Overseas Aid - Mr M Wavell and Mr A Lewis, Jersey Side by Side - Transcript - 6 February 2007

CORPORATE SERVICES SCRUTINY SUB-PANEL

Overseas Aid Review

TUESDAY, 6th FEBRUARY 2007

Panel:

Senator J.L. Perchard (Chairman) Connétable J.L.S. Gallichan of Trinity Connétable D.J. Murphy of Grouville Connétable S.A. Yates of St. Martin

Witnesses:

Mr. M. Wavell and Mr. A. Lewis (Jersey Side by Side)

Also Present:

Mrs A. Thomson (Adviser - Oxford Policy Management) Miss S. Power (Scrutiny Officer)

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Welcome Mike and Anthony who are here representing Jersey Side by Side. Firstly, I will introduce everybody. Constable Gallichan, Sam Power from the Scrutiny Office, Constable Murphy, myself Jim Perchard, Mrs Anne Thomson from Oxford Policy Management who is helping the panel make some sense of all the submissions and all the work that we are doing, so we are looking forward to a continued positive contribution from Anne, and Constable Yates from St. Martin. Thank you for your submission and for coming to see us today. We will start developing our dialogue on that once I have just warned you about the piece of paper between you and it is something I am bound to do, but basically it is just a formality and you do not need to worry too much. Okay. Right, you have made a short submission. Very interesting, and you raise a few points that I know you want to talk about, Mike, having spoken to you on the phone. Perhaps it would be more sensible if I gave you the floor at this stage and you allowed us to interject with questions when we want to know a bit more clarity.

Mr. M. Wavell (Jersey Side by Side):

I think part of the submission to understand where Side by Side came from and how it has developed and what it is. It all happened with the tsunami when the Bailiff asked us to set an Asia relief fund. We found then, at that particular time, as soon as the tsunami hit -- I had interests in Sri Lanka, another chap had interests in Indonesia and somebody else in somewhere else. We suddenly felt that it was a region that was involved and to hone in on one country was not very sensible so we all pulled together. People with different affinities or different loyalties pulled themselves together, got together, and out of that came the Asia relief fund and the Asia relief fund raised over £2 million. What was significant about that, where we learnt from that, was there was an awful lot of people out there who were very hungry to become involved. Not hungry just to become involved by throwing money at things and forgetting about it but physically wanting to make a contribution. That carried on until some guy, sitting on my right here, had these brainwave idea which everybody thought was stupid of getting 5,000 people on the beach, spelling out the words Side by Side physically, getting a helicopter up there, photographing it and beaming it across the world. The significant thing about that was again it was a very, very cold January. It certainly was not a nice day out for anybody and there was a very, very genuine commitment from the people that were there. So he, having given birth to the baby, we then thought that it would be totally wrong not to make sure that it is not just a publicity stunt. That it becomes something. We see and hear about Live Aid and Live Aid goes out and they have their Live Aid, they raise some money and all they talk about is next year and it is forgotten in between. So, from the Asia relief fund we wound that up and the money that was wound up, we funded that money directly through the British Red Cross because we felt, at that time, Jersey had got an affinity with the Red Cross and the Leaguo(?) and all those relationships. The emergency thing, at that time, was to get funds in for water, for life-saving equipment. Then a group of us got together and we thought side by side we have got to make sure that there is a vehicle for the people that were down there to continue to want to contribute towards things and not necessarily the emergency side of it, but the ongoing. So, that is where Side by Side then was born. Side by Side boasts itself as being an Island-owned charity. It is not a church, and not degrading any of those people, it has not got any one bias or affiliated to anybody other than the public of Jersey. We still see and recognise there is a number of people out there that want to be part of contributing something on overseas aid. I mean it is easy for the States to have this fund of money and to send it off to people but my experience in the States is that there are people who do not like overseas aid. They say charity begins at home and I think this can be vindicated a lot by making contribution, adding up wholly what that contribution is and people being able to physically get involved in doing things. So they are involved in -- any fool can write out a cheque if it is not yours and send it off and it is forgotten but that does not have very much impact on making people realise what is happening in the other countries and parts of the world, school children. So, we strongly believe at Side by Side that there ought to be some way where the contributions that people want to make in raising funds for specific disasters or whatever is significant and it becomes much more significant if it is endorsed by funds perhaps from the States in backing. So, what I am saying is, instead of raising the States' budget, say, to £6 million then it would be right to raise it to that sort of level, but it would be much more sensible to try and raise it by involving people and matching what people can --

Senator J.L. Perchard:

This is what shot out at us from your submission. Congratulations, by the way, on the success of Side by Side. I did not know it was £2 million. It is a fantastic achievement. It shot out from your submission that you would now like Government to endorse by supporting the initiatives of Side by Side and others by matching or helping with a contribution.  You would like them to do that, is that right?

Mr. M. Wavell:

Yes, I mean we were very conscious of, first of all, the amount of money we raised and Anthony and I went out to Sri Lanka just after the tsunami. We had a look around to see -- because we felt we were morally obliged to come back and say to people: "Your money has not gone here there and everywhere. It is being used." That was a very, very educational thing to do. I mean you would go into the villages and all and there would be some that would be quite against the NGOs. You would get others that would be quite against the church organisations, particularly the American Evangelical Church who were saying: "Here is some money. Let us meet on the lawn and we will talk and they will tell me all about Jesus." Now, that was very, very offensive to the people. So, then we quickly learnt that the way forward was to try and work on the community-to-community basis at that level where you were not dealing through governments and you were building up relationships. Hence, we built one up in --

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Can you tell us about the relationship you want to build with the JOAC and particularly with regards to the Jersey aid budget?  How do you want to develop this relationship?

Mr. A. Lewis (Jersey Side by Side):

I think it is expressed obviously in the submission that we made but we feel that we can take some of the overseas aid budget and make it go further, if you like. If we have a proposal that is going to cost £50,000, we will raise £50,000 through all of that goodwill that Mike has spoken about already that we know exists. But we can double that if we take some of the overseas aid budget and what that enables us to do, with the overseas aid budget, is very clearly identify projects which the Island will have a continuing relationship with. If we take Pakistan as a current example, we have a project to build a girls' school in Pakistan. I think the overall project is £160,000, which we have committed to raising at least £80,000 for. We may do that in absolute partnership with the Red Cross or look to other partners to do that. If we were to approach the Overseas Aid Commission and say: "Look, why do you not come aboard and do this as a joint partnership?" that becomes a project which is wholly owned, if you like, by Jersey, both through taxpayers' money and through other voluntary contributions. Because of the relationships we have developed with the British Red Cross, and which Overseas Aid have in the past, we can ensure there is continual monitoring and continual reporting back. Our feeling is that, as Mike says, cheques are written out to various NGOs and meetings that they have in London and so on and, other than the initial report in the press about the cheque being paid out, what happens after that? There is not any ongoing monitoring that we are aware of, whereas through the relationship with us and the relationship that we have with communities on the ground we can report back to Jersey, to the taxpayer who has given, let us say, the overseas aid £80,000, and to the other people who have given, voluntarily, through coming to sales, or whatever it might be, we can report back and say: "Right, this is exactly how your money is being used."

Senator J.L. Perchard:

You think it is appropriate that the recipients would be the reporter. In general terms, is it appropriate when there is taxpayers' money involved?

Mr. A. Lewis :

Well, I mean we are --

Senator J Perchard:

With the recipient Side by Side, the taxpayers' cheque would be funded by Side by Side into Pakistan.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Are you talking independent monitoring?

Mr. A. Lewis :

We have John Le Maison(?) on Side by Side. He has extraordinary contacts around the world, as you are probably aware, through the various things he has been on. So, for example, the rehabilitation centre we have built in Sri Lanka; that has been independently monitored for us by people through the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Do you think that is critical?

Mr. A. Lewis :

I think there does need to be an independent analysis of it but the thing about Side by Side is that none of us are paid executives. We are not doing this, in any way, to feather our own nest or for our own glory. Mike has not got his OBE yet as far as I am aware. It is very much to deliver the promise that was made on the beach that day which is ongoing support for disaster regions around the world.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

That is with Side by Side but there are other very good Jersey-based charitable institutions. We have met a couple of the drivers behind those today. So, in the bigger picture, there will need to be surely a mechanism for measuring the value of that term.

Mr. A. Lewis :

A minimal inspection regime or whatever --

Senator J Perchard:

With that comes cost, does it not?

Mr. A. Lewis :

Yes. But I think you are talking about, in the one case, taxpayers' money and, in the other, money that has been given through voluntary donations. I think it is important that people see how their money is being used. Whether that incurs a cost, well possibly it does. Possibly it does not, if you use the right prompt, the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, in those areas that they exist and there are plenty of volunteers around who might be prepared to do it as we found with the Sri Lankan project.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

The submission says terms of reference part B, namely the Jersey Overseas Aid Commission's policies and procedures for the distribution of its grant aid budget. You wish to influence the policies and procedures. Can I ask perhaps the Chairman, I have got something in the back of my mind, is there, at the present moment, a cap on pound for pound if somebody comes along and says: "I have got £10,000." The Overseas Aid Commission might say: "Sorry you only get a cap on £5,000."

Senator J Perchard:

£3,500. You cannot, with all respect, do a lot with £3,500.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

So, basically your submission is to --

Mr. M. Wavell:

I think people are talking about the overseas aid budget should go up. The States' contribution should go up. The mechanism of just putting it up means a little bit of anger to a few people that say count it as a home, as I said earlier. By linking that increase even to partnerships with the schools that suddenly want to say: "I want to buy a couple of classrooms in a school but we could not possibly afford to. We might be able to buy a half one." But they might be able to buy one and even more if the States come in and it is all a matter of making people aware of what is -- as important as the money is concerned --

Senator J.L. Perchard: Taking ownership.

Mr. M. Wavell:

It is also important of educating the kids, educating the schools. The school children have been the most amazing fundraisers that you could possibly meet with the ideas and they have come up -- and they are very, very conscious for the first time that living in Jersey does not alienate them from learning about the rest of the world. Anthony's partner brought over 5 volleyball players from Sri Lanka. Side by Side, we are saying, is not really even just about giving money to one country. It is saying: "What can we get back from you? Let us get something back from you." We have got the cricketers coming over from Sri Lanka and that way there was a relationship. So, we are not just about raising money for disasters. We are really raising awareness and raising education and that is not happening with a States system. The States system of overseas aid is dishing out money. Some people approve, some do not.

Senator J.L. Perchard: Yes.  Right.

The Connétable of St. Martin : I have not finished yet.

Senator J.L. Perchard: Thanks, Silva.  Carry on, mate.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

So, we have established that you wish to change the procedures in as much as that £3,500 you want a cap at some higher level. How are you going to go about doing that? Are you going to ask us to recommend this at the end of this panel sitting?

Mr. M. Wavell: Yes.

Mr. A. Lewis : Yes.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

But you have been a States Member much longer than I have, so how would you do it?

Mr. M. Wavell:

It is very difficult because I know we are talking in a public meeting and I know that it will get reported back but I do believe there is almost a feeling of ownership for anything for overseas aid within the States. The relationship, I do not believe, with the independent individual organisations in the Island is what it should be. I think there is still this almost, should I say ...

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Say it.

Mr. M. Wavell: A jealousy.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

We are going to need meat on the bone.

Mr. M. Wavell:

Now, let us say, for instance, we brought over Sir Nicholas Young, the head of the Red Cross. It was very unusual to get him to come to Jersey but he was so impressive with the £2 million or whatever that we raised, he came and he spoke to the schools and it was great. We asked all the States Members, we asked everybody, to a function at Port Regent and it was a concert with a few kids' choirs were there and he was going to address them. Now, the Overseas Aid Committee did not come and the reason we were told was they had not been invited as prima donnas, individuals or whatever, which is wrong. I think you really do have to have teamwork and not Overseas Aid the only people who are able to do anything because the public want to be involved. Yes, they want their money, or some of them want their money, to go to these areas and do things but also they also physically want to become involved and there is not a lot of opportunity for that other than the camps that go away every year. There is no vehicle in which people can raise money.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

I am all with you but I can see if they say: "Oh, that is great. We will raise it to £10,000 or £20,000 or £50,000" then that would mean that anybody else would ask for the same.

Mr. M. Wavell:

I think everything could be done on its merits and why should it not a £100,000 project --

The Connétable of St. Martin :

We are not sure exactly what the procedure and policies are in the --

Mr. A. Lewis :

I think, in a nutshell, what we are saying is by working together you can double the influence and the impact that you have and let us not forget the whole of the States system at the moment is trying to get rid of any silo mentality. This is potentially another little silo, that overseas aid is very much the remit of the Overseas Aid Commission as it is now or the committee as it was. I think what we are saying is that the ethos of Side by Side is that everybody works together and, by working together, you achieve a hell of a lot more. If the budget is whatever it is, £5 million, well if we can stretch that and make it go further by involving Islanders in supplementing - and I guess that is what we are talking about supplementation here - then what is the problem with that? There needs to be criteria, there needs to be monitoring and we would absolutely support that because it is very easy to go wrong once and have an impact on everybody's work. All you need is one project to go bad and it taints everybody so the monitoring needs to be there.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Thank you for that and personally I would think that would be something that I could recommend.

The Connétable of Trinity :

The other thing, which is a great thing, is if you know the people raising the money, there is a great deal of sort of a target. If you know us, then there is no difference related to the dedication of the pound for pound. Now, if anybody was going to put a youth centre or something, the people who wanted to get that off the ground knew that if it was going to be £600,000, they had to raise £300,000 to get that pound for pound. Now, this is a way to me of stimulating people to raise money privately. Say, as you say, schools £100,000. You will say: "Look, we have got to raise £50,000 on this because we may get a pound for pound from overseas aid" which, I think, is the right way to go because all you are asking for is £50,000 and private donations of £50,000. So, what more could they wish for? To me it is a win-win situation.

Mr. M. Wavell:

We have had functions where we know the function that we have had we have not gone out to make money. We have gone out to make this awareness and again the Overseas Aid Commission and the overseas aid thing do not have any mechanism of making people aware. I think awareness is as important as fundraising as I said earlier in people being educated into the third world problems but the Overseas Aid Commission is a body that signs cheques, hands it over but there is no feedback, there is no -- people do not -- they have no opportunity of putting an input into where it should go and I think that is very important.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Can I ask you, do you have any boundaries on where you are going with this, I mean, geographical?

Mr. A. Lewis :

No.  The terms of reference are basically to help people affected by disaster.

The Connétable of Grouville :

So, you say you are disaster relief rather than long term relief?

Mr. A. Lewis :

No, we are more long term relief. For example, if you take the earthquake in Pakistan, we gave £50,000 to the British Red Cross for emergency hygiene packs. That was desperately needed to help people get through the winter but, having sent that money off, we then sat down and said: "Right, what we also need to do is a long-term project in that region" because when all the cameras have gone, there is still a hell of a lot of work to do and I suppose that is where we start to see our role. When the world's attention has moved on, to then to try to rebuild communities and everything we have done so far has been about stimulating economy and training people in those areas. So, the 2 Sri Lankan projects primarily have been about training and rehabilitation.

The Connétable of Grouville :

That is what I was going to ask about really was the economic aid which is the ongoing problem of rebuilding lives and earning power.

Mr. A. Lewis :

Well, rebuilding livelihoods is probably, and long term training. That is why education is obviously very important. We, and I suppose I personally, would part company with Overseas Aid in some respect in terms of going out and building things for people. My view, which is shared by the committee, is that we should be paying local people to build local buildings because that is how you stimulate the economy. A group of very well intentioned Jersey people going to build something in Africa does not really stimulate the economy.

The Connétable of Grouville :

I wish you would give me £1 for every time I have said that today.

Mr. A. Lewis :

That is very much our view that you can go in and be, without being too un-PC about it, white man saves you know.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Yes, I can see your point. You are saying send out a couple of specialist artisan type people to instruct them how to do it rather than send out a team of labourers.

Mr. A. Lewis :

We would probably find that the artisans are there on the ground. The skilled tradesmen are already in those areas and what they have not got is the wherewithal to buy the goods themselves. What we are saying is that you stimulate the economy and you improve training in the area by letting the people do it themselves under the auspices of, on this occasion in Pakistan, the British Red Cross. So, they are

building something that is going to be earthquake proof for a start --

Mr. M. Wavell:

We would rather not be sharing 50 percent with the Red Cross. We would rather be sharing 50 percent with the States of Jersey, so it became a Jersey project. So, there would be the ongoing thing where we have got 12 students from one of the schools going up to Sri Lanka in a few months time for a geography lesson where they are also going to be getting involved in a community. That is because we have built a school out there; that is because we have a relationship out there and it is a Jersey relationship with them.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Have you approached Overseas Aid on this, £50,000 a year?

Mr. M. Wavell:

Yes, and they have a £3,500 limit, because it has always been delegated and the Red Cross have had all the money they are going to have.

Mr. A. Lewis :

I think Mike has had a private conversation.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Did you get an indication of how it would be received?

Mr. M. Wavell:

They say their hands are tied.  I do not know.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Who makes or drafts the guidelines in which the commission operate?

Mr. M. Wavell:

I do not know, but we specifically wanted to do this £160,000 project, if possible, as a Jersey project, not because Jersey wants a flag to say that this is Jersey and we have given something -- you have given a price tag on it or present. We do not want that but what we do want is the ownership of parts around the world where people can relate to. Side by Side does 2 things. I think it is now established that if there was a major disaster tomorrow, the major fundraiser in the Island would be Side by Side for the emergency relief fundraising. That seems to be established now and we see ourselves firmly in that role as an organisation that is not committed to anybody but a local charity owned by the Island. That would be our major thrust into raising money for disaster. Then it would go on to the next phase, like we did in

Pakistan into rehabilitation, rebuilding, re-educating.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

You have been working with British Red Cross in the past in Sri Lanka and in Pakistan?

Mr. M. Wavell: Yes.

Mr. A. Lewis : Yes.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

You just mentioned that if you had a partnership with Jersey Overseas Aid Commission that it would be a partnership but you would not have to be involved with the British Red Cross.  Is that what you said?

Mr. A. Lewis :

Financially, that is the case but what we would still do is because British Red Cross obviously have the contacts and the people on the ground -- for example, the school we are going to build in Pakistan is being built under the auspices of the British Red Cross. If we can fund all of it, they will see oversee it so we are certainly not trying to cut British Red Cross out because they are hugely important and they have the resources, but we would fund it.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Are you happy with the sort of on the ground administration of British Red Cross? I do not know much about it, but I believe it is the best.

Mr. M. Wavell:

In Sri Lanka, we do not have that. We are building a vocational training centre in Sri Lanka where we are dealing directly with the community, with the village, with the Buddhist monks who have given us the land but that is being overseen in a different way and that is pulling in the contacts that the Island must have and does have where I do not think it has been very well used by the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association (CPA). I think when you are looking at Commonwealth countries where there has been these incidents that have happened, I think the CPA could have been much more proactive, much more saying we will oversee, we will -- the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association is not the seedy, corrupt government that there are in these countries. The CPA is very much more anti - - it is not government, it is the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. I do not think it has been -- well we spoke to them we had --

The Connétable of St. Martin :

I went to Nigeria last year with them.

Mr. M. Wavell:

We had breakfast with the Prime Minister of Sri Lanka and he was saying: "Do not put any money through my government. Please, do not." This was the Prime Minister of Sri Lanka saying that the way you are doing it, sort of community to community, is the way forward.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

You have gone down the line to local government level or personal in touch level.

Mr. A. Lewis :

Of course it is important to remember that we have no admin costs either, other than sending a few letters out but that is absorbed anyway. Every penny basically that is raised by Side by Side goes to the project, so we are lean in that respect.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Why are the commission not more flexible? You are the second Jersey group that have come with very exciting proposals, not only proposals, very exciting track record, very creditable track record and exciting proposals for the future. What is the resistance in the commission? Why are they not more flexible? Ultimately, they make their decisions as to what criteria they work to. What is it? Is it that you are doing so well without them?

Mr. M. Wavell:

I think it could be that, but I think perhaps they do not want to take -- there are risks involved. Even with what we are doing, there are risks involved. Perhaps they just want to be -- and because it is a government thing, they have to be 150 per cent sure and not take any risks. That is why they are working the way they are through the other NGOS and all this sort of thing, because I think in anything you are doing overseas, there is a risk element and you have to take that risk. You have to minimise it but the way they have got it set up, I think nothing possibly could go wrong the way it is funded through the different organisations. I just do not think it portrays the feelings of people. They cannot contribute and their contribution is made for them and not by them and I think the overseas aid budget is exactly that.

Mr. A. Lewis :

I guess that is the way it has always been done. The overseas aid budget was set up and this was how it was divvyed up and now we have got a commission and now it is time to look how it is done. All, I guess, they have done previously is followed the guidelines that have been there previously. What we

are suggesting is it is probably time --

The Connétable of Trinity : Time to review.

Mr. A. Lewis :

I mean, you are doing that and that is fantastic that this process is going on and you are listening to us is part of that process so hopefully you obviously will get the result that we want.

The Connétable of Trinity : Who will review it though?

Mr. A. Lewis : Who will review ...?

The Connétable of Trinity :

The policy. I mean this is where we had discussion today. Who reviews what? Surely you would have to set up a panel to review maybe what we have come out with and look at the both sides. If an independent group of people say: "Well look obviously the overseas aid people are doing fine, are they not? Overseas Aid Commission are happy." We can recommend things but at the end of the day, they might still say that we are happy with this but at the end of the day somebody has got to --

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Well, that is crystal ball gazing, John --

The Connétable of Trinity : Well, it is.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

We certainly have the opportunity here to highlight any deficiencies in their policy and offer to hold that policy to account and we will be doing that tomorrow.

Mr. A. Lewis :

Each of you as private members could take a private member's proposition to do whatever you wish.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

That is right. You make 2 very powerful points as to why supporting government linking with people like Jersey Side By Side would be of benefit to the recipient and the donor. Firstly you said you get better value for the taxpayer, particularly involvement for people. The people of Jersey would take some ownership and involvement in the project. I mean, that has got to be good. I would like to explore other positive reasons for devolving Jersey's aid packages into these joint ventures. If we could find some more positive reasons to put in evidence, if we felt that were so inclined, I think it is important that we explore that. We may not get them all now but I would ask you perhaps to consider it over the next week or so. Positive reasons for joint venture relationships.

Mr. A. Lewis :

The Commission are not there to come up with ideas of how to spend the money, as far as I am aware, but they are there for us to come up and say: "Could we have some money please, Sir?"

Senator J.L. Perchard: Yes.

Mr. A. Lewis :

So, there is a hell of a lot of talent in Jersey. There is a hell of a lot of people doing a lot of work for charity. They are spending time thinking about how to spend the money and so the ideas are not coming from above down. They are coming from below. So, we should be encouraging more and more people through joint ventures and if they know that they are going to be pump primed, as it were -- they may only need £5,000, £10,000 at a time but if they know that at least half of their fundraising could already be in the bank, then more fresh interesting ideas are going to come forward.

Mr. M. Wavell:

I think that endorsement gives credibility as well. You know, we found that people who wanted to raise money for various projects, and there are other people collecting and doing things in Sri Lanka and all, they have found, by coming under the umbrella in doing things with Side by Side, that it has given credibility to it, as Side by Side gets credibility in doing things alongside the government, the overseas government. So, it is a question of working together, credibility, recognising the strengths of one and the weaknesses of one and the strengths and weaknesses in like as I say, a major disaster. What is going to be better? How is it going to be easier to raise the money in for that? The Government or the Bailiff makes an appeal or an organisation like Side by Side makes an appeal which people identify to. There is an anti-government feeling in all parts of the world. With the Government involved, it is not as attractive. I do not believe in giving to an organisation but I am not contradicting myself when I am saying the endorsement between the 2 is important.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Do  you  think  by  Jersey  maintaining  some  ownership  of  projects  would  enhance  our  international personality?

Mr. A. Lewis :

It could not do anything but. You go into this little village in Sri Lanka and see that there is not a Jersey flag flying. This is not colonialism by any other means but it can only enhance the relationships that we have with high-powered people and people on the community level in Sri Lanka, and hopefully we will replicate that in Pakistan. Of course, we are also getting schools involved in talking to other schools. Now, Beaulieu are sponsoring kids in a village in Sri Lanka.

Mr. M. Wavell: There are 38 children.

Mr. A. Lewis :

So, it is not just about what is happening now but it is those relationships and the things that those Beaulieu kids are learning about Sri Lankan culture can only be good for the Island's future, I think.

Mr. M. Wavell:

I think if you look up www.unconditional compassion which is the foundation of goodness in Sri Lanka which is what we are funding, and you will see Jersey, how significantly it is portrayed on that website. It talks about how much money the Islanders have raised; it talks about community. We have raised more money than any other community as a whole. It talks about the ongoing relationships. It talks about their world famous cricketer coming here. It talks about the volleyball players coming here. It talks about our children going there and it is a very good example, www.unconditional compassion. You need to look at it.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Yes, okay. We will go on to that in a minute. So, think about some positives, if you want to add them in. For example, we have just come up with that, enhancing the Island's international personality. I think the case needs to be built so that it is persuasive.

Mr. M. Wavell:

Side by Side, as a charity, received the Island's ambassador of the year award last year. Now, for a charity that does overseas aid to get the ambassador of the year award when there is lots of other people that are being ambassadors going around --

Mr. A. Lewis :

The citation "the people of Jersey: because very much Side by Side is -- it is you, it is me, it is Mike, it is whoever, has been involved in any of the fundraising or down on the beach that day.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Tell me about the choice of projects that somebody like Side by Side would take. Obviously there will be times of: "Shall we go left or shall we go right?" How do you make those choices?

Mr. A. Lewis :

Partner is probably the key one. With Pakistan, we looked a few different projects that came to us because if you put yourself out there, suddenly you receive, like overseas aid do, I guess, information about various projects that need funding. In Pakistan, we had a couple of projects. One, and the name escapes me, but it was an NGO we had never heard of, an American-based NGO, which, if you have looked at the paperwork and looked at their track record, was absolutely fantastic but we found it difficult getting any references, if you like, from anybody that John Le Maison, for example, spoke to. We were more comfortable going with the British Red Cross because of the long-term commitment to the area. I think it is all very well building buildings, but in 2 years they are shells with nothing happening in them and it is a complete waste of time and money. So, we know the British Red Cross, particularly on the Pakistan project, are committed to the region. It is a hell of a long-term rebuilding programme anyway. So, I think the knowledge that it will continue to function and will be monitored and will be built properly is our major criteria.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

That brings me on to the outcome. You have built the school. The girls school in Pakistan sounds like a fantastic initiative and I wish you luck with that, but 3 years time, 5 years time, monitoring that and seeing if it does need a top up, how would one propose to do that? Do you see British Red Cross doing that for you? How do you follow this up?

Mr. A. Lewis :

Well, again, the Red Cross obviously, with that one, are there for the long term and the Sri Lankan training centre in Matara, we have used the CPA to go along. We are now 18 months into the project. We were not getting information in the way that we could easily assimilate it because their standards of doing things are different. So we felt okay we need to do a bit of a check up here, see where it is going and are people being educated in the way that we thought they were going to be. So, I think Mike arranged for a guy from the CPA, who knew Sri Lanka like the back of his hand, to go and have a look.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Do you expect that if there was a pound for pound or a percentage relationship with Government on aid that the commission, in this case, would want to be the monitoring body?

Mr. A. Lewis :

I think you would have to agree, as you go into the project, how it is going to be monitored. I do not

think we would sign over all responsibility and I expect Overseas Aid Commission might not want to take all the responsibility.

Senator J.L. Perchard: No.

Mr. A. Lewis :

It is partnership. You agree at the outset who is going to pay for what, how the payments are going to be put through --

Senator J.L. Perchard:

I am concerned about the afterward.  You have got a school: 5 years down the road, does it need a top up financially, once you are on to your tenth, twentieth, thirtieth project and those early ones have perhaps come a little bit of history?

Mr. M. Wavell:

The projects we have done, the 30 children that have been sponsored by Beaulieu School, we know is something that will come to an end as the children leave school. So, that is not ongoing. The school that we have built, we have undertaken that we will fund it for 3 years but there is conditions attached to that in relation to who goes to the school. You know, it is a wide circle of people. People from out of the tents that go there. You have to get projects from over there back to here and keep that. We do not envisage carrying on refunding that endlessly other than --

Mr. A. Lewis :

Yes, the deal we did at the start is that it would become self funding because it is a training college and the things that they are learning can make money. So, that was always the intention that it become self funding. Now, as I say, we are 18 months into that and it seems to be progressing well.

Mr. M. Wavell:

Having said that, you marry a school up with a school like we have at Beaulieu and the school has got a twin so that may well be the chance of an ongoing relationship between the 2 schools.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

I think, this is probably detail.  It is the principle of linking with Government that (overspeaking)

Mr. A. Lewis :

I mean, the issue of outcomes is hugely important, more so perhaps if you are using taxpayers' money.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

What percentage of the overseas aid budget do you think one could be looking at, if things were successful? Have you got designs on any, not particularly Side by Side, but Jersey initiatives? Have you any ideas of maximums that you had in mind?

Mr. M. Wavell:

No. It would not be a question of just: "Here is the pot of money, go and spend it" like Overseas Aid has got a pot of money and they have got to spend it within a year. We would not be like that. We would be very much linked to becoming involved in the first response and then the projects as it goes along, and I think every other organisation will do the same.

Mr. A. Lewis :

I think what is worth trying to establish is the principle of public private initiatives, I suppose.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Sounds good to me, I have got to say.

The Connétable of Trinity : I am cool.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

You are cool.  [Laughter].  Probably tired as well.  John, anything you want to add?

The Connétable of Trinity :

No.  I am very supportive of this idea.  I think it is a good idea.

The Connétable of Grouville :

I think we have to look into this question of that limit of £3,500. It has got to be opened up.

The Connétable of Trinity :

Well they have not got a pound-for-pound system anyway, have they?

The Connétable of Grouville : I know.  It is £3,500.

The Connétable of Trinity : I know.  That is what I mean.

Mr. A. Lewis :

That is a £3,500 grant.

Mr. M. Wavell:

I want to see closer, much more easier as well to be able to exchange people and that is something that I do not think is addressed as much as it should be. We have got, for instance, an Indonesian person who has now applied to us to want to come to Jersey to learn more in the field of nursing or caring or whatever and I think if you can instigate some exchanges but you do hit problems with bringing them in. We have had it with the volleyball players. They had to get the Government to intervene in bringing them.

The Connétable of Grouville :

That is all very well you know, but I remember a case quite recently in the UK where a Russian rugby team wanted to come on tour and they cited the fact that the year before they had let in a volleyball team who came over and all disappeared.  [Laughter]

Mr. M. Wavell:

Sadly, that is what is happening with the doctors. They come and they train and they do not go back and the UK is so greedy it just grabs them in. We found when we were raising money for Sri Lanka it was quite easy because people had been there on holiday and knew the beautiful beaches. Pakistan is a little bit more difficult. But you take all the Pakistan doctors and nurses away from the UK and the health service would collapse. So, there are ways of signing things.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Before we wrap up, I just want to change tack a little bit. Your submission states that you would support an increase in the Island's overseas aid budget. Have you got any views as to what level and how one would measure the overseas aid contribution?

Mr. M. Wavell:

I do not think just increasing it and carry on the same sweet old way is what -- I think it needs a little bit more of partnership involvement with other people and pump priming other people to become involved in raising funds.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Of course but you will understand the disciplines that Treasury will demand and impose on the commission that there will be budget limit maximum but you do quite clearly say that you would support an increase.

Mr. M. Wavell: Yes.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Currently Jersey is aspiring to 2.4 per cent of its tax income, falling short of that, at the moment.  As you well know, many more advanced countries are targeting 0.7 per cent of their gross national income. Have you got a view?  Should Jersey be making a statement?

Mr. A. Lewis :

I think the committee view is that Jersey can afford to do it but our view also is that we wish to be doing Government's job for it but by using partnerships you can perhaps get closer to the target and more quickly closer to the target than just sticking up the budget.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

You would feel it acceptable then to measure Jersey's contribution with the public private monies as Jersey contribution?

Mr. A. Lewis :

Personally, I would.  That is probably not the Side by Side official statement.

Mr. M. Wavell:

No, I could not say that.

Mr. A. Lewis :

What I am keen to avoid is somebody saying: "Oh well, we do not need to put the budget because --"

Mr. M. Wavell:

We have got Side by Side.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

"In my mirrored box that I am trying to fill here." Yes, it is a possible --

Mr. M. Wavell:

In spite of the States' contribution, as it is set at the moment, Jersey is recognised as probably being one of the leading communities in what it does for charitable events. Whether it is the Battle of Britain week, whether it is anything that is going, Jersey's contribution is much, much more than what the States are giving anyway, but the States should not be able to cash in and capitalise on that as being what --

Mr. A. Lewis :

As I said at the outset, this is the way of making the budget stretch further and more efficiently.

Senator J.L. Perchard: Yes, imminently sensible.

The Connétable of Grouville :

We had a figure thrown at us this morning that if we wanted to hit the target of 0.7 per cent we would mean putting 1.5 per cent on GST.  Do you go along with that?

Mr. A. Lewis :

Oh, well I think that is our front page tomorrow.  [Laughter]

Mr. M. Wavell:

I think you have got to be careful, if you are going to raise the budget quite significantly that you are going to carry people along with you because the last thing you want is to start now finding you get the moaning in the morning and the radio just full of people saying: "Why we should we give money to these people? Why should we give it?" That is what will happen if it is not done in a structured way.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Oh, yes, absolutely.  Perfectly reasonable attitude as well.

Mr. M. Wavell:

I think the public have to be taken along with it.

Senator J.L. Perchard: It is a process, is it not?

The Connétable of Grouville :

It is amazing really that you see now that all of a sudden, in the last few months, people are suddenly aware of climate change and they are doing things about it now which is incredible because I never thought it would. Oh, you say: "It does not matter. It is not going to happen in my generation" but, now they are working on it. This could happen, of course, to overseas aid.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Tell me, just before we wrap up,  there  has been some witnesses,  and 13  submissions, who  have suggested that the make-up of the Overseas Aid Commission needs looking at and there is not enough field expertise on the commission, you know, people from the field. Would you endorse that or have you a view on how the commission is made up?

Mr. M. Wavell:

I think you certainly need people on the commission that -- I remember the first person that we sponsored to go up and work overseas. She wrote back and she said: "Do not let anybody think they can talk to you and tell you what poverty is. You have got to go and smell it." I think you really need people on the commission that have been out and smelt what they dealing with. It is good to have retired bankers and people like that but I do think you need to have people with some experience.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Would you think the make-up of the commission could do with an upgrade or modernising, a revisit?

Mr. M. Wavell: Yes, I think it could.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

With the terms in the House constituted?

Mr. M. Wavell: Yes.

Mr. A. Lewis :

I do not really have an opinion on that one.  [Laughter]

Senator J.L. Perchard:

That is fine.  Yes is good enough.  Gentlemen, anything else?  Right.  Thank you, Michael and Anthony.

Mr. M. Wavell:

Thank you very much for having us.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Pleasure. This has been recorded. We will give you a copy which I am sure you will find very interesting. If there is anything you wanted to correct in the copy of the transcript before it is made public, you will have the opportunity to do just that.