Electoral Reform - D. Maltwood - Transcript - 18 May 2017

STATES OF JERSEY

Corporate Services Scrutiny Sub-panel Electoral Reform 2017

THURSDAY, 18th MAY 2017

Panel:

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence (Chairman) Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour (Vice-Chairman) Connétable M.P.S. Le Troquer of St. Martin

Senator S.C. Ferguson

Witness:

Mr D. Maltwood

[12:33]

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence (Chairman):

The third public hearing we have had - sorry, the days are getting together - on the Corporate Services Scrutiny Sub-panel on the electoral reform proposals that are being put to the States on 6th June. There is a little notice to your left in plastic, which just gives the status of the proceedings and things like that. Would you like me to read it out or are you happy just to take it as read? You may have seen ...

Mr D. Maltwood:

It cannot be much different to what it always is, can it?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

I think it is going to be along those lines. Sorry, also the usual notice to Members sitting in the public seating is about no disturbances from electronic devices and no interruptions to the proceedings. So for the benefit of the tape, if we just go around. Deputy John Le Fondré, Chairman of the sub- panel.

Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour (Vice-Chairman): Deputy Kevin Lewis , Vice-Chair.

Connétable M.P.S. Le Troquer of St. Martin : Michel Le Troquer, Constable of St. Martin .

Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Senator Sarah Ferguson, member of the sub-panel.

Mr D. Maltwood:

I am Derek Maltwood, Procureur of St. Mary .

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Thank you very much for coming. What would be helpful, do you want to give a quick background of your experiences in terms of when you were in the States and at present?

Mr D. Maltwood:

Do you want me to tell you what I think of this lot?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: Then we will get on to that.

Mr D. Maltwood:

What was my experience? I was a Deputy for 15 years, Vice-President of Finance and Economics for 12 years, President of Harbours and Airport for 4 years. I cannot remember how many other things I used to do.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Just from memory, can you remind us when you started and when you finished?

Mr D. Maltwood: 1987 to 2002.

Okay, great.

Mr D. Maltwood: History.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Do you want to outline or could you outline your views on the main proposition that is in front of the States and the 2 amendments which are due to be debated on 6th June?

Mr D. Maltwood:

Thank you. I do not know whether you were all at the Bailiff 's swearing in or Liberation Square on this 9th May. I know Senator Ferguson was, because I heard her name mentioned on the wireless.

Senator S.C. Ferguson: Oh dear.

Mr D. Maltwood:

But I do not know whether the rest of you were there. The Bailiff spoke very strongly about "reclaiming the Jersey way" and whereas these proposals may be the most P.C. (politically correct) or democratic, they are certainly not reclaiming the Jersey way. What makes Jersey different? What makes us unique? What makes Jersey Jersey? In my view, the most important element is the parish system. It is not just the Honorary Police, but also the whole gamut. I do not say this just as the Procureur of St. Mary , but there are an awful lot of people in every parish play their part in an honorary capacity and I believe this engenders the whole community spirit which pervades certainly all of the country parishes. I am not quite sure that it applies quite the same to St. Helier . The Jersey way may seem quaint to people outside, but it is a thing that we have experienced for a very, very long time. It may be deemed irrelevant by some of the progressives and perhaps even some of the town members, but I believe that the Anglicisation of everything starts with the States. They have employed far too many chief officers from the U.K. (United Kingdom), who try to replicate their experience here in Jersey. What they have not done is to train up locals to be their successors. It is all too easy to put in an advert, take some chap with a massive C.V. (curriculum vitae) from the U.K., but he does not understand the Jersey way and the way that we do things. I want my children and my grandchildren to be able to live here and understand the Jersey way, not just the U.K. way. Now, on the parish Deputies, I was a parish Deputy , as I said, for 15 years and I always took an active part - and still do - in parish life. I have served over 50 years in various honorary capacities in the parish. Now, the removal of the parish Deputies, in my view, will be another nail in the coffin of the whole parochial system, which is the major part of the Jersey way, and I would beg you not

to pander to the young progressives who would kill off the Jersey way. On the Senators, people say that our system of Senators, Connétable s and Deputies is complicated and difficult to understand. In my view, that is absolute rubbish. We have an excellent education system and anybody reasonably educated can understand our system. Those who rail against it as being difficult to understand either do not want to understand or do not take an interest in local politics and therefore have no need to understand. Most senatorial candidates have either been a Deputy or have held a prominent position in the Island, so voters have some way of evaluating their abilities. An all-Island vote is probably the ultimate in democracy and should not be done away with. Some would say that perhaps I am just a stick in the mud dinosaur, but I am not. I am someone who is experienced in politics. I have thought a lot about the subject. Furthermore, I play golf regularly at Les Mielles with a lot of Jersey folk. Just a few: there is A'Courts, Syvrets, Renouf s, La Motte and Renoir. That is just a few of them, so I see good local people regularly and I have found absolutely no support for the proposed desecration of the Jersey way. So that is, in a nutshell, what I feel.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: Yes, thank you very much.

Mr D. Maltwood:

It may not be everybody's view, but there we are.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

There are a couple of questions that come out of that, but I will ask one and then see if anyone else has one before we move on to the second. You make reference to the all-Island vote is probably the most democratic and should not be done away with. Can I just probe slightly further on that, I suppose? We are receiving various comments across the spectrum at the moment and one of them has been it should be everyone should be a Senator or whatever. The issue around that is sometimes around the practicalities, so in other words, could you elect 30 people or 40 people or whatever it is on an all-Island mandate potentially in one go. Do you think there is an issue on practicalities ...

Mr D. Maltwood: Oh, very definitely.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

... or do you think that is something that should be considered?

Mr D. Maltwood:

Our parish hall would not be big enough to take 50 candidates for 30 places and then still have an audience. Yes, we can use the community centre, which probably could cope, but for people to get a reasonable understanding of that many candidates is virtually impossible. I am afraid the J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post) will be relied upon to too great an extent, dependent on what they report and what they say. I sometimes found it difficult to find 6 candidates when there were 12 Senators and 6 and 6, sometimes I would find it difficult to find the full 6, except I knew the ones I did not want to vote for. If I had to vote for 30, so say that I knew what the 30 people stood for, I think it would be impossible and I do not how many parish halls could cope with it.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Just before we go to question 2, anything?

The Connétable of St. Martin : Can I just pick up on that one?

Mr D. Maltwood: Sure.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

What did you think when it reduced down to 8 Senators? Do you think there should be more? The exact point you made at the end there about the last 2 or 3 candidates that might be elected might not be suitable for the position of Senator, because they are: "Pick number 8" or: "Pick number 9", should it be increased to 10 or 12?

Mr D. Maltwood:

I must say, I always thought that the Ministers principally should be Senators. They do not have to be, but principally I would have thought they should have an Island mandate. I am not sure, is it 10 ministries at the moment?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

There is 11 ministries at the moment and there are 8 Senators.

Mr D. Maltwood:

Yes. You should have about the same number, 11. I do not believe that one should change everything on one day, because there is a thing called continuity and if you suddenly had a complete new set of 11 Senators who did not know anything about the way the States work, they would be in real trouble for quite a while, because it does take a long time to work out how the States work. When I first sat in the States, I had Jack Roche on one side and Len Norman on the other, and Jack said: "Keep your mouth shut and your eyes and your ears open until you find out what goes on" and I can remember that.

Deputy K.C. Lewis :

Do you think we should go back to the old days of having say 12 Senators on a 6 and 6 rotation?

Mr D. Maltwood:

Yes, that seemed to work, because you then got some continuity, so if you have got a policy there are at least 6 people there who are part of the formation of that policy and can help the new Senators to understand the problems.

[12:45]

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Just probing slightly - I do want to move on, because we have got a range of questions, I am aware of the time - obviously there is a view that a number of people, or a lot of people, wanted the ability to change the States on one day, so effectively having what is called a general election day. How do you marry those 2 together?

Mr D. Maltwood:

If you had ... what is it, 48 Members now? It used to be 53 in my day.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: We are 49 at the moment.

Mr D. Maltwood:

If you had 49 new Members of the States on one day, I do not know, I think I would rather be in Guernsey, and that is difficult for a Jerseyman to say. The thought of it, it is horrifying and it is totally impractical to have, I think. It would be a real problem. This is one of the things, that I come back to the chief officers. You have got one Minister who relies on his chief officer. If he is English and works the English way and he is feeding this Minister with English ideas, he does not understand the Jersey way and we are going further and further down to becoming number 2 to the Isle of Wight or something.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Do you think the public are suitably aware of the proposed changes?

Mr D. Maltwood:

Those who want to be are. I think there are a lot of people who think: "Well, basically things are okay. I am only here for a 5-year contract" or whatever it is and they do not really take an interest. I think the turnout percentages give you some indication. St. Helier has got 30,000 people, St. Mary has 1,500 voters, but look at the percentage of people who bother to turn out.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

No, what I meant was do you think the public are aware of the 3 amendments that the States are going to be voting on in terms of the removal of Senators is one option or the super-constituencies?

Mr D. Maltwood:

There is still a large number of people who read the J.E.P., although I do know a lot who have given it up, because it is no longer quite as well-produced as it used to be. But I think anybody who does read the J.E.P. - and if you want to read the births, deaths and marriages in the Gazette, you have jolly well got to read the J.E.P. - people who read the paper are well aware of the ... they have been made aware of the changes. Whether they have taken it in, whether they are interested in it, that is a different matter, but there has been sufficient noise made through the various media on the proposed changes and I think the turnout will tell you whether it has been a success or not.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: In May next year?

Mr D. Maltwood: Yes.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Do you think the public distinguishes between the Council of Ministers and the States Assembly?

Mr D. Maltwood:

I suppose they do, but there again, it is those who take an interest in how the Island is run. It is unfortunate that so many people do not, but most people do take an interest. I think a lot of the sort of people I play golf with, they are worried about the Anglicisation of Jersey. I think if you remove the country Deputies from being related to any one parish, you will sever the link or one of the links between the public and the people, because the Deputy , he is there for every parish event, whereas if you are one of 4 parishes, he might go to his own parish, but he probably will not be going to all of the meetings, all the assemblies in all of the 4 parishes; at least he would find it difficult to.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Any questions at the moment? I have got one. One question - I suppose it is really about possibly getting it on record more than anything else - in relation to the role of the parish Deputy within the parish, you have made the reference to the severing of that link or the risk of severing that link. Could you outline what else the parish Deputy does other than appear in the States Assembly, if that makes sense, as part of expanding on what you have said?

Mr D. Maltwood:

He usually does quite a lot in the parish, although it is not always publicised as all the things that he does. We have a very successful community centre. I headed up for 6 years from the start to the completion the committee that ran or organised the community centre. It involved going around to various people to talk to them, be at all the meetings. I went with the Constable to Quennevais School to talk to all the St. Mary schoolchildren, who are obviously going to be the future residents of the parish, to see what they wanted and how they thought it should be run. I do not know, I used to meet my Constable most Wednesday evenings after the police meetings in the old days and I know our current Deputy does go and chat to the Constable regularly. The procureurs talk to him and they in turn talk to the church side, so there is a lot of networking within the parish. I am sure Mr. Le Troquer will confirm that his Deputy is always around. While you are there, you get soundings from people, people express their views to you, especially if you are on a branchage visit or just even at a parish meeting, someone will sit next to the Deputy and talk him about this, that and the other. There is a link, there is a distinct link, in my view or in my experience, between the parishioners and their parish Deputy , but they do not go and talk to the Deputy of St. John or St. Ouen .

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Is there a danger in decreasing the number of elected representatives? Because the proposals we have at the moment, we have obviously gone down over time from 53 to 49 States Members. The present proposal is go down to either 48 or to 44. I am wondering, is there a danger in decreasing the number of elected representatives in terms of the capacity of the Assembly to function properly? Do you have any views there?

Mr D. Maltwood:

You have got your 11 Ministers and they have got one or 2 Deputy or Assistant Ministers. If you are not careful, you are getting very near that old Troy Rule and I do not think we want dictatorial government. The other problem I see is that those people who are purely on Scrutiny and not in any of the ministerial groups, they feel they have got to act as an Opposition. I think one of the great strengths of the old committee system was the fact that they were all in government in one form or another. The big breakdown of the committee system was this method of sending Acts from one committee to another, taking 3 months before you got it back. If someone had devised a method

whereby the president of the committee had a meeting so that the questions could be answered backwards and forwards from another committee or something to improve that communication, then all of the States Members would then feel that they were part of the Government as opposed to feeling that they have got to be sniping at everything or whatever, because they have got to be in opposition. I think that a lot of people are anti the ministerial system because I think they feel that you have got one Minister, he has got his one chief officer. There is nobody there - I used to do it - playing devil's advocate in a committee, because that way you get a better result. It may take a little longer, but sometimes someone needs to be on your shoulder saying: "Hang on, what about this? What about that?" Because there are 7 of you, there are always some who had a different view and it was useful.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Okay. I would just obviously hopefully clarify that we do not set out to be an Opposition. I think the expression officially is "the critical friend."

Mr D. Maltwood:

It would be if people could understand the word "confidential" and I think that is one of the problems, that where you are trying to involve a policy or a strategy or whatever it is, at that point you need a certain amount of confidence because otherwise things go off half-cocked and you have not fully developed your policy and you need to have other people like your Scrutiny Panel. At that early stage, it needs to be in confidence, but people do not want to have confidence these days, they want to blow everything open at the first opportunity instead of waiting for something that has been worked through.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: Moving forward ...

Senator S.C. Ferguson:

I would just, with respect, ask you which particular confidences you say have been breached, because I ran a score on them.

Mr D. Maltwood: Oh, I am ...

Senator S.C. Ferguson: Sorry.

Mr D. Maltwood:

I cannot tell you which ones were, because my memory is not that good now, but there were times when things used to appear in the J.E.P. before they had got very far. But that is going back a bit now.

Senator S.C. Ferguson:

It is, because I think Scrutiny has been really quite responsible about not ... on the whole, most of the leaks have come from the ministerial side, but anyway, I am sorry.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: Yes, that is okay.

Senator S.C. Ferguson:

You have to stick up for Scrutiny, come on.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

I will ask the question, but I think we may have covered it. Do you think there is a danger that what we are referring to as P.18, which is obviously the reference to the propositions, as you will know, will negatively impact the parish system if it is implemented?

Mr D. Maltwood:

Yes. I think this is another nail in the coffin in the parish system and I think largely that is what makes us different. If you abandon the parish system, the costs will be enormous.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Do you think that the primary duties of Deputies are to their parish or to other matters?

Mr D. Maltwood:

I think it is like a lot of things that I have been involved in, that you have to play both sides to some extent. I am sort of classic, I suppose. When I was chairman of the J.E.C. (Jersey Electric Company) we determined that the priority was that the lights were on, second was the cost. We used to get attacked by people saying: "Oh, but you should give cheap electricity to pensioners" and I would say: "No, Social Security has to look after people who cannot afford it. Everybody should pay the same price and you must not treat a utility company as part of Social Security." There are things where you have to play both sides very often.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: In the political world, yes.

Gosh, I have been in all sorts of things through my lifetime where I have to forget or cut off the fact that you know something about that lot because you are dealing with this problem. This perceived conflict of interest is very much a card that is overplayed, because if you have been in a small community, you are very often involved in matters which cross at certain points and you have to learn how to deal with it.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Do you think there is any risk that the propositions on the table could alter their priority then? In other words, that the propositions - particularly, I presume, on the super-constituencies - would potentially alter that balance or alter their priorities?

[13:00]

Mr D. Maltwood:

I presume that some parishes are very much bigger than others and it will end up probably that some parishes do not have any representation. Although I think in the north-west there are 4 parishes, I would be surprised, because of the number of votes in one parish or another, that we probably will not have a representative in a small parish.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Do you think the parish system then is more important than voter equity?

Mr D. Maltwood:

Yes, because it is the Jersey way.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

When I say: "To what extent?" so that is quite a strong view, is it?

Mr D. Maltwood:

Yes, absolutely. I strongly believe that the parish system is what does make us different. It may not be quite the same in the likes of St. Helier , but certainly across the north, the country parishes, the parish system is unique. It works well, people are involved and they get their friends and their family involved. I find it is really the cement that sort of keeps our little communities together. It engenders that community spirit.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

We are going to go back a little bit in time relatively, which is to Clothier, so what are your views on the recommendations that were made in Clothier and then how they compare to the propositions?

Mr D. Maltwood:

I was never a great fan of Mr. Clothier. There again it was another Anglicisation or proposed Anglicisation of the Island, call everybody M.S. or Member of the States or something. I do not know, a lot of it seemed to me that it was going almost to the lowest common denominator. I believe in the way that we have existed without Clothier and I was never a great fan of Mr. Clothier.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

I think we will probe on that slightly, because you gave written evidence to the Clothier Report and I think you met with the panel at the time. Can you recall what views you expressed at the time ...

Mr D. Maltwood: No idea.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

... and/or whether they have changed since then?

Mr D. Maltwood:

No idea. When I left the States, I had a large trunkful of stuff that went to Bellozanne to be burnt. I have no papers left whatsoever of those days.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

I think we have covered this one. I will ask it just to make sure we have, which is purely do you think the role of Senator should continue to exist?

Mr D. Maltwood: Yes.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

We have obviously covered issues around numbers previously. Do you think that St. Helier is under- represented at present?

Mr D. Maltwood:

No. Look at the turnout. It is a very poor turnout.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

So from your perspective, you are looking more at the turnout of people who are interested in voting rather than the actual total population?

Mr D. Maltwood:

Yes. If the electoral role in St. Helier came up to the number of residents and they bothered to come out, there might be a better argument for any increase in St. Helier 's representation, but I do not believe there is at the moment.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

In the event that there is a view that St. Helier should receive greater political representation, should this be to the detriment of other parishes?

Mr D. Maltwood:

The only people who would be suggesting that they have a greater representation is probably the St. Helier residents. I do not think you would find the support for that proposal among the other 11 parishes.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: So at the moment, if ...

Mr D. Maltwood:

They have got 14 Deputies or they used to have. They have a large number of them.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: I am going to say 10.

Mr D. Maltwood: Is it 10?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: Yes, I think it is 10.

Mr D. Maltwood:

I thought it was more than that.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: Ten plus Constables.

It used to be a third of the total. It used to be 29.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Yes, thank you. I was going to say, I am just going to start writing down the names there just to check, but ...

Mr D. Maltwood: Yes.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

No, so I think the question we are asking is there has been a focus on not increasing the number of States Members and therefore reallocating the representation between ... well, as you can see on the super-constituency side, so that is why we are just curious as to the impact of that is obviously that St. Helier , under the proposals, will get more Deputies and therefore I think I am just trying to separate the 2 arguments. One is assuming that St. Helier gets more Deputies on the basis that it is considered that they should have greater representation. Just to press you slightly, do you think that should be to the detriment of other parishes or do you think it would therefore mean you would keep the same number of States Members - but obviously there will be winners and losers in that argument - or do you think that if there is an acceptance that St. Helier requires greater representation that there should be an acceptance that means an overall increase in States Members?

Mr D. Maltwood:

You can certainly go up to, if you need to ... we were 53 in my day. I know who makes the most noise about increasing the number of Deputies in St. Helier , because you can read them in J.E.P. But I do not think they do really need any more. They have got all the districts covered. Grouville I think is probably the worst represented in numbers. I think it was Grouville , because I remember trying to work out an exercise back in my younger days and it was only Grouville that really stood out as having less representation than anywhere else.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

I think the population has obviously changed fairly considerably since then.

Mr D. Maltwood:

Yes, obviously it has changed, but I think you need to look at the number of people who vote rather than the total population. If the total population voted, then you might have an argument.

The argument of course is that the Deputy , once elected, then represents the total electorate, even if they did not vote for them or did not vote.

Mr D. Maltwood:

So the rector of the parish represents all of the members of the parish, not just his congregation.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Yes, so precisely the point being is that if the population has increased, do they therefore require more representation? Right, okay, any ...

Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Yes, just a quick one. I was very interested in what you were saying about the J.E.C., that the J.E.C. is there to provide electricity - I am sorry, it is slightly off the point, I apologise - and Social Security is there to look after the wellbeing of residents. So do I understand from that you feel that taxation should not be used as a method of having social change, it should be straightforward and any social change, redistribution, whatever, goes on at Social Security?

Mr D. Maltwood:

I think you have got it slightly different between tax and the electricity charge. We all pay the same price for our electricity; we do not all pay the same amount in tax.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Can I also just point out it is not within the terms of our reference?

Mr D. Maltwood:

No, and social engineering goes on all the time through the use of taxes and it will always continue to be ... well, if you can call it social engineering, it is looking after those who cannot look after themselves.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

The only question I had really, you did not just work for the people of St. Mary , did you, because you had so many important roles when you were a States Member?

Mr D. Maltwood: Yes.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

They are happening today as well, there is representatives from the smaller parishes that are doing that. How do we get that across to the public? There must be a frustration there that they think we are just representing St. Mary , just representing St. Martin maybe, but the work that States Members do, do you think the public understand that they are not just representing them?

Mr D. Maltwood:

I think the people who want to understand do. The trouble is that most people do not, they just look at something like that Innovation Fund and they just tar all States Members with the same brush regardless, because it is easy. But if you bother to take an interest and find out what people are doing, you can do. There are some very good States Members. My wife is a great fan of Kevin because after writing to him about a yellow box, it was done within 2 weeks. She could not believe it.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: On that note ...

Mr D. Maltwood:

But there are certain States Members who will never reply to anything and one of them is in charge of the biggest area in the Island. His in-tray must be 10 feet tall.

Deputy K.C. Lewis :

You have got me blushing now. Yes, do you think we should go back to the committee system and abandon the ministerial system or do you think - I will risk getting something thrown at me here - that we should maybe take a leaf out of Guernsey's book and have a hybrid of the 2 systems?

Mr D. Maltwood:

I think you need to bring more people into Government and get them to think positively. The old system with its old communication system did not work and it was pathetic for the time that you had to wait sometimes just to look at any answer.

Deputy K.C. Lewis :

It was like pigeon post.

Mr D. Maltwood:

But there must be some way - and Guernsey may be the answer, I have not studied Guernsey that closely - but all the States Members need to be thinking positively, not negatively. I do listen on a Tuesday if I am doing something or other at home and I have got the wireless on as well. There are

so many negative people and there are so many questions about things that you know the answer to that really wastes so much time. Questions now go until lunchtime.

Deputy K.C. Lewis :

It is 2 hours now I think it has been extended to.

Mr D. Maltwood:

Admittedly, as Vice-President of Finance and Economics, everything virtually came across our desks, because nearly everything involved some money somewhere, so we had a very good idea of what was going on in almost every department. But, no, that certainly did not happen, even with some of the Back-Benchers, but at least they were in government in one position or another and they had to think positively, not just negatively.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

We are diverting off where we should be going and I am also acutely aware of the time, but what I ...

Mr D. Maltwood:

I am delaying you from your lunch or sandwiches, I think.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

No, that is okay. I will just ask - we do have a meeting at 1.30 p.m. - how do you balance the issue you raised just then, which is about the inclusivity argument, and the issue I identified earlier, which is on the Troy Rule and the reduction of Members and the Troy Rule being squeezed? Now, my impression from what you said on the Troy Rule was that you thought that was quite important to retain under the current system.

Mr D. Maltwood:

Yes, you must not have the Ministers and their Assistants in greater number than the 50 per cent, but people who are on some of the smaller committees, they were free to vote on any subject other than their committee they were sitting on. But an awful lot rubs off with the cross-fertilisation of people on one committee with people on other committees, because they talk to each other at committee meetings, not necessarily about what is in front of them, but about something that has happened somewhere else. So the networking was much more freely available than I believe it is now.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

I do not want to put words into anyone's mouth here and I will not, but is it a decision then between ministerial and committee in terms of the systems?

Mr D. Maltwood:

That is one of the problems I think we have with people feeling that they have got to be anti everything if they are not involved on the Council of Ministers.

[13:15]

I think it is a great pity, because all of us have only got a certain amount of time and intellect and we should be using it to the best of Island's advantage, not always looking to pick holes in things.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: Okay, on that note ...

Mr D. Maltwood: Sorry, I am dinosauring.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

No, I am just acutely aware ... because it has been fascinating, but ...

Senator S.C. Ferguson:

It is all right, I was told I was an anachronism the other night.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

We have gone off our terms of reference, but thank you very much for coming in, because it has been ... we wanted a different perspective on the ...

Mr D. Maltwood:

Well, you asked me, and I have always been prepared to do my bit.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: Thank you very much.

Mr D. Maltwood:

That is the Jersey way.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

On that note, the hearing is finished. [13:15]