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STATES OF JERSEY
Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Succession Planning within the States of Jersey Police Sub-Panel
FRIDAY, 15th OCTOBER 2010
Panel:
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour (Chairman) Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier (Vice-Chairman) Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour
Witness:
President of the Police Association
Also Present:
Ms S. Power (Scrutiny Officer)
[15:23]
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour (Chairman):
We would like to start this meeting formally, and we are obviously transcribing it. I would like to welcome you to the meeting. Thank you very much for this meeting of the Education and Home Affairs Panel on succession planning in the police service. I am Roy Le Hérissier, Chairman, Deputy of St. Saviour .
Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour :
Good afternoon. I am Deputy Jeremy Maçon of St. Saviour .
Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier :
Deputy Trevor Pitman, St. Helier No. 1, Vice-Chairman.
I am Louis Beghin, President of the Police Association.
Ms. S. Power (Scrutiny Officer): Sam Power, Scrutiny Officer.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Thank you very much for attending. It is very important that we get all perspectives, obviously, on this situation. We have not perhaps recruited as many witnesses as we would have hoped, but I think we have determined that. We have had a good range of witnesses today, albeit more from what you might call the upper echelons of politics and organisations. So, I will kick off and then my colleagues will pick up. As you can see the questions are quite broad, and we will get there in the end, so to speak - not necessarily in the order. From the Union's perspective, how successful do you think succession planning has been in the States of Jersey Police?
President of the Police Association:
I do not think it has from the Association's point of view. We seem to have put plans in place and then something comes along that changes those plans. We have obviously promotion processes that we run through, and those are regularly held, but I think it is not so much for the sergeants or the inspectors ... chief inspectors is actually the senior ranks where superintendent and above where the succession plan has gone a little bit wrong.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
We are going to look at the whole issue of local and imported staff, and whether you need a mix or whether you can really go for a totally localised police service. So I will move the question to Deputy Maçon.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Does the force do all that it can to maximise the opportunities for local applicants?
President of the Police Association:
For local applicants joining the job or applying for promotion throughout?
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Let us go for both.
President of the Police Association:
Primarily we recruit locally anyway. It has only been some years ago where we had to bring some officers over on (j) category licences just because recruitment had been particularly bad. But I think when an officer is recruited there ... we recently moved to localised training in a bid to save money, and that seems to work quite well at the moment. They are given all the opportunities that I think they would get at the National Training College. It is probably easier because it is local legislation they are working with from day one rather than working with U.K. (United Kingdom) legislation and then coming back and being told: "You can forget all that and now you have got to start again with Jersey legislation." So probably from that perspective it is very good. After that, when somebody is in the job and they want to seek promotion, it is very much they have to pass a promotion examination and then relevant
promotion boards, and it is down to the individual then to put in the time to study in order to seek promotion.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Not how easy, but how is it for someone ... say someone wanted to progress up the scale, how can they indicate that? Is it picked up? Are they encouraged to? How does that work?
President of the Police Association:
When someone has finished their probation they will then get the opportunity to sit the promotion exam. But I think somebody who has been on probation for 2 years generally, when somebody has finished their 2-year probationary period, if they apply to sit the promotion exam, then that would be an indication then that they are interested in receiving promotion. There is also something called the High Potential Development Scheme that has recently been advertised and people can express an interest in that, which is a way of saying, you know: "I want to go higher in the force." So, when somebody indicates ... when somebody has passed the promotion exam then they are on that step, providing that they get through the next stage, which is the promotion board. But there is a section: you have got to have experience in the various aspects of the police force in order to then supervise people in that; and there are other opportunities as well. We have got the Modern Manager Programme that some people have signed up for, or taken diplomas in management privately. I think it is sometimes an individual thing as well. If you want to say: "I want to go further. What can I do to further my own career?" then we will go off and maybe have a look at ways of doing that, and speak to senior management and see if there is something that they can do.
[15:30]
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay. We will come to that all-important question of a monopoly of senior positions: should it be open to locals or outsiders?
Deputy T.M. Pitman:
Is it unrealistic to expect all senior positions to be filled by local applicants, even over a period of time?
President of the Police Association:
I do not think it is unrealistic. I think it would take a period of time. I think there are learning experiences from going away to other forces that you can then bring back. I think if you stick with totally local people who have not gone away and gained those experiences ... it does not have to be for a long time. I speak about myself. I have
been away for 3 months to Newcastle on a leadership development programme and that 3 months is a good insight into the way another force works. So, I do not think it has to be as long as 2 years you have to go away to another force and see. You can go away and do lots ... I think there is a package that is tailored. You can go away and do lots of secondments to get the work into different forces and bring that experience back, and I think then you can progress through the ranks yourself.
Deputy T.M. Pitman:
So, if I am understanding what you are saying correctly, you are proposing that a series of obviously planned secondments of short periods, that would be more manageable for someone with a family, I suppose. Is that a viable way to get that experience other than going away for 2 years, 5 years, as has been proposed in the past?
President of the Police Association:
I think it is. I think to ask anybody to go away for 2 years is very hard, especially if they have got a family. It is all right if somebody is single and they do not mind moving to the U.K. for 2 years. But to go away for 2 years in one stint is a long time for anyone to ask. But also it depends where you go. If you go to one particular force that is probably no busier than ... you know, you could go to a rural force that is not as busy Jersey can be; then what are you learning? Because I think if you have lots of tailor-made secondments to other forces, then that learning is going to help you come back.
Deputy T.M. Pitman:
Just being devil's advocate and asking some questions. I do not need an offensive one, but do you think there is any issue with perhaps local people in the force being in a sort of comfort zone, so they really do not want to go away to the U.K. to where I would imagine there are obviously going to be crimes we do not get here so much, thankfully? Are people sort of in a comfort zone? Does that deter them from going away to progress to the very top, do you think?
I think if somebody is keen to progress all the way through, then they will go away for whatever period is determined to go away for. You have, you know, some people who are in their comfort zone working here, but those are the people who, I would say, will not be seeking promotion any higher anyway, because they would be in their comfort zone doing whatever it is they are doing at the moment, and they will not want to come out of that comfort zone necessarily.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
We have asked if it is unrealistic. Do you think it is desirable to have all senior positions to be filled by local applicants?
President of the Police Association:
I think as an ultimate aim it would be desirable to have all positions, but I think whoever is going to hold the chief officer's role would have to have undertaken some form of senior command course, or have that senior command training experience in managing major investigations and supervising major investigations. You know, we have just seen what has gone on with one particular investigation and I do not think we would ever want to be in a situation where that happens again, because we may not have the right people or the right expertise to run something like that.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Yes, we have discussed that in terms of the Wiltshire report which did talk about certain officers lacking certain skills and how can they be brought into the force, albeit in a very atypical situation. Back to the issue of developing local staff: do you
believe in a small force you can operate what you might call a pool system? In other words, people who want to get on these programmes that you outlined earlier like the Modern Manager and so forth; they are put in a pool and it is made very clear to them: "Look, it is wonderful that you are doing this, but it is no guarantee of promotion." How easy is it? It is easy to run that in a big force, of course. People can go to other jobs if they do not work out; they do not have to move space. But in a small force it is much more difficult. Would you agree it is a more difficult thing to handle?
President of the Police Association:
It is, because when I first joined you hear the term sort of like dead man's shoes. That is exactly what it is. Sometimes you can wait a number of years even just to get to the rank of sergeant, and then after that you could be a lot longer; and if you have a pool of officers who are qualified for the next rank, then that pool could always get bigger, and it depends on where people are in that pool to come out. It was said that you go into this pool and if you happen to be in the right place at the right time, they will take you out and then you will get promoted - which is all very well, but if you are maybe one of the first people in that pool, but you do not happen to be in the right place at the right time, you can sit in that pool for a number of years; and then that is going to be demotivating for that person as well, if you see other people get promoted ahead of you. I think we used to have so many people who were taken to the next rank and it was in order; so you knew when you were going to get ... roughly you could work out when you were going to get promoted. But you have still got to be able to run the promotional process, and I think it is over the next 3 to 8 years we will lose a substantial amount of inspectors and sergeants; and have we got people at the moment qualified to fill that point? I do not think we have, because we have just literally used
up all our sergeants at the moment. We just held a sergeant promotion process; inspectors' ones are being held next week. So, it is encouraging people to seek promotion and take the exam in the first place.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Do you think it is ... this is a leading question which, since we are not a court of law, we can ask. Do you think it is not easy for a local person to say: "Oh, they have not promoted me because they do not like my face. They have got a bias. You know, we have had this hot shot chief officer or deputy chief from the U.K. and they have got these very big ideas, and they see me as some kind of a Parish pump officer, and they are not really allowing me to progress"? Does your membership sort of feel that that is a view?
President of the Police Association:
No, I do not think so at all. I think you could have that view quite easily without ... it does not matter where the chief officer comes from, you could have that quite easily with the way that certain people get promoted, and they encourage people underneath them who they have worked with through various departments to seek promotion; and if you have got a situation where your senior ranks have all come through the same area of the force, for example, crime services, then they will bring people who have been in crime services with them through promotion, and then you have got people who are in operation side or youth operation side who are saying: "Well, no, that is not fair. Because I have never had the opportunity of going there, and I do not fit in that particular camp, so now I cannot do it." That is quite often said. I do not think it has got anything to do with who is sitting in the top ten. I think if you have got to break down that sort of camp culture, if you have got a chief officer and a deputy chief officer who do not know individuals then it is a far fairer system when they do come to get promoted.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
We have obviously looked at recent events and we have looked at the specific question of whether any person would want to be chief officer given the bruising that they have seen people at either end of this controversy which Messrs. Warcup and Power received. How does the staff feel about that? Do they feel that the situation is recoverable? That there are still good opportunities within the Jersey Police Service?
President of the Police Association:
Yes. I think if you go back to the issue with Mr. Power and Mr. Harper, I think it would be probably fair to say it did not affect the morale so much of the operational officers in the C.I.D. (Criminal Investigation Department) because the majority of us were not involved in that investigation. So, if there have been failings then it is quite easy to say: "Well, it is not ours; it is theirs." I think the sad situation is where you do have some form of succession planning and you bring in the deputy chief officer who is then going to take over the role of chief officer and Mr. Power resigns, and he is going along that route, and then mistakes delay his appointment; that is where I think the news that Mr. Warcup was deciding not to stay probably had more of a detrimental affect on the whole force in that one statement than I think we have seen for a number of years.
Deputy T.M. Pitman:
I was going to ask that question, but to go along that line that we were discussing with you earlier, people who come to see us out of politics are obviously much closer in Jersey than it would be in the U.K. Is there any evidence from your experience that that also puts people off wanting to be at the top? As you said, we have just seen 2 examples where people have been in the public eye, hugely pressured, whatever the rights and wrongs are. Does that deter other people from saying: "I want to go for the top job"? Perhaps it is too soon to ask.
President of the Police Association:
I think, yes. I think from my point of view it would be if you go into that, or you seek to go to that job, you know what you are likely to come up against. That is the thing. I think we have seen it where, if you go as far back as David Parkinson, I remember, he ran up against the States quite early on and did not realise how much of their political interference, whether that is the right term, or how closely associated with the politics he was. I think we have seen it to some extent with every chief officer since then. I think if you are going into that role, then I think you have got to realise it is a very political role. But that can be alleviated by ... I mean the police authority is something to buffer the ...
Deputy T.M. Pitman:
So you would see that as a positive from the Unions point of view, that independent police authority.
President of the Police Association:
Yes, we would, and I think it is probably long overdue. There is a lot that has been said about political interference in policing and, you know, we see it and I think you then have a police authority, as I say, as a buffer where you are not going to have political interference all the time.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
You might have touched on this, but just to recap: does the force do all it can to maximise opportunities for local applicants while also best using outside candidates?
President of the Police Association:
I think at the moment, you know, there is ... and I do not think it is just something that is unique to Jersey. I think the whole police force in general is looking at ways of identifying people to go through the ranks and give them opportunity to go through the ranks. The N.P.I.A. (National Policing Improvement Agency) have just come out with almost like diplomas at the various ranks so that you can get qualifications, and that type of thing takes away probably the personalities involved in promotion boards. If somebody says: "I want to study for a diploma and become chief inspector," then what that should ... you know, if Jersey was to sign up to something like that then what that would mean is: "Well, you can go off and do the diploma" and then they stand a chance of receiving that rank, having gained a qualification.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Thank you; and then it came up in discussions with Mr. Taylor and the Minister in that there had been this period of stagnation about succession planning and now more programmes have been brought in to try and change that; and one issue about that is, from the Minister's point of view, it is seen as the police force at the time taking the initiative to change that and introduce these new mechanisms. I questioned the Minister that would it be beneficial to perhaps formalise this understanding so that we will not have a period where perhaps we will go back into a stagnation approach, and that in regards to succession planning and development training, most other things would continue? Do you think there would be any benefit on having some sort of formalised or perhaps better padded out way of making sure that that does occur?
President of the Police Association:
Yes, I think we slipped into a time where there was no training for senior constables. I mean, when I first joined once you finished your training during your probationary period, when you finished your probationary period it was called senior constables' courses, they then ran promotion sergeants' courses and I think they provided their own inspector - whether they did inspectors or not.
[15:45]
But something that unfortunately ... this really depends who is at the top, then, because if the chief officer of the day is very much somebody who had a background in training in that area, that type of area of the force, then they will be very pro training. If they have been more crime or operations, then when we are all looking at budget cuts and things, probably one of the first things that they have looked at is:
"Well, we can do away with the training on this and is there any benefit in this course?" which has been detrimental, because I think it is about 7 years we have not done any training, which is a long time, which has meant that people have had to do everything themselves. But the worry is the more budget cuts you have, what else is going to go and is training going to suffer again? I think, to get back to your question, it would have to be something you say: "You will do this and that is what is going to be there and budgeted for." It gets back to what I said originally about people going away for secondments to go to higher ranks. It is also very important to go away and do training courses in the U.K. Some of them you cannot do locally; you have to go away and do the training courses in the U.K. I think with every training course you build up contacts and network with people which is always helpful, because you never know when the situation is going to arise and pick the training up. But if we cut back training budgets too much, then it seems what we are saying is: "Well, we are not going to send people away on these training courses in the U.K. because they are too expensive" and that then falls by the wayside. So, you do not end up necessarily with trained staff at all levels to do what should be done.
Deputy T.M. Pitman:
Is that your opinion of how the force got into that situation with its many cutbacks that stopped the training taking place? Or was it just the person at the top or the committee of the day or whatever?
President of the Police Association:
No. I think it was when we were going through the fundamental spending review that it was seen that we can maybe cut back on the training for the senior constable. It was also where it is quite a draw on resources, your frontline operations are quite limited in numbers as they are now, to then take one or 2 people off a shift to go and spend a week in the classroom. It is not just one or 2 people off one shift, it is, you know, across all the shifts and therefore you are depleting the numbers further in order to do training, and that is something that has to be managed. But the trouble is training has suddenly just appeared on the system and people have been granted leave and you cannot cancel their leave, and that is where we end up with an issue where it becomes counterproductive because you are having to pay people overtime sometimes for a couple of those positions.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
There is no doubt in terms of the comprehensive spending it is fundamental. One of the big issues that are obviously going to affect your service is proposals re pensions and changes in retirement age. What is the view of your membership on those issues?
President of the Police Association:
I think 55 is where we are at now. I think to go any further than that is very difficult to work shifts at ... you know, what am I? I am 47; it is a struggle doing shifts at 47, so I would not like to think what it would be like at 55, or even if you have to go on to 60. But the organisation is not big enough to say: "Well, once you get to a certain age we will redeploy you somewhere else on to a day shift" because it just does not work that way. I would not like to see it go any higher. I think 55 is a maximum, because you will end up with probably people after that age probably getting ill or not even coming into work, and then going off sick. It would be very counterproductive.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
I intended to ask the Minister this but I forgot. Do you think that the differentials in salary, particularly at the top levels, are sufficient to give inducements to people? I mean, for example, the classic one is your deputy chief. They have seen what apparently has happened to Messrs. Warcup and Power, and they say: "No way, Jose. Why aspire to that position? I am earning very nice, thank you. What is £2,000 extra?" Do you think the differentials are sufficient to attract people?
President of the Police Association:
I think when you are talking about chief officer's salaries, I do not think there is much difference between ... in fact, I think if you look at Northumbrian Police, the chief constable's job there is considerably more than the chief constable's, chief officer's position over here - which is probably in fact one of the only salaries, I think, where, you know, you cannot draw that comparison. But I did express a concern that ... we were all expressing concerns to Mr. Warcup. When it was going to be advertised, we said: "Well, who is going to want it?" So, the fact that he will have applied for it I suppose speaks for itself.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Okay. Anything else?
Deputy T.M. Pitman:
It is a bit off the wall in a way, but with your perspective of the Union, is there ever a concern that with outside applicants you are going to get someone who really is coming to Jersey for a sort of quiet life? You know, it is not Northside, or it is not St. Paul's or Bristol or whatever. Is that ever a concern? Or are you always confident that people are coming here for the right reason? They want to do something or re- energise the force, or ...?
President of the Police Association:
I think it is always a concern. I think that is a concern in any organisation, not necessarily the police force. But, yes, I think you will always have concerns someone might be coming here for a quiet life, because it is generally what we seem to do is we employ somebody who is at the end of their career; whereas in the U.K. people do move from force to force at different ranks to gain that experience, and I think, you know, if you were to say you accept somebody for a position of chief officer who may not necessarily have been a deputy officer somewhere else, or an assistant, but could have been a chief superintendent or something, or that sort of level rank, then they might see it as: "Well, it would be quite good to come for 5 or 6 years, because that will enhance my C.V. (curriculum vitae) and then go back to the U.K. and seek a position somewhere else." I think what we tend to see is people come to Jersey and it is almost like their last posting, and then they are going back to retire or try and stave off housing qualifications.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
We will not go down that path. We have covered a lot of ground. But I should have asked you at the very beginning: which part of the force does your Association represent? The whole lot?
President of the Police Association:
All ranks up to the rank of, and including, superintendent. So it is the whole force.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
It is really the whole force. Okay; good. Your Association does take stands on issues like this. The members have got views and they convey them to you?
President of the Police Association:
Yes. We have a Committee of Management and we meet ... we normally try and do it every 5 weeks, or if there are any issues and concerns. So if it is an email, we will address those emails. Also the Association is represented on the Force Policy Group, so we have a say in policies that are being implemented in the force. I have to say that the Association probably has received a lot more support from Mr. Warcup, and he has been far more open than has been previously, which has given us a lot more say in issues and, you know, confront things head on and address them a lot quicker. I think we went through some not so good times with ... not so much with Mr. Power, it was more with Mr. Harper in his position, and I think the force took some big backward steps because of the fact that there was this culture of bullying and harassment from the senior management. But I think Mr. Warcup has done an awful lot to break down those barriers and get the force back to a force where people feel free to speak up and say: "I am not happy about something." I think before if you did that, like you said earlier, you were out - like lost and found property.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay. We have covered a lot of ground. Are there any other thoughts or final thoughts you have on the issue of succession planning, how it is handled? Do you feel we have got the right grasp of the issue? Is there any way you wish to correct that or whatever?
No; I think everything you have asked is very fair. I think, as I say, we have had all these great plans in place, succession planning, and then it all has come off the rails a little bit. What the force desperately needs at this time is a period of stability. We have got 3 acting chief inspectors, 2 acting superintendents, an acting deputy chief officer and an acting chief officer. In 28 years I have never known a situation where we have had so many actors at the senior level. That needs to be resolved as soon as possible.
Deputy T.M. Pitman:
I was just going to ask what you think of our Minister for Home Affairs. [Laughter] You can tell me later.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Anyway, I would like to thank you. I think it has been very important that we heard from you, and you have been very candid in your evidence. It has been a very revealing and interesting Scrutiny. So, thank you very much indeed for coming.
[15:56]