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STATES OF JERSEY
Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Political Education Review
WEDNESDAY, 19th MAY 2010
Panel:
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour (Chairman) Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier
Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville
Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade
Witnesses:
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School Business Manager Schools and Colleges
Also present:
Mrs. E. Liddiard (Scrutiny Officer)
[16.32]
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour (Chairman): Okay, let us roll. Have you got all your presents out?
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
You gave me a shopping list last time I was here.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Yes, I know. I know. Okay, I would very much like to welcome you to the hearing. We formally remind witnesses that you do have the benefit of privilege in this hearing, in other words you will not be sued for what you say on the assumption that you are saying the truth. So that is the formal part out of it. We will now introduce ourselves. I am Roy Le Hérissier, the Chairman of the Education and Home Affairs Panel of St. Saviour .
Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville : Carolyn Labey , Deputy of Grouville .
Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :
I am Montfort Tadier , Deputy from St. Brelade.
Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier : Deputy Shona Pitman of St. Helier . Business Manager Schools and Colleges: Business Manager Schools and Colleges.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
Head of P.S.H.E. (Personal, Social and Health Education) at Jersey College for Girls.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: Head of P.S.E. Careers at Le Rocquier School.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Thank you very much indeed, and thank you very much for coming. As you can see from the questions, we are going to try and work through them all but we realise ...
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: I have to be back at school ...
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
You have to leave at 5.30 p.m., yes?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: Yes, I have to be back at school for 6.30 p.m., changed and ready.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay, so we will obviously try and move them fairly quickly and in any case we did promise you the session would end at approximately - approximately being the operative word - 5.30 p.m. So let us kick off straight away then, in your view has to the approach to political education differ between the primary and secondary sectors?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
It will have to be Cliff to answer that one because we do not have an awful lot of experience with primary school.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
Deputy , last time we came we showed you the overall curriculum of the P.S.H.E. and we also showed you the report that John Renouf wrote in 2006 around about P.S.H.E. and in particular the citizenship aspect and how we are very, very keen. So in terms of style of approach there is commonality, the curriculum document dictates content delivery across the 2 phases and what I can leave you today as well, because you asked and it will give you the information, is the total curriculum documentation for Les Quennevais School and also the primary guidance document and the citizenship aspect of St. Luke's Primary School, because you wanted to see a primary, a secondary and how that fits in.
Female Speaker:
Sorry to interrupt, there is a problem with the recording so we just have to pause.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Do we start the whole thing, again, Linda?
Female Speaker:
I think you will have to, I am so sorry, I do not know what has happened. I am just going to stop ... I have got you talking still, Chairman.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: That is okay, we now know ...
Female Speaker:
You are fine to go. Just to carry on.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay, if you would continue your excellent overview on the differences between primary and secondary sectors.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
So in summary what I said before is that you have ... last time we met you received the P.S.H.E. curriculum document, which was the guidance document, which was the statutory part that gave you the overview of primary/secondary delivery. You also received the report that in 2006 talked about aspects of citizenship and the philosophy of how we wanted that delivered, and I promised I would bring back to you an example of a primary school P.S.H.E. curriculum which involved the aspects you were interested in but also a secondary school P.S.H.E. curriculum and again including the citizen aspects which you are interested in. So, in terms of approach the same, in terms of content delivery different because of the different phases and what you will be able to see through is how it builds. In terms of the citizenship if you think about foundation stage, what would they be doing in nursery and reception around about respect ... they do demonstrate citizenship aspect in the foundation stage all the way through to per 16.
Deputy M. Tadier :
You said the approach is consistent. What is the overall approach?
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
The overall approach, Deputy , is promoting active citizenship, so in other words an example is the Year 5 States visit, not just visiting and watching and listening but being part of it. So active learning. There has been a number of examples this last couple of weeks of voting in school for school prefect, voting in school for school councils. So what we said last time was that the actual P.S.H.E. curriculum is one- twenty-fifth of their experience in a year. The citizenship part is one quarter of that. So it is really important around other aspects of the school life that they have opportunities to be active citizens.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Okay, I think you have answered that. Can I cut to one of the underlying questions we have been asking everyone? I am glad you have talked about the approach and interactive method that you are trying to encourage. How far does that extend to interacting with politicians in the schools, is there enough of that going on and what are the pitfalls and benefits of having access?
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
Huge benefits. Huge benefits. There were 2 Deputies in just before us and they have been in quite frequently and are really enjoying it. As far as we are concerned as a department we leave that - as I think we mentioned last time - down to the heads of P.S.H.E. to invite in when it is appropriate. There may be a particular topic, I think we may have said last time there may be something they are discussing that is appropriate then to bring in a member of either Ministry or part of the Scrutiny. There are other politicians, especially around the parish ... the parish primaries see their Deputies quite frequently and certain school see other politicians quite frequently. But it is down to the heads of P.S.H.E. to invite those people into the school, does that sound true?
The Deputy of Grouville :
What do you mean by quite frequently?
Business Manager Schools and Colleges: It depends which school.
The Deputy of Grouville : So it is totally inconsistent?
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
It is the role of the head of P.S.H.E. to invite politicians into the school. We have put no barriers, there are absolutely no barriers in the department for politicians to take part, to participate in the school curriculum. We give the responsibility of that involvement down to the head teacher and the head of P.S.H.E.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Does that work? We have got 2 heads of P.S.H.E. here, is that generally okay?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
I certainly would invite people in more often but it comes to the crunch when I have got 200 students in a year group and we require that Deputy to come in 8 times if I have 8 groups, because it is much better to work in a small group situation when they have got the opportunity to discuss ideas. When we have had Scrutiny in to do those, those have been ideal because we have had 8 people in and we have been able to work in groups and they have been able to put forward their ideas to students and have some direct ...
The Deputy of Grouville :
So why can you not invite 8 different people across the year?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: Because in delivering P.S.E, I ... personally in our school we deliver right across the board. Some schools do it in modular but I teach right across the board so at the moment for instances we have been doing with Year 11, just before they go, talking about voting, why vote, and the we talk about pensions and things like that. So there is 7 or 8 groups going at the same time and it would be difficult ... I mean it is not that I would not want to but finding 8 people to come in in one foul swoop is a bit difficult and I cannot do on a revolving programme for 8 weeks because then we meet
different deadlines, so we are doing exam preparation or something like that. For me, it is a numbers issue.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Can I just get this clear then, the head of P.S.H.E. they do not have to go through the Education Department to invite a politician?
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
No, certainly not. I would have thought through courtesy you would discuss it with your head teacher if you were inviting politicians to speak.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls: Yes, whenever we are doing it so they are aware of what is going on, yes.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
We are not informed either, so if a school does invite ... a head teacher is not required to inform the department or the Minister that the politician is going into school. We do not get involved with at that level.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Susan, what about your use of politicians?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
Yes, a bit similar. I mean it could be properly more consistent. We have tried to have them in for each group in each year. I do it quite a lot with Year 8, at the moment they do a big module on politics and we come to the States and then they have a piece of work on it. I put the onus on them ... every year we review what we do and we do it differently and some years we have more politicians in than others. Last time I got them to make their own T.V. (television) documentary and the onus was on them to go and interview their own parish Deputies. So that is just an outline and that seemed to work quite well. We would welcome inviting more politicians in on a more regular basis definitely.
The Deputy of Grouville :
Does political education - this is more to Cliff really - differ with the heads of P.S.H.E., dependent on whether that head is a local person?
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
Head teacher or head of P.S.H.E., no. Not that I am aware of. We regularly assess P.S.H.E. and if I am not saying the right thing I will allow these 2 colleagues to put me right, but in terms of the system aspect of it, it is an agreed way forward and so all of the heads of P.S.H.E., and I am trying to think who were local and who were not. More are local than are not.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: I think all of us are local bar 2.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges: Haute Vallee.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: Yes. Two or 3.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
Yes, so ... and in fact those 2 or 3 are very enthusiastic and very active in terms of the local aspects.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
The last time we had an update, when John was in post with you, we went and we had ... he went through all the changes and updated all the paperwork for us so that all we do now is change the names of the Deputies and update and change whatever activities we do. In years past we used to meet, when Ethel Southern was head of ... and then Mick Foley was teaching at De La Salle and he was hugely knowledgeable and shared that. Some of us are still teaching now that worked with him and he shared a lot of his knowledge with us.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
We update ... we keep updated on the V.L.E. (Virtual Learning Environment) the information around about which Deputies and Senators are on which committees so at any point there is a piece of work they go straight to V.L.E. and it is up to date information. So even the hard copy you had recently, it may well have changed on our V.L.E. now because Jenny Sweeney, my P.A. (personal assistant) will update all the time and just keeps track of what the changes are, makes the changes so the schools have got up to date information. But in terms of participation, with getting bulk politicians together ... so, for example, we are planning now for this year's Year 10 Scrutiny exercise and I think everybody participated the last 2 years, when we try and get 7 or 8 together for a morning it is very, very difficult because of the work commitments and the activities people ...
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Yes, we found that.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
Scrutiny colleagues work very hard to try and get everybody together but we still have late notice sort of cover folk so it is quite challenging to get that many politicians together at one time.
[16:45]
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay, thank you. We will try and get back on track although we will discover as we go through the questions in fact a lot get answered under the guise of other questions. Do you want to take number 2, Carolyn.
The Deputy of Grouville :
It has been answered, more or less.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Okay, let us then go to ... I can give you the percentage.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Deputy Tadier can take number 3 then.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Do you want to take number 3, Carolyn, because I have been talking too much?
The Deputy of Grouville :
Okay, how is political education prioritised against other subjects and how do you think it is compared to the other subjects.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: Well we have to work within 4 to 5 strands of the P.S.H.E. curriculum so we have to give them all equal footing. So we devote a little bit of time every year but remember we are producing global citizens so apart from the local politics we have to include a bit of everything else at the same time. More to it, we try and include in the day-to- day life of the school so we have a school council and they vote ... they take the opinions of their classmates to the school council and discuss different ideas, and they have got a budget and they decide where they are going to spend it. Sometimes they look at global issues, sometimes they look at local ones. In years past a lot of our students were involved with Clos du Roncier and trying to turn it around and upgrade it. We had students there who worked on the panel. So wherever we can we try and get them involved. Certainly I think recently we have done our prefects, so our head boy and our head girl put forward their mandate to the whole school and we have made a real effort to make sure that the students register and then cast their vote as if they were in a polling booth. So because we are so constricted by time within the lessons and perhaps we could do more if we had the time, we take it out to form time and we take it out to the whole school working together.
The Deputy of Grouville :
When your students leave school would it be fair to say that they know how to vote and the importance of voting?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: Yes. This is what we have been discussing in the last few weeks. You have got the vote at 16 whereas so few other people across the world get that vote, and if you want to change things you have got to vote because if you do not vote you cannot complain about how Jersey is run. You have not had any chance or you have not take a position and voted for somebody you feel could make the changes that you want.
Deputy S. Pitman:
You have just spoken of your prefects ...
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: Head boy and head girl.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Yes, and also the school council, could you tell me when those were implemented?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: That has been going for a long time. More than 5 years.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls: Yes, ours has as well.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Right. You mentioned about you have not got time to teach politics ...
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: More politics.
Deputy S. Pitman:
More politics, yes. What areas in politics would you need more time on and what areas in the curriculum, the P.S.E. curriculum, do you think you could do less of to allow more time on politics.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: That is difficult because you work on a year to year basis so if something crops up ... because we have got so much to fit in an hour a week we try and balance so we try and give equal footing to each subject. So sometimes there will be something that crops up and we will try and squeeze that in which means that something else has to go by the board. So sometimes we will get information from you, say for the Year 10 Scrutiny, and we will change our programme around to fit it in, so we can include some more that we had not done before. But it is difficult, I am not saying it is not, because within an hour you have so much to do with every year group. But if I am stuck I will ask the form teachers to do something, your R.S.(?) will sometimes take on some aspects of why voting and law making perhaps. We get Prison? Me? No Way!, we cover a lot to do with the law in there. So we get days when we can focus on one thing. We try many different ways to sort of enlarge what our programme is without encroaching too much on other subjects that are exam based. They will say to me: "I cannot give up this time we have got an exam coming up so you are going to have to take back half an hour from here or half an hour from there."
Deputy S. Pitman:
Do you feel that there could be more room for local politics as opposed to U.K. (United Kingdom) or international politics?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
We do not touch usually on U.K., we only do it as a comparison, so we talk about the U.K. politics, they work within parties but here there is far less of that and people stand for their own mandate and different things like that. So we used to do more and we have cut it down because it was not relevant.
Deputy M. Tadier :
But many of your students will be ending up the U.K. either for a short period of time or extended periods of work, because we know that a lot of students do not come directly back. I think we touched on it earlier, there is probably an incentive to teach global politics and the basic principles. Obviously things like voting will be
transferable anyway to the U.K. Is it an issue the fact that many students may not be in Jersey for 5, 10, 15 years after they leave school or is it difficult to gauge ...
Business Manager Schools and Colleges: Susan has post 16s.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
Yes, I think it is in terms of voting at 16 and voting later. When we have had discussions they have said: "Oh well, I am going off to the U.K. I will be more interested in voting over there." We have made a big discussion about women and the position of women and how hard it was for the women to get the vote and then they have looked at comparative systems around the world, particularly like last year and the year before when you were getting the vote at 16, so they got very interested in that. At the moment they are very interested in British politics because with the general election, and I think you have to tap in to what is going on. Last year they were really interested in American politics because of Barack Obama. So you try and tap into all of those interests as well. But, yes, there is an issue, certainly from our post 16 point of view as well, we have got overload. I am not directly responsible for that but speaking to the head of sixth form and the head of the enrichment programme, obviously they do cover it, they have the head girl, the deputy head girl, the leadership team. In terms of the local system, they will get somebody in to talk about social security and various things but the programme that we used to have in the days of general studies, now the curriculum is so overloaded with their A.S. (advanced subsidiary) levels, they are all doing community service, they do music, they do sports. One of the deputy heads of sixth form did a piece of work for her degree last year on it and she did surveys and they had a real review of the programme and one of the issues that came out was some of the students were just completely overloaded and so, in a way, I think the political aspects have had a squeeze because of that. But obviously through the form time it is covered, particularly in election years.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Okay.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Can I just follow up in that context? I think that is very useful. Is it more useful to talk about politics in the global sense about issues than later on to look at the voting systems as an application of it or to start off with the voting system, the Jersey system, and then try and talk about issues later?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
I think it is in parallel in some ways. Through other subjects, English, they are debating things like should Guernsey send its waste? I was speaking to some of the English teachers ... so all of the issues that are relevant to them, but I still think there is a role to keep revisiting what the systems are in various places.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
We all raise money for different charities so they look to the reasons why and what you should do with the money. Do you give them something, give people money to buy things or do you provide money for water? We have been doing a lot of work on that and then we talk about the local, about Bellozanne and the recycling. So we interlink lots and lots of different things. But they see themselves as global citizens, they are not just Jersey citizens, they look around the world. We are an international school so we have got links with schools all around the world and they do ask about things and how they are ... you know, and here education is free and we have been talking about Ghana where they have to pay for their education, where do they get their money from? Would you have a snail farm so that you could pay for your uniform and go to school? "No, I do not want to come to school." But these children do.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
As a really good example of the charity aspect, last year we were approached by Polio Plus, as a department, and I said that children in schools decide where their charity money is going to so I said: "Write to the schools and ask for your charity to be considered by the young people as they raise the money because they decide where they are going to put their money." It is huge, it is very powerful.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Good. Sorry, I am the ringmaster so I always come back to the boring sequence of questions. We have done number 4 which is comparison ... well, not done it but we have touched on number 4 so we may revisit it. I wonder if I can come to number 5 where we had some comments from the Deputies based around the notion: "If it is not assessed it is not taken seriously" type approach. How do you measure the success of your programme?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
My department is reviewed every 2 years, once every 2 years it is internally reviewed by the senior management and then the next time it is reviewed externally. We looked into the P.S.E. citizenship type examination but if we did that there is no local politics on it at all and it would mean that we would be ... we would have to live within the constraints of that curriculum and not be able to come out and do more local politics. So we decided against it. So really have to go by people reviewing and looking at it because I know it is easy to become jaded and to get into a rut because you have been doing it for so long, which is why people come in and look to see what we are doing. So we have to depend on them really to see what the balance is and if they make suggestions about how it would change or improve.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
But if you can get genuine ... and I do not mean this disparagingly but how do you ensure that you get valid student feedback on the course?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
I had a student committee, and I will need to do this again next year, who looked at assessment and they came up with their own assessment tools so we trialled it and we have changed it. So we have an assessment tool that we do at the end of every year and their comment about what we have done and how we could improve and what they would like to do. So the students came up with the assessment tool for P.S.E. Careers.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
What was found out on their most recent attempt?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: They do not grade, what the students decided was they would comment on what they learnt, so they had what they learnt in each topic and what they felt they needed to learn they would put at the bottom. Then they put a self-assessment, how much effort they made and how much time they put into learning. So that is what they came up with and we stuck with that because it means that they felt that they have had an input into what I do the next year so they make suggestions and say: "You missed out this or during our group discussion we felt we needed to learn that" so I would then look at my programme and tweak it if I felt it was necessary, and very often they have got a good point. Sometimes we go off track anyway. You know what it is like, you start a discussion and then somebody says this, that and the other and off you go on something else and discuss that.
The Deputy of Grouville :
What would you say about a criticism from a Year 9 student that all they do is homework in P.S.H.E.?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: Well they certainly do not do homework in my lesson.
Deputy S. Pitman:
I understand that in other subjects they - for example, history - touch on local politics and there is an exam, I do not really understand why that cannot be done with P.S.E.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
What, an exam? I am not quite sure ... in history? Sorry, can you repeat what you said, please?
Deputy S. Pitman:
You said that history is examined, is it not?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls: Yes.
Deputy S. Pitman:
And it is taken as a G.C.S.E. (General Certificate of Secondary Education), and in that subject you learn ... there is some stuff on local history, why then can that not be done for P.S.E.?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
In the citizenship boards in the U.K. they ... we looked at some of the boards that did and we did not like their course because it looked very dry. There was talk a couple of years ago of them including a local module but it never really got any further, and to be honest again they are so overloaded with other things that we did not go any further with it because we felt that it was something that was better done but ...
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: My premise has always been that we have ... being an 11 to 16 school, we have got a huge, vast range of ability and our lessons are not really terribly writing based. We promote discussion, we promote listening skills, putting forward your ideas to others and every child has an equal footing in my classroom, and not just mine, right across board within P.S.E. If there is more writing you are going to turn some of the students off. They want to come to our lessons because they are given a chance to express their point of view, and if they want to learn something they will say to you: "You have not said anything about this, can you explain, can you find out?" I am not always going to know the answer but it means that I will then have to go and find out from someone else the answer.
[17:00]
I think if we were to introduce an exam based curriculum for P.S.E. you are going to turn off more students whereas now, at the moment, they are keen to come to lessons, they are eager and they know no matter what their ability they have a got a chance to express themselves.
Deputy S. Pitman:
So it is not just primarily focused on facts, it is about ...
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: There are facts. I am not saying there are not facts, but also ... we follow the facts and then we discuss.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Is there a halfway house, though, between ... I can see both sides of the argument for not having a formal exam, it is good because it is a breath of fresh air people want to come to the lesson but on the other hand it would be good to have a way, an incentive, a carrot if you like, to say: "Well you have done a course, you have attended, you have contributed, here is a certificate" which may, for example, be you can pass with distinction or merit, et cetera. Is that worth looking into?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
It might be, yes, in terms of the local politics or the citizenship aspects of it. Like we do the first aid as a module so they get a certificate for the young first aider.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: But remember the first aider is not examined as such, it is continually assessed. So ...
Deputy M. Tadier :
It is a 3 star award, is it?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: They have changed it now, it used to be one, 2 and 3 so now it is an open one, and then they get tick boxes at the back. So if they know how to deal with somebody who is bleeding you tick the box. But if we did continual assessment that would also be quite good, and their contribution to classroom discussion and how many facts they knew, we could perhaps do that.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
We grade ours sort of like half-termly and they have periodic reports and certainly at key stage 3 we do it for P.S.E. citizenship as well. Key stage 4 it is more difficult because we have slightly restricted time within the lessons and they have their assembly time and their tutorial time. But we certainly do that and we write them reports and we have certain pieces of ... certain assignments during the term that are assessed by the teacher, others peer assessed.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Susan, are you doing I.B. (International Baccalaureate)?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
We are starting it, we are going to start it next year. We are not currently doing it but we are looking into it with the ...
Deputy M. Tadier :
Do you think that will be more conducive to the kind of thing ...
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls: It might well, yes, it might well.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Yes, that is a useful one. How do you measure the success or otherwise of your programme?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
We assess through peer assessment, I do feedback sheets at the end of the year, we have our periodic reports and our grading system every term and then we write reports.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Is there anything ... I suppose what I was also trying to get at is what were the results of these mechanisms that you use? What are the students telling you about the teaching and the course?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls: They vary tremendously.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
I do not want to push you, is there any generalisation you can make about their approach to it?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
I know a lot of them were quite shocked about the States sitting and the behaviour of the States Members.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Really. [Laughter]
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls: That they were eating and talking on their mobile phones. There were quite a lot of comments about that. But, you know, it varies. Some of them really, really enjoy the project work, others do not enjoy it so much. But at least I felt it was good because it got a reaction from them and it made them think and start thinking about it, and then we can talk about behaviour and forums and what is important in terms of ...
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
We have had this ongoing discussion in this Scrutiny about teaching people the institutional side and Jersey is a rather unusual situation, the 3 types of Members and all that sort of stuff. How do you find they react to that? How do you find that is most effectively put across to them?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
Well I think it is when they find it out for themselves and they ... if you look at the little scheme that I have put there for Year 8, we look at a video, we have a discussion, we find out who they know in their parish. We have had Constables in sometimes to talk to them. When they go out and interview people themselves then that is really effective. I mean it is difficult because I think things have changed a lot since we were young and when we went ... we did nothing whatsoever at school, I know we are all different ages, but we talked about it around the kitchen table.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Yes, Deputy Maçon made that point to us when he came.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
It is a very different world and I think as John Renouf said when we were talking about the States, the hustings, and you cannot get a lot of the public to go along, maybe we need to think about changing the format of that. But certainly I think we are open to changing what we do every year and improving it and reviewing it.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: They get more involved when they feel it is something in their parish that is going to affect them, so like the Le Squez houses being boarded up, it does not encourage good behaviour from some people because it looks bleak.
The Deputy of Grouville :
And issues, what I have found when I have been invited to schools is if you bring the issues down to their level, an example I always give is: "Are you happy to pay £10 extra for your Jersey Live?" and they have no idea that is related to politics. So who is there to bring politics down to their level, or make it relevant to them I should say?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
I think it is up to us because we know ... to be fair, from experience we know what is going to set them alight and if you are going to drone on and read lots of pieces of paper, they are not going to listen, they are going to switch off. So you have to say: "If this happened in your parish, what would you do? Who would you go to? How could you change it?"
Deputy M. Tadier :
That is really important, is it not?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: Yes.
The Deputy of Grouville :
Do you think that is consistent - if I can ask Cliff - with other secondary schools?
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
I believe so. Through the meetings I have had with the heads of P.S.H.E., through the work we have done together over the years, my impression is through their work it is consistent. In terms of the way the 2 colleagues say they approach local politics and how they introduce those topics to their year groups, I mean John Renouf said the same thing the last time we met. So that is 3 of your 7. We could have all 7 in here and I am pretty sure they would say the same things.
The Deputy of Grouville :
Well what would you say about the group of students that we interviewed and they said they had not received any political education at all?
Business Manager Schools and Colleges: Be specific and I might be able to answer.
Deputy M. Tadier :
They were not at your schools, to be fair, but we had some in from Hautlieu and some in from De La Salle.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
If you have had them from Hautlieu from my school, they would have done a lot of politics in Year 9 and they do global politics in Year 7 and 8.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges: I am very surprised by Hautlieu students.
Deputy M. Tadier : I am, yes.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Well, we were, yes.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
Because they are very strong in their citizenship area.
The Deputy of Grouville : That is what we thought.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
Their scheme of work is very strong. In fact they involve politicians as much as any other school.
Deputy M. Tadier :
I think there is an element of selective memory, it depends on the particular year group.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges: Yes, I am really surprised by it.
Deputy M. Tadier :
But I think it was more so with De La Salle.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
I am very happy to follow through with Hautlieu, no problem at all, and check that for you.
The Deputy of Grouville :
What about the Catholic schools?
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
The non-provided schools? Our relationship in terms of policy with ... our policies are not applicable to the non-provided schools, however we do invite the heads of P.S.H.E. from the non-provided schools to be part of our professional development.
Deputy S. Pitman:
That is how you keep the consistency across all of the schools?
Business Manager Schools and Colleges: Sorry I did not understand the question.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Well, you say you invite them to your meetings with States P.S.E. teachers, is that how you keep consistency ...
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
No, remember I said last time in terms ... because you asked me last time how do we hold schools accountable and I think both colleagues have come back to it. In terms of heads of P.S.H.E., they are the first point of accountability, they have to ensure the effectiveness, and you have heard from 2 colleagues how they find that out for themselves. Then the head teacher in the school is then accountable for the monitoring and evaluation of curriculum within the school. So my expectation ... then I said then I am held accountable by the Minister to ensure that the head teacher has done their job and they are sure that the heads of P.S.H.E. have done ... so there is accountability down the way. So my way of checking consistency is holding head teachers, through the professional part of the programme, accountable, i.e. monitoring the curriculum; how are you monitoring and evaluating your curriculum. That is in place, I can guarantee that is in place. Are you holding heads of department to account? Yes, they are. When you ask me about non-provided schools that is out of my remit. However, we give those schools every opportunity to engage and they tend to in terms of all professional development, or all programmes we run and both De Le Salle and Hautlieu use our external consultants to monitor their secondary curriculums and they do that frequently.
Deputy M. Tadier :
But the bottom line is, though, with these non-provided schools - Hautlieu and De La Salle - they can teach not one iota of politics or local politics in their curriculum and you would not be able to do anything about it?
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
They have their own ... they have the power to have their own policies within their own schools.
Deputy M. Tadier :
But there is no assurance?
Deputy S. Pitman:
But they are not accountable to you?
Business Manager Schools and Colleges: They are accountable to ...
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: To a higher authority.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
Yes. They are accountable to us in certain aspects in terms of around health and safety, quality of provision, qualifications of staff, so if you imagine the things that you would expect us to be accountable for in terms of a school existing within our Island, when it comes down to curriculum policy most of it in secondary schools is dictated by external exams. But the questions you have just asked me, if you were to ask me do I know in detail the curriculum at either of those non-provided schools, the answer is that I do not but I do know their heads of P.S.H.E. come to the same meetings with all the others.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: Yes, and they debate with us what we are doing ...
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
I am not trying to avoid the question but that is the honest answer.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
From our point of view consistently it is the sharing ... it is brilliant meeting together because that is when we can discuss what we are going to do and if we can share materials and I find that really useful, and what works.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges: Those colleagues still attend, do they not?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: Yes, oh yes.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges: And they are pretty active.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
Did you find when you came into our schools for Scrutiny that the youngsters are very confident in ...
The Deputy of Grouville : Yes, yes.
Deputy S. Pitman:
So basically then when it comes to what is taught in the curriculum they are not accountable to you?
Business Manager Schools and Colleges: In non-provided schools?
Deputy S. Pitman: Yes.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
They are accountable, as I said, to their own heads of department, their own head teachers and their parents. The parents of the school.
Deputy S. Pitman: There is no regulation ...
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
No, no, no, no. The high level ... we are accountable as an education department to register the non-provided schools and it is in law, so you can visit the law in terms of what we are accountable for. So we ensure, through the law, that we engage with the non-provided schools at the appropriate levels. What I am saying very clearly is that those schools are entitled to have their own policies. But the majority of their policies, especially around curriculum are dictated by external examinations so you would find they are pretty similar, if not the same, as all the other schools.
Deputy M. Tadier :
I think our concern, as politicians is that at the end of the day, at 18 or 16 when students leave the Catholic schools, they may well know how to go through the process for a catechism but when it comes to voting they may not have the first idea.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges: I think that might be a tad unfair.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
To be fair to De La Salle, Nick Foley who used to be there, and he is still their examinations officer, is one of the most knowledgeable teachers on local politics out.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
Those 2 heads of P.S.H.E. attend all our meetings. They come to every head of P.S.H.E. meeting.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
It does raise a broader issue but I am not sure this is the panel on which ... we did allude to it this morning ...
Business Manager Schools and Colleges: To me, with due respect, it is not.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: No.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
In terms of challenging what is going on in non-provided schools, this is not the forum, is it?
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
No, no, but it does raise other policy issues but this is not the forum to do it.
Deputy M. Tadier :
I think it is a valid consideration.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Do you want to wrap up that then, Shona? Then I will try and get back to the questions.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Yes, I just wanted to ask a question, well firstly, you have 15 minutes left, do you?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: Yes, I have to go back to school.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Okay, it was just about the consistency in assessing what you are all doing. Could I ask how regular are those meetings?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: We have termly meetings.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
Which, to be fair, to bring heads of department out of school is pretty regular, and we do that for every subject.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
That will deal with the sixth question, who devises and updates the programme. You yourselves do, that meeting is one of the valuable means by which you do it and at the moment the template you are using, certainly at the secondary level, is the report produced by ...
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: The Jersey curriculum, yes.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ... reconnecting that report.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
You have got the Jersey curriculum document and then you had the report that John Renouf ... that aspect of P.S.H.E. curriculum was around the citizenship aspect which we felt, quite rightly at the time, I think, the Minister of the time, and the ministerial team at the time - and obviously Deputy Labey being one of them - held us to account around about the quality of our citizenship curriculum and it was a 2 year piece of work and pretty widely consulted. We were held to account to implement the changes, and the review, as you know, is going on ... the colleagues are working on reviewing what we put in place 4 years ago now.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
We partly covered it but I wonder if I could ask Deputy Tadier to do number 7.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Yes, who monitors the programme to ensure that all children, when they leave school, know how the Island is run?
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
I think we have answered ... is there any aspect of the answer you have had that you want to follow up on, because both teachers have ...
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Sorry, just to pre-empt, one of the underlying themes about all our hearings has been the complexity of Jersey and how it is run, and having traditionally apparently people having learnt their politics at the kitchen table it is no longer transmitted in that way any more. So how do you make sure that when people leave school they can be active citizens, should they wish to be?
[17:15]
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
I believe it is living in a democracy, and the other thing is we have got students of all different nationalities in the school and they bring different experiences so we are trying to standardise that as well.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Maybe if I turn it on an angle, and I did touch on it before, and maybe you can say if you agree with this statement but I think because the Jersey system is so complex, even for adults who maybe should know how it works and who do not, it is more important to teach political issues ... you know, you talked about the role of women in politics, talked about the environment, talked about the cost of buses, et cetera. You get the initial interest and then once they are hooked so that they have got lots to talk about, you know children are just as political as anyone else, then say this is the way you can enact your wishes and effect change, not just through voting but through the whole scrutiny process, through the consultation processes. Would you agree with that? Is that the best way to do it?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: Yes, I think it is.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Is that what does happen?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls: Yes, more or less, yes.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Because I think there is a risk of once solely teachers say this is the Constable, this is the Deputy ...
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: I think you have still got to do that.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls: You have still got to do that as well, I think.
Deputy M. Tadier :
I think you do but I think the timing is critical.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls: Yes it is, yes.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
In Year 9 I teach them about what a Deputy is, what a Senator is, how often ... I mean the one thing that really ... who can vote, how long do you have to be on the Island, where have you been and that is quite confusing for me. So I do not know how they understand it. But they do understand that you cannot vote if you are in prison or if you have been indebt but then you have still got to explain why you cannot stand for election if you have been in debt. It is all those complexities that, for me, sometimes I get ... I stop and start again just to make sure that they are clear.
Deputy M. Tadier :
To take that one step further, would you also then look at the critical analysis and the questioning of why is this system like it is, should be different and, if so ...
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
Yes, and I think as you are going ... it almost partly drip feed but partly that cyclical curriculum, so what you would do ... well, they do a primary school to start, then maybe, as I say, we revisit in Year 8 and then again in Year 10 or 11 before they are going to vote and then in the sixth form as well before they leave to make sure ... and it is then when maybe you would question is this the system that we want, do we need party politics, how does it compare with everybody else?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: Explaining a Centenier and a Vingtenier and explain where the numbers come from and it was because we were speaking French, then they start beginning to understand again why the local politics and their parish politics and how the parish is run a little bit better. For some of our students who come from Scotland or from England it is even more complex and difficult to understand.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Yes, good point. Okay, we will move to - again partly covered - number 8.
Deputy S. Pitman:
What training is given and how is training updated? Or is it updated to new teachers coming in from outside of Jersey?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
I would say we have our P.S.E. meetings where we would initially get together and then when we have colleagues that join our team then we make sure that they know what they are doing, that we provide materials for them, that we help them.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
It is like a cascading ... so whatever we know we cascade. The other thing, I think, is a lot of us tend to team teach so we knew that if there is somebody in our department who is not quite as confident, we will team teach the lesson if we possible can. So you offer support and that is one way they learn as well.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Do you think it could be better done or would improve by having specific training?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls: In service training? Like a training day for all teachers delivering ...
Deputy S. Pitman: Yes.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls: That might be very nice if we can run to it.
Deputy S. Pitman:
But would it improve the education do you think? I get the impression it is learning on the job.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
I think from my point of view I have got a team of 15 that changes from year to year so if I have got 10 people the same the following year I think I am lucky, but where it does work for me is that my key stage 4 teachers do not change very much so they are secure and they know what they are doing, they have done it before. But because it is such a vast area to cover within the school I have to very often have teachers who may only teach one or 2 lessons a week and if it is something they have not done before you have to talk them through it. I cannot see a head teacher letting them out for one day a week for one lesson. So it is difficult. You have to really do your best. But you find that teachers are keen to deliver something that they are knowledgeable about and they will put a lot of extra work in to make sure they know what ... they do not want to stand in front of a class and deliver something they do not know about. You tend to get people who are interested teaching P.S.E., who are keen for the
students to learn and to be able to express themselves and to be knowledgeable enough to go and look for answers to questions, because that is basically what we are doing. You know, empowering them to ask the right questions and to make the right decisions.
Deputy M. Tadier :
It sounds like, at least in theory, the concept of an away day where teachers from different schools can get together and exchange ideas would be beneficial.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: We do that but mainly the heads of P.S.E.
Deputy M. Tadier :
The heads, yes, that is right.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
Years and years and years and years and years ago Jean Boutiere, when she was ... they had a resources centre, and that was really useful to those of us doing this sort of thing and we got together and I am sure there was ...
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
That is an excellent prompt. Jean has now changed her name but what is going to be published in the autumn for primary schools, really excellent resource and it has taken a little bit of time because we have had to have copyright in terms of photos and historical documents, but published for September and training will be given to all the teachers ... all P.S.E., citizenship, history co-ordinators in primary schools. But really good teaching resource for all the key moments of Jersey's history and that will be taught ... these aspects are taught but what we have given is a comprehensive set of electronic, video, D.V.D. (Digital Versatile Disc) resources with all the lesson plans as well, all the site visits you can do and more than happy ... these are now being printed but I have brought you the intro if you want to have a look at it. That is the same lady, and she spent an awful lot of time ... so we have invested a lot of money in getting this produced ready for September.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Good. Good.
Deputy M. Tadier : Excellent.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
History of Island but also history of the politics of the Islands which is all around the Mason(?) and all those ...
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
There was a series produced some years ago by the Société was there not?
Business Manager Schools and Colleges: She worked ...
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: With the Heritage Trust.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: I have still got some of those booklets, they are really good.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls: Yes, yes, they are.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Yes, they were good. She has worked those in.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
Yes, she met with all the folk and the ... in fact a lot of the resources, that is where we have had to be careful, because there was ownership of the other resources so we had to make sure we could reproduce them.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: Some of the Jersey Tourism things were quite good as well for explaining ...
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Yes, very good.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: But they are outdated so we could do with some more of those.
Deputy M. Tadier :
The Greffier has got similar material, you may have come across it, but we get presented with a handbook when we start and there is very good material in there.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges: Which is what we do with our new teachers.
Deputy M. Tadier : Good.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
Induction for new teachers to Jersey who have not been through our system, that they get information on being a Jersey citizen.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
I am going to rush to the next question and then we need to leave a little bit of time about this very controversial issue of how the last election was handled and whether the guidelines were too restrictive or not, which in a way would impact more directly on Susan's school, but you may well have views, Nicole.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: We still have 16 year-olds.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Yes, precisely. Can I just ask what provision for political education is provided to students after key stage 4?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
As I said earlier, they do it through form, through talks, through people coming in but the curriculum has been squeezed a lot in recent years and they are trying to fit so many things in particularly with the modular exams that probably more could be done but the staff that are in charge of them at the moment were saying to me that after their survey they feel curriculum overload is a big issue and they could do more through their assembly times. But they do not have a devoted enrichment time specifically to politics any more like they might have done a few years ago. They do, of course, do the Youth Parliament as an activity but that is people ... and that is brilliant, that is people who volunteer in to do debating and then they do the Youth Parliament, some of them do the Baker Platt thing as well. So they do have the opportunities to do that and then, of course, they lead the school in terms of the school council and the prefects and the leadership team. They have a lot of responsibility but obviously that is slightly different. But that is democracy in practice, they lead the houses they do the activities so they are really, really busy. I think maybe a little bit more could be done there. In terms of the higher education they do ... they have people in to talk to them about that. Apparently they have done the social security this year, I certainly did it with my Year 11s the last couple of years. I know you brought that out last time and I think that is really important. But I think maybe those are areas that could certainly be expanded upon.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: I think most of us worked on local employment law because that changed as well.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls: Yes. Yes.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
But that comes in when we do work experience as well. So, you know, work experience is really great for preparing them for work.
Deputy S. Pitman:
You said that that area needs to be improved, 16 plus.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
I think it does but at the moment because there is so much emphasis on their time, in a way the emphasis has to go on to them largely. So they will do a little bit through their curriculum time but a lot of the onus will be on them. They can certainly be encouraged to get involved in the Youth Parliament but it is not like the old general studies civic slot that you would have had and you had a captive audience. It would come ...
Deputy S. Pitman:
May I ask then, why is that general studies slot disappeared?
Business Manager Schools and Colleges: I think you have had your answer in ...
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
I think it is because a lot of universities ... students are obviously very focused on what they need to do for them. They are very interested in issues but in terms of applying for university, general studies is not accepted by a lot of universities and although I used to think it was one of the most important things that there was in terms of the needs for them and the university requirements, they have got a lot of pressure in terms of timetabling, the timings have changed so ...
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay, I am going to have ... because obviously we are aware Nicole has to go. Can you give us your views then on the policy that was applied at the last election in terms of politicians coming into schools?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
We were going to bring people in, and from my understanding we were told no and so we did our in school voting but nothing else.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
That is right. That is in line with the Minister's policy at that time.
Deputy M. Tadier :
What would you have wanted to do?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
We would have tried to bring in different politicians representing different views and talk about why it is important to vote.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Before the hustings or just ... the difficulty is during the husting ...
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: To be honest, I had not thought that through.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
The period of time that the current Minister decided that politicians should not access schools was between the time when nominations were confirmed and the election. So at that period of time - and forgive me in terms of weeks I am sure what that period of time is - closure of nomination to ...
Deputy M. Tadier : Usually 3 or 4 weeks.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
For that period the Minister decided his policy was politicians should not access schools during that time.
Deputy S. Pitman:
There was a husting night organised at Hautlieu, could you tell me how you heard about that and you were able to inform your students.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
To be honest, I cannot remember. From what I remember we had letters and the students, they Year 11s, were invited. That is a bit vague but I am sure we had a letter inviting them.
Deputy M. Tadier :
You had a mock election?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
At the time, no, we did not because we were going to do something and then it all went pear-shaped so we left it.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: What about you, Susan?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
Yes, well every other election in about 30 how many years I have been there we have done our own election at school and we have had all the literature and we have done big displays but because of the directive this time we did not.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
So you did not even have mock elections?
Deputy M. Tadier :
So you could not have any manifestos, even if it was all of them?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
No, we were told that to make it ... and the reasoning was ... no, I did check because I said: "Can we have all the literature" and I was told no but the reasoning was that they did not want to look as though ...
Deputy M. Tadier :
So hang on you had an election ...
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls: No, we did not. We did not.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Let us wait for Susan to finish her answer.
Deputy M. Tadier : Sorry.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
We have to be very, very careful that we were not being partial to any candidate rather than another. Now, the Minister that was here at Easter, when we chatted about that, obviously he was not in position at the particular time and he said he thought that if we had everybody's literature in then it would be okay. I mean I know in all the other elections the 16 year-olds obviously could not vote yet so that was the different factor here. In every other election as well there was a hustings that I seem to remember, a hustings up at Highlands but it was during school curriculum time and all of the sixth form were invited and they went to it.
[17:30]
Now, from my perspective I think for this last one it was quite ... it seemed quite near ... fixed up very short, in fairly short notice and notice went up apparently in our sixth form centre but, of course, it was straight after school and so many of them have lots and lots of other commitments, so that is one of the reasons I think there were not many people there. I do not think it was that they were completely disinterested, it was just a combination of very unfortunate things. If the date had been much earlier, if it had been in curriculum time, like the Friday afternoon, or a Thursday afternoon, that would have been much more successful.
Deputy S. Pitman:
As professionals, could you give your professional view on what you think should have been done and what ...
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: It is not for us to make judgment on.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
That was the Minister's policy at the time. It is not appropriate for ... we are driven by the policies of our Minister and the Minister's policy at that time was for that period of time no politician should go in and he also took the decision at that time that no manifestos should go into the schools either.
Deputy M. Tadier :
I agree, but I think we have already heard that you feel like you were hampered because you had certain things which you wanted to do which you could not do.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
I think if I had been given the opportunity we would have invited people in to talk to our Year 11s at an assembly and that would have been the fairest thing that we could have done. Remember for us it would have been the first time 16 year-olds could have voted and it was a really, really big thing in school about that.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Irrespective of what any policy might be at one given time, do you think it is desirable or not to have the information of the manifestos or posters?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls:
Yes, and I know what we have done in the past, when they have been on the BBC I have videoed it and then had that and shown that so that although we could not get the politicians all physically in to talk to lots of different class they could see and make up their own minds. I think to have a school election, it is fun for a start and then they compare the results with the results that come out in the evening so, yes.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Would you say that you and your colleagues are quite capable of organising, in an impartial way, the information and the politicians so that they can access the schools and the students can access the information?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls: Yes, but obviously we are bound within the ...
Deputy M. Tadier :
Yes, but you would be able to do it in theory.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls: I would think so. We have been working long enough really to ...
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
To be honest, whenever you are teaching you have to be impartial, you cannot take one side or the other.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls: Yes, you cannot, no.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay, and on that note, are there any final comments that the 3 of you would wish to make?
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
I think just to follow up and end on that one, is that nominations have not closed and certainly the Members here who are very interested in this topic, if you were to approach any school and say: "Can we talk to your 16 year-olds about the importance of voting?" I would think the head of P.S.H.E. would bite your hand off.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: Yes.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges: So there are an awful lot ...
The Deputy of Grouville : You might be surprised at that.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Okay, let them finish. Carry on.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Sorry, we are being very rude. Sorry.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges: Sorry, I have lost my train of thought.
Deputy M. Tadier :
You were just saying that they would be willing to have us in ...
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
Your group of politicians who are very interested and feel very strongly about the importance of this, we are approaching a by-election, they can all vote, if you were to approach schools at this time ... and at the time there was no distinction between ... more or less practically everybody was standing last time round and it will be the case next time as well, I believe, but here we have a by election, none of you colleagues are involved in the by election ...
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: Trouble is we have lost our Year 11s now.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls: Yes, that is right.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
This by-election is at a difficult time because all the Year 11, 12 and 13s are now out of school.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education, Jersey College for Girls: They are all in exams.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
To be fair, if you asked them at the moment what is more important to them ...
The Deputy of Grouville : Yes, absolutely.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Any final comments?
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: Certainly more than happy but the one thing for us is that it is 7 or 8 times and I would rather people came in when they were speaking to small groups because you get far more out of the students.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Anyway, I would like to thank all 3 of you for coming. We are very impressed by your commitment and your deep interest in the subject.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School:
I would just say within a few years we will be replaced by all glowing, all young people because we are all going up to retirement P.S.E. teachers.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Oh well.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
All the P.S.E. teacher are really experienced colleagues.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
I would not have thought it. I would not have thought it. Thank you very much indeed for coming. Sorry to be a bit abrupt with everybody but I am aware of the time.
Head of Personal, Social and Health Education Careers, Le Rocquier School: Yes, sorry, I have to get back to school. Thank you very much.
Business Manager Schools and Colleges:
Can I talk you through these so you can give them out?
[17:34]