Transcript - Quarterly Public Hearing with the Minister for Infrastructure

Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel

Quarterly Review Hearing

Witness: The Minister for Infrastructure

Tuesday, 15th February 2022

Panel:

Connétable M.K Jackson of St. Brelade (Chair) Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin

Deputy G.J. Truscott of St. Brelade

Deputy I. Gardiner of St. Helier

Witnesses:

Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour - Minister for Infrastructure

Mr. A. Scate - Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and Environment Dr. L. Magris - Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3

Mrs. L. Phillips - Senior Policy Officer

Mr. G. Forrest - Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards

Mr T. Dodd - Head of Transport, Highways and Infrastructure

Mr. T. Daniels - Head of Property Holdings

[11:34]

Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade (Chair):

Good morning, Minister, and welcome to this quarterly hearing of the Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel. We will start off by introducing ourselves. I am Constable Mike Jackson , Chair of the panel.

Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin :

Deputy Steve Luce , the Deputy of St. Martin .

Deputy G.J. Truscott of St. Brelade : Deputy Graham Truscott of St. Brelade .

Deputy I. Gardiner of St Helier: Deputy Inna Gardiner of St. Helier .

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Deputy Kevin Lewis , Minister for Infrastructure.

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and the Environment:

Andy Scate, Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and the Environment.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

Dr. Louise Magris, Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3.

Senior Policy Officer:

Louisa Phillips, Senior Policy Officer.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thank you very much. I am going to start, Louise, sorry back in your direction. The draft carbon neutral roadmap well, maybe not sustainable transport. For the benefit of those members of the public listening, can you briefly summarise, Minister, what both yours and the department's role and responsibility has been to date in relation to the draft carbon neutral roadmap, particularly in relation to your engagement with the carbon emissions reduction policies and the delivery thereof for 2022- 25?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I am a member of the carbon neutral team and it has been an interesting experience. We are not completely aligned but we heading in the same direction. If I hand over to Dr. Louise Magris who will give you the basics of what has been going on.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

Thank you, Minister. So as the Minister says, the carbon neutral roadmap is a piece of work that falls under the lead of the environment ministerial team and when developing the draft carbon neutral roadmap, a carbon neutral steering group was convened, which involved some non-executive members, some Ministers and Assistant Ministers to provide a broad range of views on the

development of the policies and the Minister for Infrastructure was an important part of that. Mainly naturally because the transport emissions of the Island, as you know, 30 per cent, are therefore carbon emission reductions from transport and are an important part of the decarbonisation process. The overlap with the S.T.P (Sustainable Transport Policy) is, of course, that some of sustainable transport is about decarbonising transport but also quite a lot of sustainable transport is not about decarbonising, it is about other things, some of which do have carbon benefit but there are plenty of other things that are involved in sustainable transport. There is an overlap there and there is a Venn diagram where they come together and the carbon neutral steering group, as the Minister said, is where the overlap of policies come together and the work on sustainable transport is work that is led by Louisa. That is also running its own timescales and we have been working over the last year on some rapid plan analysis of some particular areas as outlined in the Sustainable Transport Plan. That work is running alongside and in parallel. So the Minister being on both groups and working closing with the ministerial team, and of course Council of Ministers who ultimately sign off both pieces of work, that is where the overlap is, if that explains that for you.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Thank you.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Could I just ask, Chair, if you do not mind me butting in, Minister, you said you were not completely aligned? Can you tell us where you are not aligned?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Do you want the detail now or later on?

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Well, I have asked the question, can you tell us the areas where you are not aligned?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Basically, obviously, electrification. I do not believe that we are anywhere ready as yet. We all agree and we are heading in the same direction but I do not agree with the speed that things are intending to happen regarding the change over from petrol and diesel engines to electric.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Do you want it to happen faster, Minister?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Slower. I think it is going too fast. I do not think we are ready yet. Obviously things are very tight at the moment, we are hopefully coming out of COVID and money is very tight, things are happening in the world, money is very tight, food is getting expensive, fuel generally is very expensive and I just feel that we are running a little bit too fast.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

What you are suggesting is that the projections are unrealistic?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Yes.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Now, the Citizens' Assembly on Climate Change made 14 high-level recommendations, 7 were in relation to transport. What input have you had regarding the Government's response to the Citizens' Assembly recommendations, considering your responsibility for the sustainable transport workstream?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Louise?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

The carbon neutral steering group signed off the results of the recommendations. So you saw the recommendations report and saw within that a set of responses to those and whether there was a first stage filter of those recommendations and how they might be taken forward. That was work that was worked through with the carbon neutral steering group that the Minister was on.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

It is our understanding that you are a member of the carbon neutral steering group, can you briefly outline your involvement as part of this group to date and how many meetings have been held, and how many of those have you attended?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I have attended, I believe, all of them. So it has been very interesting, very in depth but obviously it includes not just transport, which is obviously my particular section but a few others on the Island as well, gas, oil and the way the Island is going, and the output from the carbon neutral strategy.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Considering the Sustainable Transport Policy framework is fundamental to the proposed policy, the delivery plan for the carbon neutral roadmap, how is the workstream of this policy fed into the development of the draft carbon neutral roadmap and how has appropriate alignment been ensured across the 2 workstreams?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

As we say, from the Minister's perspective that has been made clear in the carbon neutral steering group, from the officer development situation, obviously Louisa is part of the team, she leads on the sustainable transport work and she is part of the officer team that has put together the policies and been part of the development work for the carbon neutral roadmap. So Louisa has been the bridge - of course we are all aware of that work - within that work, recognising that the draft carbon neutral roadmap is about emissions purely and the sustainable transport work is about more than that. So the other part of Louisa's portfolio is looking after the whole of the Sustainable Transport Policy delivery but picking out the subsection of that that is carbon related, that is where that overlap has been, both at an officer level and a ministerial level.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

What challenges, if any, have you experienced to progressing the workstreams in tandem and how have you overcome the challenges identified? Do not mention COVID. [Laughter]

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

I am duty bound to mention COVID as of course you know. Yes, sorry to be flippant. Absolutely, obviously we have lost time because of COVID and we have fallen out of step with the 2 pieces of work because of COVID. That has been difficult. The resource required, bringing in Louisa as a new position to really take a hold of that work has been we had to recruit Louisa, get her onto the Island, she has been with us a year now and been able to work really well and to work with the I.H.E. (Infrastructure, Housing and Environment) team, because it is about delivery as much as policy development. So, of course, matters always you know, it is challenging to get it up and running. I think the 4 key pieces of work that we have done this year are the rapid plan work and there has been an update on the last years' worth of work that was also published. Louisa, it probably makes a lot more sense for you to just give us a little bit of an overlap of where we have got to his year, if the panel think that would be helpful?

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Please do.

Senior Policy Officer:

Yes, absolutely. So as Louise mentioned, we are coming to the latter stages of the rapid plan analysis that was part of the Sustainable Transport Policy commitments. We have started to release some of the reports that were published just before Christmas. We can send you them directly, if you want, after this. Where we are at now is looking to start with the engagement, especially around active travel with the Island and with the parishes to try to understand how we can start to realise what conceptual networks exist and how do we start to identify what the investment and delivery plan is to make those tangibles changes on the Island, to help improve the infrastructure to encourage and incentivise people to get out of their cars and do more walking and cycling.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Can I just interject there? Are you in discussion with LibertyBus at this stage?

Senior Policy Officer:

I work very closely with the equivalent I.H.E. officer who is responsible for the contract with LibertyBus and we do have regular dialogue with LibertyBus and that other officer around how we are looking to increase bus ridership. We are looking as part of the carbon neutral roadmap to see how we can use the investment that has been set aside or allocated in that draft at the moment to undertake some trials to see how we can look at doing different things with the buses on the Island and see whether that increases the ridership or whether we are thinking too far out of the box and taking it back down to frequencies, routes and other more recognised ways of changing the bus service, if that makes sense?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Since I was elected to the States 3 years go I have heard that we need to increase bus ridership. Would you please indicate what are the current barriers - apart from COVID and health - in Jersey to increase the ridership? Why do people not use buses?

[11:45]

Senior Policy Officer:

As part of the rapid plan work that we did, we some behavioural science insights and research and we were asking people what their barriers were to using the bus, and it is wide-ranging. I do not think anything really came as much of a shock out of that. It is about frequency, it is about the bus is not in the right place for them, it is about the convenience if they have to do multiple trips with children in the morning to do school runs and then get to work on time, weather, they do not like waiting necessarily if the weather is poor and there is no shelter or coverage for them. Very few mentioned cost, although cost to some people is a barrier. But it is largely the routes do not go where they want them to go, they do not go at the time that they would necessarily want to use them and the complexities of having children with multiple drop offs or caring responsibilities mean that a bus just is not suitable in their view currently to undertake using the bus for that journey.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

That is helpful because we also have behavioural specialists telling us the things that we knew before. When will we see an action plan to address these barriers and increase ridership?

Senior Policy Officer:

There are 2 answers to that question. The first answer is based on the carbon neutral roadmap, in the draft allocations for the next 3 years, to undertake various different trials to try and see what works, what does not, do we need to do routes that do not necessarily come into St. Helier first, do they just go up and down, left or right. For example, we are looking into what those options and possibilities are at the moment while the draft carbon neutral roadmap is going through the process. But then also what will be mentioned if we ignore the carbon neutral roadmap for a second and concentrate solely on the Sustainable Transport Policy, because they are, in effect, totally independent, the workstream within the bus rapid plan is to get not only the behavioural side research we now have, it is also we are undertaking, and it is still ongoing at the moment - it is proving slightly trickier than we thought when we first set out - reviews of the ticketing, reviews of the network itself. We will be pulling all of that together alongside the rest of the rapid plan on active travel, parking and mobility as a service to create our own sustainable transport roadmap, which will give us later on this year a timeframe for delivery including the bus trials. We are also looking at the non-decarbonised bus network development to put it altogether into one place so we have an investment and delivery plan across all of the sustainable transport rather than them just sitting in the siloes which they tend to sit in a little bit.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Do you envisage this informing significantly the next bus contracts in 2025?

Senior Policy Officer:

Absolutely, that is why we are doing this work now so that we can then inform a scope so that when we we are starting those conversations, myself and I.H.E. together, with procurement as to what we need to do now as it is not a quick process to recontract the bus service. This work is predominantly focused on getting to that point where we have a scoped bus contract which delivers for the Island based on decarbonisation but also the behaviours of people that want to use the bus.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

That led to my previous question where I asked how much work you were doing with LibertyBus because it seems to me essential we learn from what other people are doing.

Senior Policy Officer: Yes, absolutely.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Just to go back to the parking plan, which is another point I think for you as well?

Senior Policy Officer:

Yes, I can take it. Obviously the parking plan is more of the stick to the carrot within the Sustainable Transport Policy and it is a tricky one because it is not just necessarily about the price of parking, it is about the provision of parking, it is about what people want from parking, where they want parking, when they want parking as well as obviously parking being an avenue where we could raise some income to support further sustainable transport. So a bit like all the rest of the rapid plans, we have been working very hard to look at models, to try and look at different pricing structures, looking at technology that is out there, to understand how technology can help us understand the cost and provision of parking at different times of day, different lengths of stay, et cetera, just to see what else is being done out there. Then obviously there is the sight of that in terms of environmental taxes So we would be doing some research looking at workplace parking maybe around the world to see how successful they are and to whether there is opportunity for us to implement something along those lines over here, again to help sustainable transport going forward.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Minister, you are often challenged by the Constable of St. Helier who says that your parking policies deter people coming into town and shopping and it affects commerce in the town. What is your view?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, it is quite bizarre following on from the bus question, I get simultaneously criticised for having too much parking and not enough parking. We do have enough parking but it is not in the areas that people want. For instance, Sand Street, which has the A.N.P.R. (automatic number plate recognition) very popular now people have got used to the technology. Nobody gets a parking ticket because if someone is late, meets a friend, has a coffee, they go back late they just have to pay for the next slot of parking, it is not a problem. But people tend not to like Pier Road, which is up a hill, a bit further away, and there is always plenty of parking there. We do have enough parking but not where people want to park. People were quite upset because we lost one of the car parks in town for the new International Finance Centre, which was not our car park. So there are problems with parking. I do not believe to be punitive to people, if people want to some people have to have their car for various reasons. If buses were absolutely free there would still be people who would want to use their cars. I do not think we are ever going to change that.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thank you. We have mentioned investigation into mobility as a service. Are you aware of that?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Yes.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Can you just expand on that?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Do you have the detail on that, Louisa?

Senior Policy Officer:

Yes, absolutely. So mobility as a service was the fourth rapid plan. We have completed that research and that, again, was published just before Christmas. That was looking at how strategically ready Jersey was as an Island to undertake, in effect, disruptive thinking as to how people made choices around how they travel and using technology to help support those choices. Part of the work that I will be doing going forward is this mobility or sustainable transport roadmap. Excuse the terminology, I have not decided what I am going to call it yet. I will flick between the 2 until I come to a decision. Technology and the use of technology is going to be fundamental to how Jersey's transport system works in the future and it is about using the research and understanding the commercial models that we can implement or decide whether we want to be the leaders as Government to take something like mobility as a service forward. Even in doing that we are going to need do an awful lot of consultation and engagement with key stakeholders, such a businesses, Chamber of Commerce, Taxis Association, buses, LibertyBus or whoever the supplier is, because a fundamental of mobility as a service is you have a piece of technology, be it on a computer, a phone or a terminal in a building somewhere and you can book all of your travel, transport and tickets in one place at one point in time and it automatically just does it all for you. If you say where you want to go, it gives you the options, you take your pick and you can feed in information, you can push awareness messages. So you can tell them how much carbon that type of journey would take compared to if you took a different type of transport, the cost, the times, the duration and so on.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

That is what we used to call a personal travel plan.

Senior Policy Officer:

In effect but technology is doing it for you with a lot more information, a lot more kind of nudging to make people consider the options that they are deciding to take for transport and trying to get them to make the cleaner travel choices.

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and the Environment:

I was going to add, it ties in with Deputy Gardiner 's and Deputy Luce 's questions around people behaviours. People travel for different reasons for different circumstances so it starts to build upon, can we use technology to effectively match human behaviour. So sometimes it is raining and we do not want to walk or cycle, sometimes that be a bus or a car journey, it might be a car journey into town because you are doing a lot of retail shopping and you have to take some stuff home or you have to deliver the kids to school that morning or whatever it may. But a lot of our behaviours are very different. What we have to do is underpin that with using the technology if we can to enable people to make better choices or different choices, whatever is appropriate for them on that morning or that afternoon. So it is not so much having Government tell them how to travel but a lot of people want to trave differently but they just need the information to be able to make those choices. I think there is quite a lot of appetite for people to travel differently, whether that be a once a week cycle. We are not saying to everyone you have to cycle 5 days a week if you are commuting into town but it might be once a week, you might want to get the bus once a week, you may want to get a taxi, whatever it may be, but I think using technology to resell how we manage our transport behaviour is the real opportunity ahead of us.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

So in the future we will just basically ask Alexa?

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and the Environment:

It might easily be a case of thinking: "Well, do you know what, if I am going to jump in my car today it is going to take me 30 minutes but the bus is telling me it is a 15 minute journey or a 10 minute journey. I might do that instead. The weather is quite good." I think what we are saying is we are a very digitally-enabled Island. We need to be able to use our digital data to inform our behaviours more.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I do not know if you have seen this one, Chair, Track my Bus, which is excellent. You can see the buses moving in real time. You do not even need a timetable, although there is a timetable on here, but you can walk out on the road and see where your bus is coming down the road, which is excellent technology.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I just wanted to say, Andy, could we not get that package off the shelf now? If you are in London, for example, and just google you want to go from A to B a programme comes up that gives you the walking, the buses, the Tube, the ubers, the what have you.

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and the Environment:

I think the challenge is making sure we knit all of the relevant data sources together to enable that window, if you like, to an Islander - whether it is on Apple or whatever it may - getting the data into that system. It is the wiring behind the screen that is very important to get those data feeds in. But even if it is not a technology approach, it could just also be a behavioural approach in terms of having that conversation around you can cycle a day. People can make their own choice in terms of the weather or their own timescales and their own calendar as to what they are doing that day. Technology can enable them to think more like that but it can take place without technology as well. It can just be a conversation we have with Islanders about why you do not cycle a day a week, work at home a day a week.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

That is a very interesting comparison because I suspect I know how it would look in St. Helier but certainly even in London when you compare the times it is quite eye opening sometimes and we know from work we have done previously with Circles on St. Helier or how far you can walk in 5 minutes. I know people do not believe everything they read on the internet but if something comes in front of you and says you can take a cab or you take your car and it will take you 15 minutes to get there but you can walk there in 5 minutes, that in itself is enough of an incentive to say we should change our behaviour.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

I think that is absolutely right. It is interesting the Minister picked up before on the Pier Road issue, so Pier Road and Patriotic Street are bang on equal distance to Broad Street. It is exactly the same and yet perceptually it is up a hill, it makes you think differently, some people are not able, I understand that but for people who are able and want to be active it is exactly the same distance. But perceptually often people do not recognise that and I think the point about much wider access to that information and enabling people to think differently about their journey planning can have a lot of benefit quite quickly.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

As part of the active travel plan a programme of detailed route audits was to be undertaken and I understand has been currently commissioned with an expectation of completion in April 2022. Can you advise us on the progress of this and on its anticipated outcomes? I suppose we have just spoken about the tangible benefits as a result of that but are we seeing progress on that?

Senior Policy Officer:

Yes, absolutely. We had the inception meeting 2 weeks ago and I was a on call with the team yesterday to talk through some exciting opportunities that have just landed at just the right time for the Dutch Cycling Embassy to begin the programme of the delivery of this active travel investment plan project that we are doing. It is all on track. The site audits are going to be happening towards the end of March but what we are going to be trying to deliver within the current programme without making too many changes, although things might shift around a little bit, is to hold a core cycling event, an engagement event. It would have 2 strands. The first strand is more around the concept of why we want people to be cycling and walking more and what that means and what that means to the Island and individuals as well.

[12:00]

The second side is actually having that engagement with people to understand - it is a bit like the buses - what they think their barriers are to cycling and walking at the moment and we could try and do to support them to make those decisions. On top of all of that we are going to be hopefully - and I am waiting for a response to an email I sent yesterday - starting to do the consultation, engagement with the parishes around what we have done so far. So explaining all the stage 1 work that we have done, explain the data streams and how that has led us to where we are now with stage 2 and getting the parishes' feedback on the areas within the first stage of the active travel work that is relevant to them, what their thoughts, ideas are to feed into our programme for the rest of stage 2. So we are trying to puzzle piece it altogether, make sure we have everybody involved, at the right time in the programme. If we get it too early it is not going to be as helpful and if we get it too late then it is certainly not helpful. So we are just trying to manage diaries and expectations to get it at the right time for people to be linked to the process, to help us complete it when we need to.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

In what form will the parish consultation and engagement take place? In what form?

Senior Policy Officer:

That was what the discussion was about yesterday. We are going to be hopefully going and speaking to all the roads committees if possible, do a standard presentation on the previous work and then make it more

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Roads committees and apart from road committees I am thinking about St. Helier and the 3,000, I think this is a bit different

Senior Policy Officer:

Yes, we are having different levels so we are also going to the Comité des Connétable s as well to do a briefing with them and then for the likes of St. Helier , stage 1 of the active travel work was identifying a specific St. Helier mobility study which is more appropriate for St. Helier because of the size, we could not do one in each of those regional parishes. So the Island-wide one is being treated a little bit separate and then we have a specific St. Helier mobility study as well.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Just going back to the trials, it is our understanding that through funding made available from the Climate Emergency Fund the trials will be implemented between 2022 and 2024 as part of the bus development plan you mentioned. Can you just outline the types of trials that will be implemented? Will the trials reflect the elements proposed by the Citizens' Assembly recommendation, such as including more bus routes, more frequent service, electric mini buses, fares, journeys designed to Islanders needs, is that where you are going?

Senior Policy Officer:

Yes, so we are in discussions myself and I.H.E currently around what we can do as part of these trails and there are a few options on the table. Part of the work that was originally done within the bus development rapid plan was to create some network planning guidelines, so if we wanted to look to put on different routes on there these network planning guidelines would help identify where that route would positively benefit the most people. We want to get more people on buses and putting a route where there is nobody is counterintuitive to that. So we are taking the opportunity for these trials to in effect test those network planning guidelines but then we are also doing a few different ways of thinking. So we are looking at the opportunity to potentially put fast routes in that do not go to St. Helier , they link different parishes together where there are heavy population centres but they do not necessarily have a direct bus link. We are looking at potentials of increasing frequency on routes where the frequency is not there but we know people potentially would use that bus if there was more frequency. We are also potentially looking at how we could utilise the resources that are currently used for the school bus network that then head back into town empty but do not commonly pick up passengers as to whether we could utilise those resources, the bus and a driver, at busier times of the day to increase the frequency of routes where those buses are travelling anyway. So lots of options on the table, all quite expensive to do. We cannot do them all but because we have the funding going forward for the next 3 years we will try and cut as much of that as possible to ensure we are testing what we can do with the buses, so when we come to having a new contract we can implement some of the new ideas as to how the bus service should run.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Would that involve also the use of new bus routes as in bus lanes or closing some roads to buses only?

Senior Policy Officer:

We are discussing all options. We do not have that level of detail right now, these conversations have only just been starting over the last couple of weeks.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have 2 in the pipeline as you are aware of. The first one, the first bus lane we have opened which runs in front of the Pomme d'Or. At peak times that can save between 8 and 10 minutes per bus, which speeds up the whole system. As the bus comes out of the bus station normally it will have to turn left, go up to the junction, take another left up to the roundabout, left again, come down the slope going east, filter with the traffic there and go off through the tunnel. During rush hour that can be quite problematic. With the new route, which is a purpose bus lane in front of the Pomme d'Or Hotel, that cuts off between 8 and 10 minutes in the busy times.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Where are the new routes, Minister? We know about the existing routes.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

There is one in the planning to go west, which will run along the esplanade and the traffic lights will be augmented up the other end, so there will be a mid-section between the 2 flows of traffic, which will give a green light to a bus to cut across and get a head start on the traffic going west.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

We spoke about the bus routes, can you just give us an update on the implementation progress to the introduction of the new bus pass scheme for under 18s, which was accepted by the Assembly, the amendment to the Government Plan?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, it is well within the timescale described in the proposition but I do not know why people thought it could be done within 2 weeks over the Christmas period because a lot of work needed to be done with new cards to be printed, obviously. Students who have existing cards would need to be credited. There is a lot of work to be done before a new process can be brought in. But it should be within the first 2 months.

Senior Policy Officer:

I have been a little bit out of the loop on this, it is an I.H.E. matter, I am afraid.

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and the Environment:

Yes, we are on track to follow the proposition effectively to bring a card in for under 18s. So, yes, it is just a technology solution that sits behind that just to make sure that is working and ready to be rolled out. Just the practicalities of getting it done.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : What is the timeline for that?

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and the Environment: End of quarter 1 of this year, I believe.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

End of quarter 1 is the maximum but we should be before that.

The Deputy of St. Martin : Will that be tap on and tap off?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I believe it is going to be that one, yes. Obviously with photo I.D. (identification) on the other side.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Yes, but what I means is they will have to use they will not be allowed on it will not be just showing the card, it will be tapping on to a machine that shows they are travelling?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, yes. It has to be electronically recorded, yes.

The Deputy of St. Martin : Yes, okay.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Will there monitoring of that in some shape or form? The uptake?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Yes.

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and the Environment:

I think the benefits of having the existing cards amened effectively, if I could use that word, to take this decision in gives us a lot of data in terms of under 18 bus users really. It should increase under 18 bus usage we would expect. Obviously that proportion of the population uses the bus quite a lot anyway - certainly under 17s - until they get mobile themselves on 2 or 4 wheels. Yes, so certainly that data is rich for us to see who is travelling where.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is not just about the school buses, obviously that is going to be a major component, but it is under 18s which people could be going to work, could be going on a social visit, wherever, but even among the school students they do not just use the school bus service, they transition between the regular service to the school bus service. So the technology has to be spot on. Plus we are not quite sure yet, although we are ready to go very soon, we may need more drivers, we may need more buses, depending on the uptake.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Yes, so in fact the benefit to the department is going to be the information that comes back and the benefit to the travelling public is the less cost?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Yes.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

We will have data to compare buses that should be full enough for the scheme introduction?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The data will be across the board, yes. Obviously the loss of revenue from the normal system and how many people are using it, it is all going to be recorded so we know exactly what is what and where the maximum demand is.

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and the Environment:

At the moment we will have data from the school bus service and school bus users, probably not so much users of the conventional bus service because we do not gauge people's age in that regard. But, yes, it will be interesting to see what dataset we get back and what we can we just need to make sure we are comparing like with like?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Louisa touched earlier on on behaviour changes as well we are trying to implement. A lot of people, maybe both partners working, coming to town anyway, they tend to bring the children with them or students with them, maybe drop one off at Victoria College, De La Salle or Hautlieu and loop around and drop the others off, which does cause a traffic problem but there is obviously a delay to the student if they have to change buses. Sometimes it can take up to three-quarters of an hour to an hour to get to school. Plus often as not the parents treat it as family time because they can talk to their children while driving to school.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Going back to back to parking, part of the parking plan workstream involved a series of parking charges and pricing structures which are to be recommended through the polluter pays principle to encourage sustainable transport. Can you briefly just outline the anticipated structure for it?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

I will go with this one. You rightly pick up that the Government Plan outlines the fact that there is working being done in this space and there are lots of different things to consider around parking. It is all still policy under development. There is quite a lot of work that has been done in the background but that work has not been taken through for political decision yet to then go out to consultation. Its route would be the environmental with the Minister for Infrastructure, through the environmental taxes subgroup of the Revenue Policy Development Board and then to go forward as proposals that would go out for consultation and agreement wherever necessary. So if it were things that would be on the vires of the Minister for Infrastructure then it might be a States decision or it might just be a charging structure that would be able to be made by the Minister for Infrastructure. The timeline for that is not going to be before this election. We are going to hit purdah before we have those proposals that can come to an Assembly. That will be for the new Assembly to look at but you are absolutely right, the work that has been looked at is to consider fair pricing. The Minister picked up before around, for example, the town economy perhaps relying on some form of fair shopper parking versus commuter parking. That is the sort of thing that is being looked at in differential parking and a lot of that depends on technology solutions for carparks and parking spaces. I think a thing to perhaps step back and recognise in this conversation is what we talked about before. There are lots of amazing ideas out there, there are lots of people who are much further ahead of Jersey in their sustainable and active travel strategies. It is absolutely true that Jersey has a lot to do and can move in that space. The reality is the funding is not there at the moment so a better bus service in terms of more routes, more frequency may well cost more when we recontract the bus service, which might it will then be an Assembly decision on how that is funded. Does the Assembly believe that they want to put more into the bus service compared to previously? I am not saying that is necessarily the outcome but it is just recognising that none of these solutions are likely to come at a zero cost. As the Government Plan says, environmental taxes, as we call them, or charges, or levies, and probably better parking structures are the thing that will ultimately fund these advancements in the more sustainable transport space, and give people real alternatives. There are many people now whose only alternative or they believe is their best option is to come into town by car as a commuter. We would like in the future for them to have far better options.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

But when we come to parking charges, where we are encouraging everybody into electric cars and, of course, we want to encourage that, we do not want to discourage that. We want to discourage fossil fuel cars. How is that going to be considered?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

Absolutely right. The joy of that, as of course you know, is that as soon as people are not buying petrol or diesel they are not paying fuel duty and some of that money goes into the Climate Emergency Fund and that is why you asked the question. You are absolutely right.

[12:15]

The Government Plan refers to looking at road user charges and your point about so if you look at the hierarchy of transport, yes, an electric car is better from a carbon perspective compared to a petrol or diesel car but, of course, it is still a car on the road. It is still potentially an accident, it is still taking up road space, it still affects the economy and needs parking somewhere. So we recognise that, yes, an electric car is a better step but would a better step not be for that person to hopefully to be able to make that journey with a great bus service or with an active travel alternative. That is about rethinking the whole system and also why the policies that are proposed in the draft carbon neutral roadmap are about not just finding grants for electric vehicles as in car it might be an electric motorbike, it might be an electric moped. There are issues around personal transports, segways, electric segways, there are real safety issues that need to be thought through there and the roads law will have to learn to accommodate and we have to build our roads to provide safety for people using those sorts of transport choices. But they may become more prevalent in the future if we can build the right infrastructure for them.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Moving to buses, it is our understanding that the Government will be supporting LibertyBus to use second generation renewal diesel in its 6 double decker buses starting in 2022. Has this started and, if not, when will a transition to the renewal fuel commence?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I believe it has on the double-deckers?

Senior Policy Officer:

Yes, so all funding is in place for that, it is all going through the process now. LibertyBus are working with their contracted fuel supplier to provide them with the second generation renewal diesel. There are a few logistical things that they need to sort out, they need to get a new tank, which is being provided free of charge for them, and then once that has all been fed into their existing fuel system, the fuel will be in their 6 double-deckers for the foreseeable future, going up to the end of 2024. End of the contract.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Some of the other buses are diesel buses, Enviro 6 engines, Mercedes, so they would need permission from Mercedes to use alternate fuels because you could invalidate the insurance. There is nothing wrong with the fuel, it is just a formality.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : What about the rest of the fleet?

Senior Policy Officer:

Yes, so as the Minister has just said, Mercedes are quite risk averse to allowing people to use this fuel in their engines of a particular age and type. I believe LibertyBus are in discussions with Mercedes to try and get that tick in the box to let them into the rest of the fleet, then it is going to come down to how that gets funded, because it is not a cheap fuel, it is a transition fuel and with the ridership levels as they are in the buses if we can increase the ridership we increase the cash flow into the bus system and then things like this become more affordable for the buses and the bus contracts.

Deputy G.J. Truscott:

I was just curious, we know roughly what the fuel usage is per annum, what is the additional cost for using this type of fuel going forward?

Senior Policy Officer:

Just in the 6 double-deckers - correct if I am wrong, my memory is not great - I think it was around 240 per year.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

We will double check for you but, yes, it is about a third extra because it is about 50p a litre. So to pick up that point because this is, as Louisa says, a transition fuel, we cannot commit to it for ever because otherwise we are just carrying a subsidised cost for ever and that is not good practice. So

this is a time limited piece of policy. The hope would be that supply and demand energy markets start to settle so at the moment the fuel is expensive because the supply and demand are not in balance and we know that more refineries are being built. We have to be very careful to ensure that the biofuels that we might choose to use locally have good ethical backgrounds and do not have uncertificated palm oil in them. That is an even smaller part of the niche market. In order to go forward and have the market with more of this product in we probably need to do more work to make sure that the markets can deliver the fuel for Jersey that we would want. There are lesser biofuels out there but they have a higher palm oil content and we do not want to use those, so you recognise the problem. Of course you recognise that the main constituent of second generation renewal diesel is waste products that come from waste refineries. That is a good use of a closed loop alternative. At the moment the markets are growing and that is why we are in a bit of a trial place rather than a full-time commitment.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Growing and changing. I was in Northern Ireland a few weeks ago and their double-deckers are hydrogen. It was an expensive set up but perfectly good ride and fantastic service. That may be a way to go for the heavier vehicles. Electrification of the smaller vehicles, possibly hydrogen for more industrial vehicles.

Senior Policy Officer:

It was 160,000 for the 6 double-deckers per year.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Thank you.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Has the conversation started with LibertyBus for their new contract for hydrogen and electric buses?

Senior Policy Officer:

I do not believe I.H.E. are in conversation with LibertyBus about the new contract.

The Minister for Infrastructure: It is early days.

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and the Environment:

Certainly I know Liberty have trialled electric buses and there is still an ongoing discussion around whether that is a solution for the Island or not, but I do think as we move forward into the new contract we are going to need flexible wording in there to allow better flexibility. As technology changes we would expect to see some of the vehicle fleet that we used to changed with it when it becomes viable to do so. Whether it be hydrogen, whether it be different fuels, whether it be electric vehicles, they probably all play a part somewhere but they have to be viable and deliverable at the moment.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Does LibertyBus, in any other areas they operate, use electric buses?

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and the Environment: I do not know the answer to that but

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Hackney Transport Company in parts of Bristol. I think they have some electric vehicles. But they are a very forward-thinking company and they are more than happy to experiment and try different things out with routes. They have had 2 electric buses, one electric double-decker, that was on loan. It was quite an old one and, sadly, one of the cells was slightly defective on that one. We have had a smaller singer decker bus over in Jersey and in Guernsey as an experiment but the bus itself was very good but I do not think they were too happy with particular layouts as the entrance was behind the driver, as it were, which meant the driver would have to pivot. I think there was some problem with that. They are more than happy to look at new technologies.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

With the carbon neutral roadmap reference is made to the Sustainable Transport Policy as well as the roadmap, which is due to be published in 2022. Just to be clear on this, can you just outline how these relate to each other and when in 2022 the roadmap will be published?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

I am happy to take that one. You know what I am going to say. I frequently say it. It is about resources and prioritisation. So we fully recognise that the work is there that needs to wrap up all the outputs, you have heard of the rapid analysis plan, there is an awful lot to unpick in our transport system, there is an awful lot to then turn that into recommendations and move that into things like recontracting the bus service with LibertyBus or whoever else. It will be a procurement exercise. There is a large piece of ongoing work to happen there. The hope is that by the end of this year is what we would hope for. Naturally we have the break of purdah in that to break the ongoing ministerial set of decisions because there will be a period where we do not have a Minister known to us, but that does not mean the work behind the scenes cannot happen. The thing to say about the roadmap as well is it will be very much like the carbon neutral roadmap in that it is a framework for decision-making. The Minister, for example, gave the option before of hydrogen. There is a big question about whether hydrogen will ever be commercially available for Jersey and be the right choice for us. It may well be, I do not think we know the answer to that yet. The roadmap approach allows us to set a framework for decision-making that does not close doors, allows us to be flexible at the right time to make decisions but also recognise when some decisions are not right for us. What we have done in the roadmap, the carbon neutral roadmap, we have seen is staged decision- making quite a lot in the next term of Government but some thereafter contingent on pieces of work that will give us further ability to make those decisions or for future Assemblies to make those decisions. The sustainable transport roadmap will be a bit the same.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thank you. Going to the Citizens' Assembly recommendations and transport policies, the delivery plan for 2022-2025, you accepted the Citizens' Assembly recommendations, can you briefly outline the current available new carbon reduction technologies for transport that the Government proposes to introduce and financially support in 2022-2025 should the carbon neutral roadmap be adopted?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3: Sorry, Minister, unless you want to take this one?

The Minister for Infrastructure: No, no.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

I am not exactly sure which bit you are referring to. Is this about the incentivisation policy?

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

This is the financial support currently available for new reduction technologies for all modes of transport immediately and all Jersey appropriate future transport carbon reduction technologies that will also be introduced immediately as they become viable.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

That was the Citizens' Assembly recommendation? The response to that was, yes, we believe that absolutely there should be an incentive made available for electric vehicles so that is translated into the transport policy in the roadmap sorry, the vehicle incentive policy in the roadmap, which is the one that we just discussed, which was about an incentive for the purchase of an electric vehicle, be it a car or be it another version of an electric transport mechanism. So you can see that the Citizens' Assembly were very keen to see that happen immediately. That has been recognised and understood by the carbon neutral steering group, they have turned that into a policy that suggest a grant or an incentive. We have heard through the consultation process a lot of feedback on what was proposed in the policy, which was a proportion of the cost of the vehicle would be reimbursed and how that might happen, so that was a proposal as a policy. Where we are now, Ministers are considering the consultation response, their original proposal and reworking that into a proposal that will go forward in the final carbon neutral roadmap. So we are in that bit of examining the consultation responses and what we have heard from stakeholders.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Do I take from that it is the discount on the purchase of a new vehicle?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

Yes, it is policy TR1 in the transport section of the draft carbon neutral roadmap.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Louise, you use the phrase "electric version of a transport mechanism", can you explain what that means? Is it something other than cars then?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

Yes, it could be an electric moped, it could be an electric motorbike, something like that.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

So, Minister, you are going to subsidise electric scooters, are you?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Scooters? We are talking about the old Vespa type scooters, which some of our fellow Deputies have, which are the sit down version. The other ones, the e-scooters, are not currently legal at the moment. That is policy under development. We do not have the final detail on that yet.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

The principle of subsidising anything electric that constitutes an alternative, does it have to have an internal combustion engine to qualify as an alternative?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

I think what you are asking about there is hybrids?

The Deputy of St. Martin :

No, I am just trying to think that the electric version of a transport mechanism

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3: Sorry, that probably was not a great word.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I am trying to work out whether that would mean that you would, for example, get a subsidy on the electric version of something that in a previous life did not have

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

Please discount what I said, what I mean is a low carbon transportation mechanism. That is what I really mean. All I am trying to say is it is not just an electric car.

The Minister for Infrastructure: It sounds impressive to me.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

Sorry, it has been a long morning, has it not? I apologise.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Low carbon transport mechanism. I will make a note of that.

Deputy G.J. Truscott:

Regarding subsidies, and I am a great believer in making what fund we do have go as far as possible, including obviously taxpayers' money, what thought has been given to means testing going forward because really we should not be subsidising people who can well afford to buy an electric vehicle?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

That is a very good point. Part of the carbon neutral strategy that was approved by the States, you remember there was fifth principle introduced by the Deputy Morel amendment that was about not reducing income inequality, that also speaks to the same space that you are talking about, which is making sure that we target grants appropriate. It is a tricky one because, as you know, means testing is very difficult, particularly if was for something like a vehicle purchase, someone would turn up wanting to buy a vehicle and then they are asked to provide information about how much they earn and what their income status is. That is pretty tricky. As part of the programme design, which would be the next stage of the principle of the policies that you are seeing in the roadmap, is we are trying to look at a way that we might be able to work within the markets to ensure that everyone has access to the grants that could pay for the vehicle upfront. Now, your point, Deputy , is absolutely right, if you have more income you will likely be able to buy a new car and then get the maximum grant. One of the things that has come out of the consultation that Ministers are considering at the moment is around how you might play that into the second-hand market. At the moment we are saying that the vehicle has to be new to Jersey but it does not have to be a new vehicle. Now, if there was a way of developing local second-hand markets and importation of vehicles that were not of full cost price but great quality vehicles that are totally appropriate for Jersey but not at full price, you start to allow people to take advantage at a lower capital investment and get the grant.

[12:30]

Those are the sorts of things we are trying to unpick through the consultation process. I am sure you recognise it is not easy to get perfect. That is also why the policy does not just make it about cars because obviously if it is only about cars then it is only if you can afford a car can you get the grant, whereas a second-hand electric moped would be far more accessible for lots of people who are on a lower income. That is where we are trying to go. It is certainly true that distributional impact assessment, which is work we have done on all of the policies as proposed, is helping us guide where those inequalities might lie. Sometimes you have carbon policies that are about carbon. They must not make social policies worse but they do not necessarily improve you cannot mend income inequality through some carbon policies, if you see what I mean, but what you must not do is make it worse. What we are doing is going through our policies to be absolutely clear where those lines are and then it will be a political decision as to whether you feel that that line has been drawn in the right place or not.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

What we have done as well is obviously parking discounts for electric cars to try to encourage that. Plus we have done 2 tranches of subsidies on electric bikes.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Minister, you mentioned e-scooters that are currently not legal in Jersey. It has been raised by parishioners that teenagers and adults that would like to commute to work in St. Helier would like to use this transport. I know it is not legal. What are you doing around this?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

There are experiments going on in the U.K. (United Kingdom) that we are monitoring very closely. Private e-bikes are illegal throughout the U.K. They do have some experiments going on in certain boroughs regarding the Bird rental scooters but they are geo-fenced, which means they can only go in certain areas and if they stray outside of that area or into parks or on pavements even the vehicle will shut down immediately. That is something that is still going on at the moment so we are watching that very carefully. There are quite a few privately owned e-scooters in the U.K. and in Jersey which are illegal. I believe Westminster police are confiscating some of them or giving people warnings but over here they are illegal because they do not conform to constructing use with D.V.S. (Driver and Vehicle Standards), they can get up to a fair speed and obviously there is no test involved, people are not wearing helmets, people are riding them on the pavements and they are very dangerous. There are people in the U.K. that have been killed on them. If you google e-scooter accidents on YouTube you will see some real horror stories. We are trying to keep abreast of changing technology and there is all sorts of electrification coming out but personally I find it quite scary. People are using them and they are illegal.

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and the Environment:

They pose a real challenge in terms of the consumer pressure to use them. There is a big consumer demand.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

There is a big consumer demand.

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and the Environment:

Then where people find themselves on the highway with them in terms of a 20 tonne lorry or something next to them, that sort of thing. I think going back to our conversation earlier around transport choices, if people are only looking to travel a short distance we would still be advocating that half a mile to a mile journey is by foot. Do that small journey by foot or by another form of transport. If you want to travel 6 miles on e-scooter actually it is probably better for you to get on a bus. It drives that same conversation as to choice the right vehicle for the right journey. The biggest challenge for the e-scooters is certainly there are lot of cities around Europe where you can hire them. There are lots of trouble in the public realm so just left all over the place literally, but also trying to manage them on the road network so you do not find yourself next to a vehicle you do not want to be squashed by, so that is the real challenge.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I will move on to green fuel vouchers now. If the Citizens' Assembly recommended them, that was not accepted but it was under active consideration as part of the development of incentives. Who knows about green fuel vouchers?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

The way we interpreted that policy and took it forward, or the carbon neutral steering group did, was to look at the biofuel subsidy. Rather than a voucher system they are proposing a subsidy for biofuel and the electric vehicle incentive, so that is how that was taken through the process. It is not to say that any of the proposals that the Citizens' Assembly that did not in this iteration come in the first phase of the carbon neutral roadmap. That is not to say they are not good ideas and they might well develop into something in the future. It is just the first phase is the first 4l years as described.

We spoke about mobility and the recommendation made to source electric minibuses and introduce the bus mobility app. That was under active consideration as part of the bus service development plan and mobility service framework plan as part of the sustainable transport policy. What is the timeline for consideration of this workstream?

Senior Policy Officer:

I believe I am right in saying, I.H.E. and the policy officers responsible for buses are consistently looking to see where different vehicle types and vehicle technology is emerging that would be suitable for use on the Island, and I know they did a quick hop over to London to look at a different type of smaller bus that was electric, just to try to understand how technology is moving, because it is moving quite fast. They are trying to keep abreast of that so part of the discussions and negotiations within the bus contract will have an element of different types of vehicles and what the opportunities are for buses that do not look like buses we have now. That could be smaller buses, narrower buses, electric buses; we just need to follow the technology and the lead-in times for having that technology manufactured, if necessary, to come and use on the Island when available.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Recommendation 2 was: "an immediate and just transition to low-carbon transport by 2030 that ensures financial support for both low-income households and small businesses" and that was accepted. The Assembly recommended banning the registration of new petrol and diesel vehicles, personal and commercial, from 2025, as well as the inclusion of a scrappage scheme for diesel and petrol vehicles with particular emphasis on the higher polluting vehicles. Although this recommendation was initially under active consideration, it is our understanding that the draft carbon neutral roadmap proposes policies that reflects the recommendation through policy T.R.5, the end of importation and registration of petrol and diesel vehicles that are new to the Island in 2030, as well as in policy TR2, vehicle scrappage incentives. Considering this recommendation, that is quite fundamental and will make people sit up and notice, it was recommended to implement the ban by 2025. What is the rationale and supporting evidence for proposing to end the importation and registration of these vehicles in 2030 instead?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

I am sure the Minister would like to take that as a political call.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I will refer to my answer to Deputy Luce earlier on that it is far too ambitious. We are nowhere near ready for it and I do not believe we should lead the world because we do not have the money. We take the technology when it comes along and we utilise it. I think it is running before we can walk.

I believe the U.K. Prime Minister has extended hybrids to 2035 before they are phased out. I have always believed we should be in step with the U.K. if not just maybe marginally ahead, so we do not become a dumping ground for any vehicles they cannot sell in the U.K., but I do not believe we should be this far ahead, even if it were possible.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

With regard to the scrappage scheme, funding for a total of 500 old vehicles has been allocated for 2022-2025. How has that number been identified as appropriate to meet the policy objectives and how will the uptake of the incentive be encouraged?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

As you can imagine, piecing the policies together is about the available funding you have in the first tranche, which is only £23 million, and where we think it might have impact. We did a short analysis of the number of oldest vehicles on the road that you would get the best bang for buck to get them off the road, and looked at where we felt the emissions modelling told us the policies would be best directed. Electric vehicle swappage schemes, people into buses gives it to you more quickly than getting the odd vehicle off the road. We made an assessment of the number of vehicles we thought we could get off the road, which is about 1,000, that contributed to the emissions savings in a balanced way. I would not say it is an art as a science, but there is a balance you make. You could throw all the money at the scrappage scheme or you could throw very little at it. We put that out there as our policy. You will know from looking at the consultation feedback that this has not been a particularly powerful policy in terms of consultation responses. People have felt that £500 is not enough to make them scrap, even with a new vehicle incentive to help them purchase a new vehicle if that vehicle was available. Because we know there are quite a lot of commercial vehicles that are not yet available for electrification, those are some of the vehicles you might want to get off the road, the high-mileage commercial vehicles that are very old. We are taking that into account and Ministers are considering that particular policy in their revamp of the carbon neutral roadmap. That is a policy under development but one that has caused us a lot of thinking the first time around, trying to piece how it might work with other policies and whether it would be effective in doing so. Is it the best use of money in the first place?

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Going to the proposed policy position TR1, which aims to speed up the adoption of electric vehicles with zero emissions being the ideal position, by 2050, and proposes the use of second-generation renewable diesel, policy TR3, where no alternative is available for road transport, particularly heavy goods vehicles. Considering the adoption of electric vehicles is likely to take time, we have discussed that, and domestic diesel and petrol vehicles will still be used on the Island, what consideration has been given to proposing a policy to mandate for low-emission petrol or diesel

alternatives for domestic vehicles in the interim? Fuels such as E10, for instance, and B7 for diesels, to allow this immediate carbon reduction where those vehicles will still be used for the next few years. That has to be an interim position if we feel we are not going to achieve what is proposed. Would you agree?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

I would agree. That is absolutely right and I think where we are using transition fuels, we must make sure they are as low-carbon as possible. There are issues around the use of E10 locally. We have received some feedback, although feedback in this area differs so there is some unpicking to do before the final carbon neutral roadmap. It is about the distribution networks having, I believe, the right kind of dispensing equipment. If you use E10 and you blend E10 locally, you need blending services and you need to put it on forecourts that can take E10. A policy might be, as it is in the U.K., to mandate E10 but you would still have some of the old fuel available for vehicles that could not take E10. That is quite a big change-over and a capital cost for the distribution petrol stations because they must change their equipment. It is entirely possible to do it. There is not a clear position on it in the draft carbon neutral roadmap as it is but I think that is something we have picked up from consultation that Ministers need to revisit and they are doing so.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Have you looked at policies in other jurisdictions that may have mandated for E10 and other ethanol fuel blends and have demonstrated any success in this regard?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

That is absolutely right. There are places that do it and it does work. Those places have rolled out the capital infrastructure earlier. For us, as I understand it, it would mean bringing in blended or having a blending station, which has land use impacts down at La Collette. That is not to say that could not happen. It would mean we would have to make sure the distributors, retailers and importers are in a position to get that fuel in and send it through the networks. I know that some already can because they buy pre-blended fuel. It comes in and can be sent out. For those that use the La Collette fuel station, there are some logistical issues. That is not to say it cannot happen but it cannot happen immediately and we have to take into account the ability of the industry to respond. That is one we are working up a bit further because, I take your point completely, it is not something we are clear enough on.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Minister, the situation Louise has just described, carrot and stick, are we not waiting for the industry? Should you not tell the industry rather than waiting for them?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is very difficult to tell the industry because of the size of the Island. We are 9 miles by 5 miles. It is very difficult to go along those lines. The industry as a whole in the U.K. and Europe is changing very fast. If you want to buy a car in the not-too-distant future, it will be electric because nothing else will be available. There will be a filter down so I do not see the point in pressurising people to change before the event.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

You do not want people to use an interim fuel. That is what I am talking about. Will you be telling the industry what to do over interim fuels?

[12:45]

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Interim fuels are coming in. There are a few issues with E7 and E10, but it is something we encourage but do not dictate to the industry.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

We do not seem to be moving very fast in either of those 2 types of fuel, though, Minister. This is the point I am getting at.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

This is what is happening at the moment. This is the situation. Can you give an update on E10?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

It is as I just described. We are not clear in the policy. We accept that criticism. The stakeholder feedback we have had has been really valuable in helping us think that through and perhaps Ministers will want to take a clearer approach in the future.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Developing interim policies.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3: Yes.

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

The other thing we can show as Government is how we are doing transport ourselves within our own fleet. Within I.H.E. we have a large range of various vehicles. This year we are looking to electrify or move all our pool vehicles, cars, into E.V.s this year. You mentioned other types of vehicles earlier but we currently have a 9-person electric minibus that I have been in this morning. For all intents and purposes, it is the normal minibus but how we are using that and trying to show other companies in the Island how they can electrify their fleets will be important for Government to lead by doing as well.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

To lead on from that, the draft roadmap proposes incentives and disincentives for speeding up the adoption of electric vehicles and the uptake of electric vehicles will heavily depend on the ability to enhance the roll-out of the required infrastructure and technology across the Island, such as charging facilities to support the policy position as outlined in TR1. What consideration has been given for ensuring timely progression of that particular workstream and ensuring timely delivery of the policy objectives in the uptake of incentives or disincentives? It is our understanding that J.E.C. (Jersey Electric Company) will assist with electric vehicle charging infrastructure. Can you outline what their level of involvement might be?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have at least 2 charging points in all our multi-storeys. Some have 4. I think Pier Road has about 10 charging points now. We encourage a lot of parishes to put in their own charging points. It is not a problem for people who have their own garages or driveways to charge up their vehicles, but a lot of people live in apartments and have to park in the street. It is obviously a trickier process. The team are talking to Jersey Electric Company on this matter. There is obviously considerable work to do. Even if we tapped into street lights, it needs infrastructure because you would have to bury all the cables, there would have to be charging units at the side of the streets and it would be quite in depth, so we would have to tear up quite a few streets. They have tried certain sections in the West of England at the moment I am aware of, but it is early days yet. How have the talks gone with J.E.C.?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

That is absolutely right. There is a big infrastructure challenge and we cannot shy away from that, and Jersey Electricity fully recognise it.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

You only have to look at Sand Street with 4 spaces. What is the capacity there; 400, so 1 per cent is not great, is it?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As I say, at Pier Road it is 10, but we are obviously limited by capacity because J.E.C. do their best but if the capacity is not there, we cannot use it, unless we start shutting down the lifts to use that capacity.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Are you saying we do not have enough capacity on the Island to charge electric vehicles?

The Minister for Infrastructure: No, I did not say that.

The Deputy of St. Martin : What did you say?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I am talking about cables within the car parks.

The Deputy of St. Martin : What is the problem?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The capacity on the cable, electricity capacity within the car park.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

So, the cables need to be replaced.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Yes.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Surely, we cannot allow cable replacement to hold back carbon reduction because we want to charge electric vehicles.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As we get new cables in, J.E.C. are putting in more charging points.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Is this a J.E.C. issue or an infrastructure issue?

It is predominantly J.E.C. because they have to go back to their main source. I am not an electrician.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Are the J.E.C. moving fast enough, then, Minister?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Everybody can always move faster but it is capacity. We had a big problem at Pier Road. They put in a very large main for a spare and that is keeping 10 chargers going, but there is a capacity problem.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

It sounds to me as though it is a question of the reinforcement of the mains, which is being undertaken throughout the Island. In terms of planning, is that considered as part of the planning process that charging points be put in new property, new commercial premises?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It should be but they are going down the other route now of bike racks, et cetera. Charging a bike is a bit different to charging a car.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

The implication on the J.E.C. network is not insignificant, as you say, for a car park where there may be a number of spaces and the implications of reinforcing that network is not inconsiderable.

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

I think the work is showing we need to have a wide-ranging conversation, which we are, with J.E.C. in terms of charging points at homes and the intended timeline is to put charging points in as well as where the vehicles are during the day, whether it be in a works car park or a public car park or on the street. We are having conversations about where is the best mix of charging points, to map where the vehicles are. A vehicle spends a lot of its time on someone's driveway or in a garage, for instance, so is it more appropriate to have charging points there and just charge once a week or do we need more charging points in our public car parks, especially if we are incentivising different uses of those public car parks for charging? I would advocate from a personal perspective more at home charging because that gives you your charge for the day, plugging in again overnight.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

If you are lucky enough to have your own home but if you live in an apartment, things are a bit trickier. With hybrid vehicles you get the best of both worlds.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

In Central London they have charging points on street parking at the lampposts, so how difficult is it to introduce the same technology in Jersey?

Senior Policy Officer:

There is a challenge over using lampposts for charging in Jersey due mainly to the position of the lampposts on the pavement. It would create accessibility issues.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Are all our lampposts not next to

Senior Policy Officer:

No, they are not. We have been doing exactly that. We are in conversation with J.E.C. at the moment, looking at the opportunities for utilising some road space for charging and lampposts is one of those conversations that is important but it is not as simple as using the lampposts because of the positioning of the lampposts where they are on those streets where you would probably want to find something.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

You would end up with another stanchion on the road.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Can I go back to the Minister on this cabling? Minister, I want to be clear, if this is a J.E.C. issue, someone needs to talk to them but you are saying you have to put a new cable in to Pier Road car park for 10 chargers. But if 10 individual people in a road or lane decide they want to put in individual chargers in their houses, are you saying J.E.C. would not have power to do that?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

No, but this was specific to the chargers. There is the whole car park.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

It would depend on the network and I am thinking of the particular situation in St. Aubins at the moment where the network needs reinforcing. It is more towards cooking in hotels than cars but it is the same story. The message is we would be interested to know what conversations are going on with J.E.C. as to how particularly the car parks can be provided for.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

If there is capacity there, we would be more than happy to do it.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Going to incentives, do you envisage incentivising either businesses or local householders towards putting in charging facilities?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We do not have the funds at the moment.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

The charging issue is quite difficult. It is multiple. You are right in the points you both raised. There are some issues around which network is better placed to serve certain parts of the Island compared to others so there is that overlaying jigsaw on it. It is also about understanding what stops people being able to charge a vehicle. One policy that was looked at was a charging incentive and is it really the few hundred pounds it costs you to get a fast charger in your home if you are lucky enough to have it in your home, that would stop you having an electric vehicle? The answer is that is probably not what is stopping you. What is stopping you is the cost of the whole vehicle. You could propose policies that spend money on that. I am sure people would uptake it, but is that the best use of the money? At the moment the incentive is towards the vehicle. What probably is helpful for people, and we recognise the move to electrification, which is where we are looking at a lot of our decarbonisation, has to be helped with an education programme. For example, there are a lot of myths around electric vehicles, like "I have to have a fast charger to charge my car overnight", which you do not necessarily if you can just plug into a plug and you are lucky enough to be able to do that. "A fast charger will cost £2,000." It does not. You can buy one and get a local electrician to put it in. There are a lot of myths that understandably people do not know the answers to and feel that might be a barrier to uptake new technology for them. Part of the electrification move is about network capacity, the availability of electricity in the right bits of the Island to make a sensible roll- out, because there are some bits that will be harder than others. It is also about helping people to decide when electrification is best for them and some of that is about myth-busting and costs. It is not necessarily the cost of the charger. People may think it costs £2,000, which probably would put you off, but if you discover it costs £300 you may have a completely different view, particularly if you have had an incentive to get the vehicle. I think it is about piecing all those bits together.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Policy TR1 funds incentives for the purchase of 1,606 electric vehicles for 2022-2025 and for 1,031 electric vehicle chargers. How are these numbers identified in respect of our population requirements?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

In the financial modelling we did, we had a population growth scenario, that is the same one that was used for the Island Plan. Your point is absolutely right. If population exceeds the growth parameters we put into the model, they will not add up. We will not hit the targets. We know, because of people's activity locally, that the more people live on the Island in general, carbon emissions will go up, particularly if those people living in the Island are high carbon users. If the new people in the Island, the growth people, are living in low-carbon, electricity-powered apartments and they walk to work, their impact on the carbon emission of the Island is much lower than someone who might live in an oil-fuelled house and drive to work. It is quite difficult but we have to make an assumption. We are sure that more people on the Island will make it harder to meet the emission reduction because it generally puts up carbon emissions. We have worked within an assumption and as part of our ongoing monitoring and policy analysis we have to check whether the policies will deliver what you think they will when they go wild in the world and if they need changing to account for things like population growth or different behaviour patterns or new fuels, that is part of the ongoing monitoring of it.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

What consideration is being given to the environmental impact of electric vehicle batteries being produced and replaced and how will your department recycle or dispose of these? We have to start thinking about that.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

The lifecycle analysis of a vehicle is heavy, whether it is a petrol, diesel or electric vehicle, so it is right there is an environmental impact to be accounted for of an electric vehicle. There are studies that demonstrate the life cycle analysis of an electric vehicle if you are using low-carbon electricity to fuel it is significantly lower than that of a petrol or diesel vehicle. The best type of vehicle is a bicycle or your own legs or whatever it might be if you are able to use those alternative forms of transport. We are not just saying electric vehicles are the answer but we recognise they will be a transition opportunity for a lot of people. We have to accept there are environmental impacts, perhaps not as bad as some people are because globally the industry is tightening efficacy around mining, rare minerals and elements. All those things are being continually looked at globally so Jersey has to be cognisant of that wider picture.

[13:00]

We have to be careful of - and your point is right and I talk about scope for the emissions - what is the impact of any person living on this Island and their external emissions that are not necessarily generated locally but are embodied in this laptop, this telephone, whatever the vehicle might be.

We talk about low-carbon lifestyles in our policy proposals and about giving education programmes to help people make those decisions because you are right. It is in the life cycle analysis of a vehicle, in our food choices and not just items we use but also services we provide or might use. For example, is my pension invested in heavy fossil fuel industry? How do I feel about that?

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

To bring it back locally, is there any provision in the scrap yard?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes. Even in our recycling area down in La Collette there is a gentleman there who does nothing but take batteries out of appliances. Now lithium batteries are coming on this sort of thing, it has to be kept separate because you cannot crush them, but everything is separated. There is good scrappage value. All batteries, all the lead, et cetera, is taken to the U.K. and recycled but for safety's sake, all lithium batteries are removed and stored separately.

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3:

The thing to add is when you start to see a lot of electric vehicles on the Island, the way we scrap old vehicles and we deal with the new type of vehicles, whatever they look like will have to change, so our infrastructure will have to catch up. I imagine a lot of this will ultimately be dealt with by the manufacturers so I can see a future where the manufacturers of vehicles also become the end-of- life specialists for that vehicle. This is crystal ball gazing but it makes sense to assume we will have to rethink our infrastructure requirements for local management of products that are end-of-life and how those are recovered, but also thinking about the vehicle industry. It is quite likely that, for example, a Nissan Leaf will be sent back to a Nissan recycling plant in the U.K. who know how to take that vehicle apart and reuse the different components. I expect we will see a different future and a different industry building up around those new vehicles, which is essentially what they are, a completely different thing.

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

It is a growing market, even within our own department of I.H.E., gearing up our skills in terms of maintenance of electric vehicles is something we are doing. They bring their own difficulties as well as benefits. There are not so many moving parts to them but as a business we are training our staff around that high-end electricity work because it is important.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Across the board generally the technology is changing. So many cars now, before they are even built, are stripped down. How can we reutilise all these parts? The fire brigade must have training for dealing with electrical fires in cars, not that that happens but it is a possibility. Even when a car is being scrapped you cannot just cut into it and lean into the car because the airbag could go off and break your neck, so everything is thought out well in advance, constant training. It is changing already.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Concern was raised recently by the Jersey Consumer Council regarding the current cost of fuel and the impact it is having on struggling households. It has been recommended that the environmental tax on road fuel, as agreed by the States in 2019, should be suspended during the surge in fuel prices we are seeing at the moment to help those impacted by the current cost of living emergency. What is your view, Minister?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I would not have a problem with that being suspended. It would probably be unpopular but money is very tight at the moment and food is going up, and cost of fuel adds to that cost. I think food will go up even more, which is quite scary and people are feeling the pinch. Would you like to add anything to that, Louise?

Head of Sustainability and Foresight, SP3: I think that is a political question.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Nicely batted.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Can I then ask you, Minister, and I am not necessarily playing devil's advocate, the chances of fuel prices coming down in the short term is quite remote.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Yes.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

So you say you are going to put off raising money for carbon neutrality until such a time as the fuel price comes down?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I am saying I do not think we should add to the pain that people will be feeling. Everything is going up.

The Deputy of St. Martin : That is a yes then?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes. Gas, electricity; everything is going up.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

So when do we raise money for carbon?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Maybe we need another source, I do not know. I do not pretend to have the answers. But as I say, at the moment I am trying not to increase the pain of the people of Jersey who will be feeling ... if things go bad with Russia and Ukraine things will go up even more, so hopefully that is going to be settled amicably in the not so distant future.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

What about the pain of our children and our grandchildren when the climate changes so much that it is intolerable, Minister?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well we are working on that, as the team here have suggested. But as I say, putting things off for a few months is not going to cause that much damage.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

But you are not talking months; you are talking years if you are waiting for fuel prices to come down.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I did not say waiting for it to come down. I said for the time being.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I am going to run ahead, Minister, in light of the time available, to testing of motor vehicles and such like.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Vehicle testing. Sorry, are you done with the carbon ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

We have some further questions obviously on that, it is a massive subject, and we will pop those through in writing.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

You have worn out the last team so we will bring in a new one. First we have got Gordon Forrest, the Head of D.V.S.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Good afternoon, Gordon. You will know about these things. I will just ask for an update on the current status of the periodic technical inspection of motor vehicles workstreams.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Good afternoon, Chair. Good afternoon, panel. Quick recap to begin with. The outcome of the options appraisal process, which was approved by the Minister, was that the P.T.I.s (periodic technical inspection) are to be undertaken at a single inspection centre, preferably on Government land, constructed, equipped and operated by a private sector company. As part of the work an expressions of interest exercise was undertaken which has demonstrated that there are companies out there, both on-Island and off-Island, who would be interested in doing this. We then moved on to recognising we had to undertake a procurement exercise for an operator, and we have begun the process. We have established technical, legal and procurement support to the process. We have had a lot of support from the Road Safety Authority in Ireland who were very instrumental in helping to set up over 40 stations in Ireland over the last few years, so that has helped us considerably. We have been liaising with the Commercial Services Department from the States extensively, and we are just about to go to pre-qualification now, followed by a full tender. We are expecting to have an operator in place by October 2022. The preliminary level of fee has been established, between £90 and £97, which will cover the operator's fee plus reasonable profit, D.V.S. cost of regulation, quality management, repayment of project costs and a licensing fee to Government.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Will that include G.S.T. (goods and services tax), so we are talking about £100, are we not?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: We are hoping to come in under £100.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Could I just lead on from that in terms of the next question which might affect the timeline? You proposed an amendment to the Draft Bridging Island Plan to earmark green zone fields as the potential site for a vehicle inspection centre. Could you talk us through this process you undertook to establish this as the preferred site, and particularly why it cannot be La Collette?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

We carried out extensive work on sites at La Collette and it became clear at a very early stage that we would not get permission from a planning perspective and from a health and safety perspective. This was based upon being within the blast zone which was established as a result of Buncefield.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Can you just expand on that? Because the Buncefield circumference has seemed to have varied over the last few years and they have reduced from what was originally proposed. Maybe, Andy, you could expand on that?

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, so the main policy around those sort of safety zones are around the number of people congregating or dwelling in that area for a period of time, so this sort of facility would introduce more people. We are talking of circa 30,000 vehicles a year, obviously with the permanent staffing to do that but also the customers coming in and out with their vehicles. So literally the safety advice around what is available at La Collette puts it outside of those tolerable limits really in terms of us getting a planning consent. From a departmental perspective it makes a lot of sense for us to be in that location, I do not dispute that, it is an industrial area, it is somewhere that Islanders are used to going with their vehicles because we have got a D.V.S. office there currently. So if those boundaries changed at some point then I think there would be more land available there for other commercial uses, but at the moment that has effectively been ruled out because of those safety policies. So we have gone through a process of identifying ... we generally have an idea of how large this facility has got to be with the capacity it has got to deliver. Ideally if we can find a site for it that makes it easier to deliver, that is the fundamental thing. If it is on public land we can control the availability of that land firstly, but give a bit more certainty in terms of whoever we have got building and operating this for us as to where it would be. So it is not an easy one but ...

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Could I just ask, Andy, how does that equate then to opening up the new recycling centre down at La Collette where you must have a huge amount more vehicles and people on a daily basis that you would get in a vehicle testing centre?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Absolutely no argument from me on that point. Obviously through Brexit we were obliged through the Vienna Convention to have periodic test inspections and it was always my desire that Gordon would have oversight in both centres of the new unit, which I hoped would be adjacent to the existing unit but for reasons Andy has just explained that has not been possible.

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, so the advice at the time was that was acceptable but the vehicle testing centre would not be acceptable. We are certainly amenable if the policy was changing or interpreted differently to enable something at La Collette. That would be within Government land; it would be in an operational place where it is less impactful on neighbours and residents.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I suppose the associated question is, is the vehicle testing centre able to be adapted to fit the requirements down at La Collette. Are we fixed on what it has to be? Could it be split or ...

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, so it needs to be a certain size. We would advocate this operates differently ... in fact the head office of D.V.S. would also have to regulate the provision at the testing centre, so we would advocate it as a sort of separate set up run by the independent company. It has got to be a certain size practically to deal with the number of vehicles we are talking about. So if it is circa 30,000 a year, divide that out by the number of working days per year, you get an indication we are probably talking a fair few number of vehicles per day going through that facility. So Gordon will probably have some numbers in terms of how many testing lanes we need; probably 4, maybe more. It is a function of how big it is, how often we want it to work, is it a 6 day a week operation, is it 7 days a week, what sort of hours of operation, is it 8.00 a.m. to 8.00 p.m. or is it shorter hours. All of those affect the capacity of the facility. If we operate with smaller hours we would probably need a bigger facility. If we have a wider operational calendar, if it operated on a 12-hour basis, 7 days a week we might get away with a smaller facility, but one is a function of the other really.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Given that building any facility on a greenfield site is unlikely to be popular, do you have a plan B?

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Well, firstly, on the site up at the airport there I think we are heartened to see the inspector's recommendation around zoning that land for industrial purposes.

[13:15]

I think there has been some support and some acknowledgement that land in the vicinity of the airport could be used for light industrial purposes, so I think we are quite heartened to that. It is a good site in terms it is very accessible, it does not have many immediate, near-by residential properties and it is on the main road network, so it is very accessible for people. It is probably a location that most Islanders are used to travelling to for a variety of reasons. If it is not that site I think we will need to have a rethink around whether we are asking our procure tenderer to go and rent a property or find a property in the private sector. That will add to the costs of the solution effectively. Or we do not really have many of those sort of public buildings in our own operation really, so plan B probably is looking into the private sector, I would have thought, in the short term.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Have you explored the land that we have under Ports of Jersey, for example, Andium's arm's length organisation, the property that was transferred to them?

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, so obviously this would be Ports of Jersey land up at the airport so that is the most obvious site. In terms of the harbour side of the Port's estate there is probably nothing in the harbour which is not already being thought about for the evolution of the harbour really in terms of how the harbour has to evolve. Certainly Ports of Jersey have got some ideas as to how their own infrastructure has to be improved and changed. So at the moment, no, we do not feel there is anything suitable. Obviously if it is an Andium or another site they are generally being allocated for housing or another sort of regeneration use.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Could I just add that the airport site could be construed as economically advantageous to the Les Quennevais regeneration programme? If you have got so many vehicles going up there, there is bound to be economic advantages to it as well.

Deputy G.J. Truscott:

I am sure my constituents would disagree with that analogy and I have got to say, strictly from a planning perspective, green zone is highly protected land with a natural presumption not to be built on. I have got to say Les Quennevais School was the last couple of fields that we gave up in the parish along the airport road to facilitate a secondary school, which was all well and good because that is for the greater good. But I do have concerns, particularly on that corner where you are proposing to put this. It is an extremely busy corner; we have got a major service station across the road, we have got commercial deliveries going into the other premises, so I just query the selection of that site.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I think that is why the planning inspector did not particularly see those 2 fields as a green zone line because of the airport cargo centre and because of Roberts Garage and other adjacent commercial activities.

Deputy G.J. Truscott:

I have got to say, that and the football pitch are the only 2 bits of green left along the airport road so I would differ with that particular assessment.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

There will be further discussion on the matter.

Deputy G.J. Truscott: Yes, indeed.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Moving on to the commercial vehicle operator licensing, and particularly the draft fee orders. You might note from our comments on P.118 which was submitted by the States that the panel requested sight of the draft fee orders. Can you let us know when they might be made available?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Will do. Do you want any ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Well, if you can let us have those when they are available that would be great, thank you. I am going to move just to slip in a hospital one, Minister; the demolition of Overdale and the refusal of the planning application. Can you update us on the intended next steps for Jersey Property Holdings given the recent rejection of this?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, certainly. I think Andy can handle this one.

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, so I can answer technically as the applicant, I guess, for the application that was refused in terms of what that means for the hospital project. In terms of what that application did, it gave the project itself a bit of a head start in terms of demolition, but the main application itself does also include demolition and the planning authority confirmed obviously the main application involves redevelopment and removal of the buildings in their own right. So in terms of the application that was refused it stands as a decision, it has been refused so that application is not going to progress.

The main application, however, is going to a public inquiry so the efforts of the hospital team are to focus on the main application at inquiry. There has been a bit of debate as to do we now not have permission to demolish buildings. As it stands there is no permission to demolish the buildings because that has been refused, however, the main application - if that is approved via a public inquiry - will give permission to demolish buildings.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

It will be incorporated in that application?

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, it is incorporated. There has been a bit of debate as to whether it is incorporated or not but the planning application itself indicates the buildings are being removed and the site is being redeveloped; the plans do not indicate that the buildings are being retained so de facto to redevelop a site you need to remove buildings. The impact of that refusal just means to say that the demolition itself cannot take place until the main application has been approved. Invariably we were not going to demolish some of those buildings in any case too quickly because we need to wait for them to be re-provided down at the former Les Quennevais School. So it is more of a timing issue around the project but, yes, so the efforts of the project now are really to focus on the main application at inquiry.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I really would like to pick up on some details around this. If I am correct the main application includes a separate application for demolition. So in the main application you mention there is a separate application for demolition but if you are looking into the consultation form it is excluding demolition.

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and Environment: No, so there is ...

Deputy I. Gardiner :

The application form for the main application and public notice around the site basis have commenced, excluding demolition of the building covered by P/2021/1398?

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and Environment: No, so the main application does include demolition.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

No, in main application you mentioned that it will be a demolition, but demolition in main application does not consider it separately because it was a separate application to the demolition?

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

No, so it does both. So the demolition application was for demolition of the buildings at Overdale; the main application also includes the demolition of buildings at Overdale, plus the other buildings surrounding the Overdale site. So there has been some confusion over the description of development that was on a site notice which was amended by the planning team to ...

Deputy I. Gardiner : When?

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

At the start of the registration process, to try and describe that there was another application for demolition.

Deputy I. Gardiner : Yes, it was in the notice.

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

But the planning application itself does certainly include demolition, and by virtue of the fact that a lot of the responses to that application have covered off the issue of demolition as well. So the planning statement, for instance, for the main application makes it very clear this involves the removal of all the buildings at Overdale, as well as the other ones.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

But would it be considered as a separate item?

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Not at the inquiry. The inquiry on the main planning application will include all of the matters relevant to the redevelopment for that hospital site.

Deputy G.J. Truscott:

As you know I chaired the Planning Committee that day, and I am not going to get drawn too much into this for obvious reasons, but you must have surely taken into account that for example if the decision had gone the other way there would have been a challenge and that could have taken anywhere up to 3 months possibly.

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and Environment: Possibly, yes.

Deputy G.J. Truscott:

Okay, so I just really want to make that point.

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

So the reason for the application for the specific demolition was really to try and get a head start on the demolition. The reason why all of the buildings were applied for in the first instance really, I guess, was for administrative ease because it would have been a single permission, a single contract, a single mobilisation of a demolition contractor effectively on the site. There has been some discussion in the project as to whether we could have just applied for the old buildings to be demolished as opposed to all of the buildings. That could have happened but, again, it would have then involved probably 2 contracts and 2 mobilisations, so the fact it was one redline for all of the buildings was an attempt to try and get a head start but invariably, because of where the project is, we have got to wait until some of those uses have been decanted off before we can demolish the buildings that are currently being used anyway. So I guess it was an attempt to get a head start which has not worked, so we now have to focus on the main application.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Minister, there is a most magnificent specimen of an oak tree, the President's tree, planted in 1937; is that going to be retained?

The Minister for Infrastructure: I sincerely hope so, yes.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Le Port carpark and camping. Minister, through the adoption of P.33 Le Port carpark and camping you were going to consult. What is the progress with this?

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Le Port carpark.

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and Environment: We are having one more change over.

The Minister for Instructure:

We are just wheeling in the last 3 victims.

Director General for Infrastructure, Housing and the Environment:

I can do a little summary before Tristen arrives. But this is probably a balancing act of competing interests I think around Le Port carpark. Obviously we have got those who wish to use it a certain way without control, we have got those who wish to use it in a certain way with control. We are trying to tread a happy medium in between that to allow I guess proper use of the carpark to keep all parties happy, including the Honorary Police as well as various parishes with obviously of course the bay there, but as ourselves as highway authority.

Head of Transport, Highways and Infrastructure:

When we went to the Comité des Connétable s it was quite difficult to get a sort of agreement across ... we had a range of sites that we wanted to discuss and there was some trepidation about to proceed and how suitable the sites were. So the Constable of St. Peter had opted to do a trial in Le Port carpark to go first, and so we have basically been developing a scheme which will allow people to book a space within Le Port carpark if they have a motor home with an internal toilet in it. That scheme will be ready for April. Small things are sometimes the hardest. It has been technically quite challenging even though it is only for a few spaces.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I am just going to whizz on with a couple more questions. Deputy Truscott has got some housing questions.

Deputy G.J. Truscott:

Yes, indeed. We are on to the affordable housing: supply and delivery review and recommendation C5 was: "The Council of Ministers should seek to release identified sites in its ownership for affordable housing schemes before the end of Q2 2022. Consideration should be given to how disposal processes can be sped up in return for provider commitments on building out sites within an agreed period." Minister, in the ministerial response to the panel's affordable housing: supply and delivery scrutiny review it was commented under accepted recommendation C5 that work is underway led by the Minister for Infrastructure and in line with the Estates Strategy to improve disposal processes for Government owned sites to be developed for affordable housing. Please can you elaborate further on how you are seeking to improve disposal processes and by when?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Certainly. If I can bring in Mr. Jim Daniels, Head of Property Holdings.

Head of Property Holdings:

Thank you, Chair. There is a process in train at the moment that is being led by the SP3 team in terms of the review of the regeneration steering group and the process for acknowledgement and disposal of properties. The review has got a challenging deadline, in fact I think it may be going to the Council of Ministers in the next couple of weeks, and certainly in the timeline that the response outlined a decision would have been made.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thank you. In light of the time I am going to move, if I may, straight on to Deputy Luce who is going to ask a couple of questions on the foreshore.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Minister, 13 months ago we issued a review of the foreshore encroachment and you accepted 6 of our recommendations. Can I ask how many have been implemented please?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Certainly, if I can go back over to Tim.

Head of Property Holdings:

We continue to work on the responses, Deputy Luce . There are a number of challenges that we face. I think at the time we drew attention to the fact that we were under resourced. We have just completed the recruitment of a new surveyor and as soon as she is in position we will be looking to move this process on, but at the moment we have not got any further with the actions. We recognise that it is a very pressing issue but, as I say, we are very challenged by resources at the moment.

[13:30]

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Minister, are you disappointed 13 months later you have not done any of the recommendations that you accepted?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, I knew it was going to be a very complex piece of work and I knew with the resources that we had it was going to be very difficult. But as Tim has pointed out, we are moving ahead but things are slow.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Minister, as we come towards the end of our time, what do you consider are the immediate and most important priorities for the next successive Minister for Infrastructure once in post?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The next Minister for Infrastructure, I wish that person, he or she, the very best of luck because it is not an easy job, that is for sure. As you look in today's J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post) I am in trouble regarding St. Ouen 's Bay at the moment because my motivation was ... quite a few people were getting tickets in the St. Peter area and St. Brelade area, and if you have been on the beach all day with the family the last thing you want to do is come back to your car and find that the Honorary Police have put a ticket on for £60 or £80 to ruin their day. So the team decided that it might be a good idea just to sort of reformulate the area where it is wider to put in a few wooden stakes.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

So that could well pass on to the next Minister; is that what you are suggesting?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Possibly, and also because it is technically the pathway there, there were people with wheelchairs who had to come into the middle of the road, buses could not pass each other. It did not happen very often but obviously we do our best to help out the parishes. But apparently, according to Save Jersey's Heritage, I am concreting over the whole bay which is nothing further from the truth. They are talking about small wooden stakes in one area and improving the curtilage all the way along to stop people parking there.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Leading on from that, as we approach the end of the term what do you consider to be your main achievements?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Main achievements; in the past I would say LibertyBus, I think they are a very forward looking company. We have done our very best to put up as many bus shelters as we possibly could. Some of the day to day work is not particularly attractive but the resurfacing of Havre des Pas, which is now open and I congratulate the team for opening 2 weeks' early having had a delay to start with. They have done exceptionally well and I congratulate them. But repairing roads is always quite painful because we have a very high population and we cannot really build new roads. I would like to build a St. Helier bypass but we cannot do that because of the topography of the Island, and we cannot knock people's houses down. This is if we had the money.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

If I could pick you up on that point; do you consider there are any areas of the department under your remit which lack sufficiently resourcing, either financial or staffing?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

All of it. Because obviously we took a hit with COVID with the infrastructure budget, we had to help out as much as we could. Obviously we oversaw the building of the Nightingale Hospital in the department and Andy and the team are down working on that. I can say that was a success. We did not have the vaccine at the time so obviously we did not know how bad it was going to be. We were just told that it was "out of control and coming your way". So the only thing we had to go on at that time basically was the Spanish Flu which killed many millions of people and injured many others through several waves. But luckily the facility was not needed and it has now been dismantled. The field has been put back to as it was previously, and I am also extremely grateful to the very kind benefactor who has bought the field and donated most of it to the people of Jersey. That was tremendous. So we can make sure that field is held for the people of Jersey in perpetuity. A small section was given to the glass church I believe, but a very generous benefactor so I am very grateful.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Indeed. Minister, the time has come. I thank you and your team for presenting to us this morning, it has been very helpful, and we will follow up with a few questions which remain outstanding if we may.

[13:35]