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Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Quarterly Public Hearing with the Minister for Home Affairs
FRIDAY, 19th JUNE 2015
Panel:
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour (Chairman) Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour (Vice Chairman) Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier
Witnesses:
The Minister for Home Affairs
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs
[15:02]
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour (Chairman):
Good afternoon, everybody. Thank you for coming. This is the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel public hearing with the Minister for Home Affairs. I am Deputy Louise Doublet of St. Saviour No. 2. I am the Chairperson of the panel. I will let the rest of the panel introduce themselves.
Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour (Vice Chairman):
Good afternoon. For the record, I am Deputy Jeremy Maçon of St. Saviour, District Petite Longueville, Vice Chair.
Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier :
I am Deputy Sam Mézec for St. Helier No. 2, member of the panel.
Scrutiny Officer:
I am Mick Robbins, Scrutiny Officer.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
If you could introduce yourselves.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I am Deputy Kristina Moore , Minister for Home Affairs.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
I am Constable Deidre Mezbourian , Assistant Minister for Home Affairs.
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs:
Tom Walker , Chief Officer with responsibility for Home Affairs.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Tom Walker . I am very pleased to meet you, Mr. Walker . Welcome.
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs: Thank you.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Have you read and understood the notice which should be around?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It is not here but I am quite familiar with it. Thank you.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Lovely. So, let us begin. You have had the topics of our questions, I think.
The Minister for Home Affairs: We have, thank you.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
We will attempt to keep the same numbers but we may jump around a little bit just for the sake of keeping things efficient. Question 1: how is the new police headquarters coming along, please?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Very well. I am sure you will have noticed on your travels round the Island that it is progressing physically and it is also on time and on budget still.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Brilliant. Well, that is my 2 supplementary questions for number 1. Deputies, would you like to follow up on that?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Can you just confirm for us again when the completion date is?
The Minister for Home Affairs: That is December of next year.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Is that when the police will then move in?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, that is the completion date of the building. The police will move in subsequently, so I imagine that they will all be up and running by I believe March of 2017 is the final, final date.
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Last time we asked about parking in relation to it, lots of which you could not answer because it is T.T.S.'s (Transport and Technical Services) responsibility, but are you satisfied with from what you have spoken about on this issue with T.T.S. that all the parking is sorted and it is going to be satisfactory for the police station?
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Was it Snow Hill car park where there was supposed to be some allocated spaces? Is that ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes. We have been told subsequently that there are 3 designated spaces for visitors to police headquarters that will be provided by T.T.S.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Brilliant. So visitors to the police station, will they still have to put pay cards out on those spaces or can they still park and pop into the police station for free?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is a detail that we are not yet ... we do not yet have confirmed.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
What should happen, in your opinion?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think we need to discuss that further, both the location of those parking spaces and any way they could be monitored.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
So will you be pushing to get some free access parking spaces for the police station?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think that would be the preference, if there were some designated spaces where people who were visiting the police station could park free, yes.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
If you could keep us updated on that, that would be brilliant. Thank you. I will hand over to you, Deputy Maçon.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Our next question is: how are the fire and police services dealing with the current recruitment restrictions?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I will ask the Assistant Minister to speak to the fire service.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
The fire service is dealing with it by applying a vacancy management process and I understand that is the way that all States departments are dealing with vacancies at the moment. If they want to recruit, recruiting managers have to make a business case in order to fill a vacancy, whether that is a replacement or potentially a new post. I know the public do not like new posts but every now and again they do come along. Of course, you know that I think is it P.59 of some years ago meant that any replacements or new posts above about £100,000 have to go to S.E.B. (States Employment Board) and we do not like seeing those, of course. But this is for now, all replacements or new posts and vacancies have to be approved by the chief officer of the department, so obviously for the police and the fire service that is the service heads. What I can tell you is that the current establishment figure for the fire service under the last Medium Term Financial Plan is they have budgeted for 72. The actual number is 71 and they expect that to drop to about 69 by October potentially with a fall to 70 by the end of June. What they have told me is that there are likely to be additional vacancies over the coming years because what they are doing is trying to redesign the service, as all operational departments are. They are trying to redesign the service delivery while at the same time maintaining standards of safety. That is not an easy job, but they do expect it to drop although there is no indicative numbers.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
When will that service redesign be finalised then?
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
I do not think there is a date, Deputy , because with reduced budgets, as I say, every operational service is looking to redesign where they can and what the fire service has to take into account is fire safety. They have got a department at the moment dedicated to prevention. If they have to lose numbers potentially, where do they make those cuts, where do they make those changes? If it is from prevention then by a process of elimination if people are not educated in how to prevent fires there could be more. So they are looking at a redesign which will promote fire safety with everything that that encompasses; that is prevention and protection response.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Just one other question on this area to do with the fire service. Have there been many notifications, again on your figures, that there are officers interested in taking up the voluntary redundancy scheme, which would impact again on the numbers?
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Is that what you meant by vacancy management? Does that mean voluntary redundancies?
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
No. My understanding of vacancy management is if somebody leaves they manage that vacancy.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : I see. Thank you.
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs:
There is a general downward pressure on vacancies and filling vacancies. I think, roughly speaking, there are about half the number of jobs being advertised that there were this time last year. That is really about control mechanisms within the public sector that are designed to allow filling vacancies where there is a real need to do so - like replacing a firefighter, you absolutely need one - but still keeps the pressure on public sector vacancies as a whole. So all departments of the States now have a system in place where chief officer signoff is required for every vacancy that is filled and that is there to cause managers to think very hard about whether they really need to fill the vacancy or whether there are other ways in which the public service can be maintained without filling the vacancy. That discipline is in place right across the public sector now and is consistent across all departments. So that is vacancy management as opposed to ...
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
But V.R. (voluntary redundancy) and C.R. (compulsory redundancy) is slightly different and I think you asked me, Deputy , whether any officers have put in for V.R., which is the process in place at the moment. My understanding is that none have. Can you confirm that?
The Minister for Home Affairs: From the fire service?
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs: Yes, from the fire service.
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs: No firemen.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs: None have put in that V.R. application.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Then if we can move on to the same set questions on the police.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, indeed. The same position stands obviously regarding the vacancy management process. The police service currently have 8 police officer vacancies and 2.5 civil service vacancies. There is a review being conducted internally looking at the way the police force is organised, the internal structure, to ensure that we are offering best possible value for money so that the force is tailored to having officers in the areas of most need, that have the greatest workflow. We are due to be
briefed on that next week. It is a process that is very important and shows how throughout the public sector we are all trying our very best to ensure that we are maintaining the highest possible level of public service and protection to the public while offering the best possible value for money also. In terms of voluntary redundancies, there have been 6 applications in the department in total, 2 of those in the police force, 2 from within Customs and Immigration and 2 at the prison.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Thank you. I was going to move on to Customs next. We note from our last hearing that the 2 part-time posts were not going to be looked to be replaced in the summer months this year, although we note from the business plan which we have just looked at, which we thank the department for, in the business plan on page 3 the introduction by the chief officer does comment that with a new and larger Condor boat this will put more pressure on the service in order to keep up with that. I wonder, bearing in mind those 2 aspects, what are the demands on the Customs and Immigration Service?
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
What they have been doing regarding the new larger Condor vessel is undertaking a workforce review, which has meant that they have discussed with all staff the implications. My understanding is that they have introduced a different shift pattern now to allow them to manage that because obviously it is going to cause a big impact on them, particularly in the summer months when the ship is likely to be full.
[15:15]
May I just say, it is not only going to impact upon their operational duties. It is going to probably impact on vehicles in the area because there are going to be tailbacks leading up to the ... I cannot remember the name of the road, the underpass. They have undertaken a workforce review which I am pleased to say, through discussion, through communication, the staff have been pleased to accept and it is in place and working well. I do not know if Tom knows.
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs:
It is about peaks and troughs and because the larger ship creates bigger spikes now, there is work that they could do immediately to try and cope with that, which is what they have done. Then I think there is probably a second phase where they need to spend more time looking at staffing patterns, probably with the Ports of Jersey as well because a lot of it is about the physical design of the Elizabeth Terminal and the way the car shed works and how to cope with that increased size of the peak. So they are going to look at that probably after the summer. They need to get on with this summer's arrivals and there is so much they can do. Then I would imagine in autumn through to the winter they will be looking, with the Ports of Jersey, as to how they might do more lasting structural redesign to cope with that higher peak.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
I should have added the potential infrastructure changes that may be needed, but the good thing is that Customs work well with the Ports of Jersey and discussions have been ongoing for some time on how to manage this. They also work well with the carrier, with Condor. They have been liaising with them for some time leading up to this on how they can manage it, but they will be managing this larger vessel and all the vehicles without taking on additional staff.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
In order to prevent undue delay to the public, is there scope for Customs to bring in extra staff should they need to or is it they have to cope with what they have got?
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
I think what they are planning to do, having undertaken the review with the workforce, is to manage with the numbers of staff that they have. They are certainly not looking to take on more, even seasonal. As I say, what they have to do is have the new vessel in and see how it goes and then at the end of the year they will review how it has gone and what changes, if any, they need to make. Similarly, so will Condor and the Ports of Jersey.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Just to confirm, if there are issues over the summer with that, you will be able to look at it again and see if there needs to be more staff?
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, that is what the head of service will do with his directors, but they are satisfied at the moment that they will be able to manage. The Customs officers multifunction. You can be a border control officer and then go and deal with revenue collection and things like that, so they are all multiskilled and able to deal with these things.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Just to clarify from the questions that Deputy Maçon has asked: you are changing some working practices to absorb the reduction in the budget. Will any of that, in your opinion, reduce any services to the public at all?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
The aim is to ensure that we maintain service levels. We appreciate that the public have become used to a very high level of service across the department and we will endeavour to do the very best we can to maintain that. However, given the budgetary pressures, it might be difficult to do so in some areas but that still remains to be seen. Best efforts are being made to ensure that that does not happen.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
How would you measure and make that judgment then over time?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think everything remains under review to an extent and you receive public feedback. Often when there is a level of dissatisfaction it is quite easy to receive that feedback. Hopefully it would not come to that point.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: A number of re-tweaks.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
The majority of Home Affairs staff are very much frontline officers assisting with the public on a day-to-day basis, so they are probably the very best placed people to have that feedback and that sense and they feed it up within their organisation.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Perhaps you could keep us updated over time on that. Deputy Mézec , question 3.
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
I think you have just answered it. The question is meant to be how are the police service, fire service and prison dealing with the forthcoming round of savings required?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
As you know, we have had to make 2 per cent savings for this year. I am not sure whether we have shared the view that exact figures have just been balanced across the department, but each separate department has taken their part of the savings and they have done their best to conduct that process in discussions with each other. Then for the forthcoming year we have an additional 1 per cent saving to make, so this year's 2 per cent savings are occurring and next year we have an additional 1 per cent, perhaps, we are hoping, not recurring savings but that is yet unsure. So we are in the process of identifying how those savings can be best made in each department. At the moment they have been imposed 1 per cent across the board. We were hoping that with some interdepartmental discussion and joint working we may be able to make that less of a burden in some departments where we feel there is particular budgetary pressure, but that is an incomplete process.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
It is good to hear you have got that flexibility within the different sections of your department.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Home Affairs has very much done that in the past and I think that we intend to continue to do that work in the future.
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Have there been any areas within the Home Affairs Department that have indicated that they in particular would struggle with that extra 1 per cent and are there any areas that have said: "Yes, we could probably cope with taking some extra on it"?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think the additional 1 per cent has been quite a struggle for us as a department as a whole. There are some areas where we feel that it would be more of a struggle, it is true.
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Could I ask what those areas are, if you can say?
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs:
If you look at the Home Affairs range of services you will see that some of them have more options than others. So if you were to look at Customs and Immigration, part of their work is around revenue collection, part of it is around user pays services around passports and legalisation of documents, some of it is around border control. So, within their service they have quite a mixed economy of different sorts of services with different characteristics. If you were to contrast that with, say, the prison that is a very different situation. At the prison you need a minimum number of officers on an absolute shift pattern around minimum standards to make sure that you are running a safe and secure prison that is around officer safety as well as prisoner safety. So you can see that the prison has far fewer options on how to deal with reductions in public funding than, say, Customs and Immigration does. Out of the Home Affairs family, I would say that the prison probably has the biggest challenges out of all of the areas because it does not have the options that the other services have and it has very little discretion as well. Within, say, the policing area you can decide how much resource you are going to put into different sorts of investigations and
where your priorities are. The prison receives their customers and it receives what the courts send them and it does not have any discretion either. You can see from all of that that the prison, for a whole range of reasons, has far fewer options.
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
That neatly leads on to what I wanted to ask next, which was at the last hearing it was said that there were 2 posts at the prison which were not going to be replaced this year. You mentioned shifts there. With everyone who is left over then what impact, if any, has that had on overtime for the people who are still there now having to cope with the 2 posts having gone?
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs:
The prison has a couple of different challenges. One is around vacancies and filling them and the other is around staff who are on long-term sick leave as a result of an injury in the workplace, which is a feature of a number of Home Affairs services because they are quite physical roles. Both of those can have an impact on the overtime expectation on other staff and I think we are seeing some of that at the prison at the moment. But it is as much around people who are within the headcount that are on long-term sick as it is around vacancies at the moment and I think if we can bring some of those officers back into the workplace then probably that would help more than the vacancy management at this time. That is really about how we manage people who are on long-term sick, who have got difficult injuries, before they are fully fit and how we can bring them back into the workplace over time through lighter duties before reintroducing them on to full duties. It is that area probably that has more impact than the vacancies, but you are right, that does then impact on overtime and the rest of the prison staff having to pick up those shifts and cover for their colleagues.
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Are they doing a good job, would you say, in terms of how they have been able to pick it up and match it in their shifts appropriately?
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs:
My own view is the prison do a fantastic job to cope. The management of the prison has turned that prison around from where it was a few years ago and they have done an outstanding job. My professional view is they continue to do a really outstanding job of managing the budget pressures that they get given and the pressures that arise from the prison numbers. I am continually impressed with how they do that with the pressures that they come under.
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Around how many people are off at the moment because of injury or something like that?
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs:
I am not sure. I have not got the exact figures in front of me.
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Could we get those if that is possible?
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs: Yes, absolutely.
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Thank you. It is now a similar question but in relation to the police now. I think it was said that 7.5 posts were vacant, whatever that means. In that context, how does affect it then and I should probably ask to bring in the dimension of people who are off because of injury or sickness?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I do not have the injury-sickness figures to hand.
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Again, if we can have it for those as well and probably the fire service as well, while we are at it.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes. The police have to manage their vacancies and obviously move people from department to department within the force if any vacancy imposes a particular pressure on a particular department. That is one of the reasons why the internal review is being conducted to make sure that people are best directed into the areas that most need the support from officers.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
I wonder if you can just remind us, Minister, what is the absolute minimum number of uniformed police officers that we should have on this Island?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is a very interesting question that we have discussed recently and it is not one that we have an exact figure for. It is something we are very much aware of because in these efforts that we have to go to to ensure that we are providing best value for money, ensuring that we have enough officers who would be deployable in time of an emergency is very much at the forefront. Perhaps it not so much so with the police but in some areas you could look at certain parts of a service and think we could potentially outsource that or organise it in a different way, but then if in doing that
those officers fall out of the service they would not be deployable in terms of a critical emergency. Take the Gas Place fire, for example. That was an incident that put great pressure on our police force and fire and honorary police force and ambulance simultaneously for a sustained period of time.
[15:30]
We have to make sure that we have the people who are able to come to the aid of the public in those times because we have not got the benefit of calling upon the next county, or département if we were in France, in those situations.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Thank you. Question 4 then: what progress has been made with the Young Persons Placement Regulations, please?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is in law drafting at the moment. The instructions have been prepared and we are waiting for feedback.
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
How long do you think that will take?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
The deadline is this Monday evening so that, I presume, will be then processed and move on to the next stage.
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
So someone will be busy over the weekend.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Hopefully next week.
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs:
Then it will just depend upon the priorities within the Law Draftsman's Department to how quickly they can get to them and get them drafted and then we can get them lodged.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Just a general question to the Minister: we noted on page 11 of the business plan, looking at all the law drafting instructions that are due to go into the Law Draftsman's Department, just one question is when considering the whole timeline for this thing has scrutiny been factored in?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
We always think of scrutiny and we will be very happy to work with you so that if there is something that you wish to scrutinise at a given time then we can arrange for that to be done.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Then to help the panel in its work programme, I wonder if, while you have got a very useful table on page 11 of the business plan saying when the drafting instructions are due, perhaps we could have a table back looking at when things are due to be submitted to the Assembly or before that, just so that we can better align our work programme.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Would that not depend upon whether you wanted to call them in for scrutiny?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Again, we need to know what is coming.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
In what order, yes. We are going to have some sort of prioritisation process implemented, so once we have worked that out we might be able to discuss that.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
It would be useful if the panel could have that information. Thank you.
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
At the last quarterly hearing you mentioned that a ministerial decision was about to be made relating to the European Convention on Cybercrime. Could I ask what the position is with that at the moment?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes. That ministerial decision was signed on 28th April and I think you have received the law drafting instructions, have you? No?
Scrutiny Officer:
No, I do not recall seeing those at all.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Well, I think you can have a copy of our law drafting instructions. The first draft has been prepared. As yet I have not seen it, so I am waiting on that myself.
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs:
The law drafting instructions probably went with the ministerial decision so we can send you across the link and you can look at those. That is absolutely fine.
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
When we see that we can have supplementaries. Given what I have just asked, I think it makes sense then to go to question 10 now, which is: what is the position in relation to the amendments to the Regulation of Investigatory Powers (Jersey) Law which you mentioned last time was something to look forward to?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Those law drafting instructions have also been signed off. They were signed off on the same day as the cybercrime, and so again they are in the law drafting process and will come back.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Should we add for the record at this point that this relates to missing persons, just for anybody who is reading this?
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
What is the progress on amendments allowing police to prevent the perpetrators of domestic violence from returning to the home within 28 days of the act?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That we received some publicity for a while ago and that work remains ongoing. It will be part of a cross-departmental policy group. We have set up a group called Violence Against Women and Girls Group. The essential aim is to ensure ... to look across the laws that we have in place and any gaps that we might have in legislation that prevent us from signing up to the Istanbul
Convention which is preventing and combating violence against women. So that work continues to progress.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Can I ask who is on the cross-departmental policy group for that strategy?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
There is the Building a Safer Society officer that ... you might be able to help me.
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs:
I was sitting here thinking, Minister, because I do not think I have been to one of those meetings, but it will be police, with people from the Home Affairs executive, combined with people from social policy.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes, and Law Officers.
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs:
So I think it is police, Law Officers' Department, Home Affairs executive and social policy people from the Chief Minister's Department.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Right, okay.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Minister, on that section when that is being formulated are you going to invite other States Members, in particular those who have a key interest in this area, to contribute?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think some sort of consultation would be very interesting and useful to the process.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Do you seek to undertake that?
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Thank you.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
My next question was going to be do you have the timescale, which we asked for at the last public hearing and you said you might have one for us on the strategy on what is happening and when, on your strategy for ending violence against women and girls?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think that there is ... yes, sorry, by the end of 2016 we hope to be able to sign the Istanbul Convention and so that is very much our endpoint and we are working towards it. I know they are meeting regularly, the group.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Could we possibly have a timescale broken down between now and the end of 2016 of what that group is doing?
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs:
I think that the group have a little bit more work to do before they can understand everything that we need to do to implement. The group are taking the Istanbul Convention as a kind of good framework because that covers most of what people in the Island have been asking for. So they are currently working with Law Officers going through each element of the convention. That process I would hope they would finish this side of the summer, so hopefully either in advance of our next quarterly hearing or around then. I would hope that they would have worked through all the elements of the Istanbul Convention and have an idea of what it is that we need to do by way of it. So I do not think they have got it yet, with the Law Officers. I do not think that has quite been worked through as yet, but hopefully by our next quarterly hearing, fingers crossed, that should all be done. That then will tell us where we need to do legislative changes, where we just need to implement things administratively. We should have a much clearer idea hopefully by the next time we meet.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
By the next quarterly public hearing you will have a date for when you will be consulting about this?
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs:
Yes, I would have thought so because then that will tell us what changes we need to make and perhaps which elements of our legal and regulatory system need to be adjusted and then ... so it might be more a case of the individual elements are being consulted on as they are changed rather than the convention as a whole, but even so it should be much clearer by then and we should be able to share with the panel what all of the elements are.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
So we will ask again at the next hearing. That is fine. As it is related, I will just jump down to number 11, unless anyone wants to specifically ask anything under question 6 before I go on. What has the progress on the introduction of Clare's Law been?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
As you know, it was introduced in April of last year. I am just trying to find the figures for the number. There have been a small number of requests for disclosure.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Remind me, Clare's Law is about where you ask for a partner's previous convictions for domestic violence?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is right. It is the right to ask and the right to know, so, yes. That can happen in 2 ways. If a perpetrator is particularly known to the authorities then there is a process in place for approaching, delicately, somebody so that they are informed, I believe.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
So the public do not have to come to you?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Which is part of the right to know. There have been a small number of requests. I cannot give you the exact figure at the moment, I am afraid, but it is something that is advertised through the police disclosure scheme.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Do you feel there has been enough advertising and do you feel the public awareness is there about the law?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think it is quite hard to say. It is perhaps a delicate subject and obviously those officers who are best placed to direct people, particularly those who are involved with the multiagency risk assessment centre, are well versed and able to deal with it. As a whole generally, I think there has been quite a bit of media awareness nationally and I would hope that that would filter through here.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Given that domestic violence affects all demographics, do you feel that there is perhaps more you can do to reach some of those sections of society that are not in contact with your department frequently?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
There was an awareness week at the end of last year, I believe, and the police produced a number of leaflets. I might even have one in my handbag, but they did produce them in 4 different languages, in English, Portuguese, Polish and Thai. So it is very much part of their work that they intend to reach across all sections of society and I think there were some posters up in really significant places.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Do you have a process in place by which you can measure whether you are reaching out to people?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It is very hard to tell, is it not? The numbers have increased and so the hope is that the reason for the increase in number is that people feel more able to come forward and report crimes of sexual violence or domestic abuse.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
I think that when we visited the women's refuge we were told that someone went to them - I think it was the women's refuge told us that - because they had seen a notice on the back of a toilet door. It is difficult to get women to come forward, as we know, but in public toilets the notices were on the back of the doors and somebody went forward to the refuge because she had seen something in her own language.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Specifically about Clare's Law or just about domestic violence?
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
Sorry, I am talking about domestic violence now.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Yes, because I do not think it had anything about the actual Clare's Law on it. It is very good.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Clare's Law. No, it does not but part of the Violence Against Women and Girls Group, an intention is that perhaps next year, once we have developed a strategy across the whole area then rather than selecting different topics at particular times throughout the year, we might have a broader emphasis.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Great. So there might be visibility for Clare's Law as a part of this new strategy?
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Thank you. That is brilliant. Thank you.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
How is the Minister dealing with the intergovernmental agreement pressures to have a full strength Jersey field squadron against the budget restraints imposed?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
We accept and respect the intergovernmental agreement that was created some time ago.
[15:45]
I think we mentioned in the last hearing that the squadron has recently been conducting recruitment campaigns and that seems to have been quite successful. Currently it amounts to 60 per cent of their reserve strength and following the recruitment they have got 19 new recruits in the process of joining. That is a very positive thing and 12 of those are based in Jersey. As I think we discussed last time, they have reached out into Guernsey as well, so there are 7 new recruits in Guernsey.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
What is the attrition rate? By that I mean people leaving.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is not a figure that we have been provided with. I think they seem to be a very happy and loyal group, enjoying, so I am not aware of a great number of departures.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
It would not be an area that would cause you concern, Minister?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, it would not. I am very pleased to see the squadron coming up to strength.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
What number of individuals need to be part of the organisation to meet the level of agreement?
The Minister for Home Affairs: The aim is 77.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Where are we now?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
We are 60 per cent with 19 joining. So that is 42 at 60 per cent and then we have got 19 joining, so that would take us to almost 60.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
So it is still a little bit under then?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, but we are doing pretty well, I think.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Moving on to our next question, which is question 8: what is the progression, Minister, with on the spot fines in Jersey?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Right, well, still in the early stages. In order to progress, we are very mindful of the fact that conversations need to be had with not only ourselves but the Comité des Connétable s, because we do not just have one police force in Jersey, we have 13. I think there are differing opinions at the moment about whether it would be a good thing or not and so we would be keen to enter into those discussions. I think the really important message in that area is that if we were to go down the route of imposing on the spot fines we would have to be very mindful about how the parish hall inquiry system fits into that. It would not be desirable to see any evasion of the parish hall inquiry system because it is a quite positive and well respected part of our criminal justice process.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Would an in-principle debate in the States Assembly assist in ironing out some of those decisions for you?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I do not think we have quite got that far down the road. I think it would be helpful if in the first instance we speak to the Comité des Connétable s. We have been looking at the introduction of mobile data devices to help speed up the process of police witness taking and also that would obviously help if we were to go down the route of having on the spot fines.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Assistant Minister, is there anything you would like to add on the subject?
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
I think the point that the Minister made about the impact upon the parish hall inquiry system needs to be addressed because that is one of the strengths of our criminal justice system, and just having some informal conversations with Centeniers and in particular some of the Chefs. There has not been consultation or discussion about this yet so what they have heard is giving them cause for concern really because they have got no idea about the impact on the parish hall inquiry system but they see it as having one, without having all the information that they need to make a decision. So there is more consultation, as the Minister said, with the Comité. So we will start with the Comité des Connétable s who have responsibility for the effective and efficient policing of the honorary police but it is the Chefs who have responsibility for the operational side of things and they would very much need to be on board if we were going to progress this. That is my personal opinion on that.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Then just simply for the record and for an update about the printing of passports in the U.K. (United Kingdom), how is the system going and being received?
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
It went live on 5th March and the Director of Customs with responsibility for passports has told us that they are very pleased with it. It has gone very well, the handover and the change, but I think that went well because of all the work that had gone on behind the scenes between our Customs service, and particularly the section that deals with passports, and Her Majesty's Passport Office. So 5th March it went live. They are very pleased with how it has gone. They have told me that they are providing passports better than the targets that they had set themselves. I can give you a little bit of information about it. The target was that after it had been processed in Jersey, under the new arrangements the passport would be issued within the U.K. within 8 working days. Since 5th March 765 passports have been issued where an express fee has been paid but in all cases, as I say, the passport has been received within the 8-day target, which was one of the agreed standards.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Sorry, is that within 8 days for an express passport or is that 8 days turnaround?
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
That is the express. We spoke last time about emergency passports, which are issued over here because the memorandum of understanding allowed Jersey to be able to issue those emergency passports, and 10 have been introduced or have been issued since 5th March. So I would say, yes, it is going well. Customs over here are pleased with it. What they have told us though is that looking ahead - it has taken them some time to get to this stage - there is the possibility under the eGov system of potentially applying online for passports. We are nowhere near the stage of being able to do that yet because there are all sorts of security issues with that, but it is certainly being looked at with J.C.I.S. (Jersey Customs and Immigration Service) working with the States eGov team. So, very positive.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
I think we have nearly come to the end. I just wanted to squeeze in a couple of questions that have occurred to me since we sent you these. At the previous hearing, and also I believe I have questioned you in the States, or I questioned the Minister for Education, on your departments working together and educating children in schools around issues of consent related to sexual assault, and I was wondering if you have had that conversation yet?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I have indeed, yes. Prison! Me! No Way!!! conducts a module, for want of a better phrase, on that, so it is already something that is being taken out into schools as a topic of conversation.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
It deals with consent specifically?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes. It is part of the Ask. Listen. Respect campaign and I think they have a piece of work around that.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Would it be possible for the panel to go and see that? Is that something we could do?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
To observe Prison! Me! No Way!!!? I am sure that that could be organised, yes.
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
I remember attending one as a schoolchild. In fairness, it was terrifying.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
They are very impactful. I remember going to see one.
Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
It has kept you on the straight and narrow then.
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Well, I am a States Member so ...
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Is Prison! Me! No Way!!! continuing and what is it looking like?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, very much. They are celebrating their 10th anniversary next week, I do believe, which is a great milestone. They continue to evolve and adapt the various strands of work that they take into schools so that it is always fresh and they are a very dedicated group behind it.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
It would be great if we could have some dates to possibly go and see, just to help us form our thinking on that.
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs:
Yes. We have got the Prison! Me! No Way!!! team in touch so we will get that sorted.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Thank you very much. Deputies, would you like to ask anything else before we finish?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Yes, one final question from me is just looking at the disciplinary process out for the Chief of Police and the legislation that goes around that, just to ask how it is progressing and where are we with that?
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
We touched on it at the last hearing.
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs:
The initial draft of the law is being prepared. We have discovered that the U.K. law on this matter is considerably more complicated than we anticipated and so we are probably going to have to find our own path through that within Jersey law in a way which is simpler than the U.K. legislative and regulatory setup. I am meeting with the police a week today, next Friday, to go through queries which the Law Draftsman has raised to do with which way we want to resolve some of the complexities within Jersey law. Once those are resolved then the law drafting process can continue and there are a number of regulations being drafted under the Jersey Police Law, some of which are ready, some of which are still under development, like this one. So there is one to do with the disciplinary provisions for the Chief and the Deputy Chief, which will probably also require some fresh law drafting instructions to do the disciplinary code as well. Then that is associated with some changes to the regulations around general performance and discipline provisions that apply to the police where we have found a number of areas there that need updating and so we are going to do those at the same time. Once we have done all of them, because they are a package, then we will be ready to present those for consideration. So I do not think it is going to be a really quick piece of work, because it is quite complicated because of the interactions between the various regulations, but it will be ongoing. We will be happy to update at the next hearing although I would be surprised if we are in a position to be launching them by then. It think it will be a little bit longer than that.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
It sounds like quite a significant piece of work.
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs:
It is kind of complicated. Yes, it is, but we are working our way through it and we will end up, I think, with a law which is clearer and simpler and more straight forward than the equivalent provisions in the U.K.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Good. Deputy Mézec , anything else?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Could I just reiterate that it would be nice to see the figures on how many people are off because of injuries incurred across the different services; if that could be sent to us at some point?
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs:
We absolutely have available figures on both short-term and long-term sick by service and we will happily share those with you. What they will show is that for most of the services it is kind of average or less than the average. It will show that the fire service did have a relatively high figure but that the Fire Chief has brought that down, been able to bring that down. Then you will see from the figures that the area where long-term sick remains an issue is with the prison service. The prison managers have worked very hard to follow the policy and really their ability to deal with the issue sympathetically and within scope is around the H.R. (human resources) policy. So they are doing a very good job of managing within the current H.R. policy with the limits they have got. You will see that the figures show that at the prison it is considerably higher than the average but I think it is not that far off what you would find in a U.K. prison that has similar issues. I know we have got the figures and I will get those across to you.
[16:00]
We will also ask the Human Resources Department whether they can set those against some U.K. benchmarks for fire and prison, because looking at it against a States-wide benchmark does not really tell you that much. You really need the U.K. benchmarks, so we will see if we can get those and then you can see it all in context, but we are more than happy to share those with you.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
That would be very helpful, thank you. I think there might have been some other commitments. Perhaps, Mick, we send a summary of commitments given. Is that what we do?
Chief Officer, Home and Constitutional Affairs:
Yes, we will definitely send over the sickness figures. You asked about the legislative programme and we will get that done. We will also make sure that for next time we have got the Violence Against Women and Girls and Istanbul Convention timetables for you and we will also make sure that we arrange for you to see the Prison! Me! No Way!!!
Great. Sounds like you are on top of that. Minister, would you like to add anything that we have not covered that you want on the record?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is very kind of you. I am very grateful to every member of staff in Home Affairs for the hard work and contributions that they have individually made of late. So we are looking forward to making progress in many different areas.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Thank you very much, everybody. That brings the hearing to a close.
[16:01]