Transcript - Quarterly Public Hearing with the Chief Minister

Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel Quarterly Hearing

Witness: The Chief Minister

Friday, 19th May 2023

Panel:

Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier South (Chair)

Deputy M.B. Andrews of St. Helier North (Vice-Chair) Deputy L.J. Farnham of St. Mary , St. Ouen and St. Peter

Witnesses:

Deputy K.L. Moore of St. Mary , St. Ouen and St. Peter , The Chief Minister Connétable A.N. Jehan of St. John , Assistant Chief Minister

Ms. S. Wylie, Chief Executive Officer

Mr. D. Woodside, Senior Legal Adviser, Law Officers' Department

Mr. M. Grimley, Chief People and Transformation Officer

Ms. M. Mathias, Director of Delivery and Improvement

Mr. P. Wylie, Group Director of Policy

[11:32]

Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier South (Chair):

Welcome to this quarterly public hearing with the Chief Minister with the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel. For the benefit of the tape, we will go round and introduce ourselves. I am Deputy Sam Mézec , the chair of the panel.

Deputy M.B. Andrews of St. Helier North (Vice-Chair):

I am Deputy Max Andrews , the vice-chair of the Corporate Services Panel.

Deputy L.J. Farnham of St. Mary , St. Ouen and St. Peter :

I am Deputy Lyndon Farnham .

The Chief Minister:

Deputy Kristina Moore , Chief Minister.

Assistant Chief Minister:

Andy Jehan , Assistant Chief Minister.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

There are some officers here. If you get called up to help with detail on a question please introduce yourself at that point. We have an hour and a half scheduled for this. Can you confirm that you have read and understood the Scrutiny Panel statement before you?

The Chief Minister: Yes.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Excellent, thank you. We will begin. The first round of questions are to ask for some updates on some of the items in your Ministerial and delivery plans. This is just for updates as opposed to examination of all the fine detail. We will attempt to go through some of these reasonably quickly, with possibly the exception of the first one because it is quite a big one. That is to ask you if you could update us on the work that you are doing towards establishing a common population policy.

The Chief Minister:

With pleasure but would you like me to invite the relevant officers to the table at this point?

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Let us see how we go because it might not be necessary for all of the questions. You may feel able to answer them yourself and that will save time. But if it gets to a point of detailed words necessary then let us know.

The Chief Minister:

The Population and Skills Ministerial Group yesterday considered the draft of the population policy, which we intend to publish in the middle of next month.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Could you give us any sneak peaks or a preview of what we might expect in that?

The Chief Minister:

As I said, it is a draft population policy and I think it would be wrong to give too much identification at this point in time.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Could you sum up what you intend the policy to achieve?

The Chief Minister:

As a Government, we have taken a different approach to that of the previous Government and we recognise the significant restraint there is in the workforce currently. But also when we look to the future and we think looking to the future and considering the future needs of our community and the ability to deliver a strong and growing economy has to be taken into account when we consider population. Also, of course, we have to consider balance and that means being able to offer a good quality of life to all members of the population. We have come across some surprising issues, practical issues, such as the lack of investment in our drainage, which also has an impact on our ability to deliver homes for the population. We balance the need for growth in supporting all members of our community now and into the future with practical application of what is and is not deliverable in terms of delivering homes and a good quality of life to all Islanders.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Did you set out to put a policy together based on any specific aspirations on the numbers of net migration, as in were you looking to reduce or were you looking to maintain or increase? Did you set out with any particular desire on that question?

The Chief Minister:

We have taken a considered approach and through this process I think there are some members of the Ministerial group who made it quite clear during the election process that they believe a net zero figure is the right way to go. I think that we have had some interesting discussion throughout this process and looked at the facts that we have before us and the data that we have in order to make the right decisions and policy that we believe will be the start of a turning point for the Island.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

What kind of stakeholder engagement have you done in the run-up to coming up with this draft?

The Chief Minister:

This has mostly been through looking at data, and that is extremely clear when we look at particularly the demographic balance, dependency ratio and give consideration to the needs and challenges of our economy.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Is that there was not the kind of wider stakeholder, it was more internal within government examination?

The Chief Minister:

Yes, but of course it is the first of what is now an annual process.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

What is the timeline likely to be now that you have a draft? When do you think you will get to a stage of having a final one and when do you think that will be presented?

The Chief Minister:

As I said, at the middle of next month. Of course going back to your question about consultation and stakeholders, we see engagement as a really important part of government and we are constantly engaging with stakeholders in a variety of different sectors of the community, both in the public sector and the private sector, and we all take that extremely seriously and welcome engagement with all members of our community. The government - and I am sure we will touch on it - data as part of our engagement programme has set out ways of engaging with young people and older people within the People's Forum.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

We will get to that. We have something on our list on that.

The Chief Minister:

You did ask the question and I just wanted to make the point that we do not disregard stakeholders at all. It is a process of constant action and activity.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

We have a couple of questions specifically on that slightly later but before that anything on this?

Deputy L.J. Farnham : No, thank you.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

There was a press release from Government in October titled the Population and Skills Ministerial Group: launch to tackle labour shortages. Could you identify for us what actions have been taken since October following that?

The Chief Minister:

Could we invite an officer to the table? They might be able to give more detail.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

To the table and to the microphone, and remember to introduce yourself please.

Group Director of Policy:

Good morning, I am Paul Wylie. I am the group director of policy in the Cabinet Office. Through the chairing of the Population and Skills Ministerial Group by the Chief Minister we have been developing the population policy for publication next month, as she said. But we have also not been resting on our laurels. There have been a series of actions to make sure that we are also dealing with labour shortages right now. For example, next week, the Assembly will be debating changes around unmarried partners. We have enabled homeowners to rent out a room tax free and encouraging an increase in their capacity to housing stock. Overseas we have introduced work permit reforms, as you will have seen. And also this is something that we have been doing since September, working with trade bodies and the support agencies to make sure that there are high ethical standards for employee rights, and very shortly we will be clarifying that. Our final 2 things: access to housing for key workers. Fundamentally we have been reforming how that happens within government to make sure that we are bringing over nurses and teachers and giving them the best start on the Island. Finally, supplementary planning guidance has been changed so that we can hopefully enable particularly temporarily employees to access a different type of housing stock in the future. Where it is more about making sure that they can access cheap affordable housing.

The Chief Minister:

We can give you some more detailed information about the recruitment and retention project, if you would like. I would be happy also to give a couple more points.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

I am sure that will be helpful. Can I ask my next question just in case it aligns with what you wanted to say anyway? You mentioned teachers, nurses, et cetera, what other particular employment gaps have you identified that you are hoping to have resolved through some of these changes?

The Chief Minister:

As part of our constant process of engaging and listening to the public, we are aware in the private sector that there is continuing tightness of supply in many different sectors.

Within the private sector we have had a series of engagement sessions with Jersey Business, with Chamber, with the Hospitality Association, Farmers Union, et cetera. As you will be aware, there are high numbers of vacances in several areas. The most numerous being hospitality, construction and agriculture. What we have been trying to do is make sure that all of those elements, through the Population and Skills Ministerial Group, cover both the public sector and the private sector.

The Chief Minister:

Care is one of those as well and I think we may have mentioned before the Control of Housing and Work Law change that we made through Ministerial Order, which is to enable people coming over to work in that particular sector can now access entitled accommodation and not just registered accommodation.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

This is the last question from me on this subject, but the Deputy Chief Minister had made public comments about incentives to entice people over the age of 50 to partake in the labour market. What kind of things have you considered on that?

Group Director of Policy:

A lot of the issues around working in the older age is sometimes to do with myth; concern that they would impact on their pensions in some way. So what we have been doing is going through each sector and trying to understand. For example, there was concern around teachers returning to work. Teaching organisations will be able to show that that is not an issue. More generally this is about making Jersey a welcoming place to want to work and so a lot of our activity is around making it as good as possible in order to entice people to do something.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

We recently had a briefing on the 2(1)(e) policy, which was very helpful, thank you. Could you elaborate on the stakeholder consultations that you took to inform the change in policy?

The Chief Minister:

So we met with both individuals and also with some groups and, in particular, a subpanel of the Jersey Finance Group, which is a group of different industry representatives who speak for and on behalf of the industry.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

Could you outline what steps were taken to consider the economic and social impact of the changes?

The Chief Minister:

I think that is a matter of political judgment and decision-making, is it not? That of course is one of the things we also have met with the Jersey Funders Group, for example, and talked to them about philanthropic giving and some of the pressures that they are experiencing. That meeting, although perhaps not directly about 2(1)(e)s at the time, was rather helpful in our considerations and we would like to do more engagement with them.

[11:45]

I think I have already mentioned the need for a kitemark to help perhaps this group of people in the Island to identify, although not of course the individuals who are giving philanthropically. We know there are many extremely generous members of our community. If there was some sort of kitemark, like a national lottery style kitemark, that might help to identify so that members of our general community can see those projects that tangibly benefit from the philanthropic giving of our 2(1)(e) community.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

That is good because I think a lot of the work goes under the radar.

The Chief Minister:

One thing I would also like to add on this subject is that we did, in some of our considerations of applications recently, test the market somewhat in relation to the required contribution that has now increased under the new scheme, which comes into place in July. We feel quite confident, having been through that process, that the new weight that is being required of new incoming residents under the scheme will be well-received and is competitive. In fact, Deputy Andrews will be pleased to hear that we have managed to raise £600,000 for our skills fund.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

One final question: can you be sure that increasing the minimum entry price for property purchase is not going to have a detrimental impact on the local housing market? Did you do any work?

The Chief Minister:

One of the reasons that a minimum price for property purchase was introduced when the scheme was created was so that people applying for this residency type were not going to interfere in the property market that most locals participate in. Therefore, given the considerable price increases in the local property market, that it was the right time to increase that minimum price to protect the local property market.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

I understand, I do not disagree with that at all but was there any work or research done with the property sector to quantify that - I know some research was done a number of years ago - and if not it might be a good idea to do that at some stage just to be sure?

The Chief Minister:

There is a wealth of information available. We looked at the property that is available on the market on any given day and that provided us with a good guide. Of course there is also the bought and sold publication that is available for everybody to see.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

One extra from me on that subject. You are not proposing changing the 1 per cent part of the system. Could you explain what analysis, if any, you did on that and where the change in that would have been feasible?

The Chief Minister:

We sought advice from our Comptroller of Revenue on this point. We also gave some consideration and formed a part of our discussions with stakeholders and individuals, in fact, because the one change that was under consideration was a higher rate but removing the 1 per cent, which could have happened, that on balance it was decided that a lower rate and maintaining the 1 per cent was the most practical way forward at this particular time.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

The panel recognise that the report for engagement and information improvement review suggested a couple of workstreams that were to be delivered before June 2023. Could the panel be updated on those workstreams please?

The Chief Minister:

Unfortunately Deputy Stevenson is not able to be here today. She is participation in C.P.A. (Commonwealth Parliamentary Association) event so we cannot benefit from her. But I presume you are talking about the young youth participation programme and the Older Persons Living Forum.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

It was more to do with the government's line of communication. There was a paper that was released, and the panel had a private briefing with Deputy Stevenson in regard to the government's programme to engage Islanders and also including young people as well.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

I can see an officer is willing to assist on this.

The Chief Minister:

Paul is welcome to the table, thank you.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Sorry, to be a pain, but could you introduce yourself every time you come up to the table?

Group Director of Policy:

It is Paul Wylie, group director of policy in the Cabinet Office. As the Chief Minister said, it was part of our 100-day plan and we gave you a private briefing back in January with Deputy Stevenson. How can I help?

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

We just want to have some clarity in terms of the workstreams that officers are currently undertaking and where we are in terms of finalising those workstreams.

Group Director of Policy:

So far 14 of the recommendations have been delivered and the remainder of 25 are in active development. Most are likely to be delivered. There are some elements which are far more discrete, things like a use of qualitative researchers in the future, we do not think that is necessary. But it will still be closed off; it will still be completed in that period. It is all about whether or not we are actively going to do something or not.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

In terms of you said there was 25 still to do, how many of those do you think will still be deliverable before, say, June this year?

Group Director of Policy:

Not all of them had a June date but we have grabbed them and the green status, we are developing that with Deputy Stevenson, and I am sure she will want to brief the panel again when it is ready.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

You may want to stay just for this next line of questioning but we will see where we go. The next question to us was about the action 100-day plan, about the need to involve young people in policy formulation and decision-making. A quick question to start that off with is what kind of engagement and consultation have you been having with the acting Children's Commissioner since you have taken office? Has that been a communication you have frequently been having?

The Chief Minister:

We do meet with the acting Children's Commissioner, yes, as does the Minister for Children and Education.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

What kind of input has there been on government policies?

The Chief Minister:

Through the office, I think they always participate in and help to provide information but I think our youth participation is more aimed at directly engaging with young people. This morning I had the privilege of opening the Nature Summit and referred in my speech to the engagement that had been done about the extension to Coronation Park and the fact that the majority of people who did participate and give their views about the future extension of Coronation Park were young people who had some fantastic ideas and it was going to be exciting to see that being delivered.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

That being an example of a project; in terms of policy examples, what kind of engagement has there been?

Group Director of Policy:

In addition to Ministerial meetings we have policy officer official level meetings with the acting commissioner. It is important to state that her role is as a statutory independent so she is there to advocate on behalf of children and advocates on behalf of their needs to inform policy but it is not her job to agree it. That said, of course we can work with her on issues like youth detention, on how we make sure that the youth justice system more generally is working in the interests of the child as they go on.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

My next question is about the progress of the cultural diversity network. Is that something that you are involved in?

Group Director of Policy: Not so much.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Okay, that is fine. Thank you. The cultural diversity network is a scheduled 6-month review due to be published by the International Cultural Centre Steering Group in quarter 2 of this year. Where are we with that?

The Chief Minister:

Could Megan Mathias join us? The steering group has been meeting, I believe, and that work is progressing. I shall hand over to Megan.

Director of Delivery and Improvement:

Megan Mathias, director of delivery and improvement. Yes, our understanding is that the work is on schedule and that the steering group is meeting regularly. The activity is the schedule of cultural events over the course of the year. In terms of the longer-term future of the cultural centre, recommendations are being brought forward by the end of the year to propose options on that.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

What are we likely to see by the end of quarter 2 this year?

Director of Delivery and Improvement: In terms of the ...?

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Whether that will be outlining what the next steps are by the end of the year, but we understand that there is a 6-month review due to be published by the end of quarter 2 this year, is that still the case?

Director of Delivery and Improvement:

It is, but I do not have the detail on that but I can get it for you.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

The next question is about the talent attraction campaign to increase the number of apprenticeships. The question is: how is the paid internship programme being encouraged for the summer of this year and what lessons have been learned and result in actions taken forward from the previous programme?

Assistant Chief Minister:

We have made great progress, I believe. We have 68 paid internship placements across all departments for the summer. We had almost 100 applicants. These people work between 6 and 8 weeks this summer. In addition to that, the apprenticeship programme we have seen good progress there as well, with quite a number of areas taking up the opportunity, ranging from accountancy, data analysis, policy, property, vehicle management. We have 19 apprentices in place, 12 due to start and we are looking at a further 20 apprenticeships we have identified roles for.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

What kind of feedback are you getting from that so far? Are you noticing any trends in those applications; what is particularly popular and what needs to change?

Assistant Chief Minister:

I think what is encouraging is that we have such an increase in applicants. That comes from the people who experienced it in the past. I think we have seen growing confidence both from students but also from within the organisation where people have seen the value of having internships. I am not sure if you want to add anything, Mark.

Chief People and Transformation Officer:

Mark Grimley, the chief people and transformation officer. As always with these programmes, the sort of learning that we get and the feedback is about the support given in work, both to the apprentice and to the manager. Not all apprentices are job ready and they need additional support, so areas like Skills Jersey will provide coaching and support and training. One of the interesting areas is around older apprentices. So apprenticeships are not just for young people. We are seeing people doing career changes and finding new apprenticeships. I think the final thing is the engagement that we have with young people and with other agencies on the Island is increasing. We did a large skills fair last year with Skills Jersey. We were the most visited stands and what we were trying to do is demonstrate practically the range of skills needed within the government, the opportunities there, and what we are seeing are people not necessarily going to university but wanting to learn and earn at the same time.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

What happens to somebody when they complete the programme?

Chief People and Transformation Officer:

Most of these roles are being identified through vacancies and through workforce planning. There are a number of skills shortages and that is where we have been targeting, so it is highly likely that we they will receive a role within the government. Particularly around the technical areas where there is competition with the private sector, particularly in engineering and those areas, and accountancy. Once people join the government they want to stay and develop their career so we are not seeing an attrition to the private sector. Even if we did we see that as a benefit to the Island's economy as a whole.

Assistant Chief Minister:

One thing that is encouraging is that some people who have done the internship have continued to do some work during the year while they have been back at college. That is encouraging. For example, Infrastructure are keen to keep in touch with the people that have done the internships because they see them as filling some of those vacancies that Mark referred to.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Going forward then, are there any tweaks to this that you are considering to help even more people benefit from it or help develop their progression?

Chief People and Transformation Officer:

There is more that we need to do about supporting line managers. People who are doing apprenticeships are not technically ready and there is often a barrier there where there is more work and more time needed to allow them to train on the job. We have not been particularly good at succession plan and skills development in-house, so that is quite a shift for line managers. We have put it in the line management programme, the world class managers, and we are also looking at how we provide more support to young people. The final bit is about how we widen social responsibility. How we bring people into the workforce and give them more opportunities. Whether we set them challenges. There is a charity in the U.K. (United Kingdom) called Brathay that does challenges with apprentices, so we can send teams there. It is about offering that wider piece, not just the work.

[12:00]

The Chief Minister:

Would you like to know about the recruitment and retention on those as well?

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Not just yet. We have some other questions to get through. The final question on this subject area on the Ministerial and delivery plans was to just ask you if you have identified any slippage with timetable targets that you had initially planned for at the start? Has anything within that changed and do you think you might bring some stuff forward or push some stuff to later to make it more manageable?

The Chief Minister:

At this point in time, I think we are doing quite well in terms of timeframe.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

One thing that changed after the plans were first published was the financial services portfolio has been shifted around. How has that impacted, if it all, on those workstreams and any timetables within that?

The Chief Minister:

I do not think there has been any impact on those workstreams in particular. I think there were already a group of Ministers who were being briefed and resiling Ministerial Decisions in this area. At the moment the focus of the financial services team is dominantly on MONEYVAL.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

We saw a Ministerial Order very recently delegating certain functions on a long list of laws to Deputy Gorst and Deputy Millar . They both had quite long lists. How is it determined who was better suited to which delegations there?

The Chief Minister:

I think that is from mutual agreement.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

The next round of questions is going to focus on the Government Plan developments and I will hand over to Deputy Andrews to start that.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

Chief Minister, obviously the Executive have prior experience with one Government Plan under their wing. How will you be going into the next Government Plan and making sure that stakeholders are fully engaged and also have the ability to try to shape policy as well?

The Chief Minister:

When we set out the Government Plan last year we expressed how constrained the timeframe had been and this year we have done what we said we would do and started early; much earlier than would normally occur. So we are already discussing growth bids among Ministers and preparing underway because of course this is a fine balance to achieve in terms of increasing and improving public services to Islanders in the areas that they wish to see while also of course maintaining fiscal stability and dealing with what is, we expect, according to the income forecasting groups our predictions, a plateau in terms of revenue.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

I obviously just heard you mention there has been discussion about growth bids. When do you think non-Executive Members of the Assembly will have access to the Government Plan to then start appraising the Government Plan that will be brought forward?

The Chief Minister:

We intend to have the draft plan ready for Scrutiny and for non-Executive Members so that they have the full 12-week time period that would normally be expected.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

More so in terms of looking back at the previous Government Plan, are there going to perhaps be changes to this upcoming plan where there have maybe been lessons learned from the previous Government Plan?

The Chief Minister:

I think Corporate Services pointed to sustainable well-being, and that is a process of continuing improvement and learning as we ensure that sustainable well-being is reflected around the Government Plan. Also, I think you all pointed to having some more accessible formats of the Government Plan and now that we have slightly more time to prepare I hope that we will be able to deliver some more accessible formats for different members of our community, particularly something that is attractive and accessible for younger people.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Sorry, Deputy Andrews , Deputy Farnham just had a question.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

Just a quick question on growth bids. By how much were the growth bids oversubscribed from the Ministerial colleagues?

The Chief Minister:

As the Deputy will be aware, there are always a great deal of growth bids because people are keen to deliver in the various areas of responsibility and there are always many calls on public funds to continue to do more for the public.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

I know there is always that sort of negotiation juxtaposition, which is always healthy, but there has always been ... were you close to the budget? Were there tens of millions more requested? Hundreds of millions more? What was the feel for the ...?

Chief Executive Officer:

Suzanne Wylie, chief executive officer and head of public service. In terms of this year's growth bids, which I think is what you are referring to, they have come in ... we were anticipating, I would say first of all, that our income forecasts are going to be similar to our 2023 levels. We do not anticipate significant growths in our income forecasts, which is always the first thing that we look at in terms of how we are going to deal with growth bids. At this point in time, we do have an expensive number of bids. The process that we are going through with the full Council of Ministers involved in a really intense process, broken down into subgroups that are challenging each other on these bids, is to bring that down by almost a third.

Deputy L.J. Farnham : What was the figure?

Chief Executive Officer: £100 million.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

£100 million growth bids or £100 million more than were available.

Chief Executive Officer:

But it is a very early stage, I would need to stress that. A very early stage of this process that those bids come forward and the business cases behind those. So the stage that we are at is working out which of those were not a business case to be worked up in full and brought forward. I would not put too much store on that figure.

Deputy L.J. Farnham : Good luck.

The Chief Minister:

We are doing well so far.

Chief Executive Officer: We are.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

Also, as well, it is very important that we see the Executive communicate their message across clearly to the public in preparation for the Government Plan. How will this be done and also what changes will be made in terms of the communication that we have seen previously compared to the communication we will see this time round as well?

The Chief Minister:

We do not have anyone from our comms team here right at the moment but as we have more time we will be able to do a greater level of engagement and communication. Our narrative is that we are focused on affordability but also deliverability and meeting the Government's priorities.

Chief Executive Officer:

I think also the fact that we will not just be focused on where the new areas of growth might be, albeit they will be smaller than before. But also improvements to all our business as usual, as well. More clarity in terms of where those investments, in terms of growth, are being made and why and what impact that will have in terms of public services.

The Chief Minister:

One thing we are particularly mindful is that each growth bid often relates to a number of people that would be needed to deliver that growth bid, and it is a focus of us all to ensure that those are deliverable and achievable. That means being able to source people to do that delivery and not impact upon other sectors of the economy and the community.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

With saver growth bids that we have seen in previous years it seems as well there is a correlation, for instance, in increasing and growing headcount where I know there has obviously been some coverage of looking at technical efficiencies to try to minimise the amount of inputs to then generate more outputs. Do you think that is a message that potentially will be in this next Government Plan or will that not feature?

Chief Executive Officer:

I think that is a message and you are probably better at speaking on this than me.

Assistant Chief Minister:

It is certainly a message that is being discussed widely during the first round of discussions for growth bids. It is something that will be sustained. We have to look at alternatives. We have to look at technology. We have to look at partnerships because, yes, we need front line people, you cannot replace front line people, but in other parts of our organisation there are alternatives that we have to seriously consider.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

Do you think as well the political message perhaps needs to be mentioned in the Government Plan because when I was appraising the last Government Plan there did not really seem to be any clear indication in terms of what the actual intent was to try to improve the public sector?

The Chief Minister:

We are very much focused on performance. The productivity, as the Constable has just outlined, is a real area of focus.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

Just one thing, I know we have just touched on it previously, making sure as well that the Government Plan is readable and also accessible for younger people. What work is being done in preparation for the Government Plan being launched and obviously all of those areas being covered?

Chief Executive Officer:

I think we are very mindful of that. Obviously we are not quite at that stage as yet. But we are aware that those recommendations have been made and we would like to involve children and young people through the engagement process in terms of looking at what a version of the Government Plan might look like for them.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

Apologies, we have to have just 5 minutes now on the hospital. The first question is the C. and A.G. (Comptroller and Auditor General) published a report on 15th May entitled Learning from our previous hospital project so he was particularly critical of the 100-day review that was produced, which is guiding the process now. What is the Chief Minister's view on that?

The Chief Minister:

We always welcome the C. and A.G.'s responses and guidance and advice. I think one of the terms that the C. and A.G. uses, that we were overly ambitious, but I do not ever want to shy away from being overly ambitious because of course we are ambitious for the Island. I think what was very important in the 100-day report was that we found a way forward for the Island to deliver healthcare facilities that are both affordable and deliverable because the previous project, all indications were showing that the budget was increasing to such an extent that it was no longer deliverable.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

The previous hospital project would have come in probably quite a way over the £800 million approved by the Assembly, not least because of the delays ...

The Chief Minister:

Over £1 billion and growing.

... it will cost in the process. When I left the building partners and the hospital team had negotiated a fixed price contract that could have been signed for £830 million. That was the latest at that time. I think as inflation bit and the economy changed that started to go north. You have promised the public and the electorate, and possibly the Assembly as well, that this new programme can be delivered for considerably less than Overdale; do you still stand by that?

The Chief Minister:

If we look back at the 10-year process, of which I have either been in Government or scrutinised it, if we look back at one of the earlier projects - the dual site option - the reason that that was chosen over and above the other project that was in play at that time was that it was defined that the dual site option was a more affordable approach for exactly the same reasons that we are now looking to a multisite option to deliver an affordable and deliverable project. We also hear from the local construction companies that they would like to see Government engaging with and identifying projects that they can deliver. This approach also enables them to do so because we cannot forget the size and scale of the previous project meant that the previous Government chose to work with a major international company in order to do that and was looking to bring in a considerable number of people to work on the project.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

Of course that was a necessity because it is naïve to think that a project of that scale can be delivered by all on-Island contractors, so the brief was to work with our major international partner and use as much local construction industry as possible But do you still believe that the project that Deputy Binet is leading on can be delivered ultimately for less than the Overdale project, and you have to take into account the increase in the cost of borrowing?

[12:15]

I am not just talking about the capital cost. The factor in the increased running costs is a multiple ... the simple question: do you think it is going to come in less than Overdale would have cost, about the same or a bit more?

The Chief Minister:

We are not at the point of it being to have a costed project. I think all indications, and the reason why we engaged with a professional person who has a track record and experience of delivering complex hospital and healthcare facilities, was to gain that advice and insight. So the indications and the advice that we have received is that this is the most affordable and deliverable way forward. That is our commitment to the public. That is what we are focused on doing.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

Is it going to cost more or less?

The Chief Minister:

I told you that we are not at a stage ...

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

Or do you not know at the moment?

The Chief Minister:

... where we are able to deliver a costed version. I go back to what I said to you twice already, Deputy , is that the advice that we have received is that this way forward will be more affordable and therefore deliverable.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

Sorry to press the point, do you have any inclination from the information that you have been receiving from colleagues ...

The Chief Minister:

Yes, I just told you 3 times now that the professional advice received and the decision is taken to go down this road because it is going to be a more affordable and therefore deliverable solution.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

We could take that as to say more affordable means it is going to cost less or we could say that more affordable means it is going to cost more but because we are going to be spending that money over a longer period of time it is more affordable. Try and simplify the question: will the capital cost of the project be more or less than the single site solution at Overdale? If you do not know, it does not matter. I am just trying to get a feel.

The Chief Minister:

I gave you the example of the dual site 10 years ago because at the time the then Minister for Treasury and Resources identified that the envelope of spending that had been requested was too great, in their opinion. They set a spending envelope and asked people to go away and come back with their professional view of what was going to fit in the spending envelope that was set at that time. They came back with a dual-site option and so I think that experience ... plus that of the professional independent adviser who helped us to form this way forward through the 100-day plan has also come to the same conclusion. But, sorry, the chief executive I think wanted to add something.

Chief Executive Officer:

I just wanted to add we are at feasibility stage at this point in time and that feasibility stage is coming to a conclusion. We will be in a better position at that point in terms of ...

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

So when can we expect some actual estimate of capital cost?

Chief Executive Officer:

Well, I need to see what the ... before we can commit to that I think we need to see what the feasibility process produces. We have not yet seen that, but we know that that is imminent and it will be presented to the Council of Ministers and the steering group within a matter of weeks, I understand.

Deputy L.J. Farnham : Okay.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Can I ask, therefore, what is likely to be in the Government Plan when that is published? I am not asking for what numbers are going to be but what parts of the decision will be reflected in that Government Plan?

Chief Executive Officer:

Clearly, the next stages of the process in terms of working up the full business cases, et cetera, will be in the Government Plan.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Okay, thank you. A few more questions on the Government Plan, and this follows on from the Scrutiny review that we did on the previous one and the recommendations from then, most of which were accepted as they were put. What work has taken place to refine the Jersey performance framework indicators?

The Chief Minister:

We have certainly made some investment in statistics. Did somebody want to speak to that in particular if you wanted more detail? [Aside] Apologies, we do not have the chief statistician with us but we have committed to making further investment in statistics.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Okay. We may follow that up in writing then if that is more helpful. In the Government Plan and, I guess, the broader government programme as well, what further consideration is being given this time round on the issues of income inequality, the gender pay gap and the well-being indexes that we seek to follow?

The Chief Minister:

Well, our 3 areas of relentless focus are, of course, housing, cost of living, and recruitment and retention, which all play a part in the overall quality of life of Islanders. That is something that is at the heart of much of our decision-making. We have already shown through the mini-Budget our commitment to increasing tax allowances, to increasing the community cost bonus, and other benefits. We have also seen inflation-based increases in income support benefits, and so there is a continuing programme. We also, of course, raised the minimum wage considerably last year and have committed to increasing that towards the living wage as we move forward.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

So can we expect measures in the next Government Plan that follow on in that vein?

The Chief Minister:

We will be trying to do the very best that we can within the spending envelope that we have. Of course, that is an area of focus for us at the moment.

Assistant Chief Minister:

Sorry, just on the gender pay gap, we have certainly looked at sustainable funding for Statistics Jersey to provide additional reports and, in discussion with Deputy Andrews , the States Employment Board are looking to provide more reports on gender pay gaps.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec : Okay, thank you.

Chief Executive Officer:

That is absolutely part of the Government planning discussion that is going on at this point in time, including other issues around inclusion, agenda for schools and education going forward.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Very lastly on this, one issue that was raised at the last Government Plan was the publication of the plan itself and the annex, which did not happen at the same time last time. Do you think they will be published at the same time next time round?

The Chief Minister:

Best endeavours. It will certainly be our aspiration.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

It would be very helpful. The next round of questions are about government structure and governance, and some of this covers the role of the C.E.O. (chief executive officer) and how that may develop moving forward. We asked questions about this previously in correspondence and, as you wrote back to us, there was a mention of an advisory group that had been established to examine the role of the C.E.O. Could you tell us who is on that advisory group, how it has been convened thus far, and how that is going?

The Chief Minister:

I think we laid out the members of the advisory group in the letter that we sent to you. That advisory group has met only once or twice so far and I think at the time the focus has been slightly taken up with other matters in the intervening period. But we are now in a place where we have gone out to recruitment for the interim and set some very clear objectives for that person. Of course, they will help us to embed the changes that are agreed upon as we move forward.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

What changes are you looking at?

The Chief Minister:

Well, we have set out that we wish to simplify structures, meeting the suggestion that the chief executive identified in her resignation letter that the scope of the role needs to be looked at. We also feel that there needs to be an emphasis on performance. I am sure the Constable would be happy to talk to you about that.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Okay. I know Deputy Farnham wants to ask a question. Can he ask that and see if it follows into that?

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

It was just a question to the chief executive. Could you elaborate a little bit on what you meant when you said the role could be modified?

Chief Executive Officer:

I think what I meant by that were a number of things. I think that first of all obviously there had been an ongoing discussion through Scrutiny around the role of the Cabinet Office and the suggestion around a Cabinet Secretary, et cetera. Obviously, I have been brought in on a contract which my contract was that I both am the key adviser to the Council of Ministers and also the head of the public service. So it does give an opportunity to consider how that role could potentially be changed, if that is the right thing to do. I probably have my own personal views on that, which I am obviously sharing through the group as well. However, also it gives the opportunity to look at the role itself and the scope of the role in terms of the level and the layers of support that are provided to the role. Obviously, in my time I have had 12 direct reports, and in also providing that advisory role to the Council of Ministers, overseeing all of the governance in the organisation, overseeing all of the service delivery, overseeing the performance, overseeing the corporate services issues, I certainly think there needs to be a look at how those layers work effectively, how the systems work so that there is more support provided to the future C.E.O. so the job is more manageable.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

Did you ever find there was or have to wrestle with the conflict of being chief adviser to the Government and head of the public sector?

Chief Executive Officer: No.

Deputy L.J. Farnham : No. Okay, thank you.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

The advisory group that is meeting to discuss this, is it keeping records of minutes of meetings and are those able to be accessible at any point?

The Chief Minister:

It is a good question and I would have to check, forgive me.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec : Okay.

Chief People and Transformation Officer: We are keeping a record on the secretariat.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Okay, thank you. We may follow up on that then. In a further letter where we have been elaborating on this issue, you said that prior to the announcement of the resignation from the current C.E.O. there had not been plans to change the scope of the role. So was that the first moment where people were convened to discuss changing that or had there been any thoughts previously, whether formal or informal, about the future?

The Chief Minister:

Well, as you know, we have implemented the Cabinet Office and that brought with it some structural reorganisation.

Chief Executive Officer:

Including the appointment of 2 assistant chief executive officers, which was done on an informal basis, on the delegation basis, to begin with, but through the second phase of the Cabinet Office restructure then one of those appointments was made on a formal employment contract basis.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Was the decision to have assistant C.E.O.s made specifically because of and to complement the Cabinet structure office or was it something that was considered before the political decision to establish a Cabinet Office was made?

Chief Executive Officer:

I think, to be honest, it probably happened at around a similar time that those discussions were happening. I guess the idea of having assistant C.E.O.s really was to support my role and ensure that there was a broader, more distributive leadership approach to the organisation, which I think is the right way to go in the future.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

In what way was the scope of the role altered by having those assistant C.E.O.s?

Chief Executive Officer:

In terms of formal alteration in terms of the P.A.O. (principal accountable officer) role, that is not altered at all. In terms of being able to have better assurance around certain aspects of the business, with 2 very capable people that certainly gave me more assurance and made my job a little bit easier, if that makes sense. So, for example, Tom Walker obviously is now responsible for Modernisation and Digital as well as his S.P.P.P. (Strategic Policy, Planning and Performance) role, as well as People and Corporate Services. So it means that there is a layer there to help manage those parts of the organisation.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

You think that structure and the current role of the C.E.O. with that structure is a good, firm foundation?

Chief Executive Officer:

I think we need to look at that going forward. I think that the principle of having those layers is right, in my view. Whether or not how we have done it so far is absolutely perfect I think is why we are looking at this again and taking the opportunity to look at this again.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

Quick question for the Chief Minister or the Assistant Chief Minister: what is the political thinking on splitting the role right now?

[12:30]

The Chief Minister:

Well, it is something that we have an opportunity to think about and it is under discussion. Obviously, there are different views and that is part of our consideration.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

Yes. I guess we have a sort of an office that appears to be working well. What is the motivation for changing it? Is it because of the Cabinet Office ...

The Chief Minister:

Well, I think we just heard that there are issues with the way it works and the ability to deliver, but we also have a role that is defined in law, so ...

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

I was trying to get the political thinking on it, that was all.

The Chief Minister:

Yes, so we are considering whether or not we need to change, ask the Assembly to help us amend the current description, but that is not concluded because we are in a process of review and consideration and that is all we are doing.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

We have some questions about the recruitment for the interim position but before that, because it does follow on from what you have just said, I presume there would not be any time to make legislative changes in time for the interim person to take that role, but possibly when a permanent

office holder is appointed to that. So what kind of timetable do you see for that if you did decide to change the law to accommodate changes in the role? When do you think that might end up before the Assembly for approval?

The Chief Minister:

Well, prior to the permanent chief executive arriving, we have made it very clear ...

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

But presumably it would be prior to advertising for the final role, though, because they would want to know what job they were coming into, so it would be before ...

The Chief Minister:

Well, I am sure that ... goodness, I cannot remember your roles.

Chief Executive Officer:

Chief people and transformation officer.

The Chief Minister:

The chief people officer might be able to explain the length of time it takes to go out for a permanent recruitment, which is up to 12 months. Therefore, it is highly likely that that process would have to start before getting to the Assembly, but we already, of course, have the former P.P.C. (Privileges and Procedures Committee) subcommittee report about democratic accountability, which helps to form our view and offers some political input because it is a well-considered piece that had been consulted upon prior to its publication before the elections. Of course, you will be very familiar with it and you have already asked us questions about it.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Sure. I guess then if legislative changes are going to be made to impact on the structure of that role going forward, what risks have you considered in that process, bearing in mind when previous legislation has come on this role, P.1, that was a big debate when that happened in the Assembly and elements of it were controversial and it did not command unanimous support? What risks have you considered that changes that might be proposed this time could require significant scrutiny on them? They may be welcomed universally but they could also not be welcomed. How is that risk being calculated in terms of how you then start the journey towards permanent office holder?

The Chief Minister:

Well, of course, consideration is always given to the time that Scrutiny would require, and rightly so, for any major legislative change like that.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

In terms of the recruitment for the interim position, the campaign for that has been announced in the last few days. How has that campaign been put together?

The Chief Minister:

Well, we have the chief people officer.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec : Remember to introduce yourself.

Chief People and Transformation Officer:

Mark Grimley, chief people and transformation officer. The process is driven in legislation and it is the States Employment Board who determine the process. At the last appointment, the C. and A.G. made a number of recommendations and we have assured ourselves that those recommendations are being followed. One of those areas may well be a transition between P.A.O.s and that is being considered at the moment. In terms of putting the campaign together, there is a very clear steer from the States Employment Board that the role previously described had a bias towards local authorities in the U.K. and they wanted to direct more opportunity for those with organisational leadership and good governance experience, and would like to test the market particularly within Jersey. So what we have done is, unusually, appointed 2 agencies to support the search; one dedicated for the search on-Island with good connections and one in the U.K. We have been very clear that all candidates are welcome who are suitably qualified. The role is a leadership role and that is how the campaign has been put together.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Are you able to say who those are, those ...?

Chief People and Transformation Officer:

Yes, Thomas & Dessain, who are on-Island, and Gatenby Sanderson, who are London based.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Are you able to say how much their services are costing?

Chief People and Transformation Officer:

We will do at the end of that. It is always a question that comes up so we are prepared for it.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

In terms of the timeline, it is quite tight at this point. How has that been included in this campaign? This will be a question for the Chief Minister, but how confident are you that you can get a good, well-qualified post-holder in time to take over at the right moment?

The Chief Minister:

I think I have already indicated in the Assembly that there is already some level of interest from people in the local community, which is really pleasing to see and very encouraging. Although the timeline has already slipped, of course, we feel comfortable with the timeframe going forward and achieving the set date for interviews and a decision.

Chief People and Transformation Officer:

If I may, Chair, an interim appointment is very different to a permanent appointment. People know that they are in the post for a short period of time. They are not necessarily taking decisions about family moves or commitments or job changes and very often in an interim market people are available straight away. So it is a very different campaign to a permanent campaign. A permanent campaign will be a lot more intensive. It will be longer in terms of the search and the application window and I suspect many more candidates will want several conversations before throwing their hat in the ring.

Assistant Chief Minister:

I think it is also fair to say that all of the companies that showed an interest in doing the work on our behalf committed to meeting the timelines that we put in place.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Okay. There has been a mention in a previous letter to us about a statement of works for the interim post-holder. Unless we have accidentally missed it, I am not aware of having seen that. Is that something that we are able to see?

Chief People and Transformation Officer:

Yes, that is within the pack. So if you go to gov.je, C.E.O., it is there.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Excellent, thank you. You had mentioned about people showing interest in the role already. Are those people, therefore, being encouraged to apply now that that is open?

The Chief Minister:

I have already heard that there is activity from the partners who are reaching out to people in the community locally and further afield to assist us in the search and make sure that we are going to have the best possible field of candidates.

Chief People and Transformation Officer:

Chair, just at this point, while people were speculatively expressing interest, now that we are in the formal process it is being handled equally by the agencies, through them, so it is not being done informally within Government. We have 2 members of the Jersey Appointments Commission and an independent chair overseeing the process and we have to meet the guidelines of the Jersey Appointments Commission for a fair appointment.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Thank you. On our question plan we are going to skip to 25 now, which is for Deputy Andrews to lead on. This is about the States Employment Board and culture and behaviour.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

When I looked at the Democratic Accountability and Governance Subcommittee report, there were some former States Members and also incumbent Members of the Assembly who considered the role of the States Employment Board to be one which was still unclear in relation to making sure that workplace behaviours and culture, for instance, and organisational issues were something that the States Employment Board had proper and efficient oversight of. So how are those key concerns going to be addressed?

Assistant Chief Minister:

We, at our monthly meetings, look at a whole range of things. We endorsed the values of the organisation and, in fact, the States Employment Board had a workshop themselves on the values and we are looking to roll that out among other States Members, invite them, as well as reinforcing that with senior leaders within the organisation. A big thing that we are looking at is around objectives, around training, around secondment. So you mentioned earlier about the ability for us to attract people or have fewer people. We have some incredibly talented people, some incredibly hardworking people, and we just have to be a little bit smarter in how we use those people and try to refine processes. There has been some good progress made in terms of the amount of staff who have objectives agreed with their managers, but we are a long way from being a mature organisation in that area. So we have a lot of focus on that and both myself and Suzanne have addressed the executive leadership team on that matter. We get reports on that every month. We get reports on performance management every month, and again for a mature organisation we have very few people currently who we are helping with their performance. When we look at the amount of people off with stress, for example, that would suggest to me that some people are struggling and we need

to identify them and help them. There is a lot of focus on that area. We have bolstered Mark's team. The People Hub now comes under People and Corporate Services rather than Customer and Local Services so that H.R. (human resources) is in one. So we are doing lots of things there to try and refine things.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

In terms of, say, looking to try and implement a renewed and better culture, how do you go about that when you have an organisation of 9,000 people and also you have the numerous departments as well?

Assistant Chief Minister:

Well, I think any organisation, regardless of the size, you will see pockets of excellence and pockets where you have to do work. We have invited HR Lounge back in. We are due to do the Be Heard survey again this year and we are looking to do that and publish the results fairly quickly. Then in my experience we should be saying: "You said; we have done", so involving staff. I think we have told you before about our work with the representative bodies. We continue to meet representative bodies on a quarterly basis to try and enhance partnership working, which hopefully will help us make some of these changes.

Chief People and Transformation Officer:

The S.E.B. (States Employment Board) have also completed their work on the codes of practice, and that was quite a significant change. So falling from the strategy you now have the codes of practice and from them for the policies. It is a really important piece of work. It is slightly nerdy H.R. work in some respects, but what it does is set the tone from the S.E.B. about their expectations. So for the first time the S.E.B. have done a code of practice on employee rights, and that is really important because it is saying to line managers what is important to the S.E.B. about how we treat our employees. Then from that we have the management development programme. So there is a framework in place and that is still developing and that is still growing. It is about 18 months in but you can start to see that a structure is coming into place. The other thing that we have are people and culture plans in each of the departments and that is because the departments are very, very different in nature. Health care is very different to social care, is very different to education. We are working with departments to make sure that whatever we do around culture and training is more relevant to them as opposed to a big corporate programme.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

Thank you very much for providing some clarity. Are there any questions so far?

I was going to ask if the code of practice deals with complaints.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

We are going to come on to that.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

Yes. Also I guess in terms of you may have a framework, for instance, that you would like to have in place, but I know there have been a couple of reports that have highlighted there being a resistance to cultural change. So in terms of there may be, say, for instance, some individuals who are currently within the organisation and perhaps they might be resistant to change and are prohibiting the public sector from improving, do you think that will be something that the executive leadership team will seek to address?

Assistant Chief Minister:

Well, I think one of the focuses is around performance and we will find from the Be Heard survey whether things have improved or, if they have not improved, that will give us an opportunity to identify best practice. It will also identify areas where we have more work to do. I think also the objective setting of staff. We can see where teams have embraced that and we can see where teams are not so far advanced. So that allows the team within People and Corporate Services to lend further support where it is required.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

Of course, I initially touched on States Employment Board in terms of there being States Members in the report that I mentioned who had concerns about there not being a clear directive. So in terms of the States Employment Board's role in the recruitment of a new chief executive, what are the responsibilities and what authority do the States Employment Board have within that remit?

Assistant Chief Minister:

So we have set the policy and then the Jersey Appointments Commission will oversee how that recruitment takes place.

[12:45]

So the panel, as was mentioned earlier, has been established with an independent chair. So we set the policy and then the team will do the implementation.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

Of course, as well, I know some members have obviously had some previous experience with the previous report, so how important is it that we see those recommendations be  pursued and implemented for the benefit of the organisation?

Assistant Chief Minister:

Well, I think it is really important that we learn. I think the Chief Minister mentioned earlier about C. and A.G. reports. There is some good learning from that and we have to continue to learn. We want to be a learning organisation. We want to be an employer of choice. So if we do not learn, then we are not going to be that. So we have to continually evolve. As I said earlier, we have some great people, we have some great departments, and we have to build upon that.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

Yes. Also, there is just one question I have for the Chief Minister, obviously who is the chair of the States Employment Board. What consideration for the findings and recommendations from the people and culture review are now being taken forward that were previously rejected by the previous Government and the previous States Employment Board?

The Chief Minister:

I think that is something that we perhaps need to remind ourselves of and reflect upon.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

Okay. So could we maybe have some further correspondence with the panel just to provide some clarity in that area?

Assistant Chief Minister: Sure.

Deputy M.B. Andrews : Thank you very much.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Okay, and again we might follow up on that. So the next questions follow on from this context of the discussion about culture and behaviour. We think it is important to ask these questions but we are deliberately framing them as being about issues and not about any ongoing cases or anything like that. That is deliberately how we are phrasing these questions. Could I ask you: what is the procedure for complaints to be made when they are made by civil servants about Ministers and how are civil servants made aware of those processes to follow?

The Chief Minister: Would Mark like to ...?

Chief People and Transformation Officer:

Yes, sure. There are 3 main policies and procedures where employees may raise complaints or concerns. We have the whistleblowing, which has been recently updated. We have the dignity at work, which has replaced bullying and harassment, and we have the grievance policy and procedure. Each of those are designed to make sure that they are addressed at the appropriate level. So, for example, an employee should raise any issues with their line manager at the earliest opportunity. If it concerns their line manager, then clearly up the chain. When it comes to States Members, not just Ministers but States Members, what we will do is we will talk to the individual about what resolution they are looking for and every single one of those 3 policies talks about resolution. It says the first stage is informal resolution. Very often when you get into formal stages that is where relationships are more difficult to repair. If necessary, I will be notified of a concern or the chief executive will be notified of a concern. We will establish the facts and then we will determine which action to take, whether it is appropriate to take it forward to the Chief Minister, who is responsible for Ministers. There is no power at the moment for us to refer an individual matter to the Commissioner for Standards - the individual must do that - and we cannot address any anonymous complaints to the commissioner because their code says that they will not address those.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Indeed. Are Ministers informed if complaints are raised about them?

Chief People and Transformation Officer:

Not necessarily, if it is in the informal stage. The first thing we want to do is how we support the employee. Then we will have conversations about how best ... so, for example, if there is one situation where a meeting has not gone well, what we will do is we will work with the Minister and others in the room to say: "How did that go? What happened there? Could we do it differently?" So those informal conversations, those coaching conversations, are really important because very often, particularly if things were in the heat of the moment or people do not see that, then it is good to take a step back and reflect on that. Only where we have really serious concerns would we go to a formal process.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

At what point would a Minister be informed?

Chief People and Transformation Officer:

It would normally be a discussion with the chief executive and the Chief Minister at one point.

Chief Executive Officer:

I think it would depend on the particular case as well and what the issues are.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

This is for the Chief Minister then. Are you of the view that that process is adequate?

The Chief Minister:

Nobody has suggested that it is not.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Okay. So you are, therefore, not seeking any changes to that?

The Chief Minister:

Well, I think that all States Members are bound by the Nolan principles and there is a code of conduct for Ministers, which is well-known to Ministers. One of the first things that we did was to consider that code of conduct and whether any changes and amendments needed to be made. We did that and published them.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Indeed, and Members, obviously it is their responsibility to make sure they are abiding by those codes of conduct, but Members may legitimately or otherwise want to know if there are concerns being made about them informally so that they can personally reflect on that and decide whether they need to change their behaviour as a result of that. So at what point in that process would you want Ministers to be made aware if those kinds of concerns are being raised about them?

The Chief Minister:

Well, I think you have heard from the professional person in the room who has much greater knowledge than I do in this area. I am very prepared to take their advice.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec : Okay.

Chief People and Transformation Officer:

Chair, if I could add to that, because you are talking about States Members. If there is an issue at that point, then you are in a position of repair. What would be better is that the programme that is there to support States Members and Ministers looks at how they understand themselves, how they work in different situations. Particularly new Members may think that they have certain locus of control and then they find it is slightly different and people find their feet. It would be really helpful to make sure that Members are supported in understanding themselves first and how they can interact and give that facilitation rather than wait for a problem to arise.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec : Indeed.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

I was just going to ask for clarification of something Mark said earlier in response to whether Ministers are informed of complaints. You said not if they are informal. So if a member of staff wrote a complaint and stated: "I want to make a formal complaint" is that not then considered ... I mean what is the difference between informal and formal?

Chief People and Transformation Officer:

So where it is formal, it is where an investigation is required. So the informal stage, which is the first part of each of those 3 policies internally, while we do not have a protocol between employees and Members as such because that automatically assumes it goes to the Commissioner for Standards, very often we will take that, work with the employee and say: "Okay, how can we support you?" The employee has an opportunity to say: "No, I would like to take this formal" and then we would work out how we would do that. So, for example, in the whistleblowing policy, there are 3 named people who are responsible for addressing whistleblowing concerns and they have to commission an investigator. If that is the case, they would commission the Commissioner for Standards.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

No, that is fine, I just wanted to make sure. So it is when it becomes formal that the States Member or Minister would be informed?

Chief People and Transformation Officer: Yes.

Deputy L.J. Farnham : Okay, thank you.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

In communication that we have had between you and the panel you have made reference to workshops to explore how Ministers can apply the values and behaviours of the organisation. It has been agreed by the S.E.B. and the Council of Ministers that senior leaders take part in these workshops. Can you give us an update on where you are with that?

The Chief Minister:

Well, I think as I have already said, the States Employment Board would have had the benefit of one of those values workshops and we have requested that the Council of Ministers also participates and that it is rolled out wider around the organisation. That is work in progress.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Who delivers those workshops?

The Chief Minister:

The chief people officer, I believe, is involved with some members of his team.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

So that is done in-house?

The Chief Minister: Yes.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec : What do they entail?

Chief People and Transformation Officer:

So with the values workshop we look at the behaviours, what that looks like, how people will treat each other. We run some scenarios. In a more in-depth scenario we have taken some live cases and asked people to observe them and comment on them. For slightly shorter sessions - and particularly Council of Ministers will need a shorter session because of the pressure of the Government Plan coming through - we will look at the behaviours. We will talk them through. We will ask them to reflect on situations that they have seen or they have experienced and also we ask them to think about how they want to be known portraying those values. The second session we do is to look at culture and what is culture. It is about the system of culture, because most people talk about culture and it is a nebulous thing, but there is a framework that we use around the different elements of culture. That is the second session that the S.E.B. are due to go through.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

As a result of the first session that S.E.B. have taken part in, has anything in particular been identified as a result of that that will be followed up and that will feature in your thinking about how that is rolled out more widely?

Chief People and Transformation Officer:

I think the Chief Minister and the Assistant Chief Minister were in the workshops and they very much reflected about how the meeting is conducted. The States Employment Board are very senior States Members and that environment for people to come in and feel welcome and feel able to speak candidly, feel that they are being listened to, they reflected on how they could do that and make sure that that happens. We talked about whether or not they have a code between themselves about how they challenge each other and how they run the meeting more effectively. They are all areas that committees and boards go through and it is standard board practice to have a look at this when a board has significant change.

Assistant Chief Minister:

We would also, sorry, after 12 months expect to do a board review of our performance so that will be coming up shortly.

Chief Executive Officer:

I think we got a lot of help from the independent adviser on S.E.B. as well around these workshops and any issues that arose from any Members.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Sorry, can I just be reminded of who the independent adviser for S.E.B. is at the moment?

Chief Executive Officer: Bev Shears.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec : Thank you.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

Just quickly, so currently if an officer or a public sector worker wants to make a complaint about a States Member they have to take it to the commissioner themselves. Do you think that is an appropriate route, given it is a pretty daunting task, is it not? I could understand why no employee would like to do that. Is that not something the employer could do on their behalf perhaps?

Chief People and Transformation Officer:

There is no protocol to do that at the moment. I do not see that there is a barrier to doing that. When someone complains on someone else's behalf you become the intermediary. I think we just need to think through it. It does not tend to happen but I think because it is such a rare occurrence that I think we need to ...

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

I think it is a rare occurrence because it is quite a daunting prospect. Perhaps that is something that could be ... I am not saying it is the right thing to do but perhaps something that could ...

Chief Executive Officer: I think it is something ...

Assistant Chief Minister:

It is certainly something that we could reflect upon and talk to the commissioner about.

Chief Executive Officer: Yes.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Indeed. Is there anything in the employment arrangements of civil servants that offers them a degree of protection that if they felt on a point of principle that they had to go to the Commissioner for Standards, not just for their own case but they might consider it in the wider public interest as well, to know that they will not suffer in their employment as a result of that?

Chief People and Transformation Officer:

Absolutely. The codes of practice and the whistleblowing policy are very clear about people's rights, their protection. People are entitled to raise legitimate complaints and those are written down and they are signed off by the S.E.B.

Chief Executive Officer:

I think in terms of looking at this and any support to members of staff in terms of making a complaint that could be considered.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Okay. There are a couple of questions just to round off on all of this because we are almost out of time. Do either of you have anything to add to that?

No, thanks.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Okay. The issue of trust in politics is a perennial problem in Jersey and that can often not be helped by political discourse when that happens. There are tense moments in every political term, including so far in this term. What are you doing as Chief Minister to try to help overcome this and demonstrate a kind of leadership that the public can start developing trust in and feeling like Government is working for them?

The Chief Minister:

Well, I think we said at the very beginning that we wanted to restore trust and confidence in Government and we certainly aim to do that. I believe that through our own behaviours and values that we have demonstrated that. We have put our hands up when we have got things wrong and we always do our best to engage and communicate clearly and regularly. I think if we reflect back on the terrible tragedies of December the public reaction was really positive in terms of the level of communication and the consideration that was given to the public at that difficult time and as we have moved forward as well. I think in the previous discussion you mentioned legitimacy of complaints and that is also an important factor to consider because sometimes ... and I know the Commissioner for Standards herself in her great level of experience in that role in other places has a  great  professional level  of  experience  and  is  able  to  determine  when  perhaps  sometimes complaints are vexatious or politically motivated because that can be a factor.

[13:00]

That is also a factor that deters members of the public from standing for public office sometimes. I think people who dabble in vexatious complaint or political interference should also take that thought very seriously because they also do a great deal of damage to the political process in doing so. That being said, I think that we are in a good place in terms of restoring confidence. I think there is an awful long way to go. But one of the things that the public talked about widely during the election process  was  the  importance  of  accountability, and  accountability  is something  that  we  as  a Government are very much focused on as well. That is why we have demonstrated and identified and talked today about plans and measures and output and outcomes, and we will continue to do that because we consider that it is important to continue to engage with the public. It is important to demonstrate to them that we understand their concerns and aspirations for the Island and that we deliver on them. That is what we are here to do. We are here because we are motivated by doing the right thing for the public and we feel that we have their mandate in terms of the choices that they made at the ballot box and the values that they felt that candidates demonstrated and the political judgment that those candidates demonstrated. So it is our job now to be the public in the room. We feel privileged to have that role and we do not take it lightly in any way. We will do our very best every single day to reflect the hopes and aspirations for the Island and its future.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

What benchmarks have you set to try to measure whether you are successful in helping to restore trust in politics?

The Chief Minister:

Well, I guess that will be seen at the ballot box. It would be really nice to see a greater level of voter turnout, but also as we continue to engage with the public and see greater levels of engagement ... I referred earlier to the simple question of the extension to Coronation Park and the level of engagement that there was on that question. I think as we demonstrate that (a) somebody listens and (b) that they deliver on what they have learned from that listening process, then it is through doing that time and time again that trust can be restored.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Okay. Thank you very much. A couple of minutes over but I am sure that is okay. Thank you very much. Thank you to the officers who have supported you and helped answer further questions as well. Thank you to our officers for their support and for anyone who may be watching online and media as well. So, thank you all very much. Have a good weekend and I bring this hearing to a close.

[13:02]