Education and Home Affairs Panel - Quarterly Hearing - Minister for Education - Transcript - 19 May 2016

STATES OF JERSEY

Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Quarterly Meeting with the Minister for Education

THURSDAY, 19th MAY 2016

Panel:

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour (Chairman) Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour

Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier

Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. John

Witnesses:

The Minister for Education Director of Education

Principal Educational Psychologist

[18:57]

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour (Chairman):

Welcome to the media and members of the public in the gallery there. It is always nice to see people observing our hearings. Just before we begin, I wanted to point out that our quarterly public hearing is being filmed this evening. This is not for the media, but it is part of a pilot that scrutiny are doing, where we are investigating filming of States business. A link to the file of the film will be placed on the States website and the scrutiny website tomorrow, if anybody wants to review it. We are the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel. This is our quarterly public hearing with the Minister for Education. Welcome, everybody, again. Members of the public and media, could you please ensure that your mobile phones are turned off? Your role is just to observe the questioning this evening. If you do want to comment on the questioning, you are very welcome to get in touch with scrutiny after the hearing or come and chat to us at the end. We are aiming for 8.30 p.m. to finish our questioning, but we have got some flexibility until 9.00 p.m. to finish then. I am Deputy Louise Doublet and I chair the panel. I will let the rest of the panel introduce themselves.

Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. John :

Deputy Tracy Vallois, Deputy of St. John and Member of the panel.

Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour (Vice-Chairman):

Good evening. Vice-Chairman of the panel, Deputy Jeremy Maçon of St. Saviour , District Petite Longueville.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier :

I am Deputy Sam Mézec , Deputy for St. Helier No. 2, panel Member.

Scrutiny Officer:

I am Mick Robbins, the Scrutiny Officer.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Minister, would you like to introduce yourself?

The Minister for Education:

Yes. I am Deputy Rod Bryans, the Minister for Education.

Director of Education:

Justin Donovan, Director of Education.

Principal Educational Psychologist:

I am Julian Radcliffe, Principal Educational Psychologist.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Minister, thank you very much for coming out this evening. We do not usually do our hearings in the evening, but we are hoping to make scrutiny more accessible to the public. So we do appreciate you making the effort to come out in the evening for us. Minister, have you read and understood the statement in front of you there?

The Minister for Education: Yes, I have.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. We have reordered some of the questions this evening. I think partly to accommodate one of your officers. The first question we are starting with is on mental health issues in schools. Can I ask the Minister first ?

The Minister for Education: Yes, of course.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Minister, are you aware of the rates of common mental health issues in schools?

The Minister for Education: By rates you mean ?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Maybe what percentage of children would be suffering from common mental health issues like depression, anxiety, things like that?

The Minister for Education:

My psychologist would keep me up to speed on those sorts of things, yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay. Let us hear from him.

Principal Educational Psychologist:

It is quite hard to establish exact levels of instance, but I anticipate the levels in Jersey are broadly similar with levels in the U.K. (United Kingdom). So thereabouts, in terms of diagnosed mental ill health, we are talking about 10 per cent of the population at any given time. Out of those, 50 per cent of those would be conduct disorder or challenging behaviour.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay.

[19:00]

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Jersey is often anecdotally said to have a slightly higher percentage when it comes to some mental health issues, addictive behaviours, those types of things, within the population. Have you noticed that within the school population in Jersey?

Principal Educational Psychologist:

No, I do not have any evidence to support that. No.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Minister, these figures of around 10 per cent of the population, which might be around 3 children in each class, were those figures on your radar? Were you aware of those rates or was that a surprise to you?

The Minister for Education:

No, they are on my radar and it is an issue. In fact, I was talking about it just before we started. It was partly of what we spoke about briefly today with the meetings with the 3 Islands. In fact, I am opening up the Mind Mental Health Conferences next month or in July. It is a concern of mine. In terms of what we have provided for within the schools and the P.S.H.E. (Personal, Social, Health Education) programme and the well-being team that we have going out there, with Julian and his colleagues, I think we are addressing it really well. If there is a rise in numbers, I think it is in relation to how good we are identifying these things now. I do not think it is an actual rise in the numbers of the people. I just think we are more adept at identifying problems.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

You mentioned identifying the problems, is there any specific training being developed for teachers in how to identify mental health issues?

Principal Educational Psychologist:

We have an offer available to all our schools and in particular front-line staff which aims to raise awareness around emerging mental health issues in children and young people. The starting

point for all intervention is identifying children and young people with these issues in the first place. Yes. It is accessible to all members of staff in schools.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : That is available currently?

Principal Educational Psychologist: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

How do teachers access that training?

Principal Educational Psychologist:

In line with all the training courses that are offered to all staff in schools, an offer goes out to all staff through the Professional Development Centre. It outlines all the courses that are available. It would be picked up through their managers and made relevant for staff as they need it really.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Minister, how is that training funded? Do the individual schools have to fund the teachers to go on that course or is that something that is centrally funded?

Principal Educational Psychologist:

The training is all provided by education staff, so my psychologists.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Their supply cover, is that funded?

Director of Education:

No, the schools pick up the supply cover.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. Would you consider funding the supply cover for that, to really encourage schools to send teachers on that, given that it is such a pressing issue?

The Minister for Education:

I think we would consider all of these aspects. Like, I say, it is very much on our agenda. In fact, I was just talking to the Isle of Man representatives, the Minister and his director. When I went up to Scotland I was very impressed with the way they all seemed to be ahead of the game in terms of these sorts of issues. I was very impressed with the way they deal with mental health issues. It was part of a cultural conference I was at where this was specifically discussed. I sort of agreed, provided we can put the time aside, to go up and see the new Minister for Education, Mr. John Swinney. He was part of that mental health process. I agreed with the Isle of Man guys, perhaps we should go up and have a little meeting. I literally just said to Julian, this could be something he could join us on. We are looking at it. It is a concern. I think Julian and his colleagues are really addressing it.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

It sounds like something that is going up on your list of priorities. Is that fair?

The Minister for Education:

I think it is a global problem. I do not think it really specifically just a Jersey problem. I do think we, in such a small jurisdiction, should be addressing this as quickly and as efficiently as we can. At the moment I think we are. I want to keep ahead of the game, more than anything else.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :  

Okay. At the last hearing that we had you mentioned a new system to look after children's well- being in schools. How is that coming along?

The Minister for Education:

We have a particular individual whose scope has grown across the schools now. I think Julian is aware of the projects that she is working on. I think that has been a really good thing for both teachers and the children themselves.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. Is that available through all of the schools or is that a trial in some of the schools, did you say?

The Minister for Education: All schools.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

All schools. How do schools access this provision?

The Minister for Education:

It is quite limited at the moment.

Director of Education:

Allocated time. If we go back to your original question: all schools or a few schools? Originally it was just a few schools and all the resource was located there. Now what has happened is we have taken that same resource and made it much more widely available so all schools can access it. They have an allocated time slot. The team will negotiate with the head teacher who are the key priorities. That is important, because the work they do with these children needs to fit in with the work that other people are doing. Often you will have the Education Welfare Service working with them. It is important we have a lead. So we make sure that the support children and their families are getting is co-ordinated.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. You said the schools will identify the children who were priorities. Is there scope to widen it out further so it is more about prevention and available to all the children? Would more funding be required for that?

Director of Education:

There is a prevention element in it. So, for example, every 2 or 3 weeks I spend half a day or a day with a front-line service. I recently spent some time with this team, so I can explain. During the day I spent with them, we spent part of the day working with individual children. I had the parents' permission for me to be there. They were also working with whole classes. So the same people would talk to the whole class about what to do if you were concerned about something, who you could turn to.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : This is secondary school, is it?

Director of Education: No, this is primaries.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :  Primary and secondary?

Director of Education:

The scheme at the moment is dominated by primary.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :  Okay.

The Minister for Education:

It is also worth mentioning, we work very closely with Mind, which again this is the one that is running the conference, and particularly with the youth service. They have been very effective in adopting and training their people up in these particular skills.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :  

Okay. So most of this well-being programme is in the primary schools. Is there anything you have not told us about that is happening in secondary schools, that you wanted to share?

Principal Educational Psychologist:

We have introduced a group of school-based professionals, called emotional literacy support assistants. These are school-based teaching assistants, who have been released by their schools to work through 6 days of training. There are 56 in total, split between primary and secondary. They are developed to act as a sort of buffer for young people beginning to experience some emerging kind of emotional or well-being needs, if you like. They are like the first line of defence as problems begin to appear, I suppose. They are in primary and secondary schools. Slightly above that, if you like, in the secondary context, we have school-based counsellors, who are Education funded. They are located in all the secondary schools, private and state. In addition, looking ahead, as part of the mental health strategy, we are looking to develop, in partnership with C.A.M.H.S. (Child and Adolescent Mental-Health Service), some mental health worker posts. This is still subject to some final decision-making. It will offer an additional layer of support in primary and secondary schools. So a pretty comprehensive sweep of support for young people with these kinds of needs.

Director of Education:

In terms of taking it forward, I think there are 2 areas where we could strengthen it moving forward. One is working much more widely with parents, so the parents become more skilled in identifying issues and working with children. We are doing some of that, but not perhaps as much as we should. Another area is we have a very good youth service that works with young people. Sometimes those young people work better with the youth worker than they do with the school, for all sorts of reasons. Although we do some work with them, we could strengthen that area as well.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. I wanted to ask about the issue of the stigma of mental health issues. It is obviously fantastic that there are counsellors within the schools, but if children are feeling that there is a stigma attached to going to see that counsellor and are maybe reluctant to see them, what can you do to tackle that and address that issue in schools?

Principal Educational Psychologist:

The Youth Enquiry Service provide an out of school counselling service for children and young people, specifically to address that issue. We acknowledge that sometimes that is the case. In addition, having a traditional counselling role in schools, schools have pretty sophisticated pastoral systems generally. You will expect children to be accessing support from their form tutors, head of years and the wider pastoral teams anyway. The counsellors provide perhaps more specialist support. Notwithstanding that we do have good robust pastoral systems as well as the out of school opportunity for the Youth Enquiry Service.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Just going back a little bit, talking about the well-being officer and the programme that has been developed, would it be fair to say that that programme is very much in demand, it is a very popular programme?

Principal Educational Psychologist: Yes.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I just wonder how that demand is being measured by the department?

Director of Education:  

Partly through the profession, partly visits. What we have in each of the schools is a meeting between the support staff and the senior team of a school to talk about all of the children.

Principal Educational Psychologist:

They are called P.A.R.M.s (Planning and Review Meetings).

Director of Education:

Yes, P.A.R.M.s, Planning and Review Meetings. So we have the support staff who all sit down with the senior management team and the S.E.N.C.O (Special Educational Needs Co-ordinator) and others to talk about all the children that we are supporting at any one time and making sure those services are joined up. That is a really good measure of the demand, because they will say to us: "You are supporting 3 children, we have 4 more in the wings." So we use the feedback from those meetings. In the future, of course, schools if they wanted additional support for more children earlier on they could, for some children not all, use some of their Pupil Premium funding to develop additional support.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Thank you. Just going back, when we were talking about the issue of training being available for teachers and the response was: it is there, but it seems to be a very much locked in system and is there anyway of monitoring how often across the board, when teachers opt into these training modules or have I misunderstood something?

Principal Educational Psychologist:

It is not a requirement in any sense to be training in areas of mental health. We certainly encourage it and it is certainly good practice. I suspect training such as this goes into the broad mix of opportunities that teachers can access. Interestingly, to take it back a bit, about 18 months ago there was a lot of concern around issues of self-harm. That was identified as a specific spike of concern across all our schools, primary and secondary. The department responded to that and there was an initial conference hosted by the Education Department, we were to put in new process and awareness raising workshops for head teachers and school S.E.N.C.O.s. On the back of that, every single secondary school, all members of staff were given specific training in responding to or understanding issues of self-harm as presented in schools. In response to this particular issue we could respond quite specifically. In terms of awareness raising, there is a bit of a drip effect in terms of educating staff in schools.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Just to confirm, it is an opt in system.

Principal Educational Psychologist: It is an opt in system, yes.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Therefore, does the department do any form of monitoring? It was the same issue with special education needs, while the opportunity for training was there, it is only very much if the teacher went and took it. With these types of issues, I just kind of feel: where is the monitoring to make sure that there is consistency across the board?

Director of Education:

In terms of who attends, I would love to say we have this cracked. We do not quite. We have an H.R. (Human Resources) system that does allow us to track the training the teachers assume. But it requires teachers in schools to complete a form and give us the information. What we are looking at doing is changing the system, so we do not rely on busy teachers and so that the course providers will simply provide that information and will input it centrally. That is increasingly the

case and making it much easier for people to log on. So we are almost there. We do have a system which is increasingly accurate, but at the moment I cannot be sure of those teachers who appeared on a particular course. We are not there yet. I would love to say we are, but we are not.

The Minister for Education:

I think there is another thing to say. We are dealing with this when it becomes obvious to us. It would be nice to swim upstream and deal with the causes of these things rather than wait for these things to happen. I think that is something in the department we have talked about, what we can do to actively help. You mentioned families before. How can we work with families to inform them what the pressures are that we perceive at the end of the day and how those pressures then result in the kind of things that Julian has to deal with? Informing parents about switching off things like the internet, because really this is a real global problem and the connection that young people have constantly through phones and things is just not good.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Once this new system is in place, where you can see which schools are sending teachers on this course, would you commit to ensuring that at least one teacher in every school is doing this training? Is that something that you would consider monitoring?

Director of Education:

We would be reluctant to insist that teachers had to go on training, because it is the kind of thing that you cannot do reluctantly. You have mentioned, for example, supply, the only way of providing supply would be to hold it back from the budget before we delegate it. In a sense we do pay for supply, because we put it out to schools. What we could do is check to see those schools that are not sending people on to what we consider to be very important training. We could go back and talk to the head teacher and ask why.

[19:15]

It might be that they feel they have expertise already on the staff, if they have recruited teachers with the kind of skills and qualifications that Julian's team are looking for then it would not be necessary. So what we would rather do is track it and work it through. Jumping ahead, I know on your list is the questionnaire we sent out to survey the staff. One of the big issues that came back from the staff was the feedback on professional training. Professional development was not as positive as we would like. It is one of the big issues to emerge from this. So perhaps we can come back to that later. We do need to look at professional development generally for our teaching, because the staff are not particularly impressed.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. So whether it is accessing the training or experience already in schools, Minister, will you be ensuring that every school does have some ?

The Minister for Education:

I was just about to say, yes. I briefly just spoke with Julian. I think it is the case if you were to look at that, every school does have somebody that has done that already.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :  

Do you have a way of monitoring that, so you can be certain, as the Minister, that every child does have access to a teacher with such expertise?

The Minister for Education:

Yes, I think we can monitor that. Yes.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Can I just ask, the Director said that they were working towards having a system in place, when do you expect that system to be in place completely?

Director of Education:

We have a system in place completely now. It is making sure people use it. The system is up and running and we need to make sure all schools are using it consistently.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

When then do you expect all schools to comply with that?

Director of Education:

Gayle is confident that in the next academic year it will be data that we can rely on. I think it is optimistic, but as I am an optimist I am going to agree with her.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Thank you.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :  

I just wanted to ask about the Mental Health Strategy, there is lots of mention of education in there and how education can help and prevent mental health issues. Is there any extra funding that will be available to your department that is attached to that Mental Health Strategy?

Principal Educational Psychologist:

There might be. Can I just briefly talk to the strategy, because I think I am representing education?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Just briefly, because I think we need to move on from this.

Principal Educational Psychologist:

Essentially there are 6 strands attached to the strategy that I am responsible for, in terms of schools. It is a 5 - 19 age strategy, from our perspective. The first strand is looking at the services we currently have, both in schools and from the centre. The second is looking at the kind of workforce development activity we give our schools. The third is looking at third-sector engagement in the area of mental health in schools. The fourth area is looking at anti-bulling, because it is relationship with an increase in mental ill-health. Then there is an area looking at the platforms which allow us to co-ordinate the services we provide schools. Those are the 6 key areas, if you like.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Is that in the main Mental Health Strategy?

Principal Educational Psychologist:

Yes, there is a strand within the Mental Health Strategy which is early prevention for children and young people, 5 - 19.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :  

Okay. So this is published, what you are telling us?

Principal Educational Psychologist:

Yes, it is in the Jersey Mental Health Strategy. It is just one of 5 strands, if you like.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :  Okay.

Principal Educational Psychologist:

There are funds earmarked in relation to developing services. In particular services which sit at early intervention or early help, if you want to call it that, where they bridge into tier 3, which is C.A.H.M.S. activity. Because there is acknowledgement that there are quite a lot of services at tier 2 and there are services at tier 3, C.A.H.M.S., but it is trying to work out how children can more seamlessly slip from tier 2 into tier 3 and back down again. They are quite separate at the moment. There needs to be more joined up activity in that area. That is most likely where additional funding will be used.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :  

Okay. When will you be able to access those funds or when will you know about that?

Principal Educational Psychologist:

We are in the process of role and job negotiation at the moment. It is Health-led funding, if you like. So it is not Education money to spend. Health are looking at understanding that outcomes need to be put in education context, if you see what I mean. We have come together and we have constructed some job descriptions which will attract additional funding. The final piece of negotiation around that, in terms of making sure it is absolutely right, in terms of the kind of jobs we are looking to develop, the ones that bridge tier 2 and tier 3 because they are new posts, it is new investment and it is a different way of thinking. We need everyone completely signed up to what is being proposed.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think in a previous hearing, Minister, you mentioned that there was a lack of family therapists in the Island. Is that something that will be developed as part of this?

Principal Educational Psychologist:

It would be one of the functions of that posts that we would develop, yes. They are quite broad functions, but working therapy for families would sit within these posts, if the posts were agreed.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay. Thank you.

Director of Education:

We are not talking a huge figure. I think the figure we have is something like 250,000. Something of that ball park figure that we are hoping to draw down, yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay. Just for education?

Director of Education:  Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. If you could keep us updated on that we would be grateful.

Director of Education: Sure.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :  

Thank you. We need to move on from this. I just wanted to ask, while we were on the subject of mental health issues, there was a freedom of information request, which was reported on recently about stress levels among teachers having risen. I wondered, Minister, what you were doing to address that and perhaps whether any data from the survey you did with teachers would help you shed any light on the reasons for those stress levels?

The Minister for Education:

Yes, to some extent. This is where it has been really fortunate for us to be able to work in such a good partnership with the union, because I think there are some work streams I think it is on the agenda here talking about the sorry, I am just going to refer to my notes. We have 4 forums looking at the teachers' survey. Let me just find my notes. Do you want to ?

Director of Education:

Yes, sure. When we get to that we have a one-side summary which we will give you. There were 4 broad areas which cover a lot of positive stuff; 4 big issues emerged from this survey. One of them was to do with well-being of staff. Although the results we got from our teachers was better than the surveys from England, what was concerning about it was that it was lower than the feedback we had from the Island-wide survey. You know we have the household 1,000 snapshot. If you compare the number of people there who were saying they are concerned about their health and well-being that was more positive than the teachers. So compared to English teachers our teachers are much happier and healthier and all the rest of it, compared to the feedback from Jersey as a whole they were lower. So it is a big issue for us. To get to the bottom of that we are setting up 4 focus groups. I have just cleared the letter today to go to all the schools asking for a cross-section sample of teachers to come out and talk to us about these issues. So what we need to do is get those teachers in the room and pull apart the reasons for that. The assumption is it is workload, but I think that is a dangerous assumption to make. Teaching is a very responsible job. It is a pressurised job, where parents who care very much about their kids and therefore put pressure on our teachers. The idea is during the end of June, early July to have classroom practitioners no officers in the room, we have brought in an independent person to pull that apart and get to the bottom of why teachers

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

How will you select the teachers to take part in these groups?

Director of Education:

We are going to invite any teacher who wants to volunteer to come along. Then once we have our volunteers we will take a sample across, so we have secondary, primary, male, female, experienced and less-experienced. We will get a cross-sample that way. We are working very closely with the union on that. They are very supportive of the idea of doing that piece of work.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So your 4 groups, well-being is one of them, what were the other 3?

Director of Education:

Workload; health and well-being; professional development in the broader sense, not just courses; and also, interestingly, something we did not expect, perceived lack of support from some teachers from senior management. They feel sometimes they are left exposed and need more support. Interestingly the survey showed almost no difference between primary and secondary. It showed a big difference between sectors: State, independent and fee-paying. It showed a big difference between leadership and classroom practitioners. But there was almost no difference, other than behaviour, between primary and secondary. That is quite interesting.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Minister, do you have any thoughts on actions you can take in terms of the feeling of lack of support from senior management? Is there anything you can do to perhaps free up the senior management to support the teachers a bit more? Anything you can do to reduce their workload so they can be there for the teachers?

The Minister for Education:

To some extent. I think the Director has articulated that these forums are really to pull apart those threads and to identify what the causes are for those. It is not until we do that and drill down to it that we can then begin to address the problem. I am really pleased that the survey has been done. It was one of those things that was unexpected to us when we got it back, that sort of area. The forum is there and as soon as it has given us the information we can start to work on it.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :  

What dates will these meetings be held?

Director of Education:

I do not have them with me.

The Minister for Education: We will let you know.

Director of Education:

End of June, early July. They are based in Springfield in the conference centre there. We are going to arrange for childcare, so that we can make sure if we have teachers with young families they can participate too.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

That is good. Is it something that Scrutiny could perhaps observe?

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Director of Education:

Well the thing with observing, like we said, we are not going to have officers in the room. We have an independent person who is going to come in, with no officers, no unions, no head teachers and close the door. We do not want to change the behaviour and the feedback

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes. It is maybe something for the Minister to think about.

The Minister for Education:

Essential I think what the director is saying is we want raw information and we do not want to upset the balance there at all.

Director of Education:

Very happy to share with you the raw results.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :  

That is something we can talk about later.

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. I think we should move on from that. Thank you very much, I appreciate you coming out, Minister, to give us that information. Just one more thing on the survey, could we have the raw data from the survey?

Director of Education: Yes, absolutely.

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Director of Education:

What we are going to do is publish the whole thing. It is probably not the best time to ask teachers what they think of the world.

The Minister for Education:

We have a summary that we can share with you.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :  

Lovely. Thank you very much for that.

Director of Education: Those are just the headlines.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Thank you. We are going to move on now to question 2.

The Deputy of St. John :

The next question is around the Medium Term Financial Plan, without wishing to go into the Nursery Education Fund, as this is subject to review at the moment. It was mentioned that the money to be saved would be earmarked for Special Educational Needs and Pupil Premium. Minister, you asked for growth money in the 2016 M.T.F.P. (Medium Term Financial Plan) for both of these things. Why were the States not told that money would also need to be taken from elsewhere to finance the Pupil Premium?

The Minister for Education:

Sorry, I missed that. My phone went off at that point.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :  

Do you need to stop? I know you have a

The Minister for Education:

Would it be all right if I just had a look, please? That is fine, thank you.

The Deputy of St. John :

The growth money which was given in the 2016 M.T.F.P ...

The Minister for Education: Yes.

The Deputy of St. John :

There was no mention that money would need to be taken from elsewhere in addition to that growth money. Why was that?

The Minister for Education:

I suppose, really, we had already planned what we intended to do. I think the areas that gave us the greatest concern, looking back through the situation, looking through as we went through each step, and began to measure what we were doing ... because things change, they shift, and we have to adjust our concerns as we grow. So those 2 became the biggest concerns for us, and we had to identify where we would find funding for those, which were special educational needs and pupil premium. So that is why, I suppose, in the context, we were not surprised by it, but we began to realise that was a bigger concern than we first thought, I suppose.

The Deputy of St. John :

The pupil premium total was £1.2 million that was allocated for 2016, but there was also growth funding for the Nursery Education Fund itself for this year. There was no mention within the annex to the M.T.F.P. that there was any intention to look at even reviewing the Nursery Education Fund, even though there was an overview narrative within that. Can you explain why that was not mentioned?

Director of Education: Mentioned? Sorry?

The Deputy of St. John : The annex to the M.T.F.P.

Director of Education: Yes.

The Deputy of St. John :

It talks about that growth, and it talks about the additional required money. There was growth allocated for the Nursery Education Fund and pupil premium, and special educational needs.

Director of Education: No. The growth ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Did you want the Minister's answer?

Director of Education: The nursery ...

The Deputy of St. John : Whoever can answer it.

Director of Education:

The growth we bid for, we did not get it all, of course, but we got most of it. The nursery was not to do with the N.E.F. (Nursery Education Fund). The nursery growth is twofold. One is demographics, but the main nursery growth is to do with nursery children with special educational needs. That growth, I think it was, I do not have the figures in front of me, I think it was £250,000, something of that kind.

The Deputy of St. John :

The financial narrative within the M.T.F.P. stated that: "The £0.7 million for early years, including additional support for children with identified needs covering pre-birth to 5, to ensure children get the best possible start to their education, and additional funding for the full cost increase in the number of children entitled to Nursery Education Fund, providing parents with the opportunity to access 20 hours of early years' education for children aged 4."

[19:30]

Director of Education:

All right. Okay. I will have to go back and look at that. We did not ask for ... what we asked for was growth for general demographic growth, which was £4.3 million, I think, to cover the increase in numbers coming through. The growth bids crossed my desk. The specific nursery growth bid was around special educational needs. We have children, not many, 20 or so children, with quite significant special educational needs that we had no funding at all, so we were having to pull money from elsewhere. So that is that £250,000.

The Deputy of St. John :

It does not explain that clearly in the actual plan.

Director of Education: No, clearly not.

The Deputy of St. John :

There are numbers about the growth. It specifically says: "Nursery Education Fund, £376,000."

Director of Education:

Okay. I shall have to go back to it.

The Deputy of St. John :

As a separate item to the demographic.

Director of Education:

Okay. I will have to go back and look at that.

The Deputy of St. John :

But going back to the pupil premium side of things, if a child meets the threshold for the pupil premium, but only needs a minimal amount of the support, what happens to the rest of the money?

Director of Education:

Okay. at the moment, all of the money is allocated to that particular child, in the pilot year, as it is in England, so we have adopted that scheme. One of the things that the English pupil premium never got to the bottom was just that. So we have some children who qualify for the funding that needed a little bit of extra help, but other children that needed a lot of extra help, and yet the money is allocated per head. One of the things we are looking at during the pilot year, which is the current year, is whether in Jersey, because we are smaller, we might be able to provide more flexibility. When you look through the pilot projects, a number of them are trying to be much more flexible, so pooling the money together for a group of children who qualify and using that money more productively across that group so that some children will get a lot more support than the others. It is one of the reasons we wanted to run the pilot here. I understand why, in England, that was difficult, because of the size and the complexities, but here I think we can crack that. We have 19 schools running pilot projects for us, and some of them we are looking at to try and solve that particular problem, and it looks more than possible.

The Deputy of St. John :

Because here in Jersey you have a model, if I understand it, that you delegate financial management. So the head teacher is responsible for the budget that is handed over to them. The pupil premium, is that the same requirement, a delegated financial management? So, once they get that money, would they be able to, say, if they do not use the rest of the money, have a contingency pot for further requirements within the year?

Director of Education:

No. In the sense that the money is allocated to named children, and we are being quite precise. What we do not want to do is have the money swallowed up into the budget as a whole. What we are saying is, these particular children have been singled out to require additional support and you would have to spend the money on those children. If they do not spend it on the children and they want to carry it forward, if they make a case for that, that is fine. But if we find it is not needed, then what we can do is raise the bar and get to more children, because at the moment we are focused on around about 18 per cent. I would like to get to more like 20 per cent, 25 per cent, but we do not have the funding for that. So the spending will be monitored very, very carefully by professional partner visits, and on each visit they will be saying: "These are the named children. Here is the budget you have. Explain how you spent it and, most importantly, give us some evidence that the children have moved forward." We are going to monitor it very, very carefully indeed and, again, the pilot has been very helpful in that. When you say that the schools have delegated budgets, that is true, but it has all sorts of strings attached to it. One of the things we want to do in terms of freeing schools up is to genuinely delegate money to schools. At the moment, there are all sorts of strings. They have to get permission and ask to move money around, and it is proving very difficult.

The Deputy of St. John :

Would you be able to provide us an example of the strings, what the strings are attached? Maybe just provide us the information, rather than us going through every bit and piece now.

The Minister for Education:

One of the things we are going to do ... because you are asking about the timing of the M.T.F.P. and when we pass information. I think you know the M.T.F.P. is lodged on 30th June. What we were going to suggest to you guys is come in on the 31st and then we will take you step by step through each individual thing. So you can dig into the detail of why we made these particular decisions, and what each part of that means. Then we have later decided to have a sort of conference, I cannot think what the word is now, but a presentation to States Members to articulate our thoughts behind this and why we have chosen this spending. That will about 15 days into July, I would think. We can go into more detail at that point in time.

The Deputy of St. John :

We are not able to see any information with regards to the M.T.F.P. until it is published?

The Minister for Education:

Our Ministers will not have detailed solutions to some of the things we are dealing with until about halfway through June.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think, Minister, if there was a way that we could confidentially access any information before the M.T.F.P. is published, that would help us greatly in effectively scrutinising it. If there is a way you could do that, even if only 2 weeks before, we would be grateful.

The Minister for Education:

I think we have already worked together on these things. We are working on them together, so I am sure we can help you in some way.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay.

Director of Education:

May I come back to your point about ... I would not want you to think that schools have ... I will give you one example, just one example, of how things are tied up. We have put a new nursery into Springfield School. A phone call from the head to say: "I have the funding, somebody to manage it for me, but I have not got enough promotional points." I said: "What do you mean?" He said: "You guys put a limit. You tell me that I am only allowed to have 12 promotional points, irrespective of my budget." I think that is crackers. I think heads should be able to decide, as their curriculum develops and as the shape of the school changes. Those kind of things, they are being micromanaged from the centre and we are looking to sweep all that away, at the same time as introducing pupil premiums. On the one hand, we have given them a lot more freedom, but on one or 2 particular budgets, this is the key one, we are going to monitor them very, very carefully. But theoretically, we have devolved money here. In practice, we do not.

The Deputy of St. John :

It would be interesting to see those types of what you say are strings attached, just to get an understanding because ...

Director of Education: They are many and varied.

The Deputy of St. John :

... I was always of the understanding that it was delegated financial management and there was trust within the head teacher's to be able to run the school in the way that they see fit for the pupils.

The Minister for Education: That is what we are aiming for.

Director of Education:

That is the rhetoric, but it is not the reality at the moment.

The Deputy of St. John : Okay. That is interesting.

The Minister for Education:

That is related to the autonomy as well. You were asking us about that at some point.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can I pick up on something, Justin, that you said you were hoping to sweep away restrictions around pay.

Director of Education: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Are you referring to any plans to move from the pay increments to any kind of performance related pay?

Director of Education: No, no, no.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay.

Director of Education:

While we are looking at freedoms here, I will give you some reassurances, if you like. We have been working very closely with the unions about what we would keep in place. So it will not look like England, where every school can have its own Ts and Cs (Terms and Conditions). It would be chaos here.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

How is Les Quennevais School progressing?

The Minister for Education:

Very well. It is at the moment with - I will just look up my notes again - it is with Property Holdings at the moment. In fact, I will give you a bit of an update from the architect that I had, just the other day. They have gained the pre-application advice through the Architectural Commission and they are having a further meeting with them. The planning officers have not made any comments as yet, and we would not expect them to at this point in time. There is likely to be a planning inquiry, I would think, which is kind of ... we want to promote that, if possible, because I think that leads to the greater inclusion of the people who are going to be involved in the decision making. In terms of the way the architects and Property Holdings have worked with the school, they have had design things. They have spoken to forums of parents and teachers and students, and that has gone into the physical makeup of the architecture of the school. At the moment, it is with Property Holdings and the next stage is then for it to go into Planning, and then we do not know. We have to wait and see what the outcome of that is but it is still ... I have just had a small thing, a form has come through today, which shows that they are on target, basically, for where they wanted to be at this point in time.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

What are potentially the greatest difficulties you might anticipate that could slow things down or get in the way of making progress in the way you would want to?

The Minister for Education:

Having been on the Planning Appeals Panel, I think there are always problems when you are going into something as sizeable as this. There are all sorts of things that could trip us up, but I think that the one biggest amount of noise we have heard is about the traffic, and I think we have some answers to that. There are some concerns the Constable has, who is my Assistant Minister, about traffic in particular, so we are hoping to address those.

Director of Education:

This will be school 49 that I have had built on my watch, in various parts of the world, and the biggest problem is slow worms. I dread finding slow worms.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Finding what, sorry?

Director of Education:

Slow worms. Because you have to catch them and ... you would be amazed how many schools have been built a year late because of slow worms.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I was not expecting that to be a topic of discussion.

Director of Education:

No. You need to have your wellies and your nets. I am an expert. I could tell you all about catching slow worms and relocating them.

The Minister for Education:

It is interesting. Just to amplify, this is from the Assistant Head: "Presentations were made to all the staff and school governors, including the library service team, of the initial floor plans." Visits have been made to schools in the U.K. to identify some of the best features. We have seen models of the school. The interior is absolutely wonderful. I think it is has really been designed with children in mind. It is spacious, it is full of light. I think the next step will be, once it gets into Planning, to make sure we have ticked all the boxes there.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I recall that, during the consultation, you had involved the children a lot?

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Is that still the case?

The Minister for Education: Absolutely.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can the children still have a say in what is happening?

The Minister for Education:

I think most people have heard me repeat the phrase "Design thinking", and design thinking was very much part of what the children have done. We walked them through. They have seen 3D models of the school. They themselves have requested things, and the architect has taken those on board. All of those meetings, from staff in particular, have wanted to make sure that the school represents the best quality that it could find at this point in time.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

So, first of all, can we thank the department for the publication of R51, looking at higher education, where we are in Jersey and where we may be going forward. Minister, I wonder if we can ask, in relation to the statement on page 6 and what the Chief Officer has said multiple times in our public hearings, when it says, in the U.K., higher education funding and post-16 education funding at Highlands is separate from the overall education budget for schools, whereas in Jersey, the budget is inclusive. This means that the higher education inevitably loses out in budget, because the Education Department always has to fund essentially its frontline service in primary and secondary schools. Can I ask whether, at a political level, Minister, you have made any decision about how this issue can be addressed and changed?

The Minister for Education:

No. What this report represents, and I have said this publicly, is where we are at this point in time. Again, today we had a meeting with the other Islands, with the Isle of Man and Guernsey, to see how they are addressing the problem. We have similar problems and we have similar solutions. At the moment, with the budget that we have, and the budget constraints that everybody knows about, we are confined to what we can do in this space and utilise the tools that we have. There is no new funding to be identified at this point.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

That was not quite my question.

The Minister for Education: Okay. Sorry.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

What I tried to get at was, I think your Chief Officer has suggested that a splitting of the budget between what goes to primary and secondary schools, and what goes to higher education, there should be some sort of split in that budget, so that when cuts come in the percentage does not affect as highlighted on page 6 of your report. Or have I misunderstood it?

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Director of Education:

Yes. I do not mind it all one pot, as long as higher education funding increases, the pot increases. What I do not want to do is be cutting money from schools and special educational needs in order to fund growth in higher education. Either we need to split them, which is fine, fund them separately as in the U.K. or put them together, but make sure there is enough money in there to make sure the schools are not subsidising higher education or, for that matter, vice versa.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Yes, because I had understood, for example, if Education had to cut its budget by 2 per cent because it is slightly over-inflated, because the higher education funding is kept in, unlike the U.K., where it is somewhere else, it means that it has a greater impact on the school cut that has to happen. Would that be correct in saying?

Director of Education:

All in one place. Yes, you are quite right.

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Director of Education:

Have it all in one place, changes in the higher education have an impact on schools. I think it would be better not ... either make sure there is enough money to do that or separate them out, one or the other.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

In which case, Minister, is there a passion for you ... do you have any will to change the type of arrangement, given that, under the circumstances we find ourselves?

The Minister for Education:

I love the way you use the word "passion" for it. Absolutely. We are still in those discussions with Treasury. We are still trying to identify can we increase the margins of our offering? But, at the moment, no, we are where we are.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Thank you.

[19:45]

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Excellent. Would you prefer, Minister, that higher education was not part of your overall budget?

The Minister for Education:

It would be different. If there was an opportunity to do something like that, as the Director has already said, yes, it gives us some clarity.

The Deputy of St. John :

Could you not just turn student finance into a trading operation?

The Minister for Education: I am sorry. I did not hear you.

The Deputy of St. John :

Could you not just turn student finance into a trading operation such as the fleet management, such as the car park trading fund?

Director of Education:

Not really, because that team does lots ...

The Deputy of St. John : So it is ring-fenced.

Director of Education:

Yes. That team does a lot. We could certainly build in actual ring-fencing. The U.K., for example, have the D.S.G. (Dedicated Schools Grant) and minimum funding guarantees. We could do something like that, but the trouble with the student finance team, it does a lot of other things besides. It is closely connected to the careers service. They sit next to each other and work closely together. I think putting that out would be problematic. It is quite a small team, as well. But we could look at ring-fencing. You are quite right, Deputy . There is a concern where changing school budgets has an impact on higher education budgets and vice versa. Highlands College, we spend about £8 million-ish, and if we need to grow that budget because numbers are growing, it will have to be at the expense of one of the others. It would be nice to put some dividing lines between them, but we could probably do that internally as officers, if we put our minds to it.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Thank you. We might check that at another date. Looking at the report, there was a section at page 14 which talks about student loans. I will broaden this out. Just for the record, we have had expressed some concerns about some of the assumptions used when calculating the maximum liability. Can you, just for the record, confirm that when you are doing your calculations, did you have to basically explain what the maximum liability could be, when introducing the States loan system?

Director of Education:

Yes. Worst case scenarios, yes.

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

But that in practicality, that might not be the total figure?

Director of Education: Correct, yes.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Okay. Thank you for that. Again, looking at this question on page 14, where it expresses a concern where, for example, students might not come back to the Island in order not to have to pay back their loans. Was any consideration given that perhaps instead of the loan being taken out by the student, perhaps a parent loan system might be used, because they are more likely to be here or to have a property here, all those types of things? Was that considered?

The Minister for Education:

There was a consideration and, again, that is another discussion I am still having with Treasury, because it was mooted, could we look at a guarantee from the parents. The problem that you have, though, to some extent, is that you could end up with the States then saying: "You have defaulted on your loan and therefore we have to then look at getting you out of your house," if that is the situation. We would not want to be in that area. But it is another thing we have looked at, yes.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Okay. Thank you. Looking at, if I can find it ... yes, I just want to see whether the Minister would like to comment further on part C, about redistribution of funds.

The Minister for Education: Where are we now?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

We are at page 18, looking at the redistribution of funds, the current funds. Whether there is any statement that you would like to make about the current systems?

The Minister for Education:

Are you are talking about it has not changed? Yes, that is a real bugbear with me, and I would like to address that if it is at all possible. Again, that is another discussion that I have had with Treasury, but that is an ongoing discussion. At the moment, you know yourself, because we have provided the figures, there is not any room. It is a question you have asked several times in the past. There is not any room to increase that.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Thank you.

The Deputy of St. John :

Can I ask, Minister, the Higher Education Fund, as it currently sits, there is a means test in applying for it, and there is a threshold of £26,750, if I remember correctly.

The Minister for Education: Yes.

The Deputy of St. John :

We have recently been discussing the Nursery Education Fund, and it was mentioned at one of those hearings about the median income of £52,900. But then the Education Department has decided to set it at £75,000. Have you done figures about if you were to change the higher education along the same lines as what you are proposing for the N.E.F.?

Director of Education:

We have done that as a separate exercise. Some time ago, before we got into this, the budgets suddenly went through the ceiling. They just got out of control. We spent a lot of time looking at, could we spend the current pot better? In terms of the support group who were looking at putting pressure on us to bring a U.K. levels scheme in, we had them around the table and they brought forward proposals in order to spend the same money differently. When we looked at it, it simply changed the winners and the losers. We would still be funding broadly the same number of people, but we would simply move the pain. We think that the system we currently have is probably the fairest, in the sense it is focused on the most vulnerable in terms of financial context. So we had explored lots and lots of models, to see if we could squeeze more out of the current expenditure, including looking imaginatively at the income bands, having sliding scales rather than cut-off points, raising one for fees and lowering the other for maintenance grounds, all that kind of thing. In the end, we were still going to support broadly the same amount of people for that amount of money. It is not a great deal of money, considering that 400 or 500 students a year will go off to university.

The Deputy of St. John :

The only reason I ask is because, obviously, this report has come out. I think a lot of people are expecting to see some kind of conclusion ...

The Minister for Education: Yes, yes.

The Deputy of St. John :

... or something that was going to be taken forward. But it just appears there are more reviews, there are more discussions, there are more meetings, and we will find out at some point. As a kind of stopping point, until you get to the point of having a final conclusion to how to deal with this particular situation that everyone finds themselves in, would you not look at raising the threshold just until you have achieved something out of the higher education review that you have been doing?

Director of Education:

If we did that, we would have to cut the budget somewhere else. That would be great if we had additional funding, but we do not. When you say "coming to a conclusion", the problem we have here is that we spent the last year looking at a U.K. loan system, and our advice as officers is, we simply cannot afford it, and getting that message across is proving difficult. People are disappointed with it, and their instinct is, we should be able to do it. We have asked everybody. Nobody has come forward with a practical solution to show how we could do it. We have lots of people saying there really ought to be a solution, but nobody coming forward with a solution, other than: "Spend more money or spend the same amount of money differently."

The Minister for Education:

It is worth to note, when we had the discussion with the Isle of Man today, because they have gone through the situation where their students now have gone through the first 3 years of this loan that they have been doing, and they are worried. Their director did say he wished he did not have it; it was a burden. It was a burden that was growing to grow. But this is the first opportunity they will have to see how that is paid back and when it is paid back, so we will be able to watch what happens there.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Minister, just going back to increasing the threshold, surely there is scope for you to submit a growth bid for increasing the threshold, so it does not have to come out of your current budget, for the next round of the M.T.F.P.?

The Minister for Education: Not at this point in time, no.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

You are able to submit growth bids.

The Minister for Education:

Yes, I am able to put in the growth bid, but as the Director says, if we did that, we would find ourselves in a very difficult position.

The Deputy of St. John :

If education is a strategic priority and we are being told that skills are absolutely imperative and important, we need graduates coming back to the Island, we need that support, especially with the ageing demographics that are coming forward. That is all well and fine and we all believe in that and we want to achieve that by the end of the term, as a States Assembly, then surely your last resort would be to look at raising the taxes? Say, for example, reversing the marginal rate decision that was made. That is £7.8 million. Have those discussions been had with Treasury?

The Minister for Education: They have, to some extent, yes.

The Deputy of St. John : Treasury are saying ...?

The Minister for Education:

Treasury are saying: "No" at this moment in time, yes.

The Deputy of St. John : Okay.

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Director of Education:

In terms of the skill shortage on the Island, I differ slightly, in that the number of graduates we have who are coming to the Island is quite positive. Where we have a gap in the skills market is through the technical apprenticeships and those kind of areas. If you look at our level 3 qualifications, we do really well at A level and high quality degrees, where people are coming back to the Island, sometimes not for a while, they come back and they have their own family. Where we do have a gap, your point about skills on the Island, I would argue it is in the technical level 3 qualifications, and that is why we are doing a lot of work with Highlands, and we are going to submit a growth bid into the funnily named E.G.P.D. (Economic Growth and Productivity Development) fund. I am not sure what ... in order to focus on skill development. I am not sure what E.G.P.D. stands for, but

The Deputy of St. John :

The Economic Growth and Productivity Development Fund.

The Minister for Education: There you go.

Director of Education:

It is easier to remember E.G.P.D. fund.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

She has an eidetic memory.

Director of Education:

Yes. We think there is a real gap in Jersey for, if you like, the layer of skill development just below degree level, and that is something we are going to look at very carefully.

The Deputy of St. John :

You say you "believe". You do not have evidence as such?

Director of Education:

We do. The Skills Board have looked at this. You will have seen reports from the Skills Board in terms of their analysis. We have spoken to the ... the I.o.D. (Institute of Directors) make this point. The Chamber of Commerce makes this point. There is a lot of evidence to suggest that we do need better level 3 skills qualifications to go forward, and we put a growth bid in to do something about that.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

If I can just ask a few technical questions.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Would you like us to wait until the Minister returns? He has a family issue to deal with.

Director of Education:

I am happy to keep going.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

There are a few technical questions, just for my understanding. On page 5 of the report, it looked at numbers in Jersey and the U.K., total numbers of students attending university. I wonder if we draw any conclusions from that table? I am interested in whether the bulge years were factored into this particular table?

Director of Education:

No. These are actual numbers.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Okay.

Director of Education:

There has been a drop in the last couple of years. You will notice, from 2006 right through to 2013- 2014, if there has been a drop in the U.K., there has been a slight increase in Jersey, and the figures all come to around about 1,300. But when you get to 2014 and 2015, they drop by a few hundred. That is partly because the demographics' slight drop, but not entirely. So what that is showing is there is a slight reduction as a percentage, beyond young people pursuing a degree, particularly off- Island. If you look, it has gone from 1,137 to 948, that is partly because of the size of the year, but I think parents are finding it increasingly expensive to get their kids through higher education. It does show some evidence that there is a real issue here.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Those are the questions I had, so thank you very much for that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I did want to ask about the action points that you had. Minister, are you happy to continue?

The Minister for Education: I am fine.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Good. The action points on the last page, and it mentions: "Top level political delegation to open discussions with the U.K. on the student loans." Which seems to me to be something which should be of utmost priority, is that something which is happening imminently?

The Minister for Education:

We discussed it today. We are going along 3 Islands, it is a pan-island meeting, we are going to go along as 3 Islands and speak to them and see if we can open up those discussions further because we think it carries a bit more weight and a bit more gravitas if we do that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : When is that happening?

The Minister for Education:

We do not know, we have only agreed it today and unfortunately the Minister from Guernsey could not attend, he has only just been elected so his officer has gone back to agree with all of that. But I am sure he will agree to that.

Director of Education:

We agreed to it quite quickly because the Minister from the Isle of Man will step down as Minister for Education in October. He has gone to the House of Keys or something?

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Deputy S.Y. Mezéc: The Legislative Council.

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Director of Education:

So we are keen that we get the visit in before he goes because he is a very powerful, very influential and persuasive character, he is a very difficult guy to say no to, as we know; but also he is very familiar with the case, he has been living and breathing it for the last 3 or 4 years so we need to get on with it quite quickly.

The Minister for Education:

The other consideration is that we have had alumni of Cambridge come to us and we have agreed, again as a pan-island, to approach Cambridge and see if they will remove the international student status as well.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So do you feel quite hopeful that those talks will produce maybe a solution to the student loans issue?

The Minister for Education:

I could not say. I am an optimist at heart.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Looking at part D, expansion of Campus Jersey, being a home grown graduate I do welcome that type of thing but I just wonder what wider conversations were had with E.D. (Education Department), Skills Board, and the business community. Because my understanding is part of the advantage of having a graduate that had gone away to the U.K. was the softer skills, the life skills that had been learned, and that was one of the advantages that businesses liked having of a graduate as opposed to someone who had come from the system. Have those conversations been had?

The Minister for Education:

They are, but that is a "nice to have" I mean, what we are talking about here is parents being put under financial pressure and this is one of the ways to address that so, again, we have discussed Campus Jersey.

[20:00]

I think we have a second meeting coming up next week and that is bringing together Highlands, the University of Jersey, Jersey International Business School, the nursing degree qualifications, the Law Institute, and J.I.C.A.S. (Jersey International Centre of Advanced Studies) which is the postgrad situation. We are looking to first of all consolidate that, and they have all agreed to that and in fact it is the first time I think that the nursing degree have attended a meeting where they were invited, apart from anything else. So the concept of that is really beginning to formulate.

Director of Education:

We are trying to learn from the 3 Islands and we are quite interested in the scheme that the Isle of Man have put together, they have got a really quite well worked up partnership with Chester University, a very good university. The plan there is - and it looks like that will be in place quite soon and we need to look at this - is that students will do their university degree the first 2 years on-Island and then will go away for the third year, so they will get a mix and match. It reduces the fees to I think about £3,000 or something, and the fees come right down, you reduce the costs of maintenance and all sorts of other things, but they still have that final year away. That is quite an interesting compromise. You have got to be careful because if you are not careful that will constrain the choice of degree but, nevertheless, we think that is a model. We want a flexible market so that families can choose different routes.

The Minister for Education:

The other consideration we had today was that when we went along to the Isle of Man - so we have had 3 meetings moving around the Islands to see what offerings were available - we were quite surprised to see such a large engineering degree in the Isle of Man. We said: "Could we then access this for our students and have reduced fees?" They said: "Yes, and can we come to Jersey and send our students with regard to nursing?" We said: "Yes, we will open up those discussions and see if we could do that." What seems to be at the core of that, again, Chester is the one that we use for our nursing degree and it is Chester that the Isle of Man have aligned themselves with.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So it seems like there are some good ideas in the works. Is there a sense of urgency? Do you have that sense of the public being quite desperate for a solution here?

The Minister for Education: Absolutely, yes.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Just one final question, again it is looking at part E and exploring the opportunities of universities in Europe, but I just wonder, again it is talking about having those wider discussions with the business community about how well that would be received in the sense that a British university has aspects that go with it or is understood by parts of the business community over here. How would the University of Amsterdam or Paris or Berlin be received? Has that work been done?

Director of Education:

Yes, we have spoken about that. Interestingly it would be received very, very warmly. That goes back to your point about soft skills. What the industry is saying to us is that shows initiative, it makes them different, it shows they have confidence. For example, we have our first tentative steps in a few weeks' time, we are having 6 heads from secondary schools visiting 2 universities in France to go to their art departments. Those universities agreed that if those students would like to join those universities for their art degrees they would only have to pay 500 and they would make available an introductory year so that those students could acquire the language and the French culture while doing some preliminary work, and then have a degree in Rennes and other universities. We have also been talking to the University of Maastricht where virtually all the degrees are taught in English, there the fees are 3,000. Highly regarded across the world, these universities. The feedback we are getting from the industry is that they would be warmly received because they would be quite interesting and different individuals. At the moment we only have 20 or 30 or so who are regularly going off to university in Europe, one or 2 off to America, and that tends to be because of family connections. So we are looking at that as a real possibility.

The Minister for Education:

Again, we heard from the Isle of Man that they had looked at Germany and Denmark and apparently the Denmark education is free. We have not looked at that ourselves yet.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Thank you for your answers on that subject. I think we will move on now to your strategic priorities. You had 4 priorities, I wanted to ask you about the raising standards element. What has been done so far that you have not shared with us on raising standards, please?

Director of Education:

I have prepared a bit of a handout, is that allowed?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes, please do. Once a teacher.

Director of Education:

I have a Minister who is a very visual.

The Minister for Education: Yes, to say the least.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Is there homework for us as well?

The Minister for Education: There is a small bit, yes.

Director of Education:

I just thought it would be a good way of bringing you up to speed on where we are in terms of raising standards. We can talk to you about curriculum and others as we go. Members of the public are quite welcome to copies if it helps. As you know we have got a 3-year business plan, the first year ended at Easter so we are about to review our business plan with heads and the rest of it. What we are trying to do is set up during those 3 years 2 cycles to lead inextricably to raised standards. On the left-hand side we have the main of those cycles and that is teaching and learning, so if you start with the curriculum so what we are saying is in Jersey we need to be clear as a profession, as a system, as a community of schools and professionals, what it is we want children to learn and why and when. So we need to agree our curriculum. Secondly, we need to have an assessment framework which is coherent across the Island, unlike in the U.K. where it is all broken up, so we can check that children have understood what it is we decide we want to teach them. Then we need a moderation system to make sure that when we assess the children in Grouville we are applying the same standards as we are in Les Landes, for example. From that we can collect data so we know how children are progressing, and then because of that data we can have a conversation about what we teach, when we teach, how we need to teach it. I think the example I have given to you before is a good example, we need to know as an education community, for example - one very small example - how many children are not reading for fun at the time they get to the end of year 4? Because if they are not reading for fun by the time they get to the end of year 6 when they go to secondary school they never will, especially boys, and that takes a grade off their G.C.S.E.s (General Certificate of Secondary Education). That is a very important cycle so in terms of progress we have rewritten the history and geography curriculum so it now is embedded in Jersey's history, Jersey's geography, Jersey's culture; developed a careers curriculum here; we have reviewed the P.S.H.E. curriculum; and most importantly of all we have reshaped the technical and vocational curriculum offered at Highlands College so the students opting in now are opting into a very different curriculum. So we are pretty well there with the curriculum and the feedback we got from our school survey was: "Please stop changing things about" so as soon as you tell us when you have finished messing about with the curriculum basically is what they were saying. Well, we are not messing around, we are reshaping it. We have an agreed assessment framework across our primary schools. England, as you know, every school is doing its own thing, here we now have an agreed assessment framework which we are piloting right now as we speak. We are very close to having an agreed assessment framework with our secondary schools, slightly more contentious because of the new arrangements around tracking progress. So our measure will be about progress rather than just the number of kids who get A*s to Cs. A moderation process is in place, it is being developed, we have a team of moderators fully trained, armed, and out doing their work.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Armed?

Director of Education:

Yes, with skills and training rather than weapons.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : That is a relief.

Director of Education:

We have a data system which we are now beginning to rely on. If you remember when I spoke to you a year ago we did not have data, we are now having data which we are using to great effect with our schools. For example, we are now able to demonstrate the impact of what we think is relatively low expectations in some areas by using data on kids. So that is what we are looking to achieve in 3 years. We are slightly ahead of schedule. The right-hand circle ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can I just ask you something? You said there was some contention around the tracking progress in secondary?

Director of Education:

Yes, and I understand it and I am nervous about this a little bit myself. In our blood and bones, those of us who work in secondary and I am an ex-secondary teacher, we work on 5 G.C.S.E.s, A* to C, including English and Math, it is the measure we have all worked on. The problem with that is you are only really counting half the population or 60 per cent. Kids who do not get 5 A* to C are just off the tables, so when you are holding schools to account you are not holding to account for all the children. So we are introducing a scheme, as is England, to hold schools to account for the progress all children make and that is called Progress 8. So what you do is take the children's progress they made from the end of key stage 2 to key stage 4 across all their subjects and you give the school credit for their best 8. So if they take 10 G.C.S.E.s you do not look at the end result, you look at the progress they have made over 5 years, you measure that progress. You give the school credit for their best 8 results and that comes out as a value added score. If they make expected progress that score is 1,000, if they make better than expected progress it is above 1,000 and below, so it is value added data and it is quite powerful and there is nowhere to hide from it. For example, at the moment, if you are struggling in a maths department in recruiting staff you are always going to put your best maths teacher on your G.C.S.E. group that you think are going to get their As, Bs and Cs. This system does not allow for that, this system will say: "We are going to measure the progress on all your children." So your lowest performing children probably need the biggest boost so that is where your best teacher should go, and that changes the landscape for holding schools to account. It is quite nerve-wracking for some of our schools.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So this new is something which is happening in the U.K.?

Director of Education: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

It is to hold schools to account but what evidence is there that this method improves pupils' learning?

Director of Education:

Because it is based on progress, not just attainment. So we have some children that will not get an A, B or C at G.C.S.E., or in the new numbers 1 to 9 because all that is changing as well, but for them getting currently a D, for example, is a huge step forward in terms of where they started. What this does is encourage those children. In countries that adopt similar - not the same but similar - measures, Holland for example, if you look at their results they do not have the long tale of underachievement that we have in England. It is a much fairer system and it allows, for example, Haute Vallée to compare itself with J.C.G. (Jersey College for Girls) because J.C.G. results are always going to be above Haute Vallée's because they have skimmed off some of the higher performing children, or certainly Hautlieu, for example. But if you are comparing the progress children make at Hautlieu to the progress children make at Haute Vallée it is a very fair comparison. I think for us in Jersey where we have got a particular structure which is unusual, not unique as we like to think sometimes but unusual, it is a much fairer system.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I am just looking at this, still at the left side which is headed "Teaching and Learning" and I cannot see in the detail of it here anything about learning, it all seems to be about performing, moderation and, as you have said, accountability. Where is the actual support that you are improving in terms of helping pupils' learning?

Director of Education:

It is a brief diagram that covers a very complicated process so the curriculum is all about what will be taught, the assessment framework is making sure it is being taught properly and well, and I will come in a moment to the other side which is the support in place. So the whole thing really is about teaching and learning, what you teach, how you teach it, how you monitor the progress children are making. Jersey has never had this system in place, it has had bits of it in place but it has never had the whole sequence and we are slightly ahead of schedule on getting it, but only slightly, where we should be. The breakthrough for us will be agreeing at the end of this term the assessment framework for secondary schools. That is going to be very difficult because the key stage 3 curriculum is significantly different to the existing curriculum. There are no levels. Teachers have got used to levels and hated them when they first came out but now all their planning is based on levels and they have gone. It is like a security blanket disappearing from under our feet. In my view it is high time they went, we have got too reliant on them.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

So if you are not measuring students' progress on: "You have gone from a level 3 and you have managed to go to a level 5 and that is brilliant because the average is a 1.5-point increase, whereas if you get a 2 that is a good movement" what system is in place then if the level system is not going to be there?

Director of Education:

It will be replaced by learning objectives and so what we are doing right now is working with the subject specialists to decide what are the reasonable learning objectives for certain ages, and we can do that in Jersey for Jersey's pupils. The problem we are going to have is for the first year, possibly the first 2 years, the data we will get will be quite unreliable because the moderation process has taken 3 or 4 years to hone down so now when you look at the data we have got across the schools in the Island it is very reliable, it really is. No matter how you test it and pull it apart it is really quite robust. When the kids go into secondary school, the secondary schools still carry out tests and when they compare their tests with the teacher assessments they are always spot on, but we are going to have to go through that process all over again. So we are going to have to be very careful what we publish and how we publish it. The most important thing is to get the teaching right.

[20:15]

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

In my opinion it was difficult enough for parents to understand the level system, how are parents going to be able to understand this system?

Director of Education:

We have produced some documents for parents. We have produced a leaflet, for example, which talks about all the changes in the assessment framework. Look, we have had it read by parents and got feedback and changed it to try and make it parent friendly, so we have got that and what we have done is we are skilling up all our schools so that schools can explain in some detail about the process. But it is going to take a little while.

The Minister for Education:

We will also be putting the curriculum online shortly.

Director of Education:

It is already up.

The Minister for Education: Okay, well there you go.

Director of Education:

The parents are finding the new curriculum document we have put up really quite helpful. The feedback we are getting is really fairly positive. The trouble is they do not know it is there, we are not yet explaining it, so when people ask us about the curriculum we give them the link and they go away and come back and hopefully that is very helpful. I have to say, that was somebody else's work that we have adopted and changed for Jersey, so a lot of the work was already done for us by another organisation and we have kind of Jersey-fied it.

The Deputy of St. John :

Can I ask, you mentioned about tests and talking about the whole testing and there was a recent media release about S.A.T.s (Scholastic Aptitude Tests) and that you will be piloting it in primary schools, I believe. Could you explain why and what that is for?

Director of Education:

Yes, our assessment framework will always be based on teacher assessments, certainly while I am here, for all sorts of reasons we could talk about all night. But if you are having teacher assessments and you are making decisions Island-wide on progress and the curriculum development you need to make sure those assessments are the same across the Island. There are 2 ways of doing that, the first is a moderation process which we have built in and we think that is pretty robust, and the other is to test the children. One possibility - and we have not decided to do this yet but we have a group of head teachers working with us at the moment - is to have a sample of children across the Island, not all children, sit a test and test, if you like, the voracity of our Island-wide system. We do not know whether we are going to do that or not. We have 3 or 4 schools have volunteered just to get some kids to sit it so we can have a look at it, see if it is going to be of any use to us, and compare those results with our teacher assessments. Because we simply do not know whether it is going to be of any use to us or not until the children have had a go at it. So we have not decided yet whether or not to use it, if we do use it, it would be for sampling purposes only.

The Minister for Education: We are not bringing in S.A.T.s.

Director of Education:

We are not going to have S.A.T.s and certainly what we would not be doing is having S.A.T.s and using them in the way that England uses them, to kind of call in Ofsted and name and shame. So our view is assessments should be based on teacher assessments, they know the kids well, particularly at primary schools, they have got a really good track record of getting this right but we just need to test the veracity across the Island to do that. I suspect we will find the moderation process will do that for us. So we are looking at S.A.T.s just to see whether or not it is something we would want to discuss later with the group.

The Deputy of St. John :

So it is more of a qualification process rather than a ...

The Minister for Education: Yes, it is road testing it.

Director of Education: Yes.

The Deputy of St. John :

Qualifying the assessment and making sure the data that you are receiving in is up to scratch.

Director of Education: Absolutely.

The Minister for Education: Absolutely.

Director of Education:

If we do - and it is a big if - use S.A.T.s as a sample process to do that we would not be, for example, uploading their results on to the children's records. It would not be for that purpose.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Minister, will the children that take part in the S.A.T.s, are the parents able to opt in or out?

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So they will be fully informed?

Director of Education:

Yes. On the right-hand side, a little simpler, so around teaching and learning and assessment progress and all that, the right-hand side, that is the bigger picture. So starting here on the right- hand side the first thing we need to do is monitor what we are doing by parish, by year groups, by schools, by the Island, how are our children progressing. To do that we need data and we are out to procurement now for a new data system which would come in this September. I think it will take a year before all schools are comfortable with it. We need to make it as simple as we possibly can so that teachers in particular are assessing once. At the moment they are assessing and then they are copying that information into their mark books and then they are copying it on to a spreadsheet and then they are having to put it in another system for us. We need a system where as teachers assess it just loads straight up on to the system, so we should be in place for that next year, we have the funding for that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Could I just ask if we go through this bit quite quickly because we are ...

Director of Education:

Sure, yes. Then we want to challenge to make sure that we are saying to schools: "We have these kids in front of us for 11 years, what are we doing to make sure that they do not just get their predicted targets but they do better than added?" which is why value added and progress are so important. We then need to put support in place, which is why I am a little disappointed that the feedback from teachers is ... it was not that they were negative about the training, it is just that it was all "fair" and "good", it was not 90 per cent saying it is fantastic and we have to get 90 per cent saying it is fantastic because it is unfair to challenge teachers if you are not going to support them to meet those challenging targets. Then if all else fails we need to be able to intervene by sharing best practice and that should raise standards. So those are the 2 cycles we are putting in place and we are ahead of schedule in getting those in place and up and running over the 3 years. The main thing is taking schools with us, so every step of the way we are working with schools to work on this.

The Deputy of St. John :

One of the priorities you are talking about, the raising standards, and I think everyone is agreed that it is good to raise standards, but where does the balance lie in terms of the pressure that is applied? How do you ensure that that balance does not tip over to the point where not only teachers are overly stressed and are not getting the support possibly, for whatever reason that might be, but also the parents and the children being affected by it? Because all the changes that are happening, there are parents feeling those pressures and not quite understanding, no matter how much information they read because they have not been taught in the same way, so how do you address that balance in ensuring that it does not tip too far?

The Minister for Education:

Sorry, if just interrupt, I think the first line is the teachers themselves and in the visits that I have had with the schools - particularly the primary schools - in relation to a question you asked in the Assembly at one point, they see all the things that we are doing at the moment. I think it was related back to me by one of the head teachers as a bit of a gift, she said it was, because this is an opportunity for them to get in and do something different and do something more creative. But the concerns that are fed from the teachers to the head and the head back to us through the various forums and things, we have not had that great concern that you are relating to. We have not had that swathe of people. We have had sort of minor little concerns which we dealt with and generally they are dealt with by the schools in the situation, and I think you know yourselves that heads are very open to asking parents to come in and to resolve any situations at that point. So that is the first line. The second line is the sort of thing that the Director might want to just amplify.

Director of Education:

Well, lots of positive things came out of the staff survey, when we asked staff in schools - and this is just teachers, next time it will go out to all staff including T.A.s (Teacher Aide) and support workers

- what are the key priorities, what do you think we should be doing over the next 3 to 5 years, 84 per cent said raise standards, which I found really reassuring. Interestingly, and very surprisingly, 85 per cent invest in lifelong learning. We did not see that one coming so we need when we have our focus groups to unpack that, what is meant by that. Does that refer to higher education? Does it refer to the skills gap we were talking about earlier? We cannot not put pressure on to raise standards; that is our purpose. No matter how high educational standards are we need to either maintain them or raise them. The pressure, what we do is not to go too quickly and I think if we are not careful ... the teachers survey suggests we are starting to go just a little bit too quickly. So my response is we keep going, we keep working, we stick to our plan, we stick to our guns, we have agreed it with schools, we are going to run it, we have agreed it with the unions, we are going to run with it. But if we go too quickly we will crash and burn so we just need to get the pace right, that is the first thing. Secondly we need to get the support in place, which I mentioned, and thirdly we need to get better at communicating what it is we are trying to do and why because as soon as teachers understand why we are doing this ... so we are talking with our coms person, Tracey, and we are looking at trying to find some imaginative ways of podcasts, set some tea and coffee up and ask the teachers to come if they want and explain what it is we are trying to do. We need to get our message out.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can I just go back to the Deputy 's question? I think we are seeing some evidence that there are some issues in terms of the curriculum and difficulties around it and you suggest that you are not seeing lots of evidence. Is there a way you could possibly rather than waiting for people to come to you, could you go out and check that with families and parents and ask them if there are issues and how they are finding it?

Director of Education:

We are getting our schools to do that and the feedback from our schools is it is not a big issue. The feedback from our schools is we have a small number of parents who do have concerns, sometimes because they are not quite sure what is going on, but the feedback we are getting from asking heads and teachers to talk to parents about it is that it is not a big issue Island-wide . There are some concerns but broadly speaking parents are moving with us.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Minister, do you feel you could do more maybe just to check on that perhaps through the new parents' forum?

The Minister for Education:

Well, certainly through the forum. Just to amplify what the Director is saying, I think it is important to remember - and these are the visits that I have and I have still got more to go, some tomorrow strangely enough - we get very creative heads and heads that want progression and everything and they have created this new curriculum and said that it is a gift to them. That is an actual quote. The reason for that is they see opportunities there they never had before. That then needs to be communicated to the staff and it is the staff that then communicate this to both the children and the parents and we rely upon that information to come through in the way that it does so, yes, the parents' forum will be a good way to do that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, thank you for the details on raising standards. I wanted to touch on the curriculum which is one of your 4 strands, just briefly on the G.C.S.E.s. As far as we understand, the G.C.S.E.s have changed recently, is that correct?

Director of Education:

Yes, are changing over the next 3 years.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So would schools be requiring extra resources and things to go along with the new curriculum for G.C.S.E.s and are they getting extra funding to get those resources?

Director of Education:

G.C.S.E. courses are changing all the time, so even without the Government redesigning every year, if you look at the geography G.C.S.E. for example it changes on a regular basis, so there is constant change and the need to update books and materials. The new batch of G.C.S.E.s coming through over the next 3 years is more significant than the usual change but, nevertheless, it is not unusual. What we will do is any additional funding we can provide to schools to help them work that through we will give them, but the heads are aware of this and our view is they should have been planning for it and the feedback from most heads is they have been planning for it. The difficulty we have got is not so much the resource, it is the timing. They are coming out terribly, terribly late, so teachers need their syllabuses, they need textbooks which have not been written yet. My concern is that the resource will be teacher time. If they do not get the G.C.S.E. syllabuses out in time and the publishers do not get out the supporting materials in time it will put pressure on teachers at the last minute to do preparation and preparation should not be done at the last minute. So we have links with the examination boards and we are using those links to be kept up to date and we have lots of reassuring noises but that is my bigger concern.

The Minister for Education:

To answer your question, it was raised at the last union meeting and both the Director and I have had a conversation about it and said that if we can address that problem we will.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, so from the survey that you did would those findings show the teachers say they had plenty of resources or were they saying they need more resources?

Director of Education:

It was not an issue, it did not come up, no.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay, thank you.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Just briefly, looking at the A level results published in August 2015 it suggests that Jersey children are performing well compared to the national figures. Is this an endorsement of how our current system works, and how does the dispersed and limited provision currently available in Jersey impact on this performance?

Director of Education:

Delighted with the results in the summer, they are the best we have ever had, they are above England's so that is a good starting point. I know it sounds terribly childish but it is not childish, I think all of our education performance indicators should be above England because of the quality of the kids we have got and the hardworking staff. I think they could be better with a slightly different system. Our post-16 providers are very good at teaching A level. They are skilled at it, they work hard at it, they are ambitious for the kids, so I do not think a change in structure will have a big impact on our results because there is some very good practice here in Jersey that others could learn from.

[20:30]

I think the system could be more efficient, so we have some classes which are relatively small and not really financially viable. Now, I want them to run because for those students those are important courses so they should run. So we are meeting at the moment - and I think I mentioned it last time

- we have a small group working away looking at possible changes, the structure, and much greater collaboration in post-16 I think will bring some efficiencies in funding which could be used for other things. But the results themselves are pretty good. There are about 40 or 50 young people in Jersey a year, roughly speaking, that I think should be accessing A levels that are not at the moment because they are not quite getting the grades that they should. There are too many young people at the moment - and this is why our G.C.S.E. results I think need to go up some notches - that should be getting Bs and Cs and in Jersey they are getting Ds and Es. We are very good at getting kids A*s and As, less good at getting kids across that B/C boundary, and getting some lower grade A levels, Ds and Es are A level. Now, for those children that could be a fantastic performance and it gets them into London Met, U.E.L. (University of East London), into some universities and they can get their higher education experience if they can afford it, or if they get into the Jersey campus. So I think our A level results could be better in the sense of more young people getting some of the lower grades, interestingly, and therefore accessing higher education. But broadly speaking, our post-16 providers I think do a good job on it. It is not one of my concerns.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Just a time check, we have now passed 8.30 p.m. so if we can be even briefer than usual please on the answers.

Director of Education:

I am supposed to be having a romantic meal with my wife so the sooner we are finished, the less doghouse I will be in.

Deputy S.Y. Mezéc:

At the last public hearing we spoke a little bit about TalentLink and there were comments about it being a barrier to recruitment, and you said at the time that this was something that was ongoing, that you were looking at. Could you just give us an update about what is being done in that area now?

The Minister for Education:

Well, recruitment is the issue, I think, but TalentLink is certainly something that does give us concerns because it has been raised by several teachers. We have now gone on to create a filmed advert, we have now gone on to create a new brochure, we are looking at new links with universities so the Director - I am not sure, he can amplify this in a second - went off to Newcastle. We were looking for very specific kinds of teachers and that has been very rewarding, so we are targeting the kind of things that we need here on the Island. So between those sort of things and a review of TalentLink then I think we could address the recruitment problem to some extent. Do you want to just tell them about Newcastle?

Director of Education:

Yes, we are being proactive so we are going to universities that we think provide very good newly qualified teachers and Newcastle have a really good track record around maths and science in particular. So we have just recruited 4 newly qualified teachers from Newcastle University, they will start in our 11-16 schools in September. I was there on Tuesday trying to convince mathematicians to come our way, and the beauty of that of course is they do not go through TalentLink because it is a face to face conversation. What we need to do - going back to the point on autonomy - is to allow schools much greater freedom over their recruitment processes, so it becomes a personal relationship between the school and the person wanting to come. What TalentLink does is generate emails and it is not warm, it is not welcoming, it is not exciting. As you know, I have said to you before, I think teachers should be queuing up to come, we have got fantastic kids, great buildings, lovely beaches, teach fewer days, slightly shorter days, they have better pay; there are all sorts of reasons why they should come here. TalentLink is not the warm welcome they should get so we are working with HR on that but in the meantime we are kind of going around it and being proactive. The other ...

Deputy S.Y. Mezéc:

I am sorry to interrupt but we have quite a bit that we have to get on with, yes, sorry about that. Sticking on the subject of recruitment, but I think moving away from TalentLink, the question we have got to ask is about the big news story that there has been this week about the imposition of pay award on teachers. What impact do you think that is going to have on recruitment? Because that is a specific thing that was raised by teachers in the media this week.

Director of Education:

In terms of recruitment I do not think it will have any impact at all because our salaries are above those in England and when we recruit off-Island teachers are impressed with our higher salaries and lower tax. So in terms of recruitment I do not think it will have any impact at all.

The Minister for Education:

In fact, again to amplify what was discussed today, our salaries are higher than the Isle of Man and higher than Guernsey.

Deputy S.Y. Mezéc:

That was the next point, I was going to raise that in the last hearing you mentioned that even when you took into account the cost of living that they compared well. Is it possible at some point to get the figures that substantiate that?

The Minister for Education: Sure.

Director of Education:

We have talked in the past about having meetings between these and those are the kind of meetings that would be helpful, we could get that on the table, work that through with you.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think we have one in the diary, do we?

The Minister for Education: Yes, I think so.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

We will check that, thank you. Okay, thank you for those answers. The new parents' forum, we touched on it earlier, has that been set up and if so how are you making parents aware of it and recruiting parents for it?

The Minister for Education:

It has been set up, we have got a working group. Going back to the point the Director was making, we could take an additional 6 months because we need to get it right. We have kind of got our first task which is what does it look like now, what does the education system look like now, we want some quick wins and we want to create a longer term strategy. We have had a lot of talks with unions on freedoms in the schools with the framework, we have talked about the Jersey curriculum.

Director of Education: That is the autonomy.

The Minister for Education:

Sorry, that is the autonomy. Yes, sorry, I am moving on to the curriculum.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So the 6 months on the parents' forum, it is not taking an extra 6 months?

Director of Education: No, that was the other ...

The Minister for Education:

That was the autonomy, yes, sorry, I am mixing up my notes today, yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

That is something else, I was wondering.

The Minister for Education: Excuse me.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : That is fine.

The Minister for Education:

Yes, we have got 3 parents already, we are looking for 12 parents so we are going out and advertising on that. We have got a prospective independent chair, who we cannot name at the moment, but he seems very ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

How are you advertising and where are you reaching out to parents?

Director of Education:

We are starting with parents who we know have children in the S.E.N. (Special Educational Needs) because, if you remember what we said, we are going to go for the S.E.N. first and then broaden out. So we are inviting parents who we know are on our books who have children with special educational needs, particularly those who have been challenging us because I think it is very important, we want people to come along who will challenge us, not aggressively, but put us under pressure.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

How will you avoid always just hearing from the same people and how are you going to get the fresh voices?

Director of Education:

Well, the idea is that when those parents are recruited they will be trained and the training involves them going out and talking to other parents and coming back and engaging. So the idea is to create a network which is led by these 12, so they will be trained to do that. The training is very important because what we want to produce is a network and a forum, not a pressure group, and if you remember when Brian Lamb came he was quite clear about that. So that is the plan, to recruit, train and then, if you like, have our champions who will work and develop. There are all sorts of parental networks out there.

The Minister for Education:

In fact, it is down to your scrutiny that we have engaged with it in that way, you alerted us to that. We had it in the business plan but in terms of the engagement that you provided for us, that is how we have progressed it.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I am pleased the reviews are helpful. So you have 12 parents, how are you ensuring that there is an even spread among all the schools? Is there some way you could maybe have one parent from each school or something like that?

The Minister for Education:

It depends upon the numbers and who will come back to us. Hopefully we are going to get quite a few parents that are interested in this and, to some extent, there will be sort of terms of reference on the governance of it and that is why we are looking at this new independent chair. So he will have some say in it.

Director of Education:

The only reason we have got a few parents already lined up is because they have got wind of this and have put themselves forward, so straight after half term - I think on the Tuesday or Wednesday of half term - we are going to put something out to every single parent with a child with special education needs on the S.E.N. register and say to them: "Here is an opportunity, do you want to come forward?" So we are going to open that up to all parents.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, so you might get some new voices?

Director of Education:

Yes, and then we will make it clear to them their job is not there to represent their personal view, their job is to network with other parents and come forward.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Is there any funding attached to this?

Director of Education: Yes, it is fully funded.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : It is funded, okay.

Director of Education:

The idea then is of course that would become a subgroup of a much bigger forum where we would have parents as a sounding board for the curriculum and for the assessment arrangements, but we are still another 6 months away from that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Minister, could you possibly forward the terms of reference to the panel when they are completed?

The Minister for Education: Yes, of course.

The Deputy of St. John :

The next question is around behavioural issues in schools. How do you approach those children or how do you help or assist those children who have behavioural issues in the general class ...

The Minister for Education: Have what sorry, issues?

The Deputy of St. John :

Have behaviour issues in the general classroom atmosphere, that it is such a need in terms of they need specialised or separate schooling. I am just thinking in terms of - I know there is D'Hautree House for example - particularly in the secondary position.

The Minister for Education:

Well, we do, we have the alternative curriculum and we have D'Hautree House. We have quite skilled individuals. We have now brought the 3 areas together under one head, in fact we visited it last week to look at the alternative curriculum at Greenfields and to look at what is happening with the 3. But before they were 3 separate things so we are now running it as one.

The Deputy of St. John :

I know that, for example, St. James School was closed down in order to create more inclusivity in schools?

The Minister for Education: Yes.

The Deputy of St. John :

Why is that not the case in the secondary? Why do we still have separate for secondary school provision?

Director of Education:

It is simply because sometimes the older children have slightly more extreme behaviour issues and, therefore, have to be dealt with. But the numbers at D'Hautree House are tumbling, they are coming down and down and down. I think we will always need a resource, like a safe place for students to come out if they need to come out, possibly for short periods of time. But what we have done is not cut any of the resource, what we have done is as we have got more and more children into the mainstream schools they have been supported by an outreach team, and at the moment all of our primary school children are within that. I have to say our primary schools in particular are fantastically inclusive and work really hard, and I am very proud of them for what they do, and are making some remarkable progress. Sometimes we have a child whose behaviour in one school has burned so many bridges and damaged so many relationships we have to manage them out into another school and give them a fresh start and they begin to flourish. For secondary school at the moment I think the numbers we have at D'Hautree House I am reluctant to quote because they change on a daily basis, but it is single figures, 7, 8, 9 students at any one point. It used to be full. Many of those students will spend part of the time in school and part back. So what we are trying to do is have a more co-integrated resource so that on almost like a month by month basis we can look at it and say the kids in front of us now, there are more kids that we can be supporting in mainstream so we will move our resource there. The following month you might have to take 2 or 3 children out so we will move the resource back.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can I just clarify, Minister, you said there were 3 separate areas and now they are one, what were the 3 separate, were they separate buildings?

The Minister for Education:

There was D'Hautree House, there was the alternative curriculum and there was the primary support, so they had 3 separate budgets but we have now got it in ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So they were like 3 separate facilities?

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Director of Education:

Three buildings, 3 budgets, 3 heads, completely separate.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

It is just D'Hautree House now?

Director of Education:

No, we have still got the alternative curriculum at D'Hautree but one head teacher, who I am not allowed to name, am I?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : No need to.

Director of Education:

One head teacher overseeing the whole group and that has been in a transitional period this year because we wanted to take our time because these children are quite vulnerable. That transition will be completed by 1st September.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So there are still 3 facilities but one head teacher is leading the 3 as a whole?

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Director of Education:

The staff are appointed to the overall team so they can move and flow and we can move expertise around.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay, thank you.

The Minister for Education:

But we can keep track of the kids there as well in that sort of situation and I would recommend that you go and have a look at it, because we went to it last week, it was very good.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Just on the inclusive model versus the model of separate facilities. There has obviously been a move to the more inclusive model in primary, what are the costs of the inclusive model versus the separate facilities?

Director of Education: It is cheaper.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Which one is cheaper, sorry?

Director of Education:

Having kids in mainstream is cheaper because you do not have buildings and the rest of it, but what we have been doing though is not making the saving. So as more children have been going into the system we have kept the overall resource and all we have done got to more children more quickly. So as behaviour starts to become problematic we are able to intervene more early. That has happened this year so we are just beginning to see that happen.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Will that be maintained into the future?

Director of Education: Absolutely.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Thank you for that. The last hearing we had you mentioned, Minister, that you were implementing a new framework for holding schools to account. Is that what we have already touched on this evening or is it something different?

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Director of Education:

We have in part, but added into the cycle on the right-hand side we are working with schools - it is very much in draft at the moment - an evaluation framework so we can monitor the impact of all of what we are doing.

[20:45]

The idea is it will be a peer review system, so rather than an Ofsted team turning up we will have practicing head teachers trained, we will have our professional partners, and every now and again we will have somebody off the Island to come in to carry out a review. We have got our first draft in place, we have worked with schools on it, and the first pilot I think is June or July. We are going to have one go in the summer and then we will pilot it in the autumn term and then we will have a cycle which will be a 3 yearly cycle starting from January 2017. Again, we are more than happy to take you through the framework and have perhaps one or 2 of the heads in the room who have been working on it with us.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, perhaps we will save the detail on that for another date then, thank you.

Director of Education:

Yes, it is really quite important, I think you will find it quite interesting.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay, thank you.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Just very quickly, are there any demographic changes expected over the next few years?

The Minister for Education:

Yes, there are, in fact we have got another handout somewhere, one second. Here we go. I think you may have seen this before but if not ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Thank you. Yes, I think we have seen something similar to this.

The Minister for Education:

Okay, I thought you might have done.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : No, but please discuss.

The Minister for Education:

Well, I mean, it just sort of explains the situation that we find ourselves in, and I think you are already aware that we have accommodated for the growth in the spike in the primary cohort with the opening of D'Auvergne and Springfield in Trinity , I think it is. Other than that, I do not know, have you got questions about it?

Director of Education:

The secondary figures you will see are those primary kids coming through so at 2020 we suddenly hit a new all-time high for the number of kids in secondary schools. Our schools will be tight but with the expansion of Les Quennevais School there will be sufficient places.

The Minister for Education: Capacity.

The Deputy of St. John :

With the increase in the demographics you stated about the Trinity school nursery and St. Mary 's. Will that be coming in the M.T.F.P. for capital budget?

Director of Education:

It is already in the capital programme.

The Deputy of St. John :

It is already in the capital programme?

Director of Education: Yes.

The Deputy of St. John :

So that would have been in this year's budget then?

Director of Education:

Yes, so we have capital funding for Springfield, St. Mary 's and Trinity , what we do not have is any capital funding for St. Luke's and Les Landes, they would be the only 2 schools on the Island without a nursery. St. Luke's we think is doable ...

The Minister for Education: Too small.

Director of Education:

Well, we have come up with an idea.

The Minister for Education: I see, things have changed.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Go on, do tell.

Director of Education:

Well, I do not know, they told me today. I have to said to the Director for Standards ...

The Minister for Education:

We are very worried because it is a small site and there is a constant demand for it.

Director of Education:

I cannot figure out where we are going to put a nursery there. But the new head, Adam Turner, has come forward with some ideas. He is obviously cleverer than the whole of my team put together. But Les Landes would require a significant capital build and that will be difficult, as you know, in the coming years. But we will put it in and we will see. If we are not careful it will be the only school without a nursery.

Male Speaker: I think we are ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think we are. Minister, is there anything that you wanted to add, anything new that you are doing that you wanted to share with us that we do not already know about?

The Minister for Education:

We have spoken briefly about Campus Jersey so that is something sort of new in its context and we will keep you ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : About what, sorry?

The Minister for Education:

Campus Jersey, so we will keep you up to speed as we advance with that. You understand the new school at St. Martin 's will be opened on 17th June and D'Auvergne on the 23rd of June, of course the panel are quite welcome to come along. I think the only other thing that is on our agenda is that the business plan was so well received last year that we are going to review it and come up with a new business plan, so that will be done next month.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. Is there a published work programme with these new changes?

Director of Education:

We have got the business plan which is on the website and then each department has a very detailed plan underneath that. Everything is in there.

The Minister for Education: What do you mean by that?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Could we possibly have something which has your timetable of the plans that you are working on, like a work programme?

The Minister for Education:

I am sure we could provide that.

Director of Education: Yes, that is all in there.

The Deputy of St. John :

So the actual business plan you refer to is not under the business plan on the website though?

Director of Education:

The business plan is published; it was published that day.

The Deputy of St. John :

It is not on the gov.je website.

Director of Education: It is there.

The Deputy of St. John : Not under business plans.

Director of Education:

Well everybody prints it off from there.

The Deputy of St. John : Only Social Security is there.

Director of Education: No, it is there.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

We have had it, but maybe that is ...

Director of Education:

It is on the website; people print it out.

The Minister for Education:

We will have a look and we will sort it out.

The Deputy of St. John :

Sorry, I brought this up with - I cannot name names - the gentleman that works in the Chief Minister's Department that deals with these issues.

Director of Education:

Yes, he is wrong, it is there, people use it all the time. If I do not have a copy with me I just sit down on somebody's computer and pull it up and there it is.

The Deputy of St. John :

Maybe it is a different page then and it is not named business plan.

Director of Education:

I can email it to you if you like.

The Deputy of St. John : Okay.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Perhaps we can check on that.

Director of Education:

It was the first one to go up, that sounds terribly childish but ours was the first business plan to go on the system.

The Deputy of St. John :

All I am saying is that on the actual gov.je when you go to the Government administration and it talks about strategic plans, business plans and ...

The Minister for Education:

Okay, so I think it is under Education.

The Deputy of St. John :

The only one that comes up is Social Security, so if you are referring to a business plan, as you understand a business plan, and you look for it on the gov.je website the only one that comes up for 2016 is Social Security.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Minister, perhaps you could double check.

The Minister for Education:

I am sure it is easy to add a link into that but it is on our Education website.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

But you will double check the particulars ...

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Director of Education:

One of the comments we got back is how easy it is to find.

The Deputy of St. John :

Well I just go to the business plan page, all I am saying is that it is not there.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

The Minister is going to check for us, thank you very much, Minister. Thank you very much to the Minister and his team, to my panel and to the members of the public and the media for your attention this evening. If you want to come and have a chat with us feel free to come and say hello, or you can email scrutiny@gov.je if you have any comments or questions. Thank you to our technician who has been filming this evening. The hearing is now closed, thank you.

[20:51]