Children, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel

Quarterly Hearing

Witness: The Minister for Home Affairs

Wednesday, 26th July 2023

Panel:

Deputy C.D . Curtis of St. Helier Central (Chair) Connétable M. Labey of Grouville (Vice-Chair) Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée of St. Helier South

Witnesses:

Deputy H. Miles of St. Brelade , The Minister for Home Affairs

Deputy H. Jeune of St. John , St. Lawrence and Trinity , Assistant Minister for Home Affairs Mr. R. Smith, Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police

Ms. K. Briden, Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs

Mr. P. Gavey, Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service

[14:58]

Deputy C.D . Curtis of St. Helier Central (Chair):

Welcome to this quarterly hearing of the Children, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel. Today is 26th July 2023. I would like to draw everyone's attention to the following. This hearing will be filmed and streamed live, the recording and transcript will be published afterwards on the States Assembly's website. All electronic devices, including mobile phones, should be switched to silent. So if we begin with introductions. I am Deputy Catherine Curtis , I am the chair of the Children, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel.

Connétable M. Labey of Grouville (Vice-Chair):

My name is Connétable Mark Labey of the Parish of Grouville . I am the vice-chair of this panel.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M. Porée of St. Helier South : I am Deputy Porée , and I am a member of this panel.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Helen Miles , I am Minister for Home Affairs.

Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:

Deputy Hilary Jeune , Assistant Minister for Home Affairs.

Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police: Good afternoon, chief of police, Robert Smith.

Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs

Kate Briden, chief officer for Justice and Home Affairs.

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service: Peter Gavey, chief ambulance officer.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Thank you, everyone. We have got 1½ hours for this hearing, so I will start with some questions about the ambulance service. To begin, Minister, could you please give us an update on the current vacancy levels in the States of Jersey Ambulance Service?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I have got a list of vacancies in front of me here, but I am just wondering if you would prefer to hear it from the chief ambulance officer and then maybe he can explain some of the context behind some of the remaining vacancies.

[15:00]

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

So we currently have a considerable number of new posts this year from the Government Plan last year, which are incorporated in our numbers, and we are currently awaiting a meeting of the States Employment Board to look at some organisational change before we implement some of those posts. They are slightly higher than the actual vacancies for front line staffing. There are currently 16.43 F.T.E. (full-time employment), of which 8 are from front line staffing themselves, and one management post that were previous to the additional posts. We have also got, as requested earlier, the 4 agency staff in currently that are covering for some shortages of staff that we have due to absences at the moment.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay, so there are vacancies then because I think in the Government Plan that was approved for 13 new front line staff.

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

So there are 13 staff I think in total across that. We did have some posts also next year. It is worth mentioning there that in terms of our actual front line staffing numbers, including the post that we have already brought into that from the Government Plan this year, that of 3 of the vacancies we have been moving some staff around. So some have had promotions. Three staff have already moved into the front line service from our intermediary service. We have 2 new recruits starting as ambulance paramedics in August and we have 2 of the posts just on hold for the organisational change for this. So many of the front line posts will be recruited to very shortly. In all, they have already been recruited to but will be filled by the applicants coming into post within the next few months.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Right, okay. I think you mentioned as well there were 4 agency staff, so the percentage of agency staff is quite low.

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service: It is, yes.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Is recruitment going well or is it challenging to get people at the moment?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

It has been more challenging this year on the basis that many of the staff that have or Islanders that have gone away and trained and come back to work for us are on interim contracts or bank agency- type contracts have already accepted work with the service contracts in recent years. Therefore this year when we went out we also had the additional posts on top of our vacancies. So to fill those were more difficult, but we have managed to fill them. Some of those posts are newly qualified paramedics and providing preceptorship and mentorship for them as they start their careers.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Could you just confirm what on-Island training is available for these roles?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

So on-Island training usually goes up as far as ... can get to around ambulance technician level. So we can do all the lower levels of training ourself. We are in the process of working through the level of training required at ambulance technician to do that on-Island as well. We just need some additional support with that at the moment. Paramedic training is all off-Island. That is now a degree based at B.Sc (Bachelor of Science) level. However, we have 2 staff currently, who are technicians, that are on the distance learning course. They are supported by London Ambulance, but they are working through Cumbria University. They have had to do a conversion course; 6 months to start with and then now on a full 2-year degree programme but through the service. So they are working while they are supported for their learning activities as well. So they will qualify hopefully within a 2- year period.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

That is interesting. Is it something that is going to continue with this degree level training?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

Yes, so we did do it prior to COVID. We had a little gap once it moved to degree level training, as in the usual providers were not able to provide the same level of training for us on that distance learning basis. We had to stop during COVID because we were not able to send people away. Now that that has opened up it gives us opportunity. We just have to look at the numbers of staff each year that we can support off the roster to carry out that training. That is a piece of what we are doing at the moment.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

So maybe it would be more than 2?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

Over time. It is whether it would be one to 2 a year. We are looking at all of those numbers at the moment to see what we can support off the operational roster to allow that training to continue?

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Have there been any instances in the last quarter where the ambulance service has been understaffed, would you say?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

There are times I think during the last quarter where we would have struggled for staffing, but we have got quite a robust plan in place where we will go through the service. We will use agency staff where necessary and use obviously our own staff first. We will offer out overtime and we will go out to the voluntary agencies, if necessary, or officers will step in. It does not happen very often where we run under the numbers, where there is not somebody supportive on station to go. It would usually be even on a night shift or weekend. But we have the paramedic in place and we have plans to bring in extra crew once we have met with the States Employment Board. If that is accepted, we have got plans that we can bring an extra crew on towards the end of the year over the next year.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Right, so maybe later this year. Has much overtime been used ... I think you mentioned overtime being used actually to supplement. Is that being used quite a lot?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

Some overtime will have been used throughout the year. That is normal anyway. We would have a reasonable amount of overtime staff. It is not that easy to get agency staff in quickly. So when we do have shortages we do have to turn to overtime for that. We do not have the figures with me today but I can ... we will give them to you.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Yes, that would be good to see please. Has the fire service had to be used for an emergency ambulance call out during the last quarter?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

I would say yes. I do not have the details with me at the moment, but they really respond to a range of calls for us where there is not an ambulance available to go to support us or to support crew, if they need additional support on scene. So while I do not have the exact figures, I can again get those but they certainly would be since the last quarter.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Thank you. I have just got a few more questions. In a letter to the panel, Minister, you described some further possible organisational changes to the staffing model at the ambulance service. So can you share any details of that?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Again, I think the best person to do that is the chief officer. They are actually going to be visiting the States Employment Board. They were due to be there now actually, but we have put it off until 4.45, to discuss the organisational change model. So I think the chief officer can best explain.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

This would be about these extra staff.

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

We have undertaken an independent capacity review now that is completed and given us the results. I cannot go into all of the details at the moment until the States Employment Board have agreed to release it. We have some changes in the management structure, most of which is line management changes where we have slotted in new posts that were obtained through the Government Plan last year or for this year. The changes that we have already discussed with staff is the potential to move around some of the current services to provide that full vehicle on the emergency front line side and some additional work on a stretcher vehicle for lower acuity work on the patient transport service side. We have discussed that with staff already and the unions, so I am mentioning that. Obviously we need the support of the States Employment Board and there is a business case that is going on at the moment just to support some additional staffing to provide a stretcher vehicle on the patient transport side.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

My next question is actually about the Be Heard survey. So government staff are invited to complete this and did that include staff from the ambulance service? If so, is there any feedback from that survey?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I think the Be Heard ... all the departments of Justice and Home Affairs have completed the Be Heard survey and I think what we are doing, we are in the process of disseminating those results out to individual departments and then there will be an action plan accordingly to pick up on those results. I think it is something that the E.L.T. (executive leadership team) have just recently been able to start work on.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

So will we see that at some point in the next quarterly?

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service: At the next quarterly, yes. We will follow that one up.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

And were agency staff included in the survey?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I think it is my understanding everybody who was working for a particular department on the day was included in the survey. There is no reason that they should have been excluded from it.

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

I am not sure if the agency staff, as in the 4 that were over from the U.K. (United Kingdom), have or not. I will have to check on that. But certainly all the bank staff and ancillary staff we have were.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

You mentioned the patient transport service before. With regards to that, and bearing in mind the new centre at Les Quennevais ... this is quite a long question. I am just seeing how best to say it. Could you confirm how many patients are expected to need patient transport service to the Enid Quenault Health Centre at Les Quennevais each day?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

So we believe from the figures we have at the moment, it ranges from 10 to 15 a day in transport there and back. That is based on the number of patients that are currently going to the Overdale site. There are 2 days of the week that are slightly busier - we have 14,15 patients a day - but the other days are slightly lower.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

So this would be ... I have got a percentage, is this the P.T.S. (patient transport service) workload? Because the patient transport service does quite a lot, does not it? So how much time might this take up, do you think?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

So we think from what we have looked at, at the moment, that the journey time basically between where roughly it is at the moment and Quennevais, in terms of those journeys and how many a day, because some patients will be picked up at slightly different times, so there will be an impact on the difference in the distance there. That will predominantly affect those in the town area and those in the east of the Island, which may be offset again by those in the west of the Island, but now do not need to go quite so far. It is very difficult to put on those numbers an exact timing because some of them will be on the minibus at the same time. The delays should not be too extensive at the moment but we will continue to monitor that because obviously if services change or people have a different need for those services in the future, those that may get there by themselves at the moment may require transport in the future. So it is something I need to monitor once the centre opens.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

As for the monitoring of that, would this be done by the ambulance service directly or by J.H.A. (Justice and Home Affairs)?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

We would monitor it through the control centres. Our patient transport service control centre will monitor and manage to monitor the journey times which we are able to extract from the system, and they will also monitor any increase in workload if doctors and clinicians request further transport for new clients.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Will feedback from the users be sought as well?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

At the moment we have not planned to. It is something we can factor in. When we have done previous surveys on patient transport there has not been a great willingness from the client types that use that service to provide very much feedback. I think they are content if they receive the transport or the service. I think we can consider and build in if necessary.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

You feel this is all well-prepared for; in September possibly it will happen?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

As far as we can be at the moment, I think we are as prepared as we can be. As I say, we will need to monitor that closely and see what changes. But there may be opportunity also to change different runs to make that work differently because of where the centre is located.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Do you think there might be a need for more staff?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

As part of the business case that we have put in for 2024, that includes some additional staffing in that model. Not particularly because of the location at Les Quennevais but generally the requirement for patient transport service needed some additional staffing anyway to cope with the numbers. That has already had the support, as I understand at the moment, from the Council of Ministers and if

that progresses through the year then hopefully that would provide some support next year in addition.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay. Because I thought that it was described as having a small negative impact, but it sounds like you think that it is going to be working okay.

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

I think between the service changes, what we can do and the additional staff we will be able to manage that.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

How was the ambulance service and P.T.S. consulted about the use of the Les Quennevais site?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

Fairly early on when the site was decided to be used, there was engagement with the patient transport service managers and that resulted in a number of meetings and planning around what the journeys would look like. As I say, number of journeys per day is not to the extent where there was any extensive sort of work required to analyse that because the numbers are so low.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

So you are confident that feedback and consultation was undertaken with suitable depth?

[15:15]

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service: Yes.

Deputy C.D . Curtis : Okay.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Because obviously we were concerned that you were fully consulted.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Yes, and it is an extra new thing to take account of, is it not?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

I would say that obviously when we were consulted it was about short-term use of it while the new hospital was built. So we will do more monitoring work with the team there to see what long-term effects would have.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Has P.T.S. been given the resource or support to review data and undertake modelling on how it might be impacted, like having test runs, things like that?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

As part of our 2023 Government Plan bid, there is an analyst post within that. So we will be using that analyst post to create our own data around it. It is the easiest way to do it because they will have full access to the health data and the ambulance service data together.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

I will just now look at the key performance indicators for the patient transport service, and if I just say 3 of them quickly. That is that inward patients to arrive no later than 15 minutes after appointment, outward patient pickup up to 45 minutes after appointment, and patient travel time to not exceed 45 minutes. Could you tell us how these K.P.I.s (key performance indicators) were decided upon?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

Certainly. During the work we did on the demand of capacity review last year, we identified that while we collate the number of total journeys and we collate the number of reported journeys, and reported journeys are those where we have already set off to collect the patient and then they might not be there, somebody else has taken them, they might be unwell, things like that. We were not looking at the times patients were really on board the ambulance. During the modelling and the work that we did with the companies that were helping us on the demand and capacity review, we looked to other areas to see what sort of measures they put in place. It was decided that those 3 measures were the most appropriate. The reasoning really behind them is no later than 15 minutes is once 15 minutes has passed it is much harder for them to then slot ... for the hospital services to slot them into appointments. The outward pick-up time is obviously patients or clients would start to be affected if they were left for long periods of time in waiting rooms. It is more about patient comfort. Then the travel time not to exceed 45 minutes is really around patient comfort and toileting. If you are on a minibus for that length of time, it does not allow for any stops for toileting. So getting patients home within a reasonable amount of time is quite important.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

You mentioned this looked at practice elsewhere, so that sort of compares in a similar way?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service: Yes.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

My last question on this: who was part of the steering group who was consulted on these K.P.I.s?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

So the steering group included experts from the Association of Ambulance Chief Executives that were leading the review for us. A company was brought in called ORH. They are a modelling company that widely work with the emergency services to model data, including ambulance and patient data. They had input into that. And then it was myself and the senior leadership team, the management team and ambulance.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Great, okay. Thank you, that is my questions. You have some more, do you not, Deputy Porée ?

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

It may be for you as well because it is some more about the ambulance. With regards to the plans for the new multi-sited hospital, it has been reported that acute care will be located at the Overdale site. Would you advise how the ambulance service has contributed to the consultation on hospital decisions, please?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

So I have written to the team. We have been in various consultations with a team working on the various projects at the hospital over time, and they have invited us and presented to us on each of those occasions. I have written to the team that are running the project to highlight any of the issues that we wanted to discuss. We then met. They arranged a meeting and they presented to me and myself and the management team and our chief officer around the changes and what they are looking at with the new plans. Mainly at this stage around the road network and the access/egress to the site. We have given feedback on that and I will be providing further feedback from the meetings that we have had. I have spoken to them about going out for staff opinion on that as well, which I think is important. At the moment the concerns really relate to the bend on the south side of the road. We are just making sure that that is suitable for ambulances to pass in each direction with the cars. As I understand it from the team at the moment, they have potential solutions that they are looking at but they will come back to meet with us. We have also offered them the opportunity to ride in an ambulance up and down the hill to see the context within which the ambulance will move through that area.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

I suppose it is a really important part of the scheme because it is the time that it is going to take you to get to the hospital or vice versa.

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

I think we have all acknowledged that the difference ... not only the hill but the difference in location will create a slight difference in the timings. When you look at that compared with other sites that were looked at in the past, it is a similar thing. As we said about Les Quennevais, if we move the site out into another area then that will cause differences in the timings. The majority of our work is in the south and town region. So the delays, while they are fairly minimal, we need to understand that more and future hospital sites. I am looking at that at the moment and they are analysing what the traffic flow movements would be generally because there will be more traffic going towards that site. They are looking at all of that and what effects that might have on emergency vehicles.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

So you are saying you are quite happy with the conversations that are taking place at the moment with regards to that particular stretch of road?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

Yes, I think so. I mean, there are more discussions to be had with them but they have listened to our concerns and there are ongoing discussions.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

How is the multi-site hospital going to impact the demand and capacity required from the ambulance services?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

At the moment, we have also highlighted that the change in distance to the hospital, the timings with the road network, would mean that we would have to run a further demand capacity review in the future once that scheme is settled. That is really to understand what impacts it is having on the service. That is quite a regular thing with ambulance services. Certainly they will take in terms of looking on a 2, 3, 4-year cycle to see how that has changed and we will plan that into any future requirements at the time. I think the multi-site changes in general, if the plans as we understand them are more for outpatients and clinic-type appointments then it might have an effect also on the patient transport service in the future. The emergency ambulance might always be required at those sites but until we know more of the detail of what would be held in those sites it is very difficult to ascertain what effect that might have on the emergency ambulance service. We know that, depending on where certain services are located - mental health services as an example - that might require emergency ambulances to go to the St. Saviour site and we already use that site currently, so there may not be a huge change in that element. There is nothing that I have seen at the moment from the information that we have that suggests emergency ambulances would regularly be required at those sites. But we will monitor that again as the plans progress.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Thank you. I had a question about at what point would the timeline of the project involve the interests of the ambulance services. But it appears to me this is happening from the word go. Is that fair to say?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service: Yes.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Can you confirm whether the paramedic and ambulance technician staffing will be considered as a core part of any staffing review for future hospital plans or healthcare model? Maybe, I do not know, which one would rather answer that question. Shall I repeat? So can you please confirm whether paramedic and ambulance technician staffing will be considered as a core part of any staffing review for future hospital plans and healthcare model?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I think it is fair to say that ambulance came on to Justice and Home Affairs because it was a blue light service. But that link with the health service is still very relevant and very strong. Clearly any plans at delivering healthcare facilities necessarily involve the role of the ambulance. I think, as you have just heard, they are always involved at the beginning of the process.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Thank you for confirming that. Please could you advise whether ... I mean either. That would be for the Minister but whoever feels comfortable answering. Please can you advise whether you have had any further discussions about the new fire and ambulance headquarters and advise when you expect to be able to make an announcement about the new site?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

All I would say to that is negotiations are ongoing, as I have said many times.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

We have asked this before, have we not?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, and I have answered questions without notice. It is a really difficult conundrum. The fire service have been on that Rouge Bouillon site for over 70 years and the original intention was for a joint headquarters to be built on that site. But then that was superseded by a proposition in the States to secure that site for a school back in 2018. So really since then, certainly my predecessor and certainly now myself together with the chief officer, are looking at all different elements of feasibility capacity; all of those sorts of things. Obviously we are working very closely with the Minister for Infrastructure on that. I am afraid I cannot give you any more detail than it is ongoing. But we are going to have to break ourselves out of this conundrum one way or another otherwise we are not going to have a school and we are not going to have an ambulance station and we are not going to have a fire station. Clearly it is well-identified that we need both. They are absolutely competing projects and are equally important. I know they span both of your responsibilities in that you get Home Affairs and Children and Education. I would say that we are moving forward, albeit slowly. But I am optimistic that we are ... we are going to have to solve it. A decision is going to have to be made otherwise we are just going to continue going round and round in circles, and that is not really acceptable.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

It is a good honest update, so thank you.

The Minister for Home Affairs: There is nothing more I can say really.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Can I just add one more question about the ambulance service? When we were talking about the road, it does look like there will be changes made to that road then that would be necessary; Westmount.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Because obviously the original scheme involved the bowling club, an under-surface road heating system. It is just interesting to hear that we are back there now but without all those plans put in place.

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

As I understand it from the initial scheme, it was more about active travel corridors. It was very much about cycling, walking with all of the hospital being on the Overdale site. I think that position has changed now so it will be much more like the road itself. I do not think it would take too much to change in terms of width of the road to make it more easily passable. It is something that the design team will look at to see what they can come up with. It is always going to be more difficult because it is a hill and it has a certain camber to it which you cannot change easily, but I think they will ... they are doing everything they can to look at how to make that as easy as possible.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Our interest would be in the speed and safety of managing that.

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service: The speed is not such a concern, certainly again ...

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée : On timing matters.

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

As you come up the hill you are set to a certain amount of speed and numbers anyway with that and you have to drive at a safe speed with the patient in the back there while somebody is looking after them and treating them anyway. But there are 2 ways, so we will look at all of that as a team; come up with the plans as that develops.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay. I think that is all our questions about the ambulance service.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Did you want to release Peter now?

Deputy C.D . Curtis : If you wanted to go?

Chief Ambulance Officer, States of Jersey Ambulance Service:

I will probably wait because we have the S.E.B. (States Employment Board) meeting, if that is all right?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

We are seeing the States Employment Board together.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Our next questions relate to the fire service, Minister. The panel has noted the current recruitment campaign for firefighters and on-call firefighters. Please, could you advise what the current vacancy level in the fire service is, please?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

At the moment, against planned establishment, we have got 7 vacancies and all but one of those are for on-call. So that is the retained roles. But that will inevitably fluctuate in the coming period. As you know, in the Government Plan 2023 to 2026 we have allocated for investment in the fire service. So we will be looking for a greater number. But you are quite right, the recruitment campaign is underway. It is going very well indeed. We are seeking applicants for both the whole time.

[15:30]

So that is the full-time and the on-call retained. So far we have had 50 applications for full-time and we have had 12 for the on-call roles. We have had a number of open evenings and taster sessions and we have had 84 people who have attended those on Sunday and Monday. I am pleased to say as well that 18 of those were females. We are certainly hitting the hitting the mark there in increasing the diversity of our fire and rescue service.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Excellent. One of the recommendations from the Local Government Association or National Fire Chiefs Council was published last year and it said: "Seek innovative ways to increase capacity at officer level to lift the burden off stations, to cover strategic and corporate work." Acknowledging that the firefighter recruitment is on the front line, can you advise whether there has been recruitment into management and officer level of the service as well?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It has been a particular issue and following a round of promotions to supervisory and middle leadership roles, a further round of appointments to even more senior roles will start for those known vacancies and some of the anticipated vacancies and the new posts which form part of the investment plan from the government money. Those recruitments are ongoing.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Sounds fantastic. I like the sound of the taster sessions when it comes to fire service. That is intriguing.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I think they get a chance to kind of unroll the hose and have a go at some of the ladder work and everything, which sort of takes the mystique out of it I think a little bit when you actually come for your assessment day.

The Connétable of Grouville :

You do not throw them into a burning building just for fun.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Not at this point.

The Connétable of Grouville :

I am just looking at the innovative ways.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

We want to encourage them, not put them off at this point.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Absolutely. We have previously heard about a uniform services review in relation to the police. Please could you confirm whether this was undertaken for all emergency services and if so, are you able to share any of the outcomes?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

The uniform services review is ongoing. It was started certainly well before my time. When you say the "uniform services", it is the police, the fire service and the ambulance service. There has been an outcome around the fire service review and I think it is going to be announced in short order.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Because the next question was: will the results of that be made public?

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes, they will.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Excellent. At a previous hearing, you confirmed that a new fire service aerial ladder platform would be delivered by the end of this year. Could you give us an update on that, please, and the target for delivery?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

The platform has to be purpose built. I think they all have to be purpose built; maybe narrower for Jersey, not necessarily lower, but potentially narrower. The plan for delivery is still by the end of the year and the opportunity is to commission it in January. I think it is fair to say that, like everything, the market's been impacted by availability of materials, particularly steel, et cetera, so there might be a small delay. But we are expecting our next contact from the supplier in mid-August.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Excellent. Will the new ladder platform help to mitigate the risk of high-rise residential fires on the Justice and Home Affairs risk register?

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes, it will.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Because we were conscious of quite a few of those. Will that remain as one of the major risks? Are there still to be properties in the Island that will be still on that?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I think I probably want the chief fire officer to answer that, but certainly this will go some way to mitigating the risk of high-rise buildings.

Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:

I think, if I might just add, the key thing would be the extra people needed. It is great to have a bit of equipment.

The Connétable of Grouville : But you have to have the bodies.

Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:

The Government Plan investment is about making sure that we have enough people to fight that fire.

The Connétable of Grouville :

I just watched somebody using a piece of equipment yesterday and thinking, my goodness me, that is going to need some training on that ladder.

Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: Yes, it does.

The Connétable of Grouville : Thank you very much.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Yes, it would be good to hear more about that when the time comes.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Perhaps we can invite you and you can come and have a go on it.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Maybe not a go. I might have a look.

The Connétable of Grouville :

I get a nose bleed going to the bathroom, thank you very much.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

I have got some questions next still on the fire service about how it connects up with safety to do with building and planning. So, Minister, from a government strategy perspective, what is your opinion of the current strategy around the links between fire safety and planning and building development?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

The chief fire officer is in dialogue about this issue with colleagues from the regulation function of the Infrastructure and Environment Department, as well as the Health and Safety Inspectorate. The chief officer and the newly appointed director of health and safety have discussed this issue immediately prior to the new director of health and safety coming into post. We are very lucky in that the new director is actually an expert in building safety. I think I mentioned that last time. She was the person that implemented the building regulations in the United Kingdom. So a meeting - obviously we need to let Elaine get her feet under the table - of all the key officials was arranged for late in September. There will be a range of stakeholders there, so a real fuller position about where we are and what we need to do should become clearer around that time. But from the point of view of the chief fire officer, it would be very beneficial to consider the U.K.'s building safety programme. We are lucky that we have got Elaine to help us with that. There was a big report into building regulations in the U.K. on fire safety by a lady called Dame Judith Hackitt. In the Jersey context, we sense quite broad agreement with that approach. We do not see any reason at this point to divert from that.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Because my next question was about just to describe how the fire and rescue service works with planning and building control at the moment.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

They are quite closely interlinked because when the planning applications are there, there are certain requirements for fire safety, building safety and the like. We have got a building safety team at the fire station who will liaise closely with that team.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

So this will build on what is already there.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

This is about learning from what has happened in the United Kingdom and making sure that we are absolutely where we should be when it comes to building safety.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

I was going to ask about timescales but you have mentioned a meeting in late September.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It is ongoing. The new director of health and safety, clearly that is her area of expertise. So we are very lucky to have that person in post. We are not resting on our laurels on this at all.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

That is good. One more question on this. Are there plans to make changes to the Fire and Rescue Service (Jersey) Law 2011 or building bylaws or both of them to improve safety?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I am not sure. I think that will come out of the review and it will come through the normal process. As usual, if things are urgent, we rejig the priority.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

So that will be considered in these discussions and so on?

The Minister for Home Affairs: Absolutely.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay, thank you.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

At our last quarterly hearing, Minister, you did provide us an update on the Youth Justice Service and you did say it was near completion. Would you take us a bit further on that?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I received an initial draft of the strategy earlier this year. As you would expect, I think I had some comments and feedback for officers at that time. The strategy has now been revised. I received that earlier in the week. I am in the process of reviewing it and I will consider it before it is being sent out to stakeholders for comment. I think probably the best thing to do would be to offer you a briefing about the youth justice strategy, being that it straddles both your areas of focus. I think that would be good before it goes out to the States.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Please could you also provide the panel with an update on the legislative programme items which relate to the revised demand in securing accommodation arrangements for children and young people?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Again, that kind of straddles both of your areas, does not it? The law drafting officers continue to work on the draft law. Primary law will be lodged this year and then it will be the rules that will follow shortly afterwards. That is for the bit about remission and temporary release from secure accommodation at Greenfields because there is a bit of an anomaly that if you are in custody you can have temporary release and admission but if you are in Greenfields you cannot. That is the change to the law on that one. There are some legislative amendments coming in relation to pre- court remand. Again, work by officers with the law drafter and consultation with the Children's Commissioner with regard amendments to this legislation, what this will do is it will introduce an option of remanding children and young people into the care of the Minister for Children and Education so that they do not have to go to Greenfields. They could potentially go into another children's home. At the moment the only place we have to secure accommodation is Greenfields, but actually it might better meet the needs of the child to go into one of the other children's homes or accommodations. But we need the law change to make that happen.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

So that is looking at it as a child first.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, absolutely. So they are being identified there. What I would say is I meet regularly with the Children's Commissioner and this will be brought forward as soon as possible.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Thank you. My next question is with relation to the Children's Commissioner as well. It is about consultations, if any at all, or what have been done with the Children's Commissioner and yourselves with regards to the child rights' approach in terms of any future legislation change?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It is implicit in that. I mean any future legislation has to have a Children's Rights Impact Assessment and certainly, from a Justice and Home Affairs perspective, we would not be bringing anything forward without proper discussion with the Children's Commissioner. I meet with the Children's Commissioner at least quarterly to discuss different issues.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Will any changes ensure that the Children's Commissioner has not notified you of this, if you could confirm. And has access to any child or young person who is in secure accommodation for justice purpose without communication will be ongoing and not notified.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

I think any child that is in secure accommodation for justice purposes is considered to be a looked- after child. So they are actually the responsibility of the Minister for Children and Education. Any negotiation around that rights aspect would need to be with that particular Minister, not me.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée : Thank you for clarifying that.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Minister, at our last hearing you advised that work was underway by 2 experts to report on the updates required for emergency planning and civil contingency laws. Please could you confirm if that report was delivered at the end of June and what the next stages are for developing that legislation?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

As you know, we had 2 experts come to Jersey in this area and they were tasked with preparing a crisis resilience improvement plan. Is that coming out of the work that is being done?

Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:

The Minister for Home Affairs:

So the work that is being done there now is the product of a crisis resilience improvement plan, and that is about to be published. That will be the last document that the C.E.O. (chief executive officer), Suzanne, publishes on behalf of. There will be some work to interpret that and then take that forward.

The Connétable of Grouville :

At our last hearing also, you advised that you had resurrected the Criminal Justice Systems Board. Are you able to give any further information about the initial focus of that board?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes. I am pleased to say that the Criminal Justice Working Group, which sits under the Criminal Justice Systems Board, has been meeting regularly now for about over a year. They recently established the subgroups under the working group and that gives us an opportunity to really get things moving. We have got, for example, the training and development group, which is headed up by Susie Richardson, the Prison Governor. She is taking the lead on the training requirements across the criminal justice system but most particularly at the moment for the implementation of the new domestic abuse law. There is a group that looks at victims and witnesses and ensures that those needs are met. We have a group around criminal justice I.T. (information technology) and integrated systems. We have a research and information function, which sits within Justice and Home Affairs. What is the other one? It used to be called security but I think that has probably fallen away. It is probably just those 4. Each of those 4 are led by a different senior member of the criminal justice system and they feed back up into the working group and then that reports up into the Criminal Justice Systems Board.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Can I ask a quick question on that? What sort of people are on these groups? Are they people working in the ...

[15:45]

The Minister for Home Affairs:

The Criminal Justice Systems Working Group is chaired by the Attorney General and you have then got the chief officers of the other criminal justice agencies. For example, you have got the chief probation officer, you have the prison governor, the judicial Greffier, you have a senior leader from the States of Jersey Police is on that, the magistrate would sit on that from the courts' perspective.

So you have really got everybody who is operationally focused around the justice system around the table discussing issues so that we can come up with common resolutions and move forward together.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Before the Domestic Abuse (Jersey) Law 2023 came into force in June, it was noted that the rules of court had not been finalised. Please can you provide an update and confirm whether these are now in place?

The Minister for Home Affairs:  

The Law Officers' Department confirmed that the draft rules are with the Criminal Procedure Rules Committee, which is a group that is formed under the Bailiff , and they have gone to the Court of Appeal for comments. Those comments are due by 17th August, so we should have a set of rules then, notwithstanding that does not stop any prosecution. The fact that the rules were not there we were assured did not stop prosecutions being brought and dealt with by the courts. This just clarifies things a little bit for them.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Excellent. My next question was about the completion date, so you have answered that already. Following the adoption of the primary legislation in 2022, please can you provide us with an update of the draft Police Complaints and Conduct (Jersey) Regulations?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

The regulations have been back and forth between various stakeholders, I think as I mentioned last time. The amendments following that further consultation have now been sent back to the Law Drafting Office for additional changes. They have literally come back from the Law Drafting Office earlier this week and that will go back to the Attorney General, I think, for final comment and then we will share it finally with stakeholders. I have to say for information, this has been in the making for about 4 years and I think one of the issues is as people change and associations change, people would like maybe to see things done in a different way, but we do need to get these regulations through. So unless there is anything major, we will be launching them as is, but obviously you will have an opportunity to see them in short order.

The Connétable of Grouville : So lodging is fairly imminent?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Not until the consultation has been done, yes, absolutely.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Is it still possible that changes might happen?

The Minister for Home Affairs: It is. It is very unlikely but ...

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

I have some questions now about the substance use strategy. Please could you provide some more detail about the joint working between the Public Health Directorate, Justice and Home Affairs and the S.P.P.P. (Strategic Policy, Performance and Population) Department in respect of the recently published substance use strategy?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

The substance use strategy, although it technically belongs to the Minister for Health and Social Services, by its very nature is a cross-departmental strategy of which there are lots of stakeholders, because it is a multi-faceted strategy and we have to have different prongs and attack these issues from different angles. Certainly everybody is working together to achieve the aims of that strategy.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

We understand that the S.P.P.P. will lead on legislative changes but then this will fall under your remit.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes. The way that it works is, for example, if there is anything legal that needs changing I would be the lead Minister for anything that is to do with justice. The Minister for Health and Social Services would be the Minister for anything to do obviously with health. S.P.P.P. is the central policy function there, so officers within there would prepare the work, do the policy work, working to the Minister for Health and Social Services or working to me, and then they would feed that through into the law drafting process.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay. So you will bring changes to the Assembly?

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes, absolutely.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Great, okay. Referring to the 5 overarching aims of the strategy and the underlying objectives, what are the priorities to address first? I could not really see what was prioritised.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I think everything under that strategy is a priority and everything has to be given equal priority. You have got people who might argue that the alcohol focus is most important because of the public health focus. There are other people who might say the drug element of it is more important from a law perspective or a public health perspective. Again, such is the breadth of the strategy that each department has a particular focus. Clearly Justice and Home Affairs focus is going to be around enforcement. From a building a safer community framework perspective, it is going to be about harm reduction, it is going to be about promoting community safety. From a public health perspective, that again is a different focus. So everything in that strategy is a priority and it will be prioritised by different departments in different ways.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

For example, the States of Jersey Police will have particular priorities, Customs and Immigration as well, and what might those be?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes. The States of Jersey Police and Customs will be very much about the enforcement aspect of that, making sure that they are appropriately resourced, making sure that they are developing appropriate intelligence networks, making sure that they are on top of anti-smuggling, all of those different things, making sure that they are on top of any trends that we have in new drugs that are coming in. We know that some of these new psychoactive substances, the actual composition of them can change at a moment's notice, so it is about being on top of those. The Misuse of Drugs Advisory Council can consider those to be illegal and they can be enforced by the police and Customs.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay, thanks. There is mention of a substance use service forum and a substance use strategic group. They have not been set up yet, have they?

The Minister for Home Affairs: No.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Do you know what the plans might be for those?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Again, that falls within the remit of the Minister for Health and Social Services but what I would say is that this substance use strategy is very closely aligned to the building a safer community framework. It has to be. The previous B.a.S.S. (Building a Safer Society) strategy was building a safer society and substance use strategy. This is the first time that we have moved it out of Justice and Home Affairs and given it a health focus. Certainly some of the discussions that we are thinking around over the B.a.S.S. framework is who are the best people to be sitting on these different groups and making sure that we are reducing duplications for a really small Island. The police chief sits on everything because they are so related. We are looking at, for example, a building a safer community - we are calling it a steering group - supervisory group and it might be that it can perform the dual role around substance as well, but we are not quite there yet.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Thanks. When I read through the strategy I wondered why some of this legislation review work has not already been done - for example, the review of the Misuse of Drugs Order 2009 - to assess if it is fit for purpose. Is there a reason why none of this was done before?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

You would have to address that to the Minister for Health and Social Services.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay. When we were talking about the priorities before, we touched on this a bit already. How will the substance use strategy impact on the business-as-usual work for the relevant services? As an example, there is an objective to be led by the States of Jersey Police and Customs and Immigration service to target commercial drug trafficking and organised crime groups. Will there be an additional focus or resource available or will that just be business as usual?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

That will be business as usual. What this strategy is doing is giving us a road to it and it is giving us a direction of travel. Everything that we know about harm reduction is that we should be targeting the people who are producing and dealing drugs as opposed to focusing all our efforts on personal users, for example. I would not expect, for example, States of Jersey Police to be focusing all their efforts towards enforcement on personal users. I would expect that to be in the intelligence area and enforcing at a greater level. Do you want to say something about that?

Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

First of all, I would say as far as the substance use strategy is concerned is that - and this may come as a surprise coming from a police chief - the fact that it focuses on health is the solution. What the police service and the customs and excise service do is we focus on the symptoms. We call that enforcement. That is not going to provide the solution to this problem, although you have only got to look in this week's J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post), and indeed last week's J.E.P., at the number of years of sentences that have gone to a number of individuals. We are busy and we are relentless in catching particularly the dealers and the suppliers that come and, if you like, attack our Island, but the thing that encourages me most is that we look at it from a health perspective. Health is the solution to this, not enforcement. The final point, you also may be aware that we reinvigorated the drug squad about 3 years ago now and they are equally as busy but, as the Minister has said, we focus on the suppliers, we focus on the dealers because that is where we get closer to cutting off the snake's head, if you like.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Thanks. My next question was going to be how will you measure the success of that objective but you are saying it is like business as usual for this, so it will be the same way it is already measured.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes. It is very difficult to measure success in this area, is it not? Do you have greater seizures because you are doing better enforcement? If you have fewer seizures, is it because people are getting better at smuggling? It is very difficult to know but one of the things that certainly the Public Health team do is they monitor trends and monitor what type of drug is coming into the Island and we will quite quickly know the impact of some of that from a health point.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

That is maybe how it is going to be monitored through health trends and so on. The strategy references increased public and political interest in moving towards models of decriminalisation and legalisation and mentions this in the objectives as well about specific policy options that fall under decriminalisation and legalisation aims. In terms of this 10-year strategy, when do you envisage that the Council of Ministers will consider anything to do with decriminalisation?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

As I said over a year ago, my intention is to have an in-committee debate about decriminalisation. It should not be in the too-difficult tray. We need to have a conversation about that and we need to understand the mood of the Assembly to understand to what extent we decriminalise, if at all. I am completely neutral about it, I have to say, completely on the fence, but I think one of the things that I think we have to point out is our drugs policy already is a kind of de facto decriminalisation. While possession of drugs and paraphernalia and the like are all offences under the Misuse of Drugs (Jersey) Law, the vast majority of those are dealt with at the Parish Hall Inquiry where for first-time offenders if you have drugs according to those that are listed through the Attorney General's

guidelines you can be dealt with at a Parish Hall . We have, effectively, decriminalised some of that low-level possession and that low-level possession then does not lead to a criminal conviction. The courts also can hand down community sentences but nonetheless that still does result in a criminal conviction. So there has been a sea change towards decriminalisation. I think we have seen that as well to some extent now that we have got medicinal cannabis. Lots and lots of people are prescribed medicinal cannabis. Many people find it extremely beneficial, so we have now got a 2- tier system. These are the debates that we need to have. We need to hear what people think and we need to act accordingly.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

That in-committee debate, I wonder when that might happen.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I am hoping we can get it in before the end of the year. We have got the strategy now. We have waited a long time for it. We need to get cracking and in order to get cracking on fulfilling some of these objectives, we need to understand the prevailing mood of the public and the Assembly.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

There would presumably be plenty of information available for people to see. Okay, I do have a question also about this 10-year period, which is how would progress be measured through that time? I know that you are saying that it may be measured partly through effects on health and so on, but are there any particular ways that things would be measured through Home Affairs?

[16:00]

The Minister for Home Affairs:

We would be focusing on outcomes certainly around the B.a.S.S. framework as well. We would be certainly looking for reductions in antisocial behaviour. We would be looking at a reduction in people coming through the criminal justice system, all of those other community safety initiatives that generally promote social modelling and social behaviour. There are so many stakeholders to this strategy, from the Youth Service to the Misuse of Drugs Advisory Council, the police and S.P.P.P. It is something that is for everybody.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

I had a question about the building a safer community strategy and asking for an update on that. I know you have already mentioned a few things about it. Is there anything else you want to add about that?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

We had a stakeholder final workshop and the strategy, the framework, is in final draft. We are hoping again to be publishing that in the autumn. We have got quite a lot coming up in the autumn. We are hoping to be publishing that in the autumn because, as a convening framework for other strategies, it is going to be quite useful.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Yes, it will be. There is an extra question I want to ask and this might be more for the Health Department. Considering that a lot of work has gone into the strategy, we were surprised that when the press releases went out and so on there was no link to the actual strategy, no links, no social media promotions, nothing, as if it is not really being promoted. Do you have any thoughts on that?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It belongs to the Health Department.

Deputy C.D . Curtis : Yes, okay. Thank you.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Minister, can you please advise what feedback you have received from the Customs and Immigration services about the I.D. (identification) card scheme used for French day-trippers this year?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

The feedback has been very good. The pilot I.D. scheme was very well received, not only by Jersey but also by the French, in particular. A third of all day-trippers coming to Jersey with Condor and Manche Iles are using French national I.D. cards. If anybody got to wander around town in the last few months as well, it is brilliant. We have got loads of groups back, sporting groups, people who just could not have come before. They anticipate over the next couple of months, so the full summer season, that 50 per cent of their day-trip passengers will come in on French I.D. cards, so it is certainly something that is being well used. It is clearly something that we wanted that has had an impact on the market.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

What sort of measure of success does Customs and Immigration use to monitor this particular scheme?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Well, we have not lost anybody. What happens is that people get on the boat in France and staff know that it has to be French I.D. cards only, so we know that Condor and Manche Iles are turning people away who have different I.D. cards. That is the first check. The second check is arriving here and the difference in Jersey is that you are greeted by a human Customs and Immigration officer whereas in some of the other areas it is an e-gate, it is a machine. Then what happens is the ferry companies have an obligation to let Customs and Immigration know if one of the passengers does not turn up for their return journey. To the best of my knowledge, that has only happened on one occasion and while the Customs officers were round at the office, a Frenchman came rushing in, running up the pier because he had missed the boat. As I say, we have not lost anybody, so everybody who has come in has gone out, so that shows that the system has worked very well so far.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Have you had any feedback on this one from the ferry operators?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Just that they are very happy with it. I think we have had a request to extend the scheme beyond 30th September. I have been quite rigid about that because we did say to the U.K. during our discussions that this was a very time-limited pilot and that we would do a proper evaluation. That evaluation will probably start in the middle of August and we will have a look because I think if it has been so successful there is probably no reason not to continue into the winter months, particular with Condor because obviously they are a year-round service, but it would be continuing on exactly the same terms, so only French I.D. cards and only for the day at this point.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

That was my follow-up question; if you do intend to carry on with this scheme next year.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It has been so successful, but let us see the formal evaluation and then plan how we are going to develop that for next year.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

We also heard about the potential for a crossing to Gorey. If the I.D. scheme has been successful, is it something that you can replicate or maybe explore for Gorey?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It is not the access to Immigration officers that is the issue with Gorey. I do not think Gorey is a functioning port anymore but if Gorey was to become a functioning ...

The Connétable of Grouville :

Do not look at me. It is in St. Lawrence .

The Minister for Home Affairs:

If Gorey was to become a functioning port and we were to receive commercial ferries in there, clearly Immigration would be part of that equation and part of the costing to get that up and running. I would welcome it. I remember the old days when we had 3 or 4 services going from Gorey at least, literally taking hundreds and hundreds of passengers backwards and forwards, and I would welcome that. I do believe there are some structural issues but that is an issue for Ports of Jersey.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Thank you for that, Minister. We understand that you have recently signed a public Ministerial Decision approving an update to the work permit policy in order to add nursery practitioners and assistants to the list of skilled workers. Please could you update us on when that change will come into effect?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It is in effect now. It was in effect once I signed the order and it is not just the early years' practitioners. We have also added a new temporary route for the seagoing fishing industry and skilled routes for fishing trades and ships officers as well.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

With regard to the nursery staff, please can you describe the process that occurred to get that update to the policy? What did you have to do?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

One of the things that I was concerned about was the quality and the safeguarding issues because our childcare industry over here, as you know, is very highly regulated. We need to make sure that people are appropriately qualified, they are appropriately D.B.S. (Disclosure and Barring Service) checked, appropriately referenced, et cetera. When the industry first came to Immigration with the business case for this, the first thing that I asked them to do was go and speak to C.Y.P.E.S. (Children, Young People, Education and Skills) and in particular the C.E.Y.S. (Children and Early Years Service), so that they could understand exactly what level of qualification was required - I think it was cache level 3 and above - and also to speak to agencies like the Jersey Childcare Trust, just to triangulate so that I could understand the level of need for this type of service and what the difficulties were with the industry. I think the business case that came back was pretty strong and, of course, we have an objective to get as many people as economically active as we possibly can but, of course, that is very difficult if you have not got nursery places and the early years placements for that. Certainly Jersey Early Years Association, who are the only provider of childcare between the ages of nought and 3, were finding it extremely challenging getting qualified staff, notwithstanding that we have got great services at Highlands delivering certificate diplomas in childcare, delivering the degree in childcare and education. One of the issues with the degree seems to be people get the degree and then decide to go off-Island and be primary school teachers and do not go into the sector.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

This is one of the things that we cover as well, of course, and we are so aware of nurseries sometimes having to cut their hours back and so on.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, and staff well-being. I think this will be a welcome addition.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

With these particular new skilled workers coming in, do you have any information of how many potential numbers of those vacancies will be filled by the skilled workers coming in?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It was mentioned in the business case. For some reason, the number 30 appears in my mind but do not quote me on that. We will come back to you. We will see what was in the business case and come back to you.

The Connétable of Grouville : Is that your age, Minister?

The Minister for Home Affairs: If only.

The Connétable of Grouville : Maybe.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

The change of the policy effectively provides the industry with access to skilled work permit holders. As part of the process of approving this change, what background work did the Government do with the early years sector to see how the industry would provide support and information to anyone coming in to work on these particular work permits, any new skilled people?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Not other than the existing information that we have worked hard to upgrade about coming to Jersey, what that will involve, social security and the like and the ask of the recruitment agencies and the nurseries themselves to make people aware of the context of Jersey.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée : Thank you for that, Minister.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Road safety campaigns. It was recently reported that the States of Jersey Police would be cracking down on late night speeding. Can you provide some updates about the numbers of people caught speeding as part of this operation?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I will hand that over to the chief of police.

Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

Thank you, Constable. There is that language, is there not, "cracking down" and "top cop says" and all that sort of stuff. I would say that probably one of the most frequent things that come into my inbox is speeding ...

The Connétable of Grouville : Me too.

Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

... and also what I would describe as antisocial driving. I think it is a scourge on all of our Parishes and it is a genuine quality of life issue. It impacts on people's lives on a daily basis and it is clear because of what comes in on my inbox. About 2 years ago we introduced Operation Canvas and I delegated the responsibility for that delivery in terms of how we deal with road safety and road safety campaigns to Inspector O'Connor, who I would say has done a really good job in, first of all, highlighting the importance and recognising it as a priority within the States of Jersey Police. You asked me a question about what has happened. Well, we relaunched Canvas on 25th June and that is supported by a fairly sophisticated intelligence package where we identify where we think our key hotspots are, where the key individuals are. It may surprise the panel that this is not just a group of people who rock up on an evening. This is organised. This is very well organised, we know that, but so is States of Jersey Police and indeed so are the Honorary Police, because we do this hand in glove with them. We have identified a number of the key hotspot locations - they are all listed here; I will not be divulging them just yet - where we do speed checks and we also do road checks to look at the safety of vehicles, because regrettably we have come across a number of vehicles that are just simply not safe to be on our roads and we do that with D.V.S. (Driver and Vehicle Standards). Since the commencement of the operation we have identified 35 vehicles that each of these will now receive a letter as part of a more proactive response where we say, to be brutally honest: "We know who you are" and we advise them to stop. If we continue to get further concerns and complaints ... because, as the panel may know, very prominent on the States of Jersey Police website, again because I have looked at it just before coming here, is a portal where you can complain about antisocial driving.

The Connétable of Grouville : That was my next question.

Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

Good. I have managed to avoid one question. So you can report it and we urge people to do that. Fourteen drivers have received words of advice, 5 drivers have been given a Parish Hall Inquiry. Approximately about a year ago now, I think - time flies - there was one particular driver who, among others, posted them driving at utterly ridiculous speeds in the middle of the night. If anybody had been on the other side of that road they would have perished, as indeed would the driver. That person, after a fairly long inquiry, found himself in front of the magistrate and was given 6 months imprisonment.

[16:15]

That should serve as a major deterrent to anyone who is thinking to do anything in this activity, not least of which I will also encourage taking possessions including cars. I hope not to have to do that but this is a serious matter. However, on the wider speeding issue, the day-to-day speeding, the antisocial driving also, only yesterday one of my senior team met with a behavioural science company who have worked with the States before to look at not just about the enforcement but how does speeding and antisocial driving become something that is almost like seatbelts. The vast majority of people now wear seatbelts and they do it straightaway, do they not? The behavioural science people use this phrase "nudge". How can we better get it so it comes within our public psyche that that is just an unacceptable thing to do? I am not aware of anyone else trying to do that but the very first meeting was had yesterday about ... and of course this company are very keen to explore that sort of activity because it is different. We will, of course, continue with the enforcement. The final point, hopefully not answering any more of your questions, is of course you can only do this in partnership, we can only do this together. Again the credit goes to Inspector Callum O'Connor who has worked a lot with Infrastructure and Housing and with particular support from one of the

Minister's colleagues, Deputy Tom Binet . Additional resources have gone into finding resources for a person who would effectively be in charge of road safety for the Island, gathering data, which is what will drive our activity. That and behavioural science and enforcement, bringing all of our resources together, I think it provides us with quite an exciting opportunity.

The Connétable of Grouville :

I have to agree with you, Chief, that it takes up a lot of our time as well with complaints from parishioners and especially at 2.00 or 3.00 in the morning it seems to be quite prevalent with vehicles with absolutely no exhaust pipes at all. So we thank you for your efforts. Is there any additional cost, Chief, to that, do you think, or is it just business as usual?

Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

In terms of finding the additional resource from Infrastructure and Housing, money has been found, I am grateful to say, by that department. In terms of the additional cost to States of Jersey Police, that is part of our normal business, so no additional costs.

The Connétable of Grouville :

We have noted that the Infrastructure and Environment Department is currently consulting the public on the speed limits review for some of the northern Parishes. Have the States of Jersey Police been involved in that consultation process?

Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

Not currently that I am aware of but we will happily be part of that consultation and can provide additional information should the consultation require it.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Yes. Have any other emergency services across the Home Affairs Department been involved in that consulting? No. Can you advise how the States of Jersey Police has been involved with Jersey's forthcoming road safety strategy?

Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

As I have said, since I nominated Inspector O'Connor to it, we have had enormous involvement in the strategy. Indeed, we have got our own road policing strategy as well. The Minister has heard me say a number of times that there are too many strategies going on at any one time within our Island, I have to say, lots of strategies and lots of reviews. I am genuinely confident about what we can do now we have an overarching strategy with a desire to get better data because that is what we need, because it is the data that will drive the activity. As I have already said, I am probably as excited as I have been about the prospect of not necessarily dealing with the day-to-day enforcement, but finding long-term solutions. That is what we need to do.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Has there been any move to introducing A.N.P.R. (automatic number plate recognition) speed cameras?

Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

We have had that sort of speed camera or A.N.P.R. in the past, and I can see the Minister looking over to me right now. The issue is not the technology. The issue is how do you do the back of house. If an A.N.P.R. camera was put on the Avenue with a huge memory to keep taking those photographs, my suggestion would be that memory would probably be full within about the first couple of hours because that is the current ... there is too much speeding going on, particularly on the straight bits of road. Again, Inspector O'Connor is now looking at other forms of technology, so mobile cameras that can be deployed very easily in quite difficult spots, not only to act as a deterrent but also the technology that comes with it. What we must overcome, though, is how do you then deal with the amount of work that comes with it, so the back-office function, because that will be very demanding. We are going to progress with looking at the technology that will have some form of number plate recognition but again, as you have heard the Minister say repeatedly on a number of other things, we only do that in consultation and collaboration not only with our Honorary Police colleagues, government colleagues, but also Islanders as well.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Our frustration for policing within our Parishes is there are only a few spots within the Parish you can use a speed gun for it, for example, because you have certain criteria and it is quite frustrating from our point of view so, good.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Can I just ask for clarification of one of the things you said or a bit more detail? You said that 35 vehicle owners have got advisory letters about their speeding. Out of that group, was that the 5 who were going to a Parish Hall Inquiry or was that others as well?

Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

It is not clear on my notes here. I suspect that other 5 is different to the 35. I should also say that since July this year 40 people have also been reported for the manner of driving as well, so that is in addition to the 35 that have come up in our intelligence reports as repeatedly "you are one of those". We have done that once before already. Again, you might see that as a different shift. That is States of Jersey Police saying: "Frankly, we are asking you. You have been warned but if you come up again then we will directly target you", which indeed we have done, which is probably where the 5 drivers come from.

Deputy C.D . Curtis : Okay, thanks.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Thank you very much. We were concerned at the beginning of our tenure as a panel about the mental health incidents that you were dealing with as a team. Could you provide us with details of the number of mental health incidents that have been responded to by the police so far this year to give us an idea if that is improving?

Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

Yes, and can I just say from the outset I am grateful for the panel's interest. The demand on States of Jersey Police through people with mental health crisis is still too high, it is still way too high. Indeed, even on the BBC website today we have police in England to attend fewer mental health calls. We are not alone. The question is: is the police service the best agency to use if someone is ... this does not necessarily work that well but if someone is in some sort of medical crisis ... and I am not going to look over to the far right of this table here. If someone falls over and breaks their leg, they do not tend to call the police. We have a tendency to call the police if people are in mental health crisis. Now, it could be that that crisis may offer up other threats and they are the threats that of course the police should deal with, but the Police Minister for England and Wales is saying that as a result of its right care, right place - I will talk a bit more about that in a minute - it is expected to reduce demand on the police by 20 to 30 per cent within the next 2 years. Going back to Jersey, you have asked for some numbers. So far this year we have been to a total of 554 mental health incidents since 1st January. That 554 is, I will say, still far, far too many for the police to attend. However, building on what I have just read from England and Wales, it equates to a 30 per cent reduction compared to the same period last year, just under 30 per cent. Also we have an Article 36 power which provides the power of a police officer to detain someone who is in that mental health crisis. That takes an enormous amount of time because it means taking that person who is unwell ordinarily to the hospital and then time for them to be assessed. I am pleased to say that in terms of the Article 36 detentions, we have so far this year seen a 27 per cent reduction. These are big percentages but I will also say they are big percentages on already big numbers, but the direction of travel is really good. I do not wish to pre-empt your next question, which could be why. The reason I think why that is, the relationship - and it goes back to the point that the Minister has already made - is in my notes here, and I smiled when I read my notes. I have given the responsibility of this to one of my chief inspectors, Mark Hafey, and one of my inspectors, Rob Manners. It says here: "We have regular one-to-one meetings which supports open and honest conversations." I

think that is code but under the leadership of Andy Weir, he and I enjoy open and honest conversations and it is my view, overly-simplified, that open and honest conversations deliver these sorts of results. We still await the Article 36 suite. I think we have been waiting for the Article ... is that the next question, sorry? I hesitate to look across to the Minister but on her appointment at my first official meeting with her she asked me: "Have we got the Article 36 suite?" I think we have been waiting for that suite longer than we have been waiting for the changes in the police regulations. I have been, as I mentioned in the last panel meeting, to see the suite with the Minister. It is a fantastic opportunity. It is still delayed but it is now estimated to open and police are saying next month.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Yes, that was my next question and nothing pleases us more because we were, as I said, very concerned about it is not good for the patient, it is not good for the officers, it is taking a lot of time and they really need to be in the right place and not in custody with you. I think that could not be more true. Clinique Pinel was going to be operational earlier but, as you quite rightly said, it is not going to be operational until September. The expectations at that point were for it be operational in June. Can you advise how the States of Jersey Police has been kept up to date with this progress? Obviously that is clear.

Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

In fact I came from the strategic board earlier on today, chaired by Andy Weir, as I have already mentioned. We have really good, effective engagement and even when there are day-to-day issues, of which there inevitably are, where the systems and processes do not always work, we are able to deal with them very quickly in what has been described to me in that open and honest way. That is the only way we will get progress, while I am saying to you I am still concerned about the level of demand. The police service is often described as a service of last resort. It very often is. What is happening here is that people in the need of ... what can be worse than a police officer turning up when you are having a medical crisis? That is not the best look, is it? We are there to care for people. I am genuinely delighted with the results. I am not coming to you saying 2 or 3 per cent; I am saying 30 per cent and 27 per cent. The challenge now is to keep that going.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

It is a big change, is it not?

The Connétable of Grouville :

Yes. I think that 31(a) has already been answered. We are conscious of the time.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Yes. Are you able to carry on for a bit longer?

The Connétable of Grouville : You have got another appointment.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes, we will carry on.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay, thanks. I have some questions now about the prison service. Please could you provide the panel with some further details about the plans for developing education provision at the prison?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Education provision at the prison at the moment is a combination of directly-employed teachers, some commissioned work we are exploring with Highlands and the voluntary sector for subjects that might be useful in educating prisoners that are not inside the core offer.

[16:30]

We have recently trained a number of prison officers in delivering accredited programmes, so that is like a train the trainers. They are increasing the offer in most of the areas of employability. We have a high level of painting and decorating, a professional industrial cleaning qualification and also the risk training. We have got a mock inspection in all areas of education in October and we have been lucky enough to have C.Y.P.E.S. offer us an experienced education inspector to assist with that so that we can get some sort of governance around the education provision.

Deputy C.D . Curtis : That is in September?

The Minister for Home Affairs: October.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

October. I was thinking as well particularly about the young offenders. Are there actual teachers available for them?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

We have not got very many young offenders there but they are part of the directly-employed teachers who will be providing education to them.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay. I had another question on whether there is capacity to expand this, but you said there is going to be this assessment.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

We have got a mock inspection in all areas in October of education.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

That will bring out the needs, will it?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Absolutely, and again we have got a qualified, experienced education inspector helping us with that.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay. Please could you provide an update on the status of the prison improvement phases and what is the next project phase?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I have recently signed a Ministerial Decision to approve the proposed outworker wing, so that was the one outside the prison. It becomes a more affordable and manageable project, which is to demolish the old administration block, do some significant enabling work under the road, modernise a small unit within the prison for prisoners working outside the prison and set up a temporary pop- up coffeeshop and then initiate planning permission for a longer-term vision of a coffeeshop outside the prison with sustainable credentials including a bicycle hub. That is slightly different from what was proposed all those years ago and one of the reasons for that was we were going to have a wing outside the prison for people who were on early release but I think the risk profile of our prisoners proved that that was probably unnecessary because these people would get conditional early release anyway. So in order to repurpose what we were doing there, that has been the proposition. We have got quite a big investment ongoing in maintenance. Some of even the modern wings are nearing the end of their life, so we have had to have ... a number of boilers, heating and water are now 15 years old and they need replacing. We are working with Jersey Property Holdings to look at things that are more environmentally friendly, so there will not be hopefully ... we are doing away with oil and gas if possible. Again, we have seen the benefits of working much more closely with Jersey Property Holdings to make sure that government buildings align with the Government direction on sustainable development. The prison houses, those are now transferring over to the Jersey Property Holdings estate and we are aiming for a smooth transition in handing those over at the beginning of 2024 in line with the Government Plan.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Are those the ones at the start?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, the ones that are behind the prison, so that is a positive.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

There was a Ministerial Decision also about the accommodation. Was it that one?

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes, that one.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay. So it is not about alternative provision for living accommodation. It is a handover to Jersey Property Holdings. Okay. So that will not make any difference to the people there. During the Government Plan review last year we learnt about the community use of buildings like Parish surgeries and the café. You have already mentioned about the pop-up café and the plans for a more permanent one. Is there anything else around this area in progress on that, parish surgeries?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I think the Parish surgery part is it just means the new Len Norman wing of the prison is available for other people to use, the meeting facilities and training facilities and obviously it can be catered, it has decent parking, good access, that sort of thing, a really nice view. Again, it is about having buildings that are for multi-use and not just for prison use. That is very important.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay. Now we have got some questions about the water in the prison. This was brought up to us by quite a few families.

The Minister for Home Affairs: The water?

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Yes. The water supply in the prison, some people have said they have been getting eczema and so on and we understand that includes some recycled water. You may need to come back to us on this.

The Minister for Home Affairs: I think I definitely will, yes.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

If I read the question out to you then. Could you confirm whether the water supply at the prison includes recycled water? If so, please could you provide some detail about how the water recycling system works and what it is used for? Is the water treated and how is it tested? This has come up to us from particular people in the families.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I cannot answer the question. I simply do not know the answer. It is not anything that has come to me via the Independent Prison Monitoring Board. If prisoners or families had raised it with them, I would have expected it to come to me, but I will find out and let you know.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

We have not seen it in any reports either. It is from specific people and their families who came to us. Now we have got some questions on the ...

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

I am reading, so bear with me. This question is in regard to violence against women and girls. Minister, we have seen the plans submitted for the new Sexual Assault Referral Centre to replace Dewberry House. It was noted in the complementary news release and subsequent press reports that the project was a total cost of £5 million. When we last reviewed the Government Plan, this panel evidenced that the total approved cost for that budget was £4.291 million. Please could you advise why there is an additional £700,000 in reported costs?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I would hand that over to the chief officer but she has obviously had to leave early. What I would say is those are inflationary costs. I think every States project has seen inflationary costs. It is not necessarily because we are doing anything different. It is just to cope with the cost of inflation in the building materials in the building plan. The planning application is in. It was submitted last month, a significant milestone. I am really happy that all that is fine.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

That is really good, but could we ask for some clarification of the costs?

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes, of course.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Would you say this extra funding issue will be funded by the Criminal Offences Compensation Fund?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It is possible that the extra funding will not come from the Criminal Offences Compensation Fund. Certainly the initial amount came from that but the money will ... this is an important project and the money will be found.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Thank you. Can you please confirm whether the Government has now entered into a service level agreement with Jersey Action Against Rape for work at Dewberry House?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

No, I cannot confirm whether there is a service level agreement. What I can say is we have supported a request for additional funding to support several initiatives, including the provision of additional housing support, expanded training for volunteer counsellors, improvements to their technology to speed up their referral process, but I am not sure about the status of the service level agreement or indeed whether it is still required.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

We may follow up on that later if that is okay. Minister, please would you provide an update on the work of the taskforce working to review violence against women and girls?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

We received a briefing on the research findings from the public call for evidence back in April 2023. Following on from that, the taskforce invited a number a number of local stakeholders to participate in information sessions on the key themes that were highlighted from those research findings. All of those stakeholders attended taskforce meetings and presented on how their service functioned, their organisational response to victim survivors of V.A.W.G. (violence against women and girls) and how that response could be improved. It was a very interactive session because the taskforce wanted to make sure that they knew and understood the way that those services were operating before they made their final report and recommendations. Information sessions about the work have been held across the board, so Housing, Immigration, Education, Family Courts, the criminal justice system, Health, media, management of perpetrators within the prison service and Probation. They have been supplemented by a series of webinars hosted by experts nationally and internationally on various topics, including immigration abuse, modern slavery, extreme pornography and online abuse, economic abuse and the role of the education on harmful sexual behaviour in young people.

There has been a considerable corpus of work gone into this taskforce, both to gather information and to give information. The taskforce reviewed the proposed taskforce report structure in early July and have subsequently shared their feedback on the content and priorities. Originally they were thinking about publishing at the end of July and August. I asked for that not to happen. I do not think August is a very good time to publish a report and recommendations of what is going to be such magnitude really. I am optimistic that it will be the second week of September. Again, I said about there seems to be quite a lot coming up in September but I certainly did not want this to come out in the summer when a lot of people were away on holiday. The panel, I think we have got a briefing scheduled for you in September, so that will be before the taskforce reports and we will share the key findings with you before that. I have to say, I think it has been a really comprehensive piece of work and we need to think very carefully in a very considered way, give ourselves time to process the report, give ourselves time to process the findings and to understand how we are going to take the recommendations forward. It is very important that we give ourselves time to consider it.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée : Thank you. That is it from me.

The Connétable of Grouville :

One more quickly? It is about pyrotechnics, a little jollier. There have been some updates to the pyrotechnics regulations. Please can you provide us with an update on that and how that is proceeding?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes. I think we mentioned last time we have reviewed the work previously carried out. I attended a Comité des Connétable s to give them an overview of what we were thinking. Those proposals are now being developed for further consideration and they will need to go back to public consultation because I think it has been such a long time since the initial ones were proposed. My own view is that there is insufficient control at the moment of the types of fireworks and pyrotechnics available to the public and we need to put some controls around those. One of the intentions of any changes will be to tighten who is allowed to buy them and use them. I think the consultation will happen in November.

The Connétable of Grouville : 5th November maybe?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Potentially. Again, it is something that has been hanging around for a long time so we need to get to grips with it but we have obviously got competing drafting pressures really; which do you pick first? But that will be done.

The Connétable of Grouville : That is it.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Thank you very much. That is it. We are all done.

[16:44]