Education and Home Affairs - Quarterly Hearing with the Minister for Education, Sport and Cultur

Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Quarterly Hearing with the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture

MONDAY, 9th NOVEMBER 2015

Panel:

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour : (Chairman) Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour : (Vice-Chairman)

Witnesses:

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture

Director, Education, Sport and Culture

Executive Officer, Communications, Education, Sport and Culture Head of Planning and Projects, Education, Sport and Culture

[10:02]

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour (Chairman):

Good morning, everybody, it is really nice to see you all and I am very pleased to see a nearly full public gallery. Welcome to members of the public, media and fellow scrutineers over there, it is very nice to see you all. I will just point out the code of behaviour, which is mostly common sense, and turn off your mobile phones, please. Minister, thank you for coming.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Thank you.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I will introduce myself and my panel first. I am Deputy Louise Doublet , I am Chair of the panel and I am also Deputy for St. Saviour District No. 2.

Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour (Vice-Chairman):

Good morning, everyone. Deputy Jeremy Maçon of St. Saviour , representative of District Petit Longueville.

Scrutiny Officer:

I am Mick Robbins, Scrutiny Officer.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can I just ask you, what do we call you now? Are you the Minister for Education or are you still the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

I think until we make that distinction, Education, Sport and Culture is fine.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. Just for the record. Minister, if you would like to introduce yourself.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Deputy Rod Bryans, Deputy of St. Helier No. 2, Minister for Education, Sport and Culture.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Justin Donovan, still Director of Education, Sport and Culture.

Head of Planning and Projects, Education, Sport and Culture:

Hi, I am Keith Posner, I am Head of Planning and Projects for the department.

Executive Officer, Communications, Education, Sport and Culture: Tracey Mourant, Communications.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Good to see you all and I will just give apologies for one of the panel members, Deputy Mézec ; he is off the Island, unfortunately. Now, timing; it is 10.00 a.m. now, we are aiming for an 11.30 a.m. finish, although we have got a bit of flexibility till 12.00 p.m. if we need it; hopefully we will not be that long, but that is there. Do you need to be away by a specific time, Minister?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

No. I need to be at the Council of Ministers at 12.00 p.m.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. We shall aim to finish well before 12.00 p.m., then. Minister, if I could just ask you if you have read and understood the statement there in front of you, please?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: I have indeed.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Lovely, thank you very much. There is one change to the questions. We have not changed the subject we have just changed the order of one of them; we wanted to start with the higher education question, which is number 6, just so you can get your papers in order.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So in March we spoke to you and you told us that higher education was being examined on 3 fronts. Could you provide an update on that, please?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes. Good morning to one and all. It has increased itself to 5 fronts at the moment now, we think, so I will, of course, be asking my colleagues to expand on any areas that you need more information on. But, essentially, it was agreed in the Assembly by the Chief Minister that we would look at and consider a loan system by March 2016. So that is one of the new areas in which we have increased that, although we have always been looking at that situation from since I took office, to be fair. We now have a proposal for a savings scheme and a lot of this that I will talk about this morning is going to be discussed on 23rd November at the open public consultation at Hautlieu. So a proposal for a savings scheme. Analysis of the current spend, because I do not think the public fully understand where we put our monies in terms of that £10 million, where the monies go, so we will be splitting that up and communicating that as widely as we can. Looking at what I call the Campus Jersey proposal, which is bringing into the fold all the various component parts that seem to be a little bit disparate at the moment, then consideration for looking at European universities for Jersey students as well. So that expands what was 3 at the outset to 5. Do you want me to go through each individual bit or should I pick up ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can I just clarify; so what were the first 3 original and the 2 ...?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

I will just go through them as I have made notes here. The first one is the loan system, which is the one that is agreed by the Chief Minister by March 2016, proposals for the savings scheme, that is number 2. Number 3 is analysis of the current spend, so people have a better picture of where the money is going at the moment, because I do not think there is a ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So those are the things you were already looking at?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Sorry, how do you mean? Oh, okay, I see. Yes, and fourth is the Campus Jersey proposal and fifth is European universities for Jersey students.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Could you elaborate on the Campus Jersey proposal? Is anything new happening?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes. We have been talking to all the various parties. There is one I have not sat down with, although we have had discussions with all of the individual members of the J.I.C.A.S. (Jersey International Centre of Advanced Studies), I think the Director has, so I will pass to him in a second. But the notion is that we feel at this moment in time, because there are lots of considerations going on around should we have a university in Jersey, and I think J.I.C.A.S. was the main proponent of that original proposal. The prospective view has changed somewhat since then and has begun to neatly fit into again what I call Campus Jersey. So the Island would have various offerings through Highlands, through Jersey International Business School, through the Law Academy, through Health and its nursing degree, which are now considerations of J.I.C.A.S., and a couple of other considerations, some of which I can talk about and some I cannot, because they are confidential. But we have a greater offering here on the Island, and that impacts greatly on considerations that parents and students will have moving forward in terms of accessing higher education.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

You mentioned that you can share some things here and there are some things you cannot. Would you consider maybe sharing some information with us along the way as you are going along?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, absolutely, that is implicit to me; the more we can tell you the better it is for everybody concerned. With J.I.C.A.S. where the changes come, and again I will ask the Director to expand on this a little bit, I think their original idea was a concept of a university mainly aimed at offshore students with quite a large number of students being accommodated at Fort Regent. That has changed considerably over the period of time. I think one of the things that has impacted on it is the death of one of the main individuals who was pushing this forward, which is a bit unfortunate. But they are now looking at a post-grad situation, and it seems to be at this moment in time privately owned, but I will just ask the Director to expand on it, because he has met with them.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, early days yet, but what we are trying to do are 3 things: one is to bring greater coherence and easier access to existing provision on the Island, because it has evolved over time. Secondly, is to expand that provision, so people who live in Jersey can have greater access to more provision and greater choice. Third, as the Minister says, is to support J.I.C.A.S. in what they are doing. The proposals coming forward are quite interesting; they are not proposals to introduce, if you like, a physical brick building as a university but to encourage international research to base itself here in Jersey. Of course, if you bring that research to Jersey you bring all sorts of other benefits with it, particularly in areas that make Jersey unique. So, for example, if you wanted to study marine biology, where better than Jersey; if you wanted to look at coastal patterns, tidal erosion ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So you are talking to J.I.C.A.S.; you said you had not yet but you have had some talks with them?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: I have met with them.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

I have met with one individual, but it was a separate issue; one of those things I cannot talk about. He stepped out of his role and said: "Can I talk about this?" and I said: "Yes, of course." So I have got an appointment next week, I think.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, and you have had some talks.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

I have met with them. It is early days yet but they are not looking for funding from the States of Jersey they just want to work in partnership with us. I think the proposals they are putting forward have some legs.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So have you given them that vote of confidence and your support just verbally? I know you said they do not need funding, but are you giving them that kind of buy-in?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Well, we have met with them once, that was a good meeting, we just need more detail and so we are meeting them again in a couple of weeks' time.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

The concept of the blocks, putting it together, it makes a better offering than the original thing, which seemed to have a problem in terms of its consideration ... what is the way to describe it, it would have had problems with regard to the Highlands offering as a possibility, or even the Jersey International Business School, but that, because of their repositioning, seems to have changed.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

We would be grateful if you could update us on that; that would be good.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I wanted to ask, obviously we talked about this in the Chamber and the Chief Minister made this fresh commitment. How has that changed the work that you are doing in terms of bringing it forwards?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

It has not really changed because we were always working on that, all it has done is given us a consolidation date when we can bring everything in front of everybody, I suppose, at that point in time. I was really pleased that he did it, to be fair, because it focuses people's attention and I suppose it has just changed a little bit the direction in which we were going, but we have always been looking at the loan situation, we have always been monitoring what happens in the U.K. (United Kingdom) and everywhere else, and all that sort of thing. We still have the same sort of difficulties at this moment in time; the new consideration that we do not have that we need to take on board is what may be happening in the U.K. if they increase their fees, so that is a new dimension to it all.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes. Just to clarify, so you said this commitment that the Chief Minister gave has changed your direction slightly. Is that what you have just told us about, that you were focusing on 3 things and now you are focusing on 5, or is that something ...?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

No. It is really about the loan situation more than anything else. These other considerations were the parts we were working on as we moved forward.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes. So the loan thing is the new part?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Well, it is not new it is just that we are now more focused on making sure that that happens.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Right, okay. I am with you now.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Are you able to give us any indication about how that scheme will work at this stage?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: No.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Is there anything else that you want to add?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Not on the loan scheme. The analysis of spending, is that just from the education perspective or also with the way that the tax system works as well? Is that all going to come together?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

It is, because as a separate piece of work prior to her resignation, Deputy Vallois was working on the tax side in her role as Assistant Minister, so we have asked her to continue with that work, which she has agreed to do, so that we get a fuller picture so the public do not think it is just from an

educational perspective. I think we have always said that we see this as being a combination of the state, the parents and the child. In the case of the state's particular part, it is to do with treasury and education, so treasury holding the purse strings.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

That is very good. If I just carry on. All right. So with the student loans issues, this has obviously been of great public interest and a lot of people affected about these loans. Have you had people contacting the department asking for help and have you been able to help them in any way at all?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes. There are certain different elements to this. I think the first bit was the people who had taken out those initial loans from the U.K., I think we are on record as saying that we did advise those who contacted us not to do that because it was not going to be the right thing to do. Post that situation, because then it created an emergency, we said to all of them: "Come back and have that conversation with us." Now, at that point in time, and I cannot remember how long ago it was now, almost a year ago I would have thought, only one set of individuals did and we were able to accommodate some things like that. The problem with them is a lot of them would not have contacted us in the first place because their earning capacity was higher than our necessary figures but, yes, we have spoken to them. The pressure seemed to be on those individuals who have caught themselves wrong-footed and are now wanting to access cheap loans, as it were.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

They are asked to pay it back in a lump sum now, are they not?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes. But of course the problem has been exacerbated by the fact that the banks just are not offering loans in that sort of level anymore.

[10:15]

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So is there anything that you can do?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Well, we have asked them to come back and for those that have we have tried to accommodate where we can, but equally we are in the same situation as we were before; we are not a bank, we do not give out cheap loans in that way. What some of them have done, we did not realise, they had not looked at the loan offered by NatWest, which is the £1,500, so some of them have gone back to it; it just alleviates, takes some of the pressure off.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So people could perhaps, if they are in that difficult situation, come and ask you for advice?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, always. Situations change and we understand that, so we will accommodate wherever we can.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Thank you.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Do you have any idea of how many individuals this affects?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: I think we did have figures somewhere.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: Was it 40 or 45? Something in that region.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes. The figure of 45 sticks in my head as well.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

We would have to check to be absolutely sure. Just to be clear, we gave them very strong advice not to do this.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Yes, the ones that did ask?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, because they would have exactly the problem they have now faced and they have ignored our advice so, although we are trying to be helpful, to be frank, it is a mistake they should not have made in the first place, it was against our explicit advice.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I am guessing there must have been some people that would have just gone ahead without talking to any of the other departments.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Well, no, we went out in public and made it perfectly clear to everybody: "Do not do it. You are not entitled to the loan system in the U.K." and they went ahead anyway, but we are trying to be as helpful as we can. One of the things we have to be very, very careful of, and certainly, as the Minister says, we will need to bring this to a head, is once and for all we need to make a decision on whether Jersey can afford a loan system or not, and that I think is a key decision to be made when we go back to the States in the spring.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

If people perhaps did hear the advice: "Do not do this" and then went and did it anyway, applied for a loan against the advice, what do you think that says about the levels of funding support that are available in Jersey?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

What does that say? I think these are people making their own decisions at that point in time, and as I said, I think out of the 45, the majority would not have been eligible for a loan in the first place through what we have. We have constructed a maintenance grant which really takes care of those individuals that are more vulnerable in our society and cannot afford this. There is a consideration, and that is part of what we are looking at now, is if we can widen those margins. Your fellow Deputy there did what he could to alleviate the pressure ...

Deputy J.M. Maçon: One tried.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes. But it was going to present us, as has been argued in the Assembly, with greater problems than we first imagined just to simply do that.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Can I just ask, when you bring forward your proposals in March, whether there will be any thought given to different options of what can be done or will it just be one solution? Because what I would want possibly to see is perhaps a temporary loan scheme, say for 10 years, which would then work in tandem with a savings scheme in order to bridge that type of gap. In that period that would then allow individuals to save up a fund so that the loan scheme would not necessarily be a permanent one but it would perhaps be a solution in the short term. So I am just wondering, while I know you cannot give me the details of those schemes, whether various options will be provided?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

There will be various options. Certainly, the savings scheme was one of the first ones that we came up with. That came through with my background in finance and the remarkable work of Andy Gibb, who has unfortunately retired now, so he had the same sort of considerations himself. What we used to do was call it "prefunding" at that point in time. Whether we adopt the route you suggested, I do not know at this point in time, but certainly there will be options of some kind or another.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Can I then suggest that the department consider that option?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Sorry, I interrupted you. I am just trying to understand what you said.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Are we not all?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So are you talking about having a bit of a phasing-in? Because obviously if it is a savings scheme, people who have children who are in secondary school now will not be able to possibly save, so will there be some kind of phasing in of different plans?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

I think what you are trying to do, and what you tried to do in the Assembly, is alleviate pressure on the individuals at the current moment.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Correct. Yes.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes. We will do what we can to do that but whether we reach any kind of solution is between here and the end of March.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Will it be staggered or phased, if you see what I am getting at?

I do not know, is the answer.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

All right. Now we will go back to the order that we have given you. Number 1, so Jérriaise. This again is something that we have had some public interest in. Could you just tell us what is happening with the Jérriaise language programme in schools, please?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Okay. I first came across this as Assistant Minister back 3 and a half, 4 years ago now. I think for me it is an important part of our culture, it is an important part of how we see the world and the world sees us. So it seems from everybody I have spoken to that there is a need to continue it, but what has happened over the last few months, and again, my Director has had a conversation with them just recently so I will ask him to expand, that we were heading towards a situation where there was no succession planning. So we had 2 or 3 individuals, but 2 individuals in particular, and it is an important note to make here at this point that they were not qualified teachers as such, but were teaching Jérriaise within our school system, who were heading to some sort of retirement without any kind of planning. Of course then there was the need: "What do we do?" So I think at this point we have considered looking at the current model that we have got and changing it to some extent and considering using qualified Jersey-based teachers to help acquire the language. There are some teachers, and I personally know of one in J.C.G. (Jersey College for Girls) who wrote a dissertation on Jérriaise who would be quite keen to help, but these are qualified teachers so it is a different sort of concept than we had before, and it will be more sustainable, I think, at this point in time. So they will be embedded in our teaching fraternity. So to reiterate, I think it is important that we keep it going. I do not think we need to do it in the current model that we have got; I think, to my mind, and again my director can expand on this, it has been inefficient. I do not think we have shifted the position of Jérriaise in any particular way. I did go across to the Isle of Man to look at immersion schools over there and to look at the way in which they taught it beyond an immersion school. There seemed to be no differential between them, except that if you were in an immersion school learning Manx you came out speaking Manx very well, but your academic results were not very good. If you were teaching Manx in the schools your speaking of Manx was not very good but your academic process was very good. So there was a balance between the 2, and I knew this because I spoke to a teacher who sat in both worlds. Equally, we are off to the Isle of Man on Wednesday to discuss this a little bit further, but they have shifted their position equally; they found themselves in the same position as us, that it has not been taken on to any great degree, it is a different sort of language that they deal with. They have, in fact, brought it back from the dead. There is a lot of consideration that if Jérriaise were to die, in other words if it was to phase out on the Island, it would never come

back. In fact, that is exactly the position that the Manx found themselves in and they resurrected it and has been picked up as a small thread of their culture. Director, would you like to add to that?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes. It goes back to one of our wider priorities. As you know, we have begun reshaping the curriculum. One of the reasons we are looking to reshape the curriculum is so that children learn more about the Island's history and its culture. We have started doing that work; we are slightly ahead of schedule on that, which is great. As you know, we are looking to introduce, for example, a cultural passport from next September, so that children have a right to certain cultural experiences and they can log them in their passport. But if we are serious about developing the culture for our curriculum then Jérriaise needs to be part of that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Would it be on this passport?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes and as part of the curriculum. So rather than rely on ... I am trying to avoid the word "amateur"; non-qualified teachers who are fluent in the language but not fluent in teaching, what we are looking to do is create a small team, 5 or 6 perhaps part-time teachers who are currently in Jersey teaching a modern language. The idea is that they will recruit them in the spring, they will start learning the language through the current Jérriaise team and be ready to start work in the autumn and then continue to develop in their expertise as they go. The beauty of doing that is that we have then got Jérriaise within, if you like, a community of language teachers on the Island; at the moment it is slightly arms-length, whereas when our linguists meet and discuss issues professionally and pursue training opportunities, the teachers of Jérriaise will be in part of that community. It also means that we are not relying on a couple of individuals, so if one member of staff retires or leaves the Island, we have still got a cohort of 4 or 5 and we can keep adding to it. So that is the plan. It is a relatively small budget, but we think big enough to deliver what we need to deliver. There is a slight complication in that, as you know, Culture, along with the Jérriaise team, transferred to E.D.D. (Economic Development Department) on 1st January, so we have been in conversation with colleagues in E.D.D. to make sure that we can carry this through. By seconding people and with very clever H.R. (human resources) people, I think we can make it work. It is important that they are employed, in the end, by the States of Jersey so that these teachers can continue to acquire credits towards their pension scheme and the rest; it needs to be part of their professional day. So that is the plan.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Is the amount of money and support that you are putting into Jérriaise being cut in any way or it sounds to me it is changing what it looks like. Is that correct?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes. We are due to make a slight reduction of about £29,000 in 2017.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Is that per year?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, that is a one-off cut of £29,000, and then that will be recurring.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: What is their total budget?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

About £147,000, I think, something of that kind. So that at the moment is in the schedule of savings for 2017 but, as you know, we have not yet agreed the detail of the M.T.F.P. (Medium Term Financial Plan) for 2017, 2018 and 2019, so that will still be up for discussion but currently, there we are. But with that cut taken out, you need to bear in mind it is also funded through a range of private donations; the team is very capable of acquiring additional funding. So we think the resources are there; what we need to do is to bring some coherence to it, some long-term succession planning, and have qualified teachers delivering it in our schools.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Are you working with the organisation that is currently helping with this to make sure their expertise is encouraged?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Absolutely, yes. In fact, we met only last week and this plan is with their agreement.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I am trying to understand this: you are moving from a model of native speakers teaching it, who are not teachers, towards a model of qualified teachers who are acquiring the language who will then be teaching it?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: Correct.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Have you looked at evidence from other countries as to what is the best model of teaching languages?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

We have, but the evidence can point in whichever direction you want and there is not a lot of it, either. It is the only way forward, really.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : What is the evidence saying?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Well, there is evidence, and a good example is Manx where, if you just leave it to people who just speak it and then have amateurs, if you like, working with children, there is always going to be a limit to the extent to which children will acquire the language. What we need, I think, is something which is sustainable and built into the education system and that is what we are trying to do. Of course, we may find that we do not have a rush of current language teachers coming forward, so we will have to see. I suspect we will; I think it would be an interesting development in their career. At the moment language teachers are saying they are not interested if they have got to give up teaching French, German or Spanish or, in one case, Italian, just to teach Jérriaise. But to do it as part of their weekly timetable is something that they may well pick up. We are discussing this with the primary and secondary head teachers Tuesday and Wednesday of this week, so tomorrow and Wednesday, and we will test the water and see. If we have no takers then we will have to think again.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

There are 2 other elements that I learnt from the Manx, which is slightly in the adoption of what we have decided: one, is that we needed younger teachers because they are closer to the children in terms of who is teaching that; certainly, in Manx, that had happened, so they had a slightly romantic notion of what everything represented. One of the young teachers who came along, rather like the Battle of X, was a guitar-playing young individual who knitted far more deeply into the culture of the school than just simply learning the language. The second thing was that it had never been sold, nobody really saw the value of learning Jérriaise, apart from it being a local dialect or patois. I would probably get told off for saying that, but that is how it is perceived, whereas when I spoke to 2 students who have moved into university, they gave me 2 insights that I had not heard of before: one was that universities would see them as a better bet to come into the university college because they had this other language and so the universities are always looking to expand their courses in one form or another. So that was something that made them unique and made them a greater subject for universities. The other was that they became code-breakers, so their ability to not just learn Jérriaise but other languages and speak part of that sort of mathematical background, made them a good bet as well, and that was something that was not kind of sold to our students. So it is just really to widen the horizons as to what the language means rather than just being an indigenous language.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Do we have the resources to do that?

[10:30]

For example, do we have, in terms of the basics, the archive: a recording of every word in the Jérriaise language, including the differences in the pronunciation between east and west, and the different words used in various Parishes in the Island which do not exist in other ones? Has that work been done?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: It has. The answer to that is yes.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

You do not want to be in a situation, for example with Latin, where everyone thinks that they know how it is pronounced, and what-have-you, when we do not necessarily know.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

There has been a lot of work done; it is quite impressive. In the meeting I was referring to earlier, the dictionary was brought out; it was almost like a ceremony the way it was opened and caressed. It was quite interesting; I felt as if I should be bowing to it.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

You have highlighted there; there was a slight dislocation in the differences between those who were teaching the languages and then if there were any grandparental authorities, they would go back to say: "That is not the way we say it" and so there were certain dislocations. You call it east and west; I do not know if that is particularly true, so I think this should pull it back into line with the common language.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So you do see some merit then in having those native language speakers involved in the teaching? Because there was some concern if that experience is lost then that does result in a lesser quality. So can you give some assurance that there will be some involvement still from those native speakers and that will not be lost going forward?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes. Well, the 2 teachers are not native speakers in the first place, the ones that we currently have, so you are absolutely right.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I am maybe not using the right words but you know what I mean.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes. I would love to see communities being more involved in that sort of situation and bringing the older community in; it validates their existence, if nothing else.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

When we spoke in terms of the Jérriaise team it was clear that there were 3 elements to this: the main element is teaching children, but also the 2 other ones, one is teaching adults, so there are some adult courses which are running, and we need to sustain those. The third arm is just, if you like, wider cultural issues: signs, posters, that kind of thing; making sure that it features in things like the Eisteddfod. So there are 3 elements to this, the main one being teaching in schools, but not the only one, and all 3 of those elements need to be maintained.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think we will move on if you have not got anything else; we have spent quite a lot of time on that.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: No.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. Thank you for that. Deputy Maçon?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Yes. I wonder if you can explain to us what is happening to sports in schools after the transfer of sports to E.D.D.?

Of course. A couple of things: first of all, Constable Steve Pallett will remain as an Assistant Minister, so having a foot in both camps, and Derek de la Haye, equally, whose background is obviously in education, will remain as the officer relating to that. So I am just going to read out a couple of notes we have got here. We have got a memorandum of understanding which will be agreed and signed by both ourselves and E.D.D. Head teachers of the schools who use the various facilities like Langford, Oakfield and Haute Vallée, will continue to do so; it is quite important in terms of our perspective that education is not affected in terms of what we already have, and so that will continue. This use will be at no cost to non-fee-paying schools, and rates will remain the same as is currently done. Schools will also have priority use of playing fields and sports halls at no cost in the same way that they do now. So from our perspective, in terms of where we see ourselves, what we have already got will be maintained during that period of time and beyond.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

How will things like the sports strategy, and all that, be developed? Is it all going to be E.D.D. and it will be for them to sort out?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Well, I think it is quite commonly known that when I was choosing Assistant Ministers, one of my first choices was Constable Steve Pallett as a sports champion. When I first came in as Assistant Minister, it was asked would I be a sports champion, and you can see the body of a resting athlete; I can see why they would absolutely make that conclusion. I said no at the time; I think it had to be somebody that was very specifically involved in sport, which Steve is, and has really picked up the baton, as it were; no pun intended. It is his consideration that everything you have seen, and you have seen recently we had to sort of fight in the States for funding of one kind or another, will be maintained under that. We have certainly got a sports champion in Constable Pallett, and I think he will continue in that role.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Thank you. Can you just confirm how the staff have been consulted with for the shift, with the move?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, that is through Derek de la Haye where we can; we have consulted where we have known what we wanted to do. They have been told all the way along - I cannot remember the chap's name now - through Barclay at Fort Regent. Where we can, we have communicated as openly as we possibly can; it is part of our consideration in Education to make sure we do that.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, it has been a standing business item. So at all the team meetings it is, if you like, a standing item on the agenda. So we did not think it would be standing for a year, we thought it would be a few months, but as it turns out it has taken a long time, so the staff are fully informed. To be absolutely frank, we are hoping, in fact we are confident, the schools will not notice a difference. All of the work that currently goes on will continue to go on, it will just sit within E.D.D. and run in our schools, so we are fairly confident. We have retained, of course, the outdoor education element, that has moved to the Youth Service, because that is just pure education, so that has all moved across, but the schools should not notice a difference. Those secondary schools that do not have their own sports facilities were concerned that they would not be able to timetable Wednesday afternoon or there would be adults in there. So the memorandum of understanding has been drafted and we hope to agree that Wednesday morning. We are meeting with the secondary heads again Monday morning to agree the final version so we can sign it off, and that should allay those fears. Other than that, the plan is the schools should not notice the difference; certainly the children should not notice a difference at all.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Just to confirm what the budget transfers will be to E.D.D.?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

We will just transfer lock, stock and barrel the whole service minus outdoor education, which I think is something like £120,000; the whole lot is going across.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So you have retained some of the budget for outdoor education?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Just the outdoor education bit, yes. We did talk about retaining control of the sports centres where the schools make use of them, that would be safer, but it is inefficient financially because the teams are so integrated into the sports system that we would end up having 2 teams and it would be inefficient, we could not justify that. So we need a memorandum of understanding so that there is an efficient financial model. But, nevertheless, schools still have access to those facilities during curriculum time, also before school and after school, of course, was a better way forward. So we hope to have that resolved with our early morning meeting on Wednesday.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Thank you. As we are here, I will sneak in a question which perhaps you may well not be prepared for, but a similar subject with Culture. Is it very much going to be the same model?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

It is different in many, many ways. So, for example, for Culture, the structure that we are handing over is basically a person, as in Rod, and some budgets and grants. So the whole thing will move across. The only complication there is the Jérriaise team. We did talk about retaining the Jérriaise team within Education but it is so integral to the world of culture across the Island. As I mentioned before, it is not just teaching the children, there is this wider cultural aspect to the team. So we feel that if they all were to move across together then we will second teachers back in through the budget and our finance and HR people say they can make all that work.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Just to clarify, Rod is Rod McLoughlin not myself.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : I was wondering.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Outsourcing your own Minister, that is an achievement. Have you got something on this subject?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

In the J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post) a while back, Constable Pallett was mentioning a sports literacy programme that he wants to introduce. Can you just tell us what that would look like in schools?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes. It is a physical literacy he was referring to and the idea of the programme is that children would be tested in terms of things like how far they can run or how high they can jump; basic tests in physical activity. They are then tested again some time later to see what difference has taken place. We had a conversation about it only last week in our senior management team where Dave Kennedy presented, and it produced quite a debate. So, for example, children get to run faster and jump higher simply because they grow bigger and stronger. It is very difficult to take things out. We do not want to over-test our children and over-assess them, so we will have a look at the best way to do that; whether we would just have samples of children and extrapolate across the Island. So, yes, the idea is that we would introduce a physical literacy profile but we have not yet decided on the detail of that; we need a lot more discussion before we get into that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

You mentioned over-testing, so do you believe putting extra tests in will improve the quality of education there?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Not necessarily, no. I think any time you assess a child there has got to be a purpose to it and that purpose ought to be of benefit to the children, not just our inquisitive minds; we have been curious about how children progress, but we need to know how they are progressing in order that we can help change what we teach. So we have agreed that we think we need to bring a programme in, but we have not yet agreed on the detail of what that might look like and we need some more discussion about that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So even though Sport has gone from your department, will you still have that control over exactly what is happening in schools, i.e. they will not be able to impose testing on the children?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: Yes. No, absolutely not.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

But it also shows you some joined-up thinking with regards to Health, so it is addressing some of the other issues about preparing children possibly for school day by allowing them some sort of physical exercise at some point in time and just cutting down on those obesity rates. In fact, it is interesting there was a piece on the radio the other day where in a Scott ish school they get the children to run a mile every morning. Did you hear it? Okay. It is fascinating. They do not have to run; they could walk, they could do whatever they like, but it has had a profound effect on the school.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

We should do that for the States.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Well, there you go, yes. I will let you go first.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I am just going back to my education. Of course we had the delightful Bleep Test, which was an absolute waste of time because simply you have to do it every year but no one teaches you in between now to run better, or anything like that, so how is that going to be monitored?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Well, the P.E. (physical education) curriculum here in Jersey is a real strength and it has been for some years.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : It has changed, maybe.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: It certainly has.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I would like to know how, during the Bleep Test, in between, teachers teach people how to run? Because I can bet you they probably do not.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

I think they do now; certainly in the last 3 to 4 years. I have been round, as you know, all the schools on a regular basis and P.E. and sport is taught very well here in Jersey. You will see far more expertise in our schools, so children are coached not just taught; there is a difference between the 2. When experts come in to teach the children athletics: running, gymnastic, teachers are in the room with the tutor and are learning alongside so when they leave they can carry on. I think it is very impressive, the current system, which is why we need to maintain it when it moves to E.D.D. I think things have changed since you were at school. It is a very impressive part of the school curriculum now.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

We look forward to some feedback; we will have to get some students in.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

It is a part of the curriculum where my job will be to maintain it rather than develop it. I think it is very good.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I am pleased you have mentioned that, you said about coaches going into the schools; I was glad that there was a project around that. Are you maintaining that sort of project?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: Yes, absolutely.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Good.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

The kids know the difference; if somebody turns up to teach them football and they have football skills, they know that this is not Miss.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Rather than someone like me.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

It makes a big difference. No, it is a very impressive part of our curriculum. If you have got another sports question, go ahead.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: No, we can move on.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, let us talk about Les Quennevais school, please. How is the consultation going?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Well, I think you are probably aware that the consultation has now closed, it closed yesterday, and I am very delighted to say that I have Tracey Mourant with me, who has almost single-handedly put the whole consultation together. But I think it has been an absolutely brilliant exercise. Myself and the Director have attended nearly every event that we could do. I think the public have really risen to this opportunity to have their say, so I am going to pass to Tracey now just to expand on that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Before you do can I just say that we have noticed how good the communication has been with the public and the school and with ourselves, and we are very grateful for that so thank you.

Executive Officer, Communications, Education, Sport and Culture:

That is great. Well, that was the intention from the beginning, so that is good. Before I came this morning I obviously looked at the responses that we have got in and it currently stands at 1,326; we will have a few more to come from Parish Hall s and from schools as well.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : The number of responses?

Executive Officer, Communications, Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes. Just to take you right back to the beginning, as you are probably aware, there were 3 options but 2 main sites, obviously one with agricultural fields, the other with a very popular and well-used public open space, so we knew, and it is reasonable to assume, that both of those would ignite some kind of strong feeling among the public.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: Which are they?

Executive Officer, Communications, Education, Sport and Culture:

So option 1 is to build in the south-east corner of Les Quennevais playing fields, where the tennis courts are now. Option 2 is the field south of Rue Carrée, which is the turning down to Les Ormes, and option 3 is a variation on that which also uses the St. Brelade Social Club pitch.

[10:45]

So, as I say, we knew that people would feel strongly, but what we did not know and what we need to know before we go forward with a decision and a planning application, is how strongly they feel. That is what this consultation was designed to do and I think that is what it gave us. Also, we did not want the usual suspects in terms of consultation; we knew that the people we really need to be talking to are the students, we also needed to be talking to people whose children will go there in the future once it is built. So we have really made an effort to target primary schools and people in St. Brelade as well who it will affect the most. So as well as 1,300 responses, we have 702 comments that have come in, and I have read every single one. The next step is to do a report in a similar format to the consultation booklet, so something quite accessible, easy to understand with an analysis of what everybody said and comments as well. Once we have that then that will go to the Minister for a final decision. The consultation has been a very strong joint effort between Education and Jersey Property Holdings. Every time we went out and did a street stall, every time we went to a school people from Property Holdings came. They transposed this booklet, I do not know if you saw it when you came up to the States Members' briefing into a grade A display which we carted around and took everywhere. It was really valuable because we were able to meet, in our 3 street stalls, over 250 members of the public and had time to really talk them through the options and they had time to ask us questions. It was very much a 2-way consultation and, as a direct result, on those 3 days we got about 150 leaflets filled in and then a lot of people went away to read the booklet, find out more and then respond online. So we have been to parents' evenings, we have been to school assemblies, we did a meeting specifically for sports users so that they could talk about their particular issues and then after that we had ... later on in the consultation, once people had time to digest the information, we also had 2 public meetings, one at the school and one

at the public hall. Ahead of those meetings we had the big display boards up, so people could come and ask the basic questions. There has been quite a lot of 2-way discussion with people in the department and emailing, things like that

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Have you found from that any key areas of information which people have frequently been asking for, and how have you addressed that?

Executive Officer, Communications, Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, we have done it as we have gone along. If people have asked us questions, we have responded straight away. In the analysis of the comments, there are obviously some things that have come up consistently. We have had over 200 comments that want us to protect Les Quennevais Sports Facilities, not just from a sporting point of view but from a community point of view, and in terms of family use that has been highlighted quite strongly. That has been by far the biggest comment. Some people are concerned about the traffic on La Route due Quennevais and there is more work being done on La Route du Quennevais traffic and the implications for the sites. But the intention is that the traffic will come on to the site - whether it is cars or buses - and there will be no dropping off on the main road; it will happen on the site. There will just be an entrance and an exit. Property Holdings are currently working with some traffic engineers on the details of how that would work and what it would mean. There are also traffic implications going through Don Farm and the back-up one to La Route du Quennevais from there, if we were to use option 1. People have raised quite a lot of concerns about that. Again, more work being done to analyse what that will involve. Traffic, the cost, and a few people have mentioned the potential noise pollution and safety concerns around the airport, so I know that Property Holdings are going to look into that a little bit further. Because options 2 and 3 are on the greenfield site, they are doing a visual impact assessment as well, which will give us a bit more information on those before we finalise it and go ahead with the planning application. There have been a lot of comments that show support for the concept of a new school. There are quite a lot of fervent comments that say something along the lines of: "It is about time, please get on with it." That has been quite a strong message in consultation, so it is good to know that there is support for the concept generally.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Do you know, with the existing school site, will that be returned to green space or public use?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

That is one of the biggest comments that ... going back to one of the areas that people are worried about. Tracey is absolutely right; it is the traffic and the transport. It was quite interesting at one of the meetings I think both the director and I were at where a bus driver stood up and said: "Actually,

I have been a bus driver on this route for donkey's years, and when you get the school built you will see the traffic reduced in its content." So it is funny how people's minds change. Equally, there was a woman who was all for option 1, and then came to consideration of option 3 and then came to a meeting and changed to option 2. So we have tracked people all the way along. But in terms of your question about what happens next, it is all about Property Holdings, really, at that point in time. That is one of the ones we have sort of steered away from. We know it goes ... it is in our consideration what happens to that site at that point in time, but obviously people have raised the issue and then Property Holdings said: "Well, we will come to that when we ..."

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So they have the final decision?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, they have the final say on what they will do when it comes to the time.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

But will you be arguing for green space and/or community use?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Executive Officer, Communications, Education, Sport and Culture:

Well, effectively, it will go back into the central pot of States properties, so we do not have say on it any more than anyone else at that point and that would, I imagine, be the subject of a separate consultation and separate discussions.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

During this process, to be honest, we have tried to avoid that question. We have said exactly what Tracey has just said. We are here to talk about these spaces, these sites and this school, not the old site, so that we did not get drawn too much into it.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Do you know if that will come to the States or will that be within the Minister's ...

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: I do not know.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : You do not know?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: I do not know.

Executive Officer, Communications, Education, Sport and Culture: The old site?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

The decision on the old site, yes.

Executive Officer, Communications, Education, Sport and Culture: It will not be anything that we have any say on, directly.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

It will go back to the Minister for Transport and Technical Services?

Executive Officer, Communications, Education, Sport and Culture: It will be as ...

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, it will go right back to the centre. Just one thing I would say, at the risk of sounding terribly patronising, but I think we ought to say it anyway. The level of engagement of the public was impressive, but what was more impressive was their insights and views; they are a very, very well informed community. They have read the papers. There were very few silly, uninformed comments. People read the papers, they took it seriously, and gave us considered views. It was well worth doing in terms of ... it is a community which is worth engaging in, because it has views.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

The quality of your consultation, I expect, has engaged people in a positive way.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Have there been any criticisms of the consultation process?

Executive Officer, Communications, Education, Sport and Culture: Not that I have heard.  [Laughter]

Deputy J.M. Maçon: They have not told you.

Executive Officer, Communications, Education, Sport and Culture:

There was some criticism. There were some people - and particularly when they came and spoke to us on the street - were concerned that this was a done deal and the decision had already been made before we consulted, and someone asked me to put my hand on my heart and say that that was the case. And I did, because it has been a genuine consultation. There are 3 options, and we did not know which way it was going to go.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

We, of course, wondered the same thing, but it has been so clear that it has ...

Executive Officer, Communications, Education, Sport and Culture:

The head teacher very publicly has said that she wants a new school, and anywhere is better than where she is now, and we have always been in the position that any of these 3 options would work for us as a site for a new school.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Of those 3 options, then, which one is best for the education of the children, for their needs?

Executive Officer, Communications, Education, Sport and Culture:

Well, all the schools will be the same size and they will all have the same facilities, whichever site is chosen, you know ...

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Educationally, they are of equal value. They all have different problems. Option 2 is in the green zone. Option 3 is a bit in the green zone. Option 1 will displace an awful lot of existing activity and sports facilities. So, as far as the kids in school goes, any one of the options would be great and, as Tracey said, we just want our new school. The sites have different problems. I would have thought, to get a 13 acre site anywhere in Jersey which is near to where the children live, is not going to come easily. If there was an easy site, we would have found it.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

If you had to choose just on that measure, and I am not talking about ... although obviously there are so many factors to consider. If it was just on that measure of what is best for the children, for their education, if you had to pick one, which one would it be?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

I have been quite explicit about my preference, because I thought it was important that if somebody says, you know: "Have you got a preference?" if you stand up there and say no, you would be lying, at the end of the day. Having gone through the procedure, having sat and endlessly spoken to Property Holdings and all the various people, prior even to the consultation, it became obvious to me, and I think it was even cemented by Deputy Tadier when we presented to him. He said: "I think there is only one option", and that was option 2. The reason for that ... and there was a change when the previous Constable, Enid Quenault, I spoke to her about it and she said she was very worried about the concept of losing a greenfield site. But essentially, when you look at that site option 2, mostly it is still a green field. A lot of the time it will not be used because it is out of school times, more often than not. The other thing I think I suggested to her ... there are a couple of things, really. One is, it is a buffering concept with regard to the new conurbation that is behind it, so it softens up that sort of concept. The other is that really we want a site that is going to be inspirational for teachers, inspirational for children, inspirational for the community, and I think option 2 really does that, at the end of the day, with the least amount of disruption. So that was why it became my preferable site.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Taking out all the teachers and environment and all of that, just purely on what is best for the children, option B or option 2?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Option 2, I think, yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, thank you. I think we will move on, as we are running out of time. Deputy Maçon?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Thank you. Looking at funding, which clearly has its pressures, and with the M.T.F.P. 2.2 coming forward, what are the casualties likely to be over the next 2 years, if any?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

We did not quite understand this question, to some extent. I think the word "casualties" seemed a bit provocative.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

We would never do such a thing. [Laughter]

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Where will you have to make savings and cuts? Whichever way ...

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

We are the Education Department, yes. Director, would you like to ...

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

We just have not done that work yet, to be honest. We have made the cuts so far. As you know from your proposition, thank you for the quarter of a million. Very helpful.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Welcome.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

We are coming on to that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think Deputy Maçon is desperate. [Laughter]

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Between the balances of growth and savings ... because we are a big department and therefore we need to make the savings the same as everybody else, but we have more growth than everybody else, and we have had that conversation before. Up until now, we have been able to balance those books and contribute to a savings programme without impacting on schools and children. But we are running out of places to go, so we look with interest at what the next savings round will look like, but we have not really got into that work yet. We have been so busy on making the savings we have already made and implementing the growth, so in pupil premium, for example, getting everything in place. So, as soon as we have that target we will start that work. We literally have not done that work yet.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Are you concerned then that this calculation that we did - and I am aware that there are different ways of looking at numbers - given that you have made savings where you can and you say that you are running out of places to go, is there concern that you will not be able to make any further savings without harming the children's education?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

We will struggle to make further savings without impacting on schools; that is the point. At the moment, as you know, we have a business plan which we are sticking to rigidly and pursuing, I hope, with some determination. We have the funding but we need to deliver that plan. But it is tight. It is the same in other departments. Other departments have made lots of savings but they are still running. We are getting to the point where we are running out of easy or easier decisions to make. But we cannot give you any details as we have not done that work yet. I think we are going to meet...

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

When does that need to be produced by?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : June, is it not?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, in the summer. So, we will do this work in anger, if you like, after Christmas.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

There were some issues with the timings of scrutinising the M.T.F.P. We would be really grateful if there was any way you could give us bits of information as you work on them, as soon as you possibly can so that we can ...

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Sure. There was a suggestion that we would meet informally.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes, you have an informal meeting coming up.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : That would be great.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

We could talk, yes. So we will keep you up to date with our thinking.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Or even at the hearings. Either way, if you can give us bits so that we can effectively scrutinise ...

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: I think we try to be as open as we can.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Absolutely.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

We want to maintain that and, where we can, adopt a practice, as you described I think very early on in the process, of you helping us to get to that point. And you have. Thank you very much for the ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

We have the same aims, have we not? We are looking to see what is best for the children, so ...

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Absolutely.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

The Chairman has asked me to ask this question. What will be done with the extra monies obtained by E.S.C. (Education, Sport and Culture) during the M.T.F.P. debate?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

It will fund not quite all of it, but it will fund most of our acquisition of the new I.T. (Information Technology) system, the new M.I.S. (Management Information System) system. As you know from our various conversations, at the heart of what we are trying to do, there are basically 3 processes running that raise standards, and all 3 of them are fuelled by an information system which tells us how the children are progressing. Without it we are blind and at the moment that is largely unfunded, so that additional money will go straight into acquiring that system and I think we are talking about that later on. We are out to procurement at the moment.

[11:00]

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

I think also you are aware that Deputy Tadier was fleet of foot that day and managed to acquire £40,000 of that, which the agreement was that we would talk with Alliance Française and work out a better way in which we could accommodate what was set up in the first place, so that is what we have done.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

We have had those meetings and that new process is about to start.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Good.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Are there any further questions?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : No. Absolutely not.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Okay, thank you.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

When we get our new system, we will get you to press the button.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I tell you now, I am having nothing to do with that. I will ask you about the monitoring system. When is it likely to be in place? Also, we would really like to know about workload and how you said you are committed to reducing teachers' workload.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

I will just give the information to start with. I think the director has already indicated it is out to procurement so we cannot talk about how many bidders we have or who the bidders are, or anything like that. So we are a bit hamstrung in that way.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Do you have a target date for when you are going to start?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, the bids are to be made next week, we know that. September 2016 is our implementation, and then it will run parallel with the current system for at least a year, so there is a transitional point. In January 2016 we will confirm who the supplier is at that point in time. The procurement has also been aligned with the Health Department, so there are savings in that sort of context. Do you want to expand a little bit?

Yes, acquiring the system will take us until 2016. Keith Posner is leading on this, and might be able to give you some of the detail. Acquiring the system is one thing. Getting it used by teachers in classrooms is another. I think it is going to be September 2017 until we have a system and people just use it and forget what the fuss is about. In terms of workload, it should reduce teachers' workload. At the moment a typical teacher will assess the children during the day and will be making marks in a book, will be marking the children's book and creating a record. He or she at some point during the week - usually 3 or 4 times during the week - will sit at the computer and input that data. The head teacher will then manipulate that data, and when it comes round to reporting to parents at the end, reports are written. It is quite a clumsy ... an important process but a clumsy one. The idea of this system is that teachers will be assessing electronically as they move during the lesson. If they are lucky enough to have iPads - and more and more do - they will be assessing on iPads. As they assess the children's work it will go immediately into the system, immediately into the data system, and immediately into the States of Jersey system. It is a live data system. They can go back and change it, they can manipulate it, but it will save them a lot of work and effort. However, getting from the current system - the old system - will require training, will require support, and that will be done during the standard training times that we have for our teachers in schools. I think there will be slight additional work to start with in terms of extra training and running the 2 systems side by side, but long term I think it should save teachers ... more importantly than that it will give them really accurate data. They will be able to look at how their children compare to the rest of that year group across the Island. They will be able to compare how their children do against similar schools, towns or rural. They will be able to track their children as they have gone forward, so they will have the children at their school, they will be able to see how they do in 3 years' time. It is a much more open system. It is quite exciting, really.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I just have one question about the training budgets. Are they sufficient and, I take it, it will be taken out of the general training budget, or will it be taken out of the I.T. budget?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

The total budget for the project will include training for teachers, so most of the budget is acquiring the system, updating machines and buying licences. There is also funding in there for the initial training of teachers. Once every teacher has been trained and it is in the system, then top-up training and refresher training will just be part of the standard training programme. There will need to be an initial training exercise, because everybody will need to be trained, including T.A.s (teaching assistants).

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Okay, but that will not come from the £1 million a year from the I.T. budget?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

That is part of the budget we have at the centre.

Head of Planning and Projects, Education, Sport and Culture:

I was going to say, just on training, obviously the successful supplier will have some expertise in how you roll out systems like this, but we will speak to teachers and we will ask them about the best way of doing this, because obviously we are very mindful they use the system, and we see their field is teaching; so what is the best way for us to deliver that programme? It is certainly not going to be just a top-down thing. We are already starting to identify key users, different user groups within schools who use the systems, who have administrators, classroom teachers. You have, for example, exams officers and the attendance individuals as well. So all of that, we will get those groups, we will work out the best way, and that will be during 2016 from September.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So are they actually helping you to decide which one to go for, as well, before you purchase it?

Head of Planning and Projects, Education, Sport and Culture:

We are working with head teachers, and also we will be consulting with area specialists as well. The procurement closes on 17th November and then we go into this period where we evaluate and we have an evaluation panel which includes people from schools but also from the department as well. Then we assess different areas of the tender to come up with the scoring and therefore who wins the tender. That is how it works.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, the teachers I have spoken to are really keen for it for 3 reasons really. Both individuals here have amplified that to some extent. One is it progresses, it is live, so it tracks the progress. It is not retrospective. We do not look back and say: "We could have done this, that and the other." The other is that really, in essence, as Keith says, once the training has been done, there is only one input that needs to be done very quickly. I think the primary thing that really got my attention was that it is early identification of learning needs, so as soon as you have something you can begin to help that child at that point in time.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

I think it is worth mentioning on workload is that the beauty of this system is that it is compatible with the systems the schools are already using. So, all but 4 or 5 of our schools are currently using a

data system, so staff are beginning to get familiar with that. Most of our secondary schools use a different system. This system that we are acquiring will lift stuff out of that so they will not have to re-learn what they are doing.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I am just trying to understand this process, then. By 17th November, that is when you are making the decision on which system you are purchasing?

Head of Planning and Projects, Education, Sport and Culture:

No, 17th November the tenders have to be in. We then have to evaluate those tenders.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : I see, okay.

Head of Planning and Projects, Education, Sport and Culture:

I would just like to add another point in terms of the teaching staff. We have, in the creation of the tender document ... it is quite a thick document we tasked the tender supplier. Loads of questions about why we want our system to do this, this, and this. We went out and we consulted the schools about that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So that has come from teachers?

Head of Planning and Projects, Education, Sport and Culture:

Absolutely, and we set an electronic survey and also sat in a number of meetings with staff from all areas of the school saying: "What do you want the system to do? How can this be better?" So we are really, really hopeful in terms of workload, it will reduce the administration for teachers. But that is going to be a key, fundamental thing with this system. Not only does it provide the school with better information, it provides the department with better information, but it is just easier to use and more intuitive to use.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I just want to ask you, you say it is going to reduce workload because teachers will be sat with the child and they can just have their iPad in their hands with them and put it straight into the iPad. But the thing perhaps I would like to know more about is the assessment is not just collecting data for the purposes of storing it, essentially, and analysing it. Surely it is to give the child information about their progress and assessment for learning, all of that. So surely the teachers will still have to be writing in the books so that the children are communicated with?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, this does not stop them marking. The marking continues. It is a simpler system for tracking progress if you only do it once. At the moment, we are double-handling. Marking is always going to be there; it is a very important way of communicating with kids. The other thing that should be mentioned - we do not mention it often enough really - the thing that will make this system better than any I have ever worked with is that it will include all of the information on all of the children, so for example, all our special needs information will be on it, all our attendance information.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Is that linked with the Health Department, did you say, for the special needs information?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, so we are working closely with the Health and Social Services Department to see if we can either acquire a single system or at least if we acquire 2 separate systems they talk to each other, we can share data, so that when our people are out at education sites and attendance workers are in homes working with parents, social workers can pick that information up and can see who is visiting and what the outcomes are. At the moment we have a whole range of systems. I have worked in the past with very good systems to do with attainment and progress, but never had a system where everything is one place, and we are hoping that this will do just that; it will make Jersey quite special.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Do you envisage, then, more actual ongoing teacher assessment rather than a move away from sit- down testing?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, I do. One of the things that ... less of a problem here in Jersey. If you go to the U.K. and ask a relatively inexperienced teacher, say one of 5 or 6 years: "How are your children progressing in writing?" the first thing they do is go to their evidence pack and they get a ... here in Jersey they will usually give you an answer, because we have not yet driven out this notion of professional judgment. We still trust our teachers in Jersey and that is very important because in the U.K., teachers simply are not trusted. That is why we have the system we have. Whereas here we want to get the balance right so teachers do not lose their professional nous, if you like, but at the same time they are tracking each other very carefully, so they can change what they teach, how they teach, and when they teach it. It is a difficult balance to strike.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Do you feel you are communicating that to the teachers, that they are trusted?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

I am not sure we are actually. Most of our communication is directly with heads. I do not think we communicate that well directly with our teachers. But it is true of Jersey society. If you are out and about and you go to a dinner party in the U.K. and there are people there who you know are teachers, they sometimes do not admit it, they will make something up. Here in Jersey, people are quite proud to be teachers; teachers here are highly regarded as professionals, much more so than in the U.K. Long may that continue.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

In fact, that is a really important element. We discussed that very early on when we discussed the notion of autonomy and what our concepts of it were. I said it is about trust, as far as I am concerned, because it flushes back and forth. I thought, to some extent, and this is not a consideration of the past director or anything, but I thought the trust had been broken and it has taken us quite a while to build that back up again, and I think we have demonstrated because we sing from the same song sheet a lot of the time.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Is that a priority for you ...

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

... communicating with teachers and giving them that trust?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Absolutely. I think if the trust element is back up again, the notion of autonomy becomes stronger, so it is much easier for us to contemplate moving forward.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I am sure teachers will be very pleased to hear that. Just while we are touching on testing, there was something in the media about in the U.K. they are testing 7 year olds. There are new tests coming in. Will Jersey be taking that on board?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

We will look at it, but I am not a big fan of testing small children. I come back to that same point that teachers get to know their children. There is a greater need for testing in secondary school than in primary, because primary school teachers just know their children so well; they are with them all day, whereas secondary teachers are often with their kids for 45 minutes or so a week, so we are not going to rush into that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Thank you very much.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Can you just tell us what development is due to take place at Highlands?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I will just note the time; it is 11.15 so maybe we should be cognisant of that.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Okay, well I will be very brief about this. I am really delighted to be able to pass this documentation to you guys. This is the new strategic plan produced by Highlands, and I guess I am really delighted to say, even if you scan through it very quickly, you will see that it is suddenly clearer and it is much more focused, and it has strategic aims and ambitions ... there are only 4. There is a new rebranding; there is a rebranding of all sorts of elements of it. He has worked on the policy and values and what I like about it more than anything is that the first 2 "ambitions" as he calls them, as opposed to goals or visions or whatever - which I think is a really good thing to do - it starts with students, which I think is paramount because it is almost like the students have got lost in the past a little bit; more about the college itself.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So, it is University College Jersey, not Campus Jersey?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

No, no, no. The notion of Campus Jersey is my own, is a consolidation of all of those elements. So yes, it was a consideration that we needed to start calling it what it is and what it aspires to me. So, you move from students to culture, and then to staff and resources. So, it is very much placing the students at the heart of the college. You have the strategic plan there. He has rewritten the curriculum for 2016 which was published, I think, about 2 weeks ago. He has a completely new staffing structure, very much part of the consideration for what we did in our department. The curriculum in particular was designed with a lot of consultation with private enterprise and the Skills Board and everybody else to say what it is. Is it that you want out of this college to produce the kind of children that have an expectation of a job when they come out of it? We have a very high rate of job correlation related to Highlands College in particular, so we wanted to build on that. 90 per cent of the students leave Highlands and actually go on to employment, which is a very high rate. English and maths retained right through, and he has now introduced a Jersey diploma which will be regulated by ourselves. You have seen the rebranding and the signage and everything. In fact, tomorrow I will be taking the Governor around to have a look at both Haute Vallée, so he has one consideration of a secondary school, and ...

[11:15]

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Did you say "Jersey diploma" just then?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes, I did. A Jersey diploma.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : That sounds exciting.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

It is in the documentation, so perhaps we can talk about that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Yes, we will have a look at it.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

You can come back to deal with that. I think there is also ...

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: It is in the 6th form document.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes. The notion that Steve Lewis has embarked upon is to increase the offering. There are 2 new courses within that document, you will see. Yes, so offering more to the Jersey students over here so they do not actually have to go ... I know there is a need for some students to want to go away, but the more we can offer them over here, the better it would be.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Life skills. We will enjoy looking at that.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: It is very exciting. It is very different.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

It looks great. Do you want to elaborate?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I think we will just note this and move on.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes, I think we should. Okay, can you explain to us about the new growth that is happening in Early Years, please?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Basically, this fills a gap, in that where we have nursery age children, at the moment if we know that children are coming into our nurseries with special educational needs we have no resource to support them, so that additional growth is for that purpose. What it amounts to, really, is a wider team in terms of education support. So it will include, for example, a specialist in early years as an advisory teacher, it will include specialist support assistance and an educational psychologist so that basically what we will have is a team of specialists who will be focusing on a relatively small number, around about 20 children, in our nursery schools who have very specific special education needs.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

So being a gap in our provision. To be frank, had that growth been unsuccessful, it would have represented another cut because this is something we simply have to do. It is a moral imperative, never mind a professional responsibility. So we were going to do this and had we been unsuccessful with the growth bid, we would have made a cut somewhere else to make it happen.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, and so does cover anything with the 1,001 Days Initiative?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, it is related to that but this is very specifically children with significant special educational needs. Ironically, within the private sector, we have a budget that we are able to delegate down into the private sector but we did not have anything in the public sector. Which was an anomaly which needed fixing and this fixes it from 1st January. In fact, we have already started working with these children and we are going to try and cover it within our existing budget until we get we get to January.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

That is good to hear and so this covers some of the points on the 1,001 Days?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

But obviously there are others.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Are you working with different departments to co-ordinate the new L.E.A. (Local Education Agencies) taskforce and work?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, and it traverses itself into your next question to some degree with regard to Brighter Futures and things.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Yes.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

So Dr. Helen Miles has done, I think, a fabulous job. Every time I have come into contact with her with everything, she is really all over this so we are obviously working with Health and we are working with Home Affairs. We have not had a meeting for a while yet but she has kept us up to speed on what she is doing.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : She has briefed us.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Okay, fantastic, okay, well, I ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Yes, so we know the basics.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Right, okay, then I will move back ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I wanted to know the specifics maybe or, you know, the good points and anything that you feel you feel you are working on.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Well, again, our next meeting will be about the specifics so I do not have that. I just have the report that she sent me so ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : We can revisit that.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Okay, yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, thank you. Well, I will go straight into the Brighter Futures then and obviously there is a question in the States which I think I asked the Minister for Health and Social Services.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: I think you asked it, yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I asked the Minister for Health and Social Services because the finding comes from Health. Is that correct?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Well, it depends on which part. I have got a really long relationship with Brighter Futures in particular and the Bridge because I was kind of there at the beginning. In fact, I used to volunteer for Brighter Futures up until recently so I know the people intimately. We fund Patricia Tumelty who works at the centre.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

That is the Education Department funds?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: We do. Yes, of course.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Patricia is the head of the whole Bridge, is she not?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, and, again, she has that relationship with 1,001 Days.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Yes.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

She works very closely with Helen Miles as well, which I think you would have done. As a representative of E.S.C. she sits on both Brighter Futures and Friends of the Bridge and has an intimate knowledge of what happens there. So I did not know what had triggered your question in the first place.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

It was the charity the Brighter Futures.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Right.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think there were some concerns about their funding and, you know, there are quite distinct sections with the Bridge, is it there not, although I know Patricia oversees it?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

There were concerns that they had been promised some money.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: I think that has been resolved, has it not?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Well, that is what I need to know really. I was left a bit confused.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Okay, that is Health. The money was coming through from Health and, as far as I remember, the discussion that your question provoked was: "Had an amount been held up for whatever reason?" or something? I thought it had all been resolved and maybe you will tell me something different so I do not know because, again, it is Health, that area. But in terms of what we do, we just look after Patricia Tumelty.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, so I might need to follow with something else there. Right, now when we were talking about families, I recall you opening the one at ...

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Samarès.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : ... Samarès School.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

You did mention at that time you would like to see ...

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: More.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : ... more of these premises.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think, yes, that was perhaps where my question was coming from that I know, within the group, some of those charities would stand out.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I know you have just told us that money is tight.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

But can you see that happening soon or can you see anything?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

I can as a concept because I think there is a need. Obviously, Samarès addresses those problems with the town to some extent and I think there is a need probably in the west ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : In the west.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

... to look at that. Now that is a consideration going back to the sort of thing that Tracey has been talking about, Les Quennevais. Les Quennevais are becoming a greater part of the community in one form or another. There is an option for us to talk about those sorts of things but we are not near any other firm considerations but I would love to see it and I think everybody that has come into contact with Samarès said that it is a concept that they would like to see in other areas. Brighter Futures, for their part, has always wanted to have that out of town thing but, again, it is very much tied into this 1,001 Days which is where possibly funding could come from that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes. Did you feel essentially there needs to be more funding being diverted to Education or other departments for these centres?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: It is a case of start-up really.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Once you get these centres running, they can save you money because we are intervening early in complicated lives and complicated family structures and you are nipping problems early on so eventually years later, you start to save the system, as a whole, money. But it is difficult at the moment to see where we would get the initial funding to establish the bases and staff them. The base at Samarès is relatively cheap in the sense of the house became available so we used some capital and what we are doing is using existing resources which have just been located there so it is a relatively cheap model and it is one that we would love to replicate elsewhere but we do not have any immediate plans for it.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So could you give even a very rough figure of how much would be needed, just like the setup costs for one of these in the west?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

I think setting up Samarès was an initial investment of a few hundred thousand over a period of 2 years. Then £50,000 to £60,000 after that, so some relatively small sums of money but because we already owned the house and it was all built, it was just an opportunity which the colleagues at the time just were after. Health did a lot of work on this. If similar opportunities arose elsewhere, we would grab them. What we do not have is a lot of money to create buildings at the moment because, as you know, the capital funding is under a lot of pressure. So it is something we would like to do but we do not have any immediate plans.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

So if you have another plan to find us £250,000, this could be the way we spend it.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can I just ask you then, with growth bids ...?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: If you find this money, we will use it.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

If I see a need, we will objectively look at it. Right, so with the M.T.F.P. you put growth bids in. Do you do that then again for 2017 onwards? It is just me trying to understand how it works.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Theoretically, I think we would be able to but the growth bids that we put in are to do with demographics, to do with standards and inclusion of family support. They are running through the length of M.T.F.P. through to 2019.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Those are the ones that we have seen recently.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: Yes, exactly.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Right, okay.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, technically, I suppose there is nothing stopping us bringing forward more brokers.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I am putting ideas into your head.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

The report you would have had from Dr. Helen Miles always shows, and you yourself know, early intervention is something that we really are working on because, as the director says, it saves us money and so the more we can gain support for that, whether it is financial or otherwise, we will do. I think to be fair to the system, in order to secure more growth bids, you would have to demonstrate that it is invest to save. Invest this in year 1 and by year 3, these are the savings.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes, a very upside down period, is it not?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, right, please carry on with your questions, thank you.

Deputy J. M. Maçon:

Okay. Question 10. How do the levels of management within Schools compare to 2015 with those of 2005?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

I did not quite understand this. In terms of levels of management, I assume what you meant is in terms of the number of bodies we employ on management scales and if that is the case ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Like hours of teaching time versus hours of management time.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Broadly the same. Well, there is more than a slight reduction at the college where there has been quite a reduction in the management by above 7 posts so we have stripped out quite a lot of management layers at the college, partly to reinvest elsewhere but partly just to free the system up to allow people to breathe. At our schools the levels of management remain broadly the same over the last 10 years. Yes, little change really. Heads and deputies are roughly the same number. I would love to have all of our deputies, particularly primary deputies, as non-teachers. At the moment, most have teaching commitments as well as management capacity. Very few are non- teaching deputies. They have a big impact if we can free them from classroom practice. The problem is some of our deputies are our very best teachers too so that is a very difficult balance but, as you know, I have only been here a year and a bit but I cannot see any change in overall patterns in recent years.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So you have just mentioned you want the deputies to be non-teaching.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

I would like all primary deputies to be non-teaching in order to do things like develop a curriculum and develop the teaching and learning, the whole range of things that deputies can do but resources are such that most of our deputies have teaching commitments.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So surely that is an increase then in management time if you are taking deputies away from teaching and doing more management tasks.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: Well, except I have not been able to do that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

All right, so that is not happening.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

No, there is very little change because the budgets will remain very similar.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

The significant difference here, if you take the running costs of a school in Jersey, we spend slightly less per head here in Jersey than in the U.K. It should be okay because we have got great kids and nice buildings and all the rest but our schools spend about 10 per cent of their overall budget on things other than fixed costs, whereas in the U.K., its 20 to 22, 23 per cent. So there is not a lot of room for manoeuvre for our schools in terms of freeing people up. It is very tight here. That is why I suspect there has been very little change over the last 10 years.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. Have you got anything else or will we move on?

Deputy J.M. Maçon: No, move on.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. Could we ask you about the S.E.N. (Special Education Needs) Report that we produced and the recommendations that I think were all accepted? There was a commitment that work would begin in September 2015. Could you just update us on how that work is going please?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Okay, so I will just give you some notes having spoken to the S.E.N. guys. So 6.30 which was a recommendation: "The Minister for E.S.C. must increase the consultation and training provision for teachers and key workers in relation to the provision of S.E.N." A comprehensive professional development programme is in place for the school year 2015 to 2016. That was being done by the S.E.N. guys. 7.14 recommendation: "The Minister for Education must provide live communication with the parents of S.E.N." which is I know in particular something we talked a lot about. This will be delivered through action 30 of the Education Business Plan for 2015 to 2018 so work has started on this, and I think I said at the time when we were in discussion, communication which Tracey has already adequately shown through what she has done with Les Quennevais is high on our agenda to make sure that everybody understands where we are going and, again, this will translate through to - although it is not S.E.N. - what we are doing with higher education funding. So as much as we can, we will communicate. 8.4 recommendation: "The Minister must engage in initiatives to provide appropriate forums to support parents of S.E.N. children" and, again, this will be delivered through action 34 of our Business Plan to learn from and extend existing family focus work. So all of the things that we have been asked to do is on board to happen and we are increasing as much as we can the communication with parents because we think it is important.

[11:30]

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can I ask about a specific one?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes, of course.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

The 8.4 because I think the idea was a group of parents you could meet with and consult with.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Has that been setup?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

It is in the process of being setup. Yes, it is on to that. We thought we would grow it so what we would do is start with a group of parents. We are going to call it a Schools' Parents Forum. We wanted to make it slightly wider so we were going to start with their special educational needs and have that up and running. The first meeting should take place just this side of Christmas. You are very welcome to along. I will ask Cliff to give you the dates and you are welcome just to come along and meet them. But we would like it to grow during the year because we would like a view, for example, of parents' attendance. Why are our attendance rates so low here? Because they are far too low. Well-being. There are a whole range of things in which we would like parental views and opinions so we thought we would start with S.E.N. because that is where the greatest need is but we would quite like to grow it and make it a bit wider than that. We are more than happy to give you the dates when ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Thank you. That sounds great.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

The first meeting should be this side of Christmas and then the idea is that we would meet probably once a month.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, and how are you finding the parents to take part in that or have you got lots of parents knocking on your door?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Basically, the first report will start with parents of children with a record of need.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Yes.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: Of which there are not that many.

Executive Officer, Communications, Education, Sport and Culture: I think they are parents ...

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: We already have a ... sorry, go on.

Executive Officer, Communications, Education, Sport and Culture:

Some of them are parents that came forward at the inclusion of the consultation on updating everything. So they are parents that we have already worked with and know.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: In the system.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

We would like to open it though to parents that perhaps have not engaged with us, yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Some fresh voices, yes.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

You mentioned the comprehensive training plan going forward. Now just remind me, is that optional or is that compulsory?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: It is optional.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

It is optional, okay, and as part of the professional development of teachers, how is it monitored? How often are they attending for training sessions for children with special needs if they opt in?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

We have a system to track it. The H.R.C or H.R. or whatever system it is called.

Head of Planning and Projects, Education, Sport and Culture: H.R.I.S. (Human Resources Information System).

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

H.R.I.S. system. In fact, I was talking to Gail only last week about this. The problem is it is only as accurate as the information people put into it and, at the moment, we have got people we know have been on the training and they are not inputting it into the system. So although we have a record, we think it underestimates the amount of training people have been on so we need to tighten up on that. So we have a system that tracks this. It is a bit clumpy and does not work very easily and therefore people lose patience and do not put stuff into the system, so Gail is quite concerned about that. We were looking, for example, at the number of people who participated in health and safety training recently but we now have an online training system that people have begun to use. We know for sure that people have been on the system and used it and we would look back and their names are not included. So we have a system but it is not working, I think is the answer, and we need to get it to work.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So it is opt in. So if, say, a teacher finds himself with children in their class with needs and they need the training to cope with that and they opt into it, so do they need to find the extra time within their existing workload - and we talked about workload concerns - or is it within their contracted hours?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Teachers have a set of contracted hours and we do not really bother about that. The schools would run that and manage those hours. Part of those hours, as you know, include training.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Yes.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

So as far as possible, we try and work within those hours. We certainly would not insist on teachers working outside of their contracted hours.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

But if the head teacher of the department said: "Look, I need this", they would be expected to do it in school time or in any meeting.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, and the training programme has been halved especially to do with special needs but other areas as well from this September.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay. Shall we move on?

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Yes, please. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Twelve.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Okay, can you tell us if anything is happening in relation to the grants of 2 private schools?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

The quick answer is no. In the M.T.F.P., we have no changes to the grants. There are a couple of things. There are no changes to Beaulieu, De La Salle but the FCJ grants is reduced 25 per cent, the same as the other primary schools, which was on track and then there is another sort of caveat which is the agreement to cease the grants to St. George's and St. Michael's as part of the C.S.R. (Comprehensive Spending Review) saving which is a hangover from 2013. 2015 continues into 2016 with the cessation of the St. Michael's grant so that is the only ones it relates to.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

We are nearly there, are we not? What do you have on that one?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Only on this matter when there was the option paper discussion, the Green Paper on the structure of education within the Island. Has that been published by the department now? Now I cannot remember if it was.

Executive Officer, Communications, Education, Sport and Culture: This 2011 consultation?

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Yes, under James Reid.

Executive Officer, Communications, Education, Sport and Culture: Yes. A few months after. It is on the States website. I can send you a link.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Yes, please.

Executive Officer, Communications, Education, Sport and Culture:

It was not really a paper with conclusions. It was a report back on what people said on a whole range of areas the consultation covered. Nursery to higher education, and the points that were raised, we responded to and some of it was work already underway and then we did an outline of how we can move forward but things have changed a lot since then.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Sure. Okay, thank you, so can we move on?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. I think this is the final question you will be pleased to hear. We were looking at the innovation review that was published in September of this year and there was a table on page 89 that interested us and it showed the percentage of G.D.P. (Gross Domestic Product) spent on education and if you have this table there, you can see ...

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: I do not. I do not, no.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: No.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: I do not have this on my questioning, thank you.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes, well, it lists all the jurisdictions that were used comparing to Jersey. Malta, Iceland, Cyprus, Ireland, U.K., Israel, Switzerland, Estonia, Hong Kong, Luxembourg, Singapore, Jersey; and Jersey is right at the bottom of that table in terms of the percentage we spend on education, the percentage of our G.D.P.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I just wondered if you had any comments on that.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

I think it shows that we punch above our weight if that is the true figure and reflection of what is going on. Certainly you yourselves, having trawled through the figures and having looked at the M.T.F.P. and seen where the money is spent and how there is a deliberate sort of focus on increasing what we could do investing in education, but we are limited to what we can do. So I would love to see that figure rising up in one form or another but, to be fair - and I will ask the director to expand - I think what we have in consideration of what that figure reflects is a really good education system.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

What do you think we could do with the education system if, say, we were where Malta is and it was 8 per cent of our G.D.P. as opposed to 2.5 or even a slightly smaller change to 6 per cent on a par with the U.K.? What could you do with the system?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Well, all sorts of things. I think this is related to the notion of innovation and I think there are a couple of things we are already adopting which is, as I refer to it, priming the pump. I think as a government, we put in at the back end a £10 million Innovation Fund, we have put in Jersey Business, we have got Digital Jersey but we are not priming the pump in consideration of what these children could access. If any Jersey child could come up with an idea it would be a miracle if they could swim through that morass of bureaucracy to get to the point where they could be innovative, but we are working on that together now. So there is a new guy at Digital Jersey who is working very closely with us which we had not had that sort of working before. The same with Jersey Business. I think myself and Senator Ozouf are working more closely to his concept of what he means in innovation. He opened up the Jersey Tech Fair at Fort Regent this weekend and that was a big consideration of where we can go with what we have got, so using some of that fund to help aid innovation throughout the schools would be fantastic for a new breadth of creativity. Would you like to make ...?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

Yeah, if you double the G.D.P., you would not hear me disagree. We would not need to double it with what we are doing. We could spend some more money on things like teacher training, recruitment systems, more one-to-one tuition, investing much bigger investment in their I.T. systems, so if we could spend a lot more money it would make an impact on kids. We would not need to double it. We are talking here several million and not £100 million because we know how to do it. Theoretically, if we ever did get up to the kind of U.K. or ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Malta.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

... Malta levels, then my suggestion would be we would be able to invest very heavily in higher education. At the moment, we invest only about £10 million in it so there is an easy ... you can see a proposition coming up, cannot you?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

What is interesting is I have visited Malta and even though they are considerably higher up the scale than us, you would not see a greater consideration of the way in which their education works against ours at all.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. So do you think we spend enough money on education in general?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Well, here I am as the Minister saying, just as the director would: "I would love to spend more money" and I think he is absolutely right to identify teacher training. Inspired children come from inspired teachers and we need to get some more of that in there.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

You just cannot spend too much on education in my objective.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Although in part those figures, given that this is government expenditure, contributions made by parents in the fee-paying sector would not be included so it does make us wonder where we sit on that chart but, yes, a point of validity.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Interesting point. Let us move on. Okay, I think we have come to the end. Minister, thank you very much.

Director, Education, Sport and Culture: Thank you.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Your officer, thank you so much for your clarity of finances and procedures and would you like to add anything, Minister, before we conclude?

Director, Education, Sport and Culture:

No. I was really pleased to see such a diverse set of questions rather than just sort of focusing on one area so, no, well done. Thank you for that.

Okay. I will officially bring the hearing to a close. Thank you very much, everybody.

[11:41]