Policing of Parks and Beaches - Minister for Education Sport & Culture and Environment - Transcript - 18 February 2011

STATES OF JERSEY

Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Policing of Parks and Beaches Sub-Panel

FRIDAY, 18th FEBRUARY 2011

Panel:

Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour (Chairman) Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade

Deputy D.J. De Sousa of St. Helier

Witnesses:

Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture) Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour (Assistant Minister for Environment) Dr. L. Magris (Assistant Director for Environmental Policy)

Mr. C. Chipperfield (Business Manager for Schools and Colleges)

Also in attendance:

Ms. E. Liddiard (Scrutiny Officer)

[14:02]

Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour (Chairman):

Good afternoon and welcome to this sub-panel hearing of the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel which is looking into the policing of beaches and parks. I think everyone here has been before Scrutiny before. Just to make sure that they are aware of their rights, and if you are not sure then it is before you so you can double check. We have had a request for the media to be able to film today, however, in line with our protocols, that has not been supported by the witnesses here today and, therefore, that will not be allowed.

Member of the Public:

Can you just confirm that is both of the witnesses or all the witnesses?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

One witness has declined and, therefore, keeping in line with our protocol, we will not be allowing filming.

Member of the Public:

Could you possibly give me any reason?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I am sorry, you are interrupting the transcript and the hearing. That is not appropriate and you are aware of that.

Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade : Jeremy, who is the

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I believe we had a decline from the Minister for Education Sport and Culture.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: That is correct.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

So, carrying on with that, also we must send our apologies from the Constable of St. Helier , Simon Crowcroft . He is unfortunately at another meeting today and is not able to attend but sends his apologies. In which case, just for the transcript, we would like to introduce ourselves for the recording and, therefore, I will start. I am Chairman of this sub-panel, Deputy Jeremy Maçon of St. Saviour .

Deputy M. Tadier :

I am Deputy Montfort Tadier of St. Brelade .

Deputy D.J. De Sousa of St. Helier : Deputy Debbie De Sousa from St. Helier .

Ms. E. Liddiard (Scrutiny Officer): Elizabeth Liddiard, Scrutiny Officer.

Business Manager for Schools and Colleges:

Cliff Chipperfield, Business Manager for Schools and Colleges.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Deputy James Reed, Minister for Education, Sport and Culture.

Assistant Minister for Environment:

Deputy Rob Duhamel, Assistant Minister for Environment.

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

Louise Magris, Assistant Director for Environmental Policy.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Welcome to you and welcome to members of the public, and we have Linda recording the transcript. If we can begin, our first question is based on the principles of the Eco- Active Scheme within the school community so if either the Assistant Minister or the officer could address that question.

Assistant Minister for Environment:

I am happy for the officer to address the principles of the scheme and I am batting any further questions.

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

Thank you very much. Thank you for asking us along and for particularly focusing on the Eco-Active Sustainable Schools Framework as a sort of underpinning principle for some of the environmental education that we are giving young people in schools today. The framework was picked out as a priority in the Strategic Plan and it is something that we have worked up with schools over the last 18 months and we launched last year. It is a framework that takes into account principles of sustainability and drives them through the school curriculum in 3 ways. I wonder if it is appropriate if I can show you the framework poster, which I know is probably not going to work very well for the transcript but perhaps if I can use it now it will help a little bit. This is the Eco-Active Schools Plan. You can see it is something that is very colourful and designed to be used within the schools. It revolves around the 8 doorways, as we call them, that drive the 3 key areas of campus, community and curriculum. So we have 8 doorways here: food and drink, energy and water, buildings and grounds, taking part, travel and traffic, purchasing and waste, global dimension and local environment. What we have done is we have partnered with the schools and, in particular, the N.G.O. (Non-Government Organisation) section, who for a long time have been providing environmental and sustainable information for schools. We have brought that into a framework which allows schools to build in sustainability as part of their daily learning and, in particular, through the curriculum, through the community and through the campus. Obviously relevant to today's particular topic there is a lot of information about giving children an understanding and appreciation for their local environment and their community around them. So, clearly that is important with what we are talking about today, because what we would be hoping that what children are learning through their teachers and through the supporting groups is that they have got to show respect for their natural environment and community open spaces, for example. The Sustainable Schools Plan allows schools to join into the Eco-Active Schools Framework and they were able to come together with an action plan and apply for funding to carry out sustainable activities within schools. They can get grants for things like school nature gardens or composting bins or perhaps a project area that they might be interested in and that could be any part of the many areas that this encompasses. Then they are able to go on from that. Once they are have completed their projects and shown some specific action, they are able to sign up for the Eco-Schools, which is an international accreditation scheme that is run in the U.K. and beyond, and they carry on learning through these 8 doorways, taking part and measuring the progress that they are making in those different areas that they choose to focus on. The important thing about this is that we provide the framework for teachers to deliver this but it is not just about the teachers delivering the work, it is about schools getting a school committee in place and getting the children or students on board and coming forward with their ideas of interest as well. So, it is very much driven from the schools, which again is

where we really hope that they are taking those messages out into the community and we hear a lot about children going home to the parents and giving them the sorts of messages that we hope that they are taking on board as well. So, one would hope that some of the children are learning about respect for their local environment, again bringing it back to today's subject, and perhaps telling their parents and family friends about the way that they would be hoping that people would be behaving in important areas like beaches, for example. The idea then is that the children can take their school through the Eco-Schools journey and become accredited to the Eco-Schools standards, of which there are 3, and they can work their way to the top of that scheme. So, what we are doing is providing a route in and, in particular, bringing together all the different areas where the N.G.O. community have been providing a lot of support for schools and we are giving them a framework within which schools can find them. I have brought some of the Eco-Schools packs. These are the packs that go out to the schools and in these packs - obviously I will not go through them in detail - it shows the 8 doorways and it gives contacts for all the N.G.O. areas for them to be able to get in touch with specific people and find out about a subject of interest. For example, I am just opening it here at "Purchasing and Waste" and, here we go for example, very obviously popping up is "Recycle for Jersey" and the Assistant Recycling Officer who is clearly going to be doing an awful lot of work with children in that particular subject area and also there are some contacts here at random for the Jersey Fair Trade Group as well and they deliver talks and resource packs into schools. What I am really getting across to you here is that we have quite a wide campaign, if you like, that schools can sign up to. The good news is 19 local schools have already signed up; of the ones that have not signed up yet, there are others we know are in train getting ready to sign up. So it is not that they just ignored it as far as we understand and we are continually working with those schools to find out what the barriers are for them and helping them get on board. Finally, just to finish off where we are with this, we launched this back last year and last September we ran a training scheme for the local schools and - I am just looking at my notes here - 20 local teachers from 17 schools attended the training session about becoming an Eco-Active school so there was a lot of interest in this. Teachers felt that it was very much appealing to the sorts of things that they are being asked to deliver in the school environment, so we hope that we are helping them to do that and that we are also providing the N.G.O.s to speak to the schools through this platform in a more organised fashion (perhaps organised is not the right word, but I think you can understand where I am coming from) to get those messages out to the schools and ensure that the schools and the N.G.O. community and ourselves are all working together in the most positive way. I have focused on the N.G.O.s and I will just finish off by saying of course there is a lot of work from the other States departments as well. For example, the Health Promotion Officers play a key role in these sorts of activities and they are plugged into this work. Recycling Officer I have mentioned, Environment and clearly lots of areas through Education Sport and Culture as well are involved. So it is States, community, schools to deliver this framework that put the schools on their pathway to becoming an internationally accredited school. I think 19 of them are already signed up, like I say, I know on the Eco-Schools framework as well as the local framework. I think that is probably quite a good overview. My dutiful assistant will now put away the props and I am obviously more than happy to take some specific questions from you if that is a help at this point. Have you got some packs?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I think we might have already received that information.

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy: Okay. I shall keep those there then.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Thank you very much for that very good presentation. If you would like to return to your seat, we have got a few questions for you and I shall let Deputy De Sousa go first.

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy: Yes. I shall do my very best to answer.

Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

We have got a letter from Education Sport and Culture here to the Chairman of the Panel, dated 22nd December, and you said that there are 19 signed up and that 20 teachers from 17 schools have shown an interest in what you are doing. As of December last year there were 7 schools, I believe, that had attained

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

It is about where they are on the journey, so some of them will be signed up to the Eco-Active Schools ,which is the first phase, some of them will have then gone on to become signed up to the international accreditation and some of them will have made it through that level of accreditation.

Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

Yes, apparently 7 schools have achieved Eco-Active Sustainable School status as of 3rd of December last year. So the more up-to-date figure is ...

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

Nineteen are currently working on the programme. That is almost a 50 per cent local sign-up, so we are quite pleased with that. That is obviously quite a lot.

Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

So does that mean they have achieved Sustainable Schools?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Is that local accreditation or international accreditation?

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy: Local accreditation, sorry; I will be clear about that.

Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

Have they achieved the Sustainable School?

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy: Yes.

Business Manager for Schools and Colleges: Yes, and we have had 4

Deputy D.J. De Sousa: Nineteen?

Business Manager for Schools and Colleges:

No, of the 7 and presentations have happened in school to certificate them at that level.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Can I jump in with a more general question? It is clear that it is really good that these things are going on in schools, that we have got eco-active, environmentally friendly schools, but clearly that has to have some kind of overspill on to the wider society and obviously that is what we are looking at as well. Is it clear that it follows that what is learned at school will replicate itself in the wider society and what are the contradictions if what we are doing in wider society does not reflect what is going on in schools?

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

I think that is the point that we were discussing earlier this week when we were talking about this. I think you are exactly right, but of course the schools are a small proportion of society and what you very much hope, as I was saying before, is that what you are teaching in schools is going home to the parents, it is being reflected as those students grow up. Clearly other people in society have got other influences upon them and some of them are not exposed to the views and learning behaviours of the children that they are seeing. So I think it is quite difficult for this particular programme, clearly, to touch on those other people but of course that is not to say that we should not be trying to help them maybe think differently about their world as well. Eco-Active clearly has a very important schools thrust but I am sure you know we have a much wider programme that we have versed the community with and we have very specific areas that we work on: energy, waste, water. I think this review has been quite helpful to us because we have acknowledged that we perhaps have not done any particular work about, for example, litter and antisocial behaviour, which are all underpinning features in sustainability,  I think, for sure. I think what is highlighted to us is that there is a role for us to sort of spin on this year's programme of activities and consider how we might pick up these issues, because I think there are quite a lot of difficulties. I think your point is quite a philosophical one, is it not, about how you get through to the whole of society and that is a tricky one for us all to come to an answer on. Certainly what we are able to do was, through Eco-Active, pick up on these issues and I think it is something that we would like to do.

[14:15]

Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

Is it not the case that Eco-Active is rolling out programmes across different areas of society? Did you not start with the businesses?

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

That is right, yes. We have done a lot in the background; so we have had Eco-Active Business, which is about accrediting local businesses, and we have got 100 local businesses signed up. We are just about to roll out Eco-Active States, which is about

the principles of Eco-Active Business; in other words, good environmental management is good business sense. We are about to roll that out to the States of Jersey as an organisation and that ties in with the efficiency savings that we are all going to be making. We have got the Eco-Active Energy, which is about providing energy efficiency grants to low-income households at the moment, and we have got other areas where we have got specific campaigns, for example, Eco-Active Marine. One of the things that we did there was called Fishing for Litter. That is where the Marine and Coastal Zone Project Officer was working with the fishing community to provide the right sorts of fishing bins and materials returned for fishermen, because obviously litter at sea is a problem. Often what fishermen will do is pick up other people's litter at sea but then what do they do with it when they get it home? So, the idea is that we had bins out on the docks and what not to help them deposit that litter. There have been an awful lot of programmes going on. I am delighted to see tap water on the table. Of course, you might recall the tap water campaign that we ran last year, which again has the spin-off for waste, because of course encouraging people not to drink bottled water prevents the waste that comes from that. Inevitably some people will litter with those bottles.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Can I ask something about litter? It seems there are 2 issues that we would deal with. You could have a very clean Island but it does not necessarily mean it is going to be environmentally friendly. For example, if I am walking along a beach and I see a plastic bottle, I could pick that up and put it in the bin and I know that I have cleaned the beach up but also I am contributing by putting that bottle straight into the incinerator to be burned and that is not particularly environmentally friendly. There is a tension there.

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

Yes, there is, you are exactly right. It is the whole lifecycle analysis, is it not? It is about having the facilities for people to recycle the litter that they find. Of course, not speaking for the Recycling Officer, but you are well aware of all the campaigns that they are running and the way that they are able to extend their material sorting. Where there is material sorting available, for example plastic bottles they can now take separated, it is about having the facilities for people to deposit them easily close to hand. I am sure you have all seen when you have travelled the sorts of things you see now that have got the 3 compartments in; you have got waste paper and whatever. I think that is very important and I guess that is the direction that we are going to have to be looking at moving in conjunction with T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services) in the long term. You are right, you instil one set of behaviour to people, you get them to pick up when somebody else has littered perhaps, but then you have got to go to the right place, because if you are just going to be sending it through an E.F.W. (Energy from Waste) then you are not making the best use of that resource at all. So, it is part of a longer journey, I would agree.

Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

More and more of the parishes as well are setting up their own recycling. St. Helier is just rolling out a new one as well.

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

Absolutely. The parishes have been instrumental and the number of parishes now that have got the doorstep collection and we all know that that is the thing that really gets people to separate. You are right, it is very important and it is part of a journey. We started, perhaps, in Jersey quite a long way back on that journey, I suggest, and we are forging ahead as best we can. There are resource issues around that and the new plant has come into being alongside of it but I think we are finding our way forward on it.

Business Manager for Schools and Colleges:

One piece of interest: one of the sponsors on the poster and on the packs and that funding was because that supermarket chain stopped allowing use of plastic bags.

Deputy D.J. De Sousa: It was Co-op.

Business Manager for Schools and Colleges:

I was not sure if I could mention a sponsor at this hearing. The money that was saved by not producing plastic bags, a chunk of it was given to support the Eco-Active, so it is quite clever that that was a saving for plastic bags and it is now funding the Eco- Active process.

Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

That was very successful very quickly.

Deputy M. Tadier : Can I jump in, Jeremy?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

If I can just does it follow on directly?

Deputy M. Tadier :

Yes, it does. It is just that it was train of thought.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: All right, go on then.

Deputy M. Tadier :

I am concerned that as a government we are sending out mixed messages when it comes to recycling, not simply because of what we talked about, the beach analogy, but Debbie mentioned we do have some parishes which have a recycling scheme which is kerbside collection. Children in a particular catchment area, they may live in an area where they do not have the kerbside recycling where, in fact, there is no appetite at parish level to set that system up. Is that a problem?

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

What is interesting about Jersey I take on board your point, I think it is true, I think the evidence is quite clear that kerbside recycling is the thing that really turns people on to doing recycling very well. What I think is very surprising - and again I do not have the figures to hand so I am not pretending to talk for the Recycling Officer - is that the figures for Jersey are quite high for people making use of bring banks because in general, whether it is a good thing or a bad thing, many people in Jersey have a car, which means that they can transport their recycling to bring bank centres and we are definitely seeing a proliferation of those around the Island. In fact, I am doing some work on stuff back in the office about looking at the number of recycling centres in 2005 and I think there were 7, and looking at last year it is much more like 30-odd, so there are definitely far more opportunities for people. I take on board what you are saying, that having a kerbside collection is the critical thing, and that is a slow process to move towards but I think the movements that have been made have been quite impressive to date.

Deputy M. Tadier :

In your opinion, would it be preferably to have an Island-wide kerbside collection, either organised at parish level or at an Island-wide level?

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

I think the parishes are key because I think there is a very strong connection between rubbish collection and recycling collection and the parish system at the moment. I think people feel very loyal to that. One thing that we have noticed, I believe, is the sort of competition between the parishes. I think that has been really helpful and I would not like to see that break down at the moment because I think that is very helpful in driving this forward. I think in the long term, as things change and evolve, it may become more economic to do it that way but it is not for me to comment on that at this particular stage.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I have got a few questions. Just for the transcript, Deputy Duhamel had popped out for the moment and has just returned. One question, looking at our terms of reference, we are looking at the promotion of public awareness with regard to littering and drinking in public spaces and more specifically the regulations, or perhaps the consequences of the regulations. So, within your Eco-Active programme, what onus is given perhaps to the Jersey Regulations?

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

If I am honest, I do not think we use them particularly. I think when you are dealing with students in the first instance, when you are talking about behavioural changes I think the carrot is far more important than the stick. What we find with students is by instilling a sense of ownership of their place of living and community it is far more successful in getting them to engage. So, if you say to them: "Do not throw litter because it is bad for the wildlife, it makes the place look a mess, it is not healthy for the people around you," I think you tend to get a far better response than if you say: "Do not throw litter because if you do you will get caught by someone and they will tell you off." Of course, then there is always an overlap at that point at the level of enforcement as well, because if you are just doing it by a process of a stick and saying: "Do not do this because someone will catch you and you will get into trouble" and then they do not get caught and they do not get into trouble, that behaviour is not being self-fulfilling. I think what we have definitely done is try and grow the sense of responsibility for place through an understanding of our local environment and we do not tend to focus on the regulations all that much. I think there is definitely a role in teaching children to understand the consequences of their behaviour on others as well. Part of that is the rules that society sets and if society says: "In parks we do not want

people disturbing other people's enjoyment of a quiet place with a loud radio. We do not want you throwing litter" I think students, and anybody, in fact, that you are teaching about the environment and community, must understand that those rules are there because it is society's norm; we do not want to allow that to happen and that is why we have got regulations in place.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Can I come in on that? It is clear, I think, when you ask people why they do not litter they say: "Because I was taught not to" and I think even for people in our generation that is the case. Talking about how it fits into what we expect as a society, is there an issue whereby perhaps as a government and as a society there is this tacit support for an economic model which promotes waste and we have got this philosophy of economic growth is good and that as long as waste equals profit in some people's minds? Is that an issue that we are having to work within a certain parameter? Is that the case?

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

It is a good point. I do not think it is something that I recognise particularly. I think energy consumption and economic growth is very closely linked and I think that is much more difficult to unravel, but I think waste is not so much. I guess, where there is some difficulty is the level of consumerism that children are exposed to - fashion, consumables, electronic equipment, all that sort of thing - and the kind of world that children live in now is very different to the way it might have been in the past. The whole of society has to take that on board, I think, and think very hard and that is a matter not just for education and Eco-Active but it is a matter for parents and society as a whole to think about how we want to bring up our children. I think there is a good point there around the difficulties that maybe young people have in disentangling what they are shown as perhaps a celebrity way of life, which children are quite often exposed to, and their day-to-day life and then a care for the places around them. I am not an educationist by training so perhaps Cliff might want to help me out on this one.

Deputy M. Tadier :

I was thinking possibly of packaging as well; a lot of the cost of a product is attributed towards the packaging. That is what is appealing and often you really do not need the packaging and it is this

Business Manager for Schools and Colleges:

There are 2 ends to that, are there not? I am quite aware from the business end that I think organisations/companies are held to account in terms of packaging now. Interestingly, at the other end, through design technology, design technology is linked with food technology in secondary schools and one of the aspects of that now is designing the packaging. One of the learning points is around our waste, is around the cost of it, and so they learn through making as learn through law and the impact on the environment.

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

I think that is a very important point about lifecycle analysis and that is something we teach as well. I have done a children's learning activity where you give them a certain product and then you look right back to how it was made. When you start looking at something, like, for example, a fizzy drinks can and you start talking to them about aluminium mining and the difficulties and the transportation and all of those enormous issues that are probably completely lost on someone who has not thought about it to begin with, that is an awful lot to take on board. I think you have really got to start that young because, you are right, many things that are thrown at all of us as a society do not have any kind of analysis of that built in and we are not encouraged to think about it. But then I see many things that are changing and externally are affecting the Island. A lot of people buy online and you see now frustration through packing and reduced packing and all of that sort of stuff so I think it is part of a change and, like Cliff says, it is something that is taken on board as part of a design criteria in the curriculum.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Yes, if I can move on now. You discussed the relationship between the environment Eco-Active and the Education Department. Could you comment on that relationship?

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

Yes, we have been delighted. If I can take it back to the beginning of Eco-Active Schools, I am sure you will recall that some years ago the Environment Week was begun and the idea about that was that it was one and then it grew to 2 weeks within the school curriculum, towards the end of term, where children went out and experienced lots of learning opportunities in different places. So, they went to the E.F.W. plant or they went to the waterworks or they went for nature walks and it was a really wide-ranging thing. They engaged with the National Trust and all sorts of different people, which was fabulous. But it was one week and it was a way of using

funding for that one week and helping children get out and about. That was very, very beneficial but the downside of it was that you were just doing it in the one week and it became an absolute monster to organise in one week. It was sort of almost aside from the actual curriculum. Clearly, we were all aware that that is not the appropriate way. Environmental education, along with all sorts of education, has to be mainstreamed. It is just the norm; it is just the way we do stuff. This was where Olivia came in and worked with us. Olivia Copsey, the education officer who leads on Eco-Active and it is her birthday today so I am here instead. This was where she looked at what was happening elsewhere and, in conjunction with Education, talked about ways to embed all this sort of learning within the curriculum and make sure that children could not only do that but could connect with the international programmes as well. Again, I believe there is are real feeling of success when something you do as a school, and let us say St. John 's is linking in with a school in the north of England or somewhere else, it is a very satisfying thing. So, this was where we worked with Education to look at better ways of using the funding and making sure that these principles were being taught throughout the school year. So, we worked with Education to bring up this new learning platform, worked particularly with teachers to find out what works for them, because clearly they are the people delivering. It is all very well for us to have good ideas but they are delivering. Teachers were really receptive because they had recognised that Environment Week, it is not just one week, it is like we have all just said, it should be Environment Year, should it not, it is just part of life. So they were very, very helpful and helped significantly. There are some brilliant teachers out there doing some fabulous stuff within schools and they were really able to tell us what they needed and we were hopefully able to respond and give them back what they wanted in a way that helped

them. So we have found it extremely productive and not just that but it has been helpful. We understand the feedback that we are getting and hopefully they are all telling us the truth but from the N.G.O.s, because their ways of reaching into schools were often very dependent on, let us say, one particular teacher having a very good relationship with, let us say, someone from a particular organisation.

[14:30]

That is brilliant for that school because they are benefiting but what is everybody else up to if they do not have that particular connection? What we hope we have done is to open the doorway for everybody to talk to everybody on an equal basis and make use of all the opportunities. We hope in the feedback that we get is that it is a very productive, continuing relationship, because that is important as well. What we are doing is not static, we have got a list of people now, but clearly that is going to change and evolve and grow. We would hope and we certainly think that it has been a very productive and intuitive relationship to ensure that the programme grows as we all get better at it and more schools come on board and tell us what does and does not work for them.

Deputy M. Tadier : And vice versa.?

Business Manager for Schools and Colleges:

I thought you were going to ask that. It has been extremely valuable the investment that Environment have put in an education officer in terms of Olivia. As you heard, the 3 Environment Weeks grew and grew and in the last year there was over 5,000 boys and girls visiting over 50 sites within a period of a week. With all these other organisations contributing either their time or their venues, preparation and in terms of size it was becoming huge and, as Louise just rightly identified, a one-week focus. The natural step was the solution that Olivia and Environment suggested and that was the framework you have had explained to you today. The schools welcomed it because what we had in schools is curriculum areas all through the little eco-agents. A lot of schools have eco-agents and eco-prefects now. There were all sorts of little projects they were dreaming up that fitted really nicely into the overall plan, but were not able to be recognised with that piece of work in one week. So, through the launch last summer, the training with the teachers, Louise got together all the other organisations, and there were quite a few of them there. I was surprised when I saw them in one place. I lost count of how many organisations support education and support the environment in this co-ordinated way. So the huge advantage is Olivia being constant in continually supporting schools, someone that schools can contact. In a similar way they use our Health Promotion Unit colleagues around about other aspects. She is constantly there, constantly supporting, giving them resources, advising how they can move to the next level, chivvying them along so they move to that certification. When they reach certification, ensuring that the sponsors and colleagues are there to present to the schools, that we are aware of it. That investment is paying huge dividends in schools. The figures, if you came back and asked us in 6 months, you will see that they have grown again. At any time you want to see the projects more than ... through Olivia, because she is the key person, I meet Olivia every half term, on and off, to be brought up to speed. A great piece of work between

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

If I can add as well, to say Olivia's role ... I am sure she would be blushing if she was here, but she is a three-quarter post and she runs all of eco-active, so this is only part of what she does. She is out meeting with businesses and doing school travel plans and all the rest of it. But it has been a real example of even just a portion of the job spending her time doing this can have such dividends, because the enthusiasm of the students and the teachers is what keeps it rolling.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

If I can then ask, you commented how there were barriers to get accreditation for some of the schools. Could you comment on what has been the experience of these barriers?

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

Certainly my understanding of them - Cliff will probably detail a few of them - I think often it is just time for teachers. Teachers have got an awful lot of demands on their time. They are trying to deal with many, many different things. I do not think it is a case of not wanting to; I do not think it is a case of the children not wanting to. I think it is just a case of getting the formalities done. For example, Olivia spent a lot of time sitting down with teachers, who have been busy, perhaps helping them fill in the forms, because all of a sudden it is a whole new set of forms or whatever. We try and make it all as easy as we can, but inevitably when you are busy and sometimes you are presented with something ... so we will put time into helping teachers and students or whatever, recognise and bring together all their thoughts around the subject into the framework. So my understanding is that it is certainly not a lack of will or not even particularly funding, perhaps. Cliff may correct me, because there are grants available for schools, like I say, to take on specific projects of up to £500 a school, but often it is a resourcing issue, is it not?

Business Manager for Schools and Colleges:

I think an awful lot of the activities that the young students get involved with are extracurricular activities. An awful lot is dealt with in curriculum and I could reel you off what the content of environmental science or whatever it is. So the barrier is usually time. It usually takes longer through this approach, a co-ordinated approach, to achieve something, but that is becoming more and more accessible through the support of Olivia. Also, alongside that, secondary schools and some primary are quite complex. You get staff moving in, staff moving out, so it might be a teacher who is now taking responsibility for the environment within the school, learning as they move through. The projects are at different stages, different groups of children; no barriers that are insurmountable. We certainly support any activity that heads in this direction.

Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

Firstly for the sake of the transcribers, you have mentioned several times N.G.O.s.

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

Oh, non-governmental organisations. That is horrible, is it not?

Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

It is very easy to get into abbreviations.

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy: I am sorry. You are quite right.

Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

We have been told that there are 20 teachers from 17 schools and that 19 schools have signed up. We know that we have quite a few primary schools. Then we have our State secondary schools, our higher education and our private schools. How many private schools have come forward to joint the initiative as well?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

If we could just have a breakdown?

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

I was just going to say, what I have here - if I could provide this in evidence - is a list of the schools that are signed up for the first stage of Eco-Schools. It explains on the sheet where they all are. There is a good mixture of all the different schools, you will see there. So it is very encouraging.

Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

Thank you. We all know that education is very important and that the younger you start educating the more chance  you have of getting through. Also the style of education, to make something fun, tends to stick in minds much more. So how early would you start with this type of education?

Business Manager for Schools and Colleges:

From the very first time they step into school. I think in terms of school policies, school cultures ... and it depends which aspect you are looking at. If it is something as specific as litter, all schools have litter policies. That is in simplistic form. In terms of environment, if you went into any one of our primary schools, especially round nursery and round reception, if you look at ... you will find every one of those schools there will be things growing outside. There will be an understanding, at a very young age, that cycle of product. There are one or 2 schools I am really proud of. But if you think of Springfield School, within the community it serves, if you went into that - and you know the constraints on space there - and go round the back and see what they are growing there ... chickens. It is all in the recycling and the compost heap. It is all the children. Then you go to Janvrin, which again is confined with space; the new nature trails put in behind their school, growing their potatoes. There are so many examples from in primary school, at a young age of these young people being given access and learning around about environmental issues. I think my favourite was the greenhouse made out of plastic bottles and the plants being grown in the greenhouse made out of plastic bottles; really clever things. They are loving it; the enjoyment of learning around really important issues.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Can I ask, on the flipside of the coin, if behaviour is being learned - even way back in the day, no one was taught that littering was a good thing to do - is there a point at which behaviour becomes unlearned, in that we pick up bad habits in adulthood? Is that perhaps linked to socioeconomic conditions and class, in your opinion?

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

Again, from an environmentalist point of view - then I will hand over to Cliff from an educationalist point of view - I do not think anything is unlearnable. I think it is difficult when people have differing pressures on them. So, for example, if you are very worried about being able to make enough money to feed yourself and your family, clearly other things become more of a luxury to you. So I think sometimes that can be a barrier. However, that said, an understanding and love of nature is in general free, so if you can instil that love of place and community around you then that is something that is inherent and does not cost anybody anything. So you might imagine that anybody has that open to them. I guess what there also is is pressure from the community as well. Perhaps an individual may not feel a certain behaviour is appropriate and not particularly bothered about whether they follow it or not, so you will get individuals who maybe litter. But what you would hope is that the community around them may pick up for that person's misdemeanours, so someone else will pick up rubbish for them. I am not for an instant suggesting that it is okay for one person to litter because someone else will pick up behind them. But what I am saying is that if you have a community that accepts a certain set of values it is much easier for someone else to fit in among that and learn from behaviours of others and relearn things. For example, I have done it and sometimes it does not go down well, if you see someone else littering, pick up behind them and say: "I think you dropped this", (a) it is quite shocking to them and (b) sometimes it is not a very wise idea. But in theory that sort of community pressure can really help people think about what they are doing as well.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Presumably you are more likely to not litter and to have more of a consciousness about your environment if you feel value to the environment.

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

Exactly, yes. I think that is probably what I was trying to get at before, not very eloquently but if you feel connected to your community ... I do not think anybody wants to live among the dirty environment and litter and ... nobody wants that, I do not think, so I would hope that, like you say, the person who feels in some way connected to their community would hopefully behave in a more positive manner. Maybe I could hand over to Cliff from an educationalist point of view.

Business Manager for Schools and Colleges:

I am not an expert on the behaviours in the adult population. I do believe there are such things as learned behaviours and they can be modified in any which way; hopefully, to the positive. I have seen 2 contrasting examples of it in recent weeks. A sporting fixture with over 2,000 people I went to last Saturday, the bins were full to overflowing and the litter was minimal. Then another function 2 weeks before that, which were school age (sorry about this, Minister), which was where the litter initially was pretty bad. Yet once the adults with those teenagers pointed out: "Hold on" it was sorted. Yes, the venue does not matter; the behaviour has to be the same in whatever venue you are in. So I have seen examples of both recently. Venue could be ... around about self worth, value in the community. I would think a by-product of not having those could be antisocial behaviour or other examples of not valuing the society you are in, but I am no expert.

Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

I was wondering, and I was talking to our Chairman beforehand, I know in my work as a Deputy I have had some involvement with the residents of Springfield. Springfield is a strange one because it is a park but it is also a sports facility. It is Education, Sport and Culture that are responsible for it. Am I right? So are there any other parks, and if so what is your responsibility towards those?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

We have responsibility for all the sports facilities and Springfield would come under that heading. We need to ensure that the appropriate management of those areas is in place. We look to the community, as well as in some cases the police, to help us manage and control behaviour around these premises.

Business Manager for Schools and Colleges:

There is another example, about 2 years ago, you may have seen it in the media, with issues around social behaviour up at the Les Quennevais Sports Centre. The solution to that was quite a practical one and that was the agencies like the police, the school liaison police office - which does not exist any more, but did at that time - working with the 15 and 16 year-olds in the schools, talking around the issues, the young people discussing the impact of those issues, and within quite a short period of time the behaviour ceased because the young people had ownership of the impact that either they or other teenagers' behaviours were having on that community within that area. What also came alongside that - and I know the Minister will want to show you later - were the impact of the community sports teams that take their football out to Les Quennevais and even to Port Regent. The police statistics of the impact of those ... have I taken ...

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

No. We do have some information that we can leave with you regarding the work and comparisons with incidents of antisocial behaviour and other events that one would consider ...

Deputy M. Tadier :

I can vouch for the Les Quennevais football initiative. It has the benefit of not just keeping them occupied, but it also instils that sense of community.

The Minister for Education Sport and Culture:

Yes and it is not just limited to Les Quennevais; also dealing with other areas and, again, working alongside the community to support young people who might find themselves perhaps looking for trouble.

[14:45]

Business Manager for Schools and Colleges:

Sorry, Deputy , these statistics from David Kennedy, who oversees the Sports Committee Programme, works closely with the police because he wants to see evidence of impact of the activities. The evidence in the documentation I have given you links when activities were at  Les Quennevais or Fort Regent on the Friday evening, how many young people were involved, and linked directly with the number of phone calls the police received in relation to teenage behaviour. I did not realise the frequency. But what is clear is that when those activities are on the frequency of phone calls the police have about teenage problems goes straight down.

Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

Is this the guy that is also doing dance for girls?

Business Manager for Schools and Colleges:

Yes, that is all the post-school activities. It is funded through B.A.S.S. (Building a Safe Society) and he has a team and they work through the holiday periods as well.

Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

What is that an abbreviation of?

Business Manager for Schools and Colleges:

B.A.S.S. Building a Safe Society, which was funded by, I believe (and I will be helped here), by the proceeds from a drug seizure. Really, really interesting work they are doing in the community.

Deputy M. Tadier :

It would be interesting to talk to Rob to see if they are significantly ... it is interesting there are peaks around August. As you would expect, there are more people around in the summer, people are out and about.

Business Manager for Schools and Colleges:

Their summer programme is more intensive. Their August programme is more intensive. They do beach football and volleyball. They are really interested in working with teenagers. They have all sorts of quotes in there: "What would you be doing if you were not at football?" "Well, hanging around in town, drinking, whatever." But they focus around about keeping the ... it is a group of teenage boys, basically a particular aged group of teenage boys, who will go and kick a football for 3 hours if you let them, but: "If it is not there as an activity we will find something else to do." What is interesting now, girls are starting to ... they are not willing to participate, but watching. What David Kennedy is asking them: "What do you want to be doing?" They want to be doing some hip hop dancing and they want to be doing some street dancing. So they are going to try and organise that now as well. This town community of young teenagers, they are a great group of young people and if you engage with them and offer them this type of activity, they are going to take part.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

The other thing is once they get involved we can then steer them towards other organisations that they can link up with and further develop their skills, whether it is dancing or sport.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I was wondering if you have access ... if a certain group of adults noticed that there was a peak in teenage behaviour in say a certain area, how would they engage with this programme?

Business Manager for Schools and Colleges:

I think if there was a group of any community that you represented, through contacting the Minister directly, he would then instruct officers to try and find a solution for that area. So the first point of contact would be through the Minister.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

There is also a system in place that, through the police, they log incidents to identify hotspots. Our Youth Service and our community officers work closely with the police and the parishes. So when hotspots in a particular area are identified, then both our Youth Service and our community development officers get involved and organise events and target their efforts to those particular areas. So it is a co-ordinated approach that involves a number of different agencies, all with the same aim; to engage with the youngsters, deal with the issues that they have and draw them back into being more responsible members of society.

Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

So is the Minister aware that there is quite a big problem at the moment with People's Park and huge amounts of young people gathering round, particularly Fridays and Saturdays?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

I am pleased you mentioned that, because I have been provided with some information, which again I will leave with you, from our Youth Officer, Mark Capern. It is all about the street-based work team that is targeting areas such as Parade Gardens, People's Park, the waterfront and Liberation Square, where the young people do tend to congregate. They are very specific in addressing a number of issues including, obviously, the abuse of alcohol.

Deputy M. Tadier :

There is nothing wrong with youths congregating per se, is there? We do not live in a communist society where we get paranoid if there are more than 3 people hanging around on a street corner.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

That is a very good point to make. I think we sometimes forget that the majority of our young people are extremely responsible for their actions and in fact act as a model for improved behaviour with regards to taking care of the environment, to their parents, their grandparents and extended family. But there is a perception that on occasions when you see a large group of youngsters gathering, they can be intimidating in the same way a group of adults gathering would be classed as intimidating. I think it is really to make the youngsters aware that we are there, we are able to help, we are able to support them, to get alongside (especially with the Youth Service), to offer any advice if they require it and just to listen to some of the issues that they may or may not have. In that way, we have been able to develop our community initiatives, especially the football schemes and others, and provide something that the youngsters want to get involved in.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Just a question about process, Minister. You have outlined the process of how these things can develop. I have noticed that in our terms of reference the promotion of public awareness with regard to littering and drinking in public spaces, you have highlighted that you decreased the drinking in public spaces if you were able to create other opportunities for young people. The point I want to make is how does the department promote these activities so that other members of the community can engage? What you have discussed is phone calls from the police, et cetera, will kick off that process. However, there is always the issue of how some people do get frustrated with the amount of phone calls they make to the police and then give up. So my question is: how is that promoted?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

First of all, you need to go back to basics, if you like. We start from the premise that Cliff spoke about earlier with regard to school, that we recognise importance of promoting all aspects of good behaviour within our school environment. We deal with issues, whether it is to do with alcohol, littering and so on and so forth. The codes of conduct within the schools are quite strict in many respects with some of these issues. The children are brought up in that environment. What I was saying earlier was that there are occasions where people will become concerned about a group of individuals, and we have the ability to deal with that, but the general focus comes from within the range of activities that are provided throughout the child's life. It reinforces good behaviour, whatever that might be.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Specifically, Minister, you discussed it, before made that link, about how someone from outside can engage in that process, how they can make it aware to the department.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

I come back to the fact that I would say 80 per cent-plus of our young people in school are aware of all the activities and all the different events that they can become involved in. All we are doing is acknowledging that there is another group of youngsters that, for various reasons, want to hang around, do not want to engage with the youth club as such and are happy just to gather with their mates in Parade Gardens for instance. All we are saying is that we are acknowledging that and as a result we are using a range of resources to engage with them, to ensure that they are safe within the community that they are operating and living in.

Business Manager for Schools and Colleges:

Can I support the Minister in that answer? In particularly answering your questions, normally those adults who wish to bring an issue to the fore would do it through the Honorary Police or the States Police, if it came to the phone call. All those agencies are in communication. So either the Honorary Police or the States Police would then talk to either the Youth Service or David Kennedy, because they have direct communication. So usually the solutions are found through that. David Kennedy is quite open in terms of his promotion of the activities they offer. Only a week or so ago, on the back page of the J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post): "Here is an individual, this is what we are doing and this is why we are doing it." In terms of making the public aware that the operation is there, allowing them the conduit to voice their concerns and then the communication behind that, I think that is in place.

Deputy M. Tadier :

There is a challenge for us as well, is there not, in order to know how to deal with the adult population? Once you hit a certain age you are out of the remit of the corporate parent and clearly there would be a benefit, I am sure, of involving the wider community. Of course, we have clubs in civil society, but there is an issue that when you hit a certain age you no longer caught in the net of the Education Department .

Business Manager for Schools and Colleges:

Interestingly, I went to a working group that Home Affairs chair and it was around about looking at the statistics and looking at that odd adult group, especially that 18 to 25 year group, where when it comes around about to that antisocial behaviour quite a few high frequency issues are around there. You are right, it is beyond our remit, but it is again, what does society put in place to meet the needs of those young men on a Friday and Saturday night when they are at their worst?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Just adding to the points that you have made - because they were very helpful - is that at an education department you can only do so much. Parents do have a responsibility. Equally the wider community has a responsibility to support all residents who live in it, whatever age they are. I think there are times where it is perhaps quite easy to believe that the education service and my department, with the Youth Service and other areas that we have developed, is able to be the magic wand that deals with everything. However, it is not quite like that. We are there to, obviously, do what we can to support young people as they grow up, but there is an expectation that the Island community will be there to support and encourage those young people outside of the school environment. I think that is where the big question lies and the challenge lies: how we maintain that responsibility that we have nurtured in schools.

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

Can I perhaps add to that, Deputy ? I think Deputy Tadier 's point is very well made. There is quite a challenge among that group of people who have just left school and are finding their way in the world and perhaps getting a bit excited about that on occasion. It is a difficult one. It is as much of a challenge for us to get the kind of things we are trying to get across to that group as any of the educationalists here. One of the things that we have just started doing, I know it is a small step, for example if you can think of ... a lot of the events, particularly the music events now that are happening, so you have Jersey Live and you have Grassroots, the company that run Grassroots are Eco-Active accredited businesses. They hold those principles dear. For those of you who might have been to Grassroots this year, they had the green police out, who were picking up any litter that people were daring to throw and sorting out recycling. They would not let bottled water come on to site; they had Jersey Water giving out water from tankers. Although it is a just small example, it is another way of getting to that difficult to reach group, in an environment where the last thing they were expecting was for that message to be coming at them. They had gone to a music festival and they were out to have a great time at a music festival. Why would they not? What we hope to be able to do in conjunction with Allez-oop,

which is the company that run the event ... in fact, they won an award for being a sustainability based music festival, which was absolutely brilliant, just the right message to the right group of people who some of them might be people we would reach in other ways, but perhaps not. I think maybe my last point is that we are very lucky working in Jersey, as our natural environment is such that a lot of people enjoy the outdoor lifestyle. A lot of people enjoy surfing and the beaches. That forms a very good basis for what we were talking about before, about a love and responsibility of the environment and the sort of behaviours that you would hope they would exhibit in that. I think you are right, there are different mechanisms needed to reach different groups at different times. It is a challenge that we have always faced, I think. We try our best, but I am sure we do not always succeed.

Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

We have the Assistant Minister for the Environment here who has not had a huge input. I am sure that he has something that he would like to input into this.

[15:00]

Assistant Minister for Environment:

I think of the work that is being undertaken to try and install an appreciation of moral and ethical education, in terms of how to become a responsible citizen for Jersey, I think we are probably  doing things just about right. My  particular issue at the moment, which has not been addressed at all, is the extent to which when people become adults they just forget about it. At the moment, we do have this carrot and stick approach. The carrot, as I have said, is generally working. In terms of the stick

approach if we look at, for example, pet care and ownership, walking the dog, the number of times, in particular where I live, we have had signs put up, there are laws, as you all know, and the council and the authorities can fine people for leaving dog faeces about, to the extent of putting special bins in places to make it easier for people to do. But any of us who walk around the reservoir sites or whatever cannot fail to notice the fact that a lot of people consider that dog faeces grow in plastic bags off trees, which is absolutely ridiculous. That is not normal behaviour. The authorities were doing everything we can to try and encourage and coax and all the rest of it but there are still people for whom the message does not get through. The thing that really annoys me is the extent to which those legal authorities do not apply the law properly. I think if we did then maybe we would start to approach the problem from the other end. I will give you one anecdote. My aunt, a smoker, a number of years ago when we had the communist regime in Russia, took a trip to Russia. She was in Red Square. She was there with her partner. She was smoking away and dropped her cigarette butt when she had finished with it. She had a tap on the shoulder by a red- capped official with a gun and all the rest of it: "Pick that up." Okay, now that may seem to be going too far, but the point we have not considered at all is the extent to which having laws and regulations and not policing them, whether or not it is worth having those regulations in the first place and the extent to which by not doing that we are taking away all the good work that is being done from the other end.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Thank you for that point that, although it has not come up in this meeting, has come up in a few other meetings we have had.

Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

Yes, just finally, if I can. I have been involved with Stop the Drop in St. Helier . It is only a small group so we have linked up with St. Aubin and St. Brelade . I know at Haute Valleé School we used to do an advert and the subject chosen was chewing gum. Just the thought of being on television and performing an advert really got these youngsters thinking. They did some really in-depth analysis and collecting of information and statistics and things like that. They were so excited about it, they were going home telling parents and telling teachers as well and saying: "Did you know this costs this and so many bits of chewing gum the size of it" and all the rest of it. It was really exiting. What other programmes are you doing to keep children interested? As I said before, keeping them interested and excited about things helps them to learn, helps things to sink in.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

We work with a number of agencies, not directly to do with litter perhaps, but we work with Prison? Me! No Way!, which is a multiple agency organisation that really engages quite actively with our young people. It is something that Cliff is part of. Cliff, you would like to perhaps elaborate on some of the work that is being done.

Business Manager for Schools and Colleges:

There are 2 ways to answer your question. Before we go on to Prison? Me! No Way! I think an awful lot of learning activities that Louise detailed earlier are the sort of things that young people get involved in, are enthused about and are learning about. I think you could see a number of examples across schools that would hit the example you gave about chewing gum in schools. The work of Prison? Me! No Way! I am

pretty sure you are aware of. That, again, is very active learning around consequences. Anti-social behaviour is an aspect of it, but again use of alcohol, use of drugs, impact on their lives and the impact on the lives of others. The other organisation we support is the No More Punch for Judy, which is the road traffic one. It goes around secondary schools and it shows the impact of alcohol and drugs on driving. So there are 2 different bodies that support various aspects of the issues you are identifying, with particular age groups and at certain times. The heads of P.H.S.E. (Personal, Social and Health Education) have come to us recently and they want us to commission some sort of work supporting not only boys and girls. They are seeing that alcohol consumption through statistics with Health Promotion becoming an issue with 12 and 13 year-olds, through the analysis that Health Promotion are doing through the things that teachers are becoming aware of. It is not targeting the children we are talking about, but we think we should get the message to the parents of those children, because the source for these young people of alcohol, they are not buying it, they are sourcing it in other ways. So we have been asked to maybe do a piece of work around that. It is a different age group, because it is a year or 2 later that Prison? Me! No Way! works. So it is these 12 and 13 year-olds. We are going to investigate with Home Affairs and maybe put something like that together. We are aware of issues. Coming back to your original question, the act of learning is there.

Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

Did Home Affairs not say though in their budget that they are looking to positively cut some funding of Prison? Me! No Way!?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Basically, there is a review being undertaken about the programme and the way Prison? Me! No Way! operates to ensure it continues to be fit for purpose. We said that once that work has been undertaken then we will, together with Home Affairs and Housing, review the funding that would be required.

Business Manager for Schools and Colleges: It is in place for 2011, we know that for sure.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I am just conscious of time. Did you have any final questions?

Deputy M. Tadier :

I just have 2 and they are pretty brief and will not take that long. I just had a quick question about the sponsors. Are all the sponsors, for  example Deutsche  Bank, Connex and Newtel, all Eco-Active accredited?

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

Good question. I think they all are. I will come back to you on that one, but I am pretty sure they are all on the scheme at one level, yes.

Deputy M. Tadier :

It would make sense. To do with accreditation, have you thought of rolling it out further, for example to individual States Departments or to departments within departments and to the parishes? It would be interesting, I think, if a parish could apply for Eco-Active accreditation.

Assistant Director for Environmental Policy:

That is a good point. At the moment, you are right, we are working on businesses, we are working on schools, we are working on the States now as a whole organisation and that is going to kick off in April, so that is going to be a really big programme where we are rolling out Eco-Active principles, environmental action planning, baseline monitoring across the whole of the organisation, which you can imagine is a monstrous task and has to be engaged with at lots of different levels, department right the way down to teams almost. That is a really big piece of work. I think probably you are right, the next stage is that. I go back to the competition factor, I mentioned earlier about. Also competition between the Islands, because of course one of the loveliest statistics that I know Emma always gives to do with recycling is that Jersey has the highest level of textile recycling in the whole of the U.K. (United Kingdom) apart from Guernsey, who do better than us. There is always a little bit of competition. I think the parishes are a good way to make use of that. I think that is where we will be having to go next. That is a good point.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Before we draw this to a close, I would just like to ask you if there are any final points that you would like to make to us. Perhaps if you feel we have the wrong end of the stick on something or if there is anything else which perhaps you would like to re- emphasise this is your opportunity to do so.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

If I could just make it clear about the discussion we had with regard to young people and the way they are supported. It is right to say that the Honorary Police in the parishes work very closely with the States Police in identifying where a number of incidents occur over a short period of time involving young people. That information is used to determine a hotspot. It is not just because suddenly a group of people turn up overnight or start making a noise, that it becomes an issue. Once a hotspot is identified various agencies get involved, including the Youth Service. There are structures and processes in place to help deal with that. The idea that someone will hear or see a group of kids standing in the Royal Square and phone me and say: "Look, you have to sort this out," would be ridiculous in the extreme. I am confident that the right processes and procedures are in place, so that we can help support parents and others in providing for the needs of the young people that may find themselves in difficulty.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Thank you. I would just like to finish by thanking you very much for the information that you have given us today. Our review is due to be produced before Easter. With that, I would like to close this hearing. Thank you.

[15:10]