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Health and Social Security Scrutiny Panel Zero Hours Contracts
THURSDAY, 5th NOVEMBER 2015
Panel:
Deputy R.J. Renouf of St. Ouen (Chairman) Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier (Vice Chairman) Deputy T.A. McDonald of St. Saviour
Witnesses:
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment Director, ASL Recruitment
[10:01]
Deputy R.J. Renouf of St. Ouen (Chairman):
This meeting room is set out in a rather formal way but please do not feel at all intimidated. We want you to feel at ease and help us in our review. The meeting, what we say, is being recorded for the purposes of receiving your evidence to help us in our review of zero hours contracts. Can I just say we normally just make an introduction? For the purposes of the record can I just ask you to introduce yourselves and then we will ask you some questions and see how the meeting flows, but we really want to hear from you and feel free to tell us exactly what you want. To start in the formal way I am Deputy Richard Renouf and I am Chairman of the Health and Social Security Scrutiny Panel and we are conducting a review into zero hours contracts at the moment.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
Can you tell us in general from your experience in the employment industry or employment world what is your view of zero hours contracts in Jersey?
Director, ASL Recruitment: Do you want to go first?
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Okay, we use zero hour contracts for our temporary work force and they have been around since 2005 essentially, these particular zero hour contracts, to fit in with employment legislation as it was at that time; a very positive experience. Primarily our sectors are finance, commercial, some retail, so I only have obviously experience that we have but it works really well. It is flexible working. The temp is employed by us on a zero hour contract and they are then on assignment with the clients that we might have. Those assignments can be part-time, full-time. They can be for ... we were talking just now about a 4-hour assignment or they can go on for months to cover particular projects. As you are obviously aware, zero hour contracts there is no statutory notice period. With assignments therefore they can start and stop at the person's request, the temp's request, or at the employer's request. But ordinarily both parties want to try and be fair and they give about a week's notice, so there is a lot more consideration going into them. I think it works very well.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Yes, we have temps that are 17 or 18 and we have temps that are 72. One of them is the tea lady in the States of Jersey. It happens to be my mother-in-law and without that zero hour contract keeping her with a little bit of pocket money coming in; she does not want permanent, she wants the flexibility. She has just lost her husband and it has been a lifeline for her. To say that she could not work there on a zero hour contract and have that ... she does not want the responsibility of knowing she has a permanent job. If one day she said ... take Tuesday she worked, we have not had the funeral yet and she was umming and ahing about whether she would work, you can do that on a zero hour. You have that flexibility and for her it is a really positive experience. My mum is 78 and on a zero hour contract again as lunchtime monitor, again positive experience, does not want to be permanent, likes to know that at the end of every term that she can hang up her shoes and say: "I have had enough." For them it works. At the other end of the spectrum for students maybe after A levels before they go away to university a lot of them come in and use that time to build up their experience and their knowledge. It hooks them back to the Island because they go off to university and they can come back every holidays and start working and then they have some experience to take to the table. That is used regularly. We have projects where we have companies that are just doing a promotion that want a few hours here or there but both parties enter into the arrangement with mutual respect and mutual agreement. We both would take a temp through what we call a starter pack about how they are paid and they are our employees if there are any issues. Where they are off sick they are reporting to us when they are out on assignment with the client. Some of the temp positions do go on a long time but that again both parties are very happy with that. A lot of the larger banks at the moment have some really big projects. It is no secret that the Barclays have a massive one at the moment with them selling their trust business. They have really big bespoke contracts that they are getting people in and they are given a budget to do the project but they cannot have them on the head count and a salary because it is all too complex because everything is run out of Canary Wharf or Canada or wherever, so it is much easier to put people through the agencies and have them on the zero hour. Again it is mutual on both sides. If the temps are not happy or they feel that they have been in the position too long they vote with their feet and they walk into another role.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
Can I ask in that sort of situation where a bank has a project on why would they not use a fixed term contract for a year, or whatever the length of the project?
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Unfortunately that is the difference, and I have not read all the detail around that but quite a lot, but one of the issues where I think zero hour contracts are really important is, say, banks or large international institutions have their own internal head count that might be directed from London perhaps, and they have a budget but they cannot increase the head count. If they are on a fixed term contract they are employed by the bank. If they are on zero hours contracts they are employed by us and they do not impact on the head count at all. You may be already aware of that but there are a lot of organisations here that have a set head count, not by the States of Jersey but by their own head office. They are not allowed to go over that. We had a situation a couple of years ago, for example, if one of the banks lost a person, say they resigned, they also lost a head count and they were not allowed to replace them. With the recession particularly that was quite a difficult area and it is still the case. They will get a budget for a project. They will be allowed X head count for that, they need more and they have the budget but not the head count so they will put them on a contract through the employment agency.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Very often that will give them a bit more notice on both sides because they do not want the candidate to walk halfway through putting in a new I.T. (information technology) platform or updating or changing data across the new A.M.L. (anti-money laundering).
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
That is the other thing is we have seen a good side of zero hour contracts. As I say, I cannot speak for all areas but I spoke to someone the other day about them and they were really shocked to hear that some of our clients give more holidays. They get the statutory holiday, then they get more holidays and they also build in some bonuses. There are a lot of other things that are brought into that agreement; not through the zero hour contract but through our assignment details. We have had a good experience with them. I was talking to the team yesterday trying to work out if we had ever had a complaint about them or if this is not fair or anything like, and I spoke to 2 temp controllers that covered about 6 years and not one. We are seeing a good side to it.
Director, ASL Recruitment: I would echo that.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
If they have head count issues, for example, they might be on a zero hour contract for quite a long period and then when the head count is freed up or available they then can go permanent. It can lead to a permanent role.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
Is it the case therefore that a lot of the employers are employing a core but all sorts of peripheral activities or projects as you say or other work they would not count as core are being conducted by workers on zero hour contracts?
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
I know there has been an increase but we are seeing, and I do not know if it is the same thing, through the recession the number of zero hour contracts definitely went up. We had a lot more temps. As we come out of the recession they are braver or more assured that the business is better so they are taking on fixed term contract and they are taking on a permanent basis but some of the projects are only about 3 to 4 months and those are ordinarily zero hour contracts. With the core business or those that they are fairly assured are around for a while they do go down the permanent route so they employ them. I come back to that head count issue with some of the large organisations, you are probably aware that some organisations have had a head count freeze for quite some time so that they can go on. That potentially could be core business but if they did not have the flexibility they just could not employ those people. They could not do that.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
A lot of these large organisations are union based and so having a recruitment freeze because they are going through a massive global restructure, the plug is pulled on all recruitment but then they still have to adhere to the new A.M.L. laws that have been rolled out with the J.F.S.C. (Jersey Financial Services Commission) by a certain deadline where every single client has to be phoned. You are talking of thousands of offshore clients having to be phoned and the F.A.T.C.A. (Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act) projects that are organised, that is a lot of work. It is a one off. Once it is done and they are up to date then that project does not exist, but once they have a head count freeze because they have had restructure there is a need to meet the regulated requirement in that and very often it is all zero hour contractors.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
Could you have somebody working on a zero hour contract alongside somebody else doing more or less the same job but not entitled to the benefits of the pension scheme perhaps or the sickness? What happens with sickness?
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Yes, it depends. Yes, you can definitely. There are some clients that we have ... some businesses their permanent people do not get ... there is no statutory requirement to give sickness pay so there are some businesses that do not give their permanent staff sickness and there are some businesses ... there are probably quite a number that do not have pension. It does not always work that way but yes, definitely. You may have someone on a zero hour contract who would be sitting next to someone doing similar sort of work. Their pay is usually the same. We do not see anyone ... they look at the market rate for that job and they split that up into an hourly rate. The pay is normally the same but if they equate in terms of experience ... yes, you could have a permanent person with additional benefits like maybe medical insurance for example which a temp would not have.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
Certainly you would not get any sick pay for a zero hours contract. If you are not there you are not there.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Zero hour contract, no. I see that.
Director, ASL Recruitment: Some do.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Yes, and they get their holiday. Some do.
Deputy G.P. Southern : Holidays are different.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Yes, sorry, there are some cases where ...
Director, ASL Recruitment: Long-term temps.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
... they have signed off on sick pay. Each business does treat temps a little bit different. Some have given sick pay but no, as a norm.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
You just used a phrase "long-term temps".
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Yes, they are more than about 6 ...
Director, ASL Recruitment:
The long-term temps with us they might go to one client for 3 months, come back on our books: "I would like another contract" and we put them out so they are our long-term temps but not necessarily always with the same client but there are some that are out 6 months, 8 months, 9 months, a year. A lot of companies do not like to keep them longer than a year but some do.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
But if they fall ill they are your employees, is it you that is paying the sick pay?
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: No.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
No. They get their sick cheque. They have obviously contributed to the social security system so they get their sick pay but then what happens is we had a lady in yesterday she has been temping for 6 months out of choice. She did not want the level of responsibility; she did not want knowing that she has to be with that firm for ever and signing up. She wanted the freedom of the temping and she took a week's holiday and obviously did not get paid because she has had it in her hourly rate and then she came to see me yesterday and she said: "I think I am ready to look for something permanent now." They make a choice. There is a lot of choice involved.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
Yes. I just want to come back to this head count. If, say, the banking sector are not including in their head count to the States of Jersey the temps you have placed with them but those temps are included in your head count, so you must have quite a large head count in the figures you submit to the Population Office.
[10:15]
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
We do, and I wondered about that because the head count that we have there is a lot probably triplicated because a temp will work for us for say a 6-month period or temp for us for a few months or a few weeks, temp for ASL, potentially temp for 3 or 4 other agencies. Wherever work is they may move around. When we put in our manpower return and then talk about people we have had in that month potentially there could be, I do not know where the figures you have come from, but there could be ...
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
I see. There could be an overlap.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Yes.
Director, ASL Recruitment: Yes.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Yes, quite significant.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
They potentially could skew the figures because a lot of these people that are on your lists are really in the banking sector but it is appearing under other, I think, or miscellaneous activities.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Yes, absolutely. That is why I wondered per head because I did have a look at the figures and thinking ... I wondered how that worked out because we can have ... we give someone a zero hour contract as an employee of ours for 2 or 3 years and then, as Tina said, they can come back from their holiday, their travels, students come back for the summer but then those same people will have a zero hour contract with other agencies. Whoever has the work at the time is who they will work through and it can overlap in a month because you can have ... we have cases where they do 3 days a week with one agency.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
We are always sending references for you and you are always sending references to us.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Yes, there is definitely a direct link between us.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
We are here today as 2 of us representing 2 agencies but obviously we have spoken to our counterparts who have temp desks and of course they know that we are here and they know what we are saying. There is nothing extra that the others would not say so we are not just doing it as the 2 of us. We have spoken to Excel, Tops and Park.
The Deputy of St. Ouen : Okay, thank you.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
But together we have probably the largest temp desks. What I would say as well is we get more temps walking out of a zero hour contract letting the client down than we have clients.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
I did have a look at that because I think whether we are just fortunate to see a good side of this I had a look at when assignments finish, how many times at very short notice, how many times it was the employer and how many times ... or the client company and how many times it was the temp. It is usually the temp simply because of personal circumstances. We had one quite recently. There was someone ill in hospital and they just had to go. There is that. Both parties are aware of it. You never get ... you get them a bit upset that they have been let down but you never get an issue with that.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
Talking about head count internally within an organisation how do these positions fit in with the control of housing work with the type of license and registered?
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Yes, we would hold the licence for the temporaries that are out on assignment.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
You have a certain number of licensed positions, the number registered ...
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: The type of registered, yes.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Of course if somebody is on maternity leave and they want to cover a maternity leave or somebody is off for long-term sickness we have those options within the Housing and Work Law to utilise.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
The agency holds the licence and that is from last year when they changed the policy.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Before with the old Reg. of Uns. we did not. It was with the place of work. Of course that ... we hold as the employer, by definition of who pays the payroll, who pays the salary, but the Regulation of Undertakings was with place of work. That has since changed with the new laws so we hold it. It is much tidier.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
Yes, I suppose that makes sense.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
Is it much more controlled?
Director, ASL Recruitment: Is there ... yes, we have to ...
Deputy G.P. Southern :
What sort of numbers are you talking about? Are we talking about you having a certain number of licenses, a certain number of entitled ...
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: We do not have licences.
Director, ASL Recruitment: There are no J-cats.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
We are not involved in that at all. It is registered people. Registered applicants, I will say licences - it gets confusing - but for registered a small number of licences , and then we have unlimited entitled
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Entitlement to work. Very often the client will ask and the States of Jersey being ... because both of us look after temporaries for the States of Jersey, and Social Security, for example, we have had people who have come across to the Island worked with Connections and all sorts of fantastic experience and they will not accept them on a zero hour contract even though we hold the licence. The client does ...
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: All trying to support the employment figures.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Of course they do not want people that might be in a temporary assignment. They bring them in to do a project and then who potentially could just say: "Jersey is not for me and I am back off." They do want somebody to stay the distance.
Deputy T.A. McDonald:
I must admit it has been an eye opener speaking to you or listening to you. You are the first witnesses, I will use that expression, who have mentioned age concerning zero hours contracts. Obviously as a panel our duty is to be impartial. We are looking for the good. We are looking for the bad, any abuse and so forth but when I hear you talking there about people at 72, 78 that is the first mention that we have had. I am looking at that as being very much a plus for those people.
Director, ASL Recruitment: Totally.
Deputy T.A. McDonald:
Obviously we are only talking about presumably a very small percentage in those instances.
Director, ASL Recruitment: Yes, who still want to work.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
It is interesting because we get this. Some of the organisations have great people in place but have a policy where, say, they might reach 65 and it is a blanket policy, they then have the option - and they have done it - they have come to one of the agencies and said: "We really want to keep this person. They want to stay", so then they do go on zero hours contract but it works. They are still in their place of employment but they have a lot more flexibility. It is a bit like your mum-in-law if they feel it is too much they can say: "Okay, I will carry on but I will work these hours", and if they say: "I need a few days off" they can do that as well. I have not thought of it like that but that is quite a positive.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
If we are at the social security payments ... I do a lot of careers advice round the schools and I say to them: "Guys, you are going to be working until you are about 73, 74, stay in education", but there is a disparity between the retirement age and some organisations and how long people want to work in order to pay the social security contributions. I know I have some horrendous age I have to work to pay my ...
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
That is because you are young. [Laughter]
Director, ASL Recruitment:
But there is something that ... there is a little gap there but the zero hour contract definitely works for that. I had a young lady that ... because we looked at the online survey which prompted the conversation with yourself.
The Deputy of St. Ouen : Thank you.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
We did not feel we could fill it in given the narrowness of some of the answers and we felt that maybe we were not meant to put anything that was ... because there were so many people temping and there are so many different experiences that it was really difficult to answer but I then did ask some of our temps to fill it in. One lady in particular who has been temping, she is in her 20s, about 26, and she has been temping since she was 18 out of choice but that is a long-term temp that we would have on our books but she comes and goes. She goes travelling, she does dance school, she does a lot of charity work but without the zero hour contract she could not live the chosen lifestyle that she has chosen. She has sent me an email and I am happy to send you a quote saying that she tried to fill that in and again but felt that for her it did not fit because yes, she has been temping an inordinate amount of time and I have offered her permanent work but she keeps refusing because she is doing it through choice.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
She did feel it was a little bit ... she found it difficult to say it was a positive experience and I actually had one who ... we sent it to all the temps. I do not know how many filled it in. I do not know what your ...
Director, ASL Recruitment: We sent it out as well.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
But one ... a similar thing, just said she found it hard to be fair. I do not have any more detail than that but that was her response but I do not know how many you have back.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
Okay, we will bear it in mind. I think we had 264 responses from employees.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Good, fantastic. That is really good. That is excellent.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
Yes, that was excellent. We were pleased with that.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Yes.
Deputy T.A. McDonald:
We do try everything and every method.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
That is why we wanted to weigh it up because we were going to just do ... I said to Jeralie: "We must fill it in", if you are doing consultation and Jeralie is on the Employment Forum as I was before her. I have been on the Skills Board so I know what it is like.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: You need as much information as you can get.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
You need it because when you make a judgment and then the public are up in arms but then you have gone out to ask for consultation and it is not forthcoming then there is nobody else to blame but themselves.
Deputy T.A. McDonald:
Can I just ask which sector do you think that you hold most positions in?
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Finance and there is a reason for that and it is the cost element. We are helping at the moment J.E.T. (Jersey Employment Trust). I am helping them with somebody who is going out on a zero hour contract with people with disabilities and that works for that sector as well. In the old days we did a lot with Workwise and things. If they can just take that tentative step going: "I will look for temp work but if it does not work out I can go back into the comfort of the life I had before." Sometimes if they take that big leap then it is a big scary place so it is a nice way to put ...
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Some use it for experience as well. Say F.A.T.C.A., for example, some of the people are very keen to do that because that gave them experience to perhaps do other things on a permanent basis.
Director, ASL Recruitment: Mum returners as well.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Yes. What I have noticed is, I was just saying to Tina before, we are getting a lot more smaller commercial businesses using us for any short-term temp roles, and I do not know this but I think potentially the more legislation that comes in the more they do not have an H.R. (Human Resources) Department. They find that a little bit tricky but yes, primarily the financial services.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Yes, there is cost involved and obviously we are not charities. We are a commercial business.
The Deputy of St. Ouen : No, he will have to.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
That is because you do have the States and then they really ... [Laughter]
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
Yes, tell me about the States. You place temps with States departments? I think you do, do you not?
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Yes, we have done this since 1999 and you have done it since ...
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: We have done it for a long time, about 6 years.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Yes, and we have a partnership on that.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
Who are your biggest customers among the States departments?
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Social Security has been more recently just because of the huge influx ... obviously the recession came with no warning whatsoever. They had just put the income support mechanism in place and then a tsunami of people knocking on the door especially a lot of youngsters and so there was a lot of almighty ... but that has petered off now because a lot of those people have gone permanent. Work place advisers, the Back to Work team, it is becoming much more permanent. It has been seen as really valuable.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
Yes. You place those people as temps, did you?
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Yes. The States of Jersey are one of the biggest employees and with all the will in the world you are going to have people on maternity, you are going to have people off with illness, you are going to have a massive meeting that is happening and you need to take minutes at the meeting, you are going to have archives up at Overdale that definitely needs sorting out and nobody is spare to do it so there are always legitimate ... and Jeralie and I are both members of J.E.N.D. (Jersey Employer Network on Disability) for a period of time and still on the committee. Some of the bookings that come in you do say: "Have you considered phoning Workwise or J.E.N.D. or J.E.T.?" or whatever. It is not just about they just get a temp for the heck of it.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
Do they get a temp in order to avoid the restriction on their work force?
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: I do not know, you will have to ask them.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
Just in the way of private companies saying: "These are ..."
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Yes. The thing is especially with the new unfair dismissal ... basically you take someone on now and with the 12 month unfair dismissal it is not like you are tied in to any ... it is kind of permanent, temporary, fixed-term contract have all their own ways of working but I do not think that is why they take temps on at all. I think they are really unsure about how long this is going to last. Even with the Social Security for example. Okay it has gone on probably more years than anyone expected but there was ... we did a lot of work with the job advisers, employment advisers because they needed to get the initiatives underway and people back out to the workplace. They really did not know when I spoke to them whether that was going to be a year or much, much longer. They have a great H.R. Department and I would not have thought that they would be using it to avoid ...
Deputy G.P. Southern :
We have come to the bit that always gets me which is zero hours contracts are not binding. Both sides can say: "There is no work tomorrow" or: "I am not going to be in tomorrow." That is the essence of zero hours.
Director, ASL Recruitment: It is mutual, yes.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
Mutual, and it seems to me that where if possible ... but that excludes you from some of the benefits. You could be working next door to somebody who is getting a pension paid.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Yes, but you cannot have your cake and eat it. You cannot have the mutual: "I do not want to work tomorrow" and then expect a pension.
No, but the jobs they are being placed in are 9.00 to 5.00 and: "We expect you in tomorrow and you are doing a 5-day week that could last 6 months." That to me sounds like do a bit of brainpower and that is a temporary contract: "We will give you 6 months and we will see after 6 months where we are in another 6 months." It seems to me that what is happening more and more is people are not bothering with that which comes with a package of benefits. They are resorting to zero hour contracts for a job that is not really zero hours. It is using what ...
[10:30]
Director, ASL Recruitment:
The temp will just vote with their feet. My niece worked in a nursery school on a zero hour contract and the lady was very: "You can work this week. No, you cannot next week", so the kid did not know whether she had money coming in or not. The mutual for her was right, the zero hour contract was exactly as it was supposed to be so she went off and got herself a permanent nanny job. She just voted with her feet then she went back and said: "I would like to come back on zero hours just to do the odd days when I am not needed." The lady said: "No, I need to know that you are accessible whenever we want. Yes, we would love you but I need you to be accessible." She said no and the woman lost a good member of staff. In the current market where we have jobs we cannot fill. We have vacancies that with all the will in the world we cannot fill them.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: I would say ...
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Yes, both of us. While waiting to recruit somebody full-time they will take somebody to do half the job or just to keep it ticking over. Temps are used for that definitely. The market now is different from the beginning of the recession where you went in somewhere and you worked and you were like: "God, I am on a zero, do not want to be but it is the only work that is out there." That has passed. That is passed now I would say.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Yes, I understand what you are saying as well but you say pension does not come until the end of probation. Probation can be between 3 and 6 months. When it sets off like that then clearly no one has the pension in that first 6 months but it is a surprising number of businesses that do not offer a pension. Sickness is interesting because there are ...
Deputy G.P. Southern : The States does.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Sorry, if you are talking about States specifically?
Deputy G.P. Southern : We were on to the States.
Director, ASL Recruitment: Sorry.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
It is still a pension but it is not qualified until 2 years' of service because of cost implication of the pension scheme. Yes, you are right they would sitting next to someone with ... but no one has ever ... of all the temps we have had no one has ever come to us and said: "This is not fair. I do not get a pension or I am sitting next to someone who does." I don't know what ... obviously because I am not but that is our experience. No one ... and we go through the whole contract. We used to have this with a lot of J-cats years ago where they used to get really upset because the bank would bring in a J-cat person who had their housing paid, their education paid in this bank. The person next to them doing exactly the same job as a local and therefore did not have their school fees paid and everything and that was always slightly ...
Director, ASL Recruitment: It was more ...
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Yes, exactly. There was that issue which I know one particular organisation then brought in a housing allowance and just paid the cash amount for everyone but then you need a fairly good budget for that. That will happen but it has not ever been an issue.
Director, ASL Recruitment: Not about pensions.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
No, not about any other. I have not had anything. With sickness some organisations want to pay sickness. It is not something ... I do not think the States pay it, not that I am aware of, anyway but some organisations for their temps if they are doing a great job and they want to pay sickness they
will. Some other companies who have permanent people do not pay sickness. There is a little bit of a difference there and they get the rolled up holiday pay as you are aware. In some cases that is actually doubled because they want to give them more holidays. There is a little bit of movement around how the zero hour assignment might work.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
I think as well for the States of Jersey when we have a vacancy, a temporary vacancy, we are never short really of candidates who like to go into the States because then they have the access to the intranet and the permanent roles and then they feel that once they are in there they might get something permanent. It is a job for life and all that kind of thing. That has always been a way with the States. Obviously things are changing now.
Deputy T.A. McDonald: Probably perception.
Director, ASL Recruitment: Yes.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Perception, yes.
Deputy T.A. McDonald:
Can I just take you back? Which or what are the jobs that you struggle to fill?
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Okay, fund accountant, trust admin, compliance.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Good graduates.
Director, ASL Recruitment: Really good graduates.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Trainees is another one. That is a quite sort of specialist finance role.
Deputy T.A. McDonald: Yes.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Although, having said that, a bookkeeper. It is amazing how difficult it is to find a bookkeeper. That can be commercial. It is just ... the problem that we have always had is the finite pool of people and skills fitting now is a ...
Director, ASL Recruitment:
I.T. is another area as well that is going through a bit of a squeeze because it is so fast moving. It is frightening how fast that moves.
Deputy T.A. McDonald: Yes, that is true.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Really what we wanted to do is to come in and say today that ... I know you are putting out to consultation but the experiences we have with the zero hour contracts, mutually from both sides, and I have a number of temps that they choose to work in that manner. Once they appreciate that they can go in and be doing ... sitting alongside somebody even in a maternity cover, covering somebody else's job they are not getting the same benefits but they do go in there with that knowledge and they sign up and are happy to it. If they did not want to then there is a choice they do not have to take the role. There is no forcing. Sometimes we have put 2 or 3 people forward for a vacancy. We have a young lad going into one of the banks this week. He is off and he has won some bursary in Malaysia or something, now he needs to get some money together and he is one of 3 people going into be interviewed so they are going to choose which one they want. There is not ... it is not anything forced or people are taking things because they feel they have no other option. We are not experiencing that.
Deputy T.A. McDonald: That is very important.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Yes, and that is honest. That is not just because that is the way we are but we get people that are temping and then they choose not to, and they love temping while they are looking for something permanent because temping is more immediate. If you are looking for something permanent and suddenly you have been made redundant they are like: "I would just like to temp for a while and see what I am going to do with myself." They do go into these jobs with their eyes open and we sit and go through the whole contract if there is no maternity ... or there is maternity now but there is no pension.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
You were talking about the changing job market and saying that this has affected the zero ... the temps and zero hours contracts, in what way? Can you just be clear about the way the market ...
Director, ASL Recruitment:
We have temp vacancies we cannot fill. Somebody looks for a fund accountant, somebody wants somebody to do an I.T. platform, the A.M.L., the F.A.T.C.A. project but the people just are not out there with that skills and experience. The regulator needs this project done and carried out within the guidelines of the regulations and those people just are not available.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
It was a surprise to me to see the number of zero hour contracts had gone up, and I do not think that is happening in the sectors that we work in because it went up through the recession, which is a normal thing to happen, but definitely they are trying to reduce using ... rightly or wrongly using a temp is not a cheap option either. They would rather bring them on a permanent basis if they need them on a permanent basis and they are more confident so they are happy to commit to a permanent arrangement with someone. I was really surprised to see that they went up. Potentially if you were looking at the sectors that we worked with and specifically I would be surprised if there was an increase.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
That is interesting because it is also going up in the U.K. (United Kingdom) as well.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Right, those are particular sectors then?
Director, ASL Recruitment:
We have not been able to drill down into the figures. We will try and see if that is possible.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Yes.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
I think that smaller companies who are wanting to grow ... us as agencies during the recession we all sort of downsized a lot of us. Nobody closed which was interesting but we all did downsized. We downsized by about 3 or 4, and as we started to pick things up we have taken people into temp to do maybe back office admin to release people to do more and in particular if the work is there then you can take that commitment. It is an expensive thing to lay somebody off and you are really honest with them and everybody enters into it with their eyes open.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
Do you have any experience of the retail or hospitality or other industries?
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Hospitality, no, not really. I have never done anything there. It has always been the office. It has always been permanent really in the offices so accountants and so forth. It is commercial. We are doing more commercial recently but that might be if we have someone covering, it is usually either sickness or something like it is ... it is not projects or anything like that on the temp basis. Most of our work there is permanent. We do not deal with obviously construction, agriculture, hospitality really.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Grafters do, so they might be worth ...
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
They might be worth having a check with. I do not know, obviously construction is quite a good industry, growth industry so perhaps there is more.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
It might be there that the growth is occurring.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Yes, there might be more there. We would definitely say that people are reducing the number of zero hour contracts so it will be interesting to see where the increases are.
The Deputy of St. Ouen : Okay, that is interesting.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Also bear in mind that that duplication because if say ... well, Grafters are a little bit different but say you had 2 agencies in the same industry that person is with both and potentially going to be temping with both they will have 2 zero hour contracts. That is one person with 2.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
The thing with the students is they tend to move around.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
Yes, that is right and in your case I think you have mentioned before that somebody might work for you as a temp for 3 days a week but they might be with the other for 2 days a week. That is allowed under your contracts, is it?
Director, ASL Recruitment: Just like having 2 jobs.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Yes, so they will be our zero hour employee and they would be ... if it was ASL it would ASL so they would appear ... definitely appear twice.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
They would leave one of your bookings and come ...
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Yes, I know.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
In the survey we conducted about 17 per cent of respondents said that they are not permitted under their zero hour contracts to work for another employer. Are you aware of employers who might impose that sort of restriction?
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
That is interesting because I saw an article in the U.K. about one of the ... a big retailer but I think they refuted that and said that it was incorrect. All the zero hour contracts we got together as an industry to share the legal bills and the zero hour contract we use is pretty uniform across all the other agencies and there is no tie-in at all. They can work for their neighbour, they can work for any other agency. There is ... I am not aware of any ...
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
But those are the contracts that you use. Do you place people with employers as direct employees on zero hour contracts?
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: No.
Director, ASL Recruitment: No.
The Deputy of St. Ouen : No, you do not?
Director, ASL Recruitment:
They would be fixed term contracts and that would not be through us.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: No.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
I have a situation at the moment where 2 people have gone in to do a project and it has an end date at the end of the year and one of the candidates who is on the temporary contract has decided he is going to go travelling in Portugal because his wife has just been made redundant and they are off, he has given them ... so she is only going to have the one and not the other one, so what they are thinking now is: "Crikey, we do not want to lose the other guy" so they are going to bring him in and put him on a fixed-term contract and give him the benefits for that period of time. Then she wants to take somebody else in for a fixed term so that the company have the security of knowing that project will get finished.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: That is their employee, that is not ...
Director, ASL Recruitment: That is their employee.
The Deputy of St. Ouen : No, I understand.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
I think the other thing that is worth pointing is obviously in the 1990s, when we had the last recession, obviously it had been a lot shorter and zero hours were not in, but there was a distinct ... the perm desk went down and the temp desk definitely went up. As the market picked up, it switched around, so that is a pattern that we have seen before, which we have seen ...
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Yes, so it would be really interesting if it was possible to drill down to those figures and also see where the sectors are - but also if they are duplicated, because that is a thing I did wonder about, on where they came from - if there is a chance of that, because I know some temps we have got that are with 5 or 6 agencies, so if they found them work, they could potentially, in a month or 2 months, work for 5 different organisations.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
If they are getting counted 5 or 6 times, there is something wrong with the stats.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Yes, that is right. I do not know how that works. We put in our report obviously that ASL and others do as well, so I am just not sure how ... I do not know where that comes from, so it may not be an issue, but it might be where ...
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Even just in the States M.I. (management information), because we have to submit very, very intricate M.I.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: But that is just for the States.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Yes, but that can be duplicated as well.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Yes, that is right, exactly.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
You submit additional information to the States, do you?
Director, ASL Recruitment: Yes.
The Deputy of St. Ouen : What are you asked? Director, ASL Recruitment: Hours and hours.
The Deputy of St. Ouen : Oh dear.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Just all about the assignments, how long they are, the pay rate, the department, so they can monitor what departments are using what number of temps quite easily. We have separate M.I. for that.
The Deputy of St. Ouen : Oh, right. Okay.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: So they monitor it quite closely.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Then the agencies as well, there are some companies that when they have taken some people in ... we have got P.I. (public indemnity) insurance, we have got public liability insurance, we have got cyber insurance. There is a huge cost to running a temp desk and that is why most of them are financial services that ... because we have to have things in place that meet with their risk and compliance.
Deputy T.A. McDonald:
Criteria and vetting and risk assessments.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
That is right. The pre-screening, the days in ...
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Before our time, obviously.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Yes: "Can you type? Can you use display?" or whatever and off you go. Now it is all screened, everybody has got to pass the screening process.
Deputy T.A. McDonald:
Yes, and quite stringent, depending on obviously ...
Director, ASL Recruitment:
But we have got happy temps. I have to be honest and say that we have got temps that come back time and time again and then the students, they temp, and then we place them permanently.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
If there is a permanent job. One of the things people do like with temping is that they are onsite, if you hear things - like the intranet you were talking about - but if there is a permanent job they are considered for that. It is not like they are a temp always. If there is a possibility of a permanent role and they want to stay, then they are offered a permanent role. A lot of our temps go into permanent. They see it, if they are looking for work, they are almost better off temping with that possibility than just applying for jobs and being at home. That is why some will go in at a lower level or will be happy to take whatever that market rate is.
Director, ASL Recruitment: Gain the experience.
[10:45]
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Even though they may be a bit more experienced and bit more senior, in the hope if something comes up and the person has their C.V. (curriculum vitae), they will be considered for that.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
It is more immediate. We pay weekly, whereas if somebody is looking for a permanent job ...
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Yes, they like weekly.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
... they are not sure what they want to do, temping is a way of keeping money coming in while they weigh up their options. But then sometimes they will say to us: "Look, we are waiting for sign-off on this role" because some of these companies, they take 2 months to get sign-off, 2 to 3 months to get sign-off on a vacancy and budget and get the job description, because of the internal ... because everything has gone back to central control.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
Yes, so they start the job on a temporary role in that case.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Yes, waiting for it. But the candidate goes in with that in mind, but obviously a lot of our candidates are marked temp and perm, because they are looking for temp while waiting for the right permanent.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Yes, some of the screening can take a couple of months, so if they are not working, they have got to sit at home, or if they can temp somewhere else for that 2 months. Not all of them, but some employers will say: "Okay, if you can get the basic screening done, we can bring them in." They can temp and then as soon as the sign-off is received, they then go on a permanent basis. That does not work when they are working, if they are permanent and they go, obviously, but if they are not working and they want to work, then they want to try. They do not want to lose them, obviously, so they do not want them to sit at home for 2 months waiting for their job to start. That is another way that they lose them.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
Would you say that most of your clients are looking for permanent work?
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: No, no.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
No. You have got a bunch of people who are quite happy ...
Director, ASL Recruitment: Always.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Yes.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
... to be placed in and out of work, temporary jobs?
Director, ASL Recruitment: For a variety of reasons, yes.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: We have got a ...
Deputy G.P. Southern :
In the majority of your clientele?
Director, ASL Recruitment: 70:30, I suppose.
[Comment from witness: 70:30 is a measurement of the number of temps that are ideally looking for permanent, not a figure representing satisfied clients.]
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
We have got 5 permanent consultants and 2 on the temp, so it is not the majority of people we have.
Director, ASL Recruitment: Oh no, on the temp side, sorry.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
But on the actual temp database, gosh, I would say ...
Director, ASL Recruitment:
We have got the same ratio of perm consultants to temp.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Yes. I would say probably ... oh gosh, probably I should count that up, should I not, really? But I would guess about 60 per cent want temp, stay temp. But a lot of those will be people that are travelling and they come back, earn some more money and go travelling again, who definitely do not want permanent, and a lot of those will be people who are university students.
Deputy G.P. Southern : Students is one thing.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Yes, exactly. Okay, people that are travelling, people who have other ... we have got people who are yoga teaching in Asia and so on, so they come back and earn some money, go out there for another 6 months.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Redundancy, maybe a lot of people look at temp.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
On a conservative estimate, I would say probably at least half of them are temporary only.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Yes, pure temp. They evolve all the time. We are not talking the same people all year.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Gosh, no. Yes.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
I mean, your payroll every week is churning. As I say, we would love more, because obviously you put 10 in and then you lose 20, so it is never the same, very rarely it is the same.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
But even though they might not be the majority, do you have temps who are concerned about the uncertainty of their position and the fact they are not guaranteed and they have got families to feed, they cannot keep up the mortgage and such things?
Director, ASL Recruitment:
They cannot get a mortgage if they are on zero hours.
The Deputy of St. Ouen : Or get a mortgage.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Yes, there are people, definitely. The other half, the other 40 per cent are definitely wanting permanent work. I think they see it as a positive, being able to work while they are looking.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
It is easier to find a job when they are in employment.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
They do not necessarily want that job. They want something, they have got specific criteria. So you will see people all the time. In fact, I had an email last night where they were saying: "Oh, happy here for now, but if this comes up, let me know." In terms of the mortgage it is an issue, because if you are buying a house and you are on a on zero hour contract - we have both had cases, I am sure, where people have got mortgages - but we have had to put a letter together saying that these skills are such that they are always in demand and so on, but that is very much a minority, only sort of one or 2. We do not get many saying that they were trying to get a mortgage, so they are not actively looking while they are temping, but I have no doubt that once they have got into a permanent job, that is what they would do. So that is an issue, and obviously if you want permanent work, a temp job will not do. That is not a long-term fix, so it is literally just while they are looking for permanent work. The good thing is that the permanent market has definitely picked up, so there are less people stuck in temp assignments that do not want them, because there is more permanent work coming up. But it has got to be the right salary, right level, right company, so there is a lot to look at on a permanent basis.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
Okay, so generally in the sectors you work with, the picture is upbeat?
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Yes. As I say, it is not a negative picture. The true positive picture is that anyone who wants a permanent job can get one, and it is not like that at all, people are definitely trying to get permanent work, but that is the way the market is and the upbeat bit of that is that it is a better market than it was 18 months ago. Yes, I am sure there are definitely people that are temping that are looking for and want a permanent job and we are trying to get them one. They are not being left and forgotten about, they have 2 consultants, they have a temporary consultant to help them while they are on the temporary side and they have a permanent consultant to help them get permanent work.
The Deputy of St. Ouen : Oh, I see.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Yes, and if we do not, say if somebody is temping and we leave them ticking away, temping in a role ...
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: They will be gone.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
... they did not like, they would just walk into Rowlands or one of the others and register for perm and I think we would lose them anyway, so it is in our interest if they are temping and looking for permanent. We are in a commercial business. If we place them in temping we make money; if we place them on a permanent, there is a fee. It is like the estate agents, if they are renting a property, then they sell it, it is a win win.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: No reason not to sell it.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
We all want the same thing. The candidate is looking for something either temp or perm, we do not make any money unless we place them and the client is looking to fill a role, so we are all on the same target.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
They then become our client, so we want them to be happy with how it ...
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
Of course, yes, you have got a valuable role.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Yes. But the mortgage issue is definitely one. We do not hear it that often because I think they potentially put that on ...
Director, ASL Recruitment:
That is not a zero-hour thing though, is it? That is just whenever they have been temping, before the zero hour contract.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Oh, yes.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
That is not a zero-hour implication, that is just ...
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: That is not having permanent.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
... temporary work, not having permanent work, would implicate the mortgage.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
In an ideal world, you would want everyone to have the permanent job that they are looking for, but it is just there is a lot more to the right permanent job, is there not, than a temporary job that you are going to do for a couple of months?
The Deputy of St. Ouen : Yes.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
The young girl I just described, 18 to 26, had been temping and offered a permanent. She is off to Malaysia next to help at a charity, but then she is coming back next February and she wants to put herself back on the books.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
We have mentioned age before, but that 18 to 30 group, is that your market?
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: No, I do not think it is.
Director, ASL Recruitment: It is really spread.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: It is very broad, yes.
Deputy G.P. Southern : Across the spectrum? Okay.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Very broad, yes.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
There is a lot of people who have been made redundant. Some in financial services, they have had very nice packages, they have been there a very long time, they have a pension and they go: "Oh, do you know what, I have hated that job for years. I want to do something completely different. I want to help people, I want to put something back into society" so they temp, using the skills, but they do not want to go back and do it permanently while they retrain or look for something different. That has been a definite change, due to the market that we are in. Would you agree with that?
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Yes, definitely. I had one lady who wanted the flexibility. Her daughter was having a baby and she wanted some time off, and the company that she was working in at the time - she was our temp - said: "No, people are on holiday" and she just left, which is exactly what it is all about. She said: "This is too important. I am temping. I wanted flexibility. I am not tied in" and she just left. So that is a zero hour contract; that is how it should work. There was no issue on either side, but just that is the difference. In a permanent job, you could not do that, there will be periods that you cannot take a holiday. We have got a lot more senior people and the permanent job they are looking for might be senior manager, director level, but there are, by the pure nature of the industry, fewer of those around, so they look for temporary contracts that might upskill them, say I.T. or whether it is finance, they work in a compliance monitoring role and just upskill their C.V. So there are many different reasons why they do it, and also that makes the age range very broad.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
When companies merge or they are being acquired, it is like a triangle, the top of the tree can get a bit crowded, so that is where they sort of tip out a very senior manager, very senior people, but then the bottom is where the skills gap is and that was there before the recession. But we have got people on the files and we have got vacancies, but it is very difficult to match them all. It would be great if you could. The skills gap that was around that the Skills Board was borne out of, that was then railroaded by the recession, so all that still existed.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
Yes, thank you for your explanation. Can I just ask though, in terms of what the States of Jersey do or should be doing in the employment world, do you think the States should be intervening more, educating employers or employees or what role should it be doing differently?
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: On legislation or on the employment?
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
Well, can I ask, do you think there should be any changes to employment legislation?
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
I think what is happening now is a positive thing with bringing in discrimination, the various attributes, and I think that is incredibly important. There will always be or have always been the small minority that unfortunately do not adhere to that and I am sure everyone knows companies that still do not issue statements of terms, so all the way back to that. I think there is a lot of good progress being made. In terms of legislation, no, I think they are on it and trying to bring Jersey certainly into the correct area in terms of all the sorts of legislation that should be about, with the proviso that jobs are really important at the moment, we need to get people back into work, so you need to make sure that the States are not limiting that. I will get on my soapbox shortly, but my view is it all starts at school, school trainees. There are so many organisations out there that are really keen to get involved in this and I think there needs to be something very big in terms of addressing G.C.S.E. (General Certificate of Secondary Education), A.S. (Advanced Subsidiary), A Level students and then the graduates that are going off, coming back. But treating it completely differently from a very commercial perspective ...
Director, ASL Recruitment:
A whole strategy, skills and career strategy.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
I was talking to an A.S. Level student and I said: "Do you understand why the grades are so important?" Their plan was to go into a big 4 accounting firm at some point and they did not realise commercially where they would stand with As, Bs and Cs as opposed to where they would stand with, say, a D in maths or something like that. So it is almost taking a very commercial approach and getting the businesses involved. They are very keen. The finance sector are extremely pro going into the schools, bringing students in for work experience. We could start training them very early on if those sectors were of interest to them.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Each school has a half a teacher's budget for careers - and the Head of Careers now I think has retired or retiring - and has no control over the careers teachers at the school, it is only a mutual agreement. Each school, as long as they have a library and have access and there are certain tick boxes that they do, that is all that they are adhered to do, so there is no over-arching strategy for every student in the schools. For me, from a commercial viewpoint, if that budget went back into a central pot and you had somebody that headed up skills and careers, a commercial person - the current Chair of the Skills Board would be somebody that would pop into my head as a great candidate for that - and then they would use all the careers budget, but you would get sponsorship from hospitality, you would get loads of sponsorship from different people that would sign up and then they could roll out a proper fit for purpose skills and careers strategy. Some of these youngsters, I had one when I was up at Vic College last week: "I want to be a vet." "Oh, have you ever put your hand up the backside of a cow?" "No." "Well, how do you know you want to be a vet?" So none of those questions or challenges are asked, then they go off to university, do a degree, meet a girlfriend who then cannot come back here and work, even though she has got a 1st in physics and would be an absolute ...
The Deputy of St. Ouen : I know.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
... asset to the Island, but that is a different story.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
We are going to share what you say with the Education Panel and see if they want to investigate.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
I am reminded of 20 years ago we had a strategy in careers, because I was the careers teacher.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Oh, really?
Director, ASL Recruitment:
For the school, was it not, rather than the Island?
Deputy G.P. Southern :
For the school, yes, and we also trained. We were trained to do that specialism. That does not happen anymore.
Director, ASL Recruitment: That has changed a lot now.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Yes, that is interesting, is it not, because we see a lot of school leavers, and it is an area that we absolutely love, because you can help them so much through that first career stage, but what is amazing is they come out of school and they do not understand how to interview and how important some of the basics are, so that perhaps needs to be reintroduced maybe. I think we have a lot of volunteers, a lot of commercial people that would be very interested.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
But the agencies themselves have got a role to play. Social Security hold our licences.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
Yes, okay. Deputy McDonald would like to ask a question.
Deputy T.A. McDonald:
We are coming up to 11.00 a.m., but thank you very much for mentioning Grafters, because we had overlooked those, I am sure.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Yes, and they are the right industry.
Deputy T.A. McDonald: Exactly.
[11:00]
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Also is it Jersey Recruitment?
Deputy T.A. McDonald:
That is just what I was going to ask you.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
And Manual Solutions, I think there is another one.
Deputy T.A. McDonald:
Manual Solutions. That is a different business to Grafters.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Totally different, and we would not want to sit here and say how that would work unless we have the knowledge.
Deputy T.A. McDonald:
No, because again we are trying to cover as much ground as we can, be as impartial as we can and so on. But what was the other one, Manual Solutions?
Director, ASL Recruitment:
I think the nursing industry as well, I do not know.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Jersey Recruitment.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Yes. I do not know who does the recruitment for the nursing homes, the nursing staff and stuff like that. I do not know.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
We have spoken with at least the hospital recruits on another review.
Director, ASL Recruitment: Yes, bank staff.
The Deputy of St. Ouen : Yes, that is right.
Deputy T.A. McDonald:
But apart from that, before you depart, is there anything you really want us to know or anything you feel that we should know?
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: I think we have covered the main ...
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Yes. I just wanted to get the positive side of where it works, where zero contracts work. I think it maybe it is because the agencies are involved and so therefore people come to us for employment. It is not somebody going: "Look, I will give you a job. It will be a zero hour" and then 3 years later they are still doing it. Because if we do not look after the candidate, they will walk; if we do not look after the client, they will walk. We are all on the same goal. I think that is what we wanted to say about ...
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
I think perhaps although there are a lot of ... through legislation, people on zero hour contracts are being better looked after than potentially they were a few years ago, like with maternity and family friendly, that sort of thing. The benefits is an issue, but there are organisations that choose to do what they do for their particular temps. But my thoughts are that you can end up with a permanent contract with an organisation and still not get those benefits.
Deputy G.P. Southern : Indeed.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Yes. So in a way, if you are looking at that, it is probably more general, is it not?
Deputy G.P. Southern :
I presume you are aware of the guidelines published by J.A.C.S. (Jersey Advisory and Conciliatory Service) on correct use of zero hours contracts? Do you have ...
Director, ASL Recruitment:
We work very closely with J.A.C.S.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
... a comment to make on the guidelines? Do you think your clients are aware of the guidelines?
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Yes, absolutely.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
The clients - clients as in the companies - they come to us asking to use a temporary on a zero hour contract. We are fully aware ... we helped do the zero hour contract. Patricia worked at ASL for years before joining J.A.C.S., so we both know and we educate the clients, so if the client phones up and says: "I would like a girl aged such and such" we put them right on legislation. That is our role, to make sure things are done ...
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: But they are very aware ...
Director, ASL Recruitment: Yes, very aware.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
... of those guidelines, and equally, their temp is because we spend quite a lot of time in an office with them going through the contract, also a type of crib sheet that pulls out the most important things and it says what they are eligible for and what they are not, and particular emphasis on the zero-hour bit, so they are fully aware before they sign up. So that J.A.C.S. guideline was quite an easy read, because it is very well ...
Director, ASL Recruitment: It is very well put together.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
There are some who would say that the only truly zero hours contract is one where there is absolutely no obligation for anybody to turn up to work on either the employer or the employee. If they do not turn up tomorrow, then fine, it is all right, it does not disturb you. I do not think that that is the case with many jobs. If the employee does not turn up tomorrow ...
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: You are right, yes.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
... the employer goes: "Yes, I did need you here."
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
Yes, that is right. The only thing I would say is personally we could not run like that; I do not know any business that could. Certainly if they ring and say: "I am not coming in today" you tell the person and that is the end of it. If they said: "I am not coming in today, but I will probably come in 2 weeks from now" ...
Director, ASL Recruitment:
You could not run a business like that.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: ... I think there would be an issue.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
If they enter into an assignment, so the vacancy will come in ... let us use a simple team role: "We are looking to update all our database, we have got some people that have moved around. We have got some temp work and it will be for about 3 weeks." We go out to the market, speak to the youngsters involved and one of them will say: "I am only available for a week" but that is no good, because they want somebody for 3 weeks. So then you have got to do some matching and then there is a mutual respect on both sides that they are going to get that kind of work arranged, rather than: "I will do day one, then I might finish it in 3 months' time." So you have got to have some sensibility ...
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment:
They do know how long it is going ... yes, they go into it like that.
Director, ASL Recruitment:
Yes. There are lots of reasonable behaviours involved in that.
The Deputy of St. Ouen :
Okay. You have been very helpful to us and given us a good understanding of how the agencies operate and the people you place, so thank you for coming to speak to us. We are very grateful.
Managing Director, Rowlands Recruitment: Thanks for having us.
Director, ASL Recruitment: Thanks for your time, appreciate it.
The Deputy of St. Ouen : That ends this hearing.
[11:05]