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Health, Social Security and Housing Panel
Social Housing Waiting Lists
Tuesday, 10th MAY 2011
Panel:
Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier (Chairman) Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence Connétable S.A. Yates of St. Martin
Witnesses:
Mr. K. Hewitt, Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust
Mr. C. Marsh, Housing Trust Management Agent - Voisin Hunter
In attendance:
Mr. W. Millow , Scrutiny Officer
[12:51]
Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier (Chairman):
All right. So welcome to this first hearing of the Health, Social Security and Housing Scrutiny Panel in its investigation into housing waiting lists and, first of all, before we start, we always introduce ourselves for the sake of the recording and the transcription. So I am Deputy Geoff Southern , the Chairman of this particular Panel.
Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence :
I am Constable Deidre Mezbourian of St. Lawrence and I am the Vice-Chairman of this Panel.
Connétable S.A. Yates of St. Martin : Silva Yates, Constable of St. Martin .
Mr. W. Millow :
I am William Millow , the Scrutiny Officer.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
If you would just introduce yourself.
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust:
I am Ken Hewitt, Chairman of Les Vaux Housing Trust.
Housing Trust Management Agent:
I am Chris Marsh from Voisin Hunter. We are the Les Vaux Housing Trust Managing Agent.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
Thank you. If I can start us off with a brief introduction to your trust, what it does and how it originated.
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust:
Yes. Well, as you are probably aware, I have already provided you with a hard copy of our background, which I trust you have all seen the copy of, which relates back to 1989 when tenants were going to be evicted from Troy Court. The rents were increased and at the time the Housing Department said: "No, we do not want to buy Troy Court," for the simple reason that they worked out that a lot of the tenants, although they were qualified residents, did not meet Housing Department criteria. At that time Deputy John Le Fondré Senior put together the Trust, got necessary permissions, and the trust borrowed from the States and they bought Troy Court, which really brings us to our situation where it created a precedent where our tenants need not be Housing Department qualified. Yes, they have to be (a) to (h), but not all of them would qualify for Housing Department property. In that background, it was said that the object of the Trust "would be to provide residential accommodation primarily - not necessarily or exclusively, by way of rented accommodation - to persons in the Island in need of such accommodation and to assist financially or otherwise such persons." During that time, we have also bought and protected the tenants of Landscape Grove, Valley Court and Vale Court. So initially all our properties were old. In recent years, we have managed to get into the development side and we have now got such properties as David Moon House, which was the old Aquila Youth site. We have also taken some properties in Clos de Lemprière and, where possible, we are looking for more. Also what we have done is ensure that our properties are maintained in a first-class order and we have kept to the spirit of the thing by keeping our rents up to or below the fair rent levels. We are not quite certain how many of our tenants are on Income Support, but we know that a good number of them are.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
The total number of tenants that you have now?
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust:
The total number of tenants is around well, we have got 327 properties. I did put it in there.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
Yes, that is okay. It is just for the record; 327, yes.
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust:
Well, we have got 327 properties and I think we said it is around about 760, thereabouts, in the number of tenants.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
That is quite significant. You said that when you started out the people you inherited have different criteria; they did not necessarily fit the Housing Department waiting list.
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust: Yes.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
Is that still the case? Have you maintained your own criteria for the waiting list?
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust:
Yes, we have carried on with that level. Basically, as far as we are concerned, we work in assistance with the Housing Department in that the agreement that we have always had is that we get 50 per cent for Housing, 50 per cent for our own housing list. So, therefore, we have worked quite well with them in that we go one for one.
Housing Trust Management Agent:
We do have eligibility criteria; so when an applicant applies to our housing trust, we will assess them in a similar way that Housing will do. So I can give you a copy of our eligibility criteria. It gives us a little bit more flexibility. Housing has quite strict criteria. For example, if you earn more than £40,000, they will not accept you. What we will do is we will look at the circumstances of that individual applying and say, if they are in desperate need of accommodation ... maybe a couple have split up and they have joint caring and control of their children. If the wife is in States housing, Housing will not pick up the father even though the children do come and stay with him. He may not be able to afford housing in the private sector. He may not get support from Income Support either because of the salary rate he is on, even though he is paying maintenance to his wife, for example. So those are the kind of things that we can be a little bit more flexible about.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Since you brought the subject up and I was going to ask you, if you have an application form, if we could have a copy, please.
Housing Trust Management Agent: Yes.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
But I would certainly like to see your eligibility criteria as well.
Housing Trust Management Agent: Yes.
The Connétable of St. Martin : Thank you very much.
Housing Trust Management Agent:
Yes, we have an application form. I can get that for you. I have got the eligibility criteria I can give you today.
The Connétable of St. Martin : Yes, that is fine.
Housing Trust Management Agent:
Would you like that now? There are 3 copies there. The eligibility criteria are based on the Housing criteria. It states maximum income levels, property ownership, savings and assets, which is as per the Housing. This effectively is the last page of our application form and, while it does say at the top: "The Trust is mindful to show some flexibility," we do often turn people down when we feel they fall outside the criteria.
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust:
That and the application form are on our website and can be accessed at any time. We introduced our website a couple of years ago and gradually we are packing it with things such as that and also our balance sheets are on there for inspection.
The Connétable of St. Martin : Could I carry on, just the line of
Deputy G.P. Southern : Just briefly.
[13:00]
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Yes, okay, briefly. I just want to rapidly go through the way you choose your tenants. You have got your criteria. Do you have a points system or
Housing Trust Management Agent: No.
The Connétable of St. Martin : Is it just decided by the Trust?
Housing Trust Management Agent:
What we do is when an application form comes into us, we will assess the applicant. We will load them on to a data sheet where it gives date order. That is then split per property as well; so whether they are looking for 1-bedroom, maybe they are over the age of 50, or a 2-bedroom flat or a 3-bedroom house. Then we further split it down as well and we also prioritise the applicant as well. So we may have found someone, for example, who wants to move and fits the criteria; not maybe in desperate need to move. So we do try and prioritise applicants as well.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
So basically it is when you have got one property vacant and you have got a number of applicants, if I said the most needy would get it or the most needy
Housing Trust Management Agent:
We would look down the list from the start in date range and then prioritise in that way. Then we pull the application forms out and then interview them as well.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Yes. Now, there is another point I asked the other housing providers and that basically is just to do with antisocial behaviour. I did see on your bundle there is a paragraph about responsibility and I bet I cannot find it now. In the unlikely event, or perhaps it does happen, you get a tenant who has antisocial behaviour and makes the neighbours' lives a bit of a misery, how do you deal with that? The question I think basically is say you are a responsible landlord, if it comes to eviction, where do you point your evicted tenant? Do you have any social responsibility about that?
Housing Trust Management Agent:
Antisocial behaviour is one of the most difficult things to deal with and one of the most difficult things to prove as well. We try and work with tenants where we can do. So if we do get complaints in we have a computer system that logs complaints against individual tenants, so we can keep a track record of exactly what has happened. We try and always advise people to call the police or to the local Parish as well; so, again, a track record can be built up. We will get the tenants in. We will talk to them. We will give warnings. We will explain to them their responsibilities, not just to the landlord but to the residents and the people that live round them as well. We have moved people on in the past, maybe moved them from one property to another estate where we feel they may be more suited. I cannot think of many occasions where we have ever had to formally evict, but I cannot think of any occasions where I have had to formally evict a tenant for antisocial behaviour.
The Connétable of St. Martin : Thank you very much.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
Could I just ask you, because the focus of our investigation today is waiting lists, the first question is: how many people do you have on your waiting list and the second one is: and is it going up?
Housing Trust Management Agent:
Yes it is going up. There are about 450 names, I would guess, at the moment on that waiting list. We have been through our waiting list on a regular basis to make sure that people still are looking for properties and are in need of properties. It is probably going up by 2 or 3 per week at the moment.
The Connétable of St. Lawrence : What do you attribute that increase to?
Housing Trust Management Agent:
A lot of it is financial pressure, people maybe not being able to afford the private rents. A lot of them do not like to claim Income Support, especially so more the elderly people I think, and the younger generation not being able to afford 3 or 4-bedroom properties.
The Connétable of St. Lawrence :
I believe you have had a copy of our Terms of Reference so you know that social housing waiting lists is the review we are undertaking, but we are looking to establish the level of need for social housing in Jersey and I would like to ask you how you feel that need is established and whether or not you work with the Minister and the department in any way to establish the need.
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust:
Going back, we have worked with the Ministers for Housing in the past and Chris and his firm have had very, very close relationships with the Housing Department because, as you know, there is 50/50 or 80/20 - dependent on whether we were getting financial support from the States on a new estate - and we have got good relations. In fact, Chris was just telling me that we did have a 1-bed flat in Troy Court that came up and which was due for a housing nomination and they finished up nominating 8 people, all of whom turned it down because they did not want to live at Troy Court, and in the end we managed to fill it with somebody on our list. I think the problem at the moment is you have got the financial situation with the private sector going up. Their rents have hiked quite considerably over the last 12-18 months and for a 2-bed flat where you are looking at around £1,200 to £1,400 a month, that is one hell of a lot of money and you have got the people who are not in the finance industry, the people who have got ordinary jobs. There is very, very harsh pressure on them and that, in its way, also reflects with their employers because you have got people - say Voisins, De Gruchy, Sandpiper, Waitrose - all of a sudden they have got their staff there saying: "Can we also have more money?"
Deputy G.P. Southern : Cannot afford to live.
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust:
Yes, and they say: "No," and there they are. I remember in my days of banking, you used to just say, right, a third of your salary would go on providing housing, either with a mortgage or with the rent or whatever. In some instances now you are talking probably two-thirds and that does not leave you a lot for a reasonable standard of living. I think that people at that lower end, it does not matter if they cannot get in the finance industry, they are not that way inclined, they have still got to live. They have still got to have a good standard of living and that is what we try to do with our accommodation. We keep it in good maintained order and we keep talking to them because your people go round the estates at least once a month, if not more.
Housing Trust Management Agent:
I would say that three-quarters of the people on the waiting list would be there for financial reasons. We do not hear so much many more these days about people needing to move for the standard accommodation. Yes, you sometimes do get that but that comes down to finances as well at the end of the day. There is enough stock out there for people to live in. It is just they simply cannot afford it. We work with Housing closely. We have a data-sharing agreement with Housing and our application forms, when people fill in their application forms, that allows us to share information with Housing. We met with Housing recently when they wanted to try and get an idea as to the demand in the Island. Rather than a different housing trust having different lists and you adding up the 450 names on the roll and 300 on Housing, there is not 750 people. A lot of those would be sitting on 2 or 3 or 4 lists. So we have given them names and addresses. They can cross-reference now. They are trying to get an idea as to how many people there are.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
Do you know how many of those are sitting on the Housing Department list as well?
Housing Trust Management Agent:
I would suspect three-quarters of our people on our list would be sitting on the other housing trusts lists as well. If they are not, they should be and we do tell people to. We get people coming in from Cyril Le Marquand House round the corner into our office. They have got a housing application form. The lady behind the desk has told them to come to us next and they get an application form from us and I am sure they walk round to the Jersey Homes Trust and
Deputy G.P. Southern :
You seem to be in agreement with the Housing Department's intention to work towards a collective single waiting list so that we know where we stand?
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust: Yes.
The Connétable of St. Lawrence :
What discussion have you had with Housing about their proposed gateway?
Housing Trust Management Agent:
I have met with Housing probably 3 or 4 times about the gateway, not just through the Les Vaux Housing Trust but, as I said, as managing agent for property on the Island as well. I agree with the idea behind it. I think there just needs sorting out the criteria, who is going to be eligible for it. I think that is the main point that we have not got to at the moment.
The Connétable of St. Lawrence :
When you say: "we have not got to," have you had discussions with them about what they propose will be the criteria for eligibility?
Housing Trust Management Agent: Not at the moment.
The Connétable of St. Lawrence : You have not been?
Housing Trust Management Agent: No.
The Connétable of St. Lawrence :
But you are aware that they are bringing out a White Paper in June to discuss this?
Housing Trust Management Agent: Yes.
The Connétable of St. Lawrence :
In fact, you have partly answered one of the questions I was going to ask you, which was whether you thought perhaps there may be duplication in your housing waiting list and Housing's waiting list. How do you measure the level of need for social housing yourselves? You have just told us you think three-quarters of those on your list are already on Housing's. So how are you basing the level of need that you will be required to provide?
Housing Trust Management Agent:
I think we have always seen that we choose out of the same pot of people on, whether or not there is an allocation policy of 50/50. For me personally it is the same people sitting on both lists, whether we choose one from Housing and one from Les Vaux Housing Trust, and those criteria are as big or small as you want to make it. Your criterion at the moment is £40,000 per annum. If you think that is not sufficient and you increase it to £50,000 per annum, you suddenly have another 200 people on your waiting list. So I think that is a question more for Income Support as well, as to how they are going to deal with an influx on that. I do not think it is easy for us to say we know that there are 400 people out there because at the moment we do not. There are 400 people who are eligible to sit on there. That does not mean there are not another 300 people out there who are not eligible to sit on there who are really, really struggling and are not getting any help.
The Connétable of St. Lawrence :
So do you think the new criteria that will be agreed with the gateway will bring in a lot more people to be eligible for social housing who are not recognised now?
Housing Trust Management Agent:
I do not know what the criteria are going to be at the moment, so I do not know. I would like to think so, I would like to hope so, but I think there are people who are struggling financially who cannot get into housing who the Trust can help but, because of the volume of the properties that we have and the small turnover that we have ... we are seeing turnovers less and less and less because people do not want to move. If they get into a property that is 2 years old, a 3-bedroom house and it is new, well kept, well maintained, the rents are reasonable, they are going to stay there for as long as they want to.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
Where in your experience do you feel the need is greatest? Are we talking young people? Are we talking the retired or families? Where is the pinch work for you? Where do you keep getting
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust:
Yes, a lot has been said about the older people but I think, to be honest, you have got the younger ones with young families just starting out. All right, the States are trying to make it easier to buy properties, but it is not easy. The prices of properties are ridiculous, totally.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
"Unaffordable" I think is the word, technical word.
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust:
That is right, yes, and I think there is not necessarily an equal balance but I think we need to look at the younger end. Like with us, most of our properties are old flats, as you said. I mean, we have now got a few more houses, like with Clos de Lemprière. We would like more. The more we have, the more we can look after the families. With the older people, you have got a mixture. Now a lot of the parishes are looking at people who are downsizing, but a lot of them are downsizing because they are selling a property so they have got a little bit in the hand. With people who have been in, as I say, lower paid jobs, who are now retired on little or no pension or relying on the States, those are in great need but how you get an idea of the numbers of them is very difficult. We need to look at the people who are retiring and what jobs they are in, et cetera.
[13:15]
Deputy G.P. Southern :
The Housing Department is looking at its transformation programme and looking to develop in the future. One of the things that came out of the Whitehead Report was that we need to regulate the housing trusts. How do you feel that will impact on your activities and how do you see it?
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust:
We would welcome it because we are fine, we are transparent. Ask us anything and we will give you an answer and, as I say, we put our balance sheets on our website. I think we have just gone up to date with 2009 because I noticed it was not on. But I think with that, it needs to be fairly softly, softly, because if the transformation programme becomes complete and the Housing Department becomes a housing trust, then I think it needs to have an independent chairman. We are all looking at the same pot. I would like to see the regulating committee consist of representatives from the housing trusts, representatives from tenants and some outside. We do not need a heavy-handed approach because if you have a heavy-handed approach, that is more money. So all of a sudden, if you are not careful, you have got a chairman who gets paid for so many hours a month and he suddenly decides he needs a secretary and then there is an office. We do not need it, because I think we are all responsible people and we are all looking with the housing trusts ... all the trustees of Les Vaux are honorary. We do it for the love of it, I think, and it is a way of putting something back into an Island which has been good to us and hopefully we think we do a reasonable job of it. But I would hate to see a heavy-handed approach to the regulator. It needs to be there. It needs to be there to protect everybody and to protect us, protect ourselves; but it does not need a mallet to crack a nut.
The Connétable of St. Lawrence :
Where would you expect the funding to come from to pay for a regulator?
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust:
I would like to think that the regulator did not get paid. We do not get paid, so why should a regulator?
Deputy G.P. Southern :
There is an argument that it is a different role, but you seem to be saying as long as communication channels are working between the trusts and their various lords, the tenants and I am glad to hear you say "tenants" because I think in two and a half hours' talking I think we have not mentioned tenants, maybe twice, and that was one, but the tenant involvement as to what is going on is important, I think. Certainly, as we move towards a revamped model, I think it is important that ongoing from there that there is good communication. As you were saying, you visit the tenants. That there is a good contact between tenant and landlord is an important factor, I think.
Housing Trust Management Agent:
We have tenant representatives in most of the estates that we look after. The trust has annual walk-rounds in the estates as well so they split that twice a year. Tenants get invited to meet the trustees and then once a year, at a meeting in January, the tenants, or at least a block representative from each estate, are invited to attend a trust meeting as well to meet the trustees. So we do try and keep the communications flowing, not just with us as managing agent but between the trustees and the tenants as well.
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust:
No, we would like to be seen to have faces so that they do know us and do recognise us and, as we say, once a year we visit each estate and talk to whomever. Yes, often there is the representative to meet us but also, yes, something like Troy Court, you have got people coming and going and we usually try and rope them in as well by saying: "Good morning, we are the trustees of Les Vaux. How are you? How do you like it here?" Then you put your earplugs in. The nice thing is that we do get complimentary replies.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Yes. About the housing gateway, the Affordable Housing Gateway, that will effectively act the same way. What input have you had in the development of these proposals with the Housing Department so far? If you have answered, I apologise but I did not quite
Housing Trust Management Agent:
We have met with Housing. We have given them the names of all of our housing trust waiting list.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
No, I mean have you had any input into the design of this gateway?
Housing Trust Management Agent:
Not through the Les Vaux Housing Trust as much.
The Connétable of St. Martin : The criteria?
Housing Trust Management Agent:
Through us as managing agents for the trust and other properties, yes, we have. We have spoken to Housing on 2 or 3 occasions where they have showed us a copy of the gateway application form. We have given feedback. We have given them advice as to the Social Security input as well.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
So basically I am asking the question because I am still waiting to have update on this gateway, which we are all looking forward to seeing. Imagining that we do not know what it is going to be doing, the next question is: what impact will the Affordable Housing Gateway have on your work?
Housing Trust Management Agent:
I think it will probably impact more on our side of the allocations and in the eligibility. There are two things. Allocation-wise, it will be much quicker and much easier; if there is a central department assessing people it is much fairer. This one individual does not have to go round four different housing trusts and States housing providing the same information, the same banks, the same confirmation of incomes, all these different people. If there is one waiting list, I know that I get a 3-bedroom house coming in in two weeks' time. I can look at that one waiting list, pick some names on that waiting list, interview them and offer them a property. I did not have to go to the Housing Department asking for nominations. A week later, I get two names, then contact them, they do not want them and I have to go back. If we can speed this process up, it is better for the tenants and it is better for the housing trust in trying and reduce voids and arrears.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
So the answer to your question is yes, you would like to co-operate and ... yes.
Housing Trust Management Agent: Yes.
The Connétable of St. Martin : Thank you very much.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
I think it is: "Yes, please. Can we have some of that?" You mentioned earlier that the turnover rate was going down in your properties in particular.
Housing Trust Management Agent:
In the older stock, it is still quite high; somewhere like Troy Court and Perquage Court in St. Lawrence , for example, because they are older stock properties.
Deputy G.P. Southern : Right.
Housing Trust Management Agent:
On the newer stock properties, 3-bedroom houses, new 1-bedroom flats, you might get one a year.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
The follow up question to that was: and what sort of turnover rate are you talking about? How many vacancies do you have in those places?
Housing Trust Management Agent:
In total we had probably about 30 last year. I would guesstimate, without having the figures in front of me, that 20 of those were older stock properties.
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust:
So that is sort of 10 per cent of our stock and it is probably about 10 per cent also of our older stock.
The Connétable of St. Lawrence :
I do not think I have got anything else to ask on that. One thing I would just like to clarify because, Mr. Hewitt, we have had Mr. Van Neste also to speak to us today and the Minister for Housing as well, but we asked Mr. Van Neste whether he personally had had any input into the proposed gateway and the White Paper and he has had. Have you, because I know Mr. Marsh has just said that he has had a lot of input?
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust:
I have not because, unlike Jersey Homes Trust where Mike Van Neste also sort of has the hands- on with regard to the management of the properties, I do not. I have that man.
The Connétable of St. Lawrence : Yes, okay, well.
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust:
Yes, which is why I brought him along today because I knew he would be able to answer most of the questions.
Deputy G.P. Southern : Smart move.
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust: It is called delegation.
The Connétable of St. Lawrence :
Have you reviewed your criteria for waiting lists?
Housing Trust Management Agent: Yes.
The Connétable of St. Lawrence :
Did you say that earlier, that you do review it?
Housing Trust Management Agent:
Yes, we review the people on the waiting list on a regular basis to make sure they are still out there because, half the time, they have been offered a property and they do not come and tell us; so without having the name list growing and growing and growing. We review the eligibility criteria. I think Housing reviewed theirs maybe last year or the year before.
The Connétable of St. Lawrence : 2010.
Housing Trust Management Agent:
We changed ours to the same as theirs at the same time. They rate from the income stream for 1-bedroom, 2-bedroom, 3-bedroom, just to £40,000 a year. So we changed ours at the same time.
The Connétable of St. Lawrence : Yes. I thought you were £50,000?
Housing Trust Management Agent: No, ours is £40,000.
The Connétable of St. Lawrence : Yours is £40,000?
Housing Trust Management Agent: Yes, ours is the same as Housing's is.
The Connétable of St. Lawrence : Yes, okay.
Housing Trust Management Agent:
But, again, going back to what we said before, that is a broad figure. If you have got someone who is looking for a 1-bedroom flat at £50,000, 40,000 is a huge amount to have. If you have got someone who has got four children, £41,000, they are not eligible. You know, you look at the third of their income again and you get a rough idea and that is where I feel probably eligibility criteria needs to be broadened slightly. So it does give the Trust the flexibility to help people who are in need still and Housing cannot and I think Housing know to send people to the Trust because of that reason.
The Connétable of St. Lawrence :
Is there any other way that you work with Housing at all other than you said data, you share that with them and they give you people to allocate?
Housing Trust Management Agent:
Yes, we work with them in all kinds of ways, with antisocial behaviour. We get advice and guidance from them with regards to difficult tenants. Maybe they have a difficult tenant to refer to a housing trust because Housing do not want them or Housing cannot find somewhere suitable for them. But there have been times where trusts have taken difficult cases from Housing in the past and vice versa; so we do work with them on a regular basis, quite closely.
The Connétable of St. Lawrence :
Is that by pre-arranged meetings or as and when something needs to be addressed?
Housing Trust Management Agent:
A bit of both. I used to work for Housing so I have got a good relationship with them and my team who do the allocations policy see them, talk to them or email them on a regular basis as well.
Deputy G.P. Southern : Okay, I am done.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
No, I have no further questions but I would like to thank you for your answers and I am reassured.
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust: That is good.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
Except to say that if there is something you think we have not asked and there is something you would like to tell us, please do. If there is something we have not asked and we should have done, we will be in touch, if we realise.
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust:
Yes, just looking through the list of questions, I would say that I have been involved in meetings regarding the new transformation policy and we have given them all the information that they asked. Also the other thing is that I have reassured the new Minister for Housing in that things seem to be moving forward and trying to get things done. I know he has only got until October and then it is up in the air, but we have got quarterly meetings designated and in the diary right through till September. So, from that point of view, the relationship between the Minister for Housing and the trust is good, certainly from our point of view.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
Good. Well, thank you for your time.
Chairman - Les Vaux Housing Trust: That is lovely, thank you very much indeed.
[13:29]