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Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel
Vehicle Road Worthiness Testing: Jersey and the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic
Witness: Jersey Motor Trades Federation
Tuesday, 30th October 2018
Panel:
Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade (Chairman) Connétable J.E. Le Maistre of Grouville (Vice-Chairman) Connétable S.A. Le Sueur -Rennard of St. Saviour
Witnesses:
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation Vice-President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda Administrator, Jersey Motor Trades Federation
[14:29]
Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade (Chairman):
Good afternoon, everyone and thanks for coming in. I am going to just kick off by identifying ourselves round the table, so from the point of view everybody knows who is what. I am Mike Jackson , Constable of St. Brelade , and chairman of the Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel.
Connétable J.E. Le Maistre of Grouville :
John Le Maistre, Constable of Grouville , vice-chairman.
Connétable S.A. Le Sueur -Rennard of St. Saviour :
Sadie Le Sueur -Rennard, Constable of St. Saviour , on the panel.
[14:30]
Administrator, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: Peter Tabb from the Jersey Motor Trades Federation.
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda:
Miles Jude, Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Andrew Ruellen, President of the Jersey Motor Trades Federation.
Vice-President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: I am Alan Osmand, Bel Royal Motors.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Thanks very much. I will start off by just reading out the terms of reference, which are fairly brief. "1. To assess whether contracting to the United Nations Vienna Convention on Road Traffic is the best solution for Jersey to guarantee the free circulation of vehicles in Europe post-Brexit, or if there are suitable alternative options. 2. To conduct a stakeholder consultation with the aim of producing an evidence-based comments paper to be presented to the States Assembly for debate on 20th November 2018." Before we just get into questions, I would ask you just to tell us what your representation of the trade is, effectively you are, clearly, Derek Warwick Honda, Ruellens, Bel Royal. What is your feel about your representation with the rest of the trade? Maybe that is where Peter comes in.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
I could maybe answer that. We do not have a large membership, as in numbers, but in the main players, the main dealers, we represent all but one of the main dealer franchises of our membership. When it comes to independent garages, there are about 67 independent garages but a lot of those, 70 per cent of them have less than 3 people working there. So it is quite hard to get a full representation. I speak to a lot of the motor traders and I spoke to every one of them recently, not on this subject, but on other subjects of training, and also doing a survey of who they are, how many
people they have working there, how many trainees they have. Even though we do not have a full membership of the trade, 40 per cent of people, technicians, who would be carrying out retail repairs, are under our umbrella.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
The one large trader who is not involved, who is that?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: It is Mansells.
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda:
There is only one franchise that is not involved, which is Mansells.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: Hyundai Mitsubishi.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Do you think Jersey should comply with the international standards on road safety by contracting to the Vienna Convention?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Yes. I do not see any other way of letting us have free movement in Europe because what I have read, and what we have had presented to us, there is no other alternative. What a lot of garages and what a lot of people are saying is: why do we not just test the cars that leave the Island? That is the question I get day in, day out, whether they are motor traders or whether they are just people in the street. They do not realise that joining up to the Convention says the jurisdiction has to have testing. I think if that was communicated to them they then would understand. I think there definitely needs to be a big push on the communication of that because it does sound quite sensible that: "I do not leave the Island, why do I need to have my car tested?" I think if that message was communicated people would have a much better understanding. We did not have it before but everybody thought we had some sort of testing. Some information I got from a meeting with D.V.S.D. (Driver and Vehicle Standards Department) is that we, in so many words, have been winging it. We have been coming under the umbrella of the U.K. (United Kingdom) so all the other European jurisdictions thought that we had some sort of testing in place.
The Connétable of Grouville :
What sort of consultation have you had with D.V.S. about this coming in? When did it first land on your desk?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
We have had zero communication. The only reason we have some information now is we have pencilled in a meeting before the news of this broke with D.V.S. about a week after the news broke. I think it was 2 days after the proposition was lodged, we had that in our diary 3 months beforehand. There was no consultation at all. The information we have, I was getting more information from reporters asking me questions of information they had been given by the comms team than I had from anyone else when I was asked for our words.
The Connétable of Grouville : What consultation is going on now?
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda:
To be honest, we did have a meeting with D.V.S.D. before this was released but unfortunately you, through a slight mishap, did not attend. So that was prior to the release and then we have had a subsequent meeting since in September. We have communicated with them for 6 months now.
Administrator, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
I think we would regard this as part of the sort of consultation process anyway, because obviously we are being made more and more aware of what is going on. You made an interesting point, Constable, about the road safety aspect of this. I can also speak on behalf of the Road Safety Panel, because I am the vice-chairman of that. The question was that 2 per cent of the road traffic collisions are caused by defective vehicles. That is probably so, but one of the things the Road Safety Panel has discovered through research by the police is that very often it is the condition of the vehicle, which is a consequence ... makes the consequences of a road traffic accident worse than it would have been. It was not the cause of the accident but because the vehicle was defective ... in one horrific case, there was one at Hautes Croix, was that the vehicle's condition was what caused the people inside it to be killed. Not the fact that the driver had made an error in the first place. Had that vehicle been in a sound condition it would have probably survived that, but it did not because of its condition. That, I think, is a factor which, although it is easy to say that statistics say it is only 2 per cent of accidents are caused by vehicle defects there are an awful lot of vehicles on the road which are carrying defects that the trade comes across in trade-ins, and what have you, and repairs, that are not picked up and they are not picked up even by roadside checks because the roadside checks obviously are purely visual. But the risk there is the consequences of any accident that vehicle might be involved in could be considerably worse than they would be if the vehicle was in a good condition. That I think is a factor ... that is the road safety factor behind that.
Vice-President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Constable, can I just go back a few seconds there about the consultation with the Driver and Vehicle Standards Department? We were invited to a meeting at Snow Hill, as Miles quite rightly pointed out. It was a very productive meeting. We gained an awful lot of information from them, and I think we have been assured that we will be invited to future meetings. So there is dialogue.
The Connétable of St. Brelade : I am sure that is the case.
The Connétable of St. Saviour :
At this stage, the details of who will conduct the testing, States or Jersey, or both ... yourselves, the garages, or the States, is unknown, so we have been informed. We have also been informed of the cost of everything that will come into fruition; the brake elements and the emissions machines. It is quite a lot of money. Do you think that the garages should do this or do you think the States should be the ones who are doing the testing?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Do you have any figures there for the cost of the equipment?
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Broadly, we were told this morning it could be £100,000.
The Connétable of St. Saviour : I did not make a note of the ...
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
I made some phone calls today and I spoke to 2 companies. The cost we were told at the meeting was about £100,000 for a test lane. I did some comparative pricing today and it is between £20,000 to £30,000 for your brake tester, your emissions tester and a dedicated lift. There are various degrees of test equipment. There is also test equipment that can be a one-man test station. That puts the price up to about £35,000 but the £100,000 I have yet to see a lane for car testing that costs that amount.
The Connétable of St. Saviour :
We were told that motorcycles and mopeds were slightly less and that was £30,000.
The Connétable of St. Brelade : Yes, that is ...
The Connétable of St. Saviour :
But the £100,000 was what we were quoted.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
I do not know where that figure has come from. I made a comment at our last meeting with D.V.S.D. and I said, in my opinion, from the information I see, it was £25,000. I did actual phone calls today and got figures. It is of average quality.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Are you sure they are compliant with the ...?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Compliant with the U.K. M.O.T. (Ministry of Transport) legislation.
The Connétable of St. Saviour : They are?
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
It is probably early days yet in that we have not got the specification from D.V.S. as to what exactly the parameters are going to be. But I think what we are trying to understand is what the commitment for a smaller business might be because it is not insignificant, as you can see.
Vice-President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Does it not detail in the Convention what we would be inspecting or is it open to each jurisdiction to interpret it?
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Broadly, there is a bit of interpretation but I think the main parameters are there with what the U.K. are doing.
The Connétable of St. Saviour :
The emissions seems to be a big one.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: A big one, as in?
The Connétable of St. Saviour :
Not a major problem but that is the one that they are very concerned about; the emissions.
The Connétable of St. Brelade : Testing equipment for emissions.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Yes, that is round about, for a high-quality machine, £5,000, petrol and diesel combined. That is the new specifications that have been put out in the U.K.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Do garages at the moment, when they do a service, do they test emissions?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: No.
The Connétable of Grouville : No garage in the Island does?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: No. The reason ...
The Connétable of Grouville :
In the U.K. they would be doing it.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Yes, on a M.O.T. test, not in a normal service. The reason for that being is in 2001 cars have their own inbuilt diagnostic system. So if your car is polluting ... has a fault that is going to pollute the atmosphere it will put an orange light, an engine light, on, which will then tell you that something is amiss with your car, because you would not be able to tell by driving it. So you have 2 sensors in the exhaust that are checked before and after and that then reports back to you with a warning light. But what happens with our annual testing, people will drive round with this light on because it has no effect on the driveability of the car and will continue to drive it. So testing on that aspect is a very worthwhile thing.
The Connétable of St. Brelade : Just back one ...
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: It was only half the question, was it not?
The Connétable of St. Saviour :
Because we are also concerned about the fees that are being bandied around to have this test done. Have you sort of worked anything out among yourselves roughly what it could be, because at this moment in time your figures are not the same as what we were quoted earlier on?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: I do not understand what figures.
The Connétable of St. Saviour : As regards the machinery.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: Okay, you mean the outlay of costs against ...
The Connétable of St. Saviour :
Yes, that is not the same as what we were thinking, so what cost do you think it would be for us to do an M.O.T., which would make this ...
Administrator, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: How much will we charge the customer?
The Connétable of St. Saviour : Yes.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: It is normally set by the Government.
Administrator, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: That is not up to us.
The Connétable of Grouville :
We understand that the M.O.T. has a maximum cost.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Yes. £54 plus V.A.T. (value added tax), I should think.
The Connétable of Grouville :
But you can charge less than that.
Administrator, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: You can do them for free.
The Connétable of Grouville :
The one problem is if you do it for free the likelihood is you are going to recoup the cost by charging more for the tyres or whatever.
Vice-President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
That is a bit of a cynical view, in my opinion, in that we are a small community. If we got a reputation of doing something like that, we would not be able to look our customers in the face. I am one of the advocates of if we were empowered to carry out M.O.T.s I would almost certainly do them as part of a service. It might mean a modest increase in a labour rate but I would like to think that perhaps it would not be, but that is my opinion.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
It is probably early days yet, but going back to the set-up costs and the charge-out fee. Do you think ... you may not have done the calculations yet but do you think within the potential set-up costs the proposed charge-out fee is sufficient to cover that?
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda:
I think the problem that we have as an industry is I do not believe that we have the capability to operate as test centres. If you look at the responses on the internet, there are 8 responses from garages. Many of which are very small independents that just could not put a test facility in their establishment, hence some of them say: "We should not need brake testers" and things like that, which obviously is not going to happen because if someone scrutinises they are going to say: "Your test is not a level that it needs to be."
[14:45]
If you look at all your responses, most of the people that say they would do it, just do not have the premises or the infrastructure to be able to do it, which then only leaves a couple of the larger players that would have. But the biggest issue and threat for us, as an industry, is staffing. As you have probably seen from the responses, a lot of them are already saying we cannot get enough technicians, as it is. So immediately if suddenly 6 or 8 further technicians are required for M.O.T. testing I believe that the Government needs to look at licences for those people. Because if the Government set up their own test station and took 6 to 8 technicians out of our already depleted pool of technicians, that would leave us, as a trade, in a position where we cannot fulfil our normal daily requirement for maintaining vehicles.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Do you think that would be overcome by the granting of a period licence while we got over the initial lump, if you like, for a year, or whatever, something like that?
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda: Potentially.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
What about at the other end, training? Does the trade have many apprentices these days in terms of mechanics?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
No. A survey I carried out a few months ago now, there is ... out of the retail establishments where you could drive in and have a car serviced or repaired, there are 24 apprentices, which is roughly 15 per cent of the workforce.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Is it easy to get enthusiastic lads to come on as apprentice or is it just too onerous for the business?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
No, it is not too onerous for the business. It is finding the right candidates. Also it is finding ... car repair now is not basic hands-on mechanical. The level of people, a lot of the main dealers there, minimum criteria is a C in English and Maths to then go on to the manufacturers' training. I have not had a candidate yet with 2 Cs.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Are Highlands doing anything to assist?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Highlands do, on their full-time course, mechanical and they do English and Maths, on their full-time course, with a view to increasing ... to getting them nearer to a C, but I think their minimum criteria was an E at the moment to be accepted on the course. I interviewed someone for an apprentice place this morning and he had 2 Ds. He did do his retake but got 2 Ds again, after his year at Highlands. That does not affect my intake because I am not set to the manufacturers' criteria but the other people around the table have got a minimum criteria that they have to meet for their manufacturers.
The Connétable of St. Brelade : That is dictated by the ...?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: By the manufacturers.
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda: That is rule from the manufacturer.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Do you feel that Highlands perhaps needs to attune better to that?
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda:
I think a lot has changed over the years. Twenty years ago the average application for the 12 spaces on the motor vehicle course is about 50 people. They would cherry-pick the 12 best from those 50 to enrol. Now I think they are almost struggling to get 12 people to put on. So therefore the general calibre of those students coming through is at a much lower level, which is a knock-on effect of what Andy is saying there. Plus the fact that to be a technician now, with vehicle diagnosis, which is one of the main aspects, it is a much more technical job than it ever used to be. Which is similar to a lot of the trades, when you look at electricians. Electricians, you used to serve your apprenticeship with an electrician you are an electrician. But now the level of maths that is involved within electrical circuits that suddenly they are now struggling as well to recruit the calibre of person.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
So when they go to manufacturers' training, it is basically training on the testing machine, I would imagine, is it? Is that about the level of it, or is it deeper than that?
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda:
It is deeper than that. It depends what level they are going to be trained to. For instance, a 45 year- old mechanic told me last week he had never stripped a gear box before. But he has been a mechanic for 30 years, which is quite a sad state of affairs really.
The Connétable of Grouville :
You discussed the cost of putting in this equipment. Can you confirm at the moment you do not do the 3 tests which are likely to come in, which is basically headlight alignment?
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda: We do headlight.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: We do headlight alignment.
The Connétable of Grouville :
You have already got that equipment?
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda: Yes.
The Connétable of Grouville :
The other one; emission nobody does.
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda: No, because it is self-governing.
The Connétable of Grouville : What was the third one?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: Brakes.
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda: Brake tester, which you have not got.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: I do not think anybody has.
Vice-President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: Jackson s have, do they not?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
No, it was flooded. Motor Mall had it, it got flooded in whenever ...
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
That is a rolling road, is it?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
It is a machine with 2 rollers where you put your foot on the brake and you can see the efficiency of the brake.
The Connétable of Grouville :
My next question is: if you are a garage and somebody brings their car to you, and says: "Get this ready to be tested" how will you know it is ready if you have not got the equipment to test it to the level that it will be tested?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
That is true, but it is also the same ... the test for taxis at the moment is like a stringent M.O.T. test and we test those weekly without any problems at all. Sometimes you can have a brake imbalance with a handbrake but there are ways of testing ... there are other ways round it. It is more of a rule of thumb rather than an actual test.
The Connétable of Grouville :
You have no problem if somebody brings a car to you, even though you have not necessarily got all the equipment, you would still be confident that it would pass the D.V.S. test, if they were doing it?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Yes, but if you were doing it on a more regular basis than a taxi a week you would then buy a brake tester, brake roller.
Vice-President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
That is a fair comment because if we have a large service base and if somebody did come in and say: "Please prepare my car and it must pass the M.O.T." if we have not got that equipment we cannot do that. Or we cannot do it with confidence. So I would suggest that if there was a centralised testing station we might be forced down the route of investing in this equipment ourselves.
The Connétable of Grouville :
So you can be sure it is going to pass the M.O.T.?
Vice-President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: Absolutely.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Otherwise you can see the cars oscillating back and forth, can you not?
Vice-President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Absolutely, and they will question the integrity of the whole service perhaps because it has failed its subsequent test.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
One thing, when you talk about the equipment, because there is no criteria now, if you look at an actual test lane in the U.K., there is specification it is 12 metres long, or it can be 8 metres long by 4 metres wide. That will not fit in many people's establishments. But if you were to separate the equipment, you could have a brake roller in an open bay and you can have a 4-poster lift in a lot smaller area. So the criteria of how that would be set down would have a big effect on who or who could not then meet the criteria of having a 12-metre continuous lane in their workshop.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Given that there is a lead-in, it probably could be 2 to 3, even 4, years, I think, would that ... provided the parameters could be agreed in terms of the further information, which none of us have yet, do you think a reasonable lead time would give you time to gear up, if necessary, like in terms of business investment. Because it is not insignificant for all of you. Would you be comfortable with a 3-year lead time to get all this together?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Yes, and I think the investment, even for smaller business, is if that was spread over a 10-year period it would not be such a big investment for people because these pieces of equipment do last an awful long time. There is some maintenance, you have to regrip rollers and have your calibration of your machine, but for all intents and purposes it does not wear out.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
In book terms, do you depreciate over 10 years, 15, 20? What is the norm in the trade?
Vice-President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: Seven to 10.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: Seven normally.
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda:
I mean the issue again I do not think is the investment in the equipment. It is the staffing issue. At the moment every workshop on the Island does not need any more work. If you talk to anyone who runs a workshop they have got all the work that they can cope with, with their current staffing levels. That again is the biggest issue for us as a trade, would be where do these staff come from.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Do you think going back to apprenticeships is always easy in retrospect? Do you feel you ought to have done more in the past?
Administrator, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
It is not a case, the motor trade, like others, have faced tremendous competition from other people here. Employees in the Island who offer, in many cases, very much ... certainly cleaner jobs. I think we have faced 2 things within the motor trade, certainly in my experience over the last 30-plus years, which is that the trade ... requirements of the trade has been illustrative of change inasmuch that we now have technologists as opposed to having people who just get their hands mucky. But the other thing as well, is that garage staff have been able to reduce because of technology. But equally, the demand for young people coming out of school, coming out of Highlands, in other areas, has increased dramatically. Largely because of the finance sector. So it was not only a case of whether or not we should do more. It is whatever more we were doing, and we have done a lot of things over the years to try and attract apprentices, it was not working. Not because of what we were doing but because fundamentally the perception of being a car mechanic was still basically it was a manual job, even though in many instances, particularly for a diesel mechanic, it was extremely well paid. That is one of the problems we have had to combat. The motor industry itself has done this by making cars much more technological. The old days when you could open the bonnet and understand what was going on, now you open the bonnet and that is it. You cannot see anything. That is again what the industry has to face.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Do you think there is mileage in looking at the structure - going on to staff, continuing with that - in going back a bit, there used to be basically a day-release arrangement whereby the employer would employ the staff for 4 days, one day they go off to Highlands and you get paid for it. A very simple system.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
That is still the case. You talk about is it something we have been complacent in taking on trainees. I have had 3 trainees in the past 12 months. I had one do his day release and after a year he decided he wanted to move industries and go into ... he went back to Highlands to study business because he thought it was not for himself. The second one had issues. He did not pass his probation
due to not turning up to work on time and general attitude. The third one, unfortunately, had mental health issues and had to just leave work. As I say, I interviewed this morning another chap, and he hopefully starts on Monday. So there are not that many people in the gene pool for apprentices but the costs over the last few years, I had to fight with my manager about the calibre of people. It is difficult. We have built up a relationship with Highlands. I spent a couple of days there on the day release courses because we did not know what was going on. So I did a second-year day and a third-year day, and was very impressed with the training they received.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I think a lot of people do not appreciate the distraction an apprentice has on the tradesman. So there is a lot of work, I appreciate that. We spoke about the road safety side, Peter, with your other hat on you have been ...
Administrator, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: Well, I wear it on behalf of the motor trade.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
It could be said that ... there is an argument it is a fallacy that M.O.T. testing ensures that vehicles are fit to be on the road. That ensures it is fit at the time of testing. Do you think that any system we put in over here would replicate that or do we need to go a bit further?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
That is just fact, is it not? You could drive out and your brake light could blow and then ... that is something that has been around for a long time. People saying it is not worth anything. But it is. It does show the integrity of the car. Your crossmember is not going to rust tomorrow. You can have certain things go but it has been designed ... the testing has been designed over a long period of time. In the U.K. they have no notifications of things that are not visual, so they can keep an eye out on things they see as a pattern forming.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
There is a suggestion that vehicle testing would reduce emissions we spoke of earlier. But is it going to reduce emissions dramatically by having a mandatory testing process, in your experience?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
It could indirectly by people not driving older cars and scrapping cars.
[15:00]
Also, as we talked earlier, about driving round with a problem that does not affect them, it definitely would have an effect on emissions.
Administrator, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
I think one of the things that we came across - in fact with data provided by the D.V.S.D. 2 or 3 years ago - is that there were probably in excess of 10,000 vehicles, mostly cars, on the Island that were more than 10 years old. The reality linked to them is that they are the sort of vehicle that is not then brought in for regular servicing. The trade would say that most of the vehicles are coming for regular servicing are relatively new vehicles. The older vehicle gets the less ... there is an imperative, if you like, for most of the owners to spend the money on servicing. That is where the emissions would benefit because older vehicles do not necessarily have ... you heard 2001 was when all this material was introduced into car systems. Anything older than that, and there is a significant number of vehicles on the road that are older than that, would not have that self-measurement, as it were, of emissions. They are happily tootling around. Unless they stopped because they are leaving so much smoke behind them or unless they are seen at a roadside check where they are pumping out loads of gaseous smoke then they are going to happily do that. That is the type of vehicle, as Andy says, that would be likely to be removed from the road because the owners effectively are almost certain to fail an M.O.T. diagnostic test. The likelihood of having that car fixed to make it M.O.T. test proof, if you like, is probably going to be too costly for them to contemplate so they just dump it. There would be a significant rise in scrappage.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
There is a suggestion that in terms of talking about older vehicles that vehicles over 40 years old would be exempt. Do you think that is the right sort of age?
Administrator, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
That, I think, is a judgment but most of the vehicles of that age are in fact kept by very, very keen owners, who keep them in immaculate condition. Their mileage on the road normally is very restricted because most of them have got this mileage restriction on their insurance policies, which means they are only on the road for, in some cases, 1,000 miles a year. Sometimes even less. The likelihood of them being a problem in terms of emission, and what have you, is very, very small indeed.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
You could probably say that maybe 30 years even, the amount of cars ...
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
That has been a suggestion which you may have seen. The 40 is probably a bit too old. There is probably a graph, is there not?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: Indeed, there is a graph.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Modern cars have got quite sophisticated exhaust systems that take out a lot of pollution.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: Exactly, that is right.
The Connétable of Grouville :
But over here there is a problem with them, inasmuch as we never get them to the heat or they are not doing the journeys that you would expect them to do. Is it going to be a problem to get our cars down to the levels that are expected of a modern car?
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda:
I think possibly you are confusing diesel particulate filters with catalytic converters. Yes, there are certain manufacturers that have issues with diesel particulate filters. Not that it means that the car is then producing more gases than it should, but the fact that they get blocked up with the particles that they have extracted from the gases, which in some cases means replacing those. But as far as a catalytic converter goes on a petrol car then they work as they should on the Island. In fact, there are some manufacturers who do not supply certain models in the Channel Islands for the reason they cannot be run with the sort of speed ... for instance, some have to run at 50 miles an hour for 20 minutes. So perhaps our friends at Rouge Bouillon, that is the fire service, our friends at the end of the tunnel are not really going to welcome that, are they? "Oh, I am just heating my car, your Honour."
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Cars by year are built to a certain standard, a Euro standard. In 2001 your diesel would be a Euro 3 standard car. We are now up to Euro 6. So it is virtually fresh air that comes out. The testing, if it was emissions testing, is different for different brackets of car. So the older cars do pollute more, even though they are running perfectly normally.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
They will be tested to the standard of manufacturing ...
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
They will be tested to standard. Modern cars now on a chassis plate have the test criteria on the chassis plate for diesel emissions.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Can you see any other consequences of this law coming in for your trade? You have sort of mentioned it could be a problem finding the technicians. What else would be a problem for you?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
One thing I do not think will be a problem, which we have discussed, is ... which was brought up at our meeting with the D.V.S.D. was the repairs from the testing. Responsible car owners have nothing to worry about because any car that is annually serviced should go through a test with no problem at all. Some of the figures that were said in the meeting were the failure weight in the U.K. was about 17 per cent. Of that 17 per cent I think over half of that were repairs, which were light bulbs or tyres or headlamp alignment, which would not be onerous on the demands of garages. I do not think the testing will have a big effect on workload of garages.
The Connétable of Grouville :
17 per cent, I do not quite understand that, because if it has been done ...
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: Sorry, the failure rate. The failure rate of a test.
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda: M.O.T. failure rate.
The Connétable of Grouville :
So you take your car to a garage in the U.K., if it fails surely they ... do they not put it right before they test it?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
No. I did a bit of research on this and a lot of places will do the M.O.T. test before they do the service. I questioned this just last month. I said: "That sounds wrong. Why did you not service it and M.O.T.?" because the retest is normally free. I could not see the logic in it but I asked 3 different places. It is not how I would do it.
The Connétable of Grouville :
They M.O.T. test it. They say you have got this wrong and that wrong.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Yes, you need a service and a new front spring or something.
The Connétable of Grouville :
But it may be that garage that does it, and if that garage does it, presumably you get the free final test.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
It did not seem the correct way but that is more of the norm.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Free retesting, is that the norm generally, do you think?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: Yes.
Vice-President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: If it is presented within a certain timeframe.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
In a certain timeframe or if it is retested at the person who did the original test. But that is the U.K. model. We keep focusing on the U.K. model but that is not the norm through Europe.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
We are going to come to that later. In terms of France, because France is just there.
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda: Who knows?
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
What we are looking for, I suppose, is the unintended consequences of States Members accepting this and trying to identify what could come up, which we have not spotted.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: I am not sure.
Administrator, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
I would have thought, I mean I do not know any more than the rest of us do, but if our vehicles are tested in compliance with the Vienna Convention, which is applicable throughout the European Union, then effectively whatever the French do we will be complying with what the European Union is demanding, which is the application of the Vienna Convention. So I would have thought from the point of view of the local motorist who wishes to go to the Continent, providing they have the certificate, they will pass. Some years ago, it is an apocryphal story, but Ben Fox was stopped just outside Heray, by a gendarme because he was leaving a little trail of smoke, which was probably because his vehicle was for the first time for some time had done 20 miles at 50, 60 miles an hour, which being Ben, being a former policeman, would not have been doing there, and it was just clearing the rubbish out of the cylinders. The gendarme stuck a thing up his exhaust pipe. Said: "Right 90 euros please and you can go." But he did ask him for his certificate. "We do not have certificates where I come from." And that is when he stuck the thing up his pipe, cost him 90 euros. Now where that 90 euros went, I suspect it probably went into the gendarme's pocket, but whatever. But there was even then an expectation. I can remember talking to Gordon Forrest's predecessors, 10, 15 years ago, in fact, on the Road Safety Panel talking about emission controls being imposed on the islands by the French. That has not yet come to fruition but effectively the Vienna Convention has overtaken that. It has been a longstanding concern that the French would enforce emissions, which is the same in Ben's case, which was 8 or 9 years ago at least, was done.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Your question about unforeseen consequences, it is very hard to answer that without knowing how it is going to be implemented. Because one unforeseen consequence could be is that it would not be a level-playing field for everybody. So would people who, if it was given to garages, then would a lot of the smaller businesses lose their customers to the places that could do them both at the same time.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I think that is a risk and we would like to expose the risks, if you like, for States Members to decide on when the time comes.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
That is one thing that sort of fits into your unforeseen consequences, is people with the space - finances aside - I think the biggest concern is the smaller repairers having the actual floor space to be able to carry it out. Then the people who did have testing facilities, if it was given to the motor traders, they would be disadvantaged and the other people would monopolise on that just through customer going path of least resistant of the one-stop shop.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
As major franchisees, do you have a relationship with smaller garages in any way?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: I am independent.
Vice-President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Personally, the specialist, like Andy's business, yes, we would call upon him. But the less specialist garages, no. We should be able to do it all. Coming back to the testing and with the garages built to cope with the subsequent workload of any failures, I think the answer is unknown because you might get the mindset: "I will have my car tested on a Wednesday because I am taking it to France on a Monday" and it fails you are not going to be able to just drive into any old garage and have that fault fixed. So there will be a build-up. There will be a build-up of people that will be very frustrated that cannot have their cars repaired and we have to be careful that we do not generate some very bad press as a result of that. People have to be educated before the tests come in to give themselves plenty of time for any potential failure.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Clearly, there will be compliance issues within the law, which will take their course for those who do not comply. Would you expect there to be a lead-in period? Because clearly there are going to be a lot of cars having to be tested all of a sudden. What sort of lead-in period ... given that your businesses were licensed, shall we say, by the D.V.S., what sort of lead-in period do you think you would need to accommodate the initial rush? Based on your present clientele.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
There would not be an initial rush because in ... it was saying cars from 5 years and then every 3 years. So that looks like it has been designed to make it manageable. Most customers would not need a rush because if they had their car serviced when it was due there is no reason why it will not just go straight through a test.
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda:
I think, to start with, it would almost be impossible, if we as a trade were doing the testing, because to start with you are going to see all of the vehicles that have not been maintained properly, that not only need testing but need additional work. So therefore if we have already effectively used up our workshop capacity in doing testing, we are not going to have the capacity to do the remedial repairs. That is a short-term blimp because once everything has been through the system and is gently rolling over on a 3-year period then that levels out. But to start with, you are going to have obviously a huge amount of cars that will be scrapped in the first couple of years and conversely all the cars that have not been maintained, that suddenly need to be maintained. So they would be that first period where we would not be able to cope as an industry.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Do you think as time went on you would have the vehicles/clients in your database, so you would have some sort of idea when it is going to be coming in, first of all the 5 years after initial sale and consequent 3-year period? So you can have some sort of ... a better plan in place.
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda:
Part of the problem is when I look at my database for service customers, that we obviously annualise all the time, send service reminders all the time, send overdue service reminders, is as the vehicles reach a certain age profile, customers are then reluctant to service them as frequently. So, yes, while they are fairly new customers come in, get them serviced every year, and then you see a petering off of the maintenance standard of the older vehicles.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Do you think you can pinpoint that? Clearly you are going to have a 5-year, it probably will not be a problem, is it year 8 or year 11?
Vice-President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
It is tied into warranties. Again, there is a trend there. There is a 3-year warranty, 5-year warranty, 7-year warranty so we would expect to see a large proportion of our 7-year warranty customers staying with us for the 7 years. Three-year service customers might
[15:15]
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda:
To be honest, it is, I think, somewhere within the detail was talking about warranty periods which generally, as a norm, is 3 years, with the exception of the 2 Korean brands, Kia and Hyundai, that are 5 and 7. So the majority of vehicles are all on 3 years warranty. What most manufacturers are now doing is concentrating on selling service plans. Most of those service plans are 5-year plans, so that again ensures that when people have a 5-year service plan and they are not paying for that servicing; they may pay for it upfront but they are not paying for each individual service then therefore that level of maintenance on those up to 5 years is very, very high.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Is there any difficulty in getting people to bring vehicles back?
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda:
Yes, even when they are on free servicing. We have to chase and chase and chase. They do not even have to pay for it and they will not come in.
Administrator, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
It is like getting an invitation from your dentist. [Laughter]
The Connétable of Grouville :
Andrew, you said that M.O.T. was unusual, the way of testing within Europe, were you about to tell us which other systems there are and are there better systems?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
I only know very briefly some of the other systems. It is not the easiest information to gain because a lot of it is in a foreign language. Ireland, for instance, introduced annual vehicle testing in the year 2000, southern Ireland. I think that is the newest model I could come across and they were in the same predicament that we are and had to figure out a way of how to introduce it and how to then carry it out. That was carried out by an independent company who specialised in testing. They do, I think, about 7 jurisdictions in Europe. I cannot remember their name now but when I researched it this is the thing that came up the most, that they have a business model that they roll out to different places. In Germany they have independent test stations. So the norm is to have an independent test station. The U.K. seems to be the odd one where it is through your repairing garage. Most other jurisdictions have the dedicated test centre that you drive in, drive out.
The Connétable of Grouville :
But not necessarily public owned, possibly privately owned?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
I do not know the ins and outs of that, whether they are government owned or government owned and independently franchised. A lot of them Ireland is franchised run and sorry I cannot remember the other ones.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Guernsey are not following this route at this present stage, have you got experience within your business of Guernsey?
Vice-President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: They are watching us closely.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
I have been speaking to my counterpart in Guernsey, the president of the Guernsey Motor Trades Federation and they do not even have a government testing station. So I think in the proposition it said something about them being 18 months behind and they agreed with that. But their stance is they want garages to do it because I do not know, they said the model they are going for is they want to push for the garages to be in the test stations. But they have fewer repairers than we do. They have larger repairers, as in the main dealers, but the independent sector is a lot smaller than it is here.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
So they have the same capacity issues I would imagine within
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Another thing they said, or the president said, was they are not quite sure how many cars they have. He said: "I have 10 log books in my desk which need to go for scrappage" but they are on the old system of log books that we used to have and they really are unsure of how many cars they have circulating around. When we had the change of log books it did tidy up the number of cars we had but they have not had anything like that. So he said: "We are really unsure how accurate the numbers that we are hearing are."
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I suppose one can argue that the proposals are being rushed through in order to comply with Vienna, to safeguard the Jersey motorists' ability to circulate freely across Europe in the event there is a no- deal Brexit. Do you think that is a valid enough reason to move ahead at this stage or should we wait until after Brexit to see what happens?
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda:
I do not think that is something that we, as a trade, really have anything to do with. That is a government issue to decide whether we should be in or out.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
It is basically a question of judgment of risk from the information we have and the department, I think, are probably doing exactly the right thing because I think it is Government's responsibility to mitigate risk. But looking from our point of view, and possibly from the trade point of view, one has to decide whether to try and influence States Members to say: "Well, it is worth taking a risk" or: "No, it is not."
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda:
I think at the end of the day if it was introduced (a) that risk will go away, (b) from what I can see there is only positives to introducing it, being air pollution is a big positive, road safety is a big positive. I am struggling to see a negative to it.
Administrator, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
I think it is fair to say, Constable, that this M.O.T. are saying - not necessarily called that - mandatory testing has been on agendas certainly in terms of road safety for the last decade or more. It keeps cropping up as being something that would a form of testing of motor vehicles of every size and sort would be beneficial to improving road safety, and that has been in road safety reports and road safety strategies certainly for the last decade, probably longer than that. I have been on the road safety panel for 20 years and I think we have started talking about this after 5 or 6 years that I had been there as being up until that time, as most of us will be aware, there were certain Members of the States who the moment it was talked about just got up and said this is just simply a licence for the trade to make money. That was including one former motor trader who was himself making money at the time, whose name escapes me, but not very far. [Laughter]
The Connétable of Grouville :
Can I just explore one thing? If the larger garages - because the smaller garages cannot - have facilities to do the testing, they would need to be licenced because they would have to be to a certain standard, is there any reason why part of that licence could not insist that they provide to - obviously charging for it - test the vehicles of the smaller garages?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
It would not fit in the business model because you would not be able to accommodate so many extra cars.
Vice President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
You would look after your own first, I guess, so they would become - for want of a better phrase - second class citizens. You know, if we have the capacity we would allow them to come in but
The Connétable of Grouville :
Well, you would have to, if it was part of the licence you would have to allow them to come in.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
But I do not know how you would be able to dictate that. Just, for instance, if you picked my garage and I was an authorised test centre but it stipulates that I have to test cars for smaller garages that did not have it, you could say yes and you could do one a day. If you said you have to do like-for- like, so we did 10 of our own customers' cars, you will have to offset by doing 10 of another garage's cars. Where are you going to put those other 10 cars? It does not fit in your normal business model to have you use your space accordingly and that is part of how you come up with your normal everyday business. If you then said you would have to do, say, another 10 like-for-like, where are you going to put those 10 cars?
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I must admit I think it is a naïve approach and would not work.
Administrator, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
One of the factors that tends to get overlooked, is we have spoken about training of staff, we have spoken about facilities in terms of equipment, but a really significant factor, as we have illustrated, in fact it is the sheer space that this will require. Many, many of the smaller garages just simply do not have the space.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: Larger garages do not either.
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda:
I do not have the space. As we stand, I do not have the space but if it was decided that the trade was going to do the testing, I would have no choice but to somehow rejig my business to put a test station in because I cannot have my customers going to Bel Royal Motors for their M.O.T. and
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
We do not know what the specifications are going to be, is it general in the U.K. that you have a 12- metre road, if you like, or bay?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: Yes.
The Connétable of St. Brelade : Or can it be split into 3?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
No, I think it has to be a dedicated I think there is a 7.5 metre model, so you have a ramp, a beam setter and then you have a brake tester beforehand. I think if your doorway leads on to your car park you can backwards and forwards but it is still about 7.5 metres, I think.
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda:
Yes, you can get 6.5 metres with the brake tester incorporated into it, but, then again, that is more expensive as well.
The Connétable of St. Brelade : Yes, that is not inconsiderable.
The Connétable of Grouville : I do not have anything else.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
One thing you mentioned about the costs, what do we think of the costs. We did not really get an answer on that and none of us have looked into the business model of the cost at £60. But looking at the time it takes and the costs, it seems quite fair and the cost to the public of a capped £60 or thereabouts over 3 years is £20 a year. It seems the pricing seems
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I think whatever the cost is, the public will not be happy with it. But as you quite rightly say, that is what one might expect based on what we see in England. I think from our point of view, and the department have kindly given us some costings to establish how they have arrived at that, which is quite plausible. But there are quite a lot of variables for them to deal with along the way yet. For instance, if one does get involved with a land or property acquisition in order to be able for the States to do that, there is a significant cost in there which could throw things. But in terms of the numbers that we think will need to be dealt with, some 40,000 cars initially, it sort of stacks up. I presume none of your businesses have anything to do with motorbikes at this stage?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: No.
Vice-President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: No.
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda: No.
Administrator, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
No, and we have no motorcycles dealers among our membership.
The Connétable of St. Saviour :
Oh, do you not?
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda: Yes, we do, Jackson s.
Administrator, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Oh, Jackson s, sorry, yes. They probably do not regard a BMW as a motorcycle.
The Connétable of St. Saviour :
Because motorcycles, they are going to one of the first to be tested. I think it is an experiment. If we know what we are doing with them, because it is a small vehicle, we can branch out. But none of them belong to the motor trade?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: No.
The Connétable of St. Saviour : Interesting.
The Connétable of Grouville :
What about commercials? Are you involved with commercials at all?
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda:
Commercials, we have several members for that one. Commercial operators.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Yes, and clearly they are being tested already anyway. Anything else, gentlemen, you would like to extract from us.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
You mentioned about is it should we or should we not go ahead with it because of Brexit. Is Brexit really anything to do with it? Because when you look at it we should have been doing it anyway.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I think morally you are probably correct. Brexit is the stimulant.
Vice-President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
So if there was a no-deal Brexit would this be shelved, do you think?
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Probably not, because part of the process there is a timescale which the U.K. have adhered to in terms of signing up to the Vienna Convention, which has to be done by January, I think, to get to the United Nations and we are falling into line with that. So we will be committed by the end of March provided the States agree. Now, having committed I would think I would not expect the department to then sort of fall away and do nothing. Although, by that stage they will have motorcycles probably, or mopeds and 16-seaters and commercials, in hand down at La Collette. I would think it is unlikely they would default on doing private vehicles. I do not think that would be
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda:
I do not think deal or no deal changes what we need to do anyway.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
The only thing that would change is if the States in their wisdom decided to reject the proposition that has been put forward, then we would be in a position of not complying with Vienna, so the need may not be there. Having said that, then if we went to Brexit, who knows what the output will be because nobody really knows yet at this stage.
Vice-President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
I guess from the Driver and Vehicle Standards Department point of view, if they are going to do the motorcycles and the minibuses, et cetera, will they be gearing up to do that or do they think they have the capacity? If they have the capacity, will that impact on us as a trade, on the service they already provide us? It is not one for perhaps today but it is something that
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
My understanding is the technician need at this stage is not that great. I might just check in the back there, are additional technicians required?
[15:30]
Male Speaker:
They do have a capacity just for procurement of the motorbike testing phase, that is all that is required.
Vice-President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Sometimes we can wait up to 2 to 3 weeks for an imported vehicle to be inspected and that can be extremely onerous
The Connétable of St. Saviour : That is a long time to wait.
Vice-President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
It is a long time, but if their services are going to be diluted perhaps that might become the norm rather than the exception. I have to say, it is not the norm but sometimes we can be waiting that time.
Male Speaker:
I thought we had rectified that. I do not think you are waiting 2 to 3 weeks now.
Vice-President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: Okay, I will check that.
The Connétable of Grouville :
You asked the question by your question, what you mean is this should come in whether we adding to it or not, whether we need to be in Vienna or not, we should be doing it, is that what you are trying to tell us?
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Yes, we should have had it anyway under the even coming under the umbrella of the U.K. We should have it. For all intents and purposes, this is how it was portrayed to me, we come under the umbrella but we have been winging it because our number plates look the same and our driving licences look the same. So it should have been in place anyway.
The Connétable of St. Saviour : Then we have been in lucky.
The Connétable of Grouville :
That is from a legal point of view as opposed to it should be in anyway because
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Yes, from how I understand it, from our meeting with the D.V.S.D.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Yes, I mean, this is down to legal interpretation really quite frankly, that is what it comes down to. But I think this is the opportunity to move forward.
President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: Yes, most definitely.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Let us look ahead rather than behind.
The Connétable of St. Saviour : It has been an eye-opener.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Well, thank you very much, gentlemen, for your attendance. We will produce our comments in due course and we will see how the debate goes.
Vice-President, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
What is the next phase? Is it the sitting on 20th November?
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Effectively, yes. I do not know if D.V.S. will be wanting to if you are making arrangements to meet the trade
Male Speaker:
I think there is a meeting planned
Managing Director, Derek Warwick Honda: Post-debate, I think.
Male Speaker:
Just after the debate.
Administrator, Jersey Motor Trades Federation:
Yes, we agreed that post debate because we had a very cool briefing from Gordon and his colleagues and I think post-debate has been decided because it obviously very much depends on exactly how the States vote.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Yes. Well, you saw probably in last night's Evening Post there was a different opinion from
Administrator, Jersey Motor Trades Federation: Absolutely, yes.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I do not know if it was one of your members.
[15:33]