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Environment Panel
Green Street Police HQ: Traffic and Parking Review hearing with the Minister for Planning and Environment
THURSDAY, 24th JANUARY 2013
Panel:
Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade (Chairman) Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin
Connétable P.J. Rondel of St. John
Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour
Witnesses:
Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour (The Minister for Planning and Environment)
Chief Executive Officer, Department of the Environment
Director – Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services Business Manager, Department of the Environment
In attendance: Scrutiny Officer
[14:02]
Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade (Chairman):
Good afternoon, everybody, and welcome, members of the public and media who are attending this afternoon session of the Environment Scrutiny Panel to consider the traffic and car-parking implications of the proposal to site the new police headquarters at Green Street. With the panel is Deputy Jeremy Maçon; Jeremy is the Chairman of the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel who did the previous review and who has joined us to ensure that our review is joined-up. Members of the panel, myself as Chairman, Deputy Steve Luce and Constable Rondel and our Scrutiny Officer. Minister, would you please introduce your team for the record?
The Minister for Planning and Environment:
I will introduce myself; I am the Minister for Planning and Environment. We have on my right
Business Manager, Environment Department: Business Manager, Department of the Environment.
The Minister for Planning and Environment: On my left
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department: Chief Officer for the Environment Department.
The Minister for Planning and Environment: Further on my left
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services: Director of Projects and the Historic Environment, Department of Environment.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Thank you very much. The media are just going to take one or 2 pictures. Are you done on that? Thank you very much. We have set aside an hour but because we have a series of hearings with other Ministers this afternoon I think we will need to finish promptly at 3.00 p.m. at the latest, so we will try and do our best. Also, can we ask please for voices to be elevated because we have competition with road works, as we have had for a few days here, and these microphones are not the best, so swing the microphone towards you and make sure it picks you up. I would like to start, Minister, please, we are conscious of the fact you have the job of deciding the planning application and that this afternoon is not about trying to get you to speak about the application because ultimately that decision is going to land on your desk. But what we want to talk about is what we regard in the panel as the off-site impact, because this is a building that sits in a site, which has impact on the whole potentially of St. Helier and the Island, and I want to talk to you about planning policies and how they affect, particularly on the issue of public transport. So perhaps we could ask you, Minister, or through your officers, to highlight for us the particular planning policies in the Island Plan, we will start with car-parking, please, which are germane to this matter.
Officers?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services:
I think clearly in considering any planning application and looking at these sorts of issues, the Minister is bound by the policies that are set out in the 2011 Island Plan and what the Minister will have regard to is both the strategic thrust of that document and also the detailed policies within the plan. The issue around travel and transport is not just to do with the specific parking policies in the plan, it is to do with the strategic thrust of the document itself and Members will be familiar with the strategic thrust of the Island Plan, which is to concentrate new development in the existing built-up area of the Island to meet most of the Island's development needs from within the built-up areas, so there is some strategic policies in the plan that are of relevance as well as the detailed parking policy.
Deputy J.H. Young: Is this SP1 to 3?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services: That is right, and also SP6 in the Island Plan itself.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Would you like to explain a bit more just what these policies mean in terms of such a proposal like this; what they mean?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services:
I think in terms of major new developments the Island Plan is seeking to ensure that the Island's development needs are met firstly, but secondly to set out a spatial strategy about where they might be met and in terms of major public operations or public buildings, I think there is a planning assumption that they would be met in the principal centres of the Island and in the case of the police headquarters then in town ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
So it has to be in town in your view?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services: From a planning point of view, we would lay out the spatial strategy, which is set out in the Island Plan. Clearly there is an operational requirement of the users of those builders and so the police
would obviously offer a view as to, from an operational point of view, where they would wish to
most appropriately site their development. So I think from a strategic planning point of view, obviously the Minister for Planning and Environment is there both to provide certainty with a planning document that meets the Island's development needs, but also to balance other objectives like protecting the countryside, protecting the coast, and trying to minimise travel and (overspeaking)
Deputy J.H. Young:
If I can focus you a bit more, car-parking, do those strategies mean that we do not need any car- parking in town?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services: No, you can see the policy regime that is set out in terms of parking provision in town and the plan addresses both private car-parking and public car-parking.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Would you like to tell us, point us to what those policies are?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services: As I say, they are quite clearly set out in the plan. Was your question in relation to public parking or off-street (overspeaking)
Deputy J.H. Young:
Well let us deal with both, because here we have a site that is already an important site for public car-parking, which we are told we will lose I think it is 91 spaces and there will be an immediate demand of a minimum of another 75 spaces for the police users as a result of locating some 300 people in that site of which 220 are going to be there from 7.00 a.m. in the morning, our police force does not quite start at 5.00 a.m., from 7.00 a.m. in the morning until 5.00 p.m. at night. So there is quite a substantial impact, so I am really asking is, what is the importance of that when read against the policies in the Island Plan?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services:
I think it is important to recognise that the Island Plan is a land-use plan, the Minister for Planning and Environment is not the strategic highway authority and he does not have responsibilities for that. In the development of the Island Plan, the Minister has had to have regard to the other policies and strategies of the States and in this case the Minister for Transport and Technical Services. So the Sustainable Transport Policy produced by Transport and Technical Services and
approved by the States in 2010 was material to the Minister in putting forward the Island Plan. In
terms of public off-street car-parking, the Sustainable Transport Policy sets out a clear objective
whereby it seeks to limit or reduce the quantity of long-stay commuter public and private parking in town to seek to support the objective of that document to try and reduce levels of peak travel in Jersey by about 15 per cent. So I think it is important that the panel is aware of the context within which the Island Plan is prepared and the Island Plan's policies simply reflect that objective.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Let me just interrupt there, if you do not mind. Does that mean that a loss of 15 per cent of spaces would be consistent with the policies?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services: I think that is in relation to commuter parking and I think ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
Yes, 15 per cent of commuter spaces ...
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services:
I do not think you can translate it directly into commuter spaces. The Sustainable Transport Policy sets out an objective to reduce peak travel during peak hours by 15 per cent. One of the objectives that they have identified as a means of reducing that is to limit or reduce the quantity of long-stay commuter parking.
Deputy J.H. Young:
We were told yesterday by the Minister for Transport and Technical Services that the surveys show Green Street is predominantly I think about 90 per cent around commuter parking for people working in the eastern part of the town. So are you saying that generally what the Island Plan expects is that some of that requirement will go away; will reduce?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services:
I think the premise that the Island Plan was based on, as I said before, was the Sustainable Transport Policy, and in our discussions with Transport and Technical Services in preparing the Island Plan, we had regard to the levels of use of those car parks and at the time we were advised by T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services) that, while Green Street is a very popular car park and fills with commuters of a morning, there is capacity in other commuter car parks, notably Pier Road, which has capacity of around 200, 250 spaces.
Can I ask you about Pier Road; looking in the Island Plan preamble, it talks about the opportunity in the long-term future of redeveloping Pier Road for residential uses with the fact that for some consistent time Pier Road has had free spaces available. Do you have a comment on that?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services:
I think all I would say is that in the preparation of the Island Plan we had regard to the St. Helier Development and Regeneration strategy, the EDAW study, which looked at levels of use of car parks, looked at the potential shift of car-parking movement from the eastern part of town to the southern part of town, and that is predicated on the delivery of the Esplanade Quarter. So if you recall that the Island Plan has a 10-year timescale, so there was an assumption made that, with the potential delivery of the Esplanade Quarter, the car-parking pressures would move geographically and there would be more pressure on the southern part of the town. On that basis, that may free capacity in other car parks situated in a different part of the town.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Can I change the subject to shopping car-parking. At the moment, for example, we are told that Green Street provides a different function at weekends because it is used for short stays on weekends. What does the policy say in relation to the Sustainable Transport Policy of provision of public parking for shoppers?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services:
I think the Sustainable Transport Policy is looking to increase the quantity of short-stay shopper parking and the Island Plan would seek to support that. In essence, a lot of that is down to the management of the spaces that exist; it is a function for the transport authority to determine whether the spaces that are provided in the Island's car parks are going to be available all day or for a shorter period.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So could some of the capacity in Green Street, spare capacity if it can be available in the way you said, become used alternatively for shoppers?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services:
I think that is the case at the moment. Clearly Green Street serves part of that function during weekends when it is not full with commuters and it serves shoppers. So it has the potential to serve (overspeaking)
Deputy J.H. Young:
So a loss of 91 spaces affects both groups?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services:
It will have an impact potentially on both groups but, as I say, that is a matter for the transport authority to advise the Minister of their view of that in relation to a specific planning application and that would be dealt with through the consultation with the transport (overspeaking)
Deputy J.H. Young:
Can I just change tack slightly and I will hand over to Deputy Maçon. If this were not a public- sector building, if this was a private-sector office development on this site, what would you require by way of on-site car-parking provision under the policies?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services: That would depend on the scale of the property and the nature of the use.
Deputy J.H. Young:
But would you allow them to build offices there with no on-site car-parking?
[14:15]
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services: That would be a matter for the Minister to determine in the context of the (overspeaking)
Deputy J.H. Young:
What do the policies say? Do the policies encourage the creation of office space, private-sector office space with no car-parking?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services: The Island Plan policies do not set the standards for parking. What the Island Plan policies say is that the Minister should ensure that development proposals have sufficient provision for access and transport. The Minister has published guidance in relation to car-parking standards, which would need to be assessed as part of a development proposal.
Deputy J.H. Young:
I am going to hand you over Jeremy I think.
Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour :
On this relationship between the Planning Department Sustainable Transport Policy, when we asked the Minister for Transport and Technical Services about the goal that they have by 2015 to reduce 15 per cent commuter car parking, when we asked how it is going: "What level are you at?" the Minister was unable to give us a response and the question I want to ask you is the relation between the departments, the feedback, what type of dialogue and communication is there between T.T.S. in regards to the Sustainable Transport Policy and the Planning Department with regards to how you advise the Minister on the policies within the Island Plan?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services:
I think clearly the Island Plan, as a land-use plan, has a potential to deliver or to assist the achievement of other States' objectives such as the Sustainable Transport Policy, and clearly, dependent on where development is located in the Island, that is going to influence the amount of travel that people undertake and the type of transport that they use. So in that sense the planning system can help to deliver those objectives, so by consulting T.T.S. on the planning applications that the Minister receives there is a close working relationship between the two departments and we would expect the Transport and Technical Services Department to provide advice to the Planning Department about how development proposals will impact upon the delivery of the sustainable transport objectives.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Can I just paraphrase, because I would like to understand in simple terms what you are saying, are you saying to this panel that, whether it is private sector or public sector, the impact on car- parking is not really a planning policy matter, it is a matter for the Minister for Transport and Technical Services under the sustainable transport strategy to decide?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services: No, what I am saying is that the Minister will have regard to the advice that he gets from Transport and Technical Services and he will take a view of that as a material consideration in the planning process.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Would you like to elaborate, Minister?
The Minister for Planning and Environment:
No, I think the Officer has said it in a nut shell. As to whether or not it is advisable to have transport planning with T.T.S. and not with Planning per se, in order to address the strategic
planning issues that are cross-Department, that is a moot point. Personally I think it would be
more useful in order to address those problems; that is not the system that we have at the moment so we do the best under the circumstances.
Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin :
Minister, in policy TT9 it starts, and it is easier to quote it at you: "Residential development with more than 50 units of accommodation or developments that will generate significant amounts of travel will be required to submit a travel plan." Do you regard this application as a development that is going to generate a significant amount of travel?
The Minister for Planning and Environment: I think clearly it does.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
In that case the question is then have you received a travel plan with the application?
The Minister for Planning and Environment:
I have not considered the application in any detail at the moment and I am not at liberty to comment on it.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Perhaps the officers could tell us, do we have a plan? Do you have one from Home Affairs that goes with the application? Sorry to interrupt.
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services:
I am not allowed to comment on the details of the application, but certainly the advice that was offered through the site selection process identified that this policy would be triggered by such a proposal and that a travel plan would be required in association with this form of development. However, that does not mean to say that it has to be submitted as part of the initial application, it may be conditioned as part of any approval.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So that means you give consent first and you get the plan after?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services:
A travel plan can deal with a number of issues around how people travel to the site, what mode of transport they use and what sort of provision is made on the site to encourage different forms of transport.
Deputy J.H. Young:
I will hand back to Deputy Luce but I will reserve the right to come back in. Do you want me to carry on?
The Deputy of St. Martin : No, carry on.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Can you tell us, when we get these transport plans, are they enforceable?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services:
It depends what you mean in terms of a transport plan and which elements you are talking about as being enforceable. If there are issues there around things like visibility displays, levels of bike parking, car parking, showers, physical things that the department is able to have control over in terms of them being physically provided as part of the development, then they are enforceable. However, if it contains standards about percentage of staff walking to work or catching a bus to work then clearly they are hard to enforce through the planning system.
Deputy J.H. Young:
All right, because one of the things I noticed in the policies, it says that the Minister, in considering a transport plan, which does rather suggest it needs to be done as part of the application, deciding how much weight to give a transport plan in deciding an application, should have regard to the degree of enforceability. That tends to suggest that the plan should be there now and what we are trying to ask is to what extent can we rely on this plan, which at the moment we do not have.
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
I think, if I can jump in, there are two issues in terms of transport. There is a transport assessment, there has been a transport assessment submitted with the application, I think invariably we will end up conditioning a travel plan as well, so there will be two bits of work, but there will be a bit of transport information that is submitted with planning applications to help with decision making. A travel plan invariably ends up with an occupier of the building telling us how they think their building is going to work and it will vary depending on the occupier, their workforce, and how they think their staff are going to attend and travel to work and so it will vary between company to company.
Deputy J.H. Young:
The Minister for Transport and Technology Services told us yesterday that he would have
expected to see what was being said there about workplace showers, changing facilities and some
incentives so that people travelling to work use alternative means other than cars so that they could therefore contain the potential demands for car-parking, which will fall upon Green Street, within the limits that would be manageable.
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
Yes, what we often see, if I can use this as an example, a private office scheme, we do see different office schemes applying different standards, so often the company will say: "We think this is our operational requirement, most of our staff park in public car parks or they will get the bus to work or walk", so some buildings have more parking spaces than others. So it really does vary. This building in particular, certainly the scheme by its very nature in terms of who is going to be in there, does have changing and all of those facilities built into it, it is a police station so there are obviously changing rooms and all of that for people getting in and out of their uniforms and so I think the physical infrastructure in terms of, can someone cycle to work, shower and change? So I think it will invariably be part of the building anyway, but that does vary depending on the occupier.
Deputy J.H. Young:
But you are not aware of any incentives to make that happen?
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
I think, whether the States of Jersey Police will then have a sort of a green travel incentive for its employees, I do not know, I think that is probably one for the Home Affairs Minister.
Deputy J.H. Young:
We will ask the Minister for Home Affairs when we meet him. I think Constable Rondel, you wanted to come in about bikes and so forth and so on?
Connétable P.J. Rondel of St. John :
Yes, I wanted to come in about bicycles and also about disabled. I noticed in the plans that something like 35 motorcycle spaces and 50-odd bicycle spaces are to be provided across the road on the south side of the building on La Route du Fort. I presume they will be in the big part used by the staff from within police headquarters and so therefore there would be very little space left once people are at work at 8.30 a.m., 9.00 a.m., for the general public. But say there is 20 per cent left for the general public if it is taken up by the police officers, that being the case what security are you going to put in place, given, if the public get to know that there are police scooters, cycles, et cetera, parked outside the police station, what security is there going to be in place built into your plans to make sure that those vehicles and cycles are not going to be vandalised, because young people may take it upon themselves to go and vandalise those things at night when officers are on duty.
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
To be honest, I do not know, I guess the level of security that applies to facilities within the police control will be dependent on what the police feel is appropriate for their operational area. So I think it is probably a question of the Minister for Home Affairs later today as to whether there is a feeling that that area requires more security than just natural surveillance.
The Connétable of St. John :
Would it not be sensible to have those pieces of kit, for want of a better word, those vehicles and cycles, in the area, under the covered area of the car park, where you have security cameras in there already?
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
I think it will depend on who is going to be using the spaces. There is a bit of joint use of those spaces and clearly they will need to be publicly available as well, but invariably I think that will be a matter for the police to advise whether they feel that is a security risk or not; they may feel it is not a security risk by virtue of the police station providing a natural surveillance of that area anyway, but I do not know, is the short answer.
The Connétable of St. John :
I will come back to that later. Let us move across to disabled; that is an area that really concerns me, looking at 8.22, wheelchair access to the building. It says in 8.22 I think: "Disabled access, accessible WCs have been provided at all operational levels." But nothing there covers, if somebody is disabled and they have to be detained, what facilities are there in the cells or in the detention areas for the disabled people and the access to those facilities?
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
Again, I am making the statement, I would assume this police station will be designed in line with Home Office guidelines on what a police station should now look like, so I would have thought that would be automatically built in to deal with all sections of the community, both visually impaired, physically impaired, sections of our community, so I would expect ... what we have been told obviously is the design is compliant with Home Office guidelines, U.K. (United Kingdom) Home Office guidelines, so I would have thought that would be built in.
The Connétable of St. John :
I would expect, given that we have moved down the road now, that anybody, whatever your disability, should be able to have access to 100 per cent of the building. Therefore, I would expect
anything that is States buildings should have that 100 per cent accessibility, therefore, if we are
employing somebody who is disabled, that person does not get marginalised because he cannot or she cannot get to a particular part of the building.
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
I would agree with that sentiment. I am sorry, I do not have the detailed plans before me, but I would assume that you would be able to travel up the various floors of the building if there is a lift access in there, or whatever the internal space standard is, but I would expect that to comply with Home Office guidelines and therefore that should be covered.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Could I just ask, does that mean then, in answer to the Constable's concerns over these matters, you will give a commitment that you will check that as part of the application process these matters will be checked and if they are not found compliant this application will not be pursued?
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
Some of these matters are covered by the building byelaws in terms of accessibility, so to comply with building bylaws that is where we cover general access to buildings issues. The planning system invariably does not go into huge amounts of detail in terms of the internal workings of buildings, the majority of planning decisions are fundamentally based on the principle of use on the site, how they are going to affect the site and what these things look like. The internal workings of buildings in terms of their safety, their fire safety, their accessibility, are generally covered by the bylaws, the buildability if you like of those (overspeaking)
The Connétable of St. John :
But can you give me a guarantee, this is a Government building, that we will have 100 per cent access. Minister, I would expect that from you; I need that guarantee that we have 100 per cent access for anybody working or visiting that building who is disabled in whatever way.
The Minister for Planning and Environment:
Do we have 100 per cent access on all of our other buildings?
The Connétable of St. John :
No, there would not be, but building a new building from scratch, if we are building it, it has to be built to the highest standard and not cut the corners that many States buildings have in the past, we need to make sure that everybody is entitled ... not entitled to be in that building, but anybody who is working in that building or has to be in that building who is disabled has the same access as an able-bodied person.
The Minister for Planning and Environment: I think it is fair to say that one would expect that.
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
I think the guarantee we can give, we would expect this building to comply with the building bylaws of the time, so that is what we would expect of all applicants.
[14:30]
Deputy J.H. Young:
I would like to clear up, before we close this and move back to traffic with Deputy Luce , are you saying that you will be satisfied in your justice buildings with minimum standards and not a standard appropriate, the best for a major public building that we are investing money in?
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
All we can apply are the laws and the regulations that are currently approved. If applicants want to go further than those then obviously that is welcome but our starting point (overspeaking)
Deputy J.H. Young:
The answer must be no then, because am I right that the minimum standards do not meet what the ...
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
I do not know; I would assume that our accessibility standards along with fire safety and other things expect disability to be taken into account in how people access especially public buildings, so I would expect those standards to be met. The degree of accessibility to every corner of the building, I cannot answer at the moment, but that would be something (overspeaking)
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Our terms of reference do not include anything about ...
Deputy J.H. Young: No. Deputy Luce .
The Connétable of St. John :
I just want to finish this because there is access coming in from the cemetery, et cetera, up some steps. I sincerely hope that those will also have wheelchair access from the cemetery through to the back end of the police headquarters. Any access into that building, and they only refer to steps in here, they do not refer to ramps or anything else.
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
What we would expect is the appropriate access is given to all sections of the community, so if you are in a wheelchair there will need to be access for people in wheelchairs to get in to the public areas of that building. Again, the details of that in terms of ramps, the degree of ramp, et cetera, will be dealt with under the bylaws, but I guess the message is, this building will have to comply with the building bylaws and (overspeaking)
Deputy J.H. Young:
I am going to close that down now (overspeaking)
The Deputy of St. Martin :
I would just like to get back to travel and transport, which is what we are supposed to be discussing. Minister, there is a large width of road in front of the proposed police station, which I estimate could be as wide as 5 car lanes wide. My question to you is, do you or could you have any input into the redesign or the way that road is configured in the future?
The Minister for Planning and Environment:
I am not sure that my powers extend to road layouts; that is normally an issue for T.T.S., but I think comment could be made, whether or not I would be able to (overspeaking)
The Deputy of St. Martin :
I am very keen to explore the idea of buses being used as the primary access to the police station with the constraints on car parking, sustainable road transport policy, and this sort of thing. I would very much like to see in the future people using the buses as the first option to get to the police station. But in order to facilitate that to be easier, I would like to see the bus lay-by on the south side of La Route du Fort retained and not giving over to bikes and motorcycles, and I would also like to see the opportunity for a bus lay-by on the north side of La Route du Fort, so that on both sides in close proximity to the police station there are safe places for people to wait and what have you without disrupting traffic flow. Can you have an input into that at all or is that purely going to be a T.T.S. matter?
The Minister for Planning and Environment:
As I mentioned earlier, I think it is predominantly a T.T.S. issue but with a wider strategic hat on and the interest in how buildings operate inside the community, I think it is certainly something that could be contemplated by making comment.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So, could you deal with that as part of the application, Minister? This issue, yesterday we were told that the Minister for Transport and Technical Services said that he believed that the loss of the car-parking spaces could be accommodated if there was a shift towards public transport services. What we were also told is at the moment the designs that we have, the scheme, the road layout that has been proposed, effectively the buses stop in the road, effectively holding up the traffic, which is a problem. We lose a bus lay-by and we have another major bus picking-up point. The Minister for Transport and Technical Services did agree that he would come back to us and look at the opportunity of revising that layout, but the question I think for you is, do you have powers in dealing with your application to require that?
The Minister for Planning and Environment:
I think I have general powers to ensure, by consultation through T.T.S., who are in charge of transport and technical services, that any bodies that are dealing with planning in the round are delivering in accordance with the policies that have been agreed as to how they operate. So I do have a legitimate interest in being able to ask for travel and transport plans to be justified and through T.T.S. working with the Minister for Home Affairs to satisfy those questions.
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
If I could answer for the panel, the Minister does have powers to require a planning obligation agreement for off-site highway works, and we often see planning applications where we have a transport authority comment to say that, for instance, a new roundabout is required or a new crossing or a new bus shelter, those sort of things. So we often see ... we do see planning applications that have a legal agreement entered into that then require the developer to enter into an agreement with T.T.S. to provide a bit of transport infrastructure. So, yes, it can be done. I guess my question in this point back to you would be, it would depend on whether that requirement would affect the planning application itself; it may well be that sort of quite structural thing with the road, it may be better to incorporate as part of the planning application in the first instance. If it was not in the first instance and it was related to land outside of the red line of the application, yes, it can be dealt with by legal agreement, an off-site requirement, backed up with the ... what we would rely on in that case would be the transport authority saying: "We want this as transport authority to make this development work." We would then require that through the planning process.
The Connétable of St. John :
On transport now, it has been made known by the Minister for Transport and Technical Services
yesterday there is a hotel car park or something similar that is being looked at by Property
Holdings with a view to use by the States of Jersey Police and their cohorts, which is in the area. Could you enlighten us on that one please?
The Minister for Planning and Environment: I have not been informed of that.
The Connétable of St. John : The officers?
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department: No, I do not know anything about that.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
I wonder if you could just explain your interpretation of the policy regarding private car parks and is it correct that the Island Plan discourages the creation or extension of private car parks?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services:
I think the issue there is again tied back to the Sustainable Transport Policy and the Island Plan discourages the provision of private non-residential car parks, or private car parks that are not linked to either a residential or a commercial use, in other words the provision of private car parks to encourage commuters. So what the Island Plan is seeking to do is to discourage the provision of those facilities as a way of influencing the level of private commuting use into St. Helier and that just reflects the objectives of the Sustainable Transport Policy.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Can I ask the reason for that, because would I not be right, if you do not provide commercial car parks, will that demand not go into public ones?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services: There are two issues: one, this is about private car parks that are unrelated to either an economic use or a residential use, so we are not saying we are trying to prohibit private car-parking per se, and we would expect a minimum level of private car-parking associated with a certain level of development. What we are trying to discourage here is speculation in the provision of private car parks just to sell car-parking spaces rather than for the users of a building, and that is consistent with the objectives of the Sustainable Transport Policy.
Deputy J.H. Young:
The objective being of the policy is to try and achieve car-parking space where it should be with the uses that are being permitted.
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services: Yes, that is right.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Whether they be private or public sector.
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services: Yes, that is right.
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
Yes, I think the overall philosophy of the transport policy, if we are to reduce commuter car- parking, or commuter travel should I say, you need to have a carrot and a stick approach to transport policy. Some of that carrot may well be enhanced public transport links, making your cycle routes and your walking routes far more accessible and usable. On the other side, the stick side of the policy would be to use financial measures to charge more for parking or to reduce the stock of private car-parking, so physically stop people coming in and parking. So very often in transport policy you need to see both operating to get behaviour changed. So what that policy in the Island Plan does is dovetail with the transport policy in trying to prevent another form of parking being provided, which would then be counterproductive to getting people on buses, cycles and walking.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Can I just have another go to try and understand those policies? If it was a private development, you have told us that it would be up to the Minister in consultation with T.T.S. to discern how much on-site car-parking you provided for private offices on the site.
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services: The Minister has a set of guidelines, which he issues, in terms of levels of parking standards, so (overspeaking)
Deputy J.H. Young:
The Minister for Planning and Environment has?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services: That is right. So that would be the expectation of a level of car-parking to be provided.
Deputy J.H. Young: Are they published?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services: Yes, they are published and they are available on the (overspeaking)
Deputy J.H. Young:
So how many spaces, if this were a private sector headquarters, how many spaces would be required on site?
Director - Policy, Projects and the Historic Environment, Planning and Building Services: I cannot tell you in terms of I have not looked at the (overspeaking)
Deputy J.H. Young:
But you could let us have the guidelines to work it out?
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department: Yes, we could have a look at the guidelines to do that.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Because one of the comments we have seen is that, if those guidelines were applied, it would not meet that. Could I just ask in the alternative, in TT10, which you referred us to, which is the off- street public parking provision policy, there is a statement specific to Green Street in there, if I just read it because I would like you to explain what has been done, it says here: "The redevelopment of the existing Pier Road multi-storey car park on the land identified for the extension of Green Street", which is what we are talking about, "for alternative uses will be kept under review during the plan relative to the demand for use and availability of off-street public parking provision here and the outcome of any further studies undertaken within the context of proposal 12, St. Helier regeneration zones." Can you tell us whether that particular statement has now been resolved? Have you ticked all those boxes as it were? Have you now done that review? Have you now checked on the use, availability and so on? Can you point us to where we will find the conclusions?
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
No, that work has not been undertaken. Clearly the plan was approved and adopted by the States in July 2011; what the plan says is that we will review those parking standards on a biennial basis, so a review of that is due in 2013. We are undertaking work with T.T.S. at the moment to look at our car-parking provision throughout the town, specifically in relation to north of town, but we will be considering that in the generality of St. Helier in line with the policy set out there.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So this particular requirement, which relates clearly to this area, because it is named in the policy, has not been fulfilled yet?
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
No, I would not say that. I would go back to where I started at in terms of what I said earlier about what the plan said in relation to the use of car parks such as Pier Road and Green Street. This is a 10-year plan. At the time that the plan was produced, T.T.S. were advising us that there was spare capacity in their commuter spaces and that, depending on how the waterfront developed, that capacity may become greater as more parking was taken up on the waterfront. So you have to be cognisant of the fact that it is a 10-year plan and it needs to cover the period from the adoption of the plan right up to 2020.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Minister, under proposal 25 it says that a study to investigate the feasibility and desirability of increasing the capacity of Snow Hill car park will be undertaken. Can you apprise us if any of that work has been done or how far we are with that project?
The Minister for Planning and Environment: Does it say who will undertake it?
The Deputy of St. Martin :
It says it will be undertaken as part of the Island Plan during the Island Plan period subject to availability of funding.
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
I believe T.T.S. have recently undertaken some work to look at that.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
So there is no firm conclusions on that at the moment?
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
As I say, I believe T.T.S. have done that; that was an element also in their Sustainable Transport Policy, so the plan is simply reflecting that.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Let me just jump in. Policy TT10 talks, and you mentioned it briefly, talking about the Esplanade Quarter, it says: "Esplanade Quarter need 520 spaces in a M.S.C.P. (multi-storey car park) to replace public off-street parking provision on existing Esplanade Quarter surface level car park." So what I am asking there is, there is predicted to be a reduction in the Esplanade Quarter, but that is then to be replaced with some sort of multi-storey car park. Is that perceived to be within that area or somewhere else?
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
I think the development of Esplanade Quarter is dependent on replacing the level of surface car- parking with car-parking underground; that is what the plans say.
[14:45]
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
But within that same locality?
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department: Yes, and that is what it says in the waterfront master plan.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Because we are on TT10, I noticed the policy mentions a threshold number of spaces for public car-parking provision of 4,000 spaces. We were told yesterday by the Minister for Transport and Technical Services that, with the loss of Bath Street, we effectively now have gone below the threshold and of course the loss of spaces in Green Street will further take us down below that threshold even lower. Could you tell us what the implications of that are as far as this policy TT10 regarding public car-parking spaces ...?
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
I would expect the Minister for Transport and Technical Services to provide that advice to the Minister for Planning and Environment in his determination of Police H.Q. (headquarters), so you need to take that (overspeaking)
Deputy J.H. Young: Have you had that advice?
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
I cannot comment on the application; I do not know what the consultation response has been.
Deputy J.H. Young:
But you would expect that to be a material element in the application consideration?
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
I would expect the Minister for Transport and Technical Services to advise the Minister for Planning and Environment about his views on the impact of the proposal on the level of public parking provision in the (overspeaking)
Deputy J.H. Young:
When you wrote that policy, can I ask, that threshold, what did that mean? Was that your assessment of what we needed?
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
As I said before, it is based on the Sustainable Transport Policy, which sets out a clear objective that the level of commuter parking should either be maintained or reduced and that the quantity of short-stay parking should be increased, so effectively it was taking the existing stock and saying that we should manage that in accord with the objectives of the Sustainable Transport Policy.
The Connétable of St. John :
You are aware obviously that at peaks there is 1,100 vehicles an hour going through the tunnel and along Route du Fort. On your plan, or on the plan, and this was touched on briefly by Deputy Luce , there are buses stopping on the highway and it was raised yesterday that, with the number of buses every 20 minutes on that route and if they each were to stop for loading and unloading or one or 2 people getting on or off the bus in an hour, and they stop for one minute to do that particular operation, you could have quite extensive delays in backup of traffic. Do you think the design that is being proposed where there is no lay-by for any buses is appropriate?
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
Yes, we would take the views of the T.T.S. department in determining that. The suitability of highway infrastructure around a development is specifically commented on by T.T.S. and I believe they have commented that it is adequate. So we would take our colleague transport engineer,
highway engineer, advice into the planning process to advise us on that.
The Connétable of St. John :
Minister, is there any pressure being brought on you or your colleague at T.T.S. to make this site work, via the Chief Minister and your fellow Ministers?
The Minister for Planning and Environment: I could not possibly comment.
The Connétable of St. John : You do not want to comment?
The Minister for Planning and Environment:
I do not think there is a comment that I could make at the moment.
The Connétable of St. John :
So you will not confirm or otherwise?
The Minister for Planning and Environment:
No, but I think you should take some comfort from the Island Plan page 297, 8.9, in the reference given to the weight to be given to the travel plan in a planning decision will be influenced by the extent to which it materially affects the acceptability of the development proposed and the degree to which it can be lawfully secured. So there is an element of flexibility in the Minister's armoury, if you like, in order to allow certain questions to be asked in order to arrive at a particular weighting on the materiality or not of those travel issues.
The Connétable of St. John :
That being the case, so you are happy that this is just not a knee-jerk reaction to the previous sites ...
The Minister for Planning and Environment:
Certainly, without getting into the decision-making process itself, I would certainly expect to balance the travel plan that has been put forward by the transport authorities in conjunction with the comments by the sponsoring department, which is Home Affairs, to deliver this infrastructure project and balance those against any further comments from the public or any other bodies who are interested in transport matters. That is what the decision-making process is about.
The Connétable of St. John :
Thank you, Minister, it is obvious you are not going to answer my question.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Thank you for that, and a very helpful Minister, you are saying, when you decide this application, are you planning to have a ministerial meeting to consider it?
The Minister for Planning and Environment:
I would have thought that would be the course of action that I would take because it is a very important issue and one that other States Members and the States Assembly have expressed an interest in, so as far as I am concerned I should really play all the decision-making decisions by the book.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Will you be having the transport engineers and the Minister for Transport and Technical Services into that session to hear their opinions on these questions of traffic and transport that we have heard are crucial to the Island Plan policies? Will you do that?
The Minister for Planning and Environment:
If indeed there is a suggestion among the comments, and certainly the output from the 2 Scrutiny processes that are underway, that suggest that there should be particular attention paid to these issues at perhaps a higher level then obviously I would have to take that into account and conduct the affairs appropriately.
Deputy J.H. Young:
For what you just said, Minister, thank you for that, the transport plans, in order to do what you have described, that suggests very strongly that you need the transport plans at the time of deciding the application. Will you confirm that please?
The Minister for Planning and Environment:
One cannot consider the transport and travel plans if no plans are presented to me before arriving at a consideration of the items that are within them. It is obvious I cannot make these decisions in the dark.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Thank you, Minister, so if no transport plans are there, you will not be able to determine the application?
The Minister for Planning and Environment:
Absolutely. Now, whether or not that presents a material weighting of the importance of those travel issues will not, under the Law and the flexibility that the Law gives me to decide those issues as part of the planning application, I cannot really go any further, other than to say that there is that capacity to act in that way and if I do choose to act in that way it will be after certain levers, if you like, have been pulled by the public, by any comments made by the Scrutiny panels, or indeed by any of the other bodies who are party to putting forward the application or wanting to have some input into the decision-making process.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Thank you, well we certainly are aiming to complete a report on this subject. Deputy Luce , you wanted to come in?
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Yes, Minister, I have a question about Green Street car park but, before I get there, I've got a question I've asked once before, which will not appear to be directly related, but as we all know this is the second set of plans that you have had put before you because the first one you deemed to be too high. Can I ask why, given the location of the application being quite close to multi- storey flats and with a backdrop of Fort Regent, why you felt in this location that height is an issue at all?
The Minister for Planning and Environment:
As with so many of the plans, I do not think were referred to me in that capacity, I think the departmental advice was to the effect that it was considered by the Department that the height of the building was excessive to what would be deemed to be acceptable under the planning policies that we are operating under.
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
I can help there, we certainly engaged with the applicant at a pre-application stage in terms of some indicative scale and massing of the building. While there is some height, certainly to the west of the site, if you go east of the site there is a lot of lower-level buildings and we have the cemetery and residential properties, so I would say from just a factual sort of analysis of the site, the height does go from ... there are higher buildings to lower buildings, therefore this building has to fit into the streetscape and this overall design concept. So, yes, there are some challenging ... I think in design terms there are challenges to the east because of the residential properties and also there are residential properties to the west where there are flats. So clearly it is about seeing how that building feels and sits into that street scene.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
My follow up question, Chairman, was just to go to the Green Street car park. Given that in the future we know the Green Street car park is going to be demolished and rebuilt, would it be correct to assume that there would not be an issue rebuilding the car park to the height of the proposed police station, whatever that ends up at, given that the 2 buildings are touching?
The Minister for Planning and Environment: You mean there would not be a height issue?
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Would I be correct to assume that it would not be a problem to build a new Green Street car park up to the same height as the police station, whatever that was?
The Minister for Planning and Environment:
That could be a design option I would have thought. It is not necessarily one that has been contemplated by the authorities who are putting forward the particular application.
Chief Executive Officer, Environment Department:
I think we would just need to assess any impacts on the other side of that proposal, so we would just need to see how a building of that height would sit with its neighbouring uses to the north and to the east, so anything is possible depending on its design I think.
The Connétable of St. John :
Chairman, when we put a question to the Minister and/or an officer, I would expect solely the officer, if he had put the question, or the Minister to answer, not a follow-through by the officer on the back of the Minister, because I notice when the Minister said earlier on he was not aware of the height of the building, et cetera, that happened outside of the ... then the officers came in on the back of that. Surely we need to have each question detailed, the answer given by the Minister and the answer given by the officer.
Deputy J.H. Young:
You make a good point. Minister, do you want to add to what was said on that particular point, do you want to clear up any ... clarify your answer on that point or are you content with what was said?
The Minister for Planning and Environment:
I think I am content with what was said. The discussions, as far as I am aware of them, were at a pre-application stage.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Minister, I have a couple of points because we are running towards close, in the submission that T.T.S. made to you, this was not signed by the Minister, this is the submission, which is part of the application, which I think is on the public website, written by the Manager, Transport Policy. The Minister did confirm to us that he had seen this yesterday although he had not signed it and he was aware of its contents. There are a couple of things I want to ask you and/or your officers on this and I think the first one is a political question, the representation also includes part of the benefits of the siting of the police at Green Street as being that it releases land for housing, which the Minister told us yesterday is the Summerland site, which is also an argument that appears in the Council of Ministers' position on this. Could I ask, is that going to be a factor that comes into the planning decision that you have to make on this site, the fact that, by putting it here, housing then would be enabled on Summerland? I ask that because I asked the question yesterday whether it is true that wherever the police go in town that potentially would be the case, would you tell us whether that is a significant factor?
The Minister for Planning and Environment:
I think, from a technical and a legal point of view, I am not specifically entitled to link a number of sites together in deciding an application that comes forward in its own right. This of course kind of delivers difficulties to any Minister for Planning and Environment across the board in that strategic planning issues have to be considered in the round and ostensibly kind of give rise to consideration of more than one site in terms of the benefits or disbenefits that any particular application might bring. You have heard from the officers that under the Planning Law that there is major consideration of the external parts of the building but not necessarily from that Department the same consideration as to how these buildings fit into the spatial network as far as it goes within the Island Plan. You have also heard that the material considerations that are to be considered for the internal layouts or whatever again are specifically picked up by building regulation issues or orders rather than at the planning decision end. So I think you raise a particular point, but in order to be in a position whereby I must not be seen or must not operate in a way that brings bias to a particular decision, I think the Summerland issue has to be kind of put to one side.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Thank you, Minister. The other point I want to ask is the T.T.S. submission also deals with the loss of car-parking spaces in the north of town master plan area because of the town park decision not to put underground parking in as the master plan recommend, where there is effectively a loss of 390 public car-parking spaces.
The T.T.S. submission says that these will be expected to be compensated by public parking, this is, on a number of 4 sites: Jersey Gas, Tunnel Street; Le Masurier Site, Bath Street; Ann Street Brewery and Ann Court. Well Ann Court of course is a publicly owned site but the other 3 are privately owned. Together there is projected 138 for Jersey Gas, 210 for Bath Street, and Ann Street 110. Of course we know that Le Masurier have told us that their scheme will not happen. Can you give us any assurance or any evidence to support that what T.T.S. are saying in that submission has validity?
The Minister for Planning and Environment:
I think again you raise an interesting point as to why, in my view and opinion, I would locate the transport planning function within the Environment Department, because the bulk of the planning issues should really be addressed, particularly for the strategic aspects in the round, and you highlight a potential area of difficulty if indeed you have departmental drift, if I can call it that, in different directions.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So really this part of the submission you would not be giving too much weight to?
The Minister for Planning and Environment:
No, I think, bearing in mind the (I have to be careful with my words) scenarios that were painted and worked through in relation to wanting to put public car-parking at perhaps no expense to the States underneath the town park area and the reluctance on behalf of T.T.S. at the time to consider those options, and to perhaps place greater emphasis on the Green Street facilities to get us out of those particular problems, particularly while the work is undertaken for the cavern extensions and what have you at Ann Court and Ann Street, it seems somewhat odd that perhaps, before the ink is dry on that, again we may be having a different kind of assessment of the importance or lack of importance of the Green Street facilities in the overall parking in terms for the Island within the Sustainable Transport Policy and I think you do have perhaps further questions that you could address to the Minister for Transport and Technical Services to elicit his overall direction, which appears to change.
Deputy J.H. Young:
I think we are just on 3.00 p.m., do Members want to follow up any points that you feel we have not covered? Minister, I would like to thank you for your and your officers' answers. Thank you for that, you have helped us immensely, and with that I will close this particular session.