Transcript - Quarterly Public Hearing with the Minister for Infrastructure - 13 April 2021

Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel

Quarterly Public Hearing Witness: The Minister for Infrastructure

Tuesday, 13th April 2021

Panel:

Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade (Chair) Connétable J.E. Le Maistre of Grouville (Vice-Chair) Connétable S.A. Le Sueur -Rennard of St. Saviour Deputy I. Gardiner of St. Helier

Deputy G.J. Truscott of St. Brelade

Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin

Witnesses:

Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour , The Minister for Infrastructure Dr. L. Magris, Head of Sustainability and Foresight

Mr. T. Dodd, Head of Transport, Highways and Infrastructure Mr. G. Forrest, Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards

Mr. T. Daniels, Director, Jersey Property Holdings

Ms. L. Phillips, Senior Policy Officer

Mr. R. Hayward, Senior Transport Planner

Ms. E. Littlechild, Group Director for Operations and Transport

[11:32]

Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade (Chair):

If I can welcome you this morning to the Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel for the quarterly hearing with the Minister for Infrastructure. I am going to introduce my panel and we will go around the table for voice identification purposes. I am the chairman, Constable Mike Jackson .

Connétable J.E. Le Maistre of Grouville (Vice-Chair): Constable John Le Maistre of Grouville .

Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin : Deputy Steve Luce , Deputy of St. Martin .

Deputy G.J. Truscott of St. Brelade

Deputy Graham Truscott of St. Brelade District 2.

Deputy I. Gardiner of St. Helier :

Deputy Inna Gardiner of St. Helier 3 and 4.

Connétable S.A. Le Sueur -Rennard of St. Saviour : Constable Sadie Le Sueur -Rennard of St. Saviour .

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

That is us. Over to you, Deputy , and welcome to you and your team. Could you just introduce yourself and perhaps your team would do the same with themselves for voice recognition purposes? Thank you.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Thank you, Chairman. It is Deputy Kevin Lewis , Minister for Infrastructure.

Director, Jersey Property Holdings:

Tim Daniels, Director of Jersey Property Holdings.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight:

It is Louise Magris, Head of Sustainability and Foresight, Government of Jersey.

Head of Transport, Highways and Infrastructure:

Tristan Dodd, Head of Transport, Highways and Infrastructure.

Senior Transport Planner:

Rob Hayward, Transport Planner in Infrastructure, Housing and Environment.

Group Director for Operations and Transport:

Ellen Littlechild, Group Director for Operations and Transport.

Senior Policy Officer:

Louisa Phillips, Senior Policy Officer in S.P.3 (Strategic Policy, Planning and Performance) for Sustainable Transport Policy.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think that completes the team. Thank you, Chairman.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Minister, I will go off into a subject which is, I think, close to most of our hearts in that the submissions from the Jersey Youth Parliament have written some climate change group questions. We have been forwarded these and would be grateful if you would respond. Are Jersey's paper bus tickets recyclable? Many Islanders get the bus each day and these tickets get thrown away and are rarely even looked at. Have you considered scrapping bus tickets as part of the waste strategy?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Thank you, Chairman. The good news is I will be meeting the Youth Assembly on Thursday. We are doing a guided tour of our facilities, so it will be interesting to hear their feedback on that. If I could hand over to Louise Magris, who is taking on waste.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight:

Thank you, Minister. I am not sure if this is more of an operational issue, to be completely frank, but certainly it might help you to know that the Youth Parliament, picking up climate change is one of their main subjects of discussion, which is really timely with the citizens' assembly on climate change. There will be an overlap for the recommendations from the citizens' assembly on climate change to go to the Youth Parliament and have those discussions about which recommendations are ... what the Youth Parliament think of those recommendations. So I know that does not quite answer the question about recyclable bus tickets, but it does show ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade : It does not answer it at all.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight:

No, I am sorry. I was just going to make the point that there were those overlaps, but I can see that Tris has an answer for me on recyclable bus tickets, because I am afraid that one is not for me.

Head of Transport, Highways and Infrastructure:

I think it is something that we can definitely look at within the rapid transport studies. We have got a study which is on M.a.a.S. (Mobility as a Service), which was really about digitally enabling people to make journeys using different modes of transport using electronic tickets. At the moment the tickets can be collected in wastepaper bins and taken for recycling, but the tickets are required both for revenue protection, because it is an easy way of checking someone has paid the fare, and also for the new transfer tickets so that they can take them on to another bus to demonstrate that they have paid the first fare. So there is still a requirement at the moment, but I think in the future we can look at that.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Given that pass-holders do not get a ticket or they do not appear to, it does not seem to be overly consistent in terms of a receipt for your travel. Is it not the same?

Head of Transport, Highways and Infrastructure:

No, all concessionary passes, they all get issued with tickets, so part of that is creating a record of the journey, which we use to help plan the transport and part of that is revenue protection to make sure that people have paid by whatever means, even if it is a concessionary fare.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I am not sure - dare I say it - if that is true in practice. I say that as an occasional bus user. When I place a certain card which people of a certain age have, I do not get a ticket.

Head of Transport, Highways and Infrastructure:

I will have to double-check on that for you. You might be more knowledgeable than me on that, I am afraid, Constable, but I will double-check, but that is my general understanding in the round.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I just wonder if a pass-holder puts the card on the machine whether that still might be recorded, but of course may not issue a ticket. That is what I am wondering.

Head of Transport, Highways and Infrastructure:

It would be recorded. Now, my understanding was that a ticket would be issued because it is an easy way of checking that journey has been recorded when the inspectors get on the bus, but I would have to confirm that with the operator, but in the round, my understanding is we tend to provide tickets for all journeys.

Having said that, I have to say that I do not really want a ticket, but as the Youth Parliament have said: is it really necessary? But it may be a little bit of a gap in the process. Moving on to petrol and diesel vehicles, has a target date been agreed on when Islanders will no longer be able to buy petrol or diesel vehicles? Do you envisage any legislation to that end, Minister?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Do you want to handle that, Louise?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight:

Thank you, Minister. Going back to the point that I was making before about the citizens' assembly and the overlap with the Youth Assembly, we would expect that when the citizens' assembly come up with recommendations for a date for carbon neutrality, that will be helping to set recommendations around things like banning petrol and diesel engines, because of course that will be part of our carbon neutrality objectives and a really important policy tool to get us to neutrality at whatever date is agreed, 2030 or perhaps different. So although the Youth Assembly have asked if the Minister has any views yet, I think the situation is that the Minister would be waiting for recommendations to come out of the citizens' assembly but then, as I said before, there is an overlap between the work of the citizens' assembly and their recommendations and that of the Youth Parliament. So I imagine that the Youth Parliament may well have a vibrant discussion around the recommendations of the citizens' assembly, whether they agree or not, and then all of that will go into the decision-making process for the Minister for Infrastructure and of course the Council of Ministers in bringing forward the carbon neutral roadmap. So the answer I think to the question is that not at the moment, but that is part of the policy development and community discussion that we are having at the moment.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Chairman, obviously we know the U.K. (United Kingdom) is hoping to transfer over to full electric and petrol and diesel vehicles will no longer be available, but I have always made it clear that we would be, either at the same time as the U.K., if not slightly ahead of the U.K. by maybe a matter of months, just so that Jersey does not become a dumping ground for vehicles that cannot be sold in the U.K.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Are you aware whether new electric vehicle sales have increased over the last 12 months? Do you have current figures?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I do not have the figures for that, but I believe that is the case. Do you have anything on that, Louise?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight:

Minister, I do not have exact figures to hand. Maybe other colleagues on the call might have. We are certainly seeing a small uptake in electric vehicles and we do know that people are moving that way. The market is equalising and we are seeing second-hand electric vehicles being a lot more affordable, which means that people are making their choices accordingly. Again, advanced electrification of the car fleet is potentially something that would come out of citizens' assembly as well, but I think it is not just about decarbonisation of course, banning petrol and diesel engines, it is about air quality and then of course the entire sustainable transport wraparound, which is about encouraging people to make fewer car journeys.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Minister, could I just ask, it is clear from the evidence that electric vehicles are now at an affordable price where people consider them. The range they have is at the point where people consider them, but one factor that I am concerned about is the number of charging points available to the public. What is your view on that?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, a very good point, Deputy . It is a bit of a chicken and egg, and obviously the technology is still emerging, but the problem in the U.K. obviously is the range, which does not apply to us - obviously we are 9 by 5 - so electrification of cars in Jersey would be a fantastic solution. Obviously we are working with our partners at the J.E.C. (Jersey Electric Company). We have 2 charging points in all of our multi-storeys and I believe we now have 10 up at Pier Road, but obviously if somebody has their own home, then it can be plugged into the 13-amp socket. Problems arise of course if you do not have parking in your driveway or nowhere near your house, so on-street charging is something that we have to pursue for the future, whether that be in town or in the suburbs, we are not quite sure. That is still work in progress.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Do you consider that an expense you should bear, Minister, on-street charging, or is that something you consider the J.E.C. should be funding?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The J.E.C. obviously would make money on that, but we do not have the funds, as they do with the European Union, to sponsor electrification of vehicles, but obviously we do encourage it by way of the free parking in our multi-storey carparks. If the team would like to come in on that.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight:

Minister, I am happy to. I think that is an absolutely valid point in terms of advanced electrification, the opportunity for people to be able to charge their cars if they do not have off-street parking themselves, which of course plenty of people do not. The infrastructure to support that is an issue. The evidence to the citizens' assembly from J.E.C., which is online, so I would encourage ... I can certainly point everybody at it, suggests that J.E.C. would look to extend and expand their charging network to facilitate the uptake of electric vehicles if that was a route that the Island went down in order for ambitious decarbonisation.

[11:45]

But obviously the on-Island grid has been able to support that and there will be an expense. The point that I was coming to was Deputy Luce 's question about where would the funding for all of this potentially come from. I think it is worth noting that one of the questions that the carbon neutral roadmap will consider - and the citizens' assembly as well - is how we fund what will undoubtedly be costs leading to decarbonisation, particularly if it is an accelerated timescale. The Assembly have received evidence from the States economist in terms of the ways one might do that sort of fundraising - borrowing, increased taxation, polluter pays, those sorts of charges - so there is plenty for them to deliberate and provide recommendations in line with ambition. Naturally, States Members will make the final decision on those funding queries, but if we are to go down this route, then it is inevitable that funding will have to be found and potentially joint funding models with something like on-street charging, but those are the sorts of issues that do have to be considered.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I note, Minister, that some charging points were put in. I am aware of several in St. Brelade , at St. Aubin and Les Quennevais. Who funded those? Was it your department or the J.E.C.?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I believe they were privately funded.

Head of Transport, Highways and Infrastructure:

The charging points with the public carparks have all been funded by the J.E.C. We have got a programme that we work alongside them with, so we are happy to support new charging points wherever they can be provided. As Louise was saying, one of the issues is the actual capacity of the supply. They draw a lot of charge and you need the cabling to the carpark to be able to support that. That is one of the limiting factors at the moment, the number that can be provided in each carpark.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Is there a problem? Because people would like parity in the future. At the moment, it is not possible. It takes 10 minutes to fill the car up with fuel, but to charge your car up, usually it is several hours. There are fast-charging units available, but as Tristan and Louise have just pointed out, the infrastructure for that from the J.E.C. is quite considerable, so that is something. It is in the long- term plan. It would need to come together.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

If I may just take you back to my question regarding electric vehicle numbers, that was stimulated by the fact that I think probably a year ago there was considerable surprise about how few new electric vehicles had been registered. I was just keen to understand whether that trend has changed and at what rate, if you like. Do you have any knowledge of that?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As I say, as Louise has just pointed out, there is the cascade effect now, that whenever something is new, they are very expensive, but the second-hand market is kicking in now, so the price is coming down. Tristan, would you like to ...

Head of Transport, Highways and Infrastructure:

Just to note that Rob Hayward has put a graph into the chat, so you can see an up-to-date representation of electric vehicle registrations and the forecast in Jersey.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I cannot see it yet, but if we can see that eventually, that would be helpful. I am going to just go on to slightly different things. I have got that now, thank you. There we are, that answers the question, does it not, quite clearly? That is the trend we want to see. That is helpful, thanks. The town of Penzance, Minister, managed to completely remove plastic from their town. Do you think it would be feasible to do that for Jersey? We are aware that Jersey was awarded plastic-free status in December 2018. Can you advise how long the status is valid for and if indeed it still remains in place? That is probably a Louise question, I think, is it not?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is indeed. Obviously thanks to Deputy Gardiner for bringing the proposition regarding plastic bags. If I hand over to Louise.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight:

Thank you. So your 2 questions there, could we be completely plastic-free, which I think is an ambition that would certainly require a lot more than we are at the moment. That would be for the whole of the town in the way that I think you said Taunton had. I think the plastic-free status for Jersey remains intact for as long as we keep fulfilling our obligations and our pledges. That requires us to do several things, of which I cannot quite remember at the moment, but I can certainly dig them out for you. As long as we are continuing to deliver that, then we continue to have our plastic-free status. I see that we have not gone backwards, I know that for sure, so I believe we are still in the plastic-free status. I know that there are other initiatives coming forward. Some of them were a little bit held up because of COVID. Obviously the use of disposable and single-use items has gone up during the pandemic, for obvious reasons, and things like refillable water stations have had to be rethought to see if there any health implications to using those. I know that the precautionary principle kicked in for a short period in order to not forward some of those projects, but I believe that they are now being relooked at in light of the better health situation now. I would like to think that we can continue to make strong progress, as this is very important for the Island.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I would like to ask about the status of recommendations. This panel had a report in 2019, Reducing Use of Plastics in Jersey, some of the recommendations going back that should be completed at the end of 2019 or beginning of 2020. Do you have a recommendation tracker on how the recommendations were performed following that report?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight:

We do have a recommendations tracker and I do recall giving an update. I think it might be with a recent Scrutiny Panel with the Minister for the Environment, where we talked about the recommendations and gave an update. I do not have those to hand in the long list, but I do recall exactly what you are talking about. If it would be helpful, we can update that and return it to you after this hearing. Would that be acceptable?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I think we would be really grateful if you can go back to our Scrutiny report, Reducing Use of Plastics in Jersey, and to have an update about performance on the recommendations.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight: Yes, thank you.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I am going to move on to vehicle testing. During the previous quarterly hearing, you informed us that you were awaiting feedback from workshops, which had been undertaken to gain a better understanding of garages' capability to undertake the inspections. We understand that workshops were undertaken - that is discussion workshops - across 3 groups for large, medium and smaller garages. Could you outline, Minister, the feedback received and the outcomes in that regard?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, certainly. The consultation with the industry is complete. Gordon Forrest and his team down at D.V.S. (Driver and Vehicle Standards) have done a lot of work on that, so if I hand this over to Gordon.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Yes, as the Minister has just said, the consultation with the industry is being completed now. The actual options appraisal review is very nearly completed and we are looking to present the preferred option to the Minister this coming Friday, at the end of this week. Ahead of presenting to the Minister, I do not think I can go into too much detail about what the preferred option may be, but what I can say is there were significant differing viewpoints from within the industry during the survey and the engagement. That is about all I can say at the moment really.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

It clearly is the result of feedback from workshops. The smaller garages will be interested to know their current position, considering the initial survey results demonstrated that smaller garages had felt in the main they were not in an adequate position to undertake the inspections. I mean, in fairness to them, where their businesses could be quite easily wiped out overnight, there has to be some indication in which direction you may be going.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I think with the differing viewpoints that we have had from within the industry, it is absolutely clear that the smaller garages would feel extremely disadvantaged if larger ones were to undertake the P.T.I. (periodic technical inspections) and they could not, for whatever reason, whether that is a reason of not having sufficient land or finance or the ability to carry them out, so that would be heavily weighted within the evaluation process. Now, we are just competing the evaluation process at the moment and there will be a preferred option for the Minister, but what I can assure the panel is that anything that may disadvantage smaller garages has very much been taken into account within the evaluation process.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Has one of your options been perhaps to bring in an independent testing facility, completely independent of the local market, if you like? Would that be a fair way forward to consider the smaller options in the Island?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

That is very much one of the options, but that would fall into if the preferred option were, for example, Government to build a test centre and it to be franchised out to a third party to undertake the P.T.I.s. Then that would be open to local industry to tender for it and an independent from outside the Island.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Do you think an independent testing station would be fairer, something not linked to an operational service station, if you like? Would that not be the fairer solution?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I think the indications from the work that has been undertaken and carried out would strongly go in that direction, yes.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thank you. It is the panel's understanding that a public consultation was due to be carried out in February. Could you update us regarding that progress and perhaps outline what it has entailed in its outcomes?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Yes. From the public point of view, I think really it is more an informative exercise with the public rather than a consultation, because the actual process is so detailed and there is so much to be taken into consideration that we do not feel that an actual consultation with the public would be useful, but we do feel that there should be communication with the public perhaps in the way after we have presented to the Minister. If I can add, after we have presented to the Minister, we would very much welcome a separate meeting with Scrutiny perhaps to go into the detail once the Minister has been made aware of the preferred option, then after meeting again with Scrutiny, go out to the public with the preferred option in an informative way.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

So the proposal that you might have had a business plan by the end of March has slipped a bit. Do you have a timeline when we might get to the business plan stage?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I think it is important, first of all, that we meet again with yourselves and go through the detail and have comfort in the knowledge that Scrutiny is very supportive of it or take on board any comments Scrutiny may have and then we hope to finish the options appraisal process by the end of April at the latest.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Can I ask you to update us on the work undertaken to determine the skillset that would be required of the mechanics, the type and level of experience to carry out these inspections? That is leading to, once identified, what consideration might be given to training opportunities on-Island and any links with Highlands College and training apprenticeship options.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

After further consideration and engagement with the industry, we are very much looking now at mechanics or people being trained up specifically to undertake the P.T.I.s, who may not necessarily be fully-fledged mechanics with all the qualifications that go with being a fully-fledged mechanic. We have identified that that is probably the most sensible way forward, to work with Highlands or whoever - it could be online courses, but probably to work with Highlands - and go down that line. So the actual P.T.I. M.O.T. (Ministry of Transport) standard would be taken into consideration and people trained up to meet that standard.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

How would you react to garage owners saying they are very worried about their staff being pinched by a government department, who can offer no doubt far better facilities than they may be able to? That has been expressed to me.

[12:00]

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I think that is the point, Chair, that it is better to go down the line of training up types of mechanics who are not necessarily qualified, who may have retired, who may not be in the industry anymore, or to train up new people, and by doing that one avoids depriving the garages of fully-fledged mechanics to be carrying out the P.T.I.s. But it does depend on the preferred option as well.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Do you have any idea when the whole process might be implemented from the public's point of view? Is it going to be 12 months, 6 months? Have you any thoughts with regard to that timeline yet?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Do you mean, Chair, when the P.T.I.s would start being undertaken?

Yes, indeed.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I think we are looking at April 2024, depending on the option. Now, if it were Government building a test station, then we have to go through the whole process of the planning process, the building, and realistically we have put in legislation, April 2024.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Gordon, we have been here so many times before and we have asked you - I do not know whether it was with this particular group of Scrutiny Panel members or from the time before - about training and how it would pan out. Now we are no further advanced. You have not done anything with Highlands to say we are going to have people who we are going to train up to be able to do this. So we are no further advanced, are we?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

We have got time to do this, Connétable , if we are not starting until April 2024. We feel we just have to establish the best option, the most suitable option going forward and then everything else will be led from that, but where we have advanced is that we do recognise the way to do it is to get people trained up. At the end of the day, if it were a Government-built test station, you are looking at about between 13 and 15 people.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

We have got a lot of youngsters who are looking for positions and are going through the Highlands. You are going to use them or you are going to use already trained mechanics? What are you going to do?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

No, the idea is not to use already trained mechanics who are in the industry. There are a lot of mechanics who are no longer in the industry who might be looking for work and also we would look at training up new people.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Do you know how long the training is going to take, Gordon?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

We have not advanced it with Highlands yet, Connétable , but it could be up to 3 years, it could be 2 or 3 years. It depends on what level and what course.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

So we are going to have to start asap if we want to be online when you want to open all this up.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

We have to look at it closely pretty quickly, yes.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Yes, okay.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: But it is very feasible, Connétable .

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

I do not know if it is, my sweetheart, because we have been through here before. As I say, we have asked these questions before and we were told it was in hand and now we are being told it is going to take 3 years. We have already lost at least 3 years or 18 months, but anyway, it will not be me, because I will not be here, but I am disappointed that it is taking all this amount of time and we have still not anything in concrete. Anyway, thank you, Gordon.

Deputy G.J. Truscott:

I was pleased to hear that the report will be given to the Minister on Friday, so I will not be doing any fishing in the meantime. I was just curious, with 110,000-plus cars on-Island, I would imagine this is quite a lucrative business offering. Do we know the potential income that this would generate as an industry or as a service provided on-Island?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Are you happy I take that, Minister?

The Minister for Infrastructure: If you would, please, Gordon.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Bearing in mind that a vehicle will be tested from the fifth birthday onwards every 3 years, we are looking at probably between 25,000 and 30,000 cars a year and we are looking at a cost of around £60, as previously stated, so that is £60 spread over 3 years, so the cost for the public is not huge. It is equivalent to about £20 a year for those vehicles that have to be tested. At the end of the day, it depends which is the preferred option, Deputy . If it is a Government build and a Government testing regime, if Government are doing everything - if that is the preferred option - then we will be looking at a breakeven situation. However, if it is a franchise out to a third party, then a contract will have to be entered into and a LibertyBus type contract, if you want, but in different detail.

Deputy G.J. Truscott:

So £1.8 million. That is no small beer, is it? I would imagine that is quite attractive to local companies.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

If the preferred model were to franchise out, then obviously local companies would have an equal opportunity to bid for it.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Can I just pick up on a current situation with regard to testing, which was brought to my attention? In terms of the mopeds and shall we say smaller motorbikes, can you confirm that the testing process that we are able to undertake at the moment is compliant with the U.K. regulations, particularly in terms of silencers and suchlike? We have a continuous problem with noisy motorbikes. What is the status of D.V.S. with that now?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

It is compliant. We test to the European standard and it is fully compliant.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Do you have the equipment to do what I might call noise tests or do you have decibel readers of some sort at D.V.S.?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

We do not have the equipment that we need or we do not have what we need to do it fully at the moment, no.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Do you anticipate putting that in place or are you deferring that until a vehicle testing station gets built? Do you anticipate it running in parallel to that?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I think we have to look at it closely and see what we can do and bear in mind the cost as well, Chair.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

But given that from a policing point of view it is quite difficult to police noisy motorbikes if the tools are not there to deal with it, would you agree that something in the shorter term would be advantageous?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

If we could get the correct equipment, I agree, but we are looking at it at the moment.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Where does this equipment come from? It was suggested to me that you can get an app on your phone which pretty well does it, so I find it difficult to understand why it is so difficult.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

No, it is a lot more complicated than that, but can I come back to you with more detail?

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Of course.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

It is a political question for the Minister really on the subject. I just was seeking an assurance that whatever happens when it comes to vehicle testing that we do not end up having to import a whole load of people from outside the Island to make it happen, especially with the number of school leavers and stuff, people who could be trained up. There is no reason at all why we should be increasing the population of the Island to facilitate this.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

No. As Gordon pointed out, we are looking at around possibly 15 people to do this. I would prefer to take on young local people because we want to keep them, we do not want them to be transient, in and out of a job, but skilled labour is hard to come by, so once trained - young people - we would like to hold on to them. There are obviously problems. In the U.K. they have been testing since the 1960s, so people have built up the experience and the technological equipment in the preceding years, but we are starting from a standing scratch, if you like, but we do have the expertise at the moment down at D.V.S., which has obviously the P30 vehicles, all the heavy goods vehicles. Gordon has just mentioned the 125s, minibuses. All P.S.V.s (public service vehicles) are already tested, so we do have the technology there, but obviously to test the amount of cars that we have on the Island is a big task, but I have no doubt that the team can handle that and oversee this project and the way forward. We have signed the Vienna Convention and everyone is happy, both in Europe and the U.K. I know we are not part of the European Union, but we have to comply with certain things if we want free transport, if you like, between the Island and the U.K. and Europe. So the

team is working hard towards that end, but I do not see any problem there. I would like to see local people doing this job and being trained to a high specification. Because we do not have the huge mileage that they do in the U.K., the tests will not be as onerous as they are in the U.K. Obviously as we transition more and more to electrical vehicles, then that becomes even less onerous.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I think I am probably going to give Gordon a rest now and move on to Ellen's department and waste strategy. Could the panel be briefly updated on the progress of the waste strategy and when you might anticipate this important strategy will be complete?

Group Director for Operations and Transport: Would you like me to answer this, Minister?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

If you would, please, Ellen or Louise, whoever would like to take that.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight: I can take it, Ellen, if you prefer.

Group Director for Operations and Transport: Do you want to start, Louise, and then ...

Head of Sustainability and Foresight: We will fight over this one, sorry, panel.

The Minister for Infrastructure: We can bat it around later.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight:

Sorry, panel. So this was a piece of work that would have fallen to S.P.3 and I.H.E. (Infrastructure, Housing and Environment) as subject matter experts and this was work that was scheduled to begin in 2019. Officers in S.P.3 then had their work programme reprofiled because of the States Assembly decision to prioritise the declaration of a climate emergency and also bring forward a sustainable transport plan. Both were pieces of work that were required by the end of 2019, so that became the reprofiling of that work, so the revisitation of the waste strategy had to be reprioritised according to the other higher priorities, as set by the States Assembly. 2020 would have been a chance to catch up with all of that. Unfortunately, the work of the pandemic meant that S.P.3 officers and of course many, many operational officers had their work reprofiled in order to help the Government of Jersey efforts to respond to the pandemic. So unfortunately that has meant that the waste strategy work and the update work has still been further delayed. That is not to say that we are not considering it and we do not think it is important. We are still looking at one of the key components, which is an understanding of how waste charging may indeed be an answer to raising the revenue needed to up our recycling rates and all the other factors that we know would be important to improving our recycling and reuse strategies on the Island. However, it is not a priority workstream because of the other priorities set for us by the States Assembly, so I appreciate that is probably not an answer that the Scrutiny Panel are fully delighted with, but unfortunately the Council of Ministers had to make very difficult decisions about work prioritisation, given other States Assembly decisions, so that is sadly where we are at, at the moment. To add, the Revenue Policy Development Board have given consideration to restarting work around commercial waste charging potentially, which would obviously be foundational work to a new solid waste strategy.

[12:15]

But unfortunately it is unlikely that a new waste strategy will come forward in this term of Government. The only other thing to add in relation to waste strategy is of course the plastic bag legislation, which has been drafted and is very close to making its way to the law officers, but that is a separate piece, and I know the question is about the waste strategy.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thank you for being straight and honest. I know it is not an answer we would wish to have heard, but we are where we are I think is the old saying. I suppose a couple of things: linked into the bridging Island Plan, surely the waste strategy is quite crucial. Could you just comment on that?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight:

Are you thinking, Chairman, particularly in respect of land use around things like inert waste sites and disposal and those sorts of things? Are you thinking of the land use aspects, because the waste ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I am thinking about the capacity of Bellozanne, the capacity of the network and suchlike. Maybe Ellen can talk about where we are at Bellozanne in due course, but I was really thinking about the hard realistic practicalities we are having to face now if we are going to be building in additional places to satisfy the housing need. What is the effect going to be on the waste strategy by so doing and so agreeing to that? I think States Members really need to know that.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight:

Thank you. I understand the question. I am sorry, I cannot give you a full update on the Island Plan. I know that those matters have been considered and that they have had to make some assumptions. They have looked at things like mineral availability and solid waste capacity as part of that. I think that there is an overlap between operational management of these issues and a whole new waste strategy. Certainly the lack of a whole new waste strategy does not stop us understanding and planning for what we currently know and assumptions around that operationally. Ellen, do you want to add to any of that, to make more sense of the answer that I just gave?

Group Director for Operations and Transport:

Yes, happy to do so. Certainly from an operational point of view, we are looking at working with our inert waste partner and we are looking at introducing a new wash plant down at La Collette, so again it will give us greater capacity for being able to receive inert waste material on that site, but also being able to provide material to the industry. That is something we are looking at or our partner is looking at introducing later this year. Obviously we are still working closely with the Parishes to try and look at receiving more materials, but again, not just to do with the delays in coming out with the new strategy, we have also got to look at how we fund our recycled materials. As Louise said, we may be looking at charging again and putting that back on the table, because the cost of dealing with recycling materials has pretty much doubled over the last few years and we have got to look at a sustainable way of being able to fund this in the future.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

What is the status of the sewage disposal plant at Bellozanne now? Obviously it has had a lot of expenditure on it. Where we are with that?

Group Director for Operations and Transport:

The new sewage treatment works is slightly behind programme, so we are looking at that being up and running by the beginning of 2023. Obviously we have had the challenges due to COVID and a lot of the engineers and the contractors that are working on the plant are from the U.K., so that has caused some delays, but again, it has only been slightly delayed. It was originally due to be up and running at the end of 2022 and now it has just moved back slightly into 2023.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

What is the effect of that opening going to be? What will the general public notice?

Group Director for Operations and Transport:

I do not think they will notice anything different, Chair.

When they pull their flush, it will still continue?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We are still dealing with the waste, but I would say the team down at Bellozanne at the moment, I always call them the master distillers, because they are using quite old equipment now. It has been modified over the years, but they do an absolutely fantastic job with the processing of the liquid waste, but obviously the new plant will be much more efficient. Due to the States vote, the settlement tanks will be covered so there will be less odour. It is a fantastic system that is going in there and more than happy to do a guided tour when time allows.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

That is helpful. I think the reduction of the odour has been a long-term project and I am sure the residents of Bellozanne will be pleased to hear that, as will their Deputy . Deputy Gardiner , you have a question.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

One type of waste that has not been mentioned, I would like to ask if there are any initiatives or policies or strategies about the food waste.

Group Director for Operations and Transport:

That is not something that we are obviously looking at the moment, but when we do get to looking at our waste strategy, then that is something that we will be looking at in the future. Obviously when we have discussed and looked at food waste in the past, it is very difficult in Jersey to deal with the materials that you have that come out of that plant because it cannot go back on to land because of the protocols with regards to the food that gets produced on there, but I am sure that when we do start looking at the waste strategy, that will be one of the elements that we will consider.

Deputy I. Gardiner : Okay, thank you.

Deputy G.J. Truscott:

Just regarding the Bellozanne plant, I understand it is going to be delivered late. What about budget? Will it be still within budget when it is delivered or are you going over budget on this one?

Group Director for Operations and Transport:

At the moment we are forecasting a slight overspend over budget because of the COVID pressures. We have highlighted those pressures to our colleagues at the Treasury and Exchequer team. Again, hopefully some of that will be funded from the COVID fund.

Deputy G.J. Truscott:

Could you be more specific perhaps, Ellen, exactly how much or a rough estimate at this stage?

Group Director for Operations and Transport: I believe it is just over £1 million at this stage.

Deputy G.J. Truscott:

So in a grand total the scheme itself was many millions, was it not, from memory?

Group Director for Operations and Transport: Yes. The original budget was £79 million.

Deputy G.J. Truscott:

Yes, that is great. Thank you.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thank you, Ellen. If I can move now, Minister, to the office accommodation project. Now that the project has not been deferred, can you please update on the advancement of it and the next steps that will be undertaken to progress the new States office building?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, certainly, Chairman. The contract has not been signed as yet, but I will hand over to Tim.

Director, Jersey Property Holdings:

Thank you, Minister and Chair. I think, as the Minister just identified, the document is yet to be signed. However, following a procurement process, a development partner has been identified and that development partner will design, construct, complete and finance the construction of new office accommodation. The proposed location of the new building is going to be Cyril Le Marquand House and it is intended that we will occupy and operate the building in early 2024. To meet that time, then the documentation will need to be signed in the near future. At the moment, the various protocols required are in process and the intention is that the agreement will be signed in the next couple of weeks.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

It is a political question for the Minister, really. Minister, I am of the view that the old Cyril Le Marquand site - or current Cyril Le Marquand site - is more suited to housing essential workers, all sorts of people queuing up. We have a desperate housing need. What is your view on building a new office building on a site that should really be going for housing?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

A very good point, but I think we need a mix in town of office accommodation and obviously living accommodation. It is a matter of opinion whether that particular site would be best used for housing. I think it is an excellent site for the new States offices. It is pretty central; it has got good access. I would go with Cyril Le Marquand. I think it is an excellent site. It may be slightly altered obviously scale-wise, not quite so high, obviously, which will improve the skyline, but I have seen outline sketches - the plans have yet to be drawn - and I think it is a good site for the new office accommodation. To add to that, the more people we can get into the centralised office, there will be other sites that can be disposed of that are currently being used, which can be then transferred to use as living accommodation.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I note your point about reducing the height of the building, Minister, but do you think then that skyline is more important than accommodating people?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I do not like to see too many high buildings and people tend not to like living in very, very high-rise buildings, but also it depends on the backdrop as well. No, I would say between 5 and 6 floors is pretty good for living accommodation and office accommodation. I do not generally like to go too much higher than that.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I will follow up with another question around the office accommodation. Minister, how can we be assured that this is the best use of Cyril Le Marquand House, the best use of the site for the office than for housing? The decision was made without the estate management strategy. The estate management strategy was published 3 months or 4 months after the decision was made. How can you, Minister, be assured that this is the right use if we did not have a strategy before?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think this is the better deal of the 2 that were on the table, that is for sure. Tim, would you like to answer that one?

Director, Jersey Property Holdings:

While the strategy was only published a couple of months ago, it has been in draft for a while, Deputy . The principles that were laid out in that strategy have been followed and I think that identification of the buildings that are currently used as offices to go to housing, I think that there is a very complex sort of interdependency. There is an education review, a number of other States requirements for space and for development in town, and I think that all of those factors have been put into the mix to consider the best output for the site, which I believe is an office block.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Just the point that the estate management strategy was published by the end of March, just less than 2 weeks ago, but the question was to the Minister. Minister, have you been assured by the Corporate Asset Management Board that this is the best use of the site? Have you met and have you seen the decision of the Corporate Asset Management Board?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

No, that has been done by the team.

Director, Jersey Property Holdings: Yes, sorry.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Can you please respond? It is not by the team. I asked: have you met with the Corporate Asset Management Board?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I just said I have not met, but the team have, I believe. But it is the best site, in my opinion, for the new office strategy.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I think we can move to other questions. Thank you.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Minister, have you been promised an office on the top floor?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

No, unfortunately. No, I have asked for a good provision of offices for Ministers and Assistants, but that remains to be seen. The plans have yet to be drawn up, but we live in hope.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Moving on to other large projects, the hospital site in Overdale, in your role as consultee to the Future Hospital team, could you update us on any further consultation or input provided as Minister or via your department on progress regarding the preferred hospital site?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Do we have Andy with us today? We do not?

Director, Jersey Property Holdings: No, we do not.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Do you mean with the actual hospital or the roads? Where would you like to start?

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I see you have got expertise with regard to roads, so perhaps we could understand the status of that. We understood, as a result of the States decision, there will be consultation with road engineers as to which way to go next, so I suppose my question would be are you working with the hospital project manager with regard to the development of the road access?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Rob, do you want to handle that?

Senior Transport Planner:

Yes, sure. Do you want me to answer that one? So we meet the hospital team fortnightly to discuss. That is a regular slot, unless there is anything else that they need to discuss as and when, but we are meeting fortnightly at the moment and the discussions are ongoing around scoping up the assessment work that is going to be done to assess the impact of the hospital.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

So in terms of the scoping work, is that looking at the approach from town to Westmount or is it looking from the approach to the north or the Tower Road way from the west? How far are you reaching, I suppose is my question?

[12:30]

Senior Transport Planner:

I can send you a study area once we have got it finalised. It is in draft at the moment, but essentially we are looking at all the approaches from every direction. There is a sort of outline. We have decided to go as far out as we think there is going to be a reasonable impact in terms of the change in traffic flows, so that area is then going to be processed by the hospital team and modelled to assess its impact accordingly. Yes, it goes out north in the Queens Road direction, to the south we are looking at how the proposed Westmount Road access works and also looking at the impact going out to the west, so the First Tower area in particular.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Will you be doing the modelling here or is that done by people off-Island?

Senior Transport Planner:

The modelling is being done by an engineering consultancy called Arup, who are employed by the hospital team delivering the project. It is our role, as the Highway Authority, to do the scrutiny or the peer review of their work to make sure it is representative of the local traffic conditions, so we will be doing that here in the team.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thank you. Just to lead into the implications on the old Les Quennevais School as the Overdale decant, if you like, has any work been done with regard to the traffic implications there?

Senior Transport Planner:

Again, with that one, we have had an early kick-off discussion around quantum of development and just exactly what services will be going up there, although I have not had it confirmed to me exactly what is going up there, because I think it is very much a work in progress with the hospital and what is going to ultimately land at Overdale and what is going to be temporarily moved up at Les Quennevais, or the former Les Quennevais site, I should say. But they are going to be again scoping that up and going through the various planning procedures with us, so we will know what is going up there in due course.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

In terms of the residents and the Parish Road Committee, who are the road authority for that area, there has been no communication - no meaningful communication, I have to say - which is disappointing. There is a suggestion now that nothing will happen until the end of 2022. Have you had any further information with regard to the timeline on that development, Minister? Maybe it is one for you.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It might be a slight shift on the timelines, but that is still being worked on. Obviously I will make sure the  team consults  the  Parish  and  Road  Committee  wherever  possible  as  soon  as  we  have information of exactly what is going in there and the team can work out the logistics they will contact you immediately and set up a meeting.

Senior Transport Planner:

If I could add to that one. I know the hospital team are in the process of appointing a highways consultant to do that work so I think it is still at quite an early stage yet, but I will certainly flag it to them at our next meeting that you would like to have a kick-off meeting to discuss the impact with respect to the Roads Committee.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I think any Parish and Roads Committee will be the same. We are not trying to obstruct but we are fully aware of the timelines involved in these things and leaving them to the last minute will only cause undue grief that nobody particularly wants. Deputy Gardiner has a question for you.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

It was reassuring that you would look at the access to Overdale from all possible points; from the north, the east and the west. I would like to check: would you be giving a recommendation, if needed, for possible road improvements other than Westmount Road only. For example, if you find there is a major impact on Tower Road, Old St. John 's Road and improvements need to be made, would you suggest what improvements need to be done to allow the traffic flow?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

There may be improvements to the entire network surrounding the hospital. Can you expand on that, Robert?

Senior Transport Planner:

Once the impact has been identified by the team doing transport assessment work and we are happy it represents a true story or a realistic story of what is likely to happen in the future, it will be then up to the team to propose mitigations if the impact is judged to be unacceptable in traffic terms. As it is the hospital team and their budget who would be ultimately be delivering the project, it would be up to them to suggest exactly how they want to tackle the particular issue. As you can appreciate, there are usually several different ways to tackle any one problem so it depends on what the assessment work flags up as a problem.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Minister, could you update us on the progress of the demolition and planning consent for the access proposals and structures?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Of the hospital?

Director, Jersey Property Holdings:

I am not aware that any progress has been made until the planning process has been completed, so at the moment I do not believe there is any progress.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I am surprised to hear what your officer has just said about traffic and the need to do assessments of the amount of effect the traffic will have on the existing roads. Surely that is something you have done already or otherwise how would you know this is the right site to build if you do not know whether you can get everybody there?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The States have decided that is where it is going and we have to make it fit. The team is doing its best. As Robert has just pointed out, it is a company called Arup who are leading on this but we are infrastructure consultees on this but Arup is leading on the road structure leading to the new hospital.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

You are saying, Minister, the States have made the decision to build a new hospital without the full facts in the knowledge that possibly we may find we cannot get people there.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

There is no perfect site in Jersey, that is the problem, but this is the site that was chosen and we have to facilitate this. Westmount Road was the only major road leading to it. Other roads have been considered. Going up through the valley on the south side was considered too steep. The team was well aware of the logistics. My team at Infrastructure is very professional; likewise, the team at Arup. There is some augmentation of the roads that needs to be done but that is all in the pipeline at the moment.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I take your view on board, Minister, but you are Minister for Infrastructure and you voted in favour of building the hospital at Overdale. You must have done that without the full information of what effect on the infrastructure the amount of traffic will have.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I knew what it was but obviously the plans have not been fully formulated for the new hospital yet, so there are other roads that would need to be altered once we have the full plans here. We know that Westmount will be the major road going and that is the road that has been concentrated on, but other roads will need to be made further up Westmount Road leading into the hospital. That is all in the pipeline. We are consultees on this but, as I say, a perfect site for a new hospital does not exist. A proposition was brought to exclude a Gloucester Street site and everything else went to a panel that was going through every single possible site on the Island, and this was considered to be the best.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

I am absolutely flabbergasted with this because now you are talking about other roads and you are talking about no other site, but everybody knows that Warwick Farm was on the flat. There is obviously something in the pipeline.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Warwick Farm is not flat.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

There is obviously something for Warwick Farm on the horizon. But now you are talking about other roads. When an ambulance needs to get somewhere everybody clears the decks and everything is fine. We do not need a racetrack. You have other journeys, and there is no point in saying it is life or death because it is not. When you are in Southampton Airport and you are going to Southampton Hospital, they ring the bells and everybody gets out of the way, but it is not a racetrack. Why are we having a Le Mans type of thing? It is possibly not you personally, but it is not very long ago we always wanted to have the park. The people who lived in St. Helier did not want the park to go, and yet you are chipping away at it quite nicely and now we hear there are other roads. We cannot be expected to vote on something in the States when we do not have all the information and I am bitterly disappointed now that we have other roads.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

When I say "other roads", I am talking about internal roads into the hospital, in and around the hospital at the top of Westmount Road. But Westmount Road itself must be altered because it does not fit with the specifications needed. If we have a blue light situation with ambulances, et cetera, then they have to have sufficient space to go up Westmount Road but it must not be too steep. There are regulations, and I am not sure if it is one in 12 or thereabouts. It must be a gradual rise in the road and it cannot be a steep hill. That is why the corners have been taken away. I have requested that the minimum amount of trees will be lost on People's Park. There will be a few trees lost but not that many. We are trying to keep that to an absolute minimum. Arup is dealing with this but we are consultees on this. It is not our project as such. It is a standalone project for the hospital but we are consultees. People, as you know, are like water. They will take the shortest route. We

know that if someone is coming from the north they will not come down through town and up Westmount Road. They will find other routes. So, this is still work in progress but we are trying to minimise the structure, minimise the amount of trees that come down and just deliver the new hospital as soon as we can.

Deputy G.J. Truscott:

It would not take a rocket scientist to work out that plainly First Tower Road going west is totally inadequate and the north road, Old St. John 's Road, is totally inadequate as well. I presume we will talk about spending many millions on those and improving the road quality and the road width, et cetera, to get them up to standard to cope with the volumes derived from the new hospital being at Overdale.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

That is a work in progress at the moment. I am not sure exactly how that is being worked out. I would say Arup is dealing with that and the Infrastructure team are consultees on the specifications. We have just done a lot of work at the top of Queen's Road and behind the pet shop we have just put in a new table-top crossing to keep the children safe crossing the road; so we are well aware of all the factors involved here.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

I am sorry about this. I do not know whether you have this in your remit; can you tell us how many properties the States has bought in Kensington Place as a possible site and how many properties they have bought where we are hoping to put the hospital?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I believe it is 6 on the new one, but as mentioned previously, the States have decided that the Gloucester Street hospital cannot be rebuilt as such. Can you help out, Tim?

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

How many properties have been bought around the Gloucester Street original site?

Director, Jersey Property Holdings:

Apologies, I do not have that information but we can get it to you straight after the meeting.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Yes, please, thank you.

Do you think, Minister, is it time to turn back and just extend and improve Gloucester Street so we can move on? Is this project ever going to get built, do you feel?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It will get built. Originally, I was in favour of rebuilding Gloucester Street but obviously the plans were not approved. Later on, a proposition was brought that Gloucester Street would not be rebuilt as a hospital and that was passed by the States, so this was the next thing to look at was all the sites. That included People's Park. There was a lot of public push-back for People's Park. They wanted People's Park preserved. All the sites, it started off maybe 50 sites and they came to be whittled down by a panel to about 5 sites that included several in St. Saviour , several at Millbrook and all the surrounding areas there. But everything was whittled down and this was decided to be the best site. It was a site we already own.

[12:45]

It is already ours, but obviously houses have been built up nearby, so we have to make alterations regarding the access roads. But the hospital itself, Overdale, is already a hospital, is a site we own. Many buildings in Overdale, sadly, are derelict but this appears to be the best of the bunch at the moment.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Moving down, Minister, the Connétable of Grouville , has a question.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Minister, if you had known when you voted to put the hospital at Overdale that you would have to make so many alterations to all the roads around there, would you have gone for it?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As Gloucester Street was excluded, yes. There were several sites looked at. It has always been my thought that the new hospital should be either in town or as close to town as it could possibly be, because most of the people who work at the hospital live in town. Most of the people who visit the hospital for procedures, or whatever, live in town. Most people who visit people in hospital live in town, and there are several hundred people in the morning are changing shifts, coming off shift at hospital or going on shift. That is a huge amount of people.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Overdale is not in town and it may as well be 5 miles away because it is an extremely difficult place to get to. Hence you have to change all the roads around.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Wherever we put it we would have to change the roads because of the sheer volume of traffic going to it. There would be a lot of people working, as I say, visiting, emergency vehicles, delivery vehicles, so it has to be a substantial road. Wherever we put it we would need to improve the roads.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Minister, I know you will come back and say the States made the decision not to build in Gloucester Street, but surely you agree if we rebuilt in Gloucester Street, we would not need to change the roads. The same number of people need to go to the same hospital on the same site. It is not going to require major road rebuilding.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Absolutely, and I have made it very clear from the outset that I would have preferred to have the Gloucester Street premises rebuilt. I have made that very clear from day one. But that has now been excluded by the States of Jersey so this is the next best option. We have, as you know, rebuilt the General Hospital from the Victorian wing to the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s. It has been constantly added to. It has been said you cannot build a new hospital next to the old one but we have been doing that since the beginning of time and they have done this in the U.K. over the years. They rebuilt hospitals and they remain operational. It would be a difficult process but as a former Minister for Planning I am sure you are aware of the procedures involved. I was in favour of the Gloucester Street site and the rebuild there. That was excluded by the States of Jersey and, in my opinion, this is the next best site.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Minister, if I am correct, about 30 per cent of people who visit the current hospital are walking in. Can we expect the same percentage of people walking into Overdale or are we increasing the traffic flow?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

There will be a hoppa bus going up there on a regular basis, that is for sure. We are trying to minimise traffic but we are reactive, not proactive, on this. This is the problem we have been landed with and we will do our best to solve it. If that means extra facilities like a tramway, cable car or whatever, mass transit of people, then we are more than happy to look at that.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I am going to wrap this one up, Minister. Many members of the public have expressed disquiet over the fact that both Warwick Farm and St. Saviour 's were ruled out without justification being given to them. I am sure there was justification put in place but from a transport point of view, what were your views on Warwick Farm and St. Saviour 's Hospital in terms of the hospital location?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

St. Saviour 's Hospital would have been very difficult. As the Constable of St. Saviour will attest, we have 11 schools in and around St. Saviour . During school start time in the morning, it is pretty much gridlocked now and if that were to coincide with change of shifts at the hospital the whole Island would grind to a halt. We would need to completely rebuild roads going up Bagatelle and St. Saviour 's Road. We would need to completely rebuild the roundabout at Five Oaks and extend that hugely. I am not a professional road engineer. I am merely a politician, but logistically it would be huge.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Minister, was your department consulted on that or was there any consideration given by your department or was it purely the hospital group who did that?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

That was a hospital panel site selection.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

In terms of transport, I was wondering if your department had any input into the conversation regarding the site selection on this.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Yes, they were consulted.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : What about Warwick Farm?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Warwick Farm is a big site. It is out of town and not somewhere you can walk to. The roads do not have any pavements going up there. The site itself is large but there is quite a steep slope going backwards off there and it was deemed unsuitable for a hospital. I do not have the exact details on Warwick Farm but I have been told because of the topography there it would not be suitable for a hospital.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

It defies logic. Most residents look at it and yes, it has a slight slope but nothing like the slope at Overdale. Then we have logically a straight road. Surely it has to be less expensive to put pavements in than reconfigure roads.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

In the mornings, if you look at Queen's Road, for instance, down to the roundabout, that is gridlocked in the morning, so we are talking major traffic flows here. Also, with the General Hospital, as it is at the moment we have Patriotic Street Car Park directly next door and that comes straight off the dual carriageway, so there was a main line straight in.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

The truth is you are suggesting we cannot walk. It is a longish walk to Warwick Farm but I suggest walking to Overdale is probably more challenging.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Trust me, let us leave it where it is, the way I feel at this moment.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Okay, we will move away from hospitals, Minister, and on to plastic bag legislation. Could you update us on the progress regarding the legislation to reduce the use of plastic and paper bags, noting that February 2021 was the agreed date for this legislation to be brought forward? You indicated earlier it is in the pipeline. Where exactly are we with that?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Louise, can you take that, please?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight:

Thank you, Constable and Chair. You are absolutely right; really close and I am sorry it has taken a little bit longer than the February deadline. You do not want me to plead resources as an issue. You heard my stories before on the waste strategy. This has been a complicated piece of legislation and there have been a lot of stakeholders. That has held us up a bit but we are very hopeful that because we have done the work with the stakeholders ahead of the drafting and enforcement issues and how we would enforce the law, we are hopeful that because we have done all that work upfront, the legislation will be smoother as a result of that. The position we are currently in is there is a final draft. It has just been handed over to the law draftsman for a final read, which is for internal consistency. As soon as that is signed off then we have the ability to present it to Ministers, Council of Ministers, and then go for lodging in the States. We believe it will take about a month for the law drafts to sign off and go through that process and then a 6-week lodging period with the Assembly. Apologies for missing the February deadline but we are pretty close, is the answer to that.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

In terms of consultation with the stakeholders, you mentioned that consultation has taken place. To what extent?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight:

There was some survey work that was done with stakeholders of the public about the impact of the legislation, what price they thought plastic bags should be charged for, because you will recall one of the requirements for the legislation to set a minimum price. Those responses helped us to come up with a recommendation for the price, which the States Assembly may choose to differ, of course, when it debates the legislation but that allowed us to come up with that. Also, the consultation with stakeholders was very helpful in helping us understand the implementation period, so things like latency of stock turnover for existing plastic bags stock, should a law come in that would then outlaw that stock. That is the sort of thing that was picked up in the consultation. A consultation report was published as a result of the work that was done so we are very happy to make sure you see a copy of that and send that back to you if that is helpful.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

To understand the timeline, after the States decision within 2 months you have gone to the consultation. Consultation has been completed in September.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight: That is right.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Between consultation completed in September that we were very fast going forward until the lodging in February, it is past 6 months. I understand we have COVID-19 in place. In January and February I have been indicated, as you know that I was following the process, that it is in the final draft. I asked the Minister an oral question that I have been answered in writing because I did not have time to answer and I understood it has gone to law drafting in March. Now we have another 2 months delay.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight:

I am sorry, Deputy , there are 2 different things there. It has been backwards and forwards to the law draftsman many, many times. I am sure you realise that writing primary legislation is an incredibly complicated process and this has multiple issues around the technical information around the bags themselves that will or will not be banned, how that is enforced and the mechanisms that have to happen to ensure the primary legislation can be delivered. You are right. Disappointingly, that has taken a little longer than we would have hoped. There is a lot of pressure within the organisation upon officers returning from COVID-19 duty to look at how the impact of the legislation will be on their department. For example, a piece of work that has taken some time is understanding how we can take environmental health officers and have them as people who can enforce the legislation and be very sure we can have those people in place and resourced to deliver the outputs of the law. Those are the things that have taken time and I appreciate that is disappointing and frustrating for you, but that going backwards and forwards, including points of law drafting, has taken a while. The last piece of read-off that I just described was the final, final draft going back to the law officers for a full read, so it is not a drafting thing that is happening now; it is a final read through. As you can imagine, law officers are pretty busy with Brexit legislation, which is why it is taking about another month.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

It is not just frustrating for me. I think it will be frustrating for a lot of people who are looking forward to this legislation and if something would happen to reduce single use plastics during this term it might be the only thing that would happen, so I hope it will happen before the elections in 2022, as we need 6 months to introduce. What will be the latest, with all the contingency that you can take in place, the legislation will be lodged? End of May? End of June?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight:

I would rather not say a date off the top of my head because I would worry that I would say the wrong date and disappoint you. Would you accept that if I go back and have a discussion with the law draftsman about the read through and check our final timelines through lodging and provide that date back to you separately, would that be acceptable?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

It would be great if we could provide some clear deadlines for lodging the legislation. I understand it is not February even though the States decision was February.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight:

We did always say it would be an ambitious deadline.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I will move, Minister, to the sustainable transport policy, R.137/2020. The sustainable transport policy status update was published in November 2020. It highlighted that analysis work to shape the policy had commenced in August with stakeholder consultation taking place through to

September, as was published for wider consultation that ran through to December 2020. It was anticipated that once the responses had been reviewed and considered, the approach to rapid analysis after which the projects could be finalised. What were the outcomes of the consultation process?

[13:00]

The Minister for Infrastructure:

If I could bring in one of the newer members of our team, the senior policy officer, Louisa Phillips, who, I am not sure if you have met before, works for Transport for England and we are very lucky to

get her to come to Jersey and work with us. *

She is very experienced and I will hand you over

to Louisa.

Senior Policy Officer:

I have picked up the sustainable transport policy and the consultation on the wider sustainable transport policy was completed last year. Do you want me to give you an update on where we are, because since then there has been a further consultation on the rapid plan analysis?

The Connétable of St. Brelade : That would be helpful. Please do.

Senior Policy Officer:

There are 4 rapid plans that are discussed in the overarching sustainable transport policy. There is one on active travel, bus development, parking and mobility as a service. The scoping documents for them were drafted in the early autumn of 2020 and they went out for public consultation in December. We had a relatively low number of responses to that and we have been working our way through the responses that were provided. It was a bit of a 50:50 mix from private individuals and organisations on the Island as to who provided those responses and we now have a summary document that looks at the interfaces between all the comments that were received and how they align to each of the rapid plans and where there is overlap, et cetera. We have a summary document now that I literally went through this morning, which we will publish as part of Jersey's climate conversations, so I am happy to share that with you after this meeting. As a result of that consultation and the responses we have received we are now actively taking forward each of those 4 rapid plans. We have commissioned various different experts raised into the topics on each of those plans and we are expecting initial recommendations and policy ideas to come forward to us in the summer, so around July.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thank you. What about a cycling strategy? Is this incorporated?

Senior Policy Officer:

Yes, the active travel plan will look specifically at cycling and pedestrians and it is going to take a holistic approach to the Island. It is not going to just be looking at the east or the west. It will be looking at a cross-Island network for infrastructure and opportunities for better provision of cycling and pedestrians. Also, make sure that people understand that safety is one of the top priorities for that rapid plan as well.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Clearly the taxi service forms an integral part of the transport policy. The taxi service is frustrated, I think it is fair to say, by the existence of Jersey Lifts, Minister. I am well aware that you regard it as a policing issue. The police seem to bat it back to you and it seems to oscillate between you and the Minister for Home Affairs. How can we get a grip of this, do you think? It is far from satisfactory, it has to be said, and what can we do to overcome this situation in the interests of the unfortunate taxi drivers who have to comply with the regulations, which you put on the table for them?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Absolutely, I cannot argue with that, Chairman. But I can only regulate by law what is legal. I cannot regulate what is illegal, which Jersey Lifts clearly is. Should anything happen, heaven forbid if someone is given a lift that someone is paying for that, if you are carrying for hire or reward, and there is a horrific accident for instance, that would immediately invalidate the insurance of the vehicle. Because you are carrying for hire or reward and your insurance would be invalid. Plus there have been no background checks on the driver, so any criminal record, we do not know if they are some kind of offender. We do not know if there is drugs or drink involved. It is completely unregulated and it is a major, major problem. I have written to our colleague, the Minister for Home Affairs, and asked him to do what he can to stop it. But, as I say, their cars are not inspected. Because obviously taxi drivers are public service vehicles and they are inspected annually. They have meters, which are checked by D.V.S. As I say, these people are completely unregulated and are not paying any tax. There is no way in the world that legitimate taxi drivers can compete with somebody that does not have to jump through the same hoops.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I do not think that the panel would dispute that. What I am looking for is some proactivity in dealing with it. Clearly, we do not seem to be getting anywhere. We have had discussions, as you say, with the Minister for Home Affairs and is it for perhaps your department to be proactive with regard to road checks for late at night when these people tend to be out and about? So that we can get a grip of the situation as it is. Would you think that was a way forward?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well my officers would not have the vires to do that.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

You carry out road checks for road conditions.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

To make sure vehicles are in a roadworthy condition. But the illegality would be a policing matter, either States or Honorary, to arrest the driver if there was drink or drugs or some illegal activity going on. I do not have the authority to stop anyone carrying out this because, by its nature, it is illegal. I can only regulate the taxi industry as is.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

That said, have your officers worked with the police department to try to be proactive in dealing with this situation? How can we progress this?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I have written to the Minister for Home Affairs and I know the head of D.V.S. has spoken to the chief officer. But I do not know what more I can do. I would not have any more authority than a private individual would have. It is an illegal activity. I cannot regulate something that is illegal. If somebody wanted to set themselves up as a taxi driver, then they could put their name down with D.V.S. Then they would have to pass the test as a public service vehicle driver and they would need their cars to be obviously checked in the same mode and they would need adequate insurance and be registered. Gordon, could you elaborate on that, if you would? If I could just add, I am as frustrated as you are, Chairman, with this. It comes back time and time again. Regarding this, my hands are tied, I am not a police officer.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Perhaps, Minister, I could just add for the panel that D.V.S. officers have been out on a regular basis with the police late at night, early mornings, at the weekend, particularly very recently with the speeding campaign detecting boy racers or girl racers or whoever. We do this as much as we can. I have to be mindful of budget in that respect because it is very costly. We are very happy working with the police. But of course that is only in one area, Jersey Lifts, and that is potentially defective vehicles. You have all the other areas that are most definitely, as the Minister says, policing matters. One area where we are working more closely with the taxi industry is to highlight to them that they

need to market themselves perhaps a bit better. There has to be more availability at the times that youngsters are looking for Jersey Lifts. I did hear that unofficially there were a couple who were looking to get a taxi but because of the massive queue at the Weighbridge rank one Friday evening decided to contact Jersey Lifts. Now, if there is more taxi availability in the evenings at the very busy times, then perhaps that would help. However, it is a bigger issue because there are lots of other areas with Jersey Lifts that certainly D.V.S., the department, just cannot control or get involved in.

Head of Transport and Infrastructure:

Just to add from my previous experience of working with Gordon and D.V.S., is what also has occurred is through the taxi review legislation has been introduced that allows the Jersey indigenous taxi industry to benefit from the same technologies as Jersey Lifts and Uber and the likes. So they can be electronic entities, they can do electronic bookings and provide those same services. So that is one thing that has been proactively done in the law to help level the playing field. But of course D.V.S. can only look after what they regulate. They cannot look after what they do not regulate, which is obviously the illegal side of it.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

If I could just add one more thing, I do not believe it is a cost issue, because I do not believe it is any more expensive to go in a taxi than a Jersey Lift with the car-sharing, with people sharing. So I do not think it is a cost issue. I do not think people are going to Jersey Lift because it is cheaper. I think it is perhaps an availability issue.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Rank drivers have obviously created their own app now. Have you any idea how widespread that is within the indigenous taxi industry?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

The use of various apps is getting more and more popular. I know in 2019 the rank drivers, the yellow plates, the Jersey Taxi Drivers Association, which make up most of the rank drivers, benefited from around 16,000 to 18,000 calls on the app. Now that is very advantageous to them and very advantageous to the public. So, as part of the taxi review, the private hire prebooked side of it, and apps are classed as prebooked bookings, was lifted. So there is no longer a restriction on rank drivers as to the number of prebooked bookings they can take.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

So this differential between rank and private hire that has been prevailing for many years, is it still justified?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

There is no differential as such anymore because it is virtually a one-tier system. Because rank drivers can benefit from as many private hire bookings as they want and more and more private hire plates can access the various ranks around the Island. So the differential between the 2 has all but disappeared.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I am grateful for that. I think you are going in a sensible direction with the tools that you have. Minister, I am going to slip down to Broad Street now. Broad Street has been closed to traffic temporarily as a response to COVID-19. Calls have now been made to close Broad Street to traffic permanently and to transform it into a thriving pedestrianised hub for activities such as street markets, street food, theatre, street theatre, entertainment and exhibitions. We understand it is your intention to reopen the road when it is safe to do so. But could you explain your rationale for this and whether any consideration has been given to what I have just suggested?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

This has been in place for some time now. Obviously, it came from the health component of S.P.3. It is not just Broad Street as such. It was further down at Charing Cross where there are 2 zebra crossings there and, when the traffic is flowing, people did bunch up and it was quite usual to see 30 or 40 people bunching up there waiting to cross on a zebra crossing. It was felt desirable as a temporary measure to close Broad Street just to ease that bottleneck of pedestrians wandering around.

[13:15]

Also, the pavements in Broad Street are quite narrow and it was just to give people the 2-metre space to pass each other by walking in the road where necessary. But obviously now that these things are being eased it was going to open very shortly, Broad Street. But now the Constable of St. Helier has brought this proposition for the States to debate.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

So we have the Constable saying: "Turn Broad Street into a pedestrian activity hub", but you suggest it is going to reopen. So what are your views and how do you think the debate will go in the States? What would your advice be to Members?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is a matter for Members. I would like to keep it open, possibly restrict or discourage just regular traffic wandering down there. Obviously, we are going to start a hoppa bus in the not-too-distant future. Diverting the bus would have been a major problem. Obviously, we spoke to LibertyBus with a view to taking the bus from the Memorial up through Church Street and around, but that is quite a tight corner at the top of Church Street coming back into Mulcaster Street. It was considered undesirable to take the bus around that route. So I would like to restart the bus in Broad Street as soon as possible because a lot of people, especially senior citizens, like the bus coming straight into the centre of town. Likewise, on the other side of the road, we had several disabled spaces, which people are missing. We did set up alternative spaces in Dumaresq Street but people expressed a wish to be slightly closer regarding their old spaces. So I would be in favour of maybe curtailing the major flow of traffic but I would like to see it open for buses, disabled vehicles and bicycles obviously, and a steady flow of traffic coming through. But not the huge amount of traffic we have had.

Deputy G.J. Truscott:

The Minister has touched on the question I was going to ask regarding disabled drivers. Is it 3 or 4 places in Broad Street? I do understand, as you have said, you did set up an alternative or there was already some provision in Dumaresq Street. But did you drop the kerb stones in Dumaresq Street? Because I have certainly heard from a few people that are disabled they found the pavement still quite high there and difficult to negotiate.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

No, I believe the kerb stones were as is in Dumaresq Street. This was just temporary while we hopefully got through the main body of COVID and we have gone from 2 metres to one metre. So the need to have the huge separation was no longer there.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Minister, what is your opinion with regard to whether the view of a Parish should have a greater influence on Government decisions that relate directly to a Parish, such as this? Where the Parish of St. Helier 's view regarding the use of Broad Street and the impact on life in St. Helier is to them of a higher importance?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We all are obviously part of St. Helier but we all share a town, we all live in the same Island and we are 9 by 5. But obviously we consult with the Parish when we are going to do something. But while the road was closed we did invite the local establishments, if they wanted to put tables and chairs in the road while it was closed, and we did not get one reply.

So your government policy dictates that more space should be given to people walking in town. In your opinion, do you believe vehicular traffic in Broad Street is mainly through traffic at the moment and would it be better used as space for pedestrians? Or do you go back to your suggestion that occasional traffic is acceptable?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I would say occasional traffic is acceptable. But we need to reduce the traffic flow through town but there will always be a need for people to come into town, just dropping people off and, as I mentioned, the disabled spaces opposite. But we may need to tweak the roads a little, maybe extend the pavements. But it is a through bus, it was quite crucial for a lot of people. They miss the bus outside of what is now States offices.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thank you, Minister. There are just a couple of points, one with regard to roads and stability of banks and walls. This is one that has come in; a couple of areas in the Island have suffered from banks falling down on to main roads. Then we find that barricades get put up and they sit about until such time as these issues get resolved. It is far from satisfactory that the barricades are really unesthetic and not very helpful for the general public coming to use the road. Do you have a policy with regard to that? We are certainly conscious of a situation in St. Saviour and a situation in St. Brelade .

The Minister for Infrastructure: Also in St. Lawrence have had a few,

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

It may be due to the heavy rains I suspect. But it seems to me that some quicker activity, some policy or protocol with regard to quicker activity needs to be put in place. Because these orange barriers languishing in our country roads is not ideal.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I would agree. If the walls were ours they would be dealt with quite quickly. But because the walls are privately owned, and likewise the fields and banks behind, that is where the complication arises. So it is for the landowner to remedy that if their wall falls down. But sometimes it may be a long- protracted insurance claim. Tristan, would you like to help out with that one?

Head of Transport and Infrastructure:

I would only really summarise the points you have made, Minister. You are absolutely right. We do not have the vires to go on to people's land or to intervene. It is a perennial problem. It has been particularly bad this year because we have had such a high rainfall. All we can do is to try to secure the area to keep the public safe and to work with the landowners and through the planning and the dangerous structures to encourage them to rectify their walls to appropriate modern standards. There has been quite a lack of investment by private landowners on these retaining structures and it certainly is an issue. It is an area where we really are seeking to develop more standard processes and to create some sort of database of risks on the Island. Because it is becoming increasingly an issue.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thank you. Speed limits, always an interesting subject. There was a note in the J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post) about frustration at the lack of progress on speed limits. Minister, during our previous hearings, we have discussed at length the approach being followed in determining the speed limits on our Island roads. You acknowledged the frustration of Parishes with regard to how slowly the change of speed limits were being made. However, you noted that it was your responsibility to follow the procedures set out in law and that it took time to go through the processes involved. So, given that frustration has been highlighted again, and regarding the red tape involved in change to speed limits, despite positive discussions taking place with Parishes, would you agree the current system is not working adequately and that changes are required to bring forward a robust and feasible system?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think you hit the nail on the head. It is working adequately but we would all like it to work faster, that is for sure. But, as you know, there is a tremendous amount of work regarding legislation for changing speed limits. The team do work very hard on this. Lots of consultation. Obviously, law officers are involved. But this was an agreed procedure that was agreed by the Comité des Connétable s. Tristan, would you like to ...?

Head of Transport and Infrastructure:

Also it needs to be recognised that, with the demands of the S.T.P. (Sustainable Transport Policy) and other initiatives on the department, there is an increased workload and we have had a large number of staff leave. So we have quite a number of gaps in the organisation. We are going to seek to rebuild the section. But, at the moment, we are very short of resource and particularly qualified resource. So most of our staff are trainees nowadays.

The Connétable of Grouville :

It is not just the length of time for speed limits, it is other issues on roads. Minister, you know that I wrote to you about 3 weeks ago my frustration at the time it takes. What is wrong?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As Tristan has pointed out, we have had some staff leave and obviously people do retire from time to time. But we are doing our best to get through it. But it does take time. There is a lot of work involved in this. But, as I say, it is not a huge amount of time, but obviously we would all like it to be done quicker. But there is a process that we have to follow.

The Connétable of Grouville :

It is a huge amount of time. It has been nearly 18 months I have been trying to get some things done in my Parish. I am not the only one. My 2 fellow Constables on this panel have the same problem. Two of the Deputies on this panel have approached your department. You must be able to put this right somehow or other because we cannot carry on like this. The population of Grouville has grown, like all other Parishes. We have increasing problems with parking, for example, and we cannot do anything at all. My parishioners get incredibly frustrated and they take it out on me and they say: "Why are you not doing something?"

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Then you take it out on me, yes. We share your frustration ...

The Connétable of Grouville :

But I am not in charge of it, Minister, you are.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We just had this huge problem with COVID and we are not out of the woods yet, not by any means. A lot of the staff were taken off to other projects. As Tristan just said, we have lost one of our key workers who has gone to work in Scotland. We have had a few others who have moved on. We have one or 2 good replacements, who you met earlier on. But it is something we are desperately trying to play catch up ...

The Connétable of Grouville :

Can I ask when we will get back to normal then?

Head of Transport and Infrastructure:

Sorry, can I just intervene? We have had a little bit of an alignment in the plan, in some respects, in that it takes about 10 years to train up someone from scratch to be a highways engineer or transport planner and to get them qualified. So we cannot magic them up. We have had strict controls on the number of people that we can recruit and we have recruited and we have those people in training, but they are not fully qualified yet. Normally, what we would try to do is to bring in someone from one of our consultancies to support them where we have gaps on short-term engagements. Unfortunately, due to COVID, we cannot get those into the Island and that has been a problem. In any case, bringing in a consultant takes a couple of years to get up to speed in terms of how Jersey works. At the same time, we have also had staff diverted on to COVID-related activities last year. Now, we will be bringing forward a recruitment strategy, but that is going to take some time to rebuild the section. When you look at the number of people that have left over the last 3 to 4 years, then there is a big hole in the organisation. I do not know if Ellen wants to add anything on that, if Ellen is listening in still?

Group Director of Operations and Transport:

It is not just within the transport planning team, but it is the engineers as a whole, certainly within Operations and Transport. It is not just the age profile. People have made the decision to go back to the U.K. As Tristan has alluded to, we have developed a recruitment strategy in conjunction with our colleagues within H.R. (Human Resources) and that has now commenced. We are starting to recruit. But it is very difficult to get qualified engineers to work for the Government of Jersey. We cannot offer the right pay and they are just not out there. So, to get experienced engineers, we have to go to the U.K. to be able to bring them in. As Tristan has already said, that takes time. We feel the frustration but we are trying to do everything that we can now to try to move this forward.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We were very luck with getting Louisa because Louisa had family over here. But to get someone to move over during COVID, it is not going to happen.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I appreciate what you have said and we understand the predicament the department finds itself in. But will you assure the panel that you will be making this point with the new interim chief executive? Whereas it seems to us that the former chief executive did not support you in what you might be needing. I would urge you to make that point very directly.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Absolutely, more than happy to do that; we would like a bigger budget and more staff.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Can I make it plain as well, this is not a criticism of the officers here this morning because it seems to me they are not getting the resources they need to provide the service that we need? I know how hard Tristan works because I deal with him quite a lot and get very good service from him. But when it comes to the day-to-day stuff there is not the resources there and that is really a ministerial responsibility.

[13:30]

The Minister for Infrastructure:

If I had the money, I would do it immediately, but I do not. As I say, we have lost a lot of our budget due to COVID. Not just staff being transferred to other areas, but the budget was restricted as well. But we do the best we can with what we have. We are just as frustrated as you are. We have this work we need to get done and the team are working their way through it as fast as they can.

Group Director of Operations and Transport:

We have had a lot of support from the Minister so we have within our new T.O.M. (target operating model), we have expanded and tried to develop the role certainly within transport where there has been such new demand. But, as Tristan says, to get people experienced to be able to come in and deliver those projects takes time. As you know, and as we have talked about, a lot of our experienced engineers have left the organisation.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Constable of St. Saviour , I know you just want to say something about Roads Committees because that is quite important.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Yes. Every Parish has a Roads Committee that meet on a regular basis. Every person on that Roads Committee knows their Parish and they know what is required. They find it very frustrating when it gets to your department that you just overrule or you just cast it aside to wait for something else. The Parishes know their roads, they know what is required, they know what is needed. I know from my Roads Committee they are very frustrated where they are not treated with respect and it is just such a shame.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I am not sure where they have been treated with disrespect. But we have a set procedures that all the Constables, the Comité des Connétable s have agreed to. We follow that procedure. All the Constables, Roads Committees and Parishes are treated with respect. So I am not sure where this comes from.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

It is ignoring it, ignoring what the Roads Committee are asking.

The Connétable of Grouville :

When it comes to parking issues, what did you agree with the Committee of Constables? Surely you agreed to meet them and discuss where things needed sorting. But that does not happen. Speed limits are slightly different but that is a simple matter. I appreciate you do not have the resources, but there is no policy on that. New officers come out and we say: "We have a problem here, this is dangerous or this exit is dangerous", or whatever, and it is quite simple matters. You do not really need to be a road engineer, to be honest with you, to say: "We have a real problem with people leaving their cars here for 3 days, we would like a 12-in-24." It is not rocket science.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I am signing orders on a regular basis. Do you want to come in, Tristan?

Head of Transport and Infrastructure:

What I would say is that any changes to the road network need consideration and then there are law-drafting instructions to draft to get through the process. That takes time. The same person who is doing that is also keeping the traffic signals running, keeping the street lighting running, developing road safety schemes. So it is often a question of prioritisation. So where do you put your efforts? Do you put your efforts where accidents are occurring or where accidents may occur? That is one of the difficulties that we have been trying to explain. So we cannot just bring in additional resource easily. So what we have is a recruitment strategy, which we are going to use to seek to address this. Then running in parallel with that we are going to be bringing forward a law review because also we believe that a lot of these processes can be streamlined because our law is so old. So that is another project that we have to take forward. So in some respects it is trying to build the pipeline at the same time as you are manning the bucket chain. That takes prioritisation. But we do seek to get on to everything. It is just how we spread our resources out and work with the Minister as to how we prioritise.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Deputy Luce , last question, I am conscious of the time.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Thank you, Chairman. It is one for the Minister. Minister, we hear what you are saying, you are short of resources, you are short of staff. But what do you say to the Constable of Grouville if you cannot find the staff because you do not have the resources? Where does that leave him? Where does that leave the Island? How do we make progress unless you can do something?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As I said, there are several factors, which you have heard, one of which is COVID and the other one is staff and the other one is recruitment. But we are doing our best to work our way through it as fast as we can. Everyone is treated with respect because we know all of the Constables, we have worked with all the Parishes, and we know many of the Roads Committees individually. So I would not say they have been treated with disdain, disrespect of anything, but we are working our way through it as fast as we can. As soon as we get back to any kind of normality, which I hope is not too far away, then we would like to expand it as much as we can. Tristan, do you want to come in?

Head of Transport and Infrastructure:

I just wanted to add to the Deputy , I think the secret is getting young people into the Government of Jersey and offering them structured training progressions and career futures. That is the way to build the section back up. However, we will need to get some senior mentors in from the outside because obviously with the number of qualified engineers we have they are spread quite thinly between the number of trainees we have in place at the moment. But I think that is the way it is, to make the States of Jersey an employer of choice and to keep people interested in varied careers going forward.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Well said, Tristan. We would all agree with that. Minister, and your team, the time is nigh. I thank you for presenting to us today. It has been very helpful. I therefore close this meeting and look forward to seeing you soon in the future. Thank you.

[13:36]