Special Education Needs - Minister for Education, Sport and Culture - Transcript - 16 June 2015

Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Special Education Needs

TUESDAY, 16th JUNE 2015

Panel:

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour (Chairman) Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour

Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier

Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier

Mr. B. Lamb (Independent Consultant)

Ms. J. Sevior (Independent Consultant

Witnesses:

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support Head of S.E.N.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture Principal Educational Psychologist

[19:28]

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour (Chairman):

This is the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel and we are here questioning the Minister for Education today on his policies on special educational needs. We will refer to S.E.N. (special educational needs) throughout the hearing and we mean by that special educational needs. I am Deputy Louise Doublet . I am the Chairperson of the panel and I will let my panel introduce themselves.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier : Deputy Sam Mézec , St. Helier No. 2.

Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour

Hello again. Vice Chairman of the panel, Deputy Jeremy Maçon, St. Saviour , Petite Longueville.

Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier :

Deputy Martin of St. Helier , Deputy and now co-opted on to the panel.

Mr. B. Lamb:

Brian Lamb, an independent consultant working in the field of S.E.N. and disability.

Ms. J. Sevior:

Ms. Juliet Sevior, an independent adviser in S.E.N. to the panel.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Could the Minister please introduce himself and his department?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes. I have to confess, unfortunately I have a bit of a chest infection; so you are going to get a bit of coughing all the way through I am afraid. My name is Deputy Rob Bryans. I am the Minister for Education.

Head of S.E.N.:

Giselle Willis, Head of S.E.N. I, too, have a bit of a loss of voice; so apologies in advance.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

Cliff Chipperfield, Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support.

[19:30]

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

Justin Donovan, Director of Education, Sport and Culture. I am fit and well but I suspect I might end up with a cold.

Principal Education Psychologist:

I am Julian Radcliffe, Principal Educational Psychologist.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Thank you very much everybody. Just a quick word about timings. We are aiming to finish at 8.45 a.m. We have got a little bit of flexibility until 9 o'clock. Members of the public, please feel free to slip out quietly if you need to. So it is very important that we have succinct answers. I know we all love to talk about education but if we could really try to keep it to the point. I apologise in advance if I do have to cut anybody off but very brief answers, please. Just to begin, I want to make it very clear to the Minister and the department and the public that what we have seen so far, in terms of special educational needs provision in the Island, we have been very impressed with. The provision certainly at the more severe levels is really excellent and I know our advisors from the U.K. (United Kingdom) will echo that. So the aim as a panel is to assess the policies, see if they are the right policies and if they are being implemented effectively and to add value through this process, through questions and looking into the special educational needs. So we are looking forward to a very open exchange. I am going to start with the first question, which you have as question one. Can you very briefly for us, please, Minister, just outline the S.E.N. provision in Jersey, for example the School Action Plus?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Okay. Well, I think you are probably already aware we have a very inclusive educational system here in Jersey. So what we are trying to achieve is that every child is given an equal opportunity and where that is not available because of a learning difficulty, extra provision is given. In the majority of these cases, these needs are covered in our mainstream settings, firstly through ordinarily available provision. I am sure my colleagues, as we go on further and you have more detailed questions, will answer what these represent. We have a graduated response which provides the framework, documents the planning, the intervention, monitoring and evaluation. We have high-quality teaching, which is a prequel to the school action. This describes the support, resources or help that school provides, which is additional to or different from the school's differentiated curriculum offer. That leads on, should that not resolve the problem, to School Action Plus which describes the support and resources from within and outside the school, including involvement with external agencies. Again, if that does not meet the requirements then exceptional action is required at that point. This will normally arise out of extended interventions and it is at that point we discuss and record the need. Is that what you wanted?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes, that is perfect. Thank you very much. Could you outline for us, please, how S.E.N. is picked up in the preschool years, either at nursery, when the child is in a States nursery, or even before that?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Okay. Can I pass to my colleague?

Head of S.E.N.:

We have established a preschool forum and it is a forum where we have a representative from all the agencies in the Island and Education and any child that is identified with a special educational need from zero is notified to the preschool forum. We track, as a group, progress and ensure that the right people are involved at the right time and also to ascertain what sort of support they are going to require when they meet statutory school age. So whether they can go mainstream with ordinarily-available support or whether they need more specialist provision, which might be resources units that caters for physical impairment, hearing impairment or a more specialist school like Mont a L'Abbe.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I can understand from your answer that teachers in a nursery school and a state school can refer children on to this preschool forum if they think a child has extra needs?

Head of S.E.N.:

No, it is before school. So we are tracking ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Sorry, I mean nursery schools, nursery level.

Head of S.E.N.: Private nursery, yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

No, within a States nursery. So before they are in formal schooling, when they are in a nursery.

Head of S.E.N.:

If their needs have been identified they will track all the way through to reception level. So whichever nursery they are in, a notification can come from whichever setting.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So that is available in the States school nurseries and for the private nurseries?

Head of S.E.N.: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can I just ask how you communicate that with the private nurseries? Are they aware of it?

Head of S.E.N.:

They have all had terms of reference for the preschool forum. They have regular updates if we change any of the paperwork. Ruth Levesey, who is our early years' adviser, upskills the teachers in the private settings and our preschool support services works with the States setting.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Could I ask, what is the S.E.N. budget, please, within your States nursery to support this?

Head of S.E.N.:

At the moment I am waiting full confirmation after today, but we have put in an additional bid. It has been an area that has not had funding. So for January 2016 we recognise we needed to put lot more money into the nought to 5s and I am awaiting the outcome of today. I do not know ...

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

I will update if you like. At the moment the support that you are referring to, schools are having to fund from other sources. So today we went through all our budget. Sorry, Giselle, we have not had a chance.

Head of S.E.N.: No, no.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

Literally today while you were at Mont a L'Abbe, that was one of the items we discussed. From January we will be appointing an early years' special educational needs adviser full-time to do some of that work, plus 2 key workers to work particularly with families not just preschools. Also, we have put £90,000, I think, into the schools themselves. So it is around about £200,000.

Head of S.E.N.: Okay.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

In fact we have frontloaded that in preparation ... it is part of the Medium Term Financial Plan from 2016 to 2019 and as we were hoping that that would come through, we preloaded the support for this autumn term. So all the young people going into the States school in September, that funding has been allocated to support those young people.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Can I just confirm one thing? What you have just highlighted there, does that cover the period of nought to 3 years old? That is what that funding is for?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture: Well, preschool and nurseries.

Head of S.E.N.: That is right, yes.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Can I just check the budget then covers the 20 hours in private nursery? They already get 20 hours education in private nurseries at 3 and 3 months.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

That is a separate budget. That is still there. This is in addition to the N.E.F. (Nursery Education Fund).

Deputy J.A. Martin:

So if a special education need is recognised in a private nursery and they get the 20 hours free, there will be more money?

Head of S.E.N.:

At the moment there is a slight difference between the private nurseries. They can access J.C.C.T. (Jersey Child Care Trust) from the Child Care Trust for additional need. States school nurseries will now have additional delegated funding to meet the needs.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

Just to be absolutely clear, sorry, at the moment the private nurseries can access funding which the States nurseries cannot. What this does is level that playing field. It takes that anomaly out.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

At the moment in the States nurseries there is no funding and you are seeking ... that is a growth ...

Director of Education, Sport and Culture: We have got that. That is in.

Head of S.E.N.:

That has been secured.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : You have got that?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Deputy J.A. Martin: Did you say £90,000?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture: Just over £200,000.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

That is across the private and the States nurseries? Sorry, have I misunderstood?

Head of S.E.N.:

About £100,000 of that will go straight to the schools so they can put in the necessary provision.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Just for nursery ring-fencing?

Head of S.E.N.:

For the nursery because that is where the S.E.N. funding to schools did not include nurseries. It was only for children of statutory school age or above, but it also expands an early years team so we can have some specialist key workers and advisers who will support in both States and private all the way through.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

What does it look like for a child who is 3 and a half years old with extra needs in a private nursery versus a child in a States nursery? What does that look like, the work that is done with those 2 children?

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: From now or from September?

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Today.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: Well, it is different.

Head of S.E.N.:

If a child has got additional needs, we discuss and track their needs within the forum and make sure that every agency that needs to be involved is. If it seen that the nursery is saying they want additional support, we would send in a specialist teacher to support the nursery, to identify those needs ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : In private or States, sorry?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture: Either.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : In either?

Head of S.E.N.:

Yes. If it was a private nursery, they have a way where they can apply for funds through the charitable Jersey Child Care Trust. That is free to access that fund. It if is a school nursery, then they can make an application to the Education Department now moving forward.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

So the additional £90,000 is just to even that up.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Right, okay.

Principal Education Psychologist:

Can I add that the educational psychology team are not limited to States settings only? If there is a child with complex needs, there is likely to be a resource implication linking that child year on year. A psychologist would still be involved, so we do not make that distinction.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Can I just ask about the preschool forum and the membership, which has got lots of people involved? I just think, because a lot of things have moved across from nought to 2, there is no G.P. (general practitioner) interaction on that forum. Is that covered anywhere?

Head of S.E.N.:

Yes, it is. It is covered through the C.D .C. (Child Development Centre) team. The G.P. fields to the representative of that team because it is very difficult to get a G.P. as regular, every 6 weeks. They contribute and the representative comes and brings any additional reports or information.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Do you find that is working, G.P.s are referring quite a few children from the nought to 2s?

Head of S.E.N.:

Well, we know who is being referred to them and then we get all their reports, so yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

This is the 2-year health visit, which is not compulsory any more, and I understand that the vaccinations can be done by the G.P. So children do not always go to the health visitors for their 2-year check. Since that has changed, have you had less notifications? Are you struggling to find out about children from the 2 years?

Head of S.E.N.:

At the moment we have got a predictable level of notifications coming through to each forum. I have to say it is a newly-established group. It has been operational for about 18 months and it is evolving all the time. It is getting more sophisticated. As a single forum we are getting at least 6 to 8 new notifications.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Do you feel there is anything more that needs to be done in terms of education being notified as early as possible when a child is going to come through with S.E.N.?

Head of S.E.N.:

I think we can always improve on our co-ordinated approach with other services and that is what we are endeavouring to do.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Any specifics on what you would like to see, maybe from the Minister?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

It was interesting that when you first brought Professor Lamb into the arena ... and I was interested because I had taken up a couple of your reports and read them. I have not quite got to the bottom of the second one yet, but the Lamb inquiry, which is the report's secondary estate, which I thought was quite good, and I noticed that your focus tends to be on the communication side of it. That, to me - and it is new discussions I have been having with the team - is where I would start to look for that sort of thing. I think much more communication could be done.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Communication from who? Do you mean from the Health Department?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

From what we do with regard to parents picking up the sort of things that are in those reports. I think they are areas that give me ... it is something I am very interested in within education anyway, to increase the ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : You would like to see ...?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: More communication.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

More communication from the Health Department informing the Education Department?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Not just the Health Department. I think from the Education Department with regard to parents.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Just going back to what we were saying about the 2-year health check and the information, how do you feel the communication is between the Health Department, in terms of these needs, to your department?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: As far as I know, it is okay. I have not had any ...

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

We get very few surprises, but the gap was in knowing these children were coming to the education system and not having a budget to support them. I found that very uncomfortable and so what happened was schools and others were taking funding away from other sources. So that has closed the gap. We know who the children are. That makes it even worse really, if you know who the children and we still cannot fund them properly, which is why we put this ... we are talking very small numbers here, a dozen or so a year, but for those children this is very important.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

Our only surprises come from new-to-Island, but that is understandable.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Did you want to jump in before we move on to the next item?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Yes. I am surprised you say that because even things like dyslexia, et cetera, can take a little while before they are identified in the services. Therefore, you will not always know ...

[19:45]

Head of S.E.N.:

We have to be really careful with pre-schoolers and early years because sometimes you do not know if it is as developmental need or a special educational need. If you diagnose or you place a child in a provision or a specialist school when you have not really given the time to see how they are going to respond to the support and interventions, you could get it wrong and you would never want to put a child in a specialist provision if it is a developmental need. So we are trying to really work hard to make sure we are giving all the support and making decisions before they go into reception.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

It is probably also worth saying that what we are trying to do is provide a service which responds to need rather than diagnosis because - you are quite right - sometimes it can take a long time for children to get a diagnosis. What we are doing is trying to respond to the needs that they are presenting, diagnosis or not, so we hit the ground running. You are right; it can take some time to come through.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Thank you for your answers. I think we should move on to Deputy Mézec . He has the second part of this question.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Deputy Doublet has already sort of asked questions about budget and funding on one element, but can I ask: what is the overall amount that is spent on special educational needs in total?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : As brief as you like.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

Well, I will not go through the budget. I have provided you with the detailed budget. There are 4 main areas for budget for us. One is the cost of the special schools and you have visited some of those and you have that detailed budget. Second is for cost of provisions within our mainstream schools. The third cost is to the team at the centre and, fourthly, the cost to delegated S.E.N. funding to our mainstream schools. In total, it comes to about £11.5 million across the whole service. I have brought all the detailed figures. So if you want another copy you can have it today, but your officer has got all that information.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

No, that is fine. We might ask you some questions that we already have an understanding of.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes, we understand.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Just for the record.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

Okay, sorry. Sorry, I know you want to move on quickly, but it is quite an important point, this. It is quite, I think, helpfully difficult to define exactly how much we spend on special educational needs and I think schools would be surprised if they realised how much of the mainstream funding they are spending on special needs. So in a secondary school or a primary, with a set for mathematics, they are spending more money on the lower set through staffing than they are on the top set because that is supporting children with learning issues. So sometimes it is quite difficult to put an absolute figure on the amount of spend we spend on S.E.N. It is certainly more than the budget would demonstrate and that is how it should be.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

Yes. I have had teachers constantly tell us they do invest more in special educational needs than the amount we delegate out to them.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : We have heard that too.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, and if they check I think you will find they spend more than they realise.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

How do you work out if you think you are getting good value for money, the money that you know is spent?

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: From our delegated funding?

Deputy S.Y. Mézec : Yes.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: Giselle, do you want to ...

Head of S.E.N.:

In February 2014 we developed new systems and process so we could have more accountability with what the schools were spending the money on. We developed a policy, the ordinarily available provision, for children and pupils with special educational needs in mainstream schools. The schools get delegated funding and it is not just a lump sum given to them. It is a funding

formula based on proxy measures according to the predictable level of need we think that school has. So there are some schools who get a far higher level of funding, in particular some of the town schools, and we are now holding schools to account for how they use that money and this is new. The money was first delegated in 2007, but we never asked schools what they were doing with that money. So we thought we will support them by writing guidelines of what sort of things they should be doing with the ordinarily available document and we also asked them to track what they do with it through provision mapping. We have been supporting the schools to develop their provision mapping. We have been requesting them to start developing their processes from September 2014. So provision mapping and I.L.P.s (Incorporated Limited Partnerships) are how we track their delegated funding.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

One thing that has been spoken of recently has been the idea of a people premium. How would this as a concept work with the current S.E.N. funding?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

It would be a separate issue in a sense. Just to pick up on the last point, the other thing we need to be, I think, better at going forward is holding schools to account for S.E.N. by the educational outcomes of the children. We check the quality of their provision and how they use the provision, but we need to get smarter in tracking the actual progress the children make in learning. That is just about that last point. On this point, I would not want to confuse people premium with special educational needs. There is an overlap, you are quite right. So there may well be children with special educational needs who will also benefit from the people premium, but there will be children without special educational needs that will also benefit. Most will not. Most of the children will benefit from the people premium. For example, if we have children from very low income families, mum and dad working very hard, who may be in cramped accommodation, there are all sorts of vulnerabilities to that child and their access to learning might be problematic. So we would use the people premium to target those children in all sorts of different ways. It will overlap but it will run alongside the special needs budget.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can I just jump in very quickly? Some of the information you gave us, and thank you very much for everything that you have given us, is your S.E.N. funding formula, which I think you have just told us about. It is marked: "Confidential." Is that correct, that it is confidential?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture: That might have been the earlier version.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Do you want a quick look at it?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

It has got a fair bit of information on it.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

It is out there with all the schools. We have not kept it secret. I think it may have been the briefing document we had before we took it to schools.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. Can I ask you a question about this then?

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: Yes, of course you can. Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

You are using this Carstairs index to identify areas of deprivation, which will then translate into S.E.N. funding, which just looked very similar to me to the pupil premium and I just wanted to hear a little bit about the different and, again, going back to Sam's question, what impact the people premium will have on this and your ways of funding.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

It will be entirely additional to it. We will run the S.E.N. funding formula in exactly the same way but then if schools have children with a requirement of particular classes, one-to-one tuition ... for example, one of our town schools may have 8, 9, 10 or 12 children who will qualify for people premium. The money will be given to those particular pupils. It will be targeted at those particular pupils and it may be that 5 or 6 of those pupils would all benefit from a family support worker, in which case that head may well employ a family support worker to work with those families. We will start with the child's learning needs and build up from that. If there are some children who will get additional funding on top of the special educational needs provision, we are quite comfortable with that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So you envisage a positive outcome for S.E.N.?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes. We think about 20 per cent of the Island's children will benefit from pupil premium and there will be, I think, some overlap between some of those children who have special educational needs. We would rather celebrate that overlap rather than try and avoid it.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

It will naturally have a positive impact on S.E.N. pupils as well?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture: It will, yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Thank you. Sorry, Deputy Mézec :

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

I think this sort of neatly leads into what on your sheets will be question 5. We have heard of schools who have their dedicated S.E.N. budget, which they do supplement with other money they have allocated to them. Where does all of this sit in what we know is the current climate at the moment with budget restraint across Government? How is this, as an area, being protected?

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

I will start with that if you wish. As you are aware, through the current financial situation, we are held to account with the amount of total money that the director discusses and we have had our budget line put in place. Internally, within the department, there are always challenges where we find those savings. Within Special Educational Needs, the director and other members of the senior management team have protected the Special Educational Needs budget. So from 2015 to 2016, with our fixed budget, there is no difference. Of all the areas across our service, ours might be the only which is protected but, of course, that is in real terms ... the number of children coming into the service with special educational needs is, in reality, because of demographics and, simply because of demographics, is increased. Obviously the money has to go a little bit further but, in terms of protection, the support of the department director has been outstanding for our budget area.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Will you be seeking to increase funding for it then given the demographics?

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

Well, I think the director just spoke before. We have been successful with that Medium Term Financial Plan bid because our gap was preschool and we have been successful with that growth, which is ... we have been really, really fortunate.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

One of the conversations we need to continue to have - sorry, I am coughing as well now; I think I might sit over there - is we have additional growth in our budget, despite the cuts, to cope with demographic changes, so if we have more children coming in. We need to find a way of working out how many children within that new cohort will have special educational needs and, therefore, how much of that money will need to be spent on S.E.N. Our view is, if we are looking for savings, S.E.N. is the very last place we will ever go.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

Can I ask, Deputy - within that same question you had contained training - are you going on to that, because I would like to answer that as well?

Deputy S.Y. Mézec : Sure.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

We did not want it to appear that our training had been negatively impacted upon by budget. In fact, it has been the opposite. When we first met with you we briefed you on the inclusion review that we completed 2 years ago and the clear action plans that we have also shared with you around about workforce development in order that "ordinarily available" could be delivered within schools. Julian, do you want to just outline the breadth of the programme?

Principal Education Psychologist:

Just to add some breadth to it, there are about 11 teams within the educational support team and all the teams for the first time in the coming academic year, 2015/2016, have put together a comprehensive workforce development plan for schools. It covers all areas of the code of practice. It covers areas of autism, behaviour, mental health and wellbeing. It covers safeguarding. In fact all the key areas which I think will help schools to deliver on the ordinarily available package of support they need to work with children in schools. That will be available to schools to sit on the table in the staffrooms from the beginning of the year so staff can sit down and put together their own work from scratch on a school-by-school basis. I have a draft copy here, so it is available to be submitted at any time if that would be helpful.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Thank you.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Do you believe that teachers have enough time to go through that process?

Principal Education Psychologist:

Yes, I do. There has been a slight delay in getting this on to the table because typically the appraisals for teachers are done about now and this will be available to teachers towards the end of this term. However, because it is a 12-month running programme, the C.P.D. (Continuing Professional Development) for the staff, I am confident they will be able to access all the courses they need. So yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Will this be available then within school time and it is provided for and there is time to do it?

Principal Education Psychologist:

Yes. There are many strands to workforce training. This is centre-based training delivered through the centre, so it is through the BBC. That is a significant amount of training for the schools. However, there is the kind of day-to-day training that individual teams do on a school-by- school basis as well.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So it might be staff meetings and things like that?

Principal Education Psychologist:

Yes, absolutely. There is centre-based training, which is what this is, which all schools on the Island can access and will anyway, but there is the more bespoke training: educational psychology, wellbeing or whatever. We will do it on a school-by-school basis anyway.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes. We would be very interested to see that.

Principal Education Psychologist: Okay, I will hand that over.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Thank you.

Principal Education Psychologist: It is still draft.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, lovely. Can I just jump in, if you do not mind, Deputy Mézec ? We went to visit Mont a L'Abbe school today and we were absolutely blown away, I think it is fair to say, by the quality of the provision there and in particular the excellent head teacher and that is a theme that we have found throughout the schools, that we have got some fantastic head teachers, and that makes such a difference in the school. I think the advisers agreed with me when I picked up on the head teacher and all of her excellent practices in that school. The things that are happening in this very specialist school, how is that cascaded down? Is that head teacher given access to the other schools or are her teachers sent out? Does anything happen like that?

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

Do you want me to start? We are really clear and I am glad you have identified that. In fact you could have identified it across any of the other special schools and the provisions as well. We have a clear programme of outreach and there is a clear process to access that specialism and those skills. Before Giselle puts in, Justin, did you want to add to that?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture: No, it is okay.

[20:00]

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

Okay. Giselle, can you just talk through the process in terms of how schools access specialist support from Mont a L'Abbe, from the A.S.T. (Autism Support Team) provisions, through hearing impaired?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

We are talking specifically about not just support for the children but from the actual expertise of the staff, how that is passed on to staff in the mainstream schools?

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: Yes.

We have got a number of outreach services. Julian, would you prefer to, because you run most of the outreach ...

Principal Education Psychologist:

Yes. Perhaps I can put a bit of context here. Each of the educational psychologists have responsibility for an area of practice across-Island. They may be responsible for something like autism or looked-after children or visual learning, and as part of that role, which is about one-third of that role, I suppose, they have strategic and operational responsibility for delivering on those. They plan the future direction in that area and they may manage some teams around that. Now, currently, we have a psychologist who represents the centre in terms of overseeing outreach support from Mont a L'Abbe. So schools can put in requests for outreach support from Mont a L'Abbe. That is managed through a panel with the school, Mont a L'Abbe, and the professionals involved to agree the most suitable referrals, but not all requests are suitable. The outreach teach will go into schools to work with the teachers - not so much the children, but work with teachers - to make sure that the context is right for that child. I will say that is where the most significant part of workforce development cross-fertilises between the special schools and the mainstream schools. Mont a L'Abbe may themselves make choices in terms of their own workforce development activity, but that is their choice because we do not manage that. There is a very similar model for the autism provisions, the communication with support centres, who also have a similar outreach model which is, again, managed centrally through the education psychology team. They agree suitable referrals and then the outreach team who manages the autism bases, the C.S.E.s (Children's Service experts), then go and work with mainstream schools. Again, it is that cross-fertilisation of specialist provisions with mainstream schools. That is where the development happens.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I am very pleased and I think the panel will be very pleased to hear that that is happening. Some of the concerns that have been raised on our visits, et cetera, have been that head teachers would like more training. Is there scope to increase this practice?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes. I do not see why not. I will just take it a step further. Here in Jersey what we have not done yet but we will do is blur the edges between officers and head teachers. Some of the wisdom, which is what you would have seen this afternoon with Sharon, is not locked up in a sense because you have outreach and all the rest of it, but when we are developing policy, when we are looking at areas, what we tend to do is we consult but what we would like to do is get head teachers in on the ground first because we have got a number of very impressive head teachers

here - for example, interestingly, the head teacher that comes and sits on the S.E.N. team meeting - so they can feed in school-based issues. It also means, when there is a discussion about S.E.N. among head teachers, you have got a head teacher saying: "Well, hang on a minute, I was there when that was discussed and there is a reason for it." So I think we are very good at outreach work, but we need to blur the edges. The other thing I would say about training is the U.K. has 5 training days. We have 2 and an air show and it is a bit of a distraction when the Hurricanes are going over and you are trying to talk. I come back to Deputy Maçon's point earlier about time for the training. We do not have as much professional development time here in Jersey as in the U.K. and that is a problem. That is something we need to look at going forward.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

The next question I was going to ask was: how much pressure is being placed on teachers to assimilate this training and to look at key resources? Hopefully, if there are more training days within their contracted hours, that will improve but can you speak a bit more about pressure on teachers?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

I think we have had really good negotiations with the unions, in particular. In fact, the last meeting where they reported back to me about that very situation was talking about what we hope to do. I think you will have seen - it has been reported in the press - we are looking at perhaps changing term times to accommodate that sort of thing. But they have been very supportive, have they not?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes. Teachers, as you will know, are an interesting profession because if we reduce the workload on teachers they tend to work just as hard. So the idea is for us to remove all the distractions, or as many as we can, away from teaching, learning and planning lessons so that they will spend the same amount of time working but more productively in supporting children. We need to look very carefully at what we ask teachers to do in the first place. That is important. Secondly, as I say, we need to increase the time available to staff, but I am keen that we do not do too much set training where teachers come out, get told and then go back. The outreach work we do here is very rich and teachers learn an awful lot by having somebody in their classroom with their children and I would like to do that. If I can free teachers up, I would quite like them to spend time in each other's schools observing other practice rather than pulling up at the centre and standing up with a PowerPoint.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Thank you. Can I confirm ...

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

Can I just add to that quickly? We have an officer now at the department as well that co-ordinates all the training for all our professionals in our schools - so not only the training from our area but from the curriculum area, from the information technology area - and that person is responsible for ensuring that we do not offer too much; in other words, it is balanced.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can I just confirm from the Minister, before we move on, something that Justin just said? So just to confirm, the pressures of this new policy that is being placed upon teachers, which hopefully will see an improvement to children, you are hoping to alleviate pressures elsewhere. So can I ask just for confirmation from the Minister that you will be looking at other policies to see what you can lighten in teachers' loads in order for them to focus on this?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, I think that is something we set out right from the beginning, to do that.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes. We have a working group. We are using the Lean process to do that.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Just to follow up, most teachers recognise that the least effective way to teach children is to lecture to them. So why would we do that with teachers? It is much better to get them to do what the director has done.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

We look forward to seeing where you are going to be lightening the load.

Ms. J. Sevior:

You have got some amazing special provision, fantastic, and what you are describing in terms of the outreach, again that cross-fertilisation is fantastic, but would you know if there were some schools that, for whatever reason, were finding it difficult to come out and ask for the outreach or to engage with the special schools so some schools might be in the position of not having that development? Would you be able to pick that up in the systems that you have got?

Head of S.E.N.:

Now we have got the new systems in place there are regular school-based meetings at the beginning of each term at which - Julian might want to talk about our Palm meetings - any child that is causing a huge concern for a school is discussed and the school is supported in which way to go, so whether to raise them with an educational psychologist, to get wellbeing support, to refer to Mont a L'Abbe outreach, the A.S. (Autism Support) outreach. It usually as soon as the outreach starts going in and working with the school we get more and more information. These are the situations where we either tweak what the schools are doing so they refocus what provision they are putting in place because they have had specialist support supporting them to do so, or it might be the schools are doing an absolutely fantastic job, doing the best they can do and they are encouraged to instigate the exceptional action process, which will support them for the department to ascertain whether they need additional funds or whether the child is suitable placed within that setting.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Do you want to put a bit more detail around the department and the process?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Very briefly, please.

Principal Education Psychologist:

I was just going to say we have an extremely rich tapestry of support services for schools which I suspect would be the envy of most of the United Kingdom at the moment and we are really privileged in that. Because we can provide a regular visiting service to all our schools with pretty much all our services, we know our children inside out in the schools we attend to support with. When someone pops up who we do not know about, we are really surprised and, because we meet so frequently on a term basis, we have an opportunity to sit down with our schools and we know exactly what is going on in each school at any given time. I am really confident of that.

Mr. B. Lamb:

Can I just go back? This partly relates to another aspect of the question that Juliette mentioned and it is really welcome to see you looking at the accountability measures with school and mapping that and using all of those kind of tools. But are you confident within that that you can also look at the progression that children are making in relation to that delegated funding and, again, fine tune which schools are struggling with their current resources to make the progression you would expect - which are doing on average, which are doing better than average - so you can fine tune that approach to make sure the support is going into the right areas as part of all of that?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

I think that is a slightly mixed picture. I think that is done very well in some schools and not so well in others and I think that is a matter of time. It is because we, as a department, do not quite have the same data systems that other communities of schools have. We are a little bit behind on the

data here and we are in the process of investing around about £500,000 in a data system where we can track all of the children, not just special needs but all of the children. What we have at the moment are people working very hard to track the data and to monitor the children, but it varies slightly from school to school because we do not have a single system of recording and reporting. I think we are part way to that journey but I think you are right, it fluctuates slightly. I have not yet visited a school where I have concerns about it, but some schools have got that tied down and others are still getting there. I think we are on that journey.

Ms. J. Sevior:

Will the tracking be in all schools or just the States schools?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture: All schools.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Private schools as well?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

Private schools as well. I have spoken to the private school heads. There is an issue about who is going to pay, but if we want a single system we might have to, because the children in Jersey move sometimes between private and non-private schools, States fee-paying and non-States fee- paying. There is a lot of movement on the Island.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

That goes quite nicely to the last part of this question. Did you want to jump in?

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

I was not going to. I do not know if you want to ask it.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Public funding goes to the private school sector. What service level agreements are in place to ensure that children with S.E.N. have their needs met within those schools?

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: Which schools are we talking about?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Private schools.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

Independent schools? Not the States fee-paying; you are talking about ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Both, please.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Both classes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes, both types of private schools.

Head of S.E.N.:

Can you repeat the question?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Yes, I will.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: You have confused us with your question, I think.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay.

Head of S.E.N.:

Sorry, which question number are you looking to?

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: No, it is not on there.

Head of S.E.N.: It is not, okay.

Ms. J. Sevior:

Essentially our understanding was that there was some public funding that went into non-States schools and so the question is just trying to get at the accountability of the public funding that is going into non-States schools.

Principal Education Psychologist:

When we talk about services to schools, is that ...

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

You are talking about all funding to schools, not the services?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : S.E.N. Services.

Ms. J. Sevior:

Some public funding will be going into some non-States schools and there will be children in those non-States schools who have a level of S.E.N. So is there any accountability for the public money that is going into those schools, for what they deliver to you? You are commissioning a service from them essentially. How are you holding them to account for what is going in?

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: I think we would need to confirm ...

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

I am not sure what money we are talking about.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

I think the independent schools receive a grant from the States but there is no S.E.N. or very little S.E.N. that ...

Ms. J. Sevior:

But some of those children will have a level of S.E.N.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture: Oh, I see what you mean.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: Oh, right.

Head of S.E.N.:

In the private schools we invite them to absolutely everything, share our policies, and we hope that they would adopt as much as they can of our policies. We have sign-up from all but 2 private schools and they come to all our meetings. They ascertain within their own budgets how much they will put towards their S.E.N. provision, but we cannot influence that. We can just promote the good practice.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

None of our S.E.N. dedicated funding goes to the fee-paying schools.

Ms. J. Sevior:

But public money does?

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: Yes, but that is through the grant which ...

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, that is a fair point. If you take St. George's, for example, I do not think we put any money into schools like St. George's or ...

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: Not anymore.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

That has all stopped. So there are independent schools on the Island where we put no funding. Then there are a couple of schools, so Beaulieu, De La Salle, FCJ and the 2 primary schools, so there are 3 primary schools ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Helvetia?

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

We do not fund Helvetia and we do not fund St. Christopher's.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

So there are some schools which are private and we subsidise ... the idea is we subsidise the fees to parents, so in that sense we do put public money in. We do not have anything like the same control over those schools as we do the other schools. To be absolutely frank, I have not read the service level agreements for those schools. I will have to go back and check.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

But I think the numbers in those schools with S.E.N. are very low, are they not?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

Well, yes. Beaulieu has a number of children with special educational needs. For independent schools, they are pretty inclusive.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

They can access our services so we do not deny our services to those schools, but they are not funded by us.

[20:15]

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

But the implication of your question is a fair one. We are putting public money into independent schools for good reason and that is support, but we do not hold them to the same level of accountability as non-fee schools. That is a fair comment.

Head of S.E.N.:

Yes, although they do have S.E.N.C.O.s (special educational needs co-ordinators).

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, although they do on the whole work to our policy and procedures, but the control we have is not the same.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

You just said the schools can access your services but you do not fund them, so if they access your services, who pays?

Principal Educational Psychologist:

Right, okay, yes. So the schools do access a regular visiting service from educational psychology and behaviour support and from the wellbeing team, and they still have a termly planning meeting with different educational support teams. So there is no kind of gentle hand washing that this is not our responsibility. We re-established that years ago to make sure that children were not slipping through the net. Inevitably, I just find that in part they do not get the full range of services and time that other schools might get because they sit in a different part of the sector. It is kind of inevitable really, but they do get a regular service from the educational support teams.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

I think our philosophy of approach for that is exactly the same as the curriculum team. We are inclusive in terms of training offer, in terms of support. While we cannot hold them to account through ordinary available ... because we give them no funding at all for special needs, we do give them full support from our range of services.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

That is something we could look at. Overall it is a lot of money. It is not a huge sum but it is quite a lot of public money and one of the reasons I suspect we have not looked in too much detail in the past is because they are so inclusive. I have not come across privately funded schools that actively seek to be inclusive. It is quite interesting. Beaulieu College, for example, have spent huge sums of money converting part of their accommodation to accommodate 3 or 4 quite needy 6th form young students who could not make it in a mainstream 6th form. So they have gone to great expense to create an environment for those students. I have not come across an independent school that has done that. I know they are Catholic so, you know, there is a bit of moral fibre in there, but I can take you to a lot of Catholic schools that are not inclusive.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

I think, though, let us be clear. Through the law for these non-provided schools it is clear how we do hold them to account. With each of those schools we provide a grant for there is a clear service level agreement and there is clear data they provide every year. So do not think it is a loose arrangement. It is a very tight arrangement and so the public purse ... they are held accountable for the grant through that service level agreement. But it is not the special educational need area so that is why I was a little confused.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

But when we do hold them to account I am not sure how tight we are on the S.E.N. bit of it.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

No, but what we do hold them to account is meeting the needs of the children.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture: Yes, it is worth looking at.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Some of the evidence that we have seen is suggesting possibly that there might need to be ... you might need to look at what the private schools are doing. Do you feel that there is a similar level of children with S.E.N. in the private schools? Is it more or less or ...?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture: No, it is nowhere near.

Head of S.E.N.:

All schools, private and state, have to submit an inclusion register every term, so we know the exact numbers of children at different levels from all the private schools. The head of a private school will have those conversations with parents if they feel they cannot meet the need from within their resources and that would be down to the discretion of the head teacher of a private school because sometimes they just cannot.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

Mind you, we have a good working relationship with those head teachers and we actively work with them to maintain those boys and girls in those private schools because, of course, if they come out they come into our system. I know members of all our teams actively work across, the educational welfare officers, the wellbeing team, educational psychology team. So it is always better for us for those boys and girls to stay in the mainstream with their peer group than have to leave that service and come into our area.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Is there room for improvement on that, do you think, to keep more of the S.E.N. children?

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: There is always room for improvement.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I do not just mean from your ...

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

No, to be fair to those 4 head teachers - well, it is more than 4 head teachers - they are really reluctant to lose boys and girls out of their school because of their special need. Julian, I think you would support that.

Principal Educational Psychologist:

I would echo that. Perhaps going back to the question you asked, there is certainly not the same number of children, but when they are complex in private schools they are complex in private schools and they match the state schools very well in that sense. There is a lot of complex needs in those schools.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, right. I think we should move on. Deputy Martin, over to you.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Yes. Going back to what exactly is a record of need and what does it mean, who does it and do you have any plans to go down the ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Is it the right mechanism?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Well, the U.K. have just changed to the E.H.C. (Education, Health and Care), which is education, health and care plan, so I do not know why we are not doing that because we have just changed, as you say, very recently. I do not know which one is better so that is why I need the explanation.

Head of S.E.N.:

I think obviously the definitions of school action, school action plus, exceptional action and record of need are really important because they identify who is responsible and accountable for meeting those needs. So when we delegate funding to schools that is the school's responsibility. When schools believe the need of a child is over and above what they can deliver, they come to the department to apply for exceptional action. A whole process of assessment is done in usually a 4 to 6-week period and it could be that a record of need is then produced. The record of need is a document which describes the very special educational provision a pupil needs and the resource attached to it. Now, at the moment we work with goodwill with all the other agencies. We do not have the same laws in the U.K. that will help us go to education, health and care plans but our records of need do incorporate education, health, medical needs in one document. But at the moment we do not have the laws but we are looking into it on our business plan. In fact, we are going to a conference tomorrow in the ... no, Wednesday ...

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: Wednesday. Do not go tomorrow. [Laughter]

Head of S.E.N.:

... in the U.K. because it is something we would like to ...

Deputy J.A. Martin:

So you want to make it statutory, not goodwill, working ...? Because it has always been the goodwill but it is ...

Head of S.E.N.:

It is of all the agencies and it is ...

Deputy J.A. Martin:

If it works it is good but it is the goodwill.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

I would rather people do this because they think it is a really good idea than because it is the law. So even if it becomes statutory I would like to get us into that position first and then change the law to recognise good practice rather than the other way round. It is not the kind of thing people can do reluctantly. So we may well need to change the law but I think we should crack on with it anyway and look at that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can I just sum up from the Minister? So is the record of need the right mechanism at the moment, yes or no?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

It is the one we are looking at. You know, it is under consideration, so yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So the record of need that you have at the moment, is that the right mechanism? Just a yes or a no.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Well, yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. Do you think that education and healthcare plans would be an improvement on the record of need?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

That is why these 3 ... my colleagues are off to the U.K. to identify ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : So is that a yes?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay, thank you.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Sorry, just one more supplementary. The director said earlier that you want to take more pressure off of teachers doing different things and carry on with teaching, but it has sort of been reported that keeping these records of needs, getting the records of needs, overseeing the records of needs and getting them to a point where you agree that there is an exceptional action or whatever action is putting some extra pressure on the teacher.

Head of S.E.N.:

Well, the teacher is responsible for the high quality teaching and the differentiation within the classroom. Schools have S.E.N.C.O.s who support the teachers in differentiating and additional needs and special educational needs. It is usually not just the teacher who is filling out paperwork. It is the dedicated S.E.N.C.O. with a group, but it is not ... it is very succinct now. We are not asking for reams of paperwork. We are asking for a synthesis and analysis which is about 6 pages. It is much more efficient than what it was and I think a much more effective process, although schools ...

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Yes, probably it has not filtered down to some schools. We have had, you know, where they have what you need, they understand, others have not, and some have full-time S.E.N.C.O.s but others are doing it one day or ... It probably is because they are not under that ... you know, whatever formula ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Delegated funding.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Or the formula, yes, so ...

Can I add a bit to that, Giselle?

Head of S.E.N.: Yes, absolutely.

Principal Educational Psychologist:

I mean, in one respect this is about what we try to do is re-establish our thresholds and to make sure ... because the distinction between record of need or not is just money, but it is not just money, is it? It is the public purse and we have delegated responsibilities across the board to make sure we manage the public purse responsibly. Without an appropriate level of due process ... I think it is proportionate as a process we can put in ... they have only been putting in for the last couple of years but it does help us protect the budgets that we have, for right or for wrong.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

Just to throw a bit of controversy into the ... I do not have an awful lot of sympathy for the view that developing a record of need in Jersey is hard work and difficult. I just do not think that is the case. I think it is proportionate because the only unique reason these children need a record of need is because their need is really complex and, therefore, we need to spend time on it. If we need to spend time on these children and planning to meet their needs at the expense of children with less need, then that is what we need to do. I think it is a case of priority. The other reason I do not have an awful lot of sympathy for that line is that the record of need here is far more streamlined than the old statements in the U.K. It is a more sensible process and less bureaucratic. So it is difficult but I think it is very important if we are going to meet these needs of these children that we do put the work in to get this absolutely right. What is interesting here, which is very different to the U.K., is there is no tribunals, which I quite like. The amount of time my team in the U.K. and I personally have spent in pseudo courtrooms arguing over children I think is undignified and I have never come out of a tribunal thinking the kids have got a better deal. So in terms of making this statutory, I think we need to be really careful that we create some really good practice and then wrap it up in a process that everybody is signed up to. If it needs change in the law then ...

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

Can I just quickly comment on the E.N.C.O.s (educational needs co-ordinators) as well? Through the differentiated ... the delegated S.E.N. funding, one of the criteria is the size of school and there is an amount of money regarding size of school to fund the E.N.C.O. within the school. So, okay, head teachers, some head teachers invest additional resources to have them for more days of the week, but every school from the centre is funded for their E.N.C.O.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

So just on that, sorry, one more last ... just so I can get my head round this because your document says that no record of need ... is never refused to any child that meet the criteria, but on the sittings you have had there were 7 at one, 3 declined and 2 record of need so ... ceased to maintain. So, firstly, there is no appeal to that I am taking it because it is not law?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture: There is no tribunal.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

There is no tribunal, sorry, appeal tribunal. Then why would 3 be declined out of 7 or what does the record of need ceased to maintain mean?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture: Because they did not meet the criteria.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

They did not meet the criteria.

Head of S.E.N.:

Ceased to maintain, that is a really positive story. That means a child has had a record of need, school with the additional resources have been putting in specific interventions, and at the annual review each year of record of need, a big meeting is held to look at if their needs have changed, if the arrangements need to be changed. If a child has made good progress and no longer needs the additional resource or the specialist staff or the specialist placement, it is in a recommendation from the school that we cease to maintain. So that is a success story for a cease to maintain.

Principal Educational Psychologist:

Yes, it turns a record of need into an intervention rather than a lifestyle, which is exactly how it should be.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Thank you. Do you mind if we move on?

Deputy J.A. Martin: No, that is fine.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Thank you. I am going to ask Deputy Maçon to take 3 and 4 together.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I wonder if just before we do that, Chairman, something that certainly has come from our meetings with the parents and the submissions that we had about the records of need is who explains the record of need to the parent?

Head of S.E.N.:

When it is drawn up, it is the school's responsibility within 2 weeks of the record of need being drawn up and processed the school hold a meeting with parents to share the record of need with them and look at how they are going to meet the targets, the needs and the arrangements on there. That is within the parental guidelines that are sent out when the record of need is first issued.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

The parents sign that record of need to ensure ... so I know they have seen it and they have understood the content.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think we might talk about communication a little bit later. Shall we go on to 3 and 4? Thank you.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Okay, sorry. So the next kind of thing that came up was looking at diagnosis where the educational psychologist has come along because we have heard evidence that once diagnosis is found a lot more of the services are much free flowing and sometimes getting that can be an issue. So I just want to talk briefly if you could just explain to us at what stage does the educational psychologist come in?

[20:30]

Principal Educational Psychologist:

So, as I have alluded to, every school on the Island has a termly meeting with the educational psychologists and they can agree and negotiate work. Typically, children or students become involved with them as they move into school action plus. So beyond teaching, beyond school action, the school are looking for something, a professional, to add something extra to what they are trying to acquire for that young person over time. That will be the school action plus code of practice. In terms of a record of need and the schools looking to achieve that, if you like, and subsequently get an acquisition, I am very keen that all young children with complex needs are well known to psychologists, they have done thorough and detailed assessments and that school psychologist had the opportunity to develop a package of support for that child and that it has been thoroughly implemented, it has been thoroughly reviewed. But despite that, for whatever reason, the school is still struggling to provide for that child within their ordinary budget. So we are really trying to make sure that we get a sense of how children have responded to intervention based on a range of professionals, psychologists or otherwise. If at the end of ... and we try to specify a minimum of 2 terms to make sure that the time a psychologist becomes involved to a decision to progress to accepting that student, perhaps a record of need, if after 2 terms and there is a confidence that everything has been done as can be, schools can make a decision to initiate exceptional action, at which stage we would slip into a panel which is overseen by Giselle and it comes to the S.E.N. panel. If the S.E.N. panel decide that an exceptional action should take place, a very detailed and thorough psychological assessment would take place by the school psychologist, which leads into what is called a psychological advice. I believe that written advice is what underpins the detail of the record of need.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Okay. Can I ask ...

Principal Educational Psychologist:

You have not asked about diagnosis yet but ...

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Yes, but just ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can I just remind ... answers, can we keep them very brief now because we are running quite short of time?

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: But you are asking really good questions. [Laughter]

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

But on that point, at the moment is there any delay in that process of children getting through that process, being able to see an educational psychologist or a school psychologist?

Principal Educational Psychologist:

I think it is a matter of perspective because there may be some people who feel that they are ... some parents and schools perhaps who feel that a need is very complex and requires a very pressing response from psychologists, where a similar type child in a different context, perhaps a more challenged school, would not be such a priority. So some people may believe that is the case, but in my view we have a pretty hefty allocation of time to all schools across the Island and it is a registered psychologist. I am confident that my psychologists see the right kids in a pretty timely way bearing in mind we are a finite resource. It is an imperfect world.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

But the schools work with the educational psychology team to prioritise the children that they will work with.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

So effectively the service is being rationed?

Principal Educational Psychologist: Prioritised.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

No, the service is a finite service and what Julian does with his team is through evidence allocate proportionately through that priority to all the schools. So every school gets an offer. You would understand that some schools get more hours than others. However, within that team there is capacity as well for emergency, so that is all built in but rationed. Rationed and proportionality I think may be the same word.

Principal Educational Psychologist:

It is about trying to make responsible use of the public purse wherever we can.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Yes. So then within that, from the demand of those coming forward from the service, in the department's opinion is that ...?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Is there sufficient capacity?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Is there sufficient capacity, yes?

Principal Educational Psychologist: Yes, I believe there is.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Things are being dealt with in a timely enough manner?

Principal Educational Psychologist:

Yes. Sometimes cases slip into a panel and the child has not come across an educational psychologist, but we are written into some processes which I guess is the way it has to be sometimes. They become aware and they go: "Why has this child not seen a psychologist?" and I can look at it and my default position is to look at the psychologist and go: "Why have you not been involved with this case?" More often than not the psychologist has done nothing wrong. They were typically not even aware of the child because the child was not raised by the school. You know, it is half a dozen of one, half a dozen of the other.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Okay.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

There is sometimes confusion between the Educational Psychology Service and C.A.M.H.S. (Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service). There is a big difference between those.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: Yes, and I understand that issue.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Then just another question: how does diagnosis fit into the process?

Principal Educational Psychologist:

There is no relationship between any diagnosis and the release of any educational resources at all. That is something that seems to be perpetuated in the education system. You do not need a diagnosis around autism for provision base or you do not need a diagnosis of dyslexia to access any resources in school. We always as psychologists and as a group of professionals try to identify what the needs of a child are, not diagnosis, just an understanding of their need and then work with schools to decide how we provide for them. If we developed any services which were based on diagnosis, diagnosis does become a barrier to try to move things forward and the agreed diagnosis takes a long time to achieve sometimes. It is a barrier in itself, so we do not wrap that in any of our systems.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

That is an historic issue. I have been in post 3 years but before that it was an issue and ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Are you talking about C.A.M.H.S. now?

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

No, I am talking about diagnosis, that it was a historic way of doing things and it was like a barrier, but that has not been in place for at least 3 or 4 years.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Would you turn that on its head? If someone, a child, very young, entering into education, is diagnosed with very high needs, does that make any of the processes shorter to get the exceptional ...?

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: No.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

We are seeing some nods and some ...

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: Not diagnosis, identification of need or diagnosis?

Principal Educational Psychologist:

You have used kind of 2 labels there in one term.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

That is why you got a nod at this end and a shake that end.

Principal Educational Psychologist:

Diagnosis is different to diagnosed needs. They are not the same thing.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

All right. I will stick with diagnosed needs. Can the child who you know is going in at very high level bypass the school action plus and then go straight to the exceptional action?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture: But any child can do that.

Principal Educational Psychologist: Yes.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture: If its needs are complex enough ...

Principal Educational Psychologist: It is tricky because ...

Deputy J.A. Martin:

That is the answer I wanted to hear but I am getting the wrong ... looking in the wrong place.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: We understood your question in 2 different ways.

Deputy J.A. Martin: Sorry.

Principal Educational Psychologist:

It is the sentence you used, Deputy , because the phrase "diagnosed needs" does not make sense to me. You can have a diagnosis, which is autism or dyslexia, or you can have needs. When you put the 2 together it gets quite confusing because it does not really exist as a statement in my professional world. It just means special so ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Deputy Maçon, do you want to continue?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Did you want to pick up on anything?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So, just following on from the C.A.M.H.S. issue and the C.A.M.H.S. review that was done by another Scrutiny Panel, Minister, are you happy that your department is receiving adequate support from the Health Department and following those recommendations that it follows through to yours?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

You are happy, okay, thank you. That is a short answer. Okay. Any more questions, Deputy Maçon, on that?

Deputy J.M. Maçon: No, nothing more.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. We are going to move on to question 6 as you have it now. We have heard a lot of evidence from parents and I will just briefly cover a general theme that has come out. We are hearing that there is perhaps 2 kinds of children or 2 kinds of issue where there might be perceived to be problems. So one issue is perhaps children who have behavioural needs or S.E.N. that is presented and manifests as behaviour needs and they perhaps get the behaviour needs addressed rather than the learning needs, but this is a perception that we are receiving from the evidence. Also, on the flipside you have children who perhaps do have a learning need but they are so quiet and they do not act out and they act in, which I think you said, Juliet, so it is maybe not picked up on. Have I articulated that or did you want to add anything, Juliet?

Ms. J. Sevior:  

Essentially, are you confident that children with S.E.N. needs that may be being masked by either an acting out or an acting in, that their needs are still identified and then met within the system?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Thank you.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, I think this is as much perception as reality but like most perceptions there is a grain of truth there. So we often get parents who assume we are dealing with behaviour rather than the reasons behind that behaviour, if you like, dealing with the symptoms rather than the problem. I understand that perception because when children are challenging then you have to manage that behaviour there and then on the spot. It becomes the focal point of the intervention because if you are going to help the child move forward then you have to put in some management strategies around that challenging behaviour in order to understand it, unpack it and then provide the support in place. We are geared up for that. Where children are quiet and introspective I think there is a continuum. If they are children with genuine learning needs that require additional help, I think on the whole we are quite good at that. I think there is a bigger problem where children who may not have very significant special educational needs but are slow to pick up spelling and slow to pick up basic things, because they are so quiet and lovely a teacher can teach away. In other areas, if these children were not catching on, the penny was not dropping, they were not learning, they would misbehave. They get bored and they go off track, but a lot of our kids are so nice that they are rooting for the teacher and they will sit there not understanding. They will even put their hand up and hope they are not going to get asked a question.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So what is being done to address that?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

Well, I think we need to adapt our teaching strategies and the way to get at that is through assessment for learning and making sure that all the children have understood point A before moving on to point ... basic teaching technique, and that is something we need to work on. In terms of raising overall standards in Jersey, which need to be raised, there are 3 groups of children who I think are under-performing in Jersey and that is one group. It is a broader issue. I think there is an issue here in general terms of children's progress being limited because we are not spotting the fact they are not picking up. If you have special educational needs and you are quiet, then you are in greater danger of that happening. But because we are quite good at tracking progress, if children just stop making progress in individual schools, those children will get picked up. So I think it is a bigger issue than special educational needs is what I am saying.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

I would add I am very confident over the last 3 years that where needs have been identified through behaviours it is not the behaviour that has been dealt with, it has been the underlying needs. I see that time and time again through the work of the team I have.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

But there is some awareness that some of these issues are valid and you are addressing them?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

Absolutely. It is fascinating. I have sat in the back of a number of classes where these children have not quite got there, they have lost track about 20 minutes in and nobody has noticed because they are so beautifully behaved and they are smiling. It is not until the end of the lesson when the work is being checked that they ... you know, that is 20 minutes or so lost. So it is a big issue.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can I ask the Minister this? Sorry, just for confirmation that that issue is important to you and you will be pursuing priority ...?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes, it is, yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, thank you. I do think we maybe need to skip some of our questions as ordered just to try and fit in the really important ones. If we could go on to question 11 and Deputy Martin is going to take 11, 12 and 13 as they all relate quite closely to each other in terms of communication with parents.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Yes. I do not know if it is historic or it is still happening, but parents have complained that information moving from place to place, school to school, even from class to class, is not moving with the child and they are having to fill more things in. Is there a single point of contact and advice and information and guidance for parents? I think that will do for now.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Does that relate to question 12 as well?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes. Sorry, 11, 12 and 13 as a whole.

Deputy J.A. Martin: Yes, it is a group really.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes, if we want to get out before midnight.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

Okay. I would like to think it is a historic issue and not a potential one. For example, only 2 weeks ago we sent out a very timely reminder to all our schools around transition points and how important it was for the information around that child, especially around the child protection issues or very special needs, to travel with, whether that was from nursery into mainstream or primary, secondary, or even secondary into post-16 at Highlands. So that reminder went out again recently. I have not in recent times been aware of an issue with a parent without that communication going through. However, I think we are aware and I think the project work we are doing with early help and certainly through some of the States priorities now is that avoidance of parents having to tell their story more than once. We are very conscious that that has been the case in the past. Within our service I think we have things in place for that not to happen anymore, so that full information will go with that child to whichever next establishment will be there. It is around the technology as well, I think, and the data sharing across different departments.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So just to confirm with the Minister, you are aware that that has been a problem historically but you are putting things in place now to address it?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes, it is a historic problem, yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. Will you keep us updated on the progress?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

I think it is a whole States policy I think moving forward with eGovernment, yes.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Can I just pick up on that just to say you have talked about how that information will then follow a child through the education service? That is absolutely brilliant, but what work is being done for perhaps a child who then might have a mental health issue and then that be communicated to other departments?

Principal Educational Psychologist:

I can talk about this in part and it links to the multi-agency support teams. If I have understood the issue correctly, in secondary schools the multi-agency support teams are a platform on which professionals from the police, social care, from C.A.M.H.S., from education, from the youth service, school counselling services - with the appropriate consent of parents and young people because these are not statutory services that are being explored - are permitted to share information within a secondary school context.

[20:45]

So if it is done with consent, it is an opportunity for all professionals to discuss young people and to agree appropriate services for them at any given time. So that is very much in place at secondary level. We have not set up a similar system at primary level yet, but that is being discussed and is currently located in the mental health strategy review. There are mechanisms in place to discuss across agencies at the moment.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

Another thing worth mentioning that I mentioned earlier we are looking to invest ... it is a year away but we are looking to invest in a new management information system and we are working with health and social care to make sure we have a single system. At the moment we do not, so we have lots of different systems. We have agreed we will have a single system. It will save us some money by pooling our budgets. It is going to slow us down by about 6 months but I think it is worth taking the extra time to get a system which is in place.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

That system will also deliver on the early help that we were planning.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Yes. Well, I have just come from P.A.C. (Public Accounts Committee) and eGov is working on this "tell us once", which I presume is across the board, yes.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: Which is really refreshing for us.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Your data that you are going in will be "tell us once" and it will follow the person into each department?

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: Yes, we really hope that is successful.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

We had a demonstration from a company, Capital One I think it was called, and we had a look at the system. I was not familiar with it, but it looks as if it will do the job. Just expensive.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Do you want to ask this one?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Yes. We keep hearing or we are being told again if you shout loud enough you will be heard and in a small cohort of some highly specialised children ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

That was quite general, though, across a lot of the parents we spoke to. That was a theme.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

It was a theme, yes, it was not ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

We were very careful to say we are not looking at historic things. We were very careful to say that.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

No, I know. I certainly inherited that situation. I see parents frequently now and I do not think I have said no to any parent to come and talk, so I would say with some confidence it is not how loud you shout anymore, it is around the needs of the child. We have the evidence through the process.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So you are aware it has been a problem and you are building some bridges?

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

I certainly inherited that situation. I have been here 3 years.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

I can confirm I have met with a number of parents who have been very loud and it has not made a lot of difference.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: We certainly listen. I mean, we certainly still listen.

Mr. B. Lamb:

I was just wondering in terms of all of that whether there are any plans in terms of how you might structure, if you like, not conversations with individual parents but how parents collectively contribute. You have been talking about a lot of strategies and a lot of them sound very positive, but how collectively will parents know or be able to influence that and is there any plans to put any support in place to support parents to come together more, be able to have a collective voice and a consultative voice?

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

Do you want to talk about the family strategy in terms of our new business plan?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture: Yes, go ahead, you do that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Very briefly, please.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

Oh, sorry. Well, very briefly then, you have our new business plan and one of the 4 main strands other than business as usual is family and one of the actions within that is exactly that. We have already The Bridge. Patricia Tumelty is one of my team that manages The Bridge and she gives me an awful lot of really rich information around what our parents think and feel and the needs of that group. But as a structure, the action from that business plan is I have to put that forum in place.

Ms. J. Sevior:

Is there a time limit?

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: Yes, it is ...

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes, I think there are 2 things we can do. That is one, have a parent forum and it is in the plan and we will get there. That will be next year. You have to be careful with the makeup of the forum. I have to be careful how I say this, but if not careful you end up with pressure groups and agendas and axes to grind. What you need is parents who are informed, have gone through the system, good, bad or indifferent, but who can look across the system as a whole. I have made the mistake in the past of having reference groups which have become difficult to manage rather than ... the other thing that I think we ought to do more of, when we produce documentation for parents we ought to run it past that group or have parents help write it. It is very difficult for educationalists not to use jargon.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

We are committed to writing that parent version of the ordinarily available and Julian and the teams have put together parent pamphlets which we have given you copies of as well.

Principal Educational Psychologist: They were run through parents.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

Yes, they were run through parents. But also I meet with S.N.A.P. (Special Needs Advisory Panel), which is a parent group that hopefully you are aware of, which is an independent parent group where those mums have had special needs children of their own. They do represent the views of parents who may not feel confident enough to come and see me. I meet with them regularly and they bring issues to me and we work them through.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

The other thing we could look at - I have not discussed this with the team yet - you mentioned earlier the developments in the U.K. of the single plan. One of the, I think, most powerful ... that is powerful, I think we are tentatively ... we are quite close to having that there. One of the really powerful developments in the U.K. was the local offer. Parents found that really very empowering, especially when parents helped to pull that together. That is something we might need to look at here, a web-based system which is written for parents by parents about special educational needs provision available across the Island.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

What is interesting, though, with the paperwork for early help, the parent view and the child view is very heavily focused in on in our early help paperwork that across all departments is being ... we are training now for implementation from September.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think it is great that you have so much on the website and published material, but one of the things that we are hearing is that parents ... they are aware that the material is there sometimes. Sometimes they are not aware it is there, but they would really like a human contact, someone to give them a bit of support and compassion and explain these things to them. Is there scope to do a bit more of that?

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

Yes. Whenever a parent asks to see me I always say yes. It might take me a few days to get to them.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: Same with me.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture: If I am not around, either I or Cliff ...

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

The natural point of contact is obviously the school, but sometimes they wish to talk to someone from outside the school, and even in this last term Justin and I have seen at least half a dozen between us.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture: Several, yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Could you do something to reach out possibly to the parents? Because we are hearing a lot of parents that do not feel they can talk and ...

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

That is what this reference group I think will do. So you have parents talking to parents in the end. The problem is when parents make their way to my room it is usually because there is a problem. It is kind of the end of their tether and often it is over something very minor.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

We have established that group already for those group of children who are educated other than at school and there is a parent group there. I also helped set up a group for parents with those boys and girls with Tourette's because it was quite a small number and linked them to the parent group in the U.K. So where they do come and ask, we try and make sure there is support in place for that specific need. That is just 2 examples in the last year.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Do parents have to come looking? There is a fantastic little leaflet there about jelly clubs, baby massage, Brighter Futures, The Bridge, which is under nursery probably I would say. Do they have to come looking for that information?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Or how does it get to them?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

How do they get that lovely informative leaflet?

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

We put it all over the place. Referrals to The Bridge, for example, can be through the G.P., through the school. In other words, we try to make it as accessible as possible and unfortunately there may still be the odd parent we miss. But whenever the question is asked ...

Deputy J.A. Martin:

So when a child goes to immunisation, because now it is through the G.P.s and there is practically 99 per cent take-up of that, they will get one of these given to them at whatever age?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

I think it is part of the new sort of early years taskforce as well is the consideration as to how we can move paper, going back to the thing that Deputy Maçon has talked about.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Yes, that is my ... what is given at birth, what is given from the doctor and up to 2, and there is some fantastic information in there. I know it comes under your umbrella of education, sorry, but getting to the parents.

Director of Education, Sport and Culture:

We put information all over the place. I think we are really good at it, but the point is if parents are not picking it up and are not seeing it, that is our problem, not theirs. We need to find ... whether it is perception or reality, the fact is if parents are still telling us they do not know, then they do not know. So we are not getting it right.

Head of S.E.N.:

In some areas of need there are some really good examples of parent engagement and I CAN events that are held termly, so for hearing impairment, visual impairment, the teacher of the deaf, the teacher of the visually impaired works with the health colleagues, and they are getting 100 per cent take-up of Creepy Valley days, abseiling. So we have some really good examples of good practice.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Thank you very much.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support:

Justin, do you want to mention Dr. Helen Miles and her new role?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

We are going to have to stop now, I am afraid. We are very nearly at time. Sorry to cut you off. I just want to give the Minister just a minute or 2 if he wanted to add anything on the progress that has been made. We have seen some fantastic things. Is there anything we have not covered, anything that you want to share for the record to the public that you have done or that you are planning on doing?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

I am graced by a remarkable team, as you have probably already identified, and that goes all the way back through the schools. I was very much part of recognising that fact when I was Chair of Governors at Haute Vallée when Mont a l'Abbe sort of stepped closed and became a little sister to that school and how that progressed with Sharon Eddie. I think it is important that you know that this is part of the process that was started with the previous Administration, to be fair to them, and the sort of thing Cliff has been doing, but there is a new feeling now that we have a new opportunity. So I think we are on track. I think most of what you have discussed today hopefully is historic and that we have the right team doing the right things at the right time. So, thank you very much.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. Well, thank you and we are going to wrap up now. I think people want to get home. So, can I just thank you, Minister, once again and your team sincerely for your openness and the timeliness in which you have delivered documents to us. I understand there has been really good communication on both sides that has built throughout the process and we are really pleased, the panel is very pleased, how the process has gone. I acknowledge the extra work that your team has done and hopefully the review process will add value for the children, which is why we are all doing this.

Assistant Director, Inclusion and Family Support: That would be good.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Thank you.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So thank you for your time and your hard work, all of you.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Good. Thank you very much.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I will bring the meeting to a close. Thank you, everybody who attended.

[20:55]