Education and Home Affairs - Quarterly Hearing - Minister for Home Affairs - Transcript - 10 March 2017

STATES OF JERSEY

Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Quarterly Hearing with the Minister for Home Affairs

FRIDAY, 10th MARCH 2017

Panel:

Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier (Chairman) Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. John

Witnesses:

The Minister for Home Affairs

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs

Chief Officer

Policy Director, Community and Constitutional Affairs Detective Chief Inspector

Head of Customs and Immigration

[11:04]

Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier (Chairman):

Welcome to this public hearing with the Minister for Home Affairs and we are the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel. Could I just ask everybody to make sure mobile phones are on flight safe mode, even though it is not a flight, just so that there is no interference? We will start by going round, for the microphone, saying who we are and what title. So I am Deputy Sam Mézec and I am chairing this hearing today.

Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. John :

Deputy Tracey Vallois of St. John , member of the panel.

Scrutiny Officer:

Mick Robbins, Scrutiny Officer.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Deputy Kristina Moore , Minister for Home Affairs.

Chief Officer:

Tom Walker , Chief Officer.

Policy Director, Community and Constitutional Affairs:

Helen Miles , Policy Director, Community and Constitutional Affairs.

Detective Chief Inspector:

Alison Fossey, D.C.I., Jersey Police.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

We need a microphone. That will pick it up.

Male Speaker:

Could I ask, Mr. Chairman, sir, if you could speak up because I could not hear who those 2 people were?

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Yes, if we could speak up. The room has been altered recently and we have not quite got the sound sorted out yet in terms of echoing and whatever so we can speak clearly and loudly if possible please. Minister, have you read the notice in front of you and confirm that you understand its contents?

The Minister for Home Affairs: I have and I do, thank you.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Excellent. Thank you very much. Okay. So we will crack on with the first question which Deputy Vallois will be asking.

The Deputy of St. John :

The Sexual Offences Law, which is due to go out to consultation, is it still planned to go out middle of this year?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It is indeed, yes. I think you have seen an initial summary of policy and drafting instructions. So at the moment this is still with law officers. I believe it is in first draft, being shared at an officer level, and are waiting for it to be progressed.

The Deputy of St. John :

Okay. We were also informed about the first Sexual Assault Referral Centre to be done in the first quarter of this year. How is that progressing?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

That is progressing very well. For a start it is going to be known as Dewbury House and the official launch date will be next month but I believe it will be operational very soon. We have got D.C.I. Fossey here who, I am sure, would be happy to provide you with more information.

Detective Chief Inspector:

Appreciate that. Okay. Well, we have been fairly busy as alluded to. We have been getting the building up to standard in terms of furnishings, medical equipment, et cetera. We have appointed a temporary co-ordinator at the moment who is driving the project work and we will be looking to go out to advert for a permanent co-ordinator, some crisis workers and a part time I.S.V.A. (independent sexual violence adviser) which is an independent sexual violence adviser. So these are all key roles that you need to be in the S.A.R.C. (Sexual Assault Referral Centre) to make it fully functional and open to the public. As you know, the whole intention is that people will be able to self-refer to the S.A.R.C. and you do not have to speak with the police before you can access the services there. So anybody who suffers a sexual assault can make use of the services of the S.A.R.C. without engaging with the police and they will be able to then access counselling, sexual health services, a forensic examination, which will then give them choices later if they want to engage with the criminal justice process.

The Deputy of St. John :

So you state that it is going to be launched next month but it will be an open service sooner than that?

Detective Chief Inspector:

No. It will be an open service as of the launch. Until you have the crisis workers in post you cannot operate 24 hours 7 days a week. They are the really key role and, as I say, we are going through the whole H.R. (human resources) process with job descriptions, evaluation and then going out to adverts for those posts and it is really important because they are independent people that will be there rather than the police.

The Deputy of St. John :

Minister, in relation to prostitution you informed us that the U.K. (United Kingdom) Home Affairs Committee is conducting an in-depth inquiry. Are you aware of how that is progressing?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I believe that has not come to a conclusion yet. I have not seen the full report.

Chief Officer:

My recollection of that is that the committee did a first interim report but then decided that the whole topic needed more work and the committee then to do a fuller piece of work. I think, unfortunately, that was then complicated by a high profile member of that committee and their personal circumstances and the fact that there was an allegation that they had had some connection with prostitution themselves and then leaving their role as chair of that particular U.K. Select Committee, as widely reported in the U.K. press, and I suspect that that probably delayed the next phase of their inquiry.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

This is connected to this question although it might sound like it is not initially. In the States I have asked questions about your intentions with regards to a potential future law on inciting racial hatred as a crime in the Island and you have said that it is something you want to look at but this piece of law is your priority at the moment. Is it a case of you wanting to do things one by one like this or do think there is any scope in your department to take on issues at the same time or is it a matter of resourcing or is it just a particular way that you are preferring to tackle these issues?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It is legislation one by one in this area perhaps but we have distinct priorities and we do have to prioritise work but these are not the only 2 pieces of work that we have going on. We have got a really broad remit at C.C.A. (Community and Constitutional Affairs) and officers are extremely busy and they often work very long hours in fact trying to keep up with the amount of work that we have. So we have had to implement a certain amount of prioritisation but the hate crime legislation will be progressed during this year, so it is not an unreasonable delay but it is simply a need to focus on each piece of work because the legislation is particularly in-depth and complex.

Chief Officer:

On that one, Deputy , what we do not do is we do not wait until the Sexual Offences Law is completely finished because obviously that has periods where that is very resource intensive in terms of policy officer time and we have just started to move beyond that point where we can start to think about the hate crime work. So we have had an initial meeting with the Law Officers' Department to talk about current prosecutorial framework and where we think there might be enhancements that can be made and to start to scope out how we will get that project delivered during this year and who needs to do what. So we have started the preparatory work in the expectation then that we will just move seamlessly from one to the other but we are not completely sitting on our hands.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Okay, thank you. Anything else under this one? Okay. We will move on to next one then. An ongoing thing is the 1,001 Days commitment so could we have an update on what is happening with that at the moment?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Absolutely. Well, it has now been taken on and driven by the Early Years and Childhood Partnership but still responsibility sits with the Minister for Home Affairs but, as you know, it is a cross- governmental brief so it sits very well with the E.Y.C.P. (Early Years and Childcare Partnership) under the chairmanship of Dr. Cathy Hamer. Work is going on and they are trying to maintain the pace of work. There are some action points still outstanding from the taskforce and those are being worked on but there is great progress being made in terms of baby friendly initiatives. I think you have been invited to a meeting when that accreditation visit takes place. I think perhaps the invitation might have gone out this morning.

Policy Director, Community and Constitutional Affairs: Yes, today. I think 5th April.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Also we are currently waiting for a report which will help to progress work around the Parents and Infant Partnership which is an important part of that work and also the implementation of Baby Steps Programme is making good progress as well and that is going to be run in conjunction with Family Nursing and Home Care because already the health visitors are very successfully working with the M.E.C.S.H. (Maternal Early Childhood Sustained Home-Visiting) project and so it sits very nicely with that work that they are conducting.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

One specific thing that you mentioned at the last quarterly hearing was about the package that pregnant women can pay for, £150, which covers G.P. (general practitioner) and midwifery visits. This particular package, when it was mentioned that it cost £150 to sign up to it; is there any sort of means testing or catering for families who simply cannot afford that amount, families who might be on income support, or who would find that initial fee difficult to reach?

Policy Director, Community and Constitutional Affairs:

From our perspective that is not something that hit really with 1,001 Critical Days; that is more about Health and Social Security. I think the answer to that is certainly I do not know. I would make the assumption that there would be either a fee waiver or some part of the income support benefit would be adjusted to enable women to access antenatal care and certainly if they were not accessing it through the G.P. service they would most definitely be able to access it within the antenatal services at the hospital.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Okay. I think at the last hearing there was something mentioned about a lack of universal antenatal preparation programme. Has anything been progressed since that?

[11:15]

Policy Director, Community and Constitutional Affairs:

Yes, that is the Baby Steps programme that the Minister alluded to. So the funding has been allocated for that and what we are is just in the preparatory throws of getting the staff in place. We are looking at 2 family support workers this year. The same for next year with a midwife and the benefit of this programme is N.S.P.C.C. (National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children) are already delivering the programme to a targeted set of parents and they are going to work with us up until the end of 2018 until it becomes fully universal.

The Deputy of St. John :

Sorry, can you just clear something up for me? In terms of the £150 package that was mentioned at the last quarterly hearing, you state that that is something to do with Health and Social Security, was it, or was it just the funding for it?

Policy Director, Community and Constitutional Affairs:

What happens is, rather than ... the old system was that when you discovered you were pregnant you could go to the antenatal clinic. Now the antenatal services have been put out in the G.P. practices and there is a midwife in each of the practices. Part of that package is that you pay £150 upfront and then all your antenatal care is provided which includes G.P. visits. So previously you would have been going to antenatal at the hospital and then if you were poorly you would be going to the G.P. You might have had like a shared care arrangement. That ended up in some circumstances to be extremely expensive so they have rolled it into one package. So is it G.P. based unless you have a particularly high risk pregnancy at which point you would be under the consultant clinic at the hospital.

The Deputy of St. John :

Just to clear it from my mind in terms of ... because 1,001 Days you think of the zero to 2 clearly and antenatal is a very big part of the 1,001 Days. So how do those programmes work in terms of health working with you rather than in isolation? When they are reforming their services how does that work with the 1,001 Days?

Policy Director, Community and Constitutional Affairs:

There is no question of anybody working in isolation. The 1,001 Critical Days is the philosophy that we are adopting and the E.Y.C.P., Early Years and Childhood Partnership, now have a thematic called Starting Life Well. So part of that thematic is bringing everybody together. So 1,001 Critical Days is sort of on everybody's lips. Everybody understands now from the work that we have done the evidence and the scientific reasons behind it. So I would say everybody is working together for the benefit and we are focusing on the child and focusing on the baby and that is something that the U.N.I.C.E.F. (United Nations International Children's Emergency Fund) accreditation will really push us down as well because that is a World Health Organisation initiative. We know that we have got to focus on the first 1,001 Critical Days, particularly the implementation of breastfeeding and certainly all the local antenatal services are very much signed up to that.

The Deputy of St. John :

So just to clarify, the funding side of things for the £150 package, we would need to clarify that with Social Security in terms of low income families?

Policy Director, Community and Constitutional Affairs:

Social Security in terms of income support but certainly Health and Social Services. I think I am right in saying that it is the same across all G.P. practices. You know how there are certain different levels across certain ... I think it is the same for all antenatal.

The Deputy of St. John : Okay, thank you.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec : Okay, next one.

The Deputy of St. John :

Okay. Regarding domestic violence. The panel would like to ask about the domestic violence disclosure scheme which is known as Clare's Law. Could you firstly explain in this public forum exactly what it is and how it works in Jersey please?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Okay. So this is a scheme which became available in Jersey in 2015 and it is being accessed by a number of members of the public. There were 7 disclosures made under the scheme in 2016 but again we have got D.C.I. Fossey here who is best placed to describe exactly the working of the scheme if you wish to go into that level of detail.

The Deputy of St. John : I would appreciate that.

Detective Chief Inspector:

The scheme is advertised on the police website and that is a brochure that I brought with me that you download from the website so when the public ... it tells them exactly how they can go about accessing a disclosure. It is in 2 parts; basically they call it the right to know and the right to ask. The right to ask is the right of the individual if they are in, for example, an abusive relationship and they want to find out more about their partner then that is the right to ask and the document sets out quite clearly how you would do that and how you would come to the police station and how you go through that process. The right to know is the part where ourselves and partners, generally through either M.A.R.A.C., which is the Multi Agency Risk Assessment Conference, so that is where we take high risk victims of domestic abuse and put safety packages in place around them as partners. So either through M.A.R.A.C. or through J.M.A.P.P.A. (Jersey Multi-Agency Public Protection Arrangement) which is the management of the offenders. Then agencies, if they are in possession of that information and they feel it would be beneficial for an individual who is in that relationship to know in order that they can enhance their own safety and that of their children then they will make the decision to approach them and disclose the information, always done through the police, and there is a number of safeguards. We have to go through a process. The information, for example, has to be relevant, sufficiently serious, current and creditable and we would disclose on the basis of prevention of future crimes against ...

The Deputy of St. John :  

A type of like a data protection principle, is it not, so it is to make sure that you are using it for the right reasons rather than ...

Detective Chief Inspector:

Yes, that is right. I would say the vast majority of the disclosures are through the M.A.R.A.C. and J.M.A.P.P.A. process as opposed to people coming and asking.

The Deputy of St. John :

Is that where it would be a more proactive use of the law rather than just waiting for somebody to come? It is being able to attend to the situation as soon as you are aware.

Detective Chief Inspector:

Absolutely. We do that through Children Safeguarding as well, for example in the M.A.S.H. (Multi- Agency Safeguarding Hub) when we become aware and we would do the same thing through M.A.S.H. as well.

The Deputy of St. John :

You state there were 7 disclosures in 2016.

The Minister for Home Affairs: 2015.

The Deputy of St. John :  2015, sorry.

Detective Chief Inspector: I thought that was 2016.

The Minister for Home Affairs: I do apologise, sorry.

The Deputy of St. John :

Were you aware how that compares to the U.K. in terms of comparison?

Detective Chief Inspector: No.

The Deputy of St. John :  No. Okay.

Detective Chief Inspector:

No, I would ... just in terms of population size I would imagine it is fairly comparable I would think but I would need to see if I could get that information from U.K. sources.

The Deputy of St. John :

Okay. Do you feel the public are sufficiently aware of their ability to use this legislation and whether just having it on a police website maybe is sufficient and whether it could be more broadly knowledgeable for the public?

Detective Chief Inspector:

Yes. I mean I think we could always do more to promote it. Again with the S.A.R.C., it is another opportunity there and to make that sort of information available from there to the public and we would advertise it through the S.A.R.C. as well. Yes, every now and again we will get approached either through an F.O.I. (Freedom of Information) about Clare's Law or there will be some article. The J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post) approach us quite often and we do promote it through that way. But certainly, as a police force, we are very alive to it and will make proactive disclosures where we can. The problem is, of course, domestic abuse is under reported so that is another way for people to do it themselves.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

In relation to your question about the take up and use of this scheme compared to England and Wales, information that I have here is that during the introductory period, which is a 14-month period, in England and Wales in 2014 there were 100 people given disclosures under that scheme. So if you compare the size of that population to our own the disclosure rates are probably comparable I would imagine.

The Deputy of St. John :

Okay. Just to get an idea roughly how it is working. In terms of moving forward and integrating awareness of these types of things across various different areas, so, for example, when dealing with 1,001 Day care packages and those types of things, is it becoming a kind of part and parcel of that approach? Who is going to answer it? So I am moving across.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

There is considerable effort, I think, to work across departments and that is why the Early Years Childhood Partnership brings in representatives from different departments. So there is a general awareness and collaboration in areas because obviously, particularly in domestic violence and abuse, that has a significant impact on the child in their first years.

Policy Director, Community and Constitutional Affairs:

The 1,001 Critical Days agenda refers to the toxic trio, which is substance, mental health and also domestic violence. So all the antenatal practitioners will be trained and through the safeguarding board as well to be aware that there is much more likely to be a higher incidence of domestic violence when women are vulnerable. We have got very good networks in place here and systems in place to support and deal with that.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Next one. So last year a joint Mental Health and Criminal Justice Forum was established. What has resulted from that and what has been produced?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

So there is a standing agenda for this forum who continue to meet. You are aware that, again, it is a cross-departmental forum and group. The standing agenda is updates and actions around the services, progress towards mental health strategy projects, maximise learning, best practice examples, presentation and case studies. So a number of projects have been progressed so far, including the place of safety issue and particularly work looking at an interim solution because, as you know and I am sure you will remember, Health and Social Services anticipate that there will be such a facility in the new hospital when it is built but we are pushing for an interim solution in that time. Court diversion is also another project and I am sure Dr. Miles can assist with further information and mental health in-reach to the prison because obviously the mental health of prisoners is a very important part of the prison service.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

You specifically mentioned a place of safety and interim solutions being looked at. At what specific point is that now and when does it look like that interim solution will be found?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I think it is still ongoing. Conversations are happening with Jersey Property Holdings particularly and review of available space in the States property portfolio.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Can I push you for a guess at when something might be found or is it just a case of you will find something when you find something?

Policy Director, Community and Constitutional Affairs:

There are sort of 2 elements at play here as well. There is a bricks and mortar solution but there is also another solution and part of the work that the Mental Health Criminal Justice Forum have been doing is analysing the figures around the place of safety and what a place of safety really is and how it is being used in Jersey. We have taken the approach of doing kind of a deep dive into people who were certainly arrested by ... not arrested by the police but brought into the police as a place of safety. The research that we did showed that only 12 out of those 40 people who were brought in were in need of a place of safety because they were suffering from a bona fide mental illness. So there are many sort of broader trends at play here. The Article of the Mental Health Law is specifically about people who are suffering from a mental illness but what seems to be the case is the remainder of those people were in crisis, either because they had had too much to drink or they were in some form of distress. So what the group are doing are looking at initiatives from elsewhere to try and deal with that group of people that avoids them being brought in to either the police station or the health environment. So what we are looking at is a form of street triage and certainly I know the Minister for Home Affairs has talked about that before. So the concept of that is placing mental health workers into the police station so that when the police officers get the call for a concern for welfare they can take that mental health practitioner with them. Then the mental health practitioner, who is the expert in these things, is able then to make an assessment which allows the police officer to pull away. That kind of model is being used in very many places in the U.K. and that is something that we are looking to replicate a Jersey solution for here. One of the things we will be doing is developing a proof of concept around that but also engaging with the voluntary and community sector. So we have got the Shelter Trust who are already providing a valuable service through the Drunk and Incapable Unit because other voluntary sector agencies ... you think of people like the street pastors that have been working on a Friday and a Saturday night, engaging with those sorts of agencies to see how we can all work together to improve the circumstances for people who are in distress but not mentally ill.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

It sounds like a lot is going on with this. Is this ultimately going to give the police more work to do and that would be a good thing because it means they will be reaching more people and helping them or is it ultimately going to lead to them doing less on this because it would be delegated to other organisations?

[11:30]

Policy Director, Community and Constitutional Affairs:

I think the point is that it is people with the expertise dealing with people in distress. All frontline police officers have received the series 6 training, which is a bespoke mental health initial contact training, and that is going to be rolled out to all the other criminal justice practitioners this year including the prison. So there is an awful lot of training that has gone on but police officers are police officers. They are not mental health practitioners although a large amount of their job is dealing with people who are in distress or have mental health issues.

The Deputy of St. John :  

It is probably wrong to ask the question of yourselves, but with looking at bringing in expertise in terms of the mental health, as you see it at the moment or what you have analysed so far, do we have sufficient resource to support further mental health at the moment? It is probably the wrong department to ask but because we are discussing this I mean clearly it is an area ...

Policy Director, Community and Constitutional Affairs:

Coming out of the mental health strategy the 3 particular projects, the place of safety, the court diversion and the mental health prison in-reach were funded as part of the strategy so the answer is, yes, there are funds available. But what is tricky for Jersey is making sure that we get the right model. We cannot just pick up what they do in the U.K. and kind of drop it on here because we have got different facilities. We have a different demographic.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It is certainly an area where we have tried, as Home Affairs, to work with Health and Social Services during my term of office because it is something that touches in both areas because obviously sometimes we end up with people in the criminal justice system who have mental health issues and some of those end up in prison also. But I think, as Dr. Miles has said, there is a lot of work to be done on this but there is good progress being made and I think the forum are receiving recommendations in relation to the in-reach service of a prison at the end of this month and so we should see progress being made there. But just a couple of weeks ago we visited the Healthcare Department and team up at the prison and have no doubt that they are very dedicated in doing their best work with the people they do work with and do so to the best of their ability.

The Deputy of St. John :

It seems like a positive step forward. I think my concern is although there may be the resources within the mental health strategy as such, in terms of the ability to employ the skilled mental health are there people that may even want to come to Jersey or do not want to come to Jersey and in those terms the people, the human side of it, the people that deal with the issues rather than maybe the electronic equipment or the buildings or the capital resources, because there is a specialised expertise and therefore are there enough skills in the Island and do we have the money to futureproof this type of scheme?

Policy Director, Community and Constitutional Affairs:

The Health and Social Service Department, I do not know whether they are just coming to the end, but they have done a very big recruitment campaign and that was recruiting for practitioners for C.A.M.H.S. (Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service) mental health practitioners. I think they have done a big campaign across ... social workers as well were part of that big recruitment.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

For example, the healthcare manager at the prison has a mental health background and experience working in the N.H.S. (National Health Service) as well as here in Jersey so we have a good level of expertise and skills available currently. As I say we aim to improve. Hopefully with the success of Jersey Talking Therapies and community-based services like that we should hope to see a reduction in the level of acute need, one would hope.

The Deputy of St. John : But you never know. Okay.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec : Next one.

The Deputy of St. John :

The possibility of the introduction of a point system with regards to motor offences continues to rumble on. Has that progressed at all since we last met?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It is not so much something that we deal with. It is a matter for the Department for Infrastructure who I believe are taking the lead on that piece of work. Road safety is really something that they have and we have an enforcement interest.

The Deputy of St. John :

Okay. In terms of particularly enforcement interests, there has been a campaign, particularly on mobile phone use by the police. The mobile phone usage when driving is quite a popular target at present but are any changes likely in the enforcement of penalties or offences for this? Are there any plans to change what is currently there in the legislation in terms of enforcement?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Again, the penalty points system is something for D.C.I. but I would certainly support that change and move. Sentencing policy sits with others as well but you will see from the current campaign that the police are conducting that they do take it very seriously as a crime. I think there is an increasing level of understanding that causing yourself to be distracted when driving by using a mobile phone is very dangerous and can risk people's lives. So the police are taking it very seriously.

The Deputy of St. John :

Can I ask then, your view in terms of ... because obviously you have got the political responsibility when it comes to the police side of things, so in terms of policy and the things that you see happening and the pressures on your department in terms of resources, the way that the enforcement of the legislation, particularly with regards to motoring offences, we have seen recently in the media about somebody going to the Parish Hall so many times for the same thing ... in terms of holding these people to account for breaking the legislation do you think it is sufficient or do you think there is more that could be done in terms of working with the police and the Centeniers of Parishes in terms of dealing with it probably better or holding people to account more so that people are aware that it is just not acceptable?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Well, raising awareness is a really important part of that and I think that is something that has been done quite successfully in my opinion. Working with the Honorary Police is something that is an ongoing part of life and I believe that there are good relationships currently between the 2 groups. The Attorney General has recently given new guidelines to the Comité des Chefs in order to assist Centeniers with defining policies such as that. So that would be something that would have come from his office.

The Deputy of St. John :

Thank you. It is just to understand the police and the concerns around that because it appears that there is a lot of awareness campaigns and things like that but if the law is not being enforced as maybe strong as it could be people, maybe, think that they can get away with multiple offences of the same thing and ...

Chief Officer:

I do not have the statistics in front of me from the police's campaign but they made a very concerted effort on this over the last week or so and presumably at the end of that we will get some statistics about how many people were given words of advice, how many people were stopped, how many people were referred to Parish Hall Inquiry or for prosecution and it looks from what I have seen reported in the press, like the magistrate seems perfectly prepared to enforce the law as well, judging from recent press coverage. I do not know if Alison has anything to add.

Detective Chief Inspector:

No. I know within an hour, I think, of the campaign launching they had stopped 6 people and they would be reported for that. Again, it is about the Attorney General's guidelines; we have very strong guidelines in the area of domestic abuse for example. So the guidelines for the Centeniers are domestic abuse will not get dealt with at Parish Hall . It is very much about going to court so it is an area for the Attorney General in terms of that in order to progress on.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

There would be an awareness and a logging if there was a serial offender person so a person may appear in more than one Parish but there would be a central collection point of that data so it would not go unnoticed now if a lot more than one offence is put down.

The Deputy of St. John :

A lot of that data, just because we have not got the Attorney General in front of us, but I am assuming a lot of the data that the police or the Centeniers would accumulate would be passed to the Attorney General to determine new guidelines as it goes down.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Have there been any prosecutions enforcing the law on smoking in cars with children since that has been introduced?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Okay. So that is the first instance legislative responsibility of the Minister for Health but obviously from an enforcement perspective we have an interest and there still have not been any prosecutions to date.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Is that because people were caught but there was no evidence or nobody has been caught?

The Minister for Home Affairs:  

That is not something that I would have that level of information. I am not sure if D.C.I. Fossey has.

Detective Chief Inspector:

Yes. I think probably in the first instance officers would approach it in an educational perspective and again it would be the question of if someone was to be repeatedly caught then the prosecution side but I think on most occasions it has been words of advice and then people do not come to attention again otherwise we do have clear records of who has been given words of advice and we now recommend it to prosecution, but I think education is the main thrust of what we want to do ...

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Would it be, therefore, fair to say that even though there have been no prosecutions arising from this law, it being law, and, therefore, giving the authorities the right to have those words would you say that it has been worth it on that basis?

Detective Chief Inspector:

Yes, absolutely because you are in a much stronger position, are you not, than to be stopping somebody for a start point whereas you cannot stop the vehicle if the law is not there to allow you to do it for that purpose so, absolutely?

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Next one. Okay. At the last hearing we discussed the Probation Department and where it was best placed and I think Deputy Hilton had asked the question on this and you mentioned that you were hoping to have something by the first quarter based on your investigations on this subject. So how it that progressing?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Well, I think we have shared with you the report that was compiled looking at different jurisdictions and the makeup of their services in relation to probation and prisons. I am just trying to find the right place in my file. So you recall seeing that ... you have received that report, have you not?

Deputy S.Y. Mézec : Have we? Yes, we have.

The Minister for Home Affairs:  

Yes. So I mean that is a very helpful report and it lays out that we are rather unusual in terms of putting a lack of democratic influence on the Probation Service. So now we need to make some progress as to offering opinions and working with others to see how we might be able to progress in this area.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

So is this something that is on your agenda to look at and potentially make changes if you conclude that changes are necessary?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes. It is something that is worthy of consideration and we are still in the early phases having received that report and taken a little time to digest it and make the comparisons but it is an interesting area of looking at the democratic responsibility and how we may differ in our approach to other jurisdictions.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Do you have any anticipation of when you might be at a stage to comment further on whether you may do a piece of work on this or not?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Well, following our conversations with the chairman of the Probation Board we have been asked to progress our work as quickly as we can so we shall endeavour to move forward quickly. We will keep you up to date obviously.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Thank you. Next question then.

The Deputy of St. John :

I have got a question on the Jersey Police Authority and I thought it was probably an appropriate time to ask questions about this particular body; it has been in for a little while now. So we would just like to understand ... I mean it was established under Article 4 of the States of Jersey Police Force Law and we understand it is an independent body but just to understand how it is working since it has been established and how you think it is working from a political compared to an implementation of policy point of view.

[11:45]

The Minister for Home Affairs:

We recently strengthened our meetings because we do meet with the J.P.A. (Jersey Police Authority) on a regular basis. You will be aware that their introduction has created a sort of tripartite with the police force, the Minister and the J.P.A. So rather than meeting separately with the J.P.A. and then with the Chief Officer of Police it has been decided that it would be helpful for us all to meet together which is what we have started to do and I think that has been a helpful step forward. We have good relationships and have found the J.P.A. to be very useful and an interested body. They have taken their role very seriously and particularly when we were debating the M.T.F.P. (Medium Term Financial Plan) and the work leading up to the States debate their role was very helpful indeed.

The Deputy of St. John :

You talk about their role and we can establish that under the particular Article 4 of the law but do they have a specific terms of reference as such which is accessible to the ordinary public or other Members in terms of holding them to account as an independent body?

Chief Officer:  

My understanding is that they have focused in their formative years on just fulfilling their functions under the law. So you have seen that they have been assiduous in their role in police planning and in producing a policing plan every year regularly and on time and they have done that very well and I think the policing plans have been well received and have become more easily understood by the public, more accessible with clearer priorities. I think they have also been very focused around their statutory responsibilities on annual reporting as well and the production of the annual report on policing and effectiveness on crime. Again, I think the work they have done has made that reporting more accessible for the public and more easily understood because they have been able to bring their own views as kind of lay members to their understanding the information around police planning and around annual reporting. I think that has really shown benefits in the quality of that work and the work that has been done to produce both the reports and the annual plan. What I have observed is they have also focused a lot of their time and attention on things like regular performance reporting in the interim and so I know that they meet regularly with the senior team at the police and they go through all of the performance statistics again which is part of their role. Again, I think you have seen enhancements of what they have delivered there and now the police publish for all Islanders to see their regularly performance data against their objectives. So I think the Police Authority have done very well in setting up that system of planning interim reporting on performance and then annual reporting against the plan and they have really focused on that core statutory role and from what I observe they seem to have delivered real enhancements there.

The Deputy of St. John :  

In terms of their responsibilities you talked about planning and performance and interims and data collecting and all those sort of things which is laudable, but in terms of their responsibilities for, say, input on policy matters do they have a say? How does that work? I mean do they report to the Minister or do they report to the States as an independent body? I mean how does that specifically work?

Chief Officer:

In my experience it depends on the matter in hand. As the Minister said, on some matters it is clearly the responsibility of the authority or of the Minister or of the Chief of Police. Other matters just involve 2 of those responsibilities and some things end up involving all 3. So the Medium Term Financial Plan is a great example of something that involves all 3. The Minister both is the person in law ultimately responsible for the police and as the Member of a cast of Ministers responsible for making spending proposals to the Assembly. But then also the Jersey Police Authority, as the independent body responsible for the deployment of those resources and for having an efficient and effective police force. Then of course the responsibility of the Chief of Police in ... both as an accounting officer for the police and as the independent head of the policing operations. Whereas other things will be discussed perhaps just between 2 of those bodies but I think that, as the Minister said, what we have learnt in the first years of the Jersey Police Authority's existence is that because everything is interconnected while the law may say that something just involves these 2 parties or just one party, in reality policing is a complete whole joined-up activity and it has an operational, a political and a resource planning dimension to just about everything. So that is why we have moved to a system now where the Chief of Police and the Minister and the chair of the Authority meet together on a regular basis just to make sure that everyone is equally sighted on all policing matters. So even though you might have something like an amendment to the piece of police law that might really be more a matter for policy and the Minister, that might have implications. Planning, we might have implications for the efficiency of the force and so we now try and discuss all those matters together, so everyone is signed to it.

The Deputy of St. John :

In understanding that there is trying to work collaboratively and work together on all these different matters, does it not call into question therefore the independence of the Authority if you are constantly working together as such? Also, why bother having them?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I think there is a level of challenge in that relationship because that is why we have our individual positions and roles and responsibilities. I think that level of challenge is indisputable. For example, as we have referred to, the M.T.F.P. was a point of mutual interest and so we did at one point attend an extraordinary general meeting of the Police Authority to discuss the M.T.F.P. and how we were approaching it. So I think there is certainly ... this is not a cosy relationship, it is one where there is the challenge that you would expect from an independent body.

The Deputy of St. John :

I am not suggesting that there is necessarily a cosy relationship. The perception when you are explaining things, in terms of when you talk about an independent authority, there are no terms of reference. There are no guidelines around their actual responsibilities as such. You are talking about there are some things that overlap that we can work with them. There are some things that are not that can create some grey areas. So in terms of understanding exactly their independence and their ability there is nothing there in terms of just the lay person being able to understand their role.

Chief Officer:

I mean they are independent. It is not for us to set those things forward but that is certainly feedback that we can take back to the Chair and Deputy Chair of the Authority. When we next meet with them we will raise those points and see whether they wish to do more to put that kind of information into the public domain.

The Deputy of St. John :

Just in terms of the ... when you compare to independent authorities in terms of police structures in the U.K., for example, you have got various different independent authorities, where you have got commissioners and all those types of things, that somehow the input on particular policy, some have input on expenditure, all those types of things, so there are different ones. You do not want lots of different ones in Jersey. All I am saying is what is their responsibility, otherwise it ends up just one big group meeting together and talking?

Chief Officer:

I think their responsibility is pretty clear under the law so the law sets their responsibility and it is not their job as an authority to either do less or more than what the law requires them to do. But I think it is very useful feedback that your view that they could do more to communicate with the public to make available more information about their role and their remit and what they are doing. We will certainly take that back to the Authority and see whether that is something that they would like to address. Presumably that might be something to mention to the States Members that form part of the authority as well. As you know, 2 of the members are from the States Assembly, so fellow States Members, and it is something that we can perhaps mention to those States Members as well.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

The next one. If the Island were to abolish the de minimis waiver limit on imported goods what do you think the impact would be?

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:

That is over to me, so first of all ... we are going to bring the Head of Customs and Immigration in and before we start I would like to apologise, Chairman, to the public for arriving late, but obviously you were aware and you kept my questions to the end, so thank you for that. I need to ask you now, Deputy , to repeat the question please.

Chief Officer:

Just before you do that, I sense that for the record the recorders might like you just to state your name and position and then they have got you on record.

Head of Customs and Immigration:

I am David Nurse, and I am the head of the Customs and Immigration Service here in Jersey.

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:

And I will do the same, shall I? So Constable Deirdre Mezbourian , Assistant Minister for Home Affairs.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Okay, thank you. So the question is: if the Island were to abolish the de minimis waiver limit on imported goods what do you think the impact would be?

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:

I think operationally that comes under the remit of the head of the Jersey Customs and Immigration Service but, from my perspective and the Minister's perspective, we would be concerned about that because we would know administratively that it would impact a great deal on the resources of J.C.I.S. (Jersey Customs and Immigration Service). Of course, as Deputy Vallois knows, the de minimis is collected on behalf of the Treasury Department and we do not get any form of payment. I make this point, we do not get any form of payment from the Treasury Department for the collection of G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax) and so therefore they do not help towards the cost of funding J.C.I.S. offices. It's a bit of a bone of contention with me. I am not sure that we would ever get the Treasury to agree to make any payment towards the work that J.C.I.S. does on their behalf but it is a little bit like the Connétable s collecting the Island-wide rate on behalf of the Treasury Department. There is no payment for that. It is just a job that is done.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Just to be clear on that point then, you say it is a bone of contention for you.

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs: For me, yes.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

You would like some assistance for that?

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:

Well, I just think that the ... I do not think, I know, that the Jersey Customs and Immigration Service over the years has been very heavily targeted in budget cuts, in funding cuts, and I am very aware of that from my time on Scrutiny. It has always been something that has caused me a little bit of concern because of the important role that the service undertakes in protecting our borders. But part of their role under the law - not sure which specific law it is, but I am sure you can be told - part of their role is to collect G.S.T. and so that takes the resources of the service away from other areas of their responsibilities, such as border control.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Okay, thank you. Operationally then, can you elaborate a bit more on what the impact of that would be then?

Head of Customs and Immigration:

Okay, it is probably worth starting off by saying that to get rid of the de minimis completely, as the laws stand at the moment with the valuation of imported goods, would be extremely difficult. Laws for the valuation of imported goods include any freight charges, postal charges, et cetera, in how you value goods. If you remove de minimis completely the value of a postcard coming in would be the value of the stamp. If there was no de minimis there would be G.S.T. liable on the value of the stamp, if you can imagine that. So right at the beginning what I would say is that to abolish de minimis completely, with the way that the laws stand at the moment with valuation, would be challenging, would be the best way of saying that. The de minimis was around before G.S.T. came in. It was done on excise goods.

[12:00]

As the Assistant Minister has mentioned, we do collect approximately 80 per cent of the States revenue, which is £60-odd million a year, but most of it is on excise duties. It is a smaller amount on import G.S.T. because the Taxes Office administer domestic G.S.T. As far as the de minimis is concerned, as I am sure you are aware, it stands at £12. It is an amount of duty, it is not done on the value. So as far as G.S.T. is concerned if items imported are purely liable for G.S.T., with G.S.T. at the moment at 5 per cent, the value of the goods is £240 that comes in for that payment necessarily of G.S.T. When G.S.T. was at 3 per cent the value was £400.

The Deputy of St. John :

So the higher the G.S.T. the lower the ...

Head of Customs and Immigration:

Automatically it goes down because it is done on an amount of duty not on the value of the goods. When G.S.T. was introduced the way of clearing goods, importing goods was looked at and it was realised that to have every single item that is imported liable to G.S.T. would be a considerable administrative burden, as I have mentioned about the personal side of things. So it was decided at the time by the then Minister for Treasury and Resources, then Senator Le Sueur , to include a de minimis for G.S.T. as well as the existing de minimis for excise goods. The de minimis is an administrative thing. It is not a legal right but then Senator Le Sueur decided to take it to the States Assembly for the States Assembly to agree on the amount of de minimis. There was consultation

with various businesses, some wanted, as you can expect, a high de minimis, some wanted a low de minimis. But the £12 was considered to be the most appropriate at the time. As I say, the de minimis is an administrative thing. It is not a legal right. My service, if they consider anybody is abusing the de minimis by ordering goods over the internet or whatever, and splitting those orders so as to bring them in below de minimis, we will charge them the G.S.T. on all the items, and this is something that we do look at and we do control.

The Deputy of St. John :

How do you determine that though?

Head of Customs and Immigration:

It is a case of all the goods are pushed through our system CAESAR, which I am sure you know about. I have got an officer who is not only looking at that but is looking at the system to see if many other prohibitions and this kind of thing, but one of the things that he or she at the time was looking for is for people abusing any kind of duty or tax coming in and abusing de minimis as well. Regarding the de minimis, if I could give you some idea of the quantity of goods that we are talking about here, when I say these figures these are purely manifested goods, they are not goods that are coming in unmanifested through the post. For example, if somebody orders something from Amazon it is a general rule of thumb, if it is a small item it will come in unmanifested through the post. If it is a larger item it will come in manifested. Now the postal union have got a date, I think it is 2022, and they said that all goods need to be manifested, whether they are coming in by the post or in any other way. But last year our system processed 1.3 million consignments that came into the Island. Of those 1.3 million consignments just over 86,000 required a declaration for people to do it. To give you some idea of what a change in the de minimis would mean, in 2010 when G.S.T. stood at 3 per cent, and therefore de minimis was the equivalent of £400, there were 51,000 items that were detained. In 2011 when G.S.T. went up that figure increased to 80,000. There has been a review that was done by the Treasury, which came from, I believe, one of the Scrutiny Panel's recommendations back a few years ago, 2013, 2014, I think it was. That review has not been published yet because it is still being done. But there were a number of things that came up from that review, some of which was, yes, there is not a level playing field for local businesses compared to the internet but the other side of it was that if the de minimis was dropped it would not necessarily mean that it would increase local businesses' sales. As far as other figures are concerned, again these are ... they go back a couple of years but they are still relevant, we consider them still to be relevant. At a de minimis level of £9 there would be an additional 16,500 items detained but if you dropped the de minimis level to £3, for example, it would be just under another 100,000 items detained. Obviously that would cause a problem, not only for my service but it would also cause a problem for the courier companies, the freight companies, purely for storage for these items waiting for them to be ...

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs: And Jersey Post.

Head of Customs and Immigration: Jersey Post, exactly.

The Deputy of St. John :

Do you have a rough idea of how much more resource you would need to cope with these type of additional items should the de minimis be reduced?

Head of Customs and Immigration:

At the moment I only have a relatively small number of officers that are dedicated to revenue collection. Most of my Customs and Immigration officers are multifunctional, they do all the activities. The number who are in our revenue and goods control, answering the phones to members of the public, businesses, and that kind of thing; I've only got four officers doing that. So they are coping with it, as I say, 80,000, if it is doubled. Would it mean doubling? We have worked with eGovernment very recently to improve CAESAR to make it more user friendly, for businesses and the public, to try and reduce the number of telephone enquiries that we get from members of the public. But clearing goods through a system, people occasionally do need assistance and the more items that are detained the more people will need assistance on this. To answer your question, Deputy : I could not put an actual number on it but it would probably need a considerable addition of resources with possibly limited revenue itself. As I say, the revenue that was estimated for the £6, if de minimis was dropped down to £6, £360 and revenue is increased. So the revenue is not huge in real terms.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Just generally speaking, and feel free to keep away from anything that you think is more of a Treasury side of things. Looking at the current arrangement and potential constraints on operations, is there anything from your perspective that you think would enable you to manage this a bit easier or improve how you do things?

Head of Customs and Immigration:

As far as managing it a bit easier the manifested goods is relatively easy to administer because our computer system does it for us really. The difficulty is with the unmanifested goods, the postal traffic and this kind of thing, so as I say come 2022, 2021 or whatever it is, when all parcels, post and everything else, has to be manifested that will obviously ease things for us because the system will take the strain rather than my officers because they keep going to the post office every morning. They do not only check for G.S.T. obviously but they do check the parcels for G.S.T. every single morning at the post office.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec : Anything to add to that?

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:

It is not only a problem that we have over here. It is something that any country with G.S.T. or V.A.T. (Value Added Tax) is looking at this. What I understand is that the O.E. C.D . (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development) has a taskforce looking at this and I think they are hoping to introduce by about 2021 the situation where companies such as Amazon are able to collect the G.S.T./V.A.T. on behalf of the countries, I think, or the areas that the goods are going to be delivered to.

The Deputy of St. John :

There are some websites that already do that though.

Head of Customs and Immigration:

In actual fact, when G.S.T. was introduced because of the way that certain firms ... legally the title to goods is concerned, and the companies I am talking about here are the traditional catalogue-type companies, and this kind of thing. The actual owners of the goods are still catalogue companies until they are finally paid for by the importer whereas for Amazon you pay for it upfront and then it arrives. What this means for the catalogue companies was that we were able to ... well, the Taxes Office were able to register the catalogue companies as registered entities over here so they account for G.S.T. on their purchases and what that means is that the traditional method of buying items from the catalogue companies where people order X amount of trousers, shoes, whatever it is, decide what they want, try it on and then send it back, and only keep what they want, we were able to manage that through G.S.T. because for a private individual, once a private individual buys something that is imported it is liable to G.S.T. and only under very exceptional circumstances would they get that G.S.T. back if it was exported. But as I say for Amazon, where it is bought upfront they cannot do it.

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:

Can I just ask a question? It has just occurred to me, because I know that this Treasury report has been a long time in the making, as it were. Have we got any idea when it might be ... Treasury is not our department, any indicative dates?

Head of Customs and Immigration:

No, is the easy answer.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

We should have asked that question.

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:

Just so you can follow up and obviously we will as well.

The Deputy of St. John :

We will let you know if we find out an answer.

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:

Well you will let us know or we will let you know.

The Deputy of St. John :

If any of us get an answer at any time soon.

Head of Customs and Immigration:

As I say, we contributed to the report but it is not our report.

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs: It is not our report, no.

The Deputy of St. John :

So the Tell us Once project, we discussed it briefly at the last quarterly hearing. We understand it has fallen behind schedule slightly. Just following the appointment of your new superintendent registrar, is the work back on track?

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:

It is. The superintendent registrar, Advocate Claire Follain, took up her post on the 3rd of January, which was the first working day of this year, and she has spoken to the ... she has been in touch with the Parish Registrars. We have a meeting on the 22nd of this month to which all the Parish Registrars and Deputy Registrars have been invited and all of the Connétable s to meet the superintendent registrar so that everybody at the same time gets a full and thorough explanation of what Tell Us Once is meant to be achieving as part of the eGov project, that has never happened before. So it is a first to get everyone in the same room, so that everybody hears the same story and can ask questions.

[12:15]

Obviously the system itself was designed just to improve the customer experience for the registration of births and deaths. For instance Social Security, when a registrar was notified of a death Social Security would be advised, Income Tax Department would be advised so that the bereaved person would not have to go to all of the different areas within the state. So Tell Us Once sounds to be, in theory, something that should work well for the benefit of the public and it will work well when it is up and running. So I think in our next hearing I will be able to give you more information on whether any more Parishes have come on board because when we spoke last time there were only 6 that had signed up to it, as it were. To be honest, I think that is in the communication.

The Deputy of St. John : Right, okay.

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs: I can see that improving now.

The Deputy of St. John : There is progress?

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs: There is progress, yes.

The Deputy of St. John :

And with the communication we could see customer experience improved significantly.

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, absolutely. I think we all agree on that.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

The next question then. The fire chief and emergency planning officer roles were merged recently. How is the extra workload impacting on that service or those services?

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:

As we know, this week Operation Resilient Islands has been taking place. That has been managed by the emergency planning officer, Mark James, who is also the chief officer of the fire service. He provides technical expertise and specialist advice and professional guidance to the Emergencies Council and the Emergencies Planning Board in his role as E.P.O. (emergency planning officer).

These exercises take many months of planning with multiple organisations and agencies. It has gone from the feedback that the Minister and I received yesterday ... as members of the Emergencies Council the feedback we got yesterday was that it had gone extremely well. There are obviously areas that will be learned from it, areas for improvement and everything but that will be assessed when they debrief and review everything that has happened this week. In the meantime, of course, the fire service has been managing and it has been business as usual. That is because we have an extremely efficient and effective deputy chief officer of fire, in Paul Brown, who I know you have both met. For instance, the fire service this week ... certainly for most of the week, was very heavily involved in the search for the missing person at Devil's Hole. That has not been impacted upon by the fact that Mark James, as emergency planning officer, has been away from base and has been involved with the exercise that has been going on. Mark's well-versed in leading emergency planning. He is very highly qualified. He studied emergency planning in the United States and he has a Masters degree in crisis and disaster management. So I am satisfied, and the Minister is satisfied, that there is no impact upon him undertaking those 2 roles. Of course one of the reasons for it was (a) he is more than qualified to undertake the role and (b) it was a saving in the M.T.F.P. I think a saving of about £60,000. He also has now an assistant emergency planning officer who, as far as I am aware, there is the succession planning, so he is undertaking the day-to-day E.P.O. roles really but Mark, of course, has been very involved, as I say, in planning this exercise. Of course he oversees the training of his assistant. So in both areas he is very ably supported.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Do you have anything on that before the supplementary?

The Deputy of St. John : No.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Okay. We know there was a reduction of one post in fire prevention. Since that has happened do you think there has been any noticeable impact on the service and provision of that particular service?

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:

I would say not. Can I just double check on something? So just to confirm, having conferred, it is a planned reduction but it has not been fully implemented yet. So at the moment there has been ... I can honestly say that there has been no impact. But you would have to ask me again when it has gone through and we are able to make the assessment.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec : When do you anticipate ...

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:

We are confident that it is not going to but clearly we would need to assess.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec : Would want to confirm, yes.

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs: Yes, I think it is later this year.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec : How much later this year?

Chief Officer:

As you can imagine, this involves individuals, the people concerned, so if you allow me on this occasion I would be happy to send you the details of why I am not able just to commit to an absolute firm date on this, but it is perhaps not something to talk about individuals in a public forum.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec : Okay, fair enough.

The Deputy of St. John :

So if it is going to be happening later this year then it is probably best for a panel to ask next year in terms of the impact to give it time to see whether there has.

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs: Yes. So probably a legacy question.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec : Lastly.

The Deputy of St. John :

Other than everything else that we have discussed today, there are various other White Papers due this year, could you advise us what they are and when they are expected?

Chief Officer:

We have a number of mostly legislative projects which will be coming forward throughout the year, so we have talked already about the Sexual Offences Law, consultation and then lodging for consideration by the Assembly and we have talked also about hate crime, work where again we anticipate doing work and that is likely to result in law changes being lodged with the Assembly. So we have talked about those 2. You may recall that there was an update earlier in the year to the Prison Law and there is a piece of work underway to update the prison rules, which is a secondary legislation to support that, and we would hope to get that out for consideration by the Assembly as well during this year. So work into that is well under way. The panel might also remember that there is an amendment to the Police Law, which the panel has seen previously, which is nearing completion. It is just with the Law Officers' Department for human rights advice, and that should be ready to be lodged as well. Then you may also recall there is a piece of work going on to update the Armed Forces Law, the Armed Force Defences (Jersey) Law, which is to fill a gap in the legislative framework of the Island and that work will be forthcoming as well. There is also a piece of work around the Terrorism (Jersey) Law and implementation in Jersey of certain provisions from the U.K. Counterterrorism Act, which needs to be implemented. So that work will also be forthcoming as the year goes on. Then the piece of work that I am not sure whether we will see this year or not is the work to update the Police Complaints Law, which I think the Minister has mentioned in the Assembly that we have just started a project to update the Police Complaints Law that we are trying to bring forward as expeditiously as we can but it is quite a big piece of work and whether that gets through that state this year or whether that falls into next year I am not quite clear.

The Deputy of St. John :

Am I right in saying there is an amendment to the Marriage and Civil States Law coming through as well?

Chief Officer:

Yes. On the Chief Minister's side there will be amendments to that law to do with same sex marriage. And that is something that I expect the Chief Minister will probably be the person who will lodge and take it forward.

The Deputy of St. John :

Okay, but is the law not under the Home Affairs?

Chief Officer:

No. The superintendent registrar is under the Home Affairs Department but the law is part of the Chief Minister's responsibility for broader social policy; marriage, divorce comes under his responsibility.

From our perspective nothing else. Is there anything you wish to confess to us at this point? Or anything we should be aware of?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I think we have covered everything.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Okay, excellent. Thank you very much for your co-operation. It has been useful as always. Could I ask the media to leave before the officers and Ministers please? I shall call the meeting to an adjournment. Thanks very much.

[12:26]