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STATES OF JERSEY
Environment Scrutiny Panel Waste Plant Review
THURSDAY, 12th JUNE 2008
Panel:
Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour (Chairman) Connétable K.A. Le Brun of St. Mary Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier
Deputy P.V.F Le Claire of St. Helier
Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en of St. Saviour
Witnesses:
Mr. M. Le Feuvre (Director, Huelin Renouf Shipping)
Mrs. R. Lempriere (Client Liaison Manager, Huelin Renouf Shipping)
Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour (Chairman): Good morning. Rob Duhamel.
Mr. M. Le Feuvre (Director, Huelin Renouf Shipping):
I am Michael Le Feuvre, Director of Huelin Renouf Shipping, and Rosie Lempriere.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
The first thing we should say is did you wish this hearing to be taken in confidence?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
I do not mind, if there is anything that I feel I do not want to make public then I will say and we can speak about it after.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Has somebody got the convening notice that I have to read you?
Male Speaker:
Rosie, what do you do at the company.
Mrs. R. Lempriere (Client Liaison Manager, Huelin Renouf Shipping):
I am the Client Liaison Manager, so I work with Michael in sales looking after the U.K. (United Kingdom), Guernsey and Jersey sales department.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Can we settle down now, please. I have to read you the notice for witnesses who are not States Department. "It is important that you fully understand the conditions under which you appear at this hearing. The panel's proceedings are covered by parliamentary privilege through Article 34 of the States of Jersey Law 2005 and the States of Jersey (Powers, Privileges and Immunities) (Scrutiny Panels, P.A.C. and P.P.C.) Jersey Regulations 2006 and witnesses are protected from being sued or prosecuted for anything said during hearings unless they something they know to be untrue. This protection is given to witnesses to ensure that they can speak freely and openly to the panel when giving evidence without fear of legal action, although the immunity should obviously not be abused by making unsubstantiated statements about third parties who have no right of reply. The panel would like you to bear this in mind when answering questions. The proceedings are being recorded and transcriptions will be made available on the Scrutiny website." We have decided, Mr. Le Feuvre, that if there are any items that you feel should be taken confidentially then give us an indication and we will go into a confidential part of the hearing. Right, I would like to thank you for attending this hearing advance, and just make a few comments in order to set the scene. In or around June, maybe a little bit earlier, 2006 I approached your company in the capacity as Chairman of this particular panel suggesting that there was perhaps an opportunity of using the slack, or the spare capacity, in your shipping, bearing in mind that a large quantity of goods comes to the Island and we do not really kind of export very much. Consequently the shipping costs in terms of bringing goods to this Island are being all used up in some respects, both for the incoming goods and there was an opportunity, I thought, that perhaps those costs could be reduced or spread over goods that could be exported. A letter was sent by yourself to me on 5th July 2006 indicating that there was a possibility on that basis of shipping goods northbound of products for recycling, those products being glass, ferrous metal, tyres, aluminium cans, whitegoods and computers using conventional open-topped 24 containers capable of carrying a maximum of 18 tonnes payload from Jersey premises to Portsmouth Quay. The rates for onward delivery would be tendered once the destinations were advised, bearing in mind that a lot of materials can just be delivered to Portsmouth Quay and they have facilities for recycling on their doorstep so to speak. You gave an indication of costs and that was in the order of £480 per unit which came out to around about the £25-26 per tonne mark, which we thought was pretty good. There was a suggestion that there would be Jersey Harbour facility charges of a further £8 per tonne and the panel, on contacting the Harbour, was given an indication that perhaps there was a possibility in the future of those Harbour facility charges perhaps being waived in order to stimulate the market for recycling goods in the U.K. or elsewhere. A letter offering those same conditions was sent Mr. Rogers from Transport and Technical Services on 28th June 2006, I believe, and the department, we think, have been aware of the potential for a reduced shipping availability of materials, recyclable materials to the U.K. although it has not been publicly stated in those terms. Are you of the opinion that the opportunities that we spoke about in 2006 are still present in terms of being able to ship recyclable materials in large quantities using the spare capacity of your shipping to the U.K. or elsewhere?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Yes, they are but I think the words "spare capacity" are ones that we need to stay away from to a certain extent because when we are moving equipment back to the U.K., to our stevedores and handlers in the U.K., we actually charge per empty units which is a pittance but as soon as you put goods in those units we are then charged a tonnage rate. So the words "spare capacity" really comes out -- that is why I put those charges in there, because we will be picking up charges in the U.K., and obviously Jersey as well for loading charges and everything else.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Right, okay, thank you. We have got a number of questions about the generality of doing what we have outlined and I think perhaps what I would like to do is to invite other members and myself to go through the 11 different points in order hopefully, in order to address the issue in round terms. Could you indicate to the panel the vessel type and the capacity of those vessel that you are able to operate in terms of their capacity for taking recyclables back to the U.K. market?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
At present we operate a vessel which is called the MV Human Despatch. She is capable of carrying approximately 1,000 tonnes in cargo, southbound but obviously 33-40 per cent of that is Guernsey cargo so we are probably looking less than that here. We reckon that we would be able to offer a space northbound in the region of 125-150 tonne northbound cargo 3 times a week.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
You mention that perhaps there is the opportunity of other routes to France or elsewhere and there was talk at some stage --
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
That is something we are permanently investigating all the time. But, as you know I think, it has been investigated by many a company and we yet do not see a hole there.
Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en of St. Saviour :
Can I ask on that, would there be a problem from the perspective of any unions from going southbound to France on the cargo side? Is here an issue there?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Where do you mean, unions in Jersey or unions in France?
Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en: Probably Jersey.
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
I would not have thought so. I would say no because obviously it would be a new service so it would be added work over here, added loading, it would just be where were going from, that is all. But it is something that we as a company investigate all the time and we are yet to find the right sort of marketplace.
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier :
Can I ask what seems to be the problem in not identifying the criteria that you would require to do this and what is missing?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
What is missing is customers. It is a chicken and egg syndrome to a certain extent. You cannot start a service without any customers in France, and the Island is fairly well serviced out of St. Malo and a couple of small ports, basically there is not a great deal of room for anybody else. Anything that comes out of France or through Italy or out through Europe normally goes to U.K. distribution centres first. They are not going to stop off at a port in France with a fifth of their order to go to the Channel Islands. It is already sold to U.K. distribution centres who then channel it down to ourselves.
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:
Obviously the cost of fuel now might be changing this picture slightly, and I am wondering whether or not, because there are people that we have spoken to in the Bay of Granville that recycle and are willing to take our recyclables and come to Jersey and help us do that, there seems to be, from our evidence, the ability for us to take the product and deliver it to a French customer but obviously then there is issues about whether or not that vessel would have anything in it coming back again.
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Well, if you are looking at a dedicated service with a dedicated business in France then obviously that vessel probably could not bring anything else back. It all depends, is it loaded in bulk, is it loaded in containers, how it is loaded, what sort of cleanliness condition it is in. Because obviously if you are taking out a fair amount of waste it might be a mixture. You have to be very careful.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Rather than kind of breaking into areas left right and centre, could we perhaps stick to the question sheets that you have been given and then at the end perhaps move over to any areas that we have missed, otherwise we run the risk of straying.
As I say, our vessel departs the Island and we would be very able to offer between 125-150 tonnes per voyage, 3 times a week. To which we would be more than happy to bring in specialised equipment.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Has your company any experience of handling any elements of recyclable material at the moment?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
We work very closely with some businesses in Guernsey which I believe are a little bit ahead of Jersey when it comes to recycling. We move tyres, clothing, waste glass, steel biscuits, empty pallets, old batteries, and ferrous metals out of Guernsey.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Do you think there is any potential for Jersey to join forces, if you like, in terms of shipping, with Guernsey?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
I do not think we could join forces with them but I think perhaps an invitation to the businesses in Guernsey that already have the lines set up to look at what they could do in Jersey. Because for me to tell somebody else what to do is vey difficult.
Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier :
Chairman, could I come in there. It is quite important information that Guernsey are currently exporting recyclables of the sort you mention and Jersey is not. Is that case that --
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
I am not too sure what happens to the tyres over there -- not with us, no.
Mrs. R. Lempriere: We do clothing.
We do clothing out of Jersey. Tyres, I do not know if they are exported, glass I think is used in reclamation. Not too sure.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
In terms of the services you are offering Guernsey and potentially could offer Jersey, are there any particular constraints in terms of the handling of particular cargoes?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
There is no real constraints if the cargo is contaminable or of a dangerous substance we have to work within the guidelines set down for that substance and licences subject to where in the U.K. it is going have to be gained. We have some of these licences because we need to licence to transport the glass. The glass I think goes to Sussex but we have to have a special licence, or our road haulier does in the U.K. from Portsmouth up to its destination. As long as we are working within the guidelines of the laid down rules by the governments, we have no problem.
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:
Do you then help shift the material from your vessel to the end destination as hauliers in the U.K. then?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Yes, it is arranged from Guernsey to destination, be it Sussex, Kent, Yorkshire, anywhere.
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:
Are they your own vehicles and drivers you use?
Mrs. R. Lempriere: No, it is a third party.
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
It is a third party company that has been working with us closely for about 30 years.
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:
Are you able to tell us who that third party is or is it confidential?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
I have no problem with that. It is a company called W. Sibley & Son which are based in Portsmouth.
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:
Would they be able to ship anywhere as part of a --
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
U.K. road haulage. They do not have anything to do with the shipping. U.K. road haulage, they can go anywhere in the U.K.
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:
Through the tunnel into Europe if they wanted to?
Mrs. R. Lempriere:
He does not generally go to Europe.
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Not generally, no. They would just stick to the U.K.
Mrs. R. Lempriere:
But there are other hauliers that we work with who, if that was a proposal, we could speak to them and see if that was possible.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
In visiting one of the material recycling facilities in Wales and the U.K. it was stated that perhaps there are moves to move some of the materials and how they are transported in a different fashion. At the moment a lot of our paper is baled and then is loaded on to curtain sided vehicles or whatever. In the U.K. what is appearing to happen of late is that there is a preference either the paper companies are having the
materials loose in larger containers and not going through the baling process. Would that pose any particular problem should the same thing apply to Jersey?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
I do not see a problem at all, as long as the equipment is capable -- what you have to think of it is transferred -- paper, for example, that comes out of reclaim cardboard is transferred on the quay in Jersey into another vehicle because of the road width and road restrictions over here. Transferring it in the U.K. adds costs again and you are bringing more handling, you are bringing in more cost. But there was -- I think it was about 5 years ago we used to move cardboard on what we called loading platforms, covered with a tarpaulin, but there was an accident somewhere and the U.K. Health and Safety said that everything had to be moved in curtain sided trailers so they had protection from one side. I think they are now looking at what they call open top trailers so they just drop in from the top and tipping trailers. But we have no problem, as I said, equipment can be purchased to do the work.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
In 2005 the States decided that one of the ways forward for the Waste Management Strategy was to commit to the provision of a material recycling facility, a recycling unit, which was going to be located down at the port facilities or close to La Collette. In your view, do you think that that facility would have made it easier to recycle materials and cut out any potential double handling costs?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Yes, I would do because any vehicle coming out of La Collette on the reclamation, size wise, up to 13.5 metres is not a problem because it can use the road. As I said, we have always used containers, open top containers because that is our marketplace.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Are you surprised that the States, having committed to the delivery of this material recycling facility by December 2006, that it has not happened as yet?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre: Probably, yes. I will say yes. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: Okay, thanks.
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:
Can we got to the costs then because obviously fuel being as it is, and may not be there tomorrow as they say, it is going up and up, so you have told us basically that there is 450 tonnes capacity per week, but what is the situation with regard to cost --
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
It is very difficult to put a cost across the board. One can put a cost on products because, for example, we either work per tonne or per cubic metre. We are trying to fill obviously as much product -- let us say tyres for example, recyclable tyres. We try to put as many tyres as we can in specialised equipment. You only can carry X amount on the road haulage. So perhaps the tyres do not warrant a price that something will do. We have to -- and if the only way forward is to price per item, if you are saying glass, and we can put a price per glass because of the weight, if you are putting something which is lighter and it takes up bigger volumes then we might have to look at a different price. It is very, very difficult to give you a price across the board.
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: Because you told us that in 2006 --
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
We gave you a price for a container holding 18 tonne.
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:
Can you give us what that would be today so we can have some sort of understanding as to what --
Mrs. R. Lempriere:
Around about the £500 mark, it is £498.50.
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
We add a couple of per cent for each year, that is all we do.
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:
So it is £498.50 at the moment. But obviously the independent price would have to be costed as and when. Are you able to tell us what they are or would you be able to tell us in --
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
It is very difficult. When we talk to people and they say: "We would like to move X amount of tonnes" then we can say: "Fine, where is it going to?" U.K. road haulage I would not even like to hazard a guess on what the price would be. I have to go to our haulier because if he says: "Once a month" okay, fine. But if I say 10 times a month then obviously the price will come down because he will be there looking for some kind of other southbound freight. It is very, very difficult. If you had examples somewhere in the middle of U.K., say glass or tyres or tins of biscuits, then we can put the correct numbers on it. At the present moment I would not like to because I could give you the wrong numbers and I would hate to be held ...
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:
Could I ask you 2 more questions? What has the cost of harbour charges risen to from 2006, because they were £8.20, and we should know this?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
I believe they have gone up as per the States agreement of 2.5 per cent per year.
Mrs. R. Lempriere: We charge £8.65.
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
£8.65, that is a harbour facility charge.
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:
The last question is has the Transport and Technical Services Department or its officers asked you about the costs in relation to shipping in the last year or so?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Yes, we talk to them quite regularly because they import and export a fair amount. We discuss with all their departments, we meet up with them once every 6 or 8 months. So, yes, we do communicate.
Connétable K.A. Le Brun of St. Mary :
Can I ask, is it all totally based on tonnage or is in volume as well?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre: It is both. It is both.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
Yes, but there is a vast difference between both because, for instance, the tyres they could be all shredded and come in a big volume so therefore there would be a fair more weight in shredded tyres than there would be in volume of tyres.
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Yes, but just to give you an idea of how they export tyres, they compress them down. They have a machine in Guernsey like a long pole, they might put 20 tyres on but they will come out to a size like that. So they will probably get in the region of 10-12 tonne of tyres in an open top container, which is quite a large amount.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
But on the other hand we know that there is machinery that shreds them all and therefore if you filled up that same container, there would be far more weight in --
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
There would be more weight. You could probably be able to get around the 18-20 tonne mark. But what we have to look at, we have got laws in Jersey which I believe our leading weight is 18-19 tonnes.
Mrs. R. Lempriere: Eighteen tonne.
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Eighteen tonne. So we have to try and work to those laws.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
I was just trying to get the difference between the 2 because I know there has been many time in the past where people have thought of doing -- filling containers, getting them over but they go on volume and no weight is at risk. That is where the difference arose.
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:
Have we had from you the price for tyres from Guernsey? Are you able to give us --
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
It is a private business, I really cannot forward their information.
The Connétable of St. Helier :
I think the tyres are very interesting because they are currently, I think, burning in the incinerator here whereas Guernsey are recycling them. That is a very interesting point of detail. But your guide price is based around the price that you have given Deputy Le Claire?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Yes, some prices, like you have to look at the selling price in the U.K., probably tyres might be worth peanuts but I would rather export the tyres out perhaps at a reduced rate to help everything and move the products out than not move them at all. So that is where we come from as a company.
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:
I think in Guernsey they are charging people to drop of their tyres as well. I think there is an end use, but we would have to just check that one out.
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
There is an end use but also the person we deal with collects a lot as well from garages and businesses. So he wants them to a certain extent.
Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en:
Do you believe that you have more business in Guernsey in transporting tyres, et cetera, because --
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
You mean recycled products northbound?
Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en:
Yes, because Guernsey has no incinerator. Would you see a direct link?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
I would think there might be a link somewhere along the line, yes, because they are running out of landfill so they have had to be perhaps a bit more active in their recycling. Obviously if they are trying to use half of your incinerator, whatever the case may be, then yes.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
You said we have got weight restrictions in Jersey, as we all know, when materials are delivered to Portsmouth or wherever, are those materials then unloaded, loaded on to the 40 tonne --
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
No, we are in the position to put 2 containers back to back on the back of a trailer. But sometimes that is virtually or nearly impossible to do because a lot of depots in the U.K. now insist they arrive on a tipping trailer so therefore you can only carry one. So you are looking at about 18 tonne.
Mrs. R. Lempriere:
But the weight also is a factor in that. If the container is over 10 tonne then it has to go singly it cannot go as a pair.
Right, so just to be clear about that. Are you saying then that U.K. haulage companies are doubling up the materials --
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Subject to the weight allocation, yes.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Subject to the weight, right, and that would obviously have a knock on effect in terms of the --
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Well, it drops the price down because you have got one trip instead of 2, which is what we try and do with the clothes. Because we move the clothes out of Guernsey for a company in the U.K. called Kettering Textiles, they go from Guernsey in containers, and Jersey, so we go up with 2 containers, where in the past we just used to take up one, so you have got a saving there.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Would there be any benefit, bearing in mind, if this material recycling facility were to be built down at La Collette, would there be any benefit in being able to load up 40 foot containers prior to placing them on your ships to cut down on the handling?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Yes, there again, it is still a rate per tonne so if you have got 18 tonne in a 20 foot container you only can put about 24 tonne, 25 tonne in the 40 foot container. So you have to work out the pros and cons on the pound notes.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
Where does the shipping start? Would it start in Jersey and then on to Guernsey or would it be from Guernsey to Jersey, if you see what I mean?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
You mean the actual route of the vessel?
The Connétable of St. Mary :
Yes, so as to get a difference between cost, because if it starts from here and there --
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
It is irrelevant. We do not have different costs between Jersey and Guernsey, no. It would be the same -- we would look at the same cost. Just because it has got an extra 25 mile to go, no.
Mrs. R. Lempriere:
The only different are the harbour charges in Guernsey are different to Jersey.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel: They are more or less?
Mrs. R. Lempriere: £7.61.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel: So they are less then?
Mrs. R. Lempriere: Yes.
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: We are, sorry?
Mrs. R. Lempriere: £8.65.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
If indeed all of the recyclable materials could be passed to your particular company for export to further recycling places and would you be in a position to offer a discount?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Absolutely, volume of tonnage, that is the same as very business, most definitely.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
So the key issue in all of this is the ability to scale up in terms of --
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Yes, it is the ability of working closer together. As I said, I think, in one of the notes to you, some of the products would be handled going on wheels. They used to take the woodchip out, I do not know if they still do.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
I think a limited amount, yes.
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
We looked at that but we could not get enough tonnage in the 2 containers for the weight on the vehicle compared to what a 13.5 metre trailer open top could do. So basically we are a company that is going to be honest. If we say you are better off to put it on wheels, put it on wheels. That would save you money.
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:
What about the T.V.s (televisions), computers and things like that?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Whitegoods and everything else like that?
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:
Because there is obviously an element there with the tubes and everything else, we know that they are taking different handling in Transport and Technical Services to package these for shipping. Can you talk to us a little bit about this?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
There is not a great deal we know to be honest. We have moved a fair amount of computers out. A lot of the computers that, for example if a bank is redoing the office sometimes the computers end up going to a third world country. Really I do not know a great deal. Whitegoods, there again, the size, nothing is perfectly square. It is going to be very expensive. When you look at a fridge you have got one 5 foot, 3 foot, 2 foot, 6 foot. You cannot break them apart, I do not think because they are all C.S. gases, they have to be shipped whole. Really it is something that we know it is going to happen but I think everybody has probably looked the other way.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
It has been sometimes mooted that the cost of exporting material is prohibitive because we are an Island, would you have a comment on that?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
No comment whatsoever to a certain extent. We look at what covers our cost like any business and try to make a little bit on top of it to reinvest into the business.
The Connétable of St. Helier :
It is probably true to say that the Island is dependant on inward shipping for food --
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Absolutely, we depend on everything.
The Connétable of St. Helier :
-- and it could go off, I mean how much comes in by air, but presumably the large share comes in by sea.
Mr. M. Le Feuvre: Not a great deal. Yes.
The Connétable of St. Helier :
So that the notion that we are -- there is a very popular notion that we could never place ourselves at the mercy of shipping waste off Island and yet we are effectively at the mercy of shipping on to the Island.
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Southbound. I think we are all the same. We are a business, it is a very expensive business to be in, as we all know, the cost of these ships and we are just in the process now, as you have probably read through the press that we have got a new vessel being built. We hope to take charge of it. These things do not come cheap so you have to reinvest into the business. Our vehicles are the same, tractor units. We are looking now at the cleanliness of bio fuels. We use Soltron in all our vehicles because it keeps them clean and they last a bit longer and we are just a company which just looks to go forward and stays as green as possible. But we have to reinvest. So if you are spending X amount of millions on things you cannot just make a penny.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
Do you have any difference on the costing depending on what the goods or the products are, or is it a --
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Are we talking -- no, there is basically different costings per different products, yes.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
That is your own costings that you make. There is no kind of pressure put upon yourselves so that import of food or such like is any less or such like. It is based on a genuine --
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Yes, it is based on the space taken, the weight of the product. It is very difficult to put a pallet of something against a few cubic metres of timber. The timber might be worth a penny. So you cannot completely price it out of the marketplace. I think we work closely with our customers.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
I come back to knowing that there was a company, quite a few years ago, who were thinking of doing bottled water over here and they found by the time -- because of the volume they had to get the products over, it just did not make -- it was prohibitive as such. That was a volume situation and not a weight situation, that is why I did not know if there was different variations that you might charge accordingly.
Mr. M. Le Feuvre: There are variations but --
The Connétable of St. Mary : But not to any great extent?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre: No. No.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Right, I had one last question. The published statistics for the tonnage of imported materials for last year compared to previous years, it would appear that there has been a sizeable downsizing of the amount of goods that have been imported into the Island. Do you have any comments as to why that has happened?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
You are talking about 2007?
Deputy R.C. Duhamel: Yes.
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Yes, I will agree with you. I look at our tonnage as well we had a very -- everybody had a bad year, it seems to me, 2007. Why? I do not know, perhaps the building industry was a bit quieter, perhaps there was a lot of projects in planning waiting for approval, we do not know, but it seems to have turned around itself in 2008 so far.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
So it was a short term blip?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre: I sincerely hope so.
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:
Here is a strange question. Do any of the companies that ship out get things back? Is there any recycling coming the other way, like pallet boards or anything?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
We move a lot of pallet boards out of Jersey and Guernsey to put them back in the system, to make easier life and easier handling. I believe a few years ago we started receiving at our depot in Victoria Quay all the old pallet boards to save them going into the incinerator or to be smashed up. We used to send them back to the U.K. free of charge.
The Connétable of St. Mary : Is that the blue board?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
No, not blue boards. Blue boards are not ours. This is the old white euro boards, just what they call the one trip boards. Blue boards belong to either GKN or another company.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
So the one trips were getting used more often that one trip?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Yes, and not getting left around the Island to be burnt or smashed around.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
That is interesting, therefore those blue board ones, do they still get returned to the U.K.? Do they get charged as freight or is there an agreement that blue boards circulate free, shall we say?
They are owned by a company which is called GKN and they have an agent over here who drives around, I believe it is Patch Cole. You probably see his vehicles driving around with all blue boards on the back. He collects them and GKN work close with Condor and they take them back. Because a lot of companies in the U.K. when the goods arrive at the port of exit, there might be for example 50 pallets, let us say of water, and we have to dehire the 50 pallets. So those pallets have to get back into the system somehow and that is how they are done.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Right, I have got no further question, any other member? Right. In that case, unless you have any final closing comments that you would like to make.
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Basically, all I would like to say is we as a company are very interested in working with any recycling, happy to invest into equipment to be dedicated for that job. We are there to work as well.
The Connétable of St. Helier :
I suppose in the economic climate as well the fact is that vessels coming in are basically full, vessels going back northward are basically pretty empty --
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
They are full of fresh air, empty boxes.
The Connétable of St. Helier :
-- and so it makes very good sense for us to try and rectify this both in economic and environmental terms.
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Absolutely, but what we have to look at, if we are bringing dedicated equipment to take out contaminated goods and everything else, we have to bring that equipment southbound empty. So sometimes -- like we cannot put water in containers that have
been used for contaminated goods because a lot of U.K. companies are very frightened about cross contamination. So where you say we are moving boxes northbound empty, in this case we would be moving boxes southbound empty. We might be able to put some freight in but not necessarily all of them.
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:
Can I ask just one last question? In terms of available space on the ground in Jersey, area to work, harbour space or warehouse space around the Island, what is it that you have at the moment? Any spare at all or not enough?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
No. I think we have got adequate but we would take some more if we could find it.
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: Where is the majority of where --
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
We work -- our ship moors up on the New North Quay and our depot warehouse is on the Victoria Quay. We have 20,000 square feet down there under cover and we have about the same outside.
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:
You have no spare areas of that lying around?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre: No. No.
Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: Right, okay, thank you.
Mr. M. Le Feuvre: None at all.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
Can I just ask something on what you said previously about contaminated material? Does all recycling come into that category, all products?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre: No.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
Is there a split between what is and what is not contaminated?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
There would not necessarily be contaminated, there is dangerous goods as well. Hazardous goods.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
But out of the recycling fringe, shall we say that you have got, metal, paper, plastics?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre: That is fine. That is fine.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
That is not classed as contaminated?
Mrs. R. Lempriere:
It is like car batteries, oil, things like that, that would be hazardous.
The Connétable of St. Mary : Tyres are not?
Mrs. R. Lempriere: No.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
No. That was all, I just wanted to get the difference between contaminated or not. So there is not a great amount then, or certainly not in any volume that is classed as contaminated?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Not in volume, but it is there.
The Connétable of St. Mary : Yes.
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
It is there but not in huge volumes.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
So the basic volume would be in uncontaminated so there would not be that extra cost or proposition?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre: Correct.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Has your company been privy to any of the discussions that are taking place about the possible replacement harbour that has been discussed?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Our new C.E.O. (Chief Executive Officer) I believe has information passed to him through the relevant channels.
Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en:
I do not know if you have this information available of the tonnage of recyclable goods moved from Guernsey as opposed to --
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
No idea. In yearly tonnage I have no idea. I would not even like to hazard a guess. I know 3 years ago we started the glass, and you are probably talking about - I am purely guestimating - 1,200 tonne in the first year. Is that right?
Mrs. R. Lempriere: Yes, but it has decreased.
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
It has decreased because they have started to use it on the roads, on the first lane with their tarmac layer(?). So they have been working closely with Ronay(?) because some of the glass cannot not be used on the roads so that is what we export, but the rest goes through a machine and it is mixed on the first layer of the road.
Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en:
I just wonder whether you could have given, perhaps, a percentage, a fraction, of how much we are moving compared with Guernsey?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
I have no idea because obviously some of the products which go out go out through other companies. No, I have no idea. It would just be a number out of the sky. I would not like to do that.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Looking at your figures at the moment, if you are capable of dealing between 125-150 tonnes 3 times a week that scales up to 23,000-odd tonnes per annum. In terms of the next kind of quantum jump before you would be in a position to tender for increased business, would it be of the order of the same amount? So you would have to have a whole extra shipload in order to put on the service or would you consider operating --
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
That is difficult to answer because we would have to quantify our vessel and the space allocated and obviously return of equipment and everything.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
There is a definite certainty there that perhaps if there was a doubling of the quantities that were available to be recycled then your company would be interested in bidding for the extra material?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Yes, absolutely. But, as we say, we are looking for something for a 5 to 7 year agreement so we could invest into the equipment. We cannot invest into the equipment for 6 months because if I am putting £250,000 into equipment, I do not think my chairman would be too impressed with me.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
No. Have you ever considered as a company bargaining directly with the Parishes, rather than going through public services?
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
We are a shipping company, I do not think we could closely involved with 12 different people. You know, every Parish, from what I read in the Evening Post, is trying to do their own sort of stay green with their glass bins and everything else, but it is very difficult to deal with 12 people. You need somebody to lead it.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Right, okay. I think on that basis I would like to thank you very, very much for you openness and frankness. Your comments have been very, very useful. Thank you.
Mr. M. Le Feuvre:
Not a problem. Thank you.