Transcript - Quarterly Public Hearing with the Minister for Home Affairs - 25 October 2021

Children, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel

Quarterly Hearing

Witness: The Minister for Home Affairs

Monday, 25th October 2021

Panel:

Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier (Chair) Senator T.A. Vallois

Witnesses:

Deputy G.C. Guida of St. Lawrence , The Minister for Home Affairs Deputy L.B.E. Ash of St. Clement , Assistant Minister for Home Affairs Mr. R. Smith, Chief of Police

Ms. K. Briden, Acting Director General, Justice and Home Affairs

[10:32]

Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier (Chair):

Good morning and welcome to the quarterly hearing with the Minister for Home Affairs with the Children, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel. We will start with some introductions and if you could give your job title as well, that is helpful for people listening. I am Deputy Rob Ward and I chair the panel.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Senator Tracey Vallois, member of the panel.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Gregory Guida, Minister for Home Affairs.

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:

Deputy Lindsay Ash, Assistant Minister for Home Affairs.

Acting Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

Kate Briden, Acting Director General for Justice and Home Affairs.

Chief of Police:

Robin Smith, Chief of Police.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Excellent, thank you. We have got quite a few things to get through. Minister, police efficiencies we have mentioned in our previous hearing, but we thought we would ask some more questions. One of them talks about recurring spend reduction in non-staff of £247,000. Can you provide - and we did note that the chief of police was not available before, so that is why we are asking again - details of which contracts these reductions will relate to?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, if you do not mind, we will ask the officer who is in charge of this.

Deputy R.J. Ward : Yes, of course.

Chief of Police:

Thank you, and good morning once again. Of course the £247,000 is part of a wider efficiency, as indeed the panel has seen, of £836,000 for 2022; next year. Of that, elements of the non-staff budget, which is the much smaller budget that we deal with, and you will have probably heard people like me and indeed senior civil servants talking around about 85 per cent or so of the police budget is people, and therefore to look at other areas of our non-staff budget, which for 2021 is £3.1 million of around about a £26 million total, that is going on important people to deliver this service; both police officers and police staff. Making up that £247,000, it says contractual. Some of it is contractual I guess, but it is how we can properly look at those areas where we think we can make savings. For example - and I have a list of things to help the panel - meals and entertainment. When I say "meals and entertainment" it is meals as a result of staying on duty for extended periods of time, that sort of additional cost, stationery and postage, training, including conferences. Now, that figure contributes to the £247,000. The training and conferences is around £250,000 and you will appreciate - as indeed I read the transcript from your last Scrutiny Panel - the cost of training, and the Minister explained some of the costs that we have about people leaving the Island for important training. How we were able to make some of those training savings; there was an example only a couple of weeks ago. I mention these just to add context to the savings. We trained around 20 prospective detectives, but we trained them in the Island, so we brought the trainers to us. That was 2 trainers for 2 weeks, providing training to approximately 20 staff. Approximate figures are that that would cost around £80,000 to send those officers out of Island to other places in the U.K. (United Kingdom). The actual cost was £20,000. In recognition of the important letter that you received from the Association around training and the costs of those sorts of things, what COVID has done is allowed us to look at how we can better deliver, in other words, bringing training to us. We cannot currently do that for firearms officers for reasons that we understand, and you will understand that we are hopeful of getting a new range. I use that example just to provide a degree of context. There are some disbenefits to that. When officers leave the Island, they make good networks, they speak to other people from other forces and that is really, really useful. Moving on, things like, for example, technical support, which is a rather sort of wide title, but that is how we get technical support, particularly for our digital forensics teams. The panel will be aware that every time we make an arrest, particularly for a serious matter, when we need to we will recover half a dozen phones - and you have only got to look in your kitchen cupboards to see all those discarded phones that you have had previously, all of those laptops that you have never used but you have never thrown away - this is an expensive part of the business, but we believe we can make savings in our technical support areas. Also police doctors is another area where there is a contractual arrangement. We think we can make around about £15,000 savings. Police doctors are used for when we have got people in custody who receive medical attention, as indeed we had over the weekend. We have contractual arrangements with F.M.E.s (force medical examiners), as we call them. Then the final bit is around what we would call hired services and that includes, if you like, when we have agency staff for when we have got vacancies. Agency staff, there will be less need for agency staff. We had more agency staff while we were going through our staff review, which dominated most of this year, and allowed us to look at staff's current pay and terms and conditions. We arrived at that, we got to the end of that sort of about a month or 2 ago and we are still working that out, so we had to sort of pause before we could recruit because we did not know what the end was going to look like. Our confident expectation is we will need to use less agency staff in 2022, because we will be in a sounder position as to knowing what we need, but we could not recruit permanently, for reasons that I suspect the panel would understand. That gives you a flavour of how we get close to ... well, it may even exceed the £247,000. It is that contribution there.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

So there is quite a wide-ranging area of change. When you outsource contracts, for example, and they will be renegotiated, are you sticking to the States policy of not having anyone below a living wage that the States agreed to? Would there be pressure on those wages for contractors?

Chief of Police:

First of all, I think it is very important that I can justify to the Minister that I am efficient and effective. One area where I was unable to do that hitherto was because the force had not had a staff review, looking exclusively at police staff, sometimes called civilians or civilian staff, but I think a better description is police staff. It is my understanding that we have not had one of those before and not only to the Minister, but also to the Jersey Police Authority, who are there to ensure that I am running an efficient and effective force. That was a necessary thing to do, although as with all these things, they are quite painful experiences.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

So that review has been undertaken?

Chief of Police:

That review has been completed.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That is what is feeding into this. Just to give further context, so the review is undertaken and from that this £247,000 of possible efficiencies was identified, simply one of the reasons being as the outcome of that review?

Chief of Police:

There is a danger of conflating 2 things, so to keep the ...

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That is why I asked the question, yes.

Chief of Police:

Yes, it is a good question. So the savings that come out of the staff review were then paused and I will explain why. Just to answer your question, I have no intention of employing anyone in the States of Jersey Police below minimum wage. I think that the minimum wage is there for a purpose, so that is not my intention to do that. The staff review, as I have already referenced, this was done before any figures were brought to us of around 3 per cent efficiency savings. This predates that by probably even as much as a year, but it was an important thing to do, although it has been enormously disruptive to our staff, for reasons that you will understand, because we are looking at in excess of 100 staff and we are looking at terms and conditions, pay and all the rest of it. But we are no different to any other government department, who had what they call or the Government calls or other government departments call a target operating model. I did not see it as a target operating model necessarily and I thought it was easier for staff to understand that it was a staff review, so we knew what it was about, but it was purely for police staff. Now, for the benefit of the panel, I did not have to find money from the staff review to contribute to the 3 per cent, because 3 per cent came afterwards. However, the timing was a challenge, and in that we agreed on what the staff review was going to look like. Just as we were about to start to recruit to new posts, because the lion's share of the £836,000 saving is police staff posts, not to be confused with police officer posts, which I think the panel is clear on. We were looking to recruit more at that stage, but then we were advised of the request from Government to find 3 per cent, which was alluded ... well, in fact, not alluded it, it was the comment made in the letter from the Jersey Police Association to the panel, where it talked about the £800,000 saving. It is £836,000, as the panel will know, and the majority of that is through police staff. We were looking to recruit more at that stage, but then in many ways the timing was very bad and in many ways the timing was very good. The timing was bad because we had just gone through quite a difficult process, which impacted on all our staff, our police staff in particular, about to recruit some more posts and as we were about to, we then realised that we had to make a contribution to the 3 per cent. So we did not recruit as many as we wanted to and we put some of those posts ... we froze some of those posts. The reason why I say it was good and bad timing - and I will conclude on this bit - it was bad timing because we were about to say: "Right, we are ready. We have finished; we are recruiting." It was good timing in some ways that we had not already recruited and then would be in a very difficult position to try to find the 3 per cent. I will pause there for any further questions.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

It is a very interesting interaction of reviews and efficiencies coming along. I think that is the majority I wanted to ask you. You may have addressed this.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

You touched on the training and development as an example under the £247,000, but you keep mentioning the overall package, so does that include the £212,000 as well? Is it a myriad of different efficiencies between those particular areas rather than how it is set out in the Government Plan?

Chief of Police:

Yes. I mean, it is a contribution from various other parts, all of which are part of the non-staff budget. To provide reassurance to the panel, having read the helpful transcript from last time, as chief, I believe we can achieve the £836,000. I think COVID has helped us to think about other ways of doing things. There are a couple of important caveats to that, if you like. First, I have always been confident that if I do not think that I have got the budget to keep Islanders safe, then I can go to the Minister and indeed the D.G. (director general) and I am confident I can always do that. The second thing, and I think this is probably the more crucial point, is of course the £836,000 savings has no impact whatsoever on the agreed establishment for police officers of 215. We will continue to maintain the 215 number. It is the establishment. There is no cut in any budget. Indeed, during COVID, at the height of COVID of last year, I sent 10 staff to the U.K., even with the restrictions. I sent another 10 police a week last Sunday to Norfolk, where they receive their initial training. Looking at my latest figures, with the 10 in November, we should be upwards of around 214 police officers.

[10:45]

That number - and I know the association are aware of this - the 215 is set by the Minister and is monitored regularly and indeed will be monitored tomorrow by the Jersey Police Authority, so this has no impact on the number of police officers that we will recruit.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Sorry, can I just ask then, so the savings, which are recurring savings associated with the States of Jersey Police in the Government Plan, £377,212 and £247,000 are the £800,000 that you believe the letter from the Jersey Police Association is referring to?

Chief of Police: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

But you are saying that they are not to do with any officers, they are to do with the 3 different spends that you have detailed in terms of contracts, training, the outcome of the review and perhaps not employing to posts that we do call civilians, but I do not know ...

Chief of Police: Frozen posts, yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Further posts. It is not to do with police officers? You can reassure that it is not officers?

Chief of Police:

I am absolutely sure it has got nothing to do with this, maintaining the 215 establishment.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Can I just check then, so if you are removing civilian staff as such or changing the way that that works, does that mean that there will be different expectations of the police officers in terms of how they do their job, so instead of a civilian doing it, that little bit of work that they may have been doing will become the police officer's job?

Chief of Police:

If I may say so, Senator, that is a really good question, because you simply cannot take £836,000 out of a £26 million budget without there being some effect, otherwise, quite rightly, the Scrutiny Panel would be saying: "How have you managed with the £836,000 that you currently have?" There will be a knock-on effect and I think my team, who may be listening to this, and indeed other members sat around the room, there has to be an impact. Do I think that that impact will be felt by front line officers? Yes, I do think there will be a degree of impact, but I will monitor it closely. I do not believe that impact will be significant, and particularly around training; all the accredited training will still be delivered because I have to do it. For example, firearms officers must be maintained, and to use a phrase we use in policing, they must be "in ticket". In other words, they must have a valid training card, which would be scrutinised very carefully should there be a police shooting or an incident. So all the training that I have to give will be provided, but there will be an impact, and it is my job to monitor that over 2022.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Is there a certain point for you where that impact would come as such, in terms of the public making complaints, as an example? So if they are feeling they are not seeing their police officers as often as they feel they should be to keep safe and the response to complaints or issues from the public, will there be a certain trigger point at which you will say: "We cannot carry on doing this"?

Chief of Police:

I think there will be. I am not sure what that trigger point might be, but I think all of those, for want of a better phrase, proxy measures that you have described are those that I will be alive to in 2022. Police officers cannot deliver a service to Islanders without police support, without the background stuff being done. All that stuff that often gets lost and forgotten, they cannot operate, so suffice to say I will monitor that closely. Of course the Jersey Police Association, it does not represent police staff. You may be aware of that, it represents exclusively police officers, but it works hand in glove, because we are all one team, so this letter, quite rightly, is alerting you to that fact. But the final point is I will look at that carefully over the next year.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Can I just ask you then, there is a direct question we need to ask you, which is the Jersey Police Association do say that they cannot afford to make any more cuts without putting the safety and well-being of police officers at risk and therefore as a consequence members of the public. How do you respond to that? It is a really important point that was brought to the panel. This is a forum to raise that direct issue from everything you have said previously and we have got a context.

Chief of Police:

I enjoy my meetings with the Association once a month. We meet once a month and we talk in detail about issues affecting police officers in particular, not often around police staff. Now, I disagree with their statement, but I understand why they would make it. I would be giving a different answer if they had written to you saying: "The police chief has said we need to save some money and we are going to reduce the police officer establishment from 215 to 210" or to that effect. I would be providing you, Chair, with a different answer. The fact that I have insisted that we are going to strive to maintain the 215, that is the measure I use to keeping Islanders safe; the 215 police officer numbers. I understand why they make it. It is my judgment that we will keep Islanders safe.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Can I just ask - I will think really carefully how I ask this, because this is a subtle link - you undertook a review of the police and you say that is always difficult for any non ... can we call them civilian ...

Chief of Police:

I call them police staff, but you can call them ...

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Police staff, we will call them police staff. At the end of that review, it seemed to be a coincidence there was suddenly a 3 per cent efficiency saving and those posts that were agreed in that review were not undertaken. Can you see how that might cause discourse or a problem with perhaps morale or one might even say trust for the future when these efficiencies are coming through? It is unfortunate, to some extent, if you engage a workforce in a review and then suddenly at the end say: "No, there is this other factor that has been thrown in at the last minute." Is that a valid point that may have arisen in terms of your workforce?

Chief of Police:

I think it is a valid point to make, but it is entirely coincidental. As I have already said, it was a question of it was really bad timing or really good timing, depending upon your point of view. From an accountable officer point of view, if I had recruited the full establishment of my police staff, recognising that I had made a commitment to the Minister and to the Jersey Police Authority to maintaining the 215, I may be in a difficult position right now, because I would have very limited areas in which to find a 3 per cent saving. That would be a conversation I would then have to have with the authority and the Minister. Our police staff are one-third of our organisation and a crucially important one-third. I do not mean that in a remotely patronising way; we cannot operate without them. But in many ways, there are few other places for me to go, so it is entirely coincidental, the timing. The police staff review started at the beginning of this year and the 3 per cent request from Government was not known at that stage, so I can reassure you on that. The final point is no police

staff have been made redundant. We have more posts than people. We want to recruit a number of people that we still cannot recruit to on the ...

Senator T.A. Vallois: So this is vacancy posts?

Chief of Police:

These are all vacancy posts. Nobody lost their job as a result of this.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Can I just ask, in terms of the impact on the actual police officers from not being able to recruit to those vacant positions, I am sure with the police there are specialisms like there would be in other areas, whether that is in a hospital or whether that is in teaching. Is there a risk that that will have a knock-on effect and a detrimental impact on their ability to focus on that particular specialisms?

Chief of Police:

Yes. I think the danger could be that as a result of not having a police staff member to do a particular role, the temptation is to use a police officer and that could mean that I then take a police officer off the front line, so I am mindful of that and cautious of that. So far though this year, just to give a sense of context, I have recruited a head of business support and shared services, a criminal justice team leader and an analyst team leader. There are about 7 posts and I have also given offers to 4 additional posts, which includes financial intelligence, field intelligence and also a forensic investigator. What I am keen to explain to or show the panel is that we are not standing still. While we have identified these posts for the £836,000 as a contribution, which is a significant contribution, we are still recruiting. We are not pausing it.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Can I just ask then about the vacancies, just to go back? So there are vacancies that will not be filled. Do those vacancies stay in the background so that you could say to the Minister: "Look, I cannot do without this post anymore. You either sort this out or we are going to have to take people off the front line"? That would be a rather direct way of negotiating, but there you go. Do they stay in the background?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

We will come back, but I would like to bring this backwards a little bit. For the first time I expect in the history of Jersey, we have a budget that is in deficit because of COVID. It is not a mystery, but we find it very uncomfortable. The Governments are fine, France is doing it 8 per cent to 10 per cent, which is okay, Germany is doing 5 per cent, they are fine with it. We are not and it is very, very uncomfortable for us. At the same time, there are some very, very strong areas of course that we are trying to sort that. For the last couple of years we have worked on mental health. Now we have this project for the next year, the young people intensive support. We need to double our financial crime unit because of the money value date starting in 2022, so there are some very big areas of course that we cannot avoid at the same time as you have a deficit. The only way to deal with that is of course to shrink all the budgets. We have done it in different ways for the last 3 years and for 2022 basically every department has been asked or every Ministry has been asked for specific amounts: "Can you find £2 million in your Ministry?" This year it was different because they said: "We need an additional 3 per cent, so you take 3 per cent. We do not care how it is done" and that is what we proposed to all the services. I am very aware, like I mentioned last time, this is cutting it very, very close to the bone. We have just finished our tour of all the services and we do understand that they are as lean and efficient as they will ever be and it is a little bit close. The good thing, as far as we are concerned, is that we remain a reasonably small Ministry and to change it if there is a crisis, if there is a problem, is very, very small amounts, so we can turn around ambulance with £200,000; we can change the way they work with £200,000. We can turn around police with probably £400,000. If they come to us with an emergency, and it will be a tiny emergency compared to Health coming and saying: "We need £100 million tomorrow" so we are very attentive to that and we are ready to react.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That is what I think I meant regards the vacancies in the background, that they are responsible. One of the things to just ask, and it might link to that, there is talk of enhanced responsibilities for posts that remain to maintain a high level of service delivery. What does that phrase mean, "enhanced responsibility"? Is that just giving more work to the people left or is that sort of promoting the people to take on more responsibility that comes with an increase in pay accordingly, but it is less than employing a whole person, so to speak? It is a good phrase in there, but I think just for the panel to get some understanding of what means.

Chief of Police:

Is that a phrase in the Police Association ...

Deputy R.J. Ward :

No, it is in the Government Plan somewhere. I can look it up, but it is quite a weighty document.

Chief of Police:

I think it is both of those things, is it not? The language is interesting. It is all of those things. Again I go back to my earlier point, as part of our police staff review ... and I have used that word again. I ought to be cautious about conflating the 3 per cent with the police staff review and the fact that it is entirely coincidental, not unhelpfully, I might say. It will be all of those things, so some of our staff have received an increase in pay, some of our staff have seen a decrease in pay, all of which is, if you like, protected for 3 years, but that was as a result of going through everybody's position and what they did and of course roles have changed and whatever. Chair, I think it is both of those things and probably more. There is an inevitability that if we take money, either you stop doing the work or you have to find a different way of doing it and sometimes that might mean people have to work harder or differently.

Deputy R.J. Ward : Yes, it is on page 136.

Senator T.A. Vallois: Page 136 of the annexe.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Of the annexe, yes. That is the other thing, there is the annexe and there is the main document, and it talks about: "enhanced in other posts to maintain a high level of service delivery" so that is why we asked the question. Do you want to ...

Senator T.A. Vallois: Shall we move on?

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, we are going to move on.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Just very briefly on the safeguarding and vetting procedures, if that is okay. So of course there was a recent notification of an arrest of a serving police officer in Jersey. While it is not within the panel's remit to go into individual cases, and we would not, can you just please provide us with an outline of the current safeguarding and vetting procedure for officers recruited into the States of Jersey Police?

[11:00]

Chief of Police:

Yes, and thanks for the opportunity to explain to the panel, and also just to reinforce clearly I cannot talk about the matter that is currently under investigation. Last summer I invited some senior former police officers, who work for Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary as well as having their own

private consultancy, to come to the States of Jersey Police to conduct what is called a counter- corruption review. The reason for that is previous experience that has happened in forces that I have been with and that had been absent in the States of Jersey. Indeed, I believe a counter- corruption inspection has never been done in a formal way within the States of Jersey Police. That of course predated the tragedy associated with Sarah Everard and the questions around vetting. Because of COVID, they could not come before August of this year, and they completed their report beginning of September, so I now have that report. In that report, among a number of other things, wider issues around, how do you properly protect Islanders? How do you properly protect States of Jersey Police from counter-corruption and corruption? What I am not talking about is the rather sort of old-fashioned view of corrupt police officers meeting people in pubs and exchanging rolled up £50 notes. It is far more sophisticated than that, including corrupt officers who may be seeking to get access to police information and police data and all the rest of it. What is crucially important is that the officers that we recruit are properly vetted. I have a vetting team that looks at every officer. In fact I was reading one this morning to just check to see the extent that the vetting goes to, which includes not only checking to see if they are on the police national computer but also seeing if they have ever been arrested. For transferees, in particular, we now check every transferee, not only in terms of their former professional standards records but also counter-corruption as well; they are often 2 separate departments. While there may be officers that have not got any professional standards records, they could of course be under suspicion from a counter-corruption point of view and there may be covert activities or whatever to check on those things. Now, as a matter of course, and this indeed has been going on since December of last year, every transferee that comes in to States of Jersey Police, not only do we do a check with their former force around Professional Standards Department, we also ask for a counter-corruption check as well. There are a whole host of other elements to the vetting process, which includes checking on family members or through the police national computer and the like. I would suggest that the police services, vetting is very thorough and we have also discovered that we have around 15 people, they were vetted but their vetting criteria has lapsed as part of this review. When I say lapsed it could be because they are on

there are different levels of vetting, so if you get access to seeing a secret document, like for myself, you need a high level of vetting and then there is a standard level of vetting for every police officer and indeed for police staff as well.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Just briefly, you mentioned the Sarah Everard case and one of the outcomes there was the female police officers in the U.K. raising the issue of a macho culture. Do you believe or see that existing in the States of Jersey Police and, if so, how would you seek to tackle it?

Chief of Police:

Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary wrote a really well-informed, well-researched report, about a year ago now, about how police officers could use their position for sex advantage. That could include, for example, police officers speaking to vulnerable victims after an alleged offence and, therefore, striking up a relationship, for want of a better phrase. That is the report which I recommend to the panel; it is a very, very good and thorough report. I shared that with my senior team probably about 6 or 8 months ago with a view to saying: "What does that mean to the States of Jersey Police?" To answer your question specifically, Senator, I think any chief would say that if he thinks that this does not ever happen would be naive because that might suggest that I am not looking or I am not paying attention to it. As your police chief, as the Island's police chief, we have sent out recent messages - some of them not so recent - about what I expect in terms of standards of behaviour. This predates Sarah Everard but we have used other examples since. I think it is my job to remain vigilant and my job to explain the standards of professionalism that I expect. But if I just think back in the 30 years' service that I have been in policing, policing is a very different place to when I joined the police service. But that is not to say that I do not have to keep vigilant.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Do you think there is anything distinct about small island or small community police forces that can make it more difficult, not in terms of vetting but in terms of the links between everybody knows everybody and have a quiet word about this happened but it is okay, that subtle sort of influence because that must be very difficult to pick up, I am sure.? But do you think there is a difference in smaller police forces with regards that than a huge force like the Metropolitan Police, for example?

Chief of Police:

It is a very good question and it features in the introduction of the report that I received from these 2 former officers, who articulate something similar to that. It is one of the reasons why I invited them to do a review. We have all the constituent parts that, unless we keep a close eye on it, could allow corruption. I have no evidence of that currently, just to reassure you; I have no evidence. But the proposition or the discussion I had with these reviewers some time ago now is we live and operate in a small island. The vast majority of police, say, of our officers and our police staff were born in the Island, grown up in the Island, have stayed in the police service a long time in the Island. The other added piece of information is that we have huge financial services as well. It is a wealthy place with a lot of money where people know each other. You would expect me, and I am making no accusations whatsoever and indeed I have no evidence of any suggestion of it, is that adding all of those in the mix, it means that I need to have a review to reassure myself about what we are doing about it.

Deputy R.J. Ward : Yes, a good answer.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

The other uncertainty that the chief can elaborate upon is procedures. It is a fact that, like many other things that we do, there are some very, very specific procedures to make sure that this does not happen. The fact that several people will look at every case, and it will not be the same several people, you would need a nice organisation within the police to do anything untoward.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Do you think there is a need for enhanced support, perhaps the phrase is, say, for example, if somebody has an issue perhaps around drink or drug abuse or the issue of domestic violence where they are in the wrong place, they are entirely in the wrong place? But if they are in this enhanced position within our society it could be a very risky place for them to be, whereas if there was support within the force in terms of uncovering that and allowing people to realise that that is the wrong behaviour and confronting that - perhaps that is the wrong word, "confronting" - but uncovering that, do you think that would be something that is particularly beneficial? Again, we go back to the small police forces where friends might say that they are having a difficult time or something but do not worry about that.

Chief of Police:

The phrase or 2 that I have used before coming to Jersey and elsewhere and here is, as I said to all our new recruits that went to Norfolk for their training a week and a half ago, the point I said to them is they are all guardians of States of Jersey Police's reputation; that is something that we should cherish. One mistake or one error can damage that reputation. Of course, we do provide that and if we do not for example, we have recently given out well-being training to all our staff. We have recently reminded staff that if their circumstances and conditions change, particularly domestically, they should let us know. If they have got themselves and we ought to just put this into context because as what often happens is, is when we see a tragedy associated - as was with the Sarah Everard case - is pendulum swing and I want to contextualise where we are but not be complacent. This is not London but of course those concerns do exist. Whenever those domestic issues or whatever other issues, that makes, potentially, officers and police staff more corruptible because then there is a lever with which to seek information or whatever. That is why I have said a number of times, both within States of Jersey Police and indeed in the media, my staff have my trust and confidence. They do have my trust and confidence. But I am confident that my staff this weekend was one of our busiest weekends of the year, they did a fantastic job over this weekend and that is what I would expect, that is what Islanders would expect, but I think my staff and Islanders would expect that it is important that I reinforce standards of professionalism. If I think that there are issues that I need to deal with, I will do it.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Shall we move on? Thank you very much.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

You have spent some time on it and I think it is a very useful conversation, so thank you for that. In terms of youth justice, Minister, can you provide an update on the works around the youth justice programme that falls within your remit?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes. There are several aspects to this and it is getting difficult now for me to fill it in because they are mixed up with the intervention of C.Y.P.E.S. (Children, Young People, Education and Skills) and the permission around that, everybody takes little bits of them

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That is why I am asking you the question because we recognise that.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes. A very important one to us but it is too long term to do anything about is actual youth justice, the criminal justice updates and that has, again, just barely started. A much closer one is the one I mentioned, the young people intensive support and that was the small programme that was decided by C.Y.P.E.S. mostly. Yes, so we all met and discussed the issues of our young cohort of really prolific offenders. I have a fairly private awareness of that and I am really upset about that and I need to go and scratch the surface. Because the programmes like this are supposed to be preventative but the job of Home Affairs is to protect the rest of the population. I want to make sure that we can protect the population, whatever C.Y.P.E.S., the Social Services, Health does on the other side, so I am going to get more appointed visits.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Perhaps if I asked you about the key priorities in the youth justice work; that would sort of help with an answer.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

No, that would be more difficult for me, I apologise. I get bits of it coming to me, so one that we had recently is secure accommodation. We had a case very recently where almost by accident we discovered that the rules that governed prisoners did not work with young people in custody, so we sorted that particular case as an emergency, when of course it showed that we absolutely needed to rework the rules.

[11:15]

One thing that has just landed on my lap is the Secure Accommodation Law, and that is details on how you manage young people in custody and it is massively complex. This has started, that is something that we are going to try to do very, very quickly because it is extremely important that we have precise rules that at least match the ones in the prison that have been developed much better.

Chief of Police:

In terms of youth diversion and diversion away from crime, I briefed the Minister and the Assistant Minister maybe 6 weeks ago, maybe a couple of months ago to, if you like, explain my side of my concerns around repeated youth offending and the Island's ability to deal with repeat offending; particularly very difficult and challenging young people who, frankly, have had a really tough upbringing, and I mean that. It is often you do not hear police chiefs saying that, some of this is entirely predictable. But I have described the police service and indeed me with providing some of these young people with what I would describe as an exquisite criminal C.V. (curriculum vitae), which I really do not want to continue to do that. There have been a series of meetings - very, very good and I am excited about this - probably in more than any other way in terms of police and particularly going into 2022. The Attorney General chaired a meeting only a few weeks ago with all key partners, including director generals from C.Y.P.E.S., probation and myself and a number of others where we were looking at exploring diversionary activities for young people, particularly the really difficult young people who repeatedly reoffend and how we can better divert them away from crime. I am very confident that the right people are around the table and I am very confident that we all want the same outcome but that will mean change of law, change of policy and also a recognition that we have a very small cohort, and I am talking probably no more than around 10 young people who commit a disproportionate amount of crime. Currently we struggle as an Island to be able to provide them with the best way to not commit more crimes, to put it that way.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

We have asked the Minister for Children and Education about the intensive support programme as well and the key for us, as a panel, is to see where they all fit together. We talked a lot about OneGov but this is an example where I do not think OneGov is giving the clarity and who is responsible for what. Do you think that that intensive programme is focused on that cohort that you talked about because it does talk about: "Developing an integrated intensive support service for young people considered to be the most vulnerable at risk or risk to others."? Where does Home Affairs fit into that? Is it simply the law change in terms of when it goes wrong? Because we can see the work of C.Y.P.E.S. and the importance of schools and the importance of Children's Services and the importance of family wraparound and the complexity of what causes those behaviours in the long term.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

When we looked at this with the A.G. (Attorney General) that was the third meeting that we had had, it is usually beyond that forum but the first time that he was participating and he chaired it. He had provided us with legislation from several countries from the Commonwealth as examples of how you could, at the same time, ensure the safety of the rest of the Island but deal with the young offenders properly. Basically all the systems were about primarily custody, to take them away but not just put them in a cell and lock the key; you do something with them. You keep teaching them, you keep making them participate in normal life. Most of the solutions that we looked at were something like that. I was hoping, and I am still hoping, that we will see something like that here and that was my hope, is that the whole group, Health, Social Security, C.Y.P.E.S., ourselves would choose along those options. Probably reform them to make them more Jersey compatible but create legislation that would allow us to still have a custodial system but one that is much, much more favourable to the children. I have not seen that come back. What I saw come back was the intensive support and I have no idea what this tastes like. I am pretty sure that this does not come with legislation attached. I am sure it is very important and I am very, very happy to see it happen. The police are perfectly ready to deal with this, like they have done before. They have done a couple of operations that, frankly, were this, except started from the side of the police; intense support. Just support, intense support of the children that were causing trouble. The police are absolutely able and ready to participate but this is not legislative changes, this is not giving us more tools to deal with the actual offending and protect the rest of the population.

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:

I think the Minister is 100 per cent right. We do have to protect the rest of the population and I think it is very important to realise when we are talking about this, this cohort - and I will not go into great details obviously - but this is not a few kids going in and nicking sweets, this is coming down to some serious stuff where some people could be seriously hurt, other children could be seriously hurt. While I feel we have a duty of care to this cohort, you can see the next cohort coming up and we should be tackling that now. But we, as Home Affairs, have a big duty to the rest of society and to people's parents and people's children to get this sorted because otherwise there are a number of other children that are at risk as they wander around St. Helier .

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Can I just make a point here? I suppose we should look for what answers we want on the panel but I was waiting for someone to say that one of the things that came out of the youth justice review is the importance of treating young offenders as children first; they are children in the end. There might be behaviours and as somebody who has worked over 20 years with children and we have seen it too often, that it is predictable and it should not be predictable; we are not intervening effectively. Is that principle of treating offenders as children first still the key underlying policy?

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, it is the underlying policy but we also have to tackle the responsibility to normal members of the public as well and to make sure that

Deputy R.J. Ward :

What does that look like then when you are dealing with children?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Sorry, if we want a precise answer to that we should better ask the chief. But I would like to bring this back; treat the offenders as children first and not offenders is key to rehabilitation. That is extremely important. You try to not treat them as offenders, so I understand that 100 per cent. But it has to be understood that the role of Home Affairs is to protect the rest of the population. When you have teenagers stealing cars and crashing them for fun, physically crashing the car for fun, not because they were not paying attention, they are putting their lives in danger and they are putting other people's lives in danger. We must find a balance between protecting the population, the general population, 109,900 people who are not involved and trying to have good outcomes for the 10 who are endangering the other 100,000.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Do you think we have that balance now?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I think we do not have the tools for that balance. Right now we have an incarceration system, which is slightly dissuasive. The kids really do not like it but it is obviously not doing the whole job and that is what we want to change. We want to have a system that is still dissuasive but that is just like what we are doing in the prison. You must have heard a lot about the offender management system for the prison and it has already started, so it is something that is quite physical already. The prison becomes a process. It is not like that is your punishment, you are in for 2 years and

Deputy R.J. Ward :

If we go back to something that you said earlier. We are trying to break that cycle of providing the perfect criminal C.V. from the age of 12. Would you say that that is what we are trying to do here; that in the past that is, effectively, what we have done?

Chief of Police:

We are no different to any other community that I have worked in. To answer your first question by way of an illustration or actual action. Last week I had trainers in from the U.K., from Wales, to deliver training on A.C.E.s (Adverse Childhood Experiences), which I suspect, Chair, you will be very familiar  with and maybe as well, Senator, with your previous roles,  Adverse Childhood Experiences. All of my team, all of my officers will receive that training. Why are we doing that? So that we better understand what we are presented with. I would really welcome a wider-Island debate about that because, as the police chief, some may think that I want to arrest young people. There are 18,000 young people, as we know, in the Island. Where we struggle is dealing with a very, very difficult small group who cause a disproportionate amount of harm. Of course, not only are they victims of crime, their victims are also young people as well; that is the area that we particularly struggle in. When I have spoken to the Minister, the Assistant Minister and indeed the civil servants, is that is the area where we need to better divert young people away. There is one example of one young person who is now an adult, who throughout his criminal life, which is very, very young - in other words, he came to our notice at 14 - in that time he has had 22 probation orders and I think everybody agrees that they are a very difficult, challenging person. I think there is a wider discussion about how we deal particularly with the very, very challenging that the Assistant Minister ... because currently we struggle to deal with them as effectively as we could, I am sure.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That leads us nicely, so to speak, on to the questions with regard to the prison wing.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Well I was just going to follow that up in terms of ... before we move on to that particular area.

Deputy R.J. Ward : Sorry, please do.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Referring to the A.C.E.s training and knowing that some of these children and young people have come from difficult family backgrounds or have had those severe adverse issues or experiences in their life, sometimes taking them out of an environment, away from some of the people that egg them on, is probably the right phrase, and instead of putting them in a prison is that kind of how do we help them deal with whether it is trauma, whether it is those types of issues? Is that kind of where the programme is coming from?

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:

I think looking at it there is a whole body of work, and I think you are fully aware of it. The trouble is at the moment - and the police chief might want to come to this - they are being thrown into the

realms of youth officers, youth services, which is not really their job but they are having to pick the pieces up in perhaps other areas where we have failed over the years. That is why I say it is a whole body of work that needs to get together and I think we have started to do that. We have started to have integrated discussions with other areas to really sort this out right from the beginning. Other people have said this to me, you have probably got people out there now, 6 and 7, that you can see will be the next group coming up and we need to tackle it now before it gets to the 13, 14, 20 and then it becomes very, very difficult to stop, but I do not know how you feel about that.

Chief of Police:

Yes, we do have a challenging group; that is the group that I explained to you last time and thank you for your time on that. Where I am encouraged - and I think this is a premise of one of your earlier questions - is how do we, as an Island, as government and me as a police service, effectively collaborate together because none of us own the solution? What I am saying as the police chief is I do not want enforcement to be the solution because enforcement is not the solution. It is a regrettable end product in that, so that may come as a surprise to some listening to this but that is what I am saying as a police chief. I do not want to have to arrest them but arrest I do repeatedly. Where I am particularly encouraged is S.P.P.P. (Strategic Policy, Performance and Planning), as part of government, are co-ordinating this activity. I think that is a good thing. Paul Wylie, who is group director, he is overseeing a youth crime diversion strategy. In fact I got an email from him over the weekend. I think that that is the best place for it to be because it can co-ordinate, if you like, the government's collaboration.

[11:30]

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That will include some of the funding for schools where if you want to have early intervention units, which are not there because ... I suppose questions for inclusions for the Minister for Children and Education, I am sure we will come to that next time.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

We will move on to the prison wing and rehabilitation of offenders. The panel has heard recent reports in relation to a wing in the prison being required to close due to staffing issues. Would you be able to explain the issues that are occurring to require that wing to be closed?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes. We do not have a wing closed - that seemed to have been a miscommunication - what we had was a change of regime. A regime is basically what happens to a prisoner during the day, you serve breakfast, that is part of the regime, and then you can have a little walk and that is part of the regime, and then you have the regime of work. Because of the lack of officers, plus because we have vacancies but also simple things like maternity leave. I think we have got 4 prison officers on maternity leave. Because of a lack of officers what they did was to change the regime a little bit and withdraw one evening. I do not know if you have visited the prison but all the blocks have a central area, which is a communal area, you open it up and people can go out and play pool and stuff like that. They have closed that one day of the week because they did not have enough officers to supervise that. On the other hand, if you want to go to the gym, or if it is part of your regime, you can still go to the gym. If you need to go to the workshop or the garden, those are still open. In practice, it has changed the regime for only a very, very small handful of prisoners. In fact only one that they know about and they are supporting this one separately to make sure that the because he did not do any of the external activities, they are supporting him to make sure that he still has as normal a life as possible. But, again, it is just one day, if I am not mistaken, unless please, stop me if I get it wrong but it is just one day of open area that has been withdrawn because there are not enough officers to supervise it.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That means for one evening a week prisoners are in their cells, rather than having that time, does it?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes. Because, again, it does not affect anything that they do outside.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

How long do you envisage that continuing for?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Not very long; they are recruiting like mad. First of all, we hope that the officers that are on parental leave will come back but also just remind me how many officers they are recruiting?

Acting Director General of Home Affairs: It is 10 at the moment.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, and we had a fantastic response.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Parental leave has been known about and you would have known about this leave, why was that not planned for?

Acting Director General of Home Affairs:

It is standard arrangements for how much notice the parent needs to give, so we can apply them to an extent. Sometimes that notice is given at very short notice and it is usually backfilled, it has previously been backfilled using overtime. But it is usually the Prison Governor's plan around the

it is one day per wing per week that there is the restriction regime that the Minister has outlined. That helps offset the effect of an awful lot of overtime, running the prison on a slightly different regime in advance of the recruitment taking place and it helped to contribute

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Sorry to interrupt, could it be the case that that restrictive regime would not be necessary if more overtime was paid for?

Acting Director General of Home Affairs:

It could be but the level of overtime was unsustainable, it had caused a big financial pressure. But also, more importantly, it causes a huge pressure on staff from a welfare and a number of hours worked point of view.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. One of the elements to this is the fact that the cost of it, so therefore that cost is the reason for not having that for one day a week, as opposed to because officers are taking parental leave.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

No, not at all. Remember we are hiring 10 people, so they are posts open for 10 officers. As soon as we have those 10 officers, that is fine, so the budget is there and the money is there for 10 extra officers.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

If those 10 officers were already employed there would not have been this issue, is that what you are saying? It is a combination of those factors.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, right. There is turnaround, there is an actual turnaround. They have lost several staff in a surprise move in the last few months, so it is things that cannot completely be planned for. Again, it was not about the overtime, which would nicely fit into the budget of the incoming officers. It was mostly about morale because it is so you are asking a lot from people when you are asking them to come in a day and then another half day.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, of course. There are a number of conflated issues there, one was parental leave, the other one was the cost of overtime and one was the practicality of overtime for officers but you would have 10 vacant posts, which are not being paid for at the moment, which strikes me as that is the money for the overtime. The money for overtime issue is not there, it is

The Minister for Home Affairs:

The money is not the main issue, the main issue is that we have seen the existing staff and you just cannot overwork them, so it is probably

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay, but that is an important point to make because that is not the answer that we began with. We did talk about money.

Acting Director General of Home Affairs:

The recruitment for 10 is to allow for a pool. There are 2 prison officer vacancies and 2 likely vacancies when there is an internal promotion running at the moment - let me get it the right way round - from officer 1 to officer 2, we have a 2-grade prison officer system. There is a need to replace 4 immediately and then there will be a pool of up to 6. It is not 10 current prison officer vacancies, it is a smaller number and some vacancies in operations officers, which are the support functions, where the police chief was describing earlier, obviously critical to the running of the prison.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

How many actual officer vacancies have you got that is causing this? If they were employed you would not have this situation in having to limit restricted regimes?

Acting Director General of Home Affairs:

The current figures we have are the 2 vacancies in the prison officer grades in the residential wings. There are 8 vacancies in operations officers and there is about to be another 2 vacancies when 2 prison officer grades are internally promoted up to the higher prison officer grade.

Deputy R.J. Ward : Okay, I think.

Acting Director General of Home Affairs:

We can always write to clarify, if that helps. That is the information we have from the Prison Governor.

Senator T.A. Vallois: No, that is fine.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes. But I think that detail is really important for the panel because we get a generic picture, then you go there only to get a greater understanding and you get to this detail, which I think is the really important part because then we know what the solution is to the issue; that is why I asked the questions. Go on, sorry, I interrupted.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

No, I was not going to ask a follow up but

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. Can I just confirm then that prisoners have not had to move cells and so on because of this?

Acting Director General of Home Affairs: No.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

No, and it has not affected any of their programmes for rehabilitation in terms of their work programmes and the skilling-up of prisoners and so on.

Acting Director General of Home Affairs: No.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

What about education programmes for prisoners, has that been affected at all?

Acting Director General of Home Affairs:

Any commitment that prisoners have on the day that their wing is on a restricted regime will either be met or moved to a different day, so that any rehabilitation and education programmes are not affected.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. Just to confirm, do you think that is going to go on for another month, another 6 months, another year, another 2 weeks?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

They have got lots of candidates.

Acting Director General of Home Affairs:

Yes, I would expect it only to be a matter of another few months at the most but, again, we can double-check that. It does have a link with the prison target operating model, as we talked to you about the week before last when we talked about the Government Plans.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Can I just ask, in terms of the Prison Board of Visitors, what feedback or what consultation with them has been had about this change in regime and identifying any detrimental impacts it may have on prisoners?

Acting Director General of Home Affairs:

It is the Independent Prison Monitoring Board.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

That is the one, sorry, all the different names.

Acting Director General of Home Affairs:

Yes, the Prison Governor meets with them fairly regularly. She has established a good working relationship with them, as you would expect. They will have covered the change to regime in their regular meetings. The primary role of the I.P.M.B. (Independent Prison Monitoring Board) of course is to look out for the welfare of prisoners and represent their needs to prison administration and, ultimately, to the Minister. I am not yet aware of any feedback from the I.P.M.B. about the effect of this but I would expect Susie to be actively seeking any feedback. There are appropriate confidential boundaries there because it is important that prisoners can go directly to the I.P.M.B. and that we have made sure that that is maintained in the regime. But it is something we can take back to Susie and specifically ask her whether she has had any feedback yet. But so far the Minister and I are not aware of any, as far as I know.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Okay, thank you. Do you want to move on to

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I just wanted to ask a little about the target operating model that is going to be looked at again for the prison as a precursor of a saving of £315,000. It is interesting from the conversations earlier where there was coincidental savings; this is not coincidental, this is a planned saving from the beginning of the target operating model. Do you think that is the right way to approach a target operating model?

Acting Director General of Home Affairs:

I think we find ourselves in a different position with the prison than the police chief has outlined in relation to the staff review and the 3 per cent and his clear answer on them being coincidental but, nevertheless, not unhelpful to help him achieve that. We have seen in a number of target operating models across government that there has been an efficiency commitment that sets an aspiration for a target operating model, and that is what we see for the prison. Susie is confident that she can achieve that through the new target operating model. It will have to be refined as we go along because she is just designing and developing that model. We will be keeping the Minister very closely appraised of what that looks like and the likelihood of meeting the £315,000. It is possible we could exceed it, it is possible we will come in lower than that in terms of that specific commitment in the Government Plan. If we come in lower than that then clearly we will have to find a different way to deliver it across just Home Affairs.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

You used the word "aspirational" but is that a figure that is set?

Acting Director General of Home Affairs:

Yes, it is a figure that is set and we aspire to meet it by the target operating model but there is still some way to go in the design and development of that.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Is that figure the 3 per cent budget cut?

Acting Director General of Home Affairs:

Effectively, yes. It is what Susie has accepted is the prison's proportion of the J.H.A.'s (Justice and Home Affairs) 3 per cent in total for 2022.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Dare I say, have you not created a coincidence there between a budget cut and a staff review or target operating model? Does that not invert the stabilising effect on staff morale? You think, well, we are going into this review and at the end of it we are going to aspire to make £315,000 of cuts, which could be more, it could be less but we do not really know.

Acting Director General of Home Affairs:

Yes, it could be more, it could be less. We have created that coincidence, I think you are right in distinction with what the police chief was saying earlier. It is a different situation and we do, therefore, shine the light on that, that creation of coincidence; I do accept that. It can have a destabilising effect, any manager will know the issue of changed process can and will have that destabilising effect. But Susie has been very clear with the staff and the unions that she thinks that the efficiency can be made and, yes, to one an effective and efficient prison that is decent, safe and secure and appropriately run and obviously that was her primary commitment to the Minister and the Island. The staff are working very well with her on that so far in terms of opportunities that they can see to run things more effectively and efficiently, really focusing on reducing reoffending, as we have talked about already. The Minister talked about the effects

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I think there was a coincidence, is the fact that we changed the Governor and that the new Governor, like her predecessor had done, came with their own ideas of what the prison should be. The predecessor started working in the prison one way and we gave him quite a bit of freedom. I remember one of the first things that we did when we met was to show him the layout of the new wings that were going to be built and it was likely impossible, and Len and I said: "If you have any ideas yourself, let us know." The next meeting, only 2 or 3 weeks later, he had redrawn it. He had changed it completely and made it cheaper and much, much more efficient towards working for the management. With the new Governor I think we are having another one of those changes and I think we are welcoming it. It is not just find some efficiencies, rework the prison staff so that you find some efficiencies. She came in saying: "I would like this to be quite different" and we said: "Yes, fine. Organise it but find 3 per cent at the same time." The same as last time, it is at the same time: "You are free to reorganise this, to make the prison that you would like to see. We do not want it to cost more, we want it to cost less."

Deputy R.J. Ward :

To take on the devil's advocate role of Scrutiny, which we have to at times, would that mean it is restricted I have forgotten one second where I was, the restricted regimes could be a useful little trial for future budget cuts?

Acting Director General of Home Affairs: I do not think that is Susie's expectation.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

No. To be fair, I expect this to end up costing us much more money because

Deputy R.J. Ward :

It could not be an efficiency saving, it could be

The Minister for Home Affairs:

She will try this time and I am pretty sure she will achieve it. I sent her our end goal is to really change the way we treat offenders in the Island and that eventually will cost more, so it is the start of the process that will enlarge the prison rather than make it smaller.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Because I think this is really important, so we have got an efficiency saving of £315,000 identified; it could be more, it could be less, it could be that but in the long term it could be more.

The Minister for Home Affairs: That is the target for this year.

[11:45]

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Right. When will we see that target and the actual practicalities of that? Will that target operating model be finished?

Acting Director General of Home Affairs:

It should be designed and ready to be consulted on by the end of this year and then implemented early next year.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Early next year is the 1st because we

Acting Director General of Home Affairs:

I have not got the timetable for the target operating model in front of me, so perhaps if we could come back to you on that.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, that is quite important to have those dates, yes.

Acting Director General of Home Affairs:

I think I mentioned this last time, there will be a point where we would be very happy to come back to you and do a private briefing on the target operating models we have done before, and that will be the point at which we could explain this is exactly what the design will be that we will consult with staff on and this is the cost effect. We simply are not there yet. I am not hiding anything, we are just not there but at the point where we are we can come back to you and give you the specifics.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, I think that would be quite important

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Just to confirm, the £315,000 is going to come out of that budget on 1st January.

Acting Director General of Home Affairs: Yes.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

How do they manage the service without £315,000 without the completion of the T.O.M. (target operating model)?

Acting Director General of Home Affairs:

That will have to be managed in other ways. Some of the vacancy factor will help that because while there is recruitment going on at the moment, Susie will, just as we expect all our heads of service to, balance the expenditure on staff vacancies and other costs in order to make sure that that efficiency is delivered from the beginning of the year in a way I suppose, and then it will kick in in a more strategic long-term way once the target operating model is delivered.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

There are still a few areas of waste in the prison and we are keeping the pressure. We will make sure that we get rid of those.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

There are areas of waste in the prison, you say.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, well, perhaps we will come back to that.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Non-related to people. Everybody there does their work. It is not that but there are resources management and maintenance that is not done as well as it could be. So there are a few areas where it needs to be diverted, some of which we will have to spend money on to make them better.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Sorry, I say again, the vacancy at the moment is one of the causes of restricted regimes which, over the long term, I think could be very negative for the prison as a whole and its atmosphere, so I would be very concerned. I think we would, as a panel, if they are maintaining those vacancies because of the need for that saving when we do not have a target operating model as was mentioned. These things fit together and, therefore, that is why that is very important for us to see early on.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

There is no aim to keep anything like that and much to the contrary. There is a very, very clear goal from the Governor to open up to quite a different style of prison that does need more support.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

In terms of settled status, just a couple of questions on that. Any unforeseen issues from the settled status programme?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Nothing unforeseen. A couple of teething problems. Very, very small issues when the British borders were first meeting somebody settled in Jersey and trying to find where they were. All the databases have been exchanged and now it should be fine; so if you come into a British airport, they should know who you are at the point of entry. If you ask for a National Insurance card in the U.K. they should know that you are settled in Jersey, so that has been sorted.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

As you say, small issues in terms of numbers are a big issue for that person.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, but short as well in time so very, very quickly sorted. I think the one that was stopped at the border was stopped within hours as soon as they asked immigration in the U.K. to call immigration in Jersey.

Deputy R.J. Ward : So it is just a nuisance.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, a massive annoyance but not stopped for 3 weeks in Birmingham.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

It is that use of the word "should". When you are at a border, "should" is a bit of a worrying word.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, but when we looked at this, I insisted that we have a piece of paper because it was all going to be electronic and I said: "Well, I travel. I know how it is." If you expect that everything will happen by your passport being put on the reader, sometimes you wanted a bit more. You want a physical passport, not just for your face or something like that. We issued paper so people could have a piece of paper saying that they had settled status in Jersey.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, and I think that leads on to a question about the case workers who were assigned to the programme.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Have they now gone back to their ordinary duties?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

No, but very soon and this is something that we must look at; so they are due to go back. We have probably extremely few cases left but, typically, they are the cases that need a more hands-on approach so it is something we need to look at.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

The next thing was regarding the ambulance service and budget concern. The panel notes from the Government Plan here that you hold concerns about the funding of the ambulance service that came from the last review. You showed some concerns about that. Do you have any more thoughts on those concerns and can you elaborate on them?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It is what I said during the Government Plan Scrutiny. We have asked them for the same efficiencies as everybody else. They are positive that they can deliver them. I know that the services are stretched. I know that all of our services are again, as I said, very close to the bone so we are keeping a good eye on that and if there is any risk, we will change course.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Are there any concerns over recruitment or retention in the ambulance service at the moment? They have been through an enormous amount of pressure, have they not?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I do not think so at this point. Again, I will call it "tense" but they are stretched to their limit so I do not think that there are massive recruitment problems. Their problem is when they need to find somebody, it is quite a bit more difficult than the other services.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

This is because it is a relatively small service because it is a small island.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

It relies so much on experienced staff, I feel.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes. It is very difficult to find locally and we are fighting everybody else. Like some other jobs, everybody else in Europe wants the same so you really need to fight for them if they are available specialists.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Are there concerns on replacing experienced staff with those perhaps new to the role?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It takes a long time to go on the courses.

Deputy R.J. Ward : Yes, absolutely.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It is not only internal with someone with experience but you need to send them for courses. They need qualifications.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

So do you have any concerns around that area?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I think we are okay. We are looking at it very, very carefully. We have 3 teams available at any time although it would be nice to have a fourth team. It is very expensive as well.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

One of the risks with doing efficiencies or savings or costs, or whatever it is we call them these days, is people automatically go to something like training and that has been the history of the States.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

It has been the history and one I hope that we are overcoming but is there mandated training for ambulance staff that they have to do?

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes, absolutely.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

How are you ensuring that that money is not ...

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Well, it is a legal requirement so it is the same as with the police. They just have to do it. It is not something that you can cut.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Yes, just for reassurance more than anything else.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I am not too worried about that. I am more worried about morals because the training would be done on specific dates to save money and things like that. Doing those efficiencies is going to affect more people and it is going to make everybody's job tighter and more difficult, so I am sure that the services now are sufficient but you do not want to go any further than that.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I have a question which I am pleased to be able to ask because we have been asking about this for a long time. The panel notes that the Health Department is launching an electronic patient record system. How will this system link into the one that was chosen for the ambulance patient records? We have been asking about this I think since day one of this panel. So now you have an electronic patient system for Health, is the ambulance one going to fit into it?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

The very quick answer is yes but basically it is something that is much, much easier to do today than it was 20 years ago with these sorts of I.T. (information technology) systems. The director can give you the details on this.

Acting Director General of Home Affairs:

As the Minister said, the answer is yes and that has always been our intention all along. Ambulance are working very closely with the digital health team who have just announced their progression to taking on a contractor. We are looking to still deliver the ambulance version. We have always said that would be a tactical solution that will then interface with the broader Health and Community Services solution and that strategy remains sound. So we are just at the point of agreeing the procurement strategy for our ambulance version to get those mobile devices into the ambulances and replace the big forms that we have always talked about. I am hoping that we will get that over the line in the next couple of weeks and we will then be able to go out on a limited procurement basis because there really is a limited amount of suppliers that can provide this for us, and we have a good supplier waiting in the wings ready to go. We can deploy that early next year and that will bring that immediate improvement. The idea at the moment is that that information will go P.D.F. (portable document format) from our system into Health's current system and that that will then build into their new system and, in due course, the A.P.I.s (Application Programming Interfaces), as we broadly understand what that means, will link them together and then develop it. It could be that, in the future, the Health one completely replaces the ambulance one. In which case, we can turn off the contract with our supplier pretty easily and then adopt the Health and Community Services one into the vehicles.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I think that basically the issue was that we were in more of a hurry than they are. Not that they are not in a hurry but it is such a big job to do for Health that we just could not wait for that so our system will be live much, much earlier than theirs. We are just making sure that, one way or another, we can get the data across but we cannot wait for them to have a fully working system before we have ours.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, well, it is good to have a system that does not feed into anything. It could be seen as a complete waste of money, which is the concern.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Again, it is less likely nowadays.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, so you are confident that these systems will be in but it could supersede the system that you are going to pay for now so, hopefully, the hardware would not be wasted but just that contractor with the programme.

Acting Director General of Home Affairs: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

So are these plans to reintegrate the ambulance service back into Health rather than Home Affairs so that integration becomes simpler?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

We are not neatly going into the joint fire and ambulance station here and we have found while the original goal was to save money by conflating services together which was a bit ambitious ... you have heard about that one.

Chief of Police:

It was before my involvement I think.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Which is a very diplomatic answer.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Police, customs and immigration put together one director so there was a plan like this with ambulance and fire services which was found early enough to be a little bit ambitious, but there are many, many synergies of having them working together. First of all, there is a bit of an overlap so, right now, fire crews will have much less calls. They were talking about an order of 92 less calls than ambulance. They can cover some of the medical emergencies albeit the first time and I think they were there during the attempted murder. They provided resuscitation. Well, sorry, I will not go into detail because I am not sure but they provided health services to the victim of the attempted murder while police and ambulance arrived. So there is a small overlap and there is a massive overlap in some of the services, the maintenance of vehicles and spaces. If you can interchange and have an ambulance or a fire engine in the same space, again in the maintenance and training facilities, you do not need to have a toilet for fire services as well. So bringing them together and making them work together is a very, very good boost for savings but also for the collaboration as we are doing with the control centre. It might change with a different government in 6 months' time but I am pretty sure that they work very well together and will appreciate working for the same Ministry.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

In fairness, if I may, the ambulance and fire and police, if I may say so, have always worked fairly well together, whether they were in the one department or not.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

I just think it is important to say.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, I think we have raised that a few times.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It helps that the budget comes from a certain place and we have managed to keep that link to Health, which is extremely important so we have managed. There were a few bugs but it is working at this stage. Neither me nor Len were trying to empire build. We did not truly care about that so we do not care about having more services heaped into Home Affairs. We only accept it if we think that there is a synergy and that there is a good reason for this happening.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

In the final few minutes, it leads us nicely on to the final set of questions.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Yes. It is a timescale for appointing your permanent director general. Do you have one?

[12:00]

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes, there is a plan.

Senator T.A. Vallois: Wonderful.

The Minister for Home Affairs: There is a plan.

Deputy R.J. Ward : So what is it?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

So, yes, there is a plan to do it within the next 9 months. I am quite happy about that. As all nominations, it is completely independent from the Minister so I can only oversee it but I am quite happy because I think it will allow our interim director to prove that she is perfectly capable for the job and maybe get it.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That is a controversial statement.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

So I am quite happy about that and it also gives her time to reorganise the number 2 job, which probably needs to be done differently given the small size of the head of Home Affairs.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Can I ask why 9 months? We were aware that the former director general was leaving when? It was quite a while ago now, was it not?

Deputy R.J. Ward :

It was a little while ago I think.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

I think back in July or June.

Deputy R.J. Ward : In June, yes.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

So was there no process started?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Again, nothing to do with me. If you know more ...

Deputy R.J. Ward :

We have not said "congratulations" on your appointment, by the way, which was rude of us so we should say that. I think the real question that we are obviously alluding to is about money. It identifies a funding of £314,000 each year to fund the 2 posts. If the role is not going to be used for 9 months or filled, that funding ...

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Well, there is still work to do so people will have to do the work, so the money will be used. Unfortunately, there is no saving available there. That is not why it will have been pushed in a future direction. If anything, if I can hazard a guess, I think it has to do with the change of C.E.O. (chief executive officer). It is quite possible that the present C.E.O. does not want to take that particular decision and would rather the next C.E.O. do it.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

So the funding for that post will be spread between those who are acting into those posts.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

So there will not be any saving.

The Minister for Home Affairs: No, unfortunately.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

There will not any extra money when that post is re-employed.

The Minister for Home Affairs: No.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That will be changed back because that is always a concern as well.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

So you have the group director role and you are doing director general. Both posts.

Acting Director General of Home Affairs:

So I am now acting director general. The group director post is vacant but will stay in the establishment as my substantive post because we do not know what the outcome of the permanent recruitment will be. In the meantime, I have just been having discussions with the chief executive, with Justice and Home Affairs senior leadership team and with the Minister and the Assistant Minister on how to backfill my group director role. We are all agreed we must backfill it. I cannot possibly do both roles at the same time.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Well, I was going to say that.

Acting Director General of Home Affairs:

Yes, it would not be right to do that for anyone. Equally, I am of the view that I do not think the right answer for that backfill is exactly the same post and job description. I think the department probably needs something slightly different for the next 9 months, and we are just working on what that will be but I would be seeking to use the full group director salary to get the maximum benefit for the department. So I would expect the expenditure in next year's Government Plan to be exactly as it is in the plan from that rectification of the group director and the director general's salaries not being the base budget for the department as the historic position.

Senator T.A. Vallois: I think we are finished.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I think we are and that takes us up to the end of hearing unless there is anything you want to ask the panel. Is there anything else you want to ask or say? I just give that opportunity at the end.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Personally, I would like to thank you because I think you are doing your job extremely well.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

We do not take compliments well.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Especially during the Government Plan one because you raised a few things that I had not seen.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Well, that is good. That is what we try to do.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

So I have made notes and I investigated, had a look and, yes, that is exactly your job so I am quite grateful for that.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Well, thank you very much.

Senator T.A. Vallois: Thank you.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

With that, we will call the hearing to an end and we can say thank you to everybody involved today. Thank you very much.

[12:04]