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Environment Panel
Green Street Police HQ: Traffic and Parking Review hearing with the Minister for Home Affairs
THURSDAY, 24th JANUARY 2013
Panel:
Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade (Chairman) Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin
Connétable P.J. Rondel of St. John
Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour
Witnesses:
Senator B.I. Le Marquand (The Minister for Home Affairs)
Also present: Scrutiny Officer
[16:16]
Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade (Chairman):
I formally open this third afternoon session of the Environment Scrutiny Panel into our public hearing on the car-parking and transport impact of the proposed new police headquarters at Green Street. Joining the panel is Deputy Jeremy Maçon who is chairman of the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel - he is joining us so that we can try and join up, to follow on from the piece of work we did earlier - Deputy Stephen Luce and Constable Rondel, members of the panel, and also our Scrutiny Officer who keeps us working on the right lines. We have set aside up until 5.00 p.m. for this if that is okay, Minister.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is fine. I have any amount of time until 5.00 p.m.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Just to give you a bit of a heads up, we have already met with the Minister for Transport and Technical Services and explored what you might call the transport nuts and bolts of the proposal and the Minister for Planning and Environment to talk about the policies that he will have to use when judging the application under the Island plan and also the particular points from the parish in relation to access and parking. Of course, a lot of these issues resolve very much to you as user, you and your operational department and the way in which the building is going to be used operationally. So I think we want to kind of focus in on those aspects with you, but in the end we will, in our report, want to see how much evidence we can obtain which will enable that balance of judgment to be made as to whether or not what is being said to us is real and can be converted into results, particularly the shift of travel. There seems to be no doubt whatsoever that the project will lose a substantial number of existing car-park spaces and impose potential demands of additional car-parking, in all somewhere between 160 and 170 spaces, and that is based on the number of 75. That is based on 91 lost existing spaces as well as 75 being the maximum expected car-parking call from ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
The figures I have been given in my brief say 65.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Okay. So we have a difference of 10. I think we accepted that yesterday. Perhaps you can check this out. How many people will be working in the building on a daytime shift?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Well, what I am told is that the maximum number will be 220. That is the figure I have been given.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Yes. That ties in with what we were given.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That, of course, presupposes that they are all there. If I can just explain to you the structure of the police force, first of all you have your uniformed shift of which there are 5. There are 21 people on each shift.
Deputy J.H. Young:
How many on each, sorry?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
We have got 21 people on each shift. Now, generally speaking, there is one shift in operation but there is a certain amount of double-shifting for the particular busy times of Friday night and Saturday night. Sometimes that can become Sunday night if there is a bank holiday or whatever. So your total number of staff, I am told, is of the order of 330. That is higher than I thought. I know that with the financing that we have got for the 3-year plan that the number of police officers is going to be of the order of 227. So that would be public servants and so on, but I am told that the peak number in the building at sometime between 7.00 a.m. and 5.00 p.m. on weekdays will be 220. People do not generally realise this, but in reality the majority of police officers do work an 8.00 a.m. to 4.00 p.m. or 9.00 a.m. to 5.00 p.m. day. If you have taken off the 105 for the 5 times 21, what you are left with is pretty well that.
Deputy J.H. Young:
What we were told yesterday, Minister, was that the survey work indicated that the Green Street car park is currently occupied predominantly by commuters. It was somewhere around 90%, on the survey work, are people parking for work and who work in that area and it is generally full by 9.00 a.m. Obviously the question we put yesterday is your shifts start at 7.00 a.m.. So is that not likely to effectively mean that police people have first dibs at the space, as it were; first chance to take them?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Shifts start at different times, which is a bit confusing. I have had great difficulty getting this information. The information I have was obtained 5 minute before I got here. Yes, we have a variety of shifts. I have written down 7.00 p.m. to 5.00 a.m. but I think I have got that round the wrong way. I think it is 7.00 a.m. to 5.00 p.m. Some shifts are 2.00 p.m. to 10.00 p.m., some shifts are 9.00 p.m. to 7.00 a.m. and some extra shifts are 5.00 p.m. to 3.00 a.m.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Is that all uniformed people or is that everybody?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is the uniformed. As I say, that is a total of 105. So you are not dealing with huge numbers at any given stage it is a maximum of 2 times 21.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Only 21 of those are on duty are normally on duty at one time.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That would be Friday night and Saturday night.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So only 21 are normally on duty at one time, except at weekends et cetera when it is 42?
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes, for certain periods.
Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour :
What about C.I.D. (Criminal Investigation Department)? That is only uniformed?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is only uniformed. Now, as to the rest, I am told the majority worked an 8.00 a.m. to 4.00 p.m. pattern. Some work a 9.00 a.m. to 5.00 p.m. pattern and sometimes some will work a 2.00 p.m. to 10.00 p.m. pattern. This is the non-uniformed.
Connétable P.J. Rondel of St. John :
So crime, drugs and all the rest of it, does not happen after 10.00 p.m. at night then?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Well, they will obviously work at other times as and when it is necessary and particularly if you have got covert operations and so on. Things will fluctuate. The generality of the pattern is, as I say, you have the uniformed officer shifts and then the rest are working those sorts of hours but, of course, depending on where you are working, it is going to be flexible.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So we have got a range of coming and going times?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes. I think the key issue, if I may say so, from your perspective is going to be the numbers coming in, which I am told is the majority of the shift coming in for the 8.00 a.m. to 4.00 p.m.
Deputy J.H. Young:
It seems to be the principal impact but not the only one. That seems to be the point where there are 2 effects. One is, if there are no spaces where will people go?
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes. Well, I will tell you.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Yes, please. If you can tell us we would like to hear that.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
There are 2 issues here. I repeated my personal survey this morning of a car park that has been completely overlooked. I do not know what T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services) said to you but I think they have completely overlooked it. There is a car park within 400 yards of here which has quite a lot of empty spaces during the daytime. The first time I visited was about 11.45 a.m. in December. It had 46. Today I visited it at about 1.25 p.m. and I may have miscounted by one but I counted 51.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Are we talking Cleveland Road?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, Route du Fort, Cleveland Road. That has been overlooked, because that is a classic overnight car park. I have not been overnight to look at it but it is a classic overnight car park and you are going to find that during the daytime there are a lot of empty spaces. As I say, I have visited it. I know this is winter-time. I visited it once in December. I visited it once in January.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
That is what I was going to say.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I know it is winter-time but it is quite interesting that that has almost been completely overlooked.
Deputy J.H. Young:
It was mentioned in our discussion with T.T.S. and it does appear in the papers. I think the numbers we have been expecting to talk about, maximum availability daytime, is around 20. It does fluctuate. Particularly, as we know, it fills up rapidly at night because there is a shortage of
space there and night can be after people finish work. All of the on-street car-parking, we are told, including that, is full by 6.30 p.m. to 7.00 p.m.
The Minister for Home Affairs: At night, yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Also weekends, except during shopping hours.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes. I am embarrassed by the fact that I have written down 7.00 p.m. to 5.00 a.m., but I think that should be 7.00 a.m. to 5.00 a.m.
Deputy J.H. Young:
That ties in with what we were told.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Does that tie in?
Deputy J.H. Young: Yes, it does.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Okay. Then, I am sorry; I just wrote that down wrong in hurrying to get here.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Presumably you will not want police officers that do turn up by car having to go up to Pier Road to park.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
The ones that might have that vulnerability, in my view, would be the 9.00 a.m. starters, those non- uniformed that run a 9.00 a.m. to 5.00 p.m. shift, but I do not think the 8.00 a.m. to 4.00 p.m. would have that issue. I think what will happen is simply it is going to fill up more quickly.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Yesterday, the big picture we were told, Minister, was that the Minister for Transport and Technical Services felt that you are going to see police officers travel by bus, motorbike and bike as an alternative to cars and that we could rely on that.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Could I give you some figures on that: "Based on a travel survey within States of Jersey police, the transport assessment identified that a low number of States of Jersey police staff, about 39 per cent against a norm of 78 per cent in St. Helier , travel to work by car." So already we have a situation where the majority of officers do not ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
That was a survey, was it?
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young: Done when?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
My notes say: "Based on a travel survey within States of Jersey police." I have got a feeling that that was done within the work of the consultants. Is that Arup?
Deputy J.H. Young: Yes, the Arup report.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I could be wrong on that. The notes do not tell me that, but I have got a feeling it was.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Do you want to pick that up, Jeremy, or shall I carry on?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Sorry, can you just repeat that, Minister? I have got the Arup report here with me.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Well, I am reading out what my briefing notes tell me. This is a hypothetical question which I was expected to be asked: "What did the transport assessment say about the impact of the police?" So it is in that context. The answer is: "Based on a travel survey within States of Jersey police, the transport assessment identified that a low number of States of Jersey police staff, around 39 per cent against a norm of 78 per cent in St. Helier , travel to work by car." My notes then go on to say: "It is anticipated there will be a predicted amount of 65 cars." You have been told 75, so it is the
same range. The fact is that the present siting of the current police station is not very good in terms of staff access. In my own research, I happened to pace out the distance from the Patriotic Place car park, the exit where there is a tunnel. From standing where the last car is parked and walking down the tunnel and then turning right and walking up, I paced 750 paces to the entrance to the hall which lies just to the south of the school. So you can see that already, from the point of view of officers working there, they are sited in a very poor location.
Deputy J.H. Young:
But some have space in Roussel Street, do they not, at the back of the ambulance station?
[16:30]
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Well, my information, not from these notes but from previous meetings, is that there are a total of 20 spaces there on a first-come first-served basis and what I have been told is that if you get in early you may not get out later because it gets completely jammed up. So it is a very limited provision. The point I am trying to make is that if you think about that situation it is very poorly served by public car-parking. It is less than 750 if you are talking about Summerland, obviously. I did not pace that out. I paced out to the entrance to the school. You know what I mean by the school?
Deputy J.H. Young: Yes.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It is very poorly served because where else is there public car-parking?
Deputy J.H. Young:
So what you are saying is that the police are used to walking a fair way from the car park to work?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is my point, which is one of the reasons, I think, why you get such a large number going in by motorcycles and bikes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
What about officers in uniform? Do they walk in uniform or ...
The Minister for Home Affairs: I do not believe so.
Deputy J.H. Young:
What do they do, change when they get to the police station?
The Minister for Home Affairs: They have changing facilities there.
Deputy J.H. Young:
What will be the pattern of use in the new ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I would have thought the same. If there were changing facilities I would have thought officers are going to leave their uniforms at work. There are exceptions to that probably. I am not sure whether the Chief of Police runs in whether he is in uniform or not, but I suspect he does not.
Deputy J.H. Young:
I think he likes to walk around.
The Connétable St. John : Can I come in on that, Minister?
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
The Connétable St. John :
You are talking about motorcycles and cycling into work. The proposal is that there would be a cycle/motorcycle parking area for 38 motorcycles and X numbers of cycles across the road on the south side.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
The Connétable St. John :
Do you think, given that we have up to 1,100 vehicles an hour passing through the tunnel at peak, 2 bus stops without laybys, currently under the proposed plan, and the number of buses that will be using that per hour, which could be a minimum of 15 an hour, if each bus stops for half a minute or a minute for somebody to get on or off, that is 30 minutes in the hour which are lost or delaying the free flow of traffic on that road.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I have not seen yet, because the work has not been done in detail on it, the precise layout of the parking area and the access and so on.
The Connétable St. John : Can I just finish?
The Minister for Home Affairs: Sorry.
The Connétable St. John :
That means you have got a minimum of 15 but possibly 30 minutes of delay, plus you have got traffic lights at the end of the tunnel. Then you have got probably another set of traffic lights with pedestrian lights that will be put in place to cross from the south side to the north side opposite the police station to access your motorcycles or your cycles and probably another set of pedestrian lights that will have to be put in from the car park to the other side of the rights; so 3 sets of traffic lights plus buses. We have already got 1,100 vehicles an hour using that road at peak periods. Every time the single set of pedestrian lights now operate on peak hours there is a delay and you see the traffic back right up the tunnel, in fact past the old (?) office on peak hours. So once you have got 2 sets of traffic lights plus buses, which will be stopping at those 2 junctions, you are going to have a tailback of traffic right the way down to the area one way and right the way back up to the Esplanade on the other, depending on the time of day. Now, people have not given sufficient thought to the drawings that we have got here. The drawing is here showing this bus stop and this bus stop in the actual highway.
Deputy J.H. Young:
You have not seen those, Minister?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I am sorry. I am not sure I have seen that particular one.
Deputy J.H. Young:
We can pass one across.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Thank you very much.
The Connétable St. John :
You can see the bus stop on either side of the road, one and 2, and there are your cycles and your motorcycles and here is going to be a pedestrian way and you have got the same thing down at the tunnels and, therefore, we are going to have all sorts of backups and no thought has really been given to any of this. I must ask. Are we in a situation here that this particular site is a get out of jail card for the Minister for Treasury and Resources after the debacle at Lime Grove?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It is not from the point of view of the Minister for Home Affairs who, if anybody had a right to be cross with the Minister for Treasury and Resources, was that person in relation to that. No, it is not. It is one of peculiar coincidences, if I can put it that way, where, having lost what was viewed as being a perfectly viable option albeit one that would still leave us on 2 sites, a review then took place in relation to the possibilities and we then realised that, with the 30 per cent reduction in space that had been part of the review that took place in 2009, this was now potentially large enough. Now, my recollection is that there were 2 reasons why, before that, this site had been discounted. One of the reasons was because of the 30 per cent increase in space. I think they are sort of saying: "Well, it is just about big enough but we are still a bit concerned about future expansion," certainly from the police point of view. From my own point of view it is a perfectly acceptable size in terms of what we need. But the second reason seems to have been related to the fact that there were some plans at one stage to do something entirely different on this site. Now, I am a bit vague about this, I am afraid. I just cannot remember the detail. That was either a housing project or it was an extension of the car park, one or the other. But from my perspective, this is not a get out of jail free card for the Minister for Treasury and Resources. It is that when we started looking again we then came with an alternative which, just by incredible coincidence, happened to be next door.
The Connétable St. John :
Does the police headquarters need to be in the centre of town, given that the States own properly all around the Island, and should a police station be in town but not necessarily a police headquarters?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
The pattern of the direction in which things have been moving generally in the U.K. (United Kingdom) has been towards trying to locate your police stations near to the centre of town.
The Connétable St. John : Near.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
There was a time when there were grandiose plans for putting these things out in the sticks, but that has moved back. I have to say it does need to be within certain parameters. It needs to have reasonable access obviously on to main roads for traffic reasons and so on, but it also needs to be reasonably central and this site, in my opinion, is better than the existing site, again, for the reason it is more central. It is easier for people to get access to it.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Can I just interject there very quickly? Minister, would you also acknowledge that in the U.K. there is a difference between police H.Q. (headquarters) and police stations and their location can be different? In other words, the station might need to be located more towards the town centre but the police H.Q. may not be.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, but there are operational advantages of having 2 together. It has never been essential to have the 2 together, hence why I was willing to agree to the previous plan. It has never been essential, but there are definite operational advantages in terms of having your people in one place. I run different organisations at the time which have had multiple ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
Could I just follow up from that, Minister, for the sake of clarity? We have heard all sorts of talk about other bits of your operation being elsewhere. Is this project going to put everybody within the police force within the one place? Will we end up with any separate units sited elsewhere?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Not in terms of staffing, but you will end up with a separate storage facility for large vehicles and you will end up with a specialist unit at a location which I cannot disclose, which is there for taking videoed evidence of children or vulnerable adults but you do need that separately and would always need that.
The Connétable St. John :
What about the Joint Financial Crimes Unit? Is that still in existence and, if so, will that be at police headquarters?
The Minister for Home Affairs: It has never been joint.
The Connétable St. John : Customs and C.I.D.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes. It has never really been joint.
The Connétable St. John :
It was called the Joint Financial Crimes Unit under my time there.[1]
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It was called that but it never had a joint existence. It always was people in 2 different units, 2 different places. Indeed that has been recognised recently by changes of name. It would be better to call it the joint units because it was also 2 units.
The Connétable St. John :
Will they be in that building or will they be elsewhere?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
The police will be in that building, but Customs will be, as they are at the moment ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
So there will need to be interaction between them.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes, but they are separate.
Deputy J.H. Young:
What about heavy vehicles and so on? I would like to talk about operational vehicles. You are going to have operational vehicles within the unit, are you not?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Again, I have information on that. Sorry, I have not answered the Connétable 's question.
The Connétable St. John : Correct.
Deputy J.H. Young:
I will yield to the Connétable .
The Connétable St. John :
I go back to Home Affairs when we did have a Joint Financial Crimes Unit, back to the turn of the century.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It was called that but it was never co-located.
The Connétable St. John :
But they were working together at Summerland.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
They do still work together in exchanging information.
The Connétable St. John :
But this was on the same offices in 2002 to 2004.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Well, I cannot go back that but certainly what I have inherited has been working apart. It was my understanding that, although they had that name, they effectively had 2 different offices.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Can I pull us back? We are trying to explore the pattern of use of this building. We have talked about the officers and the shifts and so on. I would like to explore vehicles if we can. Will the accommodation provide for all operational vehicles to be housed within that building?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, not the larger ones. I have got some notes on that here somewhere. I have got a feeling that may be on a separate piece of paper, because there were some separate questions. Here it is on a second piece of paper. I knew I had read it: "Large vehicle storage access. The plan provides for garaging for up to 5 over-sized vehicles: command vehicle, large P.S.V. (public service vehicle)." I am not sure what that is.
The Connétable St. John : Public service vehicle.
Deputy J.H. Young: Lorries.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I thought it might be, but it did not make sense.
Deputy J.H. Young:
I did not realise you had any lorries, Minister.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I did not know I had a public service vehicle: "emergency equipment van." Hang on: "The plan provides for garaging for up to 5 ... at a States-owned unit at La Collette. Also has archiving and off-site storage. The unit provides access for vehicles to be deployed from there when required." So, from that, all other vehicles other than those would be there.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Just exploring these high vehicles, will the mountain come to Mohammed as it were? When they are needed will they go to the police headquarters to pick up whatever people they need to pick up, operatives?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes. Obviously the big vehicle that enters is the police van and the whole building has been designed with a special entrance so that they can come in one way and go around into a secure area, just as at the Magistrate's Court, drop people off and come out the other way.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So these big vehicles will be able to access that part of the site?
The Minister for Home Affairs: I do not know.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Our information was there were 2 entrances, one for operational vehicles and the other one for the secure unit, and then this question of what happens to the over-sized vehicles that are not
accommodated within the building has come up. So if you can perhaps come back to us about that.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Okay. Certainly the vans are ...
The Connétable St. John :
It is on the plan in front of you, I think.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, I know. That is what I was describing, but I do not know how large these other vehicles are. If they are no larger than the transport vehicle then obviously they can get in and out.
Deputy J.H. Young:
It is all to do with turning circles and visibility and access and so on, I should think, as well.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, but this is why there is a specific design for the large vehicle going through. I am not quite sure why you would want to have your command vehicle there. The command vehicle is a vehicle that normally goes out to a site and acts as a command centre.
[16:45]
Deputy J.H. Young:
Right, so they will not come there. That is fine.
The Connétable St. John :
Will they be able to load and offload prisoners in the secure area?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, absolutely. If that is the question, yes. I am sorry if I was unclear about that.
Deputy J.H. Young: No, my question was ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I thought you were asking me could all the vehicles ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
I was and so I think the Constable has refined the question, making it a rather better one, and you have just answered it.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think, frankly, some of them would not need to go into the building.
The Connétable St. John :
The prison van is the important one.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
There is a specific prison van entrance and exit.
Deputy J.H. Young:
But all the other operational vehicles that are ordinary sized will have to go in and out of that site at some time.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes and that is what the basement is ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
What about police officers that go on duty that have to use police vehicles? Presumably they will come in and park and then go into police headquarters and take the operational vehicle out and bring it back at the end of the shift and so on?
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So there will be comings and goings, as it were, of police operational vehicles?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, the normal sort of comings and goings. One of the points I wanted to make, because there has been a huge amount of misinformation about this and I made this point to Jeremy's group. There is just huge misinformation about the way the police operate to blue light incidents, well- meaning people writing totally misguided letters to the J.E.P (Jersey Evening Post) about what happens if it is blocked. But the fact is the vast majority of blue light incidents are dealt with by vehicles which are already out and about. The estimate we have got from the police is that you
get in the order of 100 a year, no more than 2 a week, where you would have them leaving police headquarters. That is the nature of the shift pattern. You put your vehicles out, they are out and about; they will respond from there, because likely they are going to be closer to the incident.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Could I ask you to comment on another thing that is commonly said? Obviously the tunnel is a very peak part of the traffic network and that when we have incidents, traffic hold-ups, the tunnel gets blocked on occasions.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
There are those that say therefore this means access through the tunnel, particularly to the west, is likely to be problematic at certain times for those operational vehicles and obviously no access north means through Grenville Street and so on, La Motte Street. Have you a comment to make on the effect ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I just made a comment about blue lights, 100 a year, but you have got the same problem the other way round. I mean, most of the times it depends where the vehicles are and where they need to go to, because they are not going to be just sitting there. They are going to be out and about. But if you have got a blockage, shall we say, in the tunnel that can equally cause a difficulty for a vehicle which is currently out to the west which needs to go to the east. So we do not think it is material. The other factor is of course that if you cannot go through the tunnel and you wanted to go from the east to the west, then you have got a number of different routes. You can go over Mount Bingham, you can go down Snow Hill or you can go all the way round the ring road. But you have got the same issue, as I say, the other way round now going from the west to the east.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So you say they balance out, in effect?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is the police view. I am reflecting that is the police view. The misunderstanding has been the assumption that these calls would start off from police headquarters. That has come, I think, out of the 2 other organisations which are based in Rouge Bouillon, which do a lot of blue light things starting there, one of which is the Ambulance Service and another one is the Fire Service. People hear things, see vehicles with blue and assume they are police vehicles. They are not. That has been a complete misunderstanding.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Can I move on to disabled access to the building? The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Can you give me a guarantee that the entire building is 100 per cent disabled access, because you may have people you are interviewing that need to be detained, therefore if they are detained, depending on the suite they are in, that there is proper facilities; likewise, if people are working in there who are disabled, they have access to 100 per cent of the building.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is the intention but, just understand, at this point we have not done that degree of work. I mean, one of the difficulties and frustrations that my team have experienced, and the parallel team, is that we are being asked to produce answers to problems which we have not yet solved. But the fact is you do not do that level of work at the stage we have got to. I think on one occasion I was at a meeting where the Deputy Chief Officer explained that there were something like 11 or 12 stages in relation to a process like this, and we were currently at stage 5.
Deputy J.H. Young:
But you are in for planning, Minister.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Sorry?
Deputy J.H. Young:
You are in for planning consent at the moment. There is a planning application in.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, that is right, but we do not have detailed internal layouts at this point.
The Connétable of St. John :
Yes, but there is external layouts that you must have allowed for, because you have allowed for 3 so-called disabled and other use bays outside.
The Minister for Home Affairs: That is correct, yes.
The Connétable of St. John :
Now, 3 is not very many. If somebody is disabled, it takes 2 or 3 times as long to leave that vehicle, and if it is left there and one of your delivery vehicles comes along and parks on the other 2, therefore is that sufficient, because I do not believe it is and the location appears to be wrong.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
We do not have another location, of course, within this plan. What we have effectively done is created a layby the length of the building, but that is constrained on the one hand by the entranceway and on the other hand by the exit way. I would be absolutely amazed if you have more than 3 disabled vehicles. The fact is that, again, if we are looking at volumes - I do not have those figures in front of me, I am afraid, but I have a distinct memory, and Jeremy will recall this as well - we have figures which show the numbers of people who visit the police headquarters, and then we had comparisons with the numbers who visited, shall we say, Social Security, which has absolutely no parking, absolutely no disabled access whatsoever. We had 10 times as many visitors to Social Security as we had to this building. So what I am saying is there are virtually no other public buildings other than those which have got large car parks nearby which are going to have disabled facilities as close. We must judge according to ...
The Connétable of St. John :
We are talking about a brand-new site with a brand-new States building.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
The Connétable of St. John :
Historically the States are very good at all the plush bits and pieces, but when it comes to the working areas where we may have disabled people working for us, we may have disabled people that have to be interviewed, detained et cetera, will you give us an undertaking that we will have 100 per cent access to disabled people who have to enter that building, whether for work or to be interviewed or whatever, but give us an undertaking that you work to aspire for 100 per cent accessibility for all?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Well, that is the intention. That is definitely the intention, yes.
The Connétable of St. John :
Your intention, as the Minister promoting this?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes. I mean, it is a modern building. I would expect there to be accessibility for disabled people to all areas to which the public or the appropriate person had access.
The Connétable of St. John :
You would not know about the appropriate person until you employ them, because the States have a policy of employing X number of people who are disabled in different spheres within their departments, so that person must have access to the same areas as an able-bodied person.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
The Connétable of St. John : So whether it is ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I mean, my understanding is that we have lift access to all floors and therefore that is going to give that, but again, the final designs have not been approved at this stage. But that is certainly the intention; it certainly would be an important issue.
Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin :
Minister, I would just like to get back to travel. In the Island Plan under policy TT 9, it says that buildings or developments of this size will be required to submit a travel plan, and I just wondered whether your department or Property Holdings had done that.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, that is the next stage. That is the next stage.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Will the Minister for the Environment not have to consider the travel plan in the application?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
He will require us to have one as a condition, but that level of work you would not do at this stage. That is the next stage.
The Deputy of St. Martin : Minister, that is not ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I mean, it is a task we have always said we need to do, but we just do not do it at this stage.
The Deputy of St. Martin : Minister, I am sorry ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
We are being asked to produce a level of detail, because of the States proposition, here and now which would never, ever be produced at this point.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
I think I am correct in saying that the Minister for Environment was before us earlier today, who said - and we do not have the transcripts back yet, obviously - but my understanding was that he would want to see a travel plan before he decided on the application.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
In that case, he needs to tell us that.
Deputy J.H. Young:
I think it did come out of that session that he is ... and I think it is mandated by the Island Plan, that says: "The weight to be given to a travel plan in a planning decision will be influenced by the extent to which it materially affects the acceptability of the development proposed." There is no question in this case, from what we have been told already, that this development depends on a travel plan, because the travel plan will achieve the modal shift required by T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services).
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
One of the elements of the Minister for Planning's job in the planning policy is to evaluate the weight to be given to a travel plan based on its enforceability, so I certainly would like to hear from you, not only what is in the plan, but what measures are proposed to enforce it, which I think is ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
We have not done the plan at this stage. I cannot tell you more than that. The Deputy Chief Officer has numerous times said that.
The Connétable of St. John :
So therefore you would expect to have this rejected, because that is part and parcel of the planning process?
Deputy J.H. Young:
The Minister told us that he would ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
If Planning come back to us and say: "Look, you have not given us enough information. You need to produce the travel plan at this stage" then clearly that is what we will do.
Deputy J.H. Young:
I think it is what came out of our earlier session. He said to us that he would not deal with the application without the ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I have to say, his officers should have told us that. I am not dealing with the detail of that, obviously ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
But that is in the Island Plan, Minister.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
... because they are dealt with by Property Holdings, but if that is a requirement at this stage, we need to be told that.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Also, I think I ought to refer to the answer we had from the Minister for Transport and Technical Services when we spoke about the travel plan, where he said that we have received a first draft and asked for some further work.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Okay.
Deputy J.H. Young:
But there is not a first draft.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Sorry?
Deputy J.H. Young:
There is not a first draft of the plan.
The Minister for Home Affairs: I do not know.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Perhaps you could find out, Minister.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I simply do not know that. What I have been told thus far is that that is a piece of work which will be done at a later stage.
Deputy J.H. Young:
We note your answer, Minister, thank you, but certainly there is an inconsistency there, there is no question of that. We will have to follow it up.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
As I say, if that is the situation, then we should be told that and then we will produce that as part of the application.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Yes. Maybe just assume there is one. What sort of things would you expect to see in it?
The Minister for Home Affairs: Okay, I have got some notes on that.
The Connétable of St. John :
Do you not think you should have brought your officer with you, Minister, to answer some of these questions?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I did. I did, because I have got his notes.
The Connétable of St. John :
So he knows as much as you do, Minister.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Let us have a look. Travel plan, okay, here we are. This is the anticipated question, okay: "Travel plan requirements to encourage staff to use alternative transport, buses, motorbikes, cycles et cetera. What elements might be in there, how might they work, would they be enforceable? Any incentives or disincentives considered. Are the aims ..." I do not even know what that means, but anyway: "for modal shift realistic?"
Deputy J.H. Young:
Modal shift is the jargon in transport world for people not coming by car or going on the bus.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Change of behaviour.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Okay. Right, here is the answer given to that question: "As identified from the transport assessment, States of Jersey Police already has a lower number of car users and higher number of cycle and motorcycle users than most other organisations. The development and maintenance of a workplace travel plan will be a requirement under any planning permit for the scheme." That was our understanding, hence the answers I have been giving you.
The Connétable of St. John :
Who wrote the answers for you, Minister?
The Deputy of St. Martin :
It is not important, is it, who has written the answer?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I am getting confused, because what happened was we seem to have an email from the Scrutiny Officer anticipating questions and then somebody has provided it. I mean, the email to me comes from the Assistant Director, Property Holdings, who is the ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
Is he the project manager from Property Holdings?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
The project manager, yes. This is an email from the Assistant Director, Property Holdings addressed to me with copies to various different people. So what has happened, he has put in blue answers, he has got the questions in black. I have got the answers in blue. Right, so it is the Assistant Director, Property Holdings.
The Connétable of St. John :
So it is rather difficult, because this is all being taped and we really need to be able to put questions to the person who is knowledgeable within your department for this.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
He is not in my department. I had to decide whether to bring the Deputy Chief Officer of the States of Jersey Police in or not today, and perhaps I should have done. But the Assistant Director, Property Holdings is not in my department. Are you taking evidence separately from ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
That is an interesting point. I think we may have to, Minister, in view of what you have said, because ...
[17:00]
The Minister for Home Affairs: Property ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
Can I just clarify what the working arrangement is? You are the occupier of this building and you are the client, effectively?
The Minister for Home Affairs: We are the client, yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
So is the role of Property Holdings in this not as providing a service for you as a client in ensuring this project runs successfully through?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, I would say that is right. Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Would not a project running successfully through mean providing the proper information in terms of the elements required in a planning process?
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Young: Okay, thank you.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Which is why I read out the answer ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
Would you mind repeating it? I did not quite catch it.
The Minister for Home Affairs: ... which horrified you, but ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
So the answer is that it is part of the planning process?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Can I read that out again, because you will see I gave you the answer I gave you because this is what the Assistant Director, Property Holdings has told me, obviously.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Yes, I am sorry, if you could. I missed it, I am sorry.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Right, I will read it out: "Development and maintenance of workplace travel plan will be a requirement under any planning permit of the scheme and secured through a planning condition." So you will see why I have been told this is some piece of work we do later. We get a planning permit, subject to a satisfactory ... or a planning indication - it may not be a full permit - subject to a satisfactory workplace travel plan, and there we do the work subsequently.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
So that is very clear that it is something that comes subsequent to the acceptance or the approval of the application.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes. That may be wrong, but you understand what I have been told ...
Deputy J.H. Young:
Thank you for your answer. Yes, thank you.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
... and why I have come to this understanding. Where did I get to? "Developing a workplace travel plan is a serious undertaking and is designed to encourage staff and others visiting an organisation to use environmentally friendly alternatives to driving alone, at least for some of their journeys. It will contain a mix of incentives and disincentives, e.g. car-sharing, promoting more use of public transport, encouraging walking and cycling, restricting on-site parking [that apparently is one of the disincentives] and supporting alternative work practices which reduce the need for travel." It must be a misprint. I think that should be: "The new location will itself encourage changes to travel behaviour, supported by issues such as it is better served by public transport, being closer [good grief, there are about 3 typos in the same line, that is why I am hesitating] to the town centre. The workplace travel plan will rely [it should be on'] incentives and disincentives. It will not be strictly enforceable, although management policies could be used in some areas and the improved facilities provided in the building, showers et cetera should assist."
Deputy J.H. Young:
Minister, could you possibly provide us with a copy of that, because we will then, I think, have to ask Property Holdings to come along and talk to us to explain the advice they have given you.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes. Could I just check there are no naughties in here?
Deputy J.H. Young: Oh yes, of course.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I do not think there are, because we were given prior notice of possible areas of questioning, which was incredibly helpful, if I may say so, being able to have this level of detail.
The Connétable of St. John :
Minister, you have acknowledged that you are only going to be a tenant of the site. We will need to speak, I believe, Chairman, to the owners of the site, i.e. through Property Holdings.
Deputy J.H. Young: Yes, I think so.
The Connétable of St. John :
Because we need to put some technical questions to them and obviously you are only reading out what you have been given, and given this is all being transcribed, we need to be able to have it, shall we say, from the horse's mouth.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I do agree with you, because you are asking me questions which probably should be put to them. It just so happens they have given me a brief.
Deputy J.H. Young:
I wonder if I could before we close, because obviously we do not want to prolong this unnecessarily, if you do not have the answers and we need to put them to Property Holdings, please say.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I do not know if I do or do not have. You have to ask me first.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Can you tell us, we heard from the Minister for Treasury that Property Holdings have got a site providing 40 spaces for police officers to park. Do you know about that and could you confirm it?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I do. Part of one of my briefs says that the Minister for T.T.S may have been a bit too bullish about that. The current situation there is that there is an owner not very far away who has approached, indicating that he would be willing to let a site which has 40 spaces for use by police officers. It is confidential as to where it is, I do not know exactly where it is, but the person wanted it be kept confidential. It is one of the factors that we are looking at.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Who would pay? Property Holdings would pay for that?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think officers would pay for it. Again, I think having read the transcript of what was said by the Police Association, they are indicating a willingness to pay for such parking. They obviously are interested in having that availability, but I cannot tell you where it is. I know roughly where it is, but I am asked not to.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
If I can ask one question which is related, and it has been raised by my colleagues previously, it is to do with security, to do with the security of the proposed police bikes in front of the police station in case of some sort of damage or vandalism. I wonder if you could just explain the arrangements that will be made regarding that issue?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Well, I think it is in front of where the reception area is, so I think that is it.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
I do believe the reception area is now going to be closed at night. I presume that pattern will follow to the new police station.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, that is correct, yes, yes. The intention is, because of the low numbers of visitors that we have overnight, that there would not always be an officer there. What is the difference if it is in a public car park?
The Connétable of St. John :
Can I say on that point, in a public car park you would not identify generally, but given that there is 40-odd motorcycles and X number of bikes opposite police headquarters, of which it specifically says so in the various reports that basically 90 per cent or thereabouts could be used by the States Police, the younger element of our community - and maybe some of the older ones - who have got a grudge might go along and vandalise things late at night or whenever it is ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, but you are only going to have a relatively small number of officers around late at night, for the reasons I have said. You are going to be looking at your one shift or your 2 shifts at times over the weekend, plus any officers who are working late. It is a different scenario to the scenario of the vast majority of the 220 during normal working hours. So you may well find that if officers are concerned to that issue that they will not use it.
The Connétable of St. John :
On another issue, when they are using it between 7.00 a.m. in the morning and 10.00 p.m. at night or whatever, whatever shift they are on during that period in the daytime, and 40 motorcycles at different times when you start them up right next door to the nursing home, are you not concerned that it is going to create a problem for your neighbours?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Again, I anticipate the vast majority are going to be in the daytime, for the reasons I have said.
The Connétable of St. John : But it is a nursing home.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is when the numbers are there, you see? I mean, at the very most you have got 2 shifts at the very busy times, plus you have got any other officers who might be working late. I would have thought you are coming up with a fairly good reason to encourage those who are going to be working late not to use it.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Presumably it also means, Minister, if I can just briefly interrupt, that you are saying that a large amount of time that space will be empty, because there will not be any motorbikes there, because people will not be working on shifts.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It is going to be a choice for officers, but if officers are concerned ... I think the point you have raised is a very good point in relation to the proximity of the Limes.
Deputy J.H. Young:
It also raises a question of whether we should be giving up a bus bay which is 24 hours for part- time motorcycle parking that nobody might want to park there.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think in the daytime when you have got the 220, you have certainly got a major difference there, but what I am suggesting is that when you are outside of the normal structure of hours, your numbers are going to go right, right down.
Deputy J.H. Young:
But you would not be averse to reallocating and relaying those spaces out somewhere else in order to alleviate the traffic pressures in ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think that is a very good site for them to be, because otherwise you are going to have to put them into Green Street and you are then going to get a reduction of space availability there, because you are going to have to increase your motorcycle ... all this is a trade-off. I mean, the policemen want to be as close as possible to their workplace and even though, as I said, at the moment they have really quite unsatisfactory arrangements in terms of distances they have to go, and then there is a trade-off against the public. So when Jeremy's Scrutiny Panel was talking about having more dedicated spaces in Green Street, but that then runs contrary to the public need, so you cannot do both.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Okay, I think you have made your point.
The Connétable of St. John :
So the Chief Officer's car and his parking, is that going to be on-site or off-site?
The Minister for Home Affairs: He does not have one.
The Connétable of St. John :
You have got a Chief Officer's police car in the garage currently.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
He does not have this. I mean, there is a staff car.
The Connétable of St. John : A staff car?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
There is a staff car, but this present police officer runs to work.
The Connétable of St. John :
Currently this particular officer may, but officers in the future may not all run into work, depending how fit they are and their attitude to life. Historically we have seen police officers have parking or have their own Chief Officer's parking space et cetera. Is that going to still happen on the site, given the restriction on the amount of parking space that is available?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I hope not, but I cannot say. I mean, obviously it is going to be an ongoing management decision.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Jeremy, and then we are running out of time. Yes, so if we make this the last ...
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Thank you, Minister. It is something which we have been told before, because it is has come up with the Minister for Planning. I just want to confirm this, if you can. It is talking about the police H.Q. (headquarters) as proposed being in line with Home Office guidance, and what we heard previously in Scrutiny is that no matter what is proposed, there will never be a 100 per cent fit, there will always be some wiggle room in that some guidelines may not be met. It is a judgment about how well whatever fits into whatever proposed site at the time, and I am just wondering if you can confirm that within this police H.Q. that is a similar situation, in that it does not comply completely 100 per cent with the Home Office guidelines.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I am not aware of ways in which it does not comply with the guidelines. Certainly from the meetings I have been at with your Scrutiny Panel and with the architects, we have always been told it does comply. In fact, one of the ironies is the fact that the guidelines have been changed in relation to the light tubes in the light of this. That is what I have been told. I mean, the fact is the plans are massively changing in relation to this. One of the very interesting things is that I have been told of police stations which have been designed in the U.K. (United Kingdom) where in fact the number of officers available is much lower, the amount of space is much lower as a percentage, because the operational patterns are changing. They are now sending officers out and wanting them to work on their computers and their laptops in a mobile way and not come back in. So we are still designing a building on a fairly traditional model in terms of numbers of spaces, and in many other places, they are reducing the amount of space.
The Connétable of St. John : That could be a worry then. The Minister for Home Affairs: Sorry?
The Connétable of St. John :
That could be a worry if we are building a building today at last year's specifications when we need one at next year's specifications.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Well, next year's specification would be less, not more.
The Connétable of St. John :
That is what I am saying. It is a worry that we do not have the up-to-date, if you are telling us they are doing work differently.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It is currently up-to-date, but what I am saying is that trends are changing, and this is one of the points that I tried to make to Deputy Maçon's Scrutiny Panel, who were concerned about future growth and whether we have got enough capacity, but the way in which the nature of design of a police station is going is towards less capacity per person. But we can only design in accordance with our current reasonable operational needs.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Thank you, Minister, for that. I think we are an hour now, we have had an hour's session on it. I think we should draw matters to a close. Colleagues, have you any other matters? I thank the Minister for coming in to see us and coping with our questions. We will see Property Holdings, I think.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, can I just make a general point before we close? One of the things I am baffled by is that it has been said there is not accessibility, there is not enough parking for staff et cetera et cetera, and yet this is a much better option in terms of siting than existing siting which, as I have said to you, is a long way away from public parking.
[17:15]
This is in the middle of 3 public ... Deputy J.H. Young:
No, but I think the point that came out, the starting point, is in the Island Plan and in the original site selection review that we read and the documents we have seen, it says that the Green Street open area is a major area of public commuter car-parking and therefore its use for alternative uses is likely to be quite critical, but the criticality depends on the extent to which all the things we have discussed, sustainable transport, travel plans et cetera can become a reality, and that is the area we are spend our time on and we have to write the report. So it was always an issue, because it is losing spaces which are there for another use, where of course viewed in the round from the police point of view, that is not a consideration. But obviously if you join all the elements up, as you say, there are pluses and minuses in this, and that is what we have got to try and draw together.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think that is right. I mean, obviously we have got people looking at bits. When we come to the debate, people are going to have to throw into the pot the counter-issues. The fact is, are we going to be able to proceed with a major capital programme at a time when we are desperate for building work? Are we going to be able to proceed with the housing plan on another site at a time when we are desperate for that? Everything has pros and cons.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Well, that is a debate for the States.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think we are looking at isolated areas, and that is quite right and that is quite your role. When we come to the debate, we are going to have to look at the big picture.
Deputy J.H. Young:
Yes, I accept that, but I think what we tried to do is put in place the missing component, which is the factual information on these subjects that we have set out to do, and I think we have clearly got some points to follow up with Property Holdings as a result of that discussion with you.
The Connétable of St. John :
I have got real concerns, I will tell you, Minister. I have said all along that I think this should not be in the town. Police stations in town, police headquarters outside of town, and we have plenty of property that we own that this could happen on, even Haut de la Garenne.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
You are absolutely in a minority there, if I may say.
Deputy J.H. Young:
I think I am going to intervene and close the meeting so you can have your chat privately elsewhere. Thank you very much.
[17:17]