Financial management of Operation Rectangle - Mr R. Sorda - transcript - 15 July 2011

STATES OF JERSEY

Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Issues surrounding of the Review of Financial Management of Operation Rectangle

FRIDAY, 15th JULY 2011

Panel:

Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier (Chairman) Deputy D.J.A. Wimberley of St. Mary Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour

Witness:

M. R. Sorda

Also present:

Mr. M. Haden (Scrutiny Officer)

[12.54]

Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier (Chairman):

For the record, because we are being recorded, I must ask that you have seen the oath.

Mr. R. Sorda: Yes.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Are you happy with that? As I say, it is just that you do not tell us anything you know to not be true.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Okay, Mr. Sorda, so to begin with can you explain what led you to begin investigating the issues around this review?  [Interruption]

Mr. R. Sorda:

It all started on the ... I had seen an interview on voiceforchildren.blogspot.com with Lenny Harper and the question was asked: "Were you asked about your financial management through Operation Rectangle?" Mr. Harper replied: "No." He had not been contacted, which ... When I heard that, I just was like: "That is not right," because I remembered the BDO Alto report when it came out and the lavish lifestyle of Lenny Harper in the J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post). So I went and obtained a copy of the BDO Alto report and started looking at it and I realised something was not quite right. That is basically how I came to be looking at BDO.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

I am sure you will enlarge on that, but what are the key issues at this review that should be addressed?

Mr. R. Sorda:

I just found it absolutely incredible that Lenny Harper was not interviewed by BDO. I just thought: "How can you come to conclusions without asking the main man?" because after reading their

report, obviously, I was aware that they had interviewed members of the States of Jersey Police, Home Affairs, and 2 outside contractors. Now, I just found it really strange how they came to conclusions without interviewing Mr. Harper, but also if you are interviewing serving police officers, not to go against their integrity and all that, but it just did not seem the right way of going around things. If you are working in the States of Jersey police and you know of all the publicity surrounding Operation Rectangle, are you in a position where you can say what you really want to say? It was that sort of line that got me looking at the whole issue.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

So you had concerns about why the evidence was ...

Mr. R. Sorda:

Yes, especially because the main man had not been interviewed.

Deputy R.G Le Hérrisier:

Okay, building on that, Mr. Sorda, you mention that you were very surprised that the main participant, so to speak, was not interviewed. Were there other issues that you thought should be addressed?

Mr. R. Sorda:

It was just the way it was brought to the public, because obviously I was not present when [the Minister] gave his presentation in May 2010 to States Members. I do not think it was transcribed, because it was not a State sitting as such.

Deputy R.G Le Hérrisier: In camera. No, that is fine.

Mr. R. Sorda:

So obviously I am not sure how he brought the report to his fellow States Members, but I am fully aware of how it was portrayed in the media, especially Jersey Evening Post. I was also fully aware of how Channel TV, the award-winning Channel TV piece came about and I have watched that. At the end, it just did not look right. I was just thinking: "Why is no one asking any questions about any of this? No one is asking any questions. Everyone is just like: Oh, there it is'."

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

You obviously made no claims to be an expert, whatever expert was.

Mr. R. Sorda: I am not.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Your position in coming to this, really, is just as a concerned member of the public.

[13.00]

Mr. R. Sorda:

Absolutely, and because I knew the reports were used, in my opinion, to trash the child abuse investigation.

Deputy R.G Le Hérrisier:

We know you have been quite active in trying to get answers, maybe because you think the system is not very good at following up. Can you outline to us what steps you have taken on your own initiative in trying to get answers to these - what you perceive to be - injustices and so forth?

Yes, I have emailed the Minister for Home Affairs, and he has been forthcoming. Originally, the very first outset, he was forthcoming and obviously, as it started developing, all ties were broken. My only way really of getting the information I was seeking was by doing exactly what BDO did not do and that was contact Mr. Harper. When I contacted Mr. Harper, I said: "Look, I have seen your interview with Voice for Children and I realise you are saying you have not been interviewed concerning the financial aspects of Operation Rectangle. Why did BDO Alto not contact you?" He just said to me: "Who are BDO Alto?" Straight away I am like: "Okay, we have got a problem."

Deputy R.G Le Hérrisier:

Of course, the Minister for Home Affairs will be here later in the afternoon, so obviously we will put questions to him. You said matters dried up when you were in contact with the Minister for Home Affairs. Why do you think this happened?

Mr. R. Sorda:

Because I was asking the questions I do not think he felt comfortable answering, or maybe he did not feel he legally could, or was dealing with a member of the public, especially myself who operated a blog. Maybe he just thought: "I do not want to appear on the blog." I cannot ... I am second guessing. I do not know. You would have to ask him, basically. I send the email. He does not reply. Why? Although, on a separate issue, he did say when I have asked issues concerning Graham Power, very prevalent interviews, he just said: "I am not replying to you, because you are rude" or whatever.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Yes, you mentioned the media and, of course, you are part of the media. I think you are part of the media.

Mr. R. Sorda:

That is a grey area, is it not?  [Laughter]

The Deputy of St. Mary : According to some people.

Mr. R. Sorda:

I am a ... Yes, I suppose I could describe myself as a civilian investigator.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

You are certainly a notch above the News of the World, who were accredited media.

Mr. R. Sorda:

I just do what I do. I do not know where that lies. I just look at the evidence, follow the evidence, ask the questions.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Yes, I just want to explore the media a little bit with you. I am going to be as tough on you as I have been on everybody else.

Mr. R. Sorda: Absolutely.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Would you agree that sometimes you jump to conclusions on the blog?

Mr. R. Sorda:

Yes, but my conclusions are based on all the evidence I can obtain, which from one side of the aspect - say Graham Power, Lenny Harper - I have asked proper questions of them and they have

been forthcoming in giving me replies, which you know. Then if I go to the other side - I would say Home Affairs - then it is a different story. It is harder to get information from the Ministers.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Yes, well, the example I had in mind was about the date of the engagement letter and you went in quite hard saying: "Oh look, they were engaged and 5 days later it is in the Mail."

Mr. R. Sorda: Yes.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

You kind of make quite a lot of that and then it turns out that they were engaged months before. I know it is misleading, so what is your take on that?

Mr. R. Sorda:

From inquiries, I sometimes know that afterwards I have found out that sometimes engagement letters can be signed after the initial work starts. Like was explained this morning, obviously there has been contact between the parties, but the engagement letter ... if they had started their work in April 2009, the engagement letter was not finally signed until 29th September. Did everyone know what terms of reference they were working to? Did everyone know exactly what they were doing before that final engagement letter was signed? It was still up in the air, from what I heard this morning.

Deputy R.G Le Hérrisier:

It might be worth looking at both versions. I have not done that myself yet. On the other matter of the way the media in general - the mainstream media - react to these things, would you care to comment on how they interplay with things like BDO Alto report?

Mr. R. Sorda:

Yes, I do not know if you heard, but I went to the library and dug out their archive, 15th July J.E.P. press release, story, whatever you call it. I do not know if you have done that, but I thought I had better go do it. There you go, the front page of the J.E.P. 15 "Celebrity lifestyle of Lenny Harper and his officers", meals in top class restaurants on taxpayers' expenses. We have got first class on the Gatwick Express, London restaurants. That is how they portrayed it. Did they do any work? It is like: "There you go. Okay, we will put it on the front page." Did they do any research? Did they ask any questions? That was in May 2010. If we are really going to look at the media side of this, then we have to look at the award-winning Channel Television episodes that went out on 1st and 3rd September 2009. In those 2 programmes, [retired D/Superintendent] was interviewed, quite professionally, I must add, because it is not normal. Normally, Channel TV, you get 2 minutes or 30 seconds on the couch and that is it, but this was done quite professionally for their standards. It was quite interesting listening to the pieces they had done, because [retired D/Superintendent] does not actually refer to the BDO report in those 2 pieces. The actual person who is quoting the BDO or the information that turned up in the BDO is the reporter. I believe it is Hannah Collier, who I think did the pieces. Who gave her the information? As far as I am concerned, journalists do their ... they have their sources and all the rest of it and they want to do a story, but obviously someone has leaked her the information, because what she was quoting was not public.

Deputy R.G Le Hérrisier:

Is there any way you can get that to us - a video?

Mr. R. Sorda:

Yes. That was in September. That was a month before the [Mail on Sunday] article which came out on 5th October 2009. The award-winning Channel TV [Interruption] [Laughter] Yes, so September. They came out a month before the [Mail on Sunday] article. Channel TV came out with this.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

The big issue - and you have had the benefit of sitting in the audience, I know - the big bone of contention is the objectivity of this review and whether not having Mr. Harper there impacted on that. Now, it is not for me to comment on that with you, but being involved in what you are, citizens' media, whatever you want to call yourself, were there any other issues or incidents that began to make you think questions need to be asked here, because the objectivity has got to be examined?

Mr. R. Sorda:

Yes, no, absolutely, I just think that from my limited knowledge, if you are going to do any report ... I mean, the whole Operation Rectangle child abuse is a huge, huge issue. It is not like counting fag ends or something out on the street. It is a big, big story, so I would like to think everyone would be independent. I was quite shocked to hear this morning that [Police Consultant] knew [retired D/Superintendent] for 25 years before he turns up on the doorstep and has worked alongside him doing a report. I find it is quite extraordinary. Also, I do know someone who worked on the BDO Alto report. This is just something that goes back a long time ago, which I did not think much of at the time. I just knew someone who was working on it, but I was also a bit alarmed that they were on an anti-Lenny-Harper website.

Deputy T.M. Pitman: Anti-Lenny-Harper website.

Mr. R. Sorda:

Yes, it was actually on a Facebook group that was started in 2008 and it went under the name of Lenny Harpic. The person who I knew to be working on the BDO report was actually a member of that group, which is not really ...

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Can I ask how did you come to know that? Was that something that came up by chance or volunteered to you or ...?

Mr. R. Sorda:

No, obviously, I met this gentleman. We went out. We chat. We talked politics. He informed me that he was working on a review for financial auditors on the financial aspects of Lenny's spending and whatever. Then as I do, going through research and that, I came across this Lenny Harpic Facebook site and there he was. He was on it. This is something that was going back to ... this group was from 2008[1].

The Deputy of St. Mary :

He could not be on there for research purposes, could he?

Mr. R. Sorda: No.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

No. I do not know how Facebook ...

Mr. R. Sorda:

No, I do not know how. I am just telling you. I do not know how big an issue that is. For professional integrity and all the rest of it, not a clever move. He might have ... Everyone has opinion on everything, but for professional integrity you should not really be joining groups about someone that you are looking into.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

I guess you would probably say that that was a conflict of interest, because we have heard that BDO and other firms in these things do conflict of interest checks.

Mr. R. Sorda:

Yes, I was quite ... yes, absolutely. It is just the whole professional integrity, is it not?

Deputy R.G Le Hérrisier:

It strikes me from a lot of the comments you made: do you think it is possible in a small society where ultimately it seems everybody is linked to everybody in some way or another to ever deal objectively with these issues or do we always have to go outside and get apparently independent people?

Mr. R. Sorda:

It comes down to checks and balances really and the vetting. Is even the vetting done properly? Surely, going back to [Police Consultant], you are bringing in someone to work on this review, say. Surely, in the world of policing in the UK, there was someone who had not worked or known [retired D/Superintendent] for 25 years. Surely, there must have been someone they could bring in who has no ties to any part of the ... It cannot be that hard, surely. Yet, this happened.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Even in saying that, you are talking really about for appearance's sake, at least. He may have been completely above board, but from the perception - is what you are saying - it ...

Mr. R. Sorda:

That has got to be a major point, surely. It is an independent report, yes, but if you look behind it, it all seems to be a bit of a mess. From what I have heard this morning, I have got to say I was quite shocked at what I heard this morning - quite shocked.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Would you apply the same standard to Lenny Harper himself? You have read [Police Consultant]'s submission, I ...

Mr. R. Sorda:

No, I have not. I have not got a copy.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

No, okay, because it is quite recent here. What he says here is he is talking about [Police Consultant] knowing [retired D/Superintendent], and he is getting in a tizz because he is saying Harper does not apply the same standards to himself because he contacted the guy who ended up as his mentor. I think the suggestion is that he contacted him because he knew him or because there was some kind of association before. I assume it is all verbatim, but I am not sure. He asked this officer to come to Jersey to act as his mentor and then dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. He was his mentor and review officer. How come Harper can do that and allow himself to do that when he is criticising someone else for doing it?

Mr. R. Sorda:

Do we know that is fact?

The Deputy of St. Mary :

That is what [Police Consultant] is saying.

Mr. R. Sorda:

All right. I would have to check that. I cannot take that as fact because I know, when the review team - I cannot remember the right term as what they were - 3 of them came in, the mentors came in, [AB] was the lead. I have never heard or read anywhere before about Lenny Harper knowing [AB], so I would have to check that.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

If there were a situation like that where the mentor was known to the officer he was mentoring, would you think that was satisfactory?

[13.15]

Mr. R. Sorda:

No. I would have to, again ... You have to investigate it, do you not? You have to ask the question, get the reply and then you go from there. You work ... Again, when I say ... I do not know where [Police Consultant] got that from, because I have never heard, read or seen anything, and I think I have pretty much seen everything that is blowing around, so that must be something that has come from behind the scenes somewhere. I am surprised, to be honest. When I heard [Police Consultant] say that, I was very surprised that [the Minister] has never brought that up in any ... You know when he had the big scandal. [AB] was ... He thought he was conflicted, because he had applied for a job. Yes, so I am surprised the Senator. I am surprised he would not have used that saying, you know: "Lenny Harper knew [AB]", if it is [AB] we are talking about, but I think it must be. You have to research it, do you not? I have not taken it at face value that, because [Police Consultant] said that, that is ...

The Deputy of St. Mary :

I think the criticism is that the approach came from ... It was not like one of these blind application processes. I think the criticism was that someone was approached and they came. There is another case in the Alto report of a much smaller fish coming over because he was invited over as part of the extra 12 they needed to boost the numbers after the JAR/6 and the media announcement. I think the question is: what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander and I think you would agree with that; if we are talking about open applications, then you do not just go out and ...

Mr. R. Sorda:

I do not think it is quite that simple though. To be honest, I do not think it is that simple.

The Deputy of St. Mary : It is an important issue.

Mr. R. Sorda:

Yes, it is a very important issue, but I just do not think it is as simple as how you just said it. I think you have to look. You have to take cases for what they are and what aspect they have been used in for calling people in. If Lenny Harper or Graham Power, when they called in the - I cannot remember the right term - when the 3 mentors came in ...

Deputy R.G Le Hérrisier:

Was it the A.C.P.O. (Association of Chief Police Officers) group?

Mr. R. Sorda:

Yes, the A.C.P.O. peer group. Now, what I would be asking is: if Mr. Harper has asked for mentoring, did he go to the A.C.P.O. review group and they supplied the mentors, or did Lenny Harper give a wish list? That is what I would have to be ... That is what I would be asking. I would ask A.C.P.O.: "Okay, how did you go about sending mentors over?" [AB] is very highly respected. In their view, they sent over the most qualified person for the job, but then ...

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Can I take you back a few questions? Now, I am not going to ask you for the name of the person you say you have met who worked on that, but obviously it is something that I would imagine we

would want to pursue. How confident are you of that information? If we pursue it, will we be able to verify it, because obviously that is important so we can clarify whether there were any conflicts?

Mr. R. Sorda:

The only way you would do it is I can give you the name of the individual[2]. You can keep it to yourselves and ask BDO to supply the names of who worked on their report. I think he said it was 2.  Did they use outside ...? He did not really say. Did they use outside consultants or something? Did they bring people in? I do not know. BDO Alto is just a name. Did they outsource their work? I do not know.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

How did this conversation, this revelation, come about then? How did he come to talk about this in the person ...?

Mr. R. Sorda:

Because of political views, as you do. You go out. Everyone has a view on everything. Now I met this chap through one of the forums, Planet Jersey. As you do, you meet up. You have got - okay, I knew straight away his view was conflicting to mine, which I quite like, because I quite like to meet people who have a different viewpoint. It is the only way of testing yourself, really, as against people who have a different viewpoint to yourself, so it is almost like having a devil's advocate or something. We went out and he just said: "Oh, I am working on this financial review, BDO." Over the head, because it was early doors back then. I did not really know: "Oh right, yes." I knew his views were different to mine, but then everyone is allowed to have ...

Deputy R.G Le Hérrisier:

I wondered if I could come back to the questions you asked the Minister. You said the relationship dried up and he said words to the effect that you had been rude - I think you said. When you were carrying out your interchanges with him, what were you doing? Were you asking him a series of factual questions? Were you putting hypotheses to him and saying: "I think this happened. What do you think?" What were you doing?

Mr. R. Sorda:

Absolutely, absolutely, because of the way this was set up, the scope was not to ... I do not really want to go down the Wiltshire road, because that is not really what you are about, but then the issues are all entwined. Everything was in time. You cannot get away with it. It is all there. Now, what I said to [the Minister] - and it is in my video one on the Voice for Children. It was quite sinful. He put allegations to Graham Power. Graham Power challenged the allegations. [The Minister] dropped the allegations and, as soon as Graham Power had left the Island, [the Minister] is in the J.E.P. bringing out the same allegations. Now, I challenged them on that. I said: "How are you doing that? Why?" I said: "Why are you doing that?" He, to this day, has not given me an answer.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

For the record, those are the allegations about bullying in the police.

Mr. R. Sorda:

It is, yes, yes. There is a bigger picture here. There is a bigger picture. It came out this morning. You have your work cut out.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

The question to ask leading on from that is: what outcomes do you expect this review to achieve?

Mr. R. Sorda:

Well, that is changing daily, I would say. After hearing submissions or the evidence given this morning, my own opinion is you have a whole can of worms here, because what I heard this morning

is [retired D/Superintendent], who was senior investigating officer of the historical child abuse investigation was leaking information to [journalist], a known child abuse denier, working for the Mail on Sunday. You have got to ask yourself: "What is going on?" What is going on? Why has the Acting Chief of Police got a number 2 that is out of control? Was there any investigation? Did he pull him in?

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

I think at the time there was.

Mr. R. Sorda:

There was a brief police investigation into the leak, but that is all we know. That was [the Minister] who gave that information out and there was a brief investigation.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Do you know if there were any details on that?

Mr. R. Sorda:

No, because it sort of changed then, because [the Minister] said there is a police investigation, but then also in the States Chamber: "My own department had carried out an investigation" as to Deputy Pitman's questions around those in the States. That is when he said: "It was my own officers that carried out an investigation into the leak and all those point to it being [retired D/Superintendent]." You have to remember, this is the senior investigating officer on a child abuse investigation and he is leaking information. In my book, that is pretty serious.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Getting back to the question: the outcome you hope to see from this, because you appreciate we are not reopening the whole, what are your hopes?

Mr. R. Sorda:

My hopes are you look at this objectively, as I know you will. You have got to be totally impartial. You just have to look at the evidence and then basically, as a member of the public, I am in your hands as to what conclusions you come up with. Now, I might not agree with what you come up with, but you just have to get all the evidence together and see what you come up with. At the moment, I have to tell you, I am in shock at what I heard this morning. I really am. If the Acting Chief Police Officer has given you a submission, which has totally been contradicted by [Police Consultant] this morning, this is serious stuff. To me, this is serious, serious stuff. The Acting Chief Police Officer and the Deputy Superintendent releasing information, giving conflicting replies to what we have heard this morning. That is pretty serious, serious, especially when you look at the allegations levelled at Graham Power and Lenny Harper, what is good for the goose and all that. What is going on? What is going on? No one is asking any questions. Why are the media not asking these questions? Why am I sitting here? I should not be sitting here. This should be the Jersey media or our journalists doing this work, not a member of the public who has to face anything that comes of it.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Just to jump back, Deputy Hérissier asked you about how your approach for information, for answers, had gone with the Minister. What about BDO Alto?

Mr. R. Sorda:

I never contacted BDO Alto.

Deputy T.M. Pitman: You never contacted them.

The reason I never contacted BDO Alto is because Mr. Harper contacted them straight away. As soon as I brought up the issue of BDO Alto, he must have read it, because within hours BDO Alto had received emails from Lenny Harper and BDO Alto's reply was: "We cannot engage with you, Mr. Harper. You need to engage with the Home Affairs Department because they were the ones who commissioned the report. That was the end of the contact. That was just my own opinion. I did not think there was any point going down that road. If they are not going to talk to the main man, they are not going to talk to a blogger.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

In fairness to them, to BDO Alto, it is a confused picture on whether they have outwardly made attempts to speak to Mr. Harper. You accept that, I would imagine, from what you have heard today.

Mr. R. Sorda:

Yes, when I heard the Managing Director, my gut instinct and opinion was that they were absolutely truthful in what they were saying. It came across to me they absolutely wanted to talk to Mr. Harper. The question would be asked is: why were they not? Did they not say that Wiltshire did not ...? Because of the ongoing Wiltshire ... Is there any case law on that? What is that based on? Is it just based on: "Oh no, you cannot talk to him"? Is it actually based on some kind of law? Obviously, Mr. Harper is a civilian now. I know [Police Consultant] said it still applies to ex-police officers, but where is the law? What is it based on? What was it based on? I do not know.

Deputy R.G Le Hérrisier:

More to wrap up, Mr. Sorda: you have given the initial concerns that have led to this scrutiny; are there any other concerns that you think ... As we said, we do not want to get into the whole thing for obvious reasons, but are there any other issues that you feel we need to look at, aside from what you today.

Mr. R. Sorda:

Yes, yes, I do want to bring it up that [Police Consultant] this morning said that Wiltshire gave him a copy of Lenny Harper's Wiltshire statement. Now, Lenny Harper, as far as I know, I do not know if he has given it over to you lot, but has said Wiltshire has flatly denied handing over his statement to BDO and I think he had a signed solicitor's letter also with that. Now, whether that is: "We did not give it to BDO, but we gave it to [Police Consultant], who we did not think was there," this is ... but that has to be looked at because I think there is a grey area. Does anyone know what [Police Consultant] was actually doing? He has been pulled in. There are terms of reference and: "I have not seen that. I have seen that."

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

I think my colleagues may wish to correct me, I think what [Police Consultant] was saying was they approached Wiltshire, Wiltshire then took legal advice and on the basis of that legal advice they apparently released Mr. Harper's statements.

The Deputy of St. Mary : No, they allowed him to see it.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Well, they allowed him to see it, yes.

Mr. R. Sorda:

You will have to check with Mr. Harper. I think that is contradictory to what I have been led to believe. I know he is away but obviously you can contact him next week. I have to say I do not feel comfortable doing this today, coming before you and all the rest of it and I do not think I should but I think it just flags up what is lacking in Jersey as in our media.

[13:30]

Media is very big in the spotlight at the moment and I think for the sake of everything, I mean for Jersey and that, we need somebody to start asking questions. It is a priority on this; it cannot carry on the way it is. The members of the public have got to be doing this, are doing it under my name and it can take its toll. You get some nasty stuff really but you do it for the right reasons and I do it mainly because of the child abuse.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

In fairness to Scrutiny it was absolutely imperative that we bring you in and put you on the spot.

Mr. R. Sorda:

That is why I am here.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Just like everyone else and ...

Mr. R. Sorda:

I feel that because it was me that raised the issues of the whole BDO Alto Report it would be wrong for me not to come here because I am the one who has raised the issues; no point shouting if you are not prepared to back it up.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

For the record and I do not think it is confidential; what [Police Consultant] said about the Wiltshire statement is it was not Lenny Harper's statement, it was a written record of the interview, which I gathered went on to that, in the form of a draft statement, so presumably they wrote it up, a kind of condensed version, that had not been approved by Lenny or anybody and that was the draft that [Police Consultant] eventually got permission to seek.

Mr. R. Sorda:

That makes it sound even worse.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

What I am pointing out is that it is not a statement by Lenny Harper, just for the record but that is not reads in here.

Mr. R. Sorda:

Yes, yes, yes. I mean again, yes, it is all in wording.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

There is a difference that it is a resume of a long discussion written by Wiltshire and it is a draft.

Mr. R. Sorda:

I mean the issues are there, it is ...

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Yes, this is the same issue but whether that is properly released ...

Mr. R. Sorda:

Yes but I have to see, as a Scrutiny Panel, what you come up with because from what I have heard now, what everybody says, what I have heard this morning, even though you probably would not like to hear it, I think we are only at the beginning.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

I do not want to hear that now.

Mr. R. Sorda:

No, I know but no, because there are a lot, a lot of issues.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

But in fairness, Mr. Sorda, without the Scrutiny Panel being in place none of this would have been coming out.

Mr. R. Sorda:

Absolutely, this is to me ... I mean I am not an expert on Scrutiny or anything but what I have seen, I have not been to Scrutiny or a hearing before and that but this is what I would expect Scrutiny to be; listening to the evidence on some very, very serious issues and in an impartial way come to your conclusion.  I would not ... that for me is how it should be done; that is how it should work surely, if you look at the evidence and put it together.  But I do think that we are at the beginning.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Okay. Are there any other points you want to make before we wind up?

Mr. R. Sorda:

I have got probably a million and one points in my head but ...

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Well, we can always have you back.

Mr. R. Sorda:

I just know but, yes, I mean I have to digest what was said this morning because so much came up and it is fast flowing and after waiting for the transcripts, look at the transcripts and see ... look at that, sit back and look at it, what is being said and do probably what you are going to do and see if it all matches up.  But I am not going on but I want to say one more time, after what I heard this morning we are only at the beginning.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

We are at the end in the sense that it will be the end of the session fairly soon so it might be for other people.

Mr. R. Sorda:

Yes and if you need to call me back and ask me anything again I have got no problems with that, no problems at all.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Okay. With that I will thank you for your evidence and end of session. Thank you.

Mr. R. Sorda:

No, thank you. Cheers.

[13.34]

[1]

 This information was investigated by the Sub Panel. The Sub Panel was informed that the individual in question has never worked for BDO Alto.

[2]

 This information was investigated by the Sub Panel. The Sub Panel was informed that the individual in question has never worked for BDO Alto.