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STATES OF JERSEY
Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Political Education Review
WEDNESDAY, 19th MAY 2010
Panel:
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour (Chairman) Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier
Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville
Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade
Witnesses:
Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. Saviour Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour
Also present:
Mrs. E. Liddiard (Scrutiny Officer)
[15.50]
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour (Chairman):
Okay, I would like to formally open this session now. My name is Roy Le Hérissier of St. Saviour, the Chairman.
Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :
The Deputy of Grouville , Carolyn Labey .
Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade : Deputy Montfort Tadier of St. Brelade .
Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier : Deputy Shona Pitman of St. Helier .
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: And our 2 witnesses.
Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. Saviour : Deputy Tracey Vallois, St. Saviour .
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Deputy Jeremy Maçon, representative of Petite Longueville at the Parish of St. Saviour.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay, thank you very much. I do not think we need to go through the witness statement with you because you quite clearly are both very familiar with it but we would like to thank you very much for coming.
Deputy T.A. Vallois: Thank you for your invite.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Not at all. As you know this is an inquiry into political education and we have got 4 broad questions but I am sure we are going to divert off into supplementaries and so forth. But I will kick off and then we will do 2, 3 and 4 with the remainder of our panel. I am sure, as I said, we will end up with supplementaries. So, initially what do you think about what is currently being offered in schools by way of political education?
Deputy T.A. Vallois:
My personal experience of political education was pretty much nil when I was at school so the advancement of what has happened over the last 10 years I think is good, it has come around in leaps and bounds but there possibly could be improvements but obviously that is under the next question. But I think with regards to the Year 5s being able to come into the actual States Chamber and understand the basics of our system, and then to be able to have the Scrutiny process et cetera later on, I think that gives them a good baseline of the political system in Jersey, whereas when I was at school that never happened.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Right, I was going to ask that question, apart from those 2 things how do you feel that the political education has changed in a positive way since you left school?
Deputy T.A. Vallois:
Basically when I was at school we could not ... we were never of the understanding that there was the 3 separate Senators, Constables, Deputies. I mean you could ask a broad selection of my generation whether they were taught anything along those lines and they would not be. Purely because of my role now within politics a lot of the people I know of now know the different roles because they speak to me. But at that point at school they were never aware. I do not believe most, or a lot, of my generation, a lot of people that I know, actually do vote.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Can you clarify which schools you were at, Tracey?
Deputy T.A. Vallois: What, primary, secondary?
Deputy M. Tadier : Secondary mainly.
Deputy T.A. Vallois:
Secondary was d'Hautree which then to Haute Vallee in 1998.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Were you at Hautlieu after that for a while?
Deputy T.A. Vallois: Yes, one year.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Was there any difference between what you got taught at d'Hautree, Haute Vallee and then Hautlieu? Can you remember where you got taught what?
Deputy T.A. Vallois:
In relation to political education? I was not taught any political education in any of the establishments I was at.
The Deputy of Grouville : Including Hautlieu?
Deputy T.A. Vallois: Including Hautlieu.
The Deputy of Grouville :
Which year did you leave Hautlieu?
Deputy T.A. Vallois: 2001.
Deputy S. Pitman:
You said that you did not receive any political education, was that just you did not receive any local political education? Did you receive any education on the U.K. (United Kingdom) or ...
Deputy T.A. Vallois: Not that I remember.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay, good. I think we have got a clear answer. I will just move on to Deputy Maçon, same question.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Thank you, yes. Very similar to Deputy Vallois, the difference was when I stayed on for A levels the Youth Assembly was offered to the A level students to come down to the States Chamber and have their debates in Year 12, put questions forward to Ministers which I think is a very good thing. But I think when you talk about ... when we talk about political education, there are different levels of political education. I think you have got the grand theories of Nazism, communism, capitalism, those types of things and from my perspective, because I did a history A level and because the teacher at the time focused on the modern political changes, so looking at a module on capitalism, communism and Nazism, and looking at how those societies were structured, because I chose to do those subjects for history at A level I was deeply immersed in that high level kind of political theory but of course you have got lower levels than that which include things like local issues, how you can get involved within the Island, how you can influence democratic decisions, which I did not get any in my education. I was not informed about you could influence it, how you did those types of things. Even going down to a more basic level of where the parishes are, we did have a ... I can confirm I remember doing a basic kind of geography of the Island where the parishes are but I cannot identify things such as this is a Senator, this is a Deputy , this is a Constable, this is their roles, which I think has changed now and that is included. But I also did not get anything like: "This is the electoral register, this is the form you sign" and the basic process, although that is supposed to be included with what is happening now ... because I think when you are a young person who has never voted before you do not know the process, you do not know how it works and it does need to be clarified about how you vote so that you put a cross in a box not a tick, not a one, not a smiley face, not those types of things because it does make a difference.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Do you do it with a pencil or pen?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Again, all these different types of things which people do think are important, and also basic things such as where your polling station is, where your parish hall is, because a lot of young people do not even know where their parish hall is. If they are expected to engage in the voting process, and therefore in the more rural parishes, knowing something basic like where your parish hall is does make a big difference about being able to engage in the process. I do not know from my education system where that is and I would imagine not much has changed under the current system, but of course you can correct me if I am wrong.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Yes, okay.
The Deputy of Grouville :
Sorry, just for the record, Jeremy, where were you at school? Just so we ask similar questions and what year did you leave?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Yes, that is fine. My primary school was La Pouquelaye, I then went to Haute Vallee and then at the 14 plus I transferred to Hautlieu and I left Hautlieu in 2005 and then I did a joint Social Sciences degree at Highlands College in partnership with Plymouth University. Within that there was different modules, including things such as the governance of micro states and politics.
Deputy M. Tadier :
The Highlands course did not inoculate you against politics.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
No, not at all. Not at all, it did not put me off one bit.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay, that is very useful. We will move on to question 2 with Deputy Labey .
The Deputy of Grouville :
Yes. As Deputy Vallois has said that you got no political education and, Jeremy, you have had some but mainly through a history degree.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Well, through choice I think, not necessarily built into the P.S.H.E. (Personal, Social and Health Education) curriculum as a political education module.
The Deputy of Grouville :
Okay, so would you be able to say how it could be improved or do you have knowledge of what is taught in your old schools or in any schools now as to be able to benchmark it as to how it could be improved?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
From speaking to younger people, such as the 16 year-olds who were able to vote or coming up to vote, they are of the opinion that really they are not really getting anything at any level because I did make that difference in levels. As far as they are concerned they do not see to get that and therefore your question how it could be improved ...
The Deputy of Grouville : Vastly.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Would be vastly, yes, indeed. I think, of course, there is always the question of whether one realises it is political education or it is not something else is always an issue because you can be talking about social issues and the individual may not actually realise what you are talking about is something very political. So sometimes when you will put the question ...
Deputy T.A. Vallois:
Yes, can I just come in on that. The point in improvement, I think, with the younger generation ... I have been to schools recently and spoken to 15 year-olds, 14 to 15 year-olds.
[16:00]
I think the point to make is that how they associate politics to their everyday life, and I do not think they realise how much politics is involved in their every day lives. I think us as politicians are not very good at doing that anyway, but whether that is our role to do that is questionable and whether it is Education's role I think there has to be found a balance. But there is improvement there because obviously a lot of the younger people that I have spoken to with regards to political education as such, it would be more in the realms of they are worried about their future so their housing, and I think we are all in agreement that the States in the past have not been too wonderful in looking long term. I think the housing situation and the fact that there is G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax) and how much things cost are real concerns to them. I think that is a very good starting point to say: "Well, getting involved in politics will possibly help you to improve those for the future." So I think it is association to politics and it is not just in Jersey, I think it is worldwide. Just the word politics immediately puts people off and it is not just younger generations.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: I agree entirely.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Can I ... this is generally related. I tend to think that there may be an element of selective memory, it is not just you but certain other witnesses have come in and they said: "We do not receive any political education." I find that very hard to believe because when I was at Hautlieu 15 years ago certainly we were given political education. I know some of the teachers that are still there and you get teachers like Michael Shelbrae(?), Gillian Bunting, John Renouf at Les Quennevais and these teachers can be found in lots of schools and I find it hard to believe that will not be giving political education. Is it an element that maybe it is not a coherent programme, or is it just that maybe it is not taught effectively, is it that students sometimes switch off, they do not realise that what they have been taught is politics, they are just not interested. I cannot seriously believe that there has been ...
Deputy T.A. Vallois:
No, I can categorically tell you I was never taught any form of political education at school. The only reason that I know anything about politics is because of my upbringing with my family. They were just interested in politics. I mean we used to sit around the table and debate between each other things in life, the basics of life, legislation and things like that. Also because I have known Senator Breckon all my life; I knew him when he first stood for the States so I knew the role because of that but not because of political education in the school.
The Deputy of Grouville :
So while schools are a good place to start do you think the issue is bigger than that in that there are many parents that come over, many teachers that come over and do not know or do not understand the political system that we have here in which case what do we do about them or do we just start in the education?
Deputy T.A. Vallois:
I think it does have to be looked at as a broader picture because you look at the generations and the difference in the generations and the way that the generations vote. You have got the older generation who will vote because they have been through difficult times such as world wars, et cetera, recessions over the years and they know how that has affected them quite badly so therefore they are more inclined to vote because they know that might change the way that the future goes. You have got other generations, for example now we have got all this political education which it could be improved, I am not the Minister, I am not ... you know, but it could be improved to a certain scale but, like I say, there has to be a balance as to what you do in the schools as to what you do in society. With regards to the actual generation point of view, now that we are teaching this in the schools the situation is with the parents of those children that are now being taught it, because they may not know the actual situation with regards to Constables, Deputies and Senators, and being able to catch that area I think could be quite difficult.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
If I can just go back and firstly answer Deputy Tadier 's question about none. I mean, it depends how you want to define politics because, yes, I went through the curriculum, yes, I went through Henry VIII, the revolution of the church, all those types of things ...
Deputy M. Tadier :
But in history, in the context of history.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
In history, now that is a form of politics, political education. So if you are using that definition then, yes, it was there. But I was referring more so to the P.S.H.E. curriculum which I think is more important because the politics in a sense can be weaved in and out of the curriculum. I remember in geography we did about car manufacturing in East Anglia, now you could argue that is politics because you are talking about economics. So you are quite right in possibly saying that politics is in there but the point I am trying to make is within the P.S.H.E. curriculum there was not any. But to answer Deputy Labey 's question about parents and outsiders, I think it is a valid point because we are perhaps spurned by our own complex system in that you have people perhaps coming in from political party system, parliaments and when you come into a system where there is independence but you may not necessarily understand ... with the different roles as well, yes I think it is very difficult but I think that if you have people that come in you have got to start with the younger people because if their parents do not know and you do not pick it up with the children, the children most likely are not going to pick it up either.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Can I just very quickly ... you just said there was not any political education in P.S.H.E., when were you there? What time period were you there at Hautlieu? You were there 4 years or ...
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
At Hautlieu, yes, it would have been 4, but 2003 would have been the end of your G.C.S.E. (General Certificate of Secondary Education) so you would not have had P.S.H.E. within the A level, so it would have been 2001-2002.
Deputy M. Tadier :
But you did G.C.S.E. after that, did you not?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
The A levels would have been 2004-2005 where you do not have ...
Deputy M. Tadier :
No, the reason I am asking is because we are hearing this time and time again, and you are saying between 2001 and 2003 there is no political education in the P.S.H.E. syllabus at Hautlieu. I find that hard to believe. I am not saying it is not true but we need to get teachers in and ask if that is the case.
Deputy S. Pitman:
It was in the syllabus ... it was in P.S.H.E. but I do not know ... it was in other schools but I do not know about Hautlieu.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Can I just comment about the P.S.H.E. curriculum because when we were at Hautlieu during that period it was pretty much seen as a doss lesson, it was not taken seriously, we had different members of staff wheeled in, we had guests coming in to talk about sex, drugs, alcohol, those types of things, but it was not taken as a serious subject to be taught seriously. So while the curriculum might have been there I can say that it perhaps was not ... I know there were times when the teacher forgot they were supposed to be teaching P.S.H.E. at the time so we got a free lesson. Yes, it might have been there black and white in the curriculum but whether it was necessarily being taught is perhaps another matter.
The Deputy of Grouville :
In fairness, this connecting young people with the community, the citizenship programme was designed by John Renouf in July 2006. But I think ...
Deputy J.M. Maçon: It has moved on but ...
The Deputy of Grouville :
... the P.S.H.E. lessons are still used for sex education, everything else that they have not got time for, plus politics.
Deputy T.A. Vallois:
Personal, Social and Health Education, is it not? I remember ... I think it was only something like one lesson a week or something that we had and like Jeremy says it was seen as pretty much the doss lesson. It was not really taken that serious.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Not to say that what we were provided was not useful information, it was not good having, of course because ... but I think the point is it is such a wide ranging thing. I know that got many years ... every year you would have something about sex, every year you would have something about alcohol, every year you would have something about drugs and perhaps there is other stuff that does not necessarily get touched on.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
But the politics did not embed itself in your mind?
Deputy J.M. Maçon: No.
Deputy T.A. Vallois: No.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
I was just going to ask, and then we will move to question 3 ...
Deputy S. Pitman:
Sorry, can I do a follow up from this question, from the original question about how good political education ... and then we went on to Carolyn's question about should it be wider in schools and I wanted to talk the Youth Service and I am not sure if both of you attended but first of all if you could tell us ... because I believe you went and you went to a very good youth club, I understand, the best in the Island. [Laughter]
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: The question is, Shona?
Deputy S. Pitman:
Could you tell me if you did receive any political education there, was it beneficial and also where you think the Youth Service will play its part in providing political education, not just in situ but also in schools?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
I will answer very briefly. I had no contact with the Youth Service during my education.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Do you think it could play a bigger part, given that it is a different kind education to formal education, do you think it could be brought into schools and utilised more?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
I think it possibly could but not knowing exactly how the Youth Service work I cannot really comment.
Deputy T.A. Vallois:
Yes, I did use the Youth Service but I did not go to the one you think. No, we did not learn politics but what is quite funny is we did learn a lot of religious information. Now, if you look at politics in the context of having a strong belief about something I think you can look at religion in a similar kind of vein of having a strong belief about something. So you have to kind of question the balance between learning about religious studies in schools and the balance of the politics side of things in schools. But you have to be careful there is no indoctrination obviously when you are teaching. But, to me, I think there has to be a certain amount of balance. I know a lot of people are into ... they have strong religious beliefs but I think a lot of people have very strong political beliefs so it is a fine balancing act. I think that could be looked at but ...
Deputy S. Pitman:
Given its nature as well, often young people are learning when they do not know it, do you think that could help the education, bring more fun into it?
Deputy T.A. Vallois:
I think the Youth Service could be a useful tool in distinguishing what politics is about. In actual fact if they have problems within the Youth Service to get a group of kids to identify that if there is a problem then for them to voice it to the authority within that parish for example. So they get to speak to the Deputies, or they get to speak to the Constable. Because that is one way to get them involved. To make them realise that they can be active in doing something, in changing something. So that instead of it being referred to maybe a youth centre member to deal with on a board of God knows how many people, you get them to get involved and really rally to get something changed. If they are really passionate about it ... we did that when I was younger just as a group of people that used to hang around together when we were younger, we had an issue with housing and we rallied around together to get them to try and change something. I mean they did not listen but, you know, the point was that we worked together and it is the sense of community which, to a certain extent, is declining in Jersey.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
That is a very interesting case study. I will forsake my question because time is of the essence and go to Deputy Tadier , number 3.
Deputy M. Tadier :
I think it has largely been touched on about where there is a link between political education in schools and the number of young people voting, particularly in the context now that the vote has gone down to 16 rather than 18. Can you comment on that?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
I have touched on it in the beginning but I think there is a key chance in developing the understanding of the very basics such as the process where you go to those types of things which if you do not know you cannot even begin to engage in the process. So therefore I think the Education Department do have a part to play because, again, if you do not have this basic knowledge where you can start from. That is of course in the situation where perhaps you have come from a home which is not politically active, obviously if you come from a home which is politically active, which is how traditionally it used to be in Jersey, then that is how people learnt. But, of course, households are different now, attitudes are different and therefore if you do not have that within the home then I think there is a role within the Education Department to do the basics of ...
Deputy M. Tadier :
But also the home does not provide, in any way, an objective kind of overall political education, does it? It is going to always be biased. It is useful but not everyone can benefit from that.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Yes.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Can I ask it as a slightly different question but I think it needs to be asked, it is about accessibility first of all of education but access in particular of politicians to schools. Do you think that is important and what are the pitfalls about politicians going into schools and what can be done to make it easier? Is it important, first of all, do you think that politicians have access to schools?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
I think it can be because if you make a person, in whatever role they are doing, more real to an individual then that helps them engage in whatever that is, and particularly in politics I think that is very beneficial. I think as well because within politics now you have got younger members, again you have got that ability to identify and it is not a load of old men sitting in a room making decisions, there is a mixture of people within there.
[16:15]
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Well, making decisions is a surprise.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Indeed. Or not as the case may be. But the point about going into schools, I have written to head teachers of various schools and I have been invited to give different talks to the students at different times, and I have put the caveat of: "Please do not hesitate to contact me" but of course I appreciate that it would be absolutely inappropriate for me to give my own political views on a subject or another because that would not be right. But when there are cases where you trip up you always end up by saying: "In my opinion", "I believe this" or: "But you will have to make up your own mind in time." I think there is a concern about, as Deputy Vallois mentioned, politicians going in trying to indoctrinate a captive audience, but it is a discipline within yourself as a States Member to be able to say: "This is what I believe but you, as an individual, will need to make up your own mind." But that is an individual discipline and I do not know how you could formalise that.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Do you think that the Education Department have addressed that issue appropriately?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
I do not know because I think the policy at the moment is politicians attend at the invitation of the head teachers and that perhaps requires States Members being proactive with the head teachers and talking to them. I do not necessarily think that is a bad thing but ...
Deputy S. Pitman:
The policy is that, as far as I am aware, the department do - as you have just said - feel that there is a risk of influence, would you adhere to that view?
Deputy M. Tadier :
At the risk of education ...
Deputy S. Pitman:
Or do you think that the young people should be left to make up their own views?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
No, I think it is right that you engage with people, give them the debate, but give them the options and given them the different sides of the story. I think it would be wrong to go in and only give one side of a story, whatever slant that be, I think it could perhaps be improved if something was organised where different people went in who had to argue from different political perspectives, even if it is not their own. Perhaps that might be useful, again, to engage young people.
The Deputy of Grouville :
Do you feel there is an apprehension of teachers to invite politicians into the school because the Education Department basically do not want to educate children in local politics?
Deputy T.A. Vallois:
I think there needs to be ... and I find this quite a lot across all States departments, not Education, but there is no consistency of a formatted framework for certain things. Now, if you are wanting politicians to be able to access schools then there would have to be a framework obviously for politicians to adhere to, because at the end of the day it is a States department and I know that there are views in different ways. We all have our own views and that is the point in politics. But we have to realise that parents have a say in what their kids are taught as well and there may be some apprehension on parents' parts in certain areas on particular politicians going into schools because they are not of a similar political persuasion. I think if it is applied consistently to all Members, a framework of them being able to be accessible to students, then yes. I think it is fair that there is maybe one rule for one and one rule for the other that we see ...
Deputy M. Tadier :
That seems to be what it is at the moment. It is arbitrary. It seems that if a teacher has a connection with a certain politician they will get invited into the school if they have got a history with the school. Ultimately I see it as being that is for the teacher to decide, they have got to make sure that they invite a cross-section. You can make a comparison with religion. If you are doing religious studies you may well invite a Catholic and you might invite a Muslim in, but that does not mean that they cannot talk about what they believe. You want them to talk about what they believe but you need to get a balance in the discussion afterwards.
Deputy T.A. Vallois:
This is why a framework needs to be set of what everybody works to, because at the end of the day it is about consistency and being able to give everybody the same opportunity, is it not? So it is not about choosing one politician over another. I think in many circumstances it is teachers that understand the politic system and know politicians that invite politicians into the schools. That is the difference and I think if it is teachers that are not particularly aware of the political Jersey way or the States as it is, they are less inclined to do so because they do not feel as if they know the system.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
But on that point of framework, I just stress the need for caveats, to make it very clear for the audience that these are politicians with certain beliefs and they are going to put things before you but just put the caveat that it is up to you to make your own mind up. I think that is important.
Deputy S. Pitman:
So what you are both saying then is that Education, as well as other departments but specifically Education, needs a consistent policy on this particular issue?
Deputy T.A. Vallois:
Yes, I think consistency can only help in all areas really, could it not?
The Deputy of Grouville :
Should they be proactive and encourage politicians in schools to speak about politics in a general way, the role of the Senator, the Deputy , how important it is to vote?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
I think they should. I can imagine that there are many different competing priorities within a child's education but, of course, the more opportunity one has the better.
Deputy M. Tadier :
I remember at school you learn about the police and a policeman comes in to talk to you. You learn about drugs, someone from the drug office comes in. It seems logical
that if you are learning about politics you want to have politicians coming in in a fair way.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay, thank you. I wonder ... because time is pressing on, number 4, Shona.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Some of it has been ... I think it has probably been addressed, has it not?
Deputy M. Tadier : Anything to add?
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
What can be done to encourage young people to vote?
The Deputy of Grouville : I thought we did that one.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Just very clearly, I think just the one point which I definitely want to make, to give younger people the understanding about how an individual can influence policy and to make those links between what goes on in government and what goes on in real life. The example I always use is the one that Deputy Labey uses, which is about: "An extra £10 on Jersey Life ticket, how do you feel about that?" and go on from there. I think it is very much about how it is taught and the subjects used to engage young people. I think that is kind of the best way to tackle it.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Do you think working in an environment which does not have political parties makes it more difficult?
Deputy S. Pitman: Well, it has. It has.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Yes, working in a system which has not got what traditionally would be seen as a [Laughter] 2 party or indeed a 3 party system ...
Deputy S. Pitman: A formal party.
Deputy T.A. Vallois: Or a coalition.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
... since I have been so rudely interrupted, do you think it makes it difficult?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
I think it is down to clarity, is it not? It is much easier to say, for example, the Conservatives they stand for this, Labour they believe in this, da, da, da, da, it is much easier to be able to work them and say: "This is this." Whereas with our system of individuals it is much more difficult to say: "This is such and such and they believe this but this is Senator such and such and they believe this and this Senator such and such and they believe this."
Deputy T.A. Vallois:
I think it is because it is a very complex system anyway, to be honest. You think how the system is made up anyway, you have Deputies, Senators and your Constables, there is no kind of aim to exactly what each individual does because we pretty much all do the same thing but yet we are set into separate titles and it is seen as some form of hierarchy. When you are changing a government from a committee system into a ministerial government it takes a different role I think, and because our system has become so complex it just confuses the general person in the street, let alone a younger person.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Is there an issue about the fact that certain ... a big number of students when they are at 16 or 17 do not necessarily see their immediate future as being in Jersey?
Deputy T.A. Vallois: Yes.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Yes.
Deputy M. Tadier :
So in some ways you could say it is futile because there is no immediacy, they are not going to have to use the vote any time soon, you know, they are 16 ...
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Well, they may not use it over here but perhaps when they move somewhere else they may want to use it, so it depends on what level you have engaged them, because if they have the understanding of politics and certain theories no matter where they live in the world they are going to benefit from having that understanding.
The Deputy of Grouville :
But to get slightly off subject, why do you think they do not see a future here in Jersey and should we not be proactive in suggesting to them how they can make that better, improve that situation?
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Yes.
The Deputy of Grouville :
So why do they not see a future in Jersey?
Deputy T.A. Vallois:
Because it is too expensive. That is what I have been told, that was primarily what I was told by some students that I went and spoke to.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
But then as well for some people Island life is not for them as individuals. They prefer to be in much bigger cosmopolitan areas than being in Jersey. That is an individual thing, that is a lifestyle choice and that is their decision. But having an understanding of politics and the way it works has got to be beneficial to them, in my belief.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Yes, thank you for that. Are there any final points? Sorry, I am conscious we could have devoted more time and I am conscious that we rushed you because we have got some school people in at 4.30 p.m. So any final points that you, Jeremy, and Tracey wish to make?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
No, I think I have made them all.
Deputy T.A. Vallois: No.
Deputy M. Tadier :
I think just, Roy, obviously we remain open for submissions if you have second thoughts that you want to submit to us, do that. We know that you have probably got a lot more to say. [Laughter]
Deputy S. Pitman:
Than the Education Minister.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay, on the behalf of the panel I would like to thank you both very much for attending and you have given us considerable food for thought. Thank you very much indeed.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Thank you very much. Deputy T.A. Vallois: Thank you very much.
[16:26]