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STATES OF JERSEY
Education and Home Affairs Panel Political Education Sub-Panel
FRIDAY, 16th APRIL 2010
Panel:
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour (Chairman) Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier
Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville
Witnesses:
Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture) Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges
Head of Personal and Social Education, Les Quennevais School
In attendance:
Mrs. E. Liddiard (Scrutiny Officer)
[10:02]
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour (Chairman):
I would like to welcome you all to this session of the Scrutiny Sub-Panel of Education and Home Affairs. First of all, just to apologise: Deputy Tadier cannot be with us today as a member of the panel, so apologies on his behalf. I would like to welcome members of the public, some of whom we even recognise. It will be the normal Scrutiny pattern, although as people know, we are trying to see if we can come up with innovative ways of collecting information as well; but no doubt that will be the subject of further discussion. So, what I would like to do first of all is I will make the usual assumption that you have read the witness statement and you are familiar with it. Mr. Renouf may wish to familiarise himself with it.
Head of Personal and Social Education, Les Quennevais School: I have not seen that before. Better read it.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Yes; if you could read it. So, the format is, we will first introduce ourselves and then we will launch into the questions which we can talk about. They are fairly broad questions, so you can expect supplementaries. While you are reading I will introduce myself. I am Roy Le Hérissier; I am Chairman of the Panel, Deputy of St. Saviour.
Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville : Caroline Labey , Grouville .
Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier : Deputy Pitman, St. Helier .
Cliff Chipperfield, Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges.
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
Deputy James Reed, Minister for Education, Sport and Culture.
Head of Personal and Social Education, Les Quennevais School:
John Renouf , Head of P.S.E. (Personal and Social Education) at Les Quennevais School.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Thank you all very much for coming. Now, this obviously is quite a broad-ranging review. It will look at political education in its broadest sense, but obviously we also know you have a formal syllabus which addresses the subject and we will look at what you might call the institutional structure, how you deal with teaching people about the parishes, the States and so on. Then, the other issue of how you deal with the whole issue of engaging people's critical skills and faculties in approaching politics - which, of course, as a member of this sub-panel reminded me just before, may involve a look at other aspects or how other aspects of the syllabus feed into this, like history and so forth, for example. Though that is not our prime focus, but we may have to look at that as well. Okay. I would also like to thank you for sending us the written material. It was very interesting, and certainly pleasing to have Mr. Renouf here who wrote a definitive report in 2006 which has informed the current curriculum. We do congratulate him on that. We hope it is implemented or partly implemented, but we will no doubt hear about that. So, as we are going to ask some fairly broad questions, we define today's session in a way as the big picture session where we get what your policy is, the areas in which you are moving and we hope to hear in more detail from future witnesses about what they are doing at the coalface within the schools; and of course we also hope to hear from students what their view is. That is an interesting issue how we hope to hear from them.
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
We would expect you to seek to gain the information in the same way that you normally do with the general public.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Yes, and obviously we will no doubt have a little discussion about this, but I think when you are dealing with young people I am not sure they want to to come and be exposed to the full panoply of a Scrutiny hearing. I think you have to sort of work on other ways of engaging them. I think we can discuss that later. Anyway, first of all, and obviously we would be quite keen for the Minister to lead on this, what are the principles that underlie your current approach to political education?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
I think the first point I would like to make is that we focus on what we term as "active citizenship" rather than political education per se. It is an integral part of our Personal, Social and Health Education curriculum which, as you rightly pointed out, has been developed over a number of years, and further refined in 2006; and equally I suppose I should add, is currently being reviewed to ensure that it is fit for purpose and meets the needs of our students, because ultimately that is why it has been designed. Anyway, just to take a step back, I think that the first thing that we should look at is the P.S.H.E. (Personal, Social and Health Education) curriculum itself, and what it is supposed to do. It is designed clearly to
help pupils gain the knowledge, skills and understanding that they need to become informed, active and responsible citizens. That is the whole curriculum. It encourages as part of that to actively participate in a wide range of activities and experiences across and beyond the curriculum, and that is another important point that I think we need to touch on: it is beyond the curriculum, contributing fully to the life of a school primarily, and the community that they live in. Through that learning process, pupils are encouraged to take responsibility for themselves as well as those around them. This in turn helps them to understand the society in which they live, and also to consider the many issues that are not only part of growing up and becoming informed, but ultimately to become responsible members of society. There is a whole focus of the P.S.H.E. curriculum and all the strands of it are designed to support that aim. As part of that programme they find out about the main political and social institutions that affect their lives, and equally about their responsibilities, rights and duties as individuals and as members of our community. As I say, the ultimate aim is to ensure that they are able and encouraged to be the active citizens who will participate and play an integral part within our community.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Can you tell us how you think, Mr. Minister, people can be made more politically aware, based on the school curriculum?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
It depends on what you term as politically aware. If it is aware of the issues that face everybody in their day-to-day lives, I think that not only we play a major part in that, but I think we do it quite well. We only need to look at ... let us just take an example of the recycling initiatives that are being encouraged. We have youngsters that are very focused on the environment and the need to recycle and protect their world, because ultimately it is their world as much as ours, and they are driving change; and I think in many other different areas the same applies. We have got to remember ... and I think it is quite easy sometimes to just focus on the Education Department and those responsible for delivering the education, and not look at the wider involvement of others, whether that is either politicians, whether it is the families, whether the parish organisation authorities; and indeed, all the other voluntary organisations and pressure groups and the like that make up our community.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Can I just ask, you speak about biennial reports? How do you work with these other departments and other agencies in order to take an holistic approach, if you like, on this subject?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
You speak about how we work with it, and I will ask one of my colleagues here to maybe elaborate, but let us get one thing straight: everybody has a responsibility, and although we can guide and encourage other organisations and agencies to participate within our community, we are as a department not able to dictate or direct if States Members, parishes, other groups choose not to be actively involved in the community and in the lives of the general public including our young people. It is very difficult to engage those people. We have seen, in fairness, with regard to the Scrutiny experience there has been I believe a great success in developing a better understanding of the new system of government that we are all part of. But we have not had enough Scrutiny members taking part in those events that we have organised across the schools. What does that tell you? What impression does that give to our young people? So I am saying that although I acknowledge that education has a
responsibility, we have a curriculum, we are required to prepare our young people for the world that they will be living in, participating in, working in, there is equally a responsibility, whether it is government, whether it is parishes or any others, to step up to the mark and play their part in, in particular, developing and promoting involvement within the community.
The Deputy of Grouville :
Could I just ask something there? I feel I have to take issue about what you have just said. You said that there are not enough Scrutiny members that have taken this up. I have been invited to one Scrutiny session at Le Rocquier School which I participated in, one. I participate in another school because a particular teacher asks me in every now and again. I am not really sure what you mean. But also, if I could just make the point, surely Education ought to be taking the lead here.
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: We are.
The Deputy of Grouville :
So, parishes are participating and Scrutiny members when they are invited, but surely Education has got to set these things up.
[10:15]
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
We do, and we have, and we spend an awful lot of time, and I am not being personally critical about any individuals within this room, I am just stating fact. If you choose to look at the facts, in the Scrutiny project that has been run in the schools for the last 3 years, on every occasion it has been difficult to find sufficient Scrutiny members, politicians, to attend and take part in the process. Not that is just a fact. I am not being critical.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
I do not want to get into a pro and con about this too much.
Deputy S. Pitman:
I just want to bring up this point: it is ironic that you say that because we have asked to sit in your P.S.E. citizenship session just to try and get a comprehensive review and you turn around and said: "No."
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
I have said that I did not believe it was appropriate, and that it was not necessarily beneficial to anybody to be involved in that particular area. We have provided you, I believe, with more than enough material so that you can understand the curriculum that we provide. I think you have got every available opportunity throughout the Scrutiny process to invite written submissions, to have various meetings, hearings, encourage others to contribute and offer without necessarily needing or requiring to sit in to a particular class which may or may not intimidate or interfere with the individuals who are taking part in that particular lesson.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
I think we are going to have to discuss that later because there is an area of disagreement here.
Can I just not on that subject, but I just wanted to go back to the original question that I asked and carrying on from what Carolyn has said. You have not explained what your department is doing with regards to implementing a holistic approach, i.e. in working with other agencies and departments in delivering this education.
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
Well, maybe now some of the individuals that we have asked ... Cliff Chipperfield first of all, just to explain a little bit about how we are and what work we do to encourage others to participate in supporting the curriculum that we provide.
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
Of course. I can give a couple of specific examples this last month, really. Other than the exercises that we have spoken about in terms of the year 10s specific activity which is the Scrutiny activity which we are now just looking at the papers for this round. We are trying to see which papers are relevant to the current 15 and 16 year-olds to engage with. So we are working with Scrutiny through that process. When you talk, Deputy Le Hérissier, about political education, citizenship engulfs all that we do. We recently have just launched the Sustainable Schools project. Now the other department specifically involved in that is Environment, but underneath that there are around about 15 to 20 different other organisations who have contributed to the environment education within our schools. So there is an example of where, in the last month, we have taken on board the opportunity of working with another department with all these other agencies ranging across a whole band from Ecology through Heritage where they will all contribute in an organised way to make schools more eco-sustainable, and that is a key part of our citizenship programme, that type of education. Another strand to the political education that is an important part: when John worked with the 2006 document he engaged with every agency we could in terms of how they would wish to contribute in terms of working with our schools. There are a number of occasions in fact obviously we were preparing for this meeting yesterday, and we were talking about different ways that schools are active, and we had other colleagues there which I believe you will be meeting at other opportunities, and they can talk specifically around how schools engage with. The recommendations of the 2006 report did encourage schools to engage with other organisations. John was talking yesterday, and I will let him talk about it, where he asked questions of his 14, 15, 16 year-olds, what issues are concerning you at the moment? When they raise these issues then the school invites those agencies in to discuss, whether it is bus time I mean, 15, 16 year-olds, where they have social activity, the buses are important to them. So when they raise these issues, those agencies are invited into schools to participate in that debate. But I do take your point. It is not strictly organised on a
half-term by half-term by half-term basis with various organisations in a rota-type basis. What it is is opportunity where issues arise, where young people want to engage - the same as you, your colleagues in your actual political life - that is where we try and get our young people to be in active engagement with the issues at the time. In fact, there has been a number of your colleague politicians recently have gone into schools and discussed particular issues. That is the way round it is: as issues arise, people are invited in. John, would you like to add to that?
Head of Personal and Social Education, Les Quennevais School:
I think you have covered most of the ground. There are 2 strands really. There is the centralised area where the department does participate in the organisation of things like the Scrutiny exercise, year 5 coming into the States Chamber from every primary school, and the
Youth Assembly in year 12. There are also things such as "Prison? Me! No Way!" that goes round all the schools too and involves young people in the services that keep the Island functioning. Then, apart from those that are organised centrally, it is down to the discretion of individual schools, as Cliff was saying, to follow up the links. My inbox is full every day of people saying: "Can I come in? Can I do these things? Can you include this in your curriculum?"
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay. Thank you. We do come to that in the questions, so this might be a good time to move to the Deputy 's other
The Deputy of Grouville :
You described how where there are issues that interest young people (for example, waste management), you might invite people in. But essential things, for example social security, social security cards and all the rest of it, essential life issues for example, I have a 16 year-old at home. Does he know he has got to go and get a social security card? Those sorts of things. How do you go about educating them with essential life?
Head of Personal and Social Education, Les Quennevais School:
The career strand covers those things, in that it kind of comes under the P.S.H.E. umbrella, if you like. In some schools it is the same person who coordinates the P.S.H.E. and careers. In my school it has to be 2 different people. But a lot of the things that do with employment are covered in the careers' programme. All of these issues are perhaps separate in terms of careers, P.S.H.E. and there is also the general tutorial stuff that happens in schools as well. I happen to have the year 11 form, and recently as part of that tutorial programme we had a session with the J.A.C.S. (Jersey Advisory and Conciliatory Service) talking about their rights at work, and somebody came in there and spoke to them. So there are various different ways in terms of what will happen in schools for these issues to be covered, and one would hope that that would be happening in every school too, that everybody knows about their rights.
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
Another example, if I may, Deputy : 2 years ago when the law was changed for voting at 16 I had to do a piece of work to ensure that ... because it was a piece of work that was post-16 up until that point: in other words so young people could understand how they register to vote, how they go about. In other words, the practical aspect of how to become a voter was usually dealt with post-16 education, but with the change in law then we had to deal it in key stage 4; and in 2008 we did a piece of work to ensure that was included in the key stage 4 curriculum. So those aspects are dealt with within the teaching of key stage 4, and understanding how to go through that process to register with the parish hall or getting the forms to them. So the practical thing you asked about, social security for example, they are dealt with within the curriculum structure of key stage 4.
The Deputy of Grouville :
Which leads on to the next question: how does it differ from one secondary school to another, and between the different sexes?
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
The curriculum document as you read through it, is broad at the outset but when it comes into the key stages and cuts across the strands then it becomes quite specific. When you go down into the individual schools, different teachers have different ideas and different activities how to deliver the curriculum. You see that we are reviewing the secondary, but when we went through the process of reviewing 2006, that was particular for citizenship, which is important because I think the aspects you are asking about broadly fall into that citizenship strand. When we went through that review 2006 we did get together and say: "Right. What are you doing? Let us look at your teaching materials. How are you delivering citizenship in key stage 1, key stage ...?" So through primary and through secondary school. There were some really good ideas, because obviously there are certain strengths in certain schools, certain parishes offer different support, some Connétable s are very active in their schools, others we encourage to become active because of those aspects. We have also done an awful lot of work which we will be publishing about local history which also fits into that, which is mainly parish based. So we looked at how individual schools ... when we met with the 11 to 16 secondary heads at the P.S.H.E. again we brought out the curriculum documents; and the review we are doing this year which we publish for you in terms of its framework goes beyond citizenship because we were concerned about how up to date the health aspects of our P.S.H.E. curriculum works because they are always changing. So especially around drugs education, alcohol education, sex education, and working really closely with Health Promotion Unit and their teams. They are the ones at the cutting edge of the information. So, that review looks at the individual schools type curriculum. If you wanted to go into that, I have not produced any schools' curriculum plans, but they are all there. Through our reviews we look at them. We do put up activities on our virtual learning environment that can be shared, because if there is a really good idea we think: "Well, all schools need to have access to this." That goes on the virtual learning environment and so different teachers: "Oh, yes, I see how that has worked," and they see evidence of outcomes of those resources. The heads of P.S.H.E. meet every half-term for the secondary phase, and they are always sharing ideas and looking at curriculum, but within schools - it is the same with many departments - other subject areas are far more comprehensive. Say, for example, teaching some of the core subjects like English, maths, science, the content there in the structure is dictated by the external examinations. Within P.H.S.E., the heads of P.H.S.E. have, with their team within
schools, the ability to create a curriculum and be a little bit more imaginative, and see what strengths they have in the school, what they get from outside agencies. So it is from ... but sharing practice goes on all the time. If you want to get into that depth, you certainly see examples of primary curriculum, secondary curriculum, post 16 curriculum
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
I think it would good to send us some examples.
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
Well, I can do you a sample across the face of it. I did not realise you wanted it for this stage. I just sent you the broad curriculum document. So would you like an example of primary, secondary, all through from foundation stage, because obviously citizenship at nursery is very, very different?
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Yes. No, primary and secondary, I think.
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
I can do you a cross-section. That would give you how a school would map their curriculum on to the detail of the policy document which is the Minister's curriculum document with P.H.S.E. This is the key stage form one which is important to some of the questions you are asking round about involvement in political debate, awareness of current issues, how they learn how to vote. So that is the reason I highlighted that page. But we can pull those out, give you examples at each of the age groups and your survey also will pull in information across that survey you want to put out to young people; that can pull that in as well.
The Deputy of Grouville :
So that is the curriculum as put down, but who monitors that, because you know with other curriculums, for history or whatever, the young people take an exam at the end?
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges: That is a good point.
The Deputy of Grouville : So, who is monitoring this?
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
The first people that are held accountable are the heads of P.S.H.E. within the school. They are responsible for creating that curriculum within the school. They are accountable to their head teacher. The head teacher is responsible for monitoring the curriculum within the school and ensuring that it is fit for purpose and it is meeting the young peoples' needs. My responsibility is to hold those schools accountable and over the last 3 or 4 years, 3 or 4 of our secondary schools have had external inspectors to look at the teaching of P.S.H.E. So those go to the Minister and the Minister holds me accountable and when I have a report from of a school in terms of how the P.S.H.E. curriculum is being taught, he sees that external report. So there is a level of monitoring all the way through, head of department, head teacher, the department, and the Minister holding me accountable to ensure that process takes place.
The Deputy of Grouville :
Would you accept that it differs, in some cases quite greatly, from school to school?
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
All schools will be delivering this P.S.H.E. curriculum. In terms of the materials they use, in terms of the styles they may approach, there will be differences. But in terms of content
The Deputy of Grouville :
But as a parent with boys and a girl, I have seen huge differences.
[10:30]
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
In terms of the actual content, in terms of the approach, I would agree there would be differences across schools. In terms of the end product, from the monitoring we have put in place so far, the citizenship programme is being taught as a strand of the P.S.H.E. programme.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Is there an opportunity for young people to give their feedback on programmes, the curriculum, and what they have been taught in the year?
Head of Personal and Social Education, Les Quennevais School:
Within individual schools we do that constantly. Every unit you need feedback, but it is a matter at the beginning I usually do things in sort of half-term units. So students will have say 6 weeks on drugs education, 6 weeks on citizenship, and you first of all begin by finding out their existing knowledge, what they remembered from last time, where did we build upon that. I am very happy to say there is a degree of flexibility in the way I can approach this, because if a group says: "Well, we do not understand that" rather than going to where I wanted to go, I will respond to their needs first. For example, if there is something crops up in the community, there is a particular policing issue, shall we say, and they say: "Well, you know, I know we should not be doing that but we are really fed up with the way this person is treating us" you know, you pursue that. Then sometimes the feedback is in terms of practical actions you have initiated and the young people can carry on for themselves. That is the best kind of feedback. They can say: "Yeah, we are really pleased now. We have had a meeting and we are going to meet again and discuss this issue and come to a solution with the agencies outside of school time." That is the best kind of feedback where some action is taken outside the classroom. The most boring kind of feedback is some kind of student evaluation which you then use to re-evaluate your approach.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Does some of that get put into a central machine to assess whether you should be going this way on the subject or ...?
Head of Personal and Social Education, Les Quennevais School:
It is very much an internal matter to me. I cannot see that my giving feedback on what my course has helped young people with or did not help young people with is going to be relevant. But if I or my students come up with the solution to a particular problem and I thought that is worth other schools knowing about, then yes, indeed, I do communicate very regularly. It is not just the half-term meetings. We email each other fairly regularly; pass on our triumphs and disasters.
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
At Heads of P.S.H.E. meetings quite often there are discussions around about what has gone well in schools, and they base that view on how the young people responded and that is shared across schools in terms of an exercise that has gone particularly well, an agency that has come in that has gone particularly well. Joining something you asked earlier, Deputy Pitman, is round about other agencies: Health Promotion is very proactive at the moment. So for example, if a school is dealing with round about sex education or alcohol or drugs education, parents are informed because obviously if these young people are experiencing that learning and then going home, the parents need to be able to discuss the issues they have learnt in school. What Health Promotion offer to support schools at the moment, as part of their curriculum if they know they are planning to teach a certain topic, Health Promotion are prepared to do a parents' evening and say: "Right. During this week your young people will be learning about this. This is the terminology they will be learning. These are topics they will be discussing." So therefore when they come home from that learning experience you have got an opportunity to talk on the same wave length, rather than: "Oh my word, have they really learnt about that this week."
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
Ultimately, whatever is taught within this particular P.S.H.E. curriculum is going to be relevant to the young person, and this is why, and I fully understand it would be nice to see you do one hour of this, 3 hours of that, 4 hours of that. But we need to be able to respond quite closely - especially if you are seeking to develop this sort of active citizenship role - to those issues as and when they arise. So there will be the variation in the topics and areas that will be concentrated on. But in the same way that this is an ongoing development of an individual, it happens that we are looking at, and this group is focused on, the 5 to 18 age group.
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
I have forgotten the significant talk that gives us feedback on the impact of the curriculum. It is the biennial health-related behaviour questionnaire that Health put into schools, and that is a significant tool for us to understand what young people are thinking, what their current behaviours are, and it really does impact on our curriculum in schools; because that questionnaire result we see as a global end of all year 6s, all years 8s, all year 10s; but schools get their results individually. So head teachers and heads of P.S.H.E. get the breakdown - obviously not individual children - they get the breakdown: "This is what your year 10s are saying; this is what your year 8s are saying," and issues that come through the results of that questionnaire can then be responded to in the teaching in that school.
The Deputy of Grouville :
Is it compulsory to fill them in?
Head of Personal and Social Education, Les Quennevais School:
Well, a letter gets sent home to parents, and in my particular school no parents objected.
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
So every parent receives a letter for the year 6, 8 and 10s just before Easter. Every parent receives a letter explaining the questionnaire. It happens every 2 years. We still inform parents about what the questionnaire is about. It is now done on line confidentially, and it is tested to be confidential. Health goes to an independent body. So, yes, it is confidential. I cannot remember the percentage for last 2 years, but the vast majority of pupils participate. You will have seen 2 years ago that lovely brown glossy booklet that came out with it all. You get and we get the cumulative results and individual schools get their results which are really, really useful in terms of curriculum design.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
I wonder, just building on that, there were a couple of questions I was going to ask. I mean, you describe what appears to be this very good sort of evaluation system, and we are going to come back to that later. But there are 2 separate questions. How do you deal with global issues? Because John described - and it sounded very good - a problem-solving approach where students bring up problems, you then sort of have discussions and then you presumably draw in the bigger picture for them while you are dealing with the problem, which is excellent. But what about the big global issues? How do you generate excitement and interest in those? The second issue, which is unrelated in a way: you talk quite a lot in your report, John, about the real issues with what you call "social capital." You know, the whole idea that people feel viable, strong and committed members of society, and the breakdowns that are occurring in our society. How do you deal with people who are essentially alienated, who do not feel part of this society? How do you get them involved? So, 2 issues.
Head of Personal and Social Education, Les Quennevais School: If you have the answers, Roy, let me know. [Laughter]
It is that joint responsibility again, in fact, because it came out as an educational responsibility, as Deputy Labey quite rightly mentioned, about political responsibility and community responsibility, and where the research showed there were breakdowns it is one of those 3 factors or combination of those factors that were working together.
The Deputy of Grouville :
Yes, but surely the schools have got to take the initiative. I will use an example of a school that I am invited into sort of every 3 months. It is one school and, after a session with the young people, you can speak to them about politics. At the beginning of the class they are disinterested; at the end when politics are related to them they are very, very active and have huge amounts to say about it. But that is one school I am invited to. Now I believe there are other politicians who are invited into this one school. Les Quennevais, I am sure it is very active because they have you, but what about the rest? What about all the other schools?
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges: I know that all schools invite politicians in.
The Deputy of Grouville : On a regular basis?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
To meet the needs of the pupils. The whole point as I understand it and relating to the policy, is that the P.S.H.E. curriculum forms part of the overall curriculum of the school. As such we have got to recognise that, first of all, there is a limited amount of time that can be spent on this particular matter, because we have to educate our children in the core subjects that will enable them to access work and careers. That is the first point, and we need to recognise that, because by recognising that, when you start looking at: "Okay. This is the Personal, Social and Health Education curriculum we are providing." Within that, there are these different elements. One is political education. Now it might be high on our agenda; it might be very low on a young person's agenda. Their interest may be in their health, their behaviour. I mean, it can be a whole range of things. Now the whole point is that
The Deputy of Grouville :
But, Minister, that is precisely the point. They do not know if it is high on their agenda if they have not had the subject related to them.
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
But they do. Carolyn, there are some basics that we must not overlook. One is that I believe in all our schools, there are school counsellors, whether it is a primary school or secondary school. Agree? So, where the youngsters are involved in determining and deciding issues relating to the school, there is a process, an election process, and a responsibility. That is a foundation that they start with, in every school. Over and above that, as you are well aware, we encourage the youngsters to come and take part in visits, I think it is year 5, to the States Assembly and participate. We then move it further forward into the Scrutiny experience which is another major initiative which is definitely helping and working, I hasten to add. Then finally we have got the Youth Assembly. So we have got a number of elements. Also, and I suppose more importantly since the change in voting age, we have started to place more attention on to that particular age group to encourage them to use their right to vote. But also, and alongside of this, and prior to that, the schools are involved when and where possible in
elections. I mean, I can remember the youngsters from La Moye School coming in, and in fact the college being closed on a particular occasion where the youngsters participated in the election. All of these elements are there. Let us not forget that we might choose to improve different aspects, but all of these elements are there which support and promote that political involvement.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
I will have to stop you there, Mr. Minister, but that is a good I wonder if John could answer those 2 questions.
Head of Personal and Social Education, Les Quennevais School:
Yes. As I said, we must not forget that citizenship education, the involvement with States of Jersey is a very small part of that, because for me the starting point of citizenship is how we live together. For a lot of young people, a lot of people, perhaps they can perfectly adequately live together without coming across the Square or being involved with politics in any way, if that is your definition as politicians. Again, it is a matter of problem solving, and a lot of young people the problems they have to solve they can perfectly well solve without us to a large point. So in terms of how we live together, if that is the crucial point and building a society, the first society that young people build, of course, is at home, and we do spend some time talking about it at secondary school, about the kind of rights and responsibilities at home. When they come into the school, one of the first things that happen at the meeting stage I think, is that you negotiate a classroom contract. You talk about what is acceptable behaviour and why, and you talk about those things. So the first example of how we can live successfully together would be that kind of classroom contract. Then that evolved through perhaps year councils, school councils, into a whole set of school rules and codes of conduct. We talk about how we can safely and happily live together in this big community. Start off with the small community, the classroom; then you build it into a year, and then you have room for the whole school. So, that is kind of living politics in terms of how do we behave to each other in the school? We also explore within that hopefully increasingly in every school too, where is the power in the school? Ultimately it is with the teachers, but I certainly find through P.S.E. and anything else I get involved in teaching, we need to work with young people rather than trying to force things on to them. So it is a matter of negotiation, and I think schools are working hard at involving student voice in all areas of the curriculum. We have to listen to young people. Now that is, for me I can use the word politics. If a student says: "Your P.S.E. lessons are boring, Mr. Renouf , because you do too much talking," okay, good point. That is politics.
Then let us explore what we are trying to achieve collectively, and what should our roles be in order for us to meet those ends. Now, that kind of thing is happening in every school, in every subject, and I think that is more important, even for me as a Jerseyman. It is even more important than the difference between a Senator and a Centenier.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay. Good. We have got to move along.
Head of Personal and Social Education, Les Quennevais School:
Your second point about the alienation. You need to make people feel engaged in the small areas to begin with, and you make them feel that what they have to say is listened to and is important, and that is how we try and go against the disengagement from society.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Sorry to rush you on that one, but we are obviously going to have to revisit that with the other specialists, so to speak, when they come in at subsequent meetings.
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
Can I just ask you a quick question on that? I see you have invited 2 heads of P.S.H.E. Will you engage all the heads of P.S.H.E., because you have asked questions about all schools in terms of their participation and how they do things? I am quite happy with who the 2 you invited because there is a colleague from 11 to 16 and a colleague from a fee-paying with sixth form. So it is quite a good combination; you will get a view from 2 different aspects. But I mean, obviously there are other schools, but
The Deputy of Grouville :
This is why we put it to you. How do you monitor the standards being taught across the schools? I mean, I do not think it is for us necessarily to interview everyone that teaches a subject. It would be quite good and reassuring to know that the subject is taught equally between schools and between the sexes.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
I think we have already confirmed that, and I think the offer should not be misconstrued. I mean obviously the aim of the department, the individuals here, is to enable you to gather the information that you require and basically that is the offer.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Gentlemen, we are going to have to follow that up because there is a difference of opinion about how student involvement should go. We have to have a discussion about that, but on your issue, if I may chip in.
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges: Is that minuted, that pun?
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Yes, it was recorded. There was a letter sent out to secondary schools inviting everybody, as you well know, so we did have an approach from a very recent retiree who wished to express some views and we thought that would be useful as you saw from the list. But we are open to other suggestions. Back to another issue that was of enormous importance at the time, the whole issue of the actual election, and there was of course a policy issue and Deputy Pitman will now be referring to that.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Yes, what was the rationale behind the rules applied to political activity and discussion at the last election and for the next election?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
I think it was 2 things. To ensure fairness and balance and also to avoid disruption to education and the concern that we have a responsibility to our students which we take very seriously and we did not believe that they should be placed in any situation that a member of the general public would not be put in. As such the view is taken that we would not allow candidates access to schools in election time.
Deputy S. Pitman:
You organised a hustings for young people at Hautlieu, I believe.
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
The request came from the candidates at that time, Deputy Pitman, and the Minister and Director at that time, in terms of a venue which was central, in terms of a time which was outside of normal school hours. I think the point that the candidates made at the time ... our view was that these young adults had equal opportunities as any other adults in the Island to access the candidates, their manifestos, in the same way. So a simple view was candidates would not go into any other workplace to address voters so why would they go into schools during the working day? So when they said: "Well, actually these young people may not be able to get transport, for whatever reason they may not be able to access a hustings as other adults would" they asked if they could conduct hustings at a central environment so we organised Hautlieu. The candidates attended. It was advertised across the schools saying there was a hustings opportunity. I believe the turnout was very, very low for those 16 to 18 year-olds.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Why do you think that the turnout was very low?
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
I do not think it was an educational reason. I think it was their current engagement with the political process and their wanting to be involved or, maybe they had the information already through other sources. I mean the pamphlets were all at home, all the candidates that came into my parish the pamphlets came through the letterbox.
Deputy S. Pitman:
How did you advertise for young people?
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
Through the sixth form; we asked head teachers through the sixth form common rooms, the year 11 staff areas, that this opportunity was at Hautlieu School at 4.00 p.m. on whichever day it was. So we allowed all those young people, and it was done through the J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post) and the media, it was advertised by the candidates through the media, that this opportunity was there if they wanted to attend a hustings where their issues that they were interested in could be ... they could ask the candidates, that was their opportunity. I think a couple of hundred turned up.
Deputy S. Pitman: No.
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges: Was it not?
Deputy S. Pitman: No.
The Deputy of Grouville : It was more like 2.
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
I do not think that was the fault of the schools. I cannot see how that could be.
The Deputy of Grouville :
I think it was catastrophic. I think the message did not get out. I always use my own example, my children did not know when it was taking place, had not even heard about it.
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
I know for sure in those 2 schools it was posted in the sixth form common room.
The Deputy of Grouville :
It was set up at the time the school buses leave.
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges: The time was chosen by the candidates, not us.
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
I think clearly there are lessons to be learned. We are not suggesting that everything is perfect. We are planning to review the particular pros and cons. We want to ... as I say, I come back to the fact that we want to enable our students to be able to have the same opportunities as every other member of the public and that is important. I think there are opportunities which have been explored previously where certain age groups will look at all of the literature provided by all of the candidates. However, I suppose, and I know that Deputy Le Hérissier has spent much time on how one may or may not be able to engage with the public, but ultimately I think the same issues apply with young people and that is that we come back to if there are issues that they are interested in, have some meaning to them, then it is likely that they will be engaged, it is likely that they will get involved.
Deputy S. Pitman: It goes back to the ...
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
If it has no meaning, and bearing in mind at 16, 17, 18 years of age - I can still remember being that age - my interests certainly were not political. They were more interested in the more basic things and needs at that time.
Deputy S. Pitman:
It goes back to what Deputy Labey was saying before about education taking a lead on this issue with young people and education informing young people and allowing them to learn why politics is important to them. That message does not seem to come across in the hustings and I believe there were about 15 to 20 people that attended. So, you have mentioned lessons to be learned, how will you improve that next time around? There is also an issue in allowing people to learn how politics is important to them, giving them access to politicians directly. Next time, next elections, how does education intend to improve on doing this?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
Let us be very clear, as I say we come back to the students' need to be able to access politicians and participate in exactly the same way as the general public. Students are no different to you and me. They know, they read papers, they hear the news, they watch the
T.V. (television), they talk to their friends and they still have access to telephone books with all the telephone numbers of all the States Members listed in the front. There is no reason why any student, whatever their age, is restricted in being able to access States Members. What we can do and what we aim to do through the various learning initiatives and the curriculum that we use, is to ensure that those students know what they are able to do, know how to engage if they choose, because it is a choice after all in the same way that it is an individual choice for people to exercise their right to vote, to get involved in politics, to promote a particular issue or matter, the same applies to our students.
Deputy S. Pitman:
But do you not agree that part of young people becoming involved in politics is enabling them to access politicians as the general public do in hustings? A lot of young people will not go to those hustings because they do not think it is relevant to them. However, education taking a lead on that and trying to educate them into how important politics is, should you not be encouraging further or making improvements for the next election for them to access politicians?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
I agree improvements need to be made. Maybe John can elaborate on some of his ...
Head of Personal and Social Education, Les Quennevais School:
I think it is not just improvements. Like you I would love to see them hold a meeting for young people at Fort Regent with the candidates. But it is an issue not just for young people. It is an Island-wide thing. If you have 20 candidates it is the format that is crucial. I think for people of all ages if you have 20 candidates doing their 5-minute speech and there is time for 2 questions at the end that does not appeal to many people and it is something that the States are going to have to look at. It is a problem. But it is a problem not just for young people; it is a problem in terms of how those hustings are handled in future because what young people like in particular is the personal ding-dong. They want to get a politician into the classroom and have a go at him or her and be able to ask follow-on questions. At the kind of hustings meeting that is not possible. There are too many candidates. I think that one has to look, particularly for young people, at the format and the best people to advise on the format when the time comes will be young people asking how they can best engage with the candidates.
The Deputy of Grouville :
That is precisely it. It is engaging them in the political process. The question I was going to ask is I have heard what you have said about the active citizenship programme, which I was on Education when we were devising it. It is about being a good citizen as well, but also there is an element of hard-core politics that has to be taught and then related to the young people and it is only when you go and sit before them to say: "Who is interested in politics?" Nobody. "Who is interested in how much the Jersey Live tickets cost this year?" Yes, everybody. So where is the connect there? It is getting the relationship between what happens in their everyday lives to the political system and a lot of them just do not appreciate that. But as a politician that got the vote, successfully took the proposition to get the 16, 17 year-olds the vote, I was amazed going through that process asking schools who wanted me to come in and speak to their young people, 16 to 17 year-olds, I was amazed at the different response in the schools, absolutely amazed.
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
That is something that obviously the department needs to consider. It is not for either John or necessarily Cliff to comment on.
The Deputy of Grouville : Well, it is an issue.
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
Equally, they can guide and they should be able to guide the department as we review the policy.
[11:00]
The Deputy of Grouville :
One thing I would like to ask is as far as the hard-core politics is concerned, who trains the trainers?
Head of Personal and Social Education, Les Quennevais School:
Within Les Quennevais school it is my responsibility to make sure that my staff are able to deliver every aspect of the curriculum, whether it is sex education, drugs education or the citizenship strand.
The Deputy of Grouville :
But Les Quennevais, you are obviously very au fait with local political ... being a local person, but other schools, how does it work? Are you trained?
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
Exactly the same. I think all the colleagues who are heads of P.S.H.E. have an experience and understanding that would reflect John's.
The Deputy of Grouville :
They all know about the local political system?
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges: Yes, all our heads of P.S.H.E. ... it is a strength.
Head of Personal and Social Education, Les Quennevais School: It is an issue. I do have to train my staff to know the different ...
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
Just a simple point, I think you know this, Deputy Labey , from when you were Assistant Minister, our new staff when we induct them ... because quite a few of them are not from the Island, the documentation that is in John's review in terms of knowing Jersey, we ensure all our new staff understand the local history, in other words, because there is an induction into this system. Quite likely those teachers in time will end up as P.S.H.E. teachers so the point you make about professional development for those colleagues is very important.
The Deputy of Grouville :
But it is one thing giving them documentation, it is another getting them to pick up the phone, never mind the students, getting them to pick up the phone to the politicians to invite them into the schools.
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
Well, that would be done through the head of P.S.H.E., not individual teachers.
The Deputy of Grouville :
Why does it only happen with one or 2 schools?
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges: All schools invite politicians in.
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: The invitations you will need, Carolyn, rather than ...
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges: Frequency is an issue but all schools do invite politicians.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Okay, I am going to have to ...
Deputy S. Pitman: Can I just ...
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Is it supplementary, Shona?
Deputy S. Pitman:
Sort of, the initial question I do not feel was answered on what improvements will the department be making for the next elections? Mr. Renouf has mentioned the access to politicians and the problem with that for young people and that is something that needs to be looked at and you said from the last hustings at Hautlieu lessons need to be learned. Could you say what improvements you will be making for the next elections?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
I think we are and will be keeping a relatively open mind. Clearly we know that you are carrying out this particular review. You have perhaps raised an issue that was not necessarily one of the department's priorities at this moment in time but it is certainly worth considering and reviewing. It fits in with our P.S.H.E. so we will consider and reflect on the experience of the last elections in 2008 and at the same time we will look obviously to any findings or recommendations that you may make to see whether or not we can improve the ability to meet the needs of our young people. That is our aim. It is not just to instruct.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Sorry, Minister, I mean I can put a line through my own comment, but there was a feeling that you were over cautious and people were almost frightened that political indoctrination was going to occur rather than political education and the hope is that somehow, I mean we cannot ask for special favours, you are absolutely right, but the hope was that you could capitalise on all the good work that people like Mr. Renouf have done. I have to say you are quite right, adults as much as young people say: "I cannot make sense of this personality politics system" and a lot of people say: "If it was organised" and I will get into deep trouble with my colleague here: "If it was organised along party political lines I would make more sense of it." Well, that is the kind of home I came from where we used to toss about issues in that way. It is a difficult one to crack when you are running on an individual personality system. That is what seems to confuse people. Okay, we are nearing the end. Not the total end. I am going to ask my colleagues ... we still have a few to ask but I rather suspect we are going to have to revisit questions, particularly monitoring. You have had a very good explanation but one that raised as many questions as answers, so I am going to ask each of the colleagues if they would like to ask their wrap-up question, if there are still one or 2 left.
Deputy S. Pitman:
I have 2 important questions to ask.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay, we can of course call witnesses back but do you want to ...?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
We are quite happy to answer any questions in writing if we cannot now.
The Deputy of Grouville :
I would just like to ask ... it is not on the list, does that matter?
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Oh, I would prefer if it was on the list.
The Deputy of Grouville :
I think I have asked most of them.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay, if we go to Shona then we will see if we have a minute or 2.
Deputy S. Pitman:
A couple of things. Firstly, having looked through the information pack that you gave us I did not see any evidence of modern, local political history. What I saw was how we started off with France and the King, so I did not see anything about modern history. The other issue was, and I do not know if you will be able to answer it now, is how much time is spent for a young person in a young person's year at school on this subject?
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
Can I do the second one first, because that is a really important question?
Deputy S. Pitman:
I ask because as you know I did some research a couple of years ago and I know that teachers were frustrated in that they did not feel they had enough time for the important issues.
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
That is a really important question you ask. It puts everything in perspective, Deputy Pitman, I think in terms of this topic. A 25-hour week, a 39-week year and all the other curriculum areas which are core, which are examinable, within every school P.S.H.E. is allocated one period a week, that is in line with national expectations in terms of law in England, and our Jersey curriculum mirrors to the most part the national curriculum in the U.K. (United Kingdom). Within that one period a week, as the Minister has explained, there are 4 strands.
One of those strands is citizenship and part of one of those strands is the political aspects we have talked about today. So the really important point to make there are the points that John and the Minister have put forward, and that is you have specified curriculum time for this topic but detailed within this document, and when you see the school documents as an example, are all the other activities that go on in the school day, the school term, the school year, round about some of the examples John gave you about being active citizens. So, okay, there is the designated curriculum time but there are all these other things that go on in school life that enable those young boys and girls to learn about being active citizens. So if we look at actual time commitment it is a small part of the 25-hour week but when you look at all the other activities involved in school life there are opportunities for assemblies, form time, through people coming in, through how they run their school day, how they run their school councils, school playground friends, you name it, there are countless examples of it being a practical activity during the school week as well.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Just very quickly, I know you have a very short time with regards to delivering this aspect of education, things like the history of politics in Jersey, is that something you could put into another curriculum? Say the history curriculum?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
This is a particular subject that I am quite interested in because in discussing and looking at all sorts of various, different topics and issues relating to our heritage and culture I became aware that in the Isle of Man they have made quite considerable efforts to include their local history and elements of it within the G.C.S.E. (General Certificate of Secondary Education) syllabus. I have raised this matter, because I happen to be on the Consultative Curriculum Council, and as part of the review we are looking to learn from and copy some of the benefit that the Isle of Man has seen in further improving and developing the local identity. I think that is a really positive step and it will pick up, I believe, maybe not every aspect of our modern local history but certainly the relevant points and perhaps by doing that we can encourage our students to look further and to explore other areas that surround those events.
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
Can I just respond with one more thing? It answers one part of your question, not the second; we are about to launch an excellent resource for our primary schools which is the local history strand which will be within the history curriculum rather than P.S.H.E. but you made a very good point about the issue of modern local history and that is a very good point. John, would you like to add to that?
Head of Personal and Social Education, Les Quennevais School: I was only going to ask what you have in mind.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Well, there was nothing but to me I noticed because of my personal involvement with my political party I am aware of the Jersey Democratic Movement, the Communist Party, what took place during the occupation and after that and how those ... you know, there are lots of issues and how our government developed or evolved to where it is today. Why do we have Deputies, why do we have Constables, why have we got Senators?
Head of Personal and Social Education, Les Quennevais School:
Certainly I teach in an 11-16 school where I am very conscious of having to tailor things to the emotional and intellectual development of the people and I think you are talking about almost degree level. Fascinated though I am too, I am not sure that I could ... I certainly could not squeeze that into my 11-16 curriculum. It might be something that ...
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
That is a very interesting question. We discussed this before you came in because there has been a report apparently saying that British history is absolutely full of the rise and fall of the Nazi Party and that is all British youngsters of a certain age get taught. We were wondering if the occupation type of history here mirrored that in Jersey schools, there was more than the occupation in other words.
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges: Do you want to look at the history curriculum next?
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Well, we might have to. Anyway, I will let Deputy Labey , who I so cruelly cut off in her prime, do you have a quick one?
The Deputy of Grouville :
Yes, it probably just requires a yes or a no. Just as it would be really useful for 16 year-olds to be handed out social security forms so that they can complete those forms for their cards and medical cards, do schools do that and how would they feel about handing out voter registration forms to the year 12s for the 16-17 year-olds to register?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
I would not necessarily support that idea because we are talking about again equality in provision for all individuals within our society and I do not believe that students should be treated any differently, whatever their age may be, to any other voter. They need to be educated in the fact that there is a requirement to register in the same way ... and again we give notice to the public that that happens. We have families ... and information comes through the parish halls to the home address where the families are required to identify members of the household and who is able to vote. There is responsibility for the individual to take .... which we and our citizenship programme and curriculum is designed to do, to encourage the individual student to take responsibility for his or her actions. It is not to force-feed ...
The Deputy of Grouville :
You are not forcing. You are handing out a form.
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
... or to necessarily make them do something that they otherwise might choose not to do.
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
Could I just support your statement? What we did do, Deputy Labey , and you are aware because you okayed this in your time as Assistant Minister, with the information we gave through the electronic link where the form was available. There were some practical difficulties as well in terms of when their birthday was, parish halls receiving bulk application forms as well as all the important points the Minister made. So the best solution we found at that time, if you remember, was to give them the information, to give them an electronic link where they could download the form themselves and then go through the process.
The Deputy of Grouville :
Well that was the best solution because Senator Vibert did not want the forms in the schools but I am saying what is wrong with handing out social security forms, you can register now; voting forms, you can register now? Nobody is forcing them to do anything. They can put it straight in the bin on their way out of the classroom.
Head of Personal and Social Education, Les Quennevais School:
My secondment was sort of active ... I did not include everything that I wanted to write about that I had achieved. One thing I had wanted to do would be to visit each department to find out how they could help within the schools because I think in some parts of Australia in particular it is a requirement of every state department, government arm, does spend some of their time working with young people in schools. There are things that are very difficult for me to engage young people with in the classroom. Social security is one of them, important though it is, and housing too.
[11:15]
I have, through Les Quennevais school, been back to Housing and said can we have worked on some scenarios to give to young people. Just working out, are you going to be able to buy a house in a couple of years' time, assuming you can afford to buy a house, obviously. One thing that I would have liked to achieve would be perhaps a special event whereby all of the States departments can have interactive workshops with young people, and that is something that all young people on the Island are taken to. That could involve everything to do with housing, with social security. It is done where they are getting the experience direct from the practitioners. There is also kind of recruitment, careers element could be thrown into that as well in terms of jobs available. But that is something we are constantly revising and working on and there might be ways to achieve it.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Thank you, I will put a line under it now but clearly there are, as I said - as the song says - there are more questions than answers sometimes. I thank you all very much for coming. It has given us considerable food for thought, I thank my co-questioners. We may well be coming back to you and we have to discuss this issue of how students are going to be involved so I do not know if you have time maybe we could meet for a quick informal meeting for a lunch hour, next week.
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
You will get the questionnaire responses first. Once you have the questionnaire responses then you will ... I have missed a trick here I think in terms of what you want.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
It is a question of observing the process at work perhaps. We want to see ...
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
In the first instance maybe just write to the department.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
We have.
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
Perhaps being more specific on certain areas that you would like.
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
For example there was the recent work that - I am going to rack my brains here - was to do with work, the employment book, and they want to do some consultation there and they had their questionnaire but beyond that we arranged for them to have some consultation groups so there is different ages, different types, different areas of community, so you met with a handful of pupils from this area, this area, this area, and they did it that way, took a stratified sample of young people to pick their brains.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Well, we can discuss the best way of doing it then. Okay, I would like to thank you all very much.
Deputy S. Pitman: Can I just ask ...
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Oh, one more.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Just to get some further information from us, in the curriculum there was something about giving D.V.D.s (digital versatile disc) that you provide to the young people about political education and history and stuff. I wonder if we could have copies of them?
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges:
There was a set in the ... is there a set in that one, at the back? Do you have yours there? It is not a problem. With all the school ones they are all online. You know we gave you the web address in that curriculum document as well, all the resources, they are all loaded online on the web link we gave you.
Deputy S. Pitman: All those D.V.D.s?
Business Manager of the Schools and Colleges: There are 3 D.V.D.s, yes.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay, that is excellent. Thank you very much. I apologise for the slight delay. We will have a break until 11.30 a.m. Again, thank you very much for attending.
[11:18]