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STATES OF JERSEY
Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Political Education Review
WEDNESDAY, 5th MAY 2010
Panel:
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour (Chairman) Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville
Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade
Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier
Witness:
Ms. E. Southern
Present:
Mrs. E. Liddiard (Scrutiny Officer)
[14:32]
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour (Chairman):
I would like to welcome you, Ms. Southern , to this session of the Political Education Review, a sub-panel of Education and Home Affairs, and just for the record we will put ourselves on the tape. I am Roy Le Hérissier, the Chairman, St. Saviour Deputy .
Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville : Carolyn Labey , Deputy of Grouville .
Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade : Montfort Tadier , Deputy of St. Brelade .
Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier : Deputy Shona Pitman of St. Helier .
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Elizabeth Liddiard is our Scrutiny Officer. Thank you for coming, Ethel. Before we get into the formal questioning, we appreciate that you have read the witness requirement. Could you very briefly tell us how you got involved with this area and what you did in your career that got you involved in this area?
Ms. E. Southern :
I taught in Stevenage in the U.K. (United Kingdom) and I was teaching Sciences and things like that and was always interested in the actual students that I was teaching; that is always a good start. Then at Les Quennevais, over and above the exam curriculum, we had the general studies and so I got involved in teaching that, so that was superb. Then I moved on to Grainville where in 1988 I went on a course called Skills for Adolescence and it was taught by one of the writers, Bill Rice, and he put into words everything that I had ever felt about how young people could be: learn, develop, be successful. So therefore that was called Skills for Adolescence and it was created for drugs education but all the skills and the attitudes and values cross all areas of young people's development. So, I was teaching on that curriculum and then in 1990 I became head of P.S.H.E. (Personal, Social and Health Education) and Careers at Grainville, so that kind of fits together rather nicely. There was a report done and then there was some talk that there were gaps and so therefore it was thought that co-ordination and overseeing of the P.S.H.E. curriculum would be a valuable thing to do and so I went for an interview for that and I got it. Some of my schemes were being used in other schools at the time so therefore I was considered to be a teacher of good practice.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
So you did this work, you developed a curriculum and then before you retired you went back into the primary sector, is that right?
Ms. E. Southern :
I did. I had been out of Grainville for 6 years and so therefore I thought: "I cannot go and chuck Di Blampied out of her job; nobody there knows me. I like what Peter Le Breuilly has been doing at St. Mark's; I will go and see if he has got a job for me at Les Squez" as it was then So I was there supernumerary for a year and I taught from reception to year 6 circle time. I wrote a curriculum that covered all the strands of P.S.E. (Personal and Social Education) while I was teaching all of those classes which I then handed over to the children, and some of those schemes were used Island-wide for a while. Then after that year came up, somebody left and then, whoosh, I was in year 6 with all the demands of that from thereon.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Well that all sounds very relevant and very interesting, Ethel, so thank you. We will now return to what you have been given, the questions ... sorry, Shona.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Can I ask just maybe something slightly different?
Ms. E. Southern : Yes, go on.
Deputy S. Pitman:
I wanted to know how long were U.K. pupils being taught citizenship or P.S.E. before Jersey implemented ours?
Ms. E. Southern :
Well, it would have taken place in sort of many forms but when the national curriculum came in they brought in these cross-curricular themes - so the 5 cross- curricular themes - and one of those was citizenship. In the U.K. it was not statutory, so when I was put in post in 1994, when I wrote the P.S.E. curriculum under the guidance of Mavis Snowdon, the citizenship element there was one of the entitlement elements of the Jersey curriculum for P.S.E. whereas it was later on that it became statutory in the U.K. So we had our entitlement curriculum before they did, although, of course, it is not statutory over here but it became statutory over there.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay. Thank you. So we will return to the questions. So when you devised the original P.S.H.E. syllabus, what were your aims?
Ms. E. Southern :
Well, when the national curriculum came in, obviously there were the subjects but it was realised that that was not going to give a rounded education to all pupils and people were aware of, if you like, the hidden curriculum. You know, if you talk about hidden curriculum it hits some children and does not hit others. So therefore these 5 strands were intended to make, if you like, the implicit curriculum explicit. So we had a curriculum for knowledge, skills and attitudes across these themes which were intended to enable young people to make informed choices, to be active citizens, to be more effective learners and be more successful; making good choices.
The Deputy of Grouville :
I was going to deviate slightly from this. What percentage would you say is political education?
Ms. E. Southern :
Very little. Very, very little. Because when you talk about citizenship, when you are in the primary sector you are talking about ...
The Deputy of Grouville :
Well that was the next question: how it differs.
Ms. E. Southern :
Do you know what I mean? In a classroom you have got your own little community and then you have the key stage community and then you have the school community, then you have the Parish community, then you have the Island community and then you have the British Isles and all that sort of business. So, if I am talking about political education as being political literacy when we are teaching them about government and how it works, a very, very small amount. I could not put an actual time on it because let us say in primary about a third of the year would be given to citizenship but that would be to do with class councils, school councils, debating and luckily we have this year 5 element going to the States Chamber and the resources produced there but very little will be to do with actual political literacy.
The Deputy of Grouville :
So, how would you say it differs from primary school to secondary?
Ms. E. Southern :
In primary you are going to be looking more at the local level, so it has to be real. It needs to be real in secondary as well but we would not be going much further than Jersey political education. I mean, obviously with an election going on now then you are going to have discussions about what is going on in the U.K. but in the curriculum the secondaries are expected to address the U.K. Government and United Nations and world governments so that is how it differs; you will be looking further afield.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
When you say you look "further afield", do you teach it in a different way to the secondary students as to the primary?
Ms. E. Southern :
I cannot say that; I do not know. I am in one school now. I have not been involved in the Island, apart from sex education, since 1999 so I cannot say. I have not made any phone calls to find out because I thought that would be third-hand and I was not prepared to do it. I thought I would just tell you what I know. With primary school children you do not have to gee them up. You do have opportunities to work in groups and facilitate their learning in groups. Of course with critical skills we do a lot more of that in secondary now but you have an opportunity to be more cross- curricular in primary. If I just give you an example of what got my lot excited was that in year 5 we do a topic called Coasts. Now, knowing what was going on about Plémont it would be remiss of me to not look at the coast at Plémont and get them involved and really care about that. So because I have that opportunity I was able to take them there, I was able to get Mike Stentiford to meet us out there to talk to us about the area and then do research on it. You see, the thing is I like to think you have the time to do research into things so you can nitty-gritty, you know, find out lots about it. Take your parents there and pick the flowers and all that sort of stuff. What was interesting about this last one was that I always do a press release because I like to push these things out because maybe somebody else will do something like that, and I did an interview on the radio about the fact that we were going to the States to discuss this little hot topic. At 8.00 a.m. in the morning the architect of the development at Plémont had phoned the school to say: "Can I come and talk to the children before you go to the States Chamber?" So the architect was allowed in the school.
The Deputy of Grouville : That is interesting.
Ms. E. Southern :
Yes. Well we did not check with Education for that one.
The Deputy of Grouville : No. Very wise.
Ms. E. Southern :
Yes. But we still have the plans in the classroom at year 5 of the development and it did not affect the way they voted but it could have done because you know what children are like: the last person that speaks to them really can influence them. So I would say in primary you have the opportunity to grab the opportunity and you can make it cross-curricular, you can make it flexible, you can use your loaf, use your skills and interests to really engage them over quite a prolonged period of time. It was a half-term topic among the other important: English, Maths and Science.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Okay. Thank you.
Ms. E. Southern : Is that okay?
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Yes. Well, you may have partly answered number 3 but I will leave it to Deputy Tadier .
Deputy M. Tadier :
Can I just follow on from that? I am trying to formulate this coherently; I am not sure I can. Is there a difference in the way you teach primary school to secondary school in the sense that ... I get the impression that at primary school you teach them about the facts, you teach them about how the States work, this is about Jersey's history, how we got here in 1204, et cetera, and I think I remember doing that, but less about questioning the system and what politics is. Is it fair to say that comes later on?
Ms. E. Southern :
The questioning will come later on. If we were allowed hustings, we would get into the questioning then but they want to care. They do care. So if they are interested then they would be interested in finding out things.
[14:45]
I would be disappointed if you thought primary was the place to teach them facts because you want them to know how to do it. You want them to vote, put their slip in the black box with the cross and not the tick, you want them to go to the Parish Hall and see how it is done. So it is really experiential because I am teaching a class; it is not like somebody is seeing their children for an hour a week to do this political education. I have got them all the time so therefore I have the relationship with them and knowing them and engaging with them, so that is easier. Does that answer your ...?
Deputy M. Tadier :
Yes, I think so. Okay. The next question really follows on: what is the best age to start teaching?
Ms. E. Southern :
If we are going to talk political with a big "P", because they are political at nursery, are they not, with their choices and all that and going and choosing what they want to do during the day, I think now that we have got the resources in year 5 that is a very good time to do it. Because when you come to the States building and you do sit in your seat with your microphone and all that, it is fabulous, and I would hope that people would make the most of that opportunity and not just pay lip service to it. Because if the children had time to formulate their arguments and really prepare their speeches rather than just stand up, press a button and just talk, not that anybody would ever do that, it is good. I must admit when I was asking my children to do their speeches, I asked them to do them as homework because then they all came in with different speeches and they were not all feeding off each other. So therefore we had some very interesting ... and, of course, the parents were involved because they would have their views on each of these issues. So I would say year 5 it is super but then you have got to keep it going in year 6 because you do not want it to slip. Because if
you can keep them going until about the first couple of years of secondary, then you have a much better chance of keeping them going all the way through but you do not want this sort of turning off.
Deputy M. Tadier :
You made a very interesting point about the politics with a small "p" and a big "P". Is that a precondition, do you think, that they need to basically understand what politics is in the global sense in school and how it affects them?
Ms. E. Southern :
Well they have a voice in a primary school, you see? Because they will have a class council, they will get elected to be on the school council, they will put things forward, largely involving jobs for the caretaker, and then they can see things that make a difference and they are not powerless.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Okay. Thank you, Ethel. Shona?
Deputy S. Pitman:
So how do you think political education should be prioritised in schools?
Ms. E. Southern :
I think we need to be aware of it all the time, all the way through their education, and make sure the curriculum is covered. But I think we need to seize the opportunities when they are real, around election times, by election times, whatever, and make sure that we really maximise their opportunity. I would push tooth and nail for that to really happen.
Deputy S. Pitman: Is that happening?
Ms. E. Southern :
I do not think it happens across the board. I mean, if I can jump on a little bit. When I was first in primary I think one of the first things we did, when there was a Senatorial election - and I was teaching year 6 then - I gave them each a character, a politician, and they researched that one and then they stood up and spoke as if they were that person. The Senators, it is too big for a primary school; they do not want to come in to all of us anyway, but that meant that they got engaged with a politician. So when the votes came in - and it was the first time Philip Ozouf stood - and I think it was very much flavour of the month for that little lot. So that was good. Then another time there was an opportunity for a Deputies' election in St. Clement. So we invited the candidates in, you know, a panel, hustings, formal chairs and the children planned their questions and they would stand up - and you would have a chairperson from the children - and say: "My name is such and such and I live in the Parish of and I would like to ask the candidates ..." and you had to sort of limit the length of their speeches for them. At the end out came the ballot box and then they voted and, of course, the candidates were really, really keen to see who come out top with these children The second time I did it, it was for the Constables' election and one of them raised a question about a road crossing and the Constable said: "I will take that back; we will discuss it." A year or so later we got a reply to the school to say that crossing
was now in place. So, those children in that community had had the opportunity to quiz candidates for Deputy , quiz candidates for Constable and do the actual voting. So, I would say, yes, maximise the opportunities when you can. If I was going back again now - I cannot because I am retired - I would be seizing opportunities to bring them in and ask them questions.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Can I jump in there quickly, Shona? It was just to ask is it possible to combine different subjects so when you are teaching French or if you are teaching Maths you can make links?
Ms. E. Southern :
Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely, yes. I was doing mine with my I.C.T. (Information and Communication Technology) because we needed to do research and presentation for that and Geography and P.S.E. as well as citizenship.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Is it easier to do that at primary school, would you say, than ...?
Ms. E. Southern : Much easier, yes.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Since the 16 year-olds have been able to vote, or the law was passed, do you think that schools have seized the opportunity?
Ms. E. Southern : No.
Deputy S. Pitman:
In what way do you think they could improve?
Ms. E. Southern :
Well I think they need to be given permission to invite people in. I do not understand why, when 16 year-olds are given the opportunity to vote, then all of a sudden politicians cannot go into school. I mean, I did phone Roy and said that I was most disappointed that ... I was going to invite the Deputy of my Parish and the man that was standing against him into my school and I had had wind that the secondaries were not able to do it but I thought: "That does not apply to me; I have always done it. I will do it until I am told not to." So my head thought: "Better be cautious about it" and phoned the department and she spoke to Cliff Chipperfield who passed it up to Jeremy Harris and Jeremy Harris said: "No, because the children might go home and influence their parents." So, this happened within about half an hour of the men coming in and so the children were disappointed; I was disappointed. We wanted to grill them over what they were going to do about Plémont and so I just could not comprehend. It was beyond my comprehension that a primary school would be stopped from inviting 2 candidates in who were standing for Deputy . So I was flabbergasted.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Is this something that happens in the U.K. and other countries?
Ms. E. Southern :
Well I have done a lot of research of this kind. I was searching in my non-contact time and the best people I got to talk to were the people from Wales who said they had had ... I was looking for guidance from the U.K. of saying: "This is what you should do." The people who I spoke to in Wales said: "The difficulty we have is you want to give everybody a voice and there has been difficulty with the B.N.P. (British National Party)." So, that is when I sort of sat back and thought: "Well I can understand there are difficulties there." But I do not understand why secondaries have to just rely on Senatorial elections and they are not too grand to go into Deputies' elections and get their experiences that way. Maybe they do. I am sure some do but whether all do, I do not know.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay. Well that is very useful. Some of the questions are going to start basically covering stuff that you have partly dealt with, Ethel, so tell us if you feel we are repeating ourselves which we sometimes do get accused of, of course.
Ms. E. Southern :
It might give me a chance to clarify myself.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
But I will come to question 5: is political education given enough time within the overall P.S.H.E. curriculum and could you give us your view of what areas of that curriculum should, if necessary, get priority over other areas?
Ms. E. Southern :
Well I think you have to keep an eye on what is important in the young people's lives. When I started my post, we were very anxious about H.I.V. (Human Immunodeficiency Virus) and A.I.D.S. (Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome) and so therefore you put quite a lot of emphasis on that and the training of teachers around these areas. Then illegal drugs was very important at the time as well so therefore we put training and resources into that. So I think in P.S.H.E. we try and prepare children for future choices so therefore you are sort of second-guessing key issues. So, I would always say that the health education is very, very important but people do need to be actively involved so I do not know how much time you would ... one would have to do an audit of the time that people genuinely are delivering this sort of education. Because I would say that it would vary throughout all the primary schools and it would vary throughout all the secondary schools. So, I cannot, with my hand on my heart, tell you how much time is given to it. I do not know.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
From your observation what are the variables? Is it, for example, enthusiasm of the teacher? What are the variables, Ethel, that will drive its importance in the curriculum?
Ms. E. Southern :
Well I think historically teachers, secondary teachers, were not very confident in local politics and the history of the Island, so a couple of times I have done training with Andrew Heaven for secondary P.S.E. teachers and that was sort of useful. But you cannot just do it once and then think it is done. I mean, the secondary P.S.E. teachers do meet, so therefore they would be in a position to say: "We need more training" if they do. The primary teachers do not meet - primary P.S.E. teachers do not meet - so therefore there is not at this moment in time a vehicle for them to say what sort of training they need around that area. But I think it would be a very good time now to raise the profile again because education is going very much into assessment and levelling and so therefore people may take their eye off the ball at this moment in time.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Yes, good point. Okay. We will move to ... Carolyn?
The Deputy of Grouville :
This point might have been covered with Monty's question but in what other areas in school is political education covered? I will use an example; we are going back about 10 years. My son, I think, in year 5, before they used to come in here, knew everything about St. Lucia: the flag, the plantation, the vegetation, and nothing about Jersey, so I just wondered if local education and political education is covered in other subjects.
Ms. E. Southern :
I would say in the primary not particularly in other subjects but I think History is useful because when you are doing ... it depends where you are coming from. I was doing Victorians and I decided - I decided - that I was interested in Dr. Barnardo and Lord Shaftesbury, so I was going to politicise that. One of my books in literature was about the Tolpuddle Martyrs, so I was going to bring it up in that way. So, it does depend on the teachers and their interest so you have got to really get them going and then everything follows.
The Deputy of Grouville :
In secondary school, is it covered in ...?
Ms. E. Southern :
History, really, I think. But then in Geography you have got your environmental education and things like that and conservation, sustainability, so it will come in those areas as well.
[15:00]
The Deputy of Grouville :
Politics with a small "p", are the secondary school children taught about finance, social security, pensions, that sort of ...?
Ms. E. Southern :
Well they are supposed to, yes.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Did you ever have cases, Ethel, where there were quite sort of hale and hearty arguments in the school as to how you should handle political education?
Ms. E. Southern :
No, not at all. Not at all.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
No. So it really depended on you driving it?
Ms. E. Southern : Yes.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Presumably the example Carolyn gave, that could have been a Geography lesson, could it not: you learn about other countries and as part of that you would learn about the political systems?
Ms. E. Southern :
Yes. I mean, people get very excited about the World Cup; you could approach that from any sort of angle that you like, so there is an opportunity there. So there will be a lot more sort of global knowledge going on through the World Cup.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay. Thank you. Good, we will go to Monty.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Yes, I think it has been touched on already. What proportion of time is given to local politics and non-local? I guess, talking about maybe that at the moment there is a general election going on in the U.K.
Ms. E. Southern :
Yes. I can only talk for myself, but in year 5 there would be about half a term addressing this and then re-visiting it for about 3 weeks in year 6 and that is just like 40 minutes to an hour each time. But you do not what to flog it to death either.
Deputy M. Tadier :
No. Talking about structures of politics, either in Jersey or elsewhere, people like us, we might be interested in that already but it is fairly dry, I think it is fair to say. How do you approach that? Do you have to put foundation work in before; talk about politics in a more global sense?
Ms. E. Southern :
Well go with the issue first. Go with the issue, get them excited and how we are going to deal with it. The old expression "hearts and minds", that is what we are after. You know, get them really passionate about it and then: "Right. What steps do we need to take and what vehicles can we use?"
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Did you ever get any feedback from parents? Because, as you know, the Jersey system is often a bit of a puzzle to outsiders because of the personality bias; you know, their own parties. Did you ever get any feedback from parents?
Ms. E. Southern :
I think now that we are doing this year 5 visit to the States - because I invite my lot to come, so they are up there in the gallery - a lot of them have learnt a lot by doing that. You know, people do not think the States Chambers are for them. You know, they do not feel ... and that is what I was trying to do: break down the barriers so that people could feel that they were included and a part of it.
Deputy M. Tadier :
It does not help that they shut the doors; they look shut. When you go to the States they should have a map.
Ms. E. Southern : Yes.
The Deputy of Grouville : There are no toilet facilities.
Deputy M. Tadier :
For your information, though, I have been successful and they are going to put a sign outside now on States days showing people where to go the gallery, so hopefully they will be there for the next sitting.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay. We now come to an interesting issue. Shona?
Deputy S. Pitman:
Yes. Do you think schools and the Youth Service could work together more in delivering this education and, if so, where do you think they could do this?
Ms. E. Southern :
I think it is always good to work ... I mean, in the informal setting anyway, I think that is always good to do. I was lucky enough when I was doing my advisory work to go on a couple of days' training with the Youth Service on equal opportunities and that was something that was good for me. Because the secondary teachers do meet, there are opportunities for people from the Youth Service to meet with them when they meet to discuss what is going on - each of the age groups - so there are opportunities there. Obviously the Youth Service are able to grab issues that are here and now and really sort of follow the procedures through and use that as learning opportunities. One thing that has always been a question in my mind is how many children of the Island go to youth clubs; from which schools? I have got a view, and I could be completely wrong, that more children go to youth clubs from non-fee paying schools. That is what I have just observed. So, those children may well not be engaged either as much by schools or by the Youth Service and also I worry about Highlands College. When the big splash that Len Norman likes so much every year, when they have their Youth Parliament thing, does Highlands College get invited to that? Or if they do, how much effort is put into getting students in from Highlands College? Sorry, I am going off the point. I think ... go on.
The Deputy of Grouville :
Well on that point, going back to training the trainers, is it because the teachers in those schools ... I mean, they can teach P.S.H.E. but that is, as you have alluded to, a very broad subject and it can be very limited how much of that is politics with a capital "P". Could politics with a capital "P" just be left to one side because the teachers, the trainers do not know anything about the local system?
Ms. E. Southern :
It could be marginalised. It could be. I am not saying that it is because it is not assessed, you see. So therefore if it is not assessed, it could just go down the level of priorities.
The Deputy of Grouville :
In your opinion do you think that is what does happen?
Ms. E. Southern :
Can I just talk about sex education? You know, if the teacher is not comfortable in doing sex education they do not do it. So, I see no reason why it should not be the same for political education or just do something very briefly and not make the effort to get the students really engaged.
The Deputy of Grouville :
Yes. So not all the schools are the same, including Highlands College, with this drive at all?
Ms. E. Southern :
No. They will not be, no.
Deputy S. Pitman:
So how do you think the Youth Service is ... can it be utilised more? Is it being utilised enough in this kind of education in schools?
Ms. E. Southern :
Well, I am aware that youth club members have a big say in the running of their youth club and the agendas for that. So therefore they are doing it with a small "p", are they not? They are really doing it with a small "p". So, there is nothing to stop the Youth Service grabbing - or youth clubs grabbing - opportunities when they arise to get the politicians in, give them a good old grilling and things like that. Maybe they do; I do not know but ...
Deputy S. Pitman:
Do you think the schools are pulling these services in to teach areas enough in which they probably could not deliver as well as the youth service?
Ms. E. Southern :
I think they would have to talk to each other about that. I do not know. Let us talk about what each other offers and then see how one could complement the other. I think that is the question of getting into these P.S.E. co-ordinated meetings and what have you and raising their awareness of your areas of expertise and then seeing if it would work.
Deputy S. Pitman:
When you were developing the curriculum, did you get any input from the Youth Service?
Ms. E. Southern :
I did a lot of talking to Sheila Mason, so therefore I was aware, but I am more aware of people from Health Promotion liaising with the Youth Service, going in that direction. But having said that, we did do stuff at Les Quennevais where we involved ... I remember Mark Capern and us doing stuff; we had a health day or something like that and there was other ... the folk from the Youth Service were facilitating group activities. So, yes, we did do that. We did do that.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
We jumped, partly because we have already dealt with number 8 which is: "Access of politicians to schools." Did you follow up, Ethel, given that surprising response you got from head office, was there any follow-up to that?
Ms. E. Southern :
No. I did not do it because I did not want to cause my head any difficulty. I was doing all this research trying to find evidence to go and see Jeremy Harris but I did not find anything concrete enough for me to stick my neck out and do it. In coming to talk to you, I do not want to cause any difficulty for my head teacher because that is the last thing I want to do. So I did not follow it up. I mean, I phoned John Renouf to let him know that: "Guess what? It has even happened in primary" because he needed to know that. But I have kept quite quiet about it until I knew I was coming to talk to you and then I thought: "Oh well, it does not matter; I am going to tell everybody."
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay. Do you feel you have covered number 9, Carolyn, or do you want to ...?
The Deputy of Grouville :
Well if you have got anything more to add about what training is given to the trainers.
Ms. E. Southern :
I just think it is almost like a knowledge and skills audit that is necessary. Maybe if they meet in clusters and they can just share what they know, understand what they can do and then find out what their needs are and then there will be people who can fill those gaps for them. But I think ... go on.
The Deputy of Grouville :
So do you think there should be some more like a John Renouf -type person to sit all the secondary school teachers of this subject down - citizenship; and especially when they teach politics - and give them a couple of days' training?
Ms. E. Southern :
I mean, we used to have a couple of days a year training but there is no funding for it now. But it is a wonderful thing to do: to get them out for a couple of days and just chew the fat and talk about what they are doing and give people fresh ideas on how to make it exciting because it can be made exciting.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Was that political education specifically for training or did it encompass it?
Ms. E. Southern :
Yes. That is what we are talking about today so I would say: "Yes" because I would not like to see us stuttering through another election like we stuttered through the last one. You know, if we do not get on with it we will not have made any progress at all.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Can I ask a specific question? There would be operational implications to it and it may not be practical but would you think it is desirable to have ballots in schools, to have the ballot boxes in schools, so that these students can vote when they are in school, irrespective of any practical implications?
Ms. E. Southern :
So change the voting centres?
Deputy M. Tadier : Yes, basically.
Ms. E. Southern : Polling stations?
Deputy M. Tadier :
So 16 to 18 year-olds can vote when they are at school. Then at the end you send the ballot papers back to ...
Ms. E. Southern :
But you would let other people go in as well; the people who live nearby?
Deputy M. Tadier : Well, I am not sure but ...
Ms. E. Southern :
Well you would have to, would you not?
Deputy M. Tadier : I guess so.
Ms. E. Southern :
Because otherwise it is just saying: "Shall I come and take your vote for you and put it in the box, dear?" Because you know what they are ...
Deputy M. Tadier :
Well, yes, exactly. I mean, they do use schools already, do they not? Primary schools, but it is different.
Ms. E. Southern :
Yes. Part of me thinks that is a good idea and part of me thinks: "What a shame that we have not whipped them up enough to make them want to go and vote in an
established polling station." I think what I would rather do, I would rather give them the afternoon off to go and vote rather than take the ballot boxes to them. I think that is what I would rather do. But that is not going to happen either but ... yes.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Or have one central place like St. Saviour; a lot of the schools are fairly close together.
Ms. E. Southern :
Well St. Saviour 's Parish Hall probably has got one, has it not?
Deputy M. Tadier :
Yes, that is true. Give them some time off.
Ms. E. Southern :
Give them the directions.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay. Number 11, Monty, is yours and we have covered aspects of that. Do you want it?
Deputy M. Tadier :
We may as well ask it. Is there anything else, any improvements that you think could be made in the way that we ...?
Ms. E. Southern :
All I want to say to you is just seize the opportunity; you know, make it real.
[15:15]
Now that we have lost Plémont, it is not sort of easy to find another issue to engage in but I am sure it is possible. I am sure it is possible just to think creatively so that if we go down the route of just saying: "Political education is about knowing what to do; asking questions." If we still keep going with the grey matter and not use the heart - do you know what I mean - and really care, it will be just like sixth formers who debate, pontificate and then do nothing.
Deputy M. Tadier :
So we need some radicalisation maybe? It is all right; that was a facetious comment.
Ms. E. Southern :
No, no, no. But understanding that if we do whip people up and make them care and make it real and we are not just doing it artificially then we might engage them so that they act on it.
Deputy M. Tadier :
To put the question in a different way, are there any barriers that you think you have come across which would have inhibited you from doing what you might like to do?
Ms. E. Southern :
I think time restraints would be a big one for the older students; the secondary students. That would be ...
Deputy M. Tadier : Bureaucracy and red tape?
Ms. E. Southern :
If people could just stand back and use a group of people to think about trying something fresh that might excite them; you know, we have got the baccalaureate now at Hautlieu. Surely there is an opportunity within that sort of framework to find something creative and there must be time by pulling in all the people that are involved in those areas to just share the thinking. People should not be out in little pockets trying to think it up for themselves. It is all right for those people who are ideas on legs but then others need to talk and share ideas with others.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Can I ask about the citizenship curriculum itself? Do you think there are subjects in there which need less attention than political education that should be taken out or ...?
Ms. E. Southern :
I would not say so. I would not say so.
Deputy S. Pitman:
Is there too much in the curriculum?
Ms. E. Southern :
You can get very bogged down with class councils and school councils and feel that you are doing it all. So there needs to be an awareness that that is not enough. You need to have the political awareness and the political literacy as well. I think that is where some primary schools will come unstuck. They will say that they are doing it because they are doing the class councils or school councils or what have you but it is not enough.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Ethel, what do you think of the findings that Mr. Renouf put in his report? Did you read his report?
Ms. E. Southern : I have not had that.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: You have not had that?
Ms. E. Southern :
No, I have not had that, no.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Oh, okay.
Ms. E. Southern :
No, sorry. No, I am not going to tell fibs; I have not had that.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Yes. Okay. Now, we are on the home run, so we are going to do some wrap-up questions now, Ethel. You talk about political literacy and that is informing people of how institutions are structured and so forth.
Ms. E. Southern :
Also how to access them.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Yes, and how to access them. In trying to sort of deal with the Jersey structure which a lot of people find very confusing, what have you found the most effective way putting that across to students?
Ms. E. Southern :
Well, I would have to repeat the year 5 experience, coming to the States Chamber, if it is used properly, if the issue is real and if the preparation is thorough, then you have got an excellent introduction. Absolutely excellent.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay. Good. Are there any other wrap-up type questions?
Deputy M. Tadier :
I do not want to put words in your mouth but we have used the phrase in the past for a different review, talking about a "champion" of a particular subject and I am not sure what the current setup is but do you think that it would be helpful to have more of a focal point like a person who is responsible for organising political education throughout the schools?
Ms. E. Southern :
Yes, it would help because you have got to have somebody to drive it. You have got to have somebody to drive it and support people because people are very willing but they just need not to take their eye off the ball.
Deputy M. Tadier :
It would not necessarily have to be limited to ... or it could be just P.S.E. I do not know if you have that already but it could be more focused perhaps than it is at the moment.
Ms. E. Southern :
It could be. You might want to talk to Andrew Heaven about that.
Deputy M. Tadier : Yes, okay.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Shona or Carolyn?
The Deputy of Grouville :
No, not at the moment.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay, what about you, Ethel, are there any parting thoughts you would like to impart?
Ms. E. Southern :
No, I do not think so. No, I just think the teachers need support; that is all.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Obviously this whole issue of access during elections, you talked a lot about "seize the moment" and you obviously feel that ... I presume that we need to review what were seen as terribly restrictive rules.
Ms. E. Southern :
Absolutely. Absolutely. It made me feel very strange living in Jersey. I felt very, very strange.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Yes. Okay. Thank you very much. I think we have all been very impressed by your enthusiasm and your commitment to the subject even ...
Ms. E. Southern :
No, I have retired now.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
I was about to say even though you can draw a line under it but ...
Ms. E. Southern :
I am definitely ... give me an opportunity.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Okay. Well, thank you.
Ms. E. Southern :
Thank you. Thanks very much.
[15:21]