Well, I think they importantly put a decision-making political layer into policy enactment, so I think they are very important.
[11:45]
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
I will just clarify: I think there are ones which do not have politicians on them, if I remember correctly, within the listing that was provided.
The Chief Minister:
Yes. That is because you asked for those as well, did you not, the 4 groups?
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Yes. I think that was caught up in the recommendation.
The Chief Minister: Yes.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Only because it prompted a little light bulb that went off in my memory as we were talking about that same report, it was a recommendation of the time, which has now just disappeared ... which was: "A public register of chief officers' interests should be accessible on gov.je and this register should be displayed alongside copies of the respective codes of conduct." I think my recollection is that that was, broadly speaking, accepted by yourself?
The Chief Minister:
It was, with some caveats about data protection and personal information.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
I think the principle was behind that, because obviously if you have got people with delegated authorities to make decisions, in the same way as politicians who make decisions have to make a declaration of interest, whether that principle should be applied to those people who are not politicians who also make decisions, and what progress ...
The Chief Minister:
We agreed a form that we were going to, did we not?
Chief Executive Officer:
Yes. For many years we have been making declarations which were overseen by the Comptroller and Auditor General, but they were not published. That is being reviewed and we continue to make those declarations on an annual basis.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
What is the view on publishing? In terms of the same type of declaration that politicians have to ...
The Chief Minister:
We did some work on it and we did agree what we were going to do. I am not quite sure what happened to it after that.
Chief Executive Officer:
I would need to check, but I think this statement of internal control that we have to sign as accounting officers each year will have those interests with them, but I need to check where it sits in terms of the publication process ...
The Chief Minister:
Yes. There were some things in that which went beyond what politicians have to do and we had a discussion, did we not, about what was appropriate for publication and what was not. And we ...
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Shall we just flag it up and leave it for either the next hearing or some communication can come back to us, really just to give us a little update?
The Chief Minister:
Yes. We will go and revisit that.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
My final area, and in fact Paul conveniently did touch on it, is when will the long-term plan be brought to the Assembly for approval? Is it going to be or what is the status of it?
Director, Corporate Policy:
We said 2015. We have not committed to a quarter. We have just lodged the strategic plan.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: I spotted that.
Director, Corporate Policy:
Apologies. So having done that now we are fresh and can firm up our timescale and approach to the development, publication and approval of the long-term plan.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Okay. Would you like to touch on what you hope the objectives of the long-term plan are going to be, Chief Minister?
The Chief Minister:
Well, we have done quite a lot of good work on the long-term plan previously but we have not fully briefed the current Council of Ministers or got agreement of exactly how it will be presented. So I think it is probably a little early for me to give a commitment, bearing in mind that I would only want to do that after the Council of Ministers had agreed something. But it is about setting a long-term strategic vision for Jersey and parameters in which we think we should be making policy. So is this policy in line with where we want to get to in 30 years' time, basically; so a framework-type approach.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Okay. So at the moment shall we say it is in the pending tray?
The Chief Minister: Yes.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
For my areas, I am done. Are you okay? Shall we move on to Kevin's bit?
Deputy K.C. Lewis :
Disability Strategy. Could you give an overview of the Disability Strategy?
Assistant Chief Minister: Would you like me to ...?
The Chief Minister:
Yes, please, if you could. Thank you.
Assistant Chief Minister:
Certainly. The process that has been gone through is that we have been pulling together a survey to go out to the general public, and there have been meetings with stakeholders to get the questions right, they have been testing those. That survey will be going out just after Easter. It is going to, I think, 2,000 households. It is not going specifically to households which are known to have somebody with a disability, they are going to the whole community. It is not going to be labelled Disability Strategy, it is going to be Health and Wellbeing; I think that is the title, Health and Wellbeing Survey. So it might perhaps have landed on their doorstep and people see "Disability Strategy" and they think: "I am not disabled, this does not apply to me." So it is really just asking questions generally about people's wellbeing and, from that, hopefully the feedback will give us the information about the general health and wellbeing of our community. Among that will be people who you would class as being disabled, but there might be some people who have mental health problems; all sorts of areas. From having seen some of the draft questions, it has not been finalised yet because the stakeholders have been looking at it, but I think it is really well pulled together and I think it is going to serve us well.
Deputy K.C. Lewis :
Which obviously ties into my question: when will this be going to public consultation?
Assistant Chief Minister:
Yes. The stakeholders have been working on it all the way through and, as I say, it will be landing on people's doorsteps after Easter.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: That is the survey, is it not?
Assistant Chief Minister: Yes.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Then that will formulate the strategy?
Assistant Chief Minister:
Yes. The starting position is we need to know how many people there are in our community who have issues with health and wellbeing and then we can work on the strategy.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Then afterwards, the strategy itself will then go to public consultation?
Assistant Chief Minister: Yes, of course.
The Chief Minister:
Yes. It is a mapping phase, and it is a piece of work, like the Charities Commission, that we are doing hand-in-hand with stakeholders because a big piece of the work is about education as well of the community, and that is done through the process of developing the strategy.
Assistant Chief Minister:
So when we are talking publically about it, we do not talk about Disability Strategy, we talk about Health and Wellbeing.
Deputy S.M. Bree:
If we could all amend our papers ...
The Chief Minister:
Again, I would suggest in political circles it will still be referred to as that because otherwise they will not know what we are talking about.
Deputy K.C. Lewis :
Just for clarity, I have an honorary position on the board of the Jersey Blind Society.
The Chief Minister: Okay.
Deputy K.C. Lewis :
What is the desired outcome?
Assistant Chief Minister:
Well, we need to be aware as a government of the needs of our community. We need to know how people are living within our community, if they have any particular needs which need to met and whether it is right that government meets it or whether it is right that voluntary organisations can help support them to live a good life in our community. I think it is for everybody to come to a view of what is the best way that we can support people who have extra needs, and hopefully we will get to that situation with a strategy of how to meet all those needs.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: Do you have a timetable?
Assistant Chief Minister:
Well, hopefully we will be in a good place by the end of the year to know what the strategy is going to be and we will be able to share that with everybody and get some feedback on how they feel about it. But we are going to build it up with the community, it is not going to be government saying: "This is what we think should happen" because we are working very closely with the voluntary community sector in progressing this.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Have you got a notional plan that we could have a copy of in terms of timetabling?
Assistant Chief Minister:
I have got one; I am sure we can provide you with that. Yes.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: Thank you.
Deputy S.M. Bree:
Your strategy that you are working on at the moment for Health and Wellbeing, how does this feed into the work that is being done with the Social Security Department on the Disability Discrimination Laws?
Assistant Chief Minister:
It will be part of it, certainly, it will all link in together. I am sure that the survey results will help to give information to Social Security with regard to how they structure any legislation which is going to come forward.
Deputy S.M. Bree:
So do you have any, should one say, influence on when that particular Discrimination Law will be brought forward?
Assistant Chief Minister:
Well, as a Council of Ministers we all talk together about these things and ...
Deputy S.M. Bree:
Can you give any indication when it will be brought forward? This is specifically the Disability Discrimination Law.
The Chief Minister:
I cannot give you a timetable or time of when it will be but I do know that it is the final attribute currently proposed to be brought forward for the Discrimination Law, because one of the reasons for that, or a major reason, is that you have got to have this strategy, you have got to have time for people to prepare for a legislative approach. So one of the things that businesses rightly worry about is what are the cost implications for their premises, which is why the thing that we have learnt from looking elsewhere (and the stakeholder groups have been very keen on this, one particular member who is also a member of Chamber) is that you need to educate businesses now about what is coming, so that when they are making changes to their building now they can think about the disabled users of their premises and their services. So you do not have a big hit or a big bang down the line and so that everybody knows how we can support those who are less abled in our community. So it is trying to turn it into a positive.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Is it likely to be proportional or is it going to be a blanket ... so in other words, if you are an employer of 5 people versus 50, what is the scenario going to be?
The Chief Minister:
Well, it is difficult, because I do not think they have really started to think about that, but if we are all trying to think about how we support those who are less able, then you have to ask can you exempt somebody so they cannot then work with that sector of our community or employ that sector of our community? You soon get into difficult territory.
The Connétable of St. John :
It is not just business size it is also historical buildings and so on.
The Chief Minister: Absolutely, yes.
The Connétable of St. John :
As a Constable, I am very aware of that.
The Chief Minister:
But most parish halls probably have disabled access now, do they not?
The Connétable of St. John : I think most of them.
The Chief Minister:
Because most of them will have done some work more recently and thought about it, and that is the approach that needs to be taken.
Deputy K.C. Lewis :
I take it when the Health and Wellbeing questionnaire goes out it will be anonymised?
Assistant Chief Minister:
I think there is an option for it to be anonymous; certainly, people have the option of putting a name to it but they also have the option of being anonymous.
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
Well done. All right. On that clock we are one minute ahead of ourselves; I think we will call the proceedings to an end and I thank you very much for your answers; I hope you have not been too scarred by that process.
The Chief Minister:
Thank you very much indeed.
[11:58]