Passports (False Statements and Forgery) - Minister for Home Affairs - Transcript - 24 March 2014

Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Passports (False Statements and Forgery) (Jersey) Law

MONDAY, 24th MARCH 2014

Panel:

Constable S.W. Pallett of St. Brelade (Chairman) Constable M.P.S. Le Troquer of St. Martin Constable S.A. Rennard of St. Saviour

Witnesses:

The Minister for Home Affairs

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration

[12:24]

Connétable S.W. Pallet of St. Brelade (Chairman):

This is a hearing in regards to the draft Passports (False Statements and Forgery) (Jersey) Law 201-, hopefully 2014. Just for the benefit of the tape if we go around and give our names. I am Constable Steve Pallett, Chairman of the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel.

Connétable M.P.S. Le Troquer of St. Martin : Michel Le Troquer, Constable of St. Martin .

Connétable S.A. Rennard of St. Saviour : Constable Sadie Rennard of St. Saviour .

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Ian Le Marquand, Minister for Home Affairs.

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration: Steven Le Marquand, Director with Custom and Immigration Service.

Mr. M. Robbins (Scrutiny Officer) Mick Robbins, Scrutiny Officer.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

What I am going to do, I am going to hand over to my Vice-Chair to lead on this because I am running out of steam.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

I will go as quickly as I can. Obviously the legislation is nowhere near as long as what we have just covered. We could start by just asking, what is the extent of the current problem? I know we are dealing with common law at the moment but is there a problem? Why the need for the legislation.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

There is a gap and Guernsey filled this gap 40 years ago, not that that is any good reason to follow them but there is a gap because we are left at the moment with common law offences which would be, say, forgery, a forged document with the potential of obtaining a tangible item using that. You could, I think, be charged also with obtaining a passport by false pretences as well. So the gap is not necessarily as wide as we might think but it was identified - and Steve can probably tell you more about it - some years ago ...

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration:

It was identified in 1994 and there was a case where someone made a false application for a passport and in the particular case the Attorney General at the time decided not to go ahead with the prosecution but in his summing up he recommended that it would be a good idea that when opportunity arose to introduce a law similar to the Guernsey legislation. He did not see it as a matter of priority but he said when the opportunity arises it would be a good idea to look at it.

The Connétable of St. Martin : It has arisen now because of?

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration:

No, what has happened I think over the years, for whatever reason, nothing was done. When I came into post 2 years ago I came across some cases where people had made false signatures in applying for a passport. I looked to see what procedures there were or what legislation was in place for us to prosecute on this and that is when I came across all this information. I think it was just over a period of time ... presumably my predecessor thought this was not a priority. I saw it and I just thought: "This just seems crazy that we have got people committing offences like this and we are not actually taking any course of action." What we did do is that obviously customs and immigration officers had no powers at all to do anything so it had to be done under fraud and so those had to be passed on to States of Jersey Police. The States of Jersey Police were very busy and it was not always high priority.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Just very quickly, assuming it would have been previously fraud, uttering and maybe false pretence on the application forms for passports?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, I think the sort of case that Steve's referring to would have been where somebody made a false statement and the Attorney General decided there was not sufficient basis to charge with attempting to obtain by false pretences. It is absolutely standard practice whenever you create an application making power, there may be exceptions in the Explosives Law, to create a set of offences which run alongside. Now, what has happened here is because the statutory basis for giving of passports is not contained in Jersey legislation, it is contained in the U.K. (United Kingdom) legislation, which is then extended by a General Order of Council which is applied to some way to Jersey. There has never been a process of creating a proper system of applying under Jersey law which then would have had penalties and so on. So that is why there is a gap. General practice in modern times has been to create statutory offences for this and not to rely upon the common law.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

You could say that for the Theft Act or common law larceny, we are still waiting for that.

[12:30]

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Please do not start talking to this Minister about the Theft Act.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Have there been any prosecutions? Nothing at all?

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration: Certainly not in recent years.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Is that because there is no legislation to cover it?

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration: We encounter it 2 or 3 times a year.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

What, people putting false information?

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration: False signatures ...

The Connétable of St. Martin : Applications?

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration: Yes.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

If they are resident in the Island it is desirable that there is prosecution if there is a false situation. You could understand where people come in, shall we say, with a forged passport from outside the Island, the action should be made not particularly to want to charge them and imprison them.

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration: They will be sent back.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Because they get sent back, the action is to want to get rid of them.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

What is the nature of the false information that they are giving?

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration:

False signatures, you know, a parent will bring a ... or a friend will bring a passport application in, it is them that has signed it as opposed to the applicant and so that is the ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade : It is pretty straightforward stuff.

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration:

It is very straightforward. It is exactly the same as the actual passport photo, the applicant will sign it in saying that it is true, a civil servant or whatever.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Because they just cannot be bothered to go through the process?

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration: Correct, they will just forge their signature.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Did the U.K. authorities push for any change or was it just yourself?

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration: It is us.

The Connétable of St. Martin : You have initiated it?

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration:

The U.K. have got an offence ... they have got that under the Criminal Offences Act ... the Criminal Justice Act 1925.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

I looked at the Guernsey one over the weekend, I downloaded the Guernsey one, it was quite short, very basic piece of legislation.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Can I say that when this matter went to the law officers, it is my understanding from Steve the law officers said if you are going to do this we could put in some additional things at the same time. That is why I got confused when I had a meeting with the Chairman, informal meeting with the Chairman to brief him on things, I was under the impression it was the law officers who initiated the process but in fact it was the law officers who were assisting us in broadening its terms.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

In terms of Articles 4 to 9 they are not included in the Guernsey legislation, presumably it is in the U.K. legislation and you have taken an opportunity to include that within the law?

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration:

The Act part referred to ... that particular Act does not talk about executing warrants or anything like that but that will be covered in other ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Other legislation. But you put it into this specific piece of legislation?

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration:

Yes, again, we got advice from the law draftsmen that was the appropriate way to do it.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Just going through the Articles, because I know time goes quick, did you think it worth putting the definition and the interpretation of uttering?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I am quite relaxed on this one either way. Uttering is a well known term to lawyers, it is a term used in the Guernsey legislation, it is using a forged document for a purpose. If you tried to put in a definition for using, you have to think carefully about what you say because you want it to mirror uttering and you might accidentally either make it wider or narrower. From a point of view of strict law, uttering is the correct term. From the point of view of the ability of public to understand that which they are not allowed to do, it might be desirable to put in a definition of using. But we went with Guernsey and presumably with the U.K.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

What I picked, again on Article 1, we have got an officer, immigration officer or police officer, police officer means a member of the States of Jersey Police Force.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

That is a confession, I completely missed that. It should not be there.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Is that your confession, is it?

The Minister for Home Affairs: That is my confession.

The Connétable of St. Martin : What should not be there?

The Connétable of St. Saviour : What should not?  

The Minister for Home Affairs:

The definition of police officer, because ... I cannot remember for certain exactly what I did but when I looked at this, if I see a term like officer I will go to see what officer means, if I see officer means immigration or police officer I know under the Interpretation (Jersey) Law that police officer is States of Jersey or Honorary. I will not then go on and look for a definition of police officer, I do not expect there to be one but it is a defined term under the interpretation law. I have now discovered to my embarrassment it is has been defined and this is wrong because there it needs to come out. So we simply take out that. The reason it is wrong is because for virtually all other purposes I know honorary police officers are recognised with police officers. So why would we want to, in relation to this specific legislation, say that they are not. If politically there is a point at which we want to say that honorary police officers are not police officers for all purposes, that is a highly political decision, and certainly not one that I want to make. It is simply a mistake and I missed it for the reason I said. I assume that is reason because I obviously did not read through with sufficient care the definition section.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

It is something that I think would come up as a question. Again, in the interpretations, senior officer in your department, would it not be as well ... because you have it defined later on ...

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration: Yes, chief immigration officer.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Yes, would it not be just as well to put it in the interpretation so it is clear rather than have to look for it in the legislation?

The Minister for Home Affairs: Sorry, I thought it was defined.

The Connétable of St. Martin : It is defined but not in Article 1.

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration:

But they are saying put it in the interpretation as opposed to hidden somewhere in another Article.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Yes, I did not think it was there and I found it later.

The Minister for Home Affairs: I see, sorry.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

It is just easier to read but maybe there might be a reason for it.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Is the term "senior officer" used anywhere else in the document?

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration:

I think where it is talking about going into premises without a warrant, a senior officer has to give approval for that to happen.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, but is this the only Article in which the term "senior officer" is used? In that case it would be better to have that definition ...

The Connétable of St. Martin :

In that Article, rather than Article 1, I do not know. I always like to see it in the interpretation, you can read everything and it is all in one go and you know you are referring to it. It may be one you want to consider and discuss.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I am perfectly happy to move senior officer into the ... from there into the interpretation. We can just put it there. I have to say that I think it should be in the general definition because normally you would only put it in the Article when you wanted to have a specific meaning for the purpose of that Article only. So I am quite happy about that.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Thank you. Article 2, and this is the crux of the whole thing, the way I read it and I may be ... because I know there was a little bit of concern among some of my colleagues earlier on, the offence is the person applying ... or the offender is the person applying for the passport. There was concern about some of the Connétable s because we quite often sign applications on behalf of people. I do not see Article 2 covers that but maybe I have read it wrong.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Having reread it, I thought Article 2 was wide enough to cover false statements made by signatories ... not by signatories, sorry, by people signing the passport, judges and so on. I thought it was and I remember having a meeting with somebody, it may have been with the Chairman in which I got out and had a look at what was said on the passport. At first I thought it strange, in fact as it is worded "the person" must refer back to the person who makes or purports.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

The Guernsey legislation, I had here: "For the purpose of renewing a passport whether for himself or another person knowingly makes any false statement or false representation ..." whereas this one, I think, just covers if I am applying for my own passport ...

The Minister for Home Affairs:

This is where a person makes or purports to make an application and that would cover the situation in which it was not the ... I was going to say the applicant, it was not the person in whose name the passport was being sought but some silly person who had signed it on their behalf. So they would be purported to be making an application then. I am quite relaxed if there is not a statutory offence, I do not know if Steve is, to cover the counter-signatory.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Would that be picked up under common law then? If you did a false declaration ...

The Connétable of St. Martin :

There is no aid and abet either is there, Steve? Sorry I interrupted you, I am thinking how you are saying it.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I am just concerned that there is nothing to cover that.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

No, that is right, this does not cover it.

The Connétable of St. Martin : If you put an aid and abet ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

But does any common law offence cover it?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

If you wanted to cover it, then you would change the word "the" in paragraph 2 to "any".

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Which is what I am saying with the Guernsey one, which is "any person knowingly makes".

The Minister for Home Affairs: Knowingly or recklessly alters ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I think it is an important point to make, if you countersign something for somebody the passport office, the immigration officers are going to take that as being the correct position. If you are saying that you knew somebody for 4 years when you knew them for 4 minutes I think there is a clear intent to deceive.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Some of the information contained in that is best of knowledge and belief. Now, if the counter- signatory made no inquiries ... in practice it is quite difficult because if someone comes to you because you are the Connétable of the Parish or because they know you through church or whatever, and produces an application and you say to them: "Have you put down your correct date of birth?" you know, you can ask the question: "Is this information correct? Is your name spelt right?" but you are not really going to go much beyond a general inquiry because it is quite insulting to suggest that the person does not know their date of birth or whatever.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

But the fact that they put have put false ... even accidentally put something false on an application form, you would not be responsible for that, you would only be responsible for saying that you knew them for any length of time.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

You could be responsible in this way, because at the moment the form is indicating that the information on the passport is correct to the best of your knowledge and belief.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

There is the get out clause, it is to the best of your knowledge.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, but if it was not the best of knowledge and belief ... the difficulty is the recklessness test here, knowingly or recklessly makes a false or misleading statement. So in what circumstances could you recklessly be making a statement that it was not to the best of your knowledge and belief? Recklessness requires knowledge of a risk of a state of events and then you are going on to take the risk.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

There is a clear difference, is there not, in the new law between common law and the fact that this is now ... it is the recklessly part that has been included now that makes ...

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, recklessness widens it because you are reckless if you know there is a risk of something but you go on and take the risk. I suppose if you said: "Well, I trusted this person, it is a person I have known, I asked them whether the information was correct and they said it was" I do not think you could be asked to go beyond that. This is the difficulty, I think, in this. If we change "the person" to "any person" then potentially we create a grey area in relation to the responsibilities of the counter-signatory. If we do not then we leave it wide open.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I was looking at ... because we have got them in the parish halls, I was looking at the passport documentation that you are given and there is no ... which I think is going to be needed if the law changes, there is no actual explanation as to what your responsibilities are as a counter-signatory. It just says what you have to do, it does not tell you what the consequences are.

[12:45]

The Minister for Home Affairs: Absolutely, because there are not any.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

But in the new law there will be and I think it needs to be made quite clear to people ...

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes. Have you got a form there?

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Is there anything you ever forget?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

What are your feelings about this: is it best to move to "any person" to try to catch the fraudulent counter-signatory or would you want to reduce ... you could potentially create 2 sets of offences here. You could create one set of offences where it is "the person" and there you would have the higher standard, and you could create a second separate statutory offence in relation to any other person where you perhaps would take out "recklessly" and reduce the test to knowingly.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : What are your thoughts?

The Connétable of St. Martin :

That is what you have in Guernsey "knowingly makes any false statement".

The Minister for Home Affairs: Knowingly?

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Yes. I am aware you have something there, Steve, it is not ...

The Minister for Home Affairs: I think the simplest ...

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration: It is only covered by common law if you want to use it.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I think the simplest thing is to take our "recklessly" and then widened it out to any person.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Then you have a catch all for both.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, because then "knowingly makes a false or misleading statement, signs a document which a person knows to be false, knowingly alters or falsifies, a forged passport ..." My gut feeling is if you want to bring in the counter-signatory the simplest way is to take out "recklessly" because then I do not think you have any problem with prosecuting an accounting signatory who knows that this is the person stated. Does that make sense?

The Connétable of St. Martin : Yes.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Are you happy with that, Steve?

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration: Yes, go on.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

The alternative, frankly, would be to create 2 offences with 2 different tests and I think that is rather inelegant. But it is very hard to see how a person is going to be reckless as to their place of birth or whatever. You might have a situation in relation to your status as a Channel Islander or rather the reverse, because we are the disadvantaged ones. Your statement that you had a grandparent or whatever who was ... you could be reckless as to that, I suppose. I am happy to do that if you are happy with that. So we move to "any person" and we would move the test out to knowingly.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Just thinking of driving licences, when we have so many court case where people had forged driving licences and it was only an offence if they were using them for the road traffic legislation, but this is different, is it not? If you possess a passport which is false you would fall under Article 3 knowingly possesses a forged passport. It doesn't matter what you are using it for, if you are stopped ... you are likely stopped at a port I would imagine, anyway, but if you have a forged passport ... whereas if you have got a forged driving licence and you are not using it for any reason, it is no offence, is it? If you are using it to maybe get into a nightclub, it is certainly not an offence under the Road Traffic Law.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It would be a forgery, though. You cannot do it any more of course with the new licences but it would be a forgery. I think the courts were very generous in not charging youngsters who change their age to get into licensed premises with forgery. I think it was just so bad on their record.

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration:

They do do it with passports as well. We have had passports returned to us where they have changed the date of birth.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Have they?

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration: For getting into nightclubs. Yes.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

So would this be a forged passport in that case? With a 2 year prison sentence.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

If we take "reckless" out of Article 2, I have just seen "recklessly" coming in forgery of passport or knowingly or recklessly purchases or receives a forged ... I think that is okay, from the person knowingly or recklessly possesses a forged passport. I think "recklessly" is okay there because you cannot ... they have bought driving licences and things like this, you know they have bought passports and a lot claim that they did not know that it was not ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

This was just another question that we have, can a counter-signatory be protected in any way if they have manipulated into making ... is there any protection for them if they ... any defence for that?

The Minister for Home Affairs: Matrimonial duress, do you mean?

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

That could be one of them. Could be one of them.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It is not just in Jersey, it is not just Guernsey because this M.P.s (Member of Parliament) wife was running that defence as to why she had taken his ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Speeding points.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Speeding points, incredible. Who is going to believe that?

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Well, nobody did fortunately. That is why she got so banged up.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

No, I do not think that is any different to any offence, is it?

The Connétable of St. Brelade : There is no defence in that.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

There could be a defence, I suppose, of acting under duress. I cannot remember the details but it has to be pretty extreme and life-threatening.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

The Article 4(2), 6 hours' detention ... I am just working out that works with Police Procedures and Criminal Evidence.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

But this is before they go to a police station or customs office. "May not be detained in a place other than police station or customs office."

The Connétable of St. Martin :

So what is that for? Where would that fall in?

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration:

For example you could be ... if you are in the passport office and you have made a false application and we found it there, and we have got the custody suite down Elizabeth Quay, which under P.P.C.E. (Police Procedures and Criminal Evidence) is the customs office. So you could not keep them in the passport office for 6 hours before taking them down to be questioned down the custody suite or moving them to a police station.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Otherwise principles of P.P.C. law ...

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration: P.P.C.E.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

P.P.C.E., sorry, yes, I get confused with P.A.C.E. (Police and Criminal Evidence). The principles of P.P.C.E. law would apply so this is an additional restriction to P.P.C.E.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I know this gets asked with every piece of legislation but was any public consultation done in regards to this law?

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration:

No. The reason that did not happen basically is that we encountered ... well I encountered a case ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade : You encountered problems.

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration:

... where someone did that and then I came across the letter from the Attorney General of the day in 1994 saying that it would be a good idea to have something that replicated the Guernsey legislation. I looked at those 2 together and then just took it forward, obviously referred it to the Minister to say: "Would it be appropriate to speak to the law draftsmen" and he made the decision.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Who would we consult with? There is a situation where people are clearly committing fraudulent acts and we do not have a provision for enforcement or an adequate enforcement provision.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

The one issue that we brought up is that we thought might have not necessitated consultation but might have been a consultation would have been on the counter-signatory part in terms of the risk to carers, for example, or people that work in residential homes that countersign just to see what their opinion was in terms of that change in legislation. I think the fact that we have worked around to a ... I think that probably gives them the sort of protection ...

The Minister for Home Affairs:

In fact, ironically there was not a risk because we still ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I know but now we are adding one. But adding one in the right context, I think, which is important.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It is duress type things, but who do you consult on that? Obviously carers are particularly in a ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

But do you think there is a risk that by taking out the recklessly there is a risk that we could be drawing people into prosecutions that we do not need to be drawing them into? But presumably as a Minister you would not want to see people making false statements on passports?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Absolutely. I think if they are they should be prosecuted. It is almost a matter of public policy really.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

What will you do in terms of public awareness about this?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I think clearly the forms will have to change.

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration: We are reviewing the forms in light of central argument.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

The forms will have to be changed to explain to people in relation to the application that they commit an offence if such and such or such and such.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

The printing in the U.K. makes no difference?

The Minister for Home Affairs: Sorry?

The Connétable of St. Martin :

The printing of the passports in the U.K. ...

The Minister for Home Affairs:

No, none at all because our people are still going to do all the applications rather than them actually then manufacturing the passports themselves, they will send the passport off to be printed in the U.K. It makes no difference.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Under Article 8(2) with the Bailiff giving the warrant, you probably understand it more than I do, does that include Deputy Bailiff ?

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes, Lieutenant Bailiff .

The Connétable of St. Martin : It does not have to say that?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

No, they substitute. Believe it or not, apparently for centuries the Bailiff virtually never sat in court and appointed a lawyer, who is the Lieutenant Bailiff , to do it. That is why they had Bailiff s for centuries who were not lawyers. But no they substitute. The Deputy Bailiff substitutes always. It is like the Magistrate's Court, the Assistant Magistrate substitutes for the Magistrate and so do the relief magistrates.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

The taking of photographs in Article 7(4), the person takes the photographs themselves.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Or they can be taken for them.

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration:

The investigating officers or the individual themselves and should provide them with a copy.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Presumably it is talking about a photocopy of the document.

Director, Legal States and Revenue, Customs & Immigration: Or any documents that are seized.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I know it is referred to as a photograph, it is actually a photocopy.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

We have 2 minutes because ... we have to finish in 2 minutes. I have got nothing, I will leave it to ...

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

No, I think you have covered everything I asked you and you have asked it.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Is there anything you want to add? I know we did not have the opportunity ...

The Minister for Home Affairs:

No, again, thank you for your added value here because I clearly did not look at this as carefully as I should have done. I know I was under time pressure because I wanted to get this lodged so it could be debated before Easter because we have got a substantial logjam, we are trying to move everything forward as far as we can. Obviously in light of the 3 areas of change I will defer the debate because I now need to put in amendments in relation to this.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Are you just going to put it back one sitting?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, I would hope to be able to debate it the sitting after but that list is quite busy at the moment, so be it. It is just trying to get the whole process moving is ... although I certainly should have spotted the police officer one and I misread the other ones.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

We have got up to closing time. Thank you both for coming, especially the Minister obviously because it has been a very long morning for you. But thank you both for coming and we look forward to the amendments.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Thank you. I will give you credit for them.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I have a very hardworking panel. I should say officer as well.

[12:59]