Transcript - Quarterly Hearing with the Minister for Children and Families- 19 June 2024

Children, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny

Panel

Quarterly Public Hearing

Witness: The Minister for Children and Families

Wednesday, 19th June 2024

Panel:

Deputy C.D . Curtis of St. Helier Central (Chair) Connétable M. Labey of Grouville (Vice-Chair) Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée of St. Helier South

Witnesses:

Connétable R.P. Vibert of St. Peter , The Minister for Children and Families

Deputy M.R. Ferey of St. Saviour , Assistant Minister for Children and Families

Mr. R. Sainsbury, Chief Officer, Children, Young People, Education and Skills Department

Ms. D. Marriott, Director, Children's Services

Mr. D. Bowring, Associate Director, Mental Health and Well-being

Mr. A. Heaven, Assistant Director of Children's Policy, Children, Young People, Education and Skills

[09:01]

Deputy C.D . Curtis of St. Helier Central (Chair):

Welcome to the Children, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel. Today is 19th June. I would like to draw everyone's attention to the following. This hearing will be filmed and streamed live. Recording and transcript will be published afterwards on the States Assembly website. All electronic devices, including mobile phones, should be switched to silent. We will start now with introductions. I am Deputy Catherine Curtis , the Chair of the panel.

Connétable M. Labey of Grouville (Vice-Chair):

My name is Mark Labey , the Connétable of Grouville , Vice-Chair of the panel.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

My name is Deputy Porée and I am a panel member.

The Minister for Children and Families:

Connétable Richard Vibert , Minister for Children and Families.

Assistant Minister for Children and Families:

Deputy Malcolm Ferey , Assistant Minister for Children and Families.

Chief Officer, Children, Young People, Education and Skills Department:

Rob Sainsbury, Chief Officer, Department of Children, Young People, Education and Skills.

Director, Children's Services:

Donna Marriott, Director of Children's Services.

Associate Director, Mental Health and Well-being:

Darren Bowring, Associate Director of Children's Mental Health and Well-being.

Assistant Director of Children's Policy:

Andrew Heaven, Assistant Director of Children's Policy, Education and Skills.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay. Thank you, everyone. We have 2 hours for this hearing and we start with the Connétable .

The Connétable of Grouville :

Good morning, everyone. The principal for us, with the first batch of questions, is about the Children and Civil Status (Amendments) (Jersey) Law and its progress through the drafting process. Our first question is what work has been done in the last 2 to 3 months to progress the consequential amendments to this law?

The Minister for Children and Families:

Okay. I will start with that and then I will ask Andrew to provide some further detail. The Children and Civil Status (Amendments) (Jersey) Law was approved by the Assembly in March 2024. The law makes sweeping changes to the area of children's law in Jersey in respect of same sex parental rights and responsibilities. Law drafting instruction for the consequential amendment regulations were issued to the Legislative Drafting Office in May. An additional search of the statute book has

identified further consequential amendments which will be included in the forthcoming regulations. The legislative drafter had begun work on the amendments that relate to legitimacy and adoption orders, while the consequential amendment search is completed. Further law drafting instructions have been produced by the Judicial Greffe to provide new rules of court for parental orders. Lodging of the consequential amendment regulations is still on course for Q4 2024. Now, I think there is some confusion here because I have seen reference to the fact that all consequential amendments would have been made by the end of 2024. That is not what drafting the amendment regulation does. That lists the laws that require amendment. It will take a number of years. So far in excess of 30 laws have been found that will require amendment, some of which we have started on, but that is a massive exercise for the law drafting department. I will ask Andrew to follow on.

Assistant Director of Children's Policy:

Just to underline what the Minister said. There are 3 elements that need to run their course to allow the Minister to enact and those are in flight, as the Minister has said. We have got the amendments to the Children and Civil Status (Amendments) (Jersey) Law that were approved by the Assembly and those amendments are with the Privy Council at the moment and we hope that they will receive Royal Assent in July and August. There is currently a pause given the general election in the U.K. (United Kingdom). Then we have got the regulations for the consequential amendments progressing and then finally we have got the Rules of Court, which is being progressed by the Judicial Greffier and the drafting instructions are already with, so progress is underway and those 3 elements, when they come together, will enable the Minister to enact the law. Just for completeness I am mindful that the panel did a review of the amendments to the Children and Civil Status (Amendments) (Jersey) Law and just to say that in response to the concerns around legitimacy that work is as the Minister said underway, so it is all systems go.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Andrew, I am a little concerned. Your light is not on your microphone. Josie, are we okay?

Female Speaker:

If you can turn it on just by pressing the button.

Assistant Director of Children's Policy: I just did. Sorry.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Thank you, Andrew. Yes. Our concern primarily as a committee, as a panel, is clearly the 33 that we have listed currently, 33 consequential amendments. Minister, are you saying that there are more than that?

The Minister for Children and Families:

There could well be. I think more have been uncovered. When you look at the range of laws, laws that you would not even think would be affected by this, for instance the Aircraft Registration (Jersey) Law, the gambling control legislation.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

But this is probably about definition of terms.

Assistant Director of Children's Policy:

Yes,  so what you have  done in terms of the  amendments to the  Children and Civil Status (Amendments) (Jersey) Law has brought in an extended definition, for example around parents. If you think about how many times on the statute book parents or the definition of parents is used in a multiplicity of circumstances you get a feel for the scale of amendments that are required. I can take an action back to the officer in terms of clarification of timelines and come back.

The Connétable of Grouville :

That was the thrust of my next question. We have no doubt at all, having visited this legislation, that it is extremely complex and that is underestimating it. Our next question would have been do you feel because of these consequential amendments that we will be able to complete this in Q4? Is that realistic, Minister?

The Minister for Children and Families:

The amendments to the individual laws would not be realistic and never has been. The law drafting department have always said that it would take a number of years to do this. In the amendments regulation to have listed all of them by Q4, I think they can do that. I mean, something might crop up, some obscure law, but they are very thorough in what they are doing. As I say even the Financial Services (Jersey) Law is impacted and you might not have ever considered that some of these laws are impacted yet there is a paragraph there somewhere. I think Q4 is reasonable to have that bit of legislation listing them in place.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Thank you, Minister. It was stated that the Government will keep horizon scanning global developments in relation to areas of policy and legislative developments related to surrogacy. Can you describe how Government are doing this?

The Minister for Children and Families:

I might ask Andrew. I thought we had the surrogacy issue covered.

Assistant Director of Children's Policy:

I can go away and come back to the panel and provide a written answer to that, because I do not have that in my notes.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Our principal concerns were obviously same sex male couples that have considerable I have friends of ours who have been through this process and it is not in any way simple. It would just be nice if the panel could have an update and be kept informed about that.

Assistant Director of Children's Policy: Of course. I can do that.

The Connétable of Grouville :

The other concern that the panel has is relating to Jersey's legitimacy law. You have already mentioned it, Minister, as one of the consequential amendments. Before the Children and Civil Status (Jersey) (Amendment) Law comes into force can you inform the panel how this is progressing, the legitimacy?

The Minister for Children and Families: I think Andrew has covered that already.

Assistant Director of Children's Policy:

Yes. the legislative drafters have begun the work on the amendments that relate to legitimacy. The instructions have gone and the law drafting is now in train.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Thank you very much. That is an update we will be glad to see because clearly that legitimacy, that whole terminology, legitimacy, is dated and needs to be removed.

The Minister for Children and Families:

It really does not have any effect now. Yes, it needs to be removed.

The Connétable of Grouville :

The next questions, Minister, are about the children's homes and in particular the therapeutic offer that was planned at one point. At our last quarterly hearing we learned that the previously planned therapeutic children's home would not be progressed. Please could you provide some further details, and the questions after this will be related to it, about the package that you are intending to introduce? Can you clarify, for example, what the care for the children who would have gone into that home will look like instead?

The Minister for Children and Families:

Thank you very much. Obviously it is still somewhat early days on developing the therapeutic offer but I will ask Donna to provide some more information in a minute. At this point what I should confirm is that this is a therapeutic offer for children in our care so that is 60 children on the Island. It is not a therapeutic model for all children on the Island and at this rate we have agreed and implemented a therapeutic framework that is suitable, well, we have to agree and implement a therapeutic framework that is suitable for use for these young people and children. This ensures that all staff working in residential across social care and foster care, so it will include foster care as well, are trained in the same theory, language, and process. I will ask Donna to add some more details to that.

Director, Children's Services:

We have got some work running along with C.A.M.H.S. (Children and Adolescent Mental Health Service) to try to look at what that model will be. What we are going to do is run that across the whole of that residential estate and our fostering estate so that we can upskill carers to be able to manage those sorts of more difficult situations, but also to work through some of the techniques that they use in C.A.M.H.S. about things such as positive behaviour support so that we can try to de- escalate situations when they are becoming more challenging. We are just about to run a pilot of it in the coming weeks to see how the staff get on with that wrapped around a particular child and then if that is successful we will go away and we will look at how we start to train across the whole of the residential estate in that model of practice. We have also been working with Darren's team as well to look at creating extra therapeutic capacity around those residential workers so they get more support in how to manage those more challenging situations and how to work more therapeutically with children as well, so we have put some extra resource in there to do that in the future as well.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Thank you very much. Our next question is

The Minister for Children and Families: I was going to ask if Darren had anything.

Associate Director, Mental Health and Well-being:

As part of the C.A.M.H.S. redesign we do have posts for C.A.M.H.S. looked after children and we recognise historically that those children have not been prioritised by the service but almost certainly are now and we have dedicated C.A.M.H.S. support. That inputs into our fostering and adoption service. We have a dedicated psychologist in that team and we have got some additional posts that we are currently recruiting to which will add to that offer and will join alongside social care to provide therapeutic input across the residential service.

The Connétable of Grouville : Right across the estate?

Associate Director, Mental Health and Well-being: Yes.

The Connétable of Grouville :

That is good news. Minister, can you advise the panel if the current demand figures for this service had influenced the decision not to proceed with a therapeutic home? When we saw the designs for the home we saw there was a relatively small number of cases that could be housed there. Is that what had influenced your opinion?

The Minister for Children and Families:

I suppose that was a possibly small factor but the real decision was what were we going to offer there and the problem was that the therapy to be offered there had not been defined and you could have certainly had 3 children with totally different needs and not necessarily have employed the correct experts.

[09:15]

I think that certainly Darren would recognise that that is not a model that is going to work. I think that what we have done is the right decision, that there will be an offer across the whole estate and so I think the fact that you could only have 3 children in the home and we were only going to offer therapy to those children was not the right model. I think many of the children need some form of therapy and without that their situation can deteriorate quite rapidly sometimes. Those were really the primary decisions. Am I right that one of the reports also backed us up, one of the reports we had, that the therapeutic home was not the was it the Jersey Care Commission one?

Chief Officer, Children, Young People, Education and Skills Department:

It was the suitability of the property as well, which was an issue, but in essence both the Care Commission and the Office of the Children's Commissioner has been pushing that the department considers the offer across the whole of the estate, as the Minister states. As part of this efficiency work and making sure that we have got the right capacity futureproofed we are looking at all physical location options and what that might be but the home that was previously identified would not have met that requirement.

The Connétable of Grouville :

No. I mean, my principal worry about that home was that if one of the children was particularly severe at one point or at many points, the isolation issue, that that would have to be isolated. It was a very open plan property and that would not have been ideal so was the decision influenced by that specific property or were there other properties that could have been used or an alternative proposed?

The Minister for Children and Families:

I do not think it was that specific property. I am very pleased that the officers looking at it despite the push to do this therapeutic home, their mind continued to be open to the alternatives and they continued looking at those alternatives while that home was surveyed and its suitability in general checked. I am very pleased that they did not look at this as one solution; they kept looking at the alternatives so, no, that particular home was not the reason that that building was not suitable, was not the reason for the change. The change was that everything that we were being told was saying that this was not the correct route.

The Connétable of Grouville :

My next question was if there was any other research that had contributed.

The Minister for Children and Families:

There was an awful lot. I am very pleased that that was done.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Thank you very much. In the States Assembly on 30th April 2024 you spoke about a transformation programme that was scoping a therapeutic offer to all children in the care of the Minister. Can you provide more details about that programme?

The Minister for Children and Families: Right. I do not know. Donna?

Director, Children's Services:

That is what we have just been talking about, that therapeutic model.

The Minister for Children and Families: Yes. That is what we are doing.

The Connétable of Grouville :

That is the thrust of the programme?

The Minister for Children and Families: That is the thrust of this, yes.

Director, Children's Services:

And the review of the residential estate. I think trying to understand to get that right, that offer in those homes, trying to make sure they

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Can you give us any information about the training plans? Is there anything organised already?

Director, Children's Services:

Not until we have definitely agreed the final model. The pilot will run in the coming weeks and if the pilot runs and is successful then we will go out and procure that training and have that in place. From September is the thinking that they would start rolling that out across the estate.

The Connétable of Grouville :

We understand that the new plan involves funding for a service led by C.A.M.H.S. Please can you advise how the multidisciplinary team will operate and what specific roles they will play in supporting children and young people at the edge of care?

The Minister for Children and Families: Darren, is that you or Donna?

Associate Director, Mental Health and Well-being:

I think it is both. What we are looking for is an integrated team where we co-locate a number of C.A.M.H.S. clinicians and professionals alongside our social care colleagues who work across fostering and adoption and residential services so we are integrated. From the C.A.M.H.S. point of view that will be psychologists that we have got in post already, we will have funding for an additional psychologist within that team and then the consideration is whether we go for a family systemic therapist-type model or a positive behaviour support practitioner, given some of the behavioural implications of some of the experiences our young people have received. Those practitioners will sit alongside our social care colleagues that are responsible within that system so we will have a much closer working relationship and integrated team and hopefully a more robust approach to that group of children.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Thank you very much. Minister, in your opinion, how does the proposed multidisciplinary therapeutic team and the repurposing of funds represent the best offer for vulnerable children compared to the initial therapeutic home concept?

The Minister for Children and Families:

I think we have covered that to some extent because the therapeutic home was going to give rise to quite a limited offer. It would be limited to those children within that home, whereas this is much broader and it includes both the C.A.M.H.S. staff, Children's Services staff with whom the children are already familiar. I think that is a great advantage, that they are not going to be faced by an entirely new team. They will already know some of the people involved.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Yes, and familiarity is very important.

The Minister for Children and Families:

I think that is very important. I think that it is a much better scheme. It uses our resources in a more positive way and reaches a wider number of children. I think that is the important thing. This will even be available to foster children, which broadens the scope as well. I think this offers a lot better value than the home would have done.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Thank you, Minister. Looking forward, what do you believe to be the key milestones and the next steps in implementing this new therapeutic offer?

The Minister for Children and Families:

The next step is the pilot scheme and then if that is successful we will commence training September October time and from that, together with the team in C.A.M.H.S., I would think by the end of this year we will have an effective team in place of both C.A.M.H.S. and our own Children's Services staff.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

When you mentioned about the review of the residential estate as well and what is needed is there going to be a place in Jersey for a child who maybe cannot live with other children at the time, so like a flat with supervision or something like that, for an older child, like there has been in the past?

The Minister for Children and Families:

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

So that is a place that could be used for someone in that situation. Okay, thanks.

The Connétable of Grouville :

The therapeutic children's home had been allocated £750,000 of funding in a previous Government Plan for 2024 under the group head of expenditure for upgrades to the C.Y.P.E.S. (Children, Young People, Education and Skills) estate. Can you clarify exactly what that funding will be used for now?

Chief Officer, Children, Young People, Education and Skills Department:  

I can answer that. That head of expenditure is for general upgrades, so it will be used for different estate needs. We will always have ongoing need. We have got some at Field View at the moment, we have got Khartoum Villas that we are looking at and we have got quite a large estate portfolio so that will be allocated according to the more immediate need that we have going forward.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Is there any specific process for the changing or repurposing of that approved funding?

Chief Officer, Children, Young People, Education and Skills Department:

The process that we have is based on needs priority, so where we have emerging requirements that are usually captured within expectations from our regulatory compliance needs that is where we will need to use that funding and that head of expenditure. That is based on prioritisation. We will look at our greatest risk and that can cover a wide-ranging estate. We continue to have to invest into Greenfields as well, upgrades to C.C.T.V. (closed circuit television) so where you have an identified need and certainly when it is picked up by the regulators, we need to use that funding to address that and we have flexibility with that head of expenditure.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

You will also need more funding for this new therapeutic multidisciplinary team, for the extra staff.

The Connétable of Grouville : And the training as well.

Chief Officer, Children, Young People, Education and Skills Department:

We will. So as part of the care reform funding that we have already received we would look to purpose that funding towards revenue cost for staffing and then in terms of the estate need that will be built into a capital requirement that we would obviously need to put forward to Treasury if that

changes. It is based on a similar context to health, where health has an immediate building facility problem that needs to be addressed, for regulatory purposes it has to be addressed, so we are in a very similar position in this space.

The Connétable of Grouville :

The thrust of the next question is about a recent report. The panel is aware of a recent inspection report published on 23rd May by the Jersey Care Commission in respect of a C.Y.P.E.S.-run children's home where there were 12 areas for improvement identified and the report stated that the regulation officers were not assured that the care receivers and care staff were adequately safeguarded and supported by this service. Can you explain what actions have been taken by C.Y.P.E.S. since it received that report to improve the safeguarding for care receivers and care staff?

The Minister for Children and Families:

I can. In particular with regard to that home without divulging too much on the day of the inspection there was a young person going through a crisis and what I would say is that there were 12 recommendations but there was no form of enforcement notice. It was not that serious; 8 out of the 12 have already been completed and 4 are well on their way to completion, but there were circumstances on the day that obviously led to those 12 recommendations. I do not know if Donna wants to add any more about it. I do not want to divulge anything.

Director, Children's Services:

I think you could say that it is a very small provision at that house and a lot of people turned up for a variety of reasons because that inspection was unannounced. I think the combination of those things led to that becoming quite heightened, that situation, and I think it is difficult when you are trying to do an inspection in that context. I think it was just a challenging situation. What I can say is that I think everything in that home since then has changed, since that inspection. The staffing group, the manager, there have been a range of changes around that anyway, not only linked to that inspection but just because of the residential estate itself.

We have got an entirely different level of oversight in there as well now and some of those issues as you can see have been addressed quite quickly, some of those areas for improvement.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Yes. Has the impact risk assessment now been completed? You mentioned 8 out of the 12.

Director, Children's Services:

Yes, the 4 that we have got outstanding is there is an issue around advocacy but that really has almost progressed. There was an issue around some of the holiday time for young people. There was something about the need to implement the therapeutic offer, which is a work underway that we cannot progress yet until we have concluded that piece of work, and about our training offer, the compulsory training of staff. We have got pressures in the residential estate across the piece really of capacity. We have got gaps in staffing, so getting that training through and the amount of training you have to do for residential work is extensive, keeping and getting everybody trained and getting them up to speed is quite challenging when you have got the gaps that we have got. That is the fourth thing.

The Connétable of Grouville :

My next questions were about that topic, if you do not mind, Minister. I will move on to those. One of the areas noted for urgent improvements was the recruitment and retention of full-time staff assigned to the service. What update can you provide about recruitment? How is that going?

Director, Children's Services:

It is challenging and remains challenging. Part of what we know we have got to do and this is a work under the reform programme is to really review the whole of the estate, and that is talking about the whole workforce offer as well. So have we got that right? Are the pay and conditions right? All of that work needs to be done for us to understand about if we have got that pitched in the right way and then does that mean that if we then review it we may find that we are more able to make better inroads into recruitment and retention.

[09:30]

Obviously the challenges that we have got in the workforce because of the gaps does make it a more challenging space for them to work in, so we have got work underway at the moment looking at the rotas, the systems, and can we run the amount that we have got? Have we got enough capacity to do what we are doing? That is quite an extensive improvement programme running at the moment trying to do that whole piece of work to get us into a better place that we can hopefully

The Connétable of Grouville :

A long-term strategy for the whole of Children's Services.

Director, Children's Services: Yes, it will be a long-term strategy.

Minister, what was your assessment of that report and where do you want to see the changes made in terms of the whole estate?

The Minister for Children and Families:

One thing I would say, we welcome independent inspection of this type because it focuses you on where there are weaknesses. As I say on the day there was some very challenging activity and I think that reinforces why we need the sort of therapeutic offer we are going to put in place. I view the report positively in that there were a number of areas that we needed to strengthen and I say strengthen because that is really what it was. As I say it was not any form of enforcement notice. They were recommendations of areas there that needed attention and we were very quickly able to deal with those, but I think it is a very good process because you cannot have your eye on everything all the time and having independent inspection is very valuable.

The Connétable of Grouville :

We acknowledge as a panel that the element of scale in Jersey makes this whole topic quite difficult, that you cannot offer it, so we are aware of that. It is strange in Donna's last answer she mentioned advocacy. The next question is about that. What is the status of the draft regulations for independent advocacy? The Minister had advised that these would be lodged in April of this year but this has not yet been actioned.

Assistant Director of Children's Policy: I can help. Minister, shall I respond?

The Minister for Children and Families: Yes.

Assistant Director of Children's Policy:

The draft regulations for independent advocacy have undergone a public consultation and that public consultation has now completed and the summary report from that consultation has been published. One of the themes that came back through the public consultation was the request or recommendation that a code of practice should be developed alongside the regulations, so for that reason we are taking our time and the Minister has decided to develop the code of practice alongside the regulations, which will allow us once that code of practice is completed to lodge the regulations and publish the code of practice at the same time. We are developing the code of practice with advocacy services on-Island as well as our own commissioning officers within C.Y.P.E.S. and we expect that work to be about to start and will be completed during the summer. I am working towards

the position that the Minister will be able to lodge those draft regulations and independent advocacy at the end of the year.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Thank you very much. The panel notes that the current arrangement for non-statutory independent advocacy services provided by Jersey carers and Barnardo's finishes in 2025. Can you describe what the advocacy services will look like after that?

The Minister for Children and Families:

They are going to be very similar although people will have tendered by then.

Assistant Director of Children's Policy:

There are a couple of elements to that. The benefit of having regulations and a code of practice is that you will be able to include as part of your commissioning process and point towards a consistent, generic and agreed set of code of practice, so it strengthens activity. As the Minister has said with the commissioning element to that it allows you to then build into your commissioning activity those regulations, those codes of practice so it is an overall strengthening rather than a vastly different set of services. It is about consistency and quality that it will bring to that particular area.

The Minister for Children and Families:

Malcolm and I meet with both advocacy services on a regular basis so there is very close contact even though it is not statutory. We are very close to both services and ensuring that every child is offered the opportunity and I think we even go back, if they have said no, we will go back again at a later stage and see if that is still the case.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

If I can add something. When you just talked about the review of all of it, such as pay and conditions and so on, is there a timeframe for the completion of that and will it be published?

Director, Children's Services:

We are just in the process of putting together the action plan around that whole programme as part of the reform programme, the improvement programme. In the next weeks we will have a much clearer structure about timelines and what that looks like. It was not a plan to publish it but it will go through the proper programme board process where it gets proper governance and scrutiny through that process.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay, so we can ask at our next hearing.

The Minister for Children and Families: Yes, and we can share it with you, yes.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

I will be asking some questions about foster carers now. My first question to you, Minister, is can you please share more details about the Time for Teens fostering campaign and the specific strategies being used to recruit more foster carers for teenagers?

The Minister for Children and Families:

Right, so the Time for Teens was part of that strategy. We had looked at previously adoption for younger children and we had also looked at where there might be a number of siblings but there was a clear gap where we have up to 10 teenage children who could benefit from fostering and the issue one has is that of course many fosterers prefer to have a younger child and the danger is that the older children could be left in care homes, which is very sad. We had quite a success with that Time for Teens and I am just looking at the figures, if somebody could oh, here we are, so we are currently working through 21 foster inquiries as a result of the 2 most recent campaigns, the teen campaign and Foster Care Fortnight. There were 7 households that came forward at the application and assessment stage. We have 2 new householders coming through the June fostering panel. This will mean that we have 11 households thus far in the first half of this year. The target was 10 for the whole year, so it has been very successful. There is no doubt that finding foster carers for the teenage children is one of the most difficult ones but we do have people who are coming through on that. I do not think we have got enough for 10 children but nevertheless it will have a positive impact and we just have to continue with that. If I can run through the things we have got where there will be a fostering presence we have got Jersey Children's Day, the foster care beach and games event

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Sorry, Minister, just before you go through that, I wanted to find the difference in terms of numbers. You did say there were 10 foster teenagers. How does that compare to the number of younger children, which seem to be an easier group of children to be fostered?

Director, Children's Services:

The majority of children that we have in care are older children, not younger children, and the majority coming into care new are older children, teenagers. I think that is no different to anywhere in the whole of the U.K. It is a pretty similar picture. We have probably fewer younger ones and some of that is about some of our care planning and the work we need to do to improve some of our social work practice. As we get better I think we will identify children younger and be a bit more proactive, so we have got work to do still.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

The reason why you have fewer younger children waiting to be fostered is because they tend to be fostered in the first place compared to the teenagers?

Director, Children's Services:

Our social work practice over time has not been very strong, so when you have got really strong social work practice you identify things early and children will come into care earlier. As your care planning gets stronger and your practice gets stronger you identify your worries and practice is a bit more decisive and then we act a bit more robustly. There is a bit of that and we have still got work to do about making that practice stronger and then we will identify those children earlier. Then you have got a little bit of a legacy of that not happening for quite a long time and so you have got the children that have got a bit older and then the new ones coming in are children who probably have had to struggle for a while and we have not brought in early enough and then they need much more work and much more help because the challenges are greater. So I think what you see is a bit of a legacy of where practice has been and then a little bit of what is common in social workers. Often children do come in later because families struggle with young people when they get older and they are more challenging and the challenges for them get greater as well and more complex.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

It is really good to hear that there is going to be that focus on improving the social work practice to identify children younger, but it is also really concerning that it is a problem that has been ongoing in the past.

Director, Children's Services:

There was a lot of work last year in trying to improve that, improve earlier care planning, permanence planning for children, thinking about identifying that early. I think the service have done quite a lot and I think the inspection in December identified some of that progress but was clearly saying there is still work to do. I think you have to see practice improvement in children's social care. It is a long- term piece of work. It takes several years to really change practice. It is quite a complex thing to shift and it requires lots of layers of work and that will take quite a long time.

The Connétable of Grouville :

May I just ask a supplemental? Since we started as a panel it has also been noted that there was at the outset quite a severe staff retention issue in the social work. How has that changed? Is that still the case or is there progress being made in that respect? We have heard of one child being given more than one social worker and having to start all over again. Is that still the case?

The Minister for Children and Families: There is improvement.

Director, Children's Services:

Yes, improvement, so I think if you look back several years you would have had probably 60 per cent or more where staff were not permanent. I think that is down to 43 per cent so it is improving, but still a way to go. Also I think if you are realistic you have to accept that probably in social work, particularly on an island, it is a really challenged sector. You are always going to have a proportion of your workforce where you are going to have interim social work use. You will never probably get it staffed to the degree that anyone would want. That would fit and mirror the U.K. A good percentage of local authorities would have probably a quarter of their workforce vacant or getting on for that and using the interim market. I think it is more challenged here for a variety of reasons due to distance, people's living accommodation, all the challenges that come with living on an island will make it a bit more difficult to recruit and retain in that little space as well.

The Minister for Children and Families:

Sometimes a child's social worker can change for other reasons. It is not always because of staffing issues. I am trying to think.

[09:45]

Director, Children's Services:

Because it is right for the child. They are growing up, a bit older, they go to a new team that has got a specialism.

The Minister for Children and Families: Circumstances change and so

Director, Children's Services: They ask for someone new.

The Minister for Children and Families: It is not always due to the staffing situation.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Minister, I am going to go back to Time for Teens and the fostering campaign. I have got a feeling you did say you are pleased with it?

The Minister for Children and Families: Yes.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

With the way it is going, so my question to you is how are you measuring its success at the moment? How can you tell that it has been successful and you are pleased with that?

The Minister for Children and Families:

I think our success is from the number of people who came forward to offer their services. I think we have already covered that we already have surpassed our target for the year and we are in June. We will rerun the teenager campaign but I think we have sufficient people to go through training at the moment not to do that too quickly. I think you have to say that to get 7 households that come forward is quite an achievement. I am counting up the number of other things they are going to do in the rest of the year, 14 more events where they will have a presence or there will be some sort of advertising. It is 15 because I saw that Lauren has taken a stall at our summer fete at St. Peter 's which is very good of her to spend her Saturday. The staff are very committed to wanting this to be a success.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

The initial feedback sounds really good. How would you intend to sustain and build upon the initial response for foster parents? How do you intend to keep that momentum?

The Minister for Children and Families:

There is a whole package of things. We have to continue to make foster carers know that we value them so we have started having one or 2 social events. We had one at Easter and then there is a barbecue organised in a few weeks' time. I would think we will do something later on in the year after that. That is part of it. We have looked at the package. We have a much closer relationship with them now. We have regular meetings with the foster carers and I think that is coming through. They can feel that new relationship. The atmosphere at the meetings is much better.

Assistant Minister for Children and Families:

There is a peer-to-peer support network so other foster carers talk to each other about the challenges they face and the solutions that they have found. It is really nice to see that they are supporting each other as well as us supporting them as much as we can.

Almost the community supporting itself. That sounds really good.

The Minister for Children and Families:

They are not frightened about telling us if there is an issue now. We had undertaken an exercise, the 3 words, that they had gone around to all the fosterers and asked them to write down 3 words to sum up their experience. They presented that to us and it is quite valuable. It was in effect anonymous so we did not know who had provided each of the 3 words or we did not know which words each person had used but it is very valuable.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

I would like to know those 3 top words.

The Connétable of Grouville : Yes, what are they?

The Minister for Children and Families:

There were multiple words that people had written down. Each had to write 3 words that summed up their experience. It is good. There is a much better relationship. I do not think we would have seen that openly done a couple of years ago. It shows that they know that we will look at it positively and not take it as criticism.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

So the campaign is going well, positive?

The Minister for Children and Families:

There were some positive words there, which was very good.

Chief Officer, Children, Young People, Education and Skills Department: There is more to do. We recognise there is more to do.

The Minister for Children and Families: We do.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

I am going to ask you a question in relation to costs. How do you feel the running costs of this campaign is going? Do you have a figure at the moment or did you have a budget for that?

Malcolm, you were going to cover this. I will hand over. Sorry about that.

Assistant Minister for Children and Families:

That is okay. It is all good, it is all positive. The budget for the year is just under £30,000 so we have spent up to this point about half of that. You mentioned before what success looks like. Success to me looks like better outcomes for our young people and when you think not only in terms of the cost of putting young people into residential care or worse still having to send them off Island, they lose connection with their community and their friends. Success is about keeping children in a well-rounded setting so that they grow up to have productive, connected lives. There is a budget. We have spent half of it; it is a drop in the ocean when you consider the cost of residential care or off-Island care.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée : The quality of care.

Assistant Minister for Children and Families: Much better quality, exactly.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Thank you for that. What specific challenges do you face in finding suitable homes for teenagers and how are you addressing those challenges at the moment?

Assistant Minister for Children and Families:

It is always a challenge because part of the campaign is to put ourselves out there. The Minister and I go to some of those events and meet with people who are perhaps interested in becoming foster carers. You have to be honest and open about the positive aspects and the challenges that come with that role, but we have got 2 foster care ambassadors who do a fantastic job in promoting it and telling people what it means to be a foster carer. It is something that some people want to have that initial conversation, they want to explore the opportunities and they want to go away and think about it, but if you can speak to someone who has got that lived experience, provides that and has really transformed a young person's life it is such a powerful thing to get involved in. Those ambassadors really push that positive message while telling people about everything that comes with it.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Can I just add to that? I think 49 per cent of households now in Jersey are rentals, so is this a challenge, the idea that people may feel they may have to move in a year or 2, so lack of security of tenure available.

Assistant Minister for Children and Families:

Yes. I guess people's lives change and that is part of telling people where the challenges are. That does not mean at all that someone who is in a rental accommodation should not become a foster carer, of course not, but that is an extra dimension that people need to consider. How secure is their tenancy and what are the options if they find that they need to move that tenancy? Again that is part of the rounded service and support that we offer people and part of the realistic challenges that we understand people face.

The Minister for Children and Families:

If I can add something, I met someone at one of the events who was in one of Andium Homes and they were full of praise for the support that they had had from Andium as well.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

That is good to know, so people should not be put off at all if they feel they might have to move. They can still apply.

Assistant Minister for Children and Families:

Exactly. They have still got people who are dependent on them and that forms very much part of the picture when they are seeking a new tenancy or they need support in finding a new tenancy.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

I am going to go back to the Minister. You did say on record in the States Assembly that you think Jersey should move away from multiple care homes to a fostering service. Can you explain how much change it will need for that to take place?

The Minister for Children and Families:

We are in the early days of that, in that we are building up a larger pool of foster carers. It is also about having the right foster carers, the sufficiency, that you have the correct foster care, so for instance we know we need at the moment foster carers for teenagers, but the ultimate aim is that one would hope that within a couple of years we are at the point where we might be reducing by one or 2 children's homes. We have to wait and see but that is the aim. Foster caring and putting a young person with a family is so much more beneficial than, sadly, children who remain in a home. The other thing that I said about teenagers is of course it is the one instance where you are likely to get a young person staying beyond the normal cut-off point of 18. That in itself of course uses up a

space in those important foster carers who look after teenagers. That will use up a space. On the other side of it for those people who feel they want to stay it is very important that they have that family still to support them. There are positives in everything. At the moment I am very pleased with the progress that we are making in the fostering campaign and the new relationship that we are developing with the carers.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

That sounds really good. Is there any point asking if you have got any timeline to move from where we are to the magic number of one?

The Minister for Children and Families:

I think that is a difficult one. Ask us in a future session. Give us a little time to get everything in place.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Yes, of course. What is the main difference between the support provided in care homes and the support provided in foster homes? How does the department ensure that foster carers can replicate a family-type environment?

The Minister for Children and Families:

I think foster care is always going to be a more family-type environment. Everything you do to a care home, everything you can possibly do, it still is not the same as a family. You will have a residential manager there, you may have other children coming in and out and maybe there for a short time, they might move to another home. It is more how does a children's home replicate what a foster family can do? I think it is the other way around.

Assistant Minister for Children and Families:

Because what young people gain in a foster home is those soft skills that are sometimes hard to teach unless you have got that real close contact on a one-to-one. It can be just basically cooking a meal, baking, managing your finances, just the little things in life that we get taught from parents and almost go unnoticed. Some of those things need to be implanted into a residential setting and people who work in those residential homes do the best that they can in those circumstances but there is nothing like living with someone to really learn from them.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Can you elaborate on the interim measures being taken to ensure that children currently in care homes receive the best possible care while the fostering service is expanding? We know that

That has always got to be our aim, to give them that best possible care. I think we mentioned the report earlier but I would say that all our homes are attempting to be as close as they can to family life but it is difficult to achieve that in that type of environment. All I can say is that is what we would always aim to do.

Director, Children's Services:

Also I suppose you are asking a bit about the assurance of how we oversee that and there are multiple layers of assurance that happen across the department to make sure that the care of those children is as it should be. We have all of the reviews that happen for children, which is reviewing the care plan and where the children are. We have the managers in the homes and then we have the managers above those managers that provide another layer of quality assurance and oversight.

[10:00]

All of the action plans that you have seen around the home that we have looked at today, they are regularly overviewed. They come to me, they come to Rob Sainsbury as the Chief Officer, they come to the Minister. We have 31 visiting, so we have an independent visitor who comes into every property once a month. They will check about if we are meeting the standards, if the right things are happening for children, are the right things in place, and that report comes to all of us again and we have an opportunity to review them. They have an action plan that sits underneath them. We monitor those action plans that sit underneath those as well and when there are things that are not progressing they should come to me so that I can look and try to make sure that we do something more decisive. Then we have got inspection regulation which is happening all of the time as well.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée : Very robust?

Director, Children's Services:

Yes. That is the difference I suppose between running a children's home and a child living with a family. If they live with a family life is normal. In a children's home you have got this inspection and the regulation, people coming and going, all of the difference about how you keep medication or what things look like in a home, the fire systems, that you would never have in a home. It is a very different experience with a lot more regulation and a lot more oversight because we are caring for children and that is our job.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Does the Jersey Care Commission review the foster care as well?

Director, Children's Services: Yes.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée : How has this been received?

Chief Officer, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

We have not received the inspection report yet. Do you mean how is it received by the foster carers?

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée : No, by the Care Commission.

Director, Children's Services:

The inspection of the fostering service rather than the foster carer. Foster carers get overseen by Children's Services, so we have got fostering officers and managers. They will have regular reviews of the carers, regular supervision with the carer, visiting, going to check the house, the property, things that happen day to day. The child's care plan gets reviewed the same as well, so that is another layer of oversight, through the independent reviewing officer. Then the fostering service - so my service that is sitting with me - gets inspected and that inspection has taken place recently and we are waiting for the report that will be published in July. That will talk about how effectively the fostering service oversees fostering and those carers, and the support around them, and the assessment and support packages that are in place for them.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

I was just going to say, we have just gone halfway through; we still have a lot of questions so we may have to keep our questions and answers a bit more concise.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Minister, can you describe some of the main learnings from previous fostering campaigns and how these are being used to improve the service? You rightfully said that the feedback has been so much better so what is being done different this time?

The Minister for Children and Families:

The first one which we have certainly addressed and which was one of my aims is the lack of contact from perhaps the Minister, and that leading to people not feeling that they were valued. We had a lot of feedback over problems with payments; that was a particular problem when I was the Assistant Minister, something which we have addressed.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

This was to do with the computerised thing, was it not?

The Minister for Children and Families:

Yes, and that went on for longer than one would have wanted it to go on. Despite assurances it was fixed we kept on having people who did not receive payment, did not have information for their tax returns, but that is now fully addressed. They are getting regular payments when they should do. When they are making claims those are going through without issue. Those were the 2 things that I can immediately think of, both of which were addressed. As I say, the fact that we are having these meetings, the fact that we are having social events, they are particularly good at getting feedback.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

I suppose it is the gathering people and their community spirit. I am going to be asking you questions about the agreement between Jersey and the U.K. who are in care off the Island.

The Minister for Children and Families:

Children in care off the Island; a recent independent inspection has reviewed all our off-Island placements, but during 2023 the previous Minister had of course initiated contact with the Minister in the U.K. for Children, Families and Wellbeing - I have not got that bit in my title - and requested an amendment to the law in England and Wales. We were certainly progressing that, but with the call for the general election of course they are now in purdah so all that work has stopped at their end. What concerns me is that we will probably have to start a new contact with a new Minister and a new set of civil servants probably, and that is concerning because we were making good progress. One thing we could note is that I think probably at the last time we met there were 16 children in care off-Island; there are now 12. So the number is constantly decreasing. I can remember it being 20-odd, 21, 22 at one stage. So that is a sign that we are relying less on off-Island placements.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

During the States Assembly on 30th April there was a reference to a reciprocal agreement regarding Jersey children in care and correspondence with the U.K. Department for Education. Can you provide ...

The Minister for Children and Families:

I have just covered that. We are in purdah now so of course that work has ... we were making progress on that. Sadly because of the call for the U.K. election in fact that has stopped and the worst thing is that we will now have to start liaising with a new Minister.

Can you maybe tell us a little bit about the consultation you have had with the Children's Commissioner for Jersey about the proposed amendments, if you had any?

Assistant Director of Children's Policy:

I did. On the point of the amendments with the new Children's Commissioner as she came into post, I along with colleagues from the Law Office took time to go through the scope of the amendments that the Minister was proposing so the Children's Commissioner's office was clear what we were asking for. The relevance there of course is that the U.N. (United Nations) Committee in their recommendations following their review of the U.K. State Party made specific reference to strengthening some of the children's rights elements of U.K. placements. So this is one strand of that, but the Commissioner was satisfied and understood the scope of amendments being requested.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Are there any steps expected to take forward, or timelines after that conversation?

Assistant Director of Children's Policy:

If I may just build on what the Minister said. Currently the U.K. are in purdah. What I have done is kept a meeting with my civil servant equivalent in the D.F.E. (Department for Education) post- election to begin to plan, as the Minister has said, our next steps, which may or may not include starting again with ministerial correspondence supported by the M.O.J. (Minister of Justice) which had a good effect the first time. I think we may have to go around again, so end of July is that meeting.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée : Okay, we may come back to that then.

Assistant Director of Children's Policy: Yes, so please do.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

So maybe you could just talk about secure accommodation for young children at the moment. Minister, can you describe your understanding of what would be the best practice for secure accommodation for young children in Jersey?

The Minister for Children and Families:

Obviously secure accommodation is something that you would want to use as little as possible. It can arise in 2 different ways; a young person can have a sentence from the court, or a secure care order is issued. I think we have seen a reducing number of secure care orders, which is good. They still occur from time to time and they would relate to children that usually have very specialist needs. There are perhaps 2 bits of legislation which impact on this and the first one is the Draft Children and Young People (Place of Police Detention) (Amendments) Law. This is in collaboration with the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs. The purpose of the amendments, if they are accepted by the Assembly, provide a new option to remand a child or young person between 10 and 18 years old in the event they are arrested, charged, and due to appear before the next available court with the option that if bail is refused that child could be placed into non-secure suitable accommodation provided by the Minister for Children and Families. Now, this is an option that is available in the U.K. but I think the word "suitable" with accommodation is the key word. This is quite a specialist service where there are specific beds available in the U.K. for this option. A child who is in our care is easily accommodated within this new law because they have an existing care home. However, a child who is not in our care presents some difficulties and we do not have those facilities on the Island and, therefore, the legislation is correct in that it is an option in the U.K. and we are quite happy with that, but it will take some time to develop something that is suitable. You cannot take a child who is not in our care and place them into one of our children's homes. That could create a harmful situation with the other children and it could be harmful to the child who is being placed there, so you cannot do it. In the U.K. there is a specialist sort of fostering service where there is a guaranteed bed available and the council involved would pay for that service to be available 24/7/365.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

What about, Minister, more specifically in Jersey? Have you had an opportunity to have these conversations with any other experts who provide the service ...

The Minister for Children and Families:

There are no experts in Jersey who provide that service.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Okay, so agencies like the Prison Service, Probation Service, Children's Service, Children's Commissioner?

The Minister for Children and Families:

We are due to meet the Children's Commissioner on this subject. We have certainly had discussions with Probation and with Justice and Home Affairs, who are fully aware that this is a piece of U.K.

legislation and there has to be an awareness that you cannot simply pick this up and say: "Right, next week." It cannot work like that.

[10:15]

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

The panel has received a briefing on this law change and we were wondering about the practicalities of it because although it is really good, we could imagine maybe a younger teenager who cannot go back home and secure accommodation is too much, and that some specialised unsecured accommodation would be perfect. But what is there?

The Minister for Children and Families:

There is no such accommodation here. Perhaps there needed to be a little bit more research into the practicalities of picking up the U.K. legislation and looking into how this was done in the U.K., because it is a specialist service. It is not just placing a child in a care home, which I think there may have been an assumption there, but that is not the case. You also have to look at the very limited possibilities of using this because what are the circumstances. You have either got a very serious offence where in fact they would have to go to secure accommodation, but what are the circumstances under which you would not allow them to return to their own parents?

Deputy C.D . Curtis : Danger in the home.

The Minister for Children and Families: That is the one, yes.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Yes, but that might arise sometimes but not very often.

The Minister for Children and Families:

Yes, and then if that was the case they might well be taken into our care and they would be placed in a care home. So it is something but I can think of a few instances where you might use this and, therefore, we are going to have to develop a service that is probably unique to Jersey.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

The last time the panel was at La Moye Prison there was a situation where there could be made a specific area for young offenders. What is the Government's present position on the future use of La Moye Prison for secure youth custody?

I would not wish to see the prison used unless under absolute exceptional circumstances, which did occur once in the last 2 years. But I absolutely would not wish to see the prison used as any form of option, no.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Thank you, Minister. What are the Government's plans for the future use of Greenfields Secure Children's Home?

The Minister for Children and Families:

Greenfields has to remain as a secure unit, certainly for those children who are given sentences by the court. There will always be a need for that. Its use under secure orders has become less and less. As I said in my last interview, my view is that we have to look at making changes to Greenfields. It was originally built for 8 young people; it is registered for substantially less than that now. There is quite a large unused area and we need to look at how that can be positively used. I talked about how the Isle of Man do it; as an initial idea that is a very positive one but we may want to make our own local changes to that model as well. Of course you then come back to funding to make those changes because the very fact that it is built as a prison means that any changes you are going to make to the internal structure are going to be quite expensive. But that is our aim that we make better use of what is there and that it is positively used.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

It is good you see that there is a need for change. Outside the structure of the building change is also needed. How would you improve other changes, say for instance making sure the young offenders are provided with education, therapeutical care areas; are you looking at that side as well?

The Minister for Children and Families:

I would certainly see our therapeutic service will certainly cover Greenfields, there is no doubt about that and in fact some of the young people there probably very much need that type of service. There is already education provided. I would certainly like to see other skills developed. We went to the Isle of Man and, as I say, they had a number of kitchens within the one unit and so, therefore, they were able to teach the skills, particularly food preparation. One chap had already left with food preparation qualifications and could go out and use that in his new job. They also had a workshop where one of them was learning the skills to repair bicycles, he had a real interest in this, and somebody was in there teaching him. So those are the sort of activities that I would like to encourage because you do not want somebody to leave there having made very little use of the time there, or been able to improve their situation.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée :

Maybe more tailor-made educational training qualifications.

The Minister for Children and Families: Yes.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M Porée : Thank you, Minister.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

If I can just follow that up. Things like the food skills and cycle workshops; when might this happen in Greenfields?

The Minister for Children and Families: That is part of ... what was that sorry?

Director, Children's Services: Building a plan.

The Minister for Children and Families:

Yes, as yet we have got to put a plan together. As I say, financing of it is an issue.

Chief Officer, Children, Young People, Education and Skills Department:

It would mean a change in our current educational offer which is more academic linked and that is more of a vocational offer, and that is something that we are looking to develop with support around other activities that might be for young people who are not in education or employment who could also have access if they are in the secure unit. So we are working on that with Skills. In terms of other therapeutic offers, C.A.M.H.S., arts and other therapies are very much available within the unit.

The Minister for Children and Families:

We thought the Youth Service could also play a role there as well. We have not as yet got a plan but we have a number of themes that we wish to work on.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Great, so we can follow that up. I just wanted to go back to ask one question about the children in care off-Island. I think you mentioned there had recently been inspections of their placements?

The Minister for Children and Families: Yes.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Right now I cannot remember if I have seen them but they were all okay?

The Minister for Children and Families: Yes, I think they were quite positive.

Director, Children's Services:

The December one all of the children were reviewed and the care was found to be really good quality for those children. The recent inspection we have had in May a number of the children were reviewed again and the outcomes were the same, still positive about the quality and the extent of the care that they are receiving. That is 2 external, independent inspections that are saying the same thing.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

That is good. Would the panel be able to see those?

Director, Children's Services:

The December report is already available; we could certainly get that for you.

Deputy C.D . Curtis : Please, yes.

Director, Children's Services:

The one that was done in May is just about due to come to us for the first level of accuracy checking and then it is due to be published at the end of July so after July you will be able to have that.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Thank you. I have some questions now, I am going to skip the first set of questions because if we do run out of time they could be answered well as written questions I think. If I move on then to ask about play spaces. Referring to the Right to Play campaign by the Jersey Youth Parliament, I wanted to ask, are Government taking on board the findings and feedback from this campaign?

The Minister for Children and Families: We are, but I am going to ask Malcolm ...

Assistant Minister for Children and Families:

Yes, we absolutely are. In response to that particular recommendation from the Youth Parliament there has been convened a group of representatives from across Government and other stakeholders and, dare I say, Connétable s have probably got a place to play in this. The whole point of that is that they consulted back with the Youth Parliament to develop a play policy. Obviously a play policy takes into account children with disabilities, make spaces as accessible as they can to people in the right areas. So there is an ongoing piece of work which has started in direct response to that campaign from the Jersey Youth Parliament, so it does really show the power that those young people have when they debate these issues and bring forward proposals, how they can be acted upon. So it is still very much in the gestation but you can see places like St. Martin and the way they transformed an area which was little used and now it is a thriving area for children to play safely, it is completely accessible. It is a good news story; we just need all the parishes to come on board and I am sure they are more than willing to find the appropriate spaces. The money of course is another issue but those obstacles will be met when they come along so, yes, we are acting on them.

The Minister for Children and Families:

Just to say that certainly some of the Constables already had their own play strategy in place before this. It is sad but the creation of play spaces is not always viewed positively by some of the public. I do find that sad. I think there was a recent parish I will not name who went forward to create and renovate an existing space and there was a vote against it. I am aware in my own parish that you do not always get positive comments when you say: "We would like to create a play area." Anyway, it is something we have to deal with but, thank you, Malcolm.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

If there was a way to get more younger people involved in the parishes that would be good.

The Minister for Children and Families: Yes, exactly.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Is this play policy going to be published?

Assistant Minister for Children and Families:

That is currently being worked on so as soon as that is produced we will be able to get that to the panel.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

On a different subject, the Youth Parliament's report referred to their thoughts for Fort Regent. Could you confirm if their ideas have been put forward for consideration by Government?

The Minister for Children and Families: Fort Regent?

Assistant Minister for Children and Families: Fort Regent?

Deputy C.D . Curtis : Yes, it is in their report.

Assistant Minister for Children and Families:

Okay. I know that the recommendations in their report are all being looked at so that would be one perhaps for the Minister for Infrastructure. If we can feed into that and help provide good spaces for young people then we will certainly get on board with that.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

I know this is quite cross-departmental; have you had conversations with other Ministers to do with play policy, for example? You have said about the Connétable s, of course.

The Minister for Children and Families:

I have, yes, and I think Malcolm has as well. Certainly with the Minister for Infrastructure, who is keen and I think we have his support on taking things forward and perhaps working with the parishes as well who have got their own ideas on where they might create play spaces. So, yes, certainly with the Minister for Infrastructure. I think that is probably the main one.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Good. It is important that children have areas to play in.

The Minister for Children and Families:

I think the play strategy is sort of in effect looking for a Minister that will take ...

Assistant Minister for Children and Families: Get a grip on it.

The Minister for Children and Families:

Get hold of it, and I think that may be resolved soon. [10:30]

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Good, okay. Just a couple of points about the design of the play areas. Who does the design work? I expect it is different according to where it is, but there is not any overall plan, is there, about green areas and so on in play areas?

The Minister for Children and Families:

Working with Planning and the Minister for Infrastructure I would hope that it is more co-ordinated now.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

So there will be an effort to get a more co-ordinated plan?

The Minister for Children and Families:

Outside of St. Helier it very much has been the responsibility of the Constables. There are very few Government-created play areas outside of St. Helier . I do think that Government have got a role to play in assisting. I think the planning process needs to be looked at. Things, for instance, in the U.K. that are permitted with regard to play areas require planning permission here which adds to the complexity. I know St. Martin hit this issue with one of the bits of equipment certainly required planning permission but it was exempt in the U.K. (United Kingdom).

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

So that is something that needs to be looked at then?

The Minister for Children and Families:

Yes. Because we have got a large development in St. Peter , rezoned land we are looking at, we are working with the developers on creation of a play area which I think we would do jointly. We have already put money aside for that so I do hope

Deputy C.D . Curtis : Where is that one?

The Minister for Children and Families:

We have in total 176 houses on rezoned land. Planning permission has been submitted for the first 46 and then I think the other 130 which are on a different site will follow fairly quickly, so I am working with the developers on where we create that play area.

Deputy B.B. de S.DV.M. Porée : In St. Peter ?

The Minister for Children and Families: Yes.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

So that is good. Also with the play areas, I did see one just recently, a newish one, that had no greenery in it, was a space with something in the centre and it was disappointing, so I do hope there will be a co-ordinated plan.

The Minister for Children and Families: It is quite sad.

Deputy C.D . Curtis : Yes.

The Minister for Children and Families: We are not planning anything like that.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Good. Just moving on then to a youth centre for St. Helier , I know that, Deputy Ferey , you have said that you want to progress this and could you update us on that?

Assistant Minister for Children and Families:

Things are progressing. Obviously negotiations are still very sensitive at the moment, but we have identified a site and I am still working towards getting something moving before the end of this term of office. So things are looking quite positive at the moment but until we get everything signed and sealed it is hard to deliver you anything more tangible than that. Certainly both Richard and I have been working really hard on this because we are determined to see a new facility in town. Particularly the area that we are looking at will be well served because it is an area which is developing, that part of town. Young people do need those safe spaces to play and be educated informally as well, so we will be very happy to let the panel know when we have got something more tangible.

The Minister for Children and Families:

I think we can go as far as to say that for the first time a site is earmarked.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

That is great, so there is a specific site with negotiations underway?

The Minister for Children and Families: There is, yes.

Assistant Minister for Children and Families: Yes, exactly.

The Minister for Children and Families: One that the Youth Service are keen on.

Assistant Minister for Children and Families: Yes, it fits the bill.

The Minister for Children and Families: Yes, and we are in negotiations now.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

That sounds good. The panel noted that the Youth Parliament's final report includes a recommendation that there should be free access or heavily subsidised entrance into government- run sport centres. What are your thoughts about this recommendation?

Assistant Minister for Children and Families:

I think anything that can encourage young people to stay healthy and exercise has to be encouraged. Again, that would be down to the Minister for Infrastructure; that fits in his portfolio, but, yes, again, we would make representations to make sure that that is seen through.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Yes, it certainly seems to make sense, does it not? Will you be formally responding to the Youth Parliament's report and recommendations?

Assistant Minister for Children and Families:

I think there will be a co-ordinated response to all of them. Already action is happening and it is really important that those young people get feedback on the progress of all the items that they have raised so, yes, that will be something that we will endeavour to undertake.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

You will speak to the Minister with responsibility for sport on this matter?

Assistant Minister for Children and Families: Yes, exactly.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Great, okay. I have a few questions now which were prompted by a court report to do with Children's Services. So asking generally about this, could you tell us about the Minister's involvement with court applications, for example, where an interim care order is applied for, and there has been involvement with Children's Services, how much is the Minister involved with these?

The Minister for Children and Families:

I am certainly aware of court orders being applied for. I will take advice obviously from the officers because they will have all the information available. But, yes, I am aware of when a court order is requested and I am kept briefed on why that particular action is required.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay. Because I was looking at a case I think from last month and The Guardian criticised decisions made by the Children's Service which could have impacted on the children's safety, so a serious matter; this was made public by the Royal Court. Do Children's Services review actions that have taken place when we hear the problems come out, criticism, and are the court's responses monitored by Children's Services? I expect they must be.

The Minister for Children and Families:

Yes. I think I can recall the reference to safe, yes.

Director of Children's Services:

Yes, whatever is going into the court, those officers will come back and feed back to managers in the office. There is a dialogue of meetings with legal, the Law Officers' Department, there is a regular interface with them around some of those issues. We have just set up to have that more regularly with myself and the senior lawyers in that department as well. Then also I think something that will help around the interface of some of those themes and issues that you see, they have just decided to set up a Family Justice Council in Jersey for the first time. It is the first day tomorrow.

The first meeting of that board will come together tomorrow as a group and start to explore some of those issues because I guess different people might say different things at court proceedings and may have a different view. The Guardian's view may be very different to what Children's Services may be. It is not always necessary that one is right or wrong, it is a different perspective on a matter, really. So some of those will become themes around you might get that issue come up 3 times, you might think it is a bit of theme. That is the sort of thing you would expect that Family Justice Council to be taking away and starting to say: "Have we got issues about timeliness or court proceedings or safety?" things like that.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Yes. Who will be on this Family Justice Council?

Director of Children's Services:

Myself. I will be sitting on that. Yes, I will be the senior officer on there and it will have judges, the J.F.C.A.S. (Jersey Family Court Advisory Service)

The Minister for Children and Families: Myself, the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs.

Director of Children's Services:

Yes, so it is a range. It is all the partners that are involved in court proceedings would be part of that wholescale oversight of the judicial system, really. Our lawyers.

The Minister for Children and Families:

The Deputy Bailiff is chairing it for the first year, is he not?

Director of Children's Services: Yes.

Deputy C.D . Curtis : That is good.

Director of Children's Services:

It is quite a common thing in the U.K. so it sits quite well.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

We can be assured that if concerns are raised about children not being kept safe that this is all being monitored and responded to?

The Minister for Children and Families: Absolutely.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Also the decisions made that maybe put them there considered?

Director of Children's Services:

Yes, we would expect the court to be raising them and we will be picking them up, absolutely.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay, thank you. Now I have a question about something completely different, so online safety. Just one question on this, does the Minister think that Jersey children should be afforded the same protection as U.K. children as offered by the Online Safety Act?

The Minister for Children and Families:

I do and we certainly intend to do that. It is quite a difficult area to legislate on because much of it will the removal of harmful material, for instance, is very much in the hands of the providers or the people hosting those sites but I know we did not take the opportunity to join the U.K. legislation. I think it is important we are seen to have our own legislation; being part of a U.K. Act is not necessarily the right way to do this. It is quite interesting, the effectiveness of the British Ofcom (Office of Communications), for instance, the British online regulator, in a meeting only about a month ago they said that they are at this time unable to respond to the complaints of individual citizens. I would not want to find myself locally in that position so, yes, I think absolutely we need to be afforded the same protection as the Online Safety Act and currently the digital economy team are looking at that.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

The panel are still doing work on this and will expect to follow this up at another point but thank you for answering that question. I can go back then to ask some questions about the Children, Young People and Families' Plan. This latest plan differs from the previous version, the Strategic Plan, so I wanted to ask as well, what are some specific examples of the strategic action points from the plan that you hope to implement within this term?

The Minister for Children and Families:

We are looking at the 5 main themes: that young people are healthy and happy, can learn and achieve, enjoy a decent standard of living, are safe and loved, and I included respected and valued. I think those are all things we hold to as Children's Services. We need to be very aware of those and they are absolutely key. We are working with chief officers to see how other departments can contribute to that because it is not just chief officers, it is a responsibility of all government departments, so we are actively doing that at the moment. Within the Children and Young People (Jersey) Law, responsible Ministers must report to the Assembly on the extent to which they have achieved the aims of the plan, so that is within the legislation and I would want to see that across the whole of government.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Yes, so that would be working with the Minister for Health and Social Services, the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs, the Minister for Housing?

The Minister for Children and Families: Yes.

[10:45]

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

So you are already discussing all this?

The Minister for Children and Families: Yes.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Has work been done to review the funding and budgets for some of the strategies under the big picture outcome?

Chief Officer, Children, Young People, Education and Skills: In terms of sorry, I am not sure I

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

The plan details key programmes under each big picture outcome, so what work is being done to review funding and budgets for these specific strategies?

Chief Officer, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

In terms of the department responsibilities specifically, that will be for each of the chief officers to work through with their Ministers, so thinking about the health response, the housing response and they will need to respond and develop their plans to meet the objectives of the children plan. Certainly in our department that is the entirety of what our C.Y.P.E.S. offer needs to be and

particularly Children's Services, C.A.M.H.S. ,Youth Services and all of our own individual areas which are costed within our improvement requirements, and other departments will need to do the same.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

So all these key programmes on that are considered in everything under C.Y.P.E.S. and so on?

The Minister for Children and Families: Certainly under C.Y.P.E.S.

Chief Officer, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

Yes, and they are shared with all of the other Ministers and chief officers. It is being shared with the executive leadership team and recently the Council of Ministers have seen it. It is a broadly circulated plan and it has been accepted.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Great, okay. We did note that the plan, although it was published, was not formally presented to the States Assembly and we wondered why this approach was taken.

Chief Officer, Children, Young People, Education and Skills: I do not think the plan was previously Andrew you

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Well, because I have got a note here the previous plan was published as R39-2019.

Senior Policy Officer:

It may have been. There is no underlying reason why it was not; there is no requirement under the law to present it formally as an R. The publication of the plan on the States website and the communication in media around this version of the plan has been quite widespread, so the effect is the same but there is no underlying reason why.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

So no reason for that really?

Senior Policy Officer: No.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Just asking now about mechanisms in place to monitor and review the progress of a plan. How will you monitor that children are feeling included, respected and valued at home and in school?

Senior Policy Officer: May I?

The Minister for Children and Families: Yes.

Senior Policy Officer:

So there are a number of elements to that, if I may. The Children and Young People's Survey which happens every 2 years; I often say twice a year, that is every 2 years, and that is years 6, 8, 9, 10 and 12, led by the Jersey Statistics Unit, is a key piece of work that will help us follow and track some of the trends. That is happening later this year, so that survey will be happening later and will be a key part of the overall monitoring of the plan. The other thing I would add to that is that the Island Outcomes have recently been reviewed as part of Future Jersey and there is an intention and an aspiration, if you remember the wheel of outcomes, to develop a similar wheel of indicators for children and young people which again will give us oversight of the whole system focused on outcomes for children and young people. Those mechanisms will provide a level of monitoring. Then I think in the plan we also mention spotlights and deep dives, so we are currently looking and working with chief officers and their departments as to where some of the best opportunities are to do that deep dive. We can go down into service level-type activity which will help get us a bit closer to the experience of practitioners, to the experience of young people themselves in relation to particular subject areas. Is that

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Yes, that is good. The Children and Young People's Survey then that will come out, the results will be next year, I suppose, will they not?

Senior Policy Officer:

Yes, it will be early next year that the results will be published.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay. As for children in school we see that there have been some children not going to school recently. Are there any barriers to engagement in education? Are they being addressed? You know, schools being made nicer or

The Minister for Children and Families:

That is really for the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning but

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

The reason I am asking is because it is in the Children, Young People and Families' Plan.

The Minister for Children and Families: Yes.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Yes, so I just wondered if

Chief Officer, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

So this is part of the whole inclusion charter that we are working through with the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning and part of the special education support that we are providing. The virtual school is very closely linked to Children's Services so we will look to strengthen that but there is a huge programme around getting greater inclusion and to address absence from school and also to target children who are not accessing education the way that they need to and, as you mentioned, engagement is a key part of that.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

But that is crossing over into education as well.

Chief Officer, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

Yes, it is one of the biggest strategic intentions of that Minister to address.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay. You have mentioned about monitoring. Is there a plan for implementing priorities outlined in the plan? What is the priority?

Senior Policy Officer:

So the way that the Children and Young People's Plan works is that the programmes for the different departments are, as the chief officer has outlined, are connected to those outcomes, so it is for those departments to follow through and deliver on their stated departmental programmes that connect to the plan. The emphasis during the monitoring for us is to try and look at what the outcomes are.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Yes, so each department will have their responsibilities according to the plan?

Senior Policy Officer: Yes.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

But does this department oversee the whole thing?

Senior Policy Officer:

Have a leadership role in that space, clearly. The Minister chairs a Children's Outcomes Executive Committee which has an oversight of the plan and will monitor that.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Great, okay. Can you elaborate for the panel on the current status and challenges faced in ensuring all children have appropriate stable housing? So, again, I know it is a different department directly but it is part of the plan.

Senior Policy Officer:

I do not have any kind of yes, go on.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Does the Minister have a thought about that? Because it is something that children have raised as a particular issue, is it not?

The Minister for Children and Families:

Yes, I think the one thing you can say is that all the current new developments are very focused on affordable family accommodation, that land that is being rezoned in the Island Plan, and those are coming on board. There is a real emphasis that those will improve children's lives. I certainly know also in the rental sector the provider is short of family homes and therefore those building projects will bring much needed accommodation which will improve the lives of children.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

So not more one-bedroom flats then?

The Minister for Children and Families:

No, most of the rezoned housing I think that was rezoned in the Island Plan will be for 3 and 4- bedroom houses, yes.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Yes, okay, that is good. I just have another question, really, which is still around the Children, Young People and Families' Plan. It does not reference governmental support to children who are living in poverty. Can you inform the panel why this was not included? You have got your big picture outcome 3 which is

The Minister for Children and Families: Enjoy a decent standard of living.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Yes, so that they enjoy a decent standard of living, but there is no reference to poverty specifically.

Senior Policy Officer:

So we used the term "decent standard of living" because that was the term that is used to capture in surveys, so we try to be consistent with the existing terminology. The overall aim in there is trying to look at those low-income families. The absence of the word "poverty" is not it is more to do with there was a plan trying to keep to the terminology that is used in survey work so that we have got a consistency.

The Minister for Children and Families: It is certainly intended to cover that aspect.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Yes, okay. Does C.Y.P.E.S. collect any data to measure poverty?

Chief Officer, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

We had some compelling qualitative data that we have collected through our engagement and participation directorate whereby we have targeted schools and through our engagement with children particularly where there has been a specific area of asking children about their concerns. That has often led into responses relating to cost of living, heating, electric, food, and some of that information has been quite compelling and we have collected that. That is I think available in the report that is being developed by the associate director that we could share with the panel. It is qualitative but it does cover a lot of children that have been engaged with throughout the school network.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

That would be interesting to see that. There must be quantitative data from Statistics Jersey I think but is any of that considered by the department and work done around that?

Chief Officer, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

It is certainly shared with the department. Where we will consider the position around what Statistics Jersey is telling us is where we are having to make decisions around fees around chargeable services, around services that we can shape to support where there is need and how we target our services towards that need. School meals is an example, our work with Brighter Futures, and what we have been looking to work with closer commissioning with that service in particular, so we take that into consideration in terms of the information we receive about the pressures that families are facing. It will certainly be a consideration for all of the front line practitioners in their interface with families.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay, thank you. I think this will probably be the last question. In the plan there is mention of a data development agenda, so this would be more than what Statistics Jersey provides, I expect, so can you give us any information about that?

Senior Policy Officer:

Yes, I can. So the Children and Young People's Survey, for example, there is a process that goes on behind that in terms of what questions are asked. We want to be able to align that survey as much as possible behind or towards the Children, Young People and Families' Plan. We know from the work that we did in pulling the plan together we have got gaps in some of our data where we would like to know more. What we are looking to do is, where there is, as you said, a data development agenda, we need to ask a slightly different question. We will be talking to and engaging with Statistics Jersey about how we can maybe shape or add additional questions or shape existing ones or remove old ones, so that over time we will build up that bank of questions and, more importantly, the insights that come from that. There will be an alignment between what we are asking children and young people with their own plan in relation to their outcomes, so that is broadly what we are meaning by data development.

Chief Officer, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

Can I add just for assurance for the panel, there is a very formal mechanism whereby low-income families or children are identified, particularly through the education arm, directly through C.L.S. (Customer and Local Services) in terms of Jersey Premium and that is obviously a trigger point for our department, so that is quantitative data relating specifically to each child or family. That then shapes how our service responds, is required, not just in education, so it crosses both arms of the Ministers' portfolios.

[11:00]

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Do you have any concerns about the families who are in relative poverty after housing costs, whether they are being captured in any way for their needs because they may not be people who get income support, for example?

Chief Officer, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

Yes, we do. We recognise there is more work we need to do as not all of the families that may be in need will be recognised as having Jersey Premium. We have certainly identified that within the education space and we are working with school leaders to identify how we can make sure we capture that and then that also connects through to Children's Services. There is a mechanism whereby we think that well we know that is happening within the schools but that needs to be captured in a formal way through C.L.S. We are working with the department on that.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay, that is interesting. I think we have asked all our questions and it is exactly 11.00 a.m. so that is good timing, is it not? All right. Well, thank you very much, everyone.

The Minister for Children and Families: Thank you very much.

[11:01]