Vehicle Road Worthiness Testing - Minister for Infrastructure - Transcript - 30 October 2018

Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel

Vehicle Road Worthiness Testing: Jersey and the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic

Witness: The Minister for Infrastructure

Tuesday, 30th October 2018

Panel:

Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade (Chairman) Connétable J.E. Le Maistre of Grouville

Connétable S.A. Le Sueur -Rennard of St. Saviour

Witnesses:

The Minister for Infrastructure

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment

Group Director - Regulation, Growth, Housing and Environment Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards

[10:08]

Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade (Chairman):

Welcome to the public hearing regarding the vehicle roadworthiness testing in Jersey and the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic. We will just go round the room quickly and introduce ourselves for the record. I am Constable Mike Jackson , chairman of the Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel.

Connétable J.E. Le Maistre of Grouville :

John Le Maistre, Constable of Grouville , vice-chairman of the panel.

Connétable S.A. Le Sueur -Rennard of St. Saviour :

Sadie Le Sueur -Rennard, Constable of St. Saviour , panel member.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

John Rogers, Director General of Growth, Housing and Environment.

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure:

Hugh Raymond, Assistant Minister for Infrastructure.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Kevin Lewis , Minister for Infrastructure.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: Tristen Dodd, head of transport.

Group Director - Regulation, Growth Housing and Environment:

Andy Scate, Group Director for Regulation within G.H.E. (Growth, Housing and Environment).

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Gordon Forrest, head of D.V.S. (Driver and Vehicle Standards).

Project Manager, Growth, Housing and Environment: Toni Miziolek, project manager, G.H.E.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thanks very much. Just if I may quickly take us through the terms of reference of our review, which is, one, to assess whether contracting into the United Nations Vienna Convention on Road Traffic is the best solution for Jersey to guarantee the free circulation of vehicles in Europe post-Brexit or if there are suitable alternative options and, secondly, to conduct a stakeholder consultation with the aim of producing an evidence-based comment paper to be presented to the States Assembly for debate on 20th November. Right, what I kick off with is asking, if I may, the following. It is apparent from several written submissions to the panel that there is significant interest from the motor trade

to deliver road worthiness testing. This is contrary to what is stated on page 19 of P.109/2018, which says that initial discussions with the industry have identified there is generally a reluctance from local garages to undertake inspections, largely due to the investment required, small size of many local garages and lack of availability or available land for larger operations. One garage even told us of their frustration that they had not been consulted at all. So, can I ask, one: who specifically did you have initial discussions with?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think that is probably one for the officers because we held the discussions. It was the Motor Trades Federation we had the initial discussion with and then we had a follow-up discussion with them and also with the motorcycle garages. So the position has changed through those discussions, we understand, since the proposal was first written.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Going to the Motor Trade Federation, I mean because we have cars and we have motorbikes and I appreciate that there is a difference there, is that the consensus, do you think, of all the members of the federation?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think with ... I do not know that they had done any poll or any discussions with their members, but it was the views of the people who were present in the meeting, those who chose to attend.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

It seems that the M.T.F. (Motor Trade Federation) only constitutes some of the garages in Jersey and it does not represent the entire motor trade. I just wondered if you had extended discussions to others within the industry.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

What I would say is that the Vienna Convention is for the ... it provides for the circulation of vehicles internationally and gives Jersey rights to travel anywhere in Europe notwithstanding what type of Brexit occurs or whether Brexit occurs at all. So that is the fundamental focus of Government. If that is agreed to, there is then a procurement exercise about how you undertake the testing. That work and the optioneering around that has only really just begun and there are many different models that could be adopted. Of course, if we get to that stage, then that procurement process will be subject to scrutiny in its own right.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Right. Clearly, you did not have an in-depth discussion with the rest of the motor trade. I just wonder whether you think that might have been useful at this stage because clearly to convince States Members to support the proposition we need to think down the road and understand what the future will bring. It is quite fundamental and the effect on the Island is quite significant. I just wondered if you had in mind to go a little bit further down the road.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

The direction we have received as officers from the Brexit Ministers' group is to put in place contingency plans that allow Jersey's vehicles to circulate without hindrance post-Brexit. That is the implementation of the articles of Vienna into Jersey legislation. From that flows the actual vehicle inspection, and there are many ways in which you can do that. That is a big study in its own right and, of course, once we do that ... of course, we will speak to everyone and we are duty bound to find the best value solution for the people of Jersey and one that considers the needs of all the stakeholders involved. There are lots of different models that that might assume. You could have a single test station operated by Government, a single test station which is franchised out to the private sector, whether it be a consortium or single provider. It could be a dispersed model where you license garages, or it could be any combination of those. But until you start doing the procurement optioneering and working your way through those processes you cannot determine that. So to go too far down that route at this moment has not been the issue. The issue has been: is there the capacity in the existing industry? Is there the equipment within the existing industry? What might the cost of that look like, providing that equipment and infrastructure to the provider? So that is the information we have provided in the proposal and subsequently to ...

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It is worth just hopefully reassuring the panel for P30 and H.G.V.s (heavy goods vehicles) we have been through a consultation with all the industry and we have developed solutions in partnership with them for dealing with those vehicles. As the vehicles get smaller, there is more people in play, but we are looking to do that. We are not dictatorial about this. It is the best value for money for the public of Jersey and the one which has the least negative elements. There are pros and cons for each option, which we have to look at, and the dispersed model and model where the private sector are doing it has challenges as well as doing it through a franchise and through a partner organisation. So, we have looked externally at Northern Ireland and Ireland and the U.K. (United Kingdom) and Europe to see how other people do it, but the actual tactical stuff on Island and dealing with all the businesses is we will move into that phase when we get approval.

The Connétable of Grouville :

The impression you had given to date, though, was that it would be Government doing it.

No.

The Connétable of Grouville :

You are now saying that that is not the case?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We have never said it was Government doing it. We have always said the most cost-effective option is a single location but it has always been envisaged that that is a franchise. That is not more civil servants.

[10:15]

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Just to add to that, I think what we have tried to say - and forgive me if we have not explained it clearly - is that there needs to be an independence and an auditability to the testing process. So whether it is ourselves, a franchise or dispersed garages, then those organisations must be subject to review and must be demonstrably independent. There cannot be an interest in selling services associated with it. So it is a bit like the vehicle operator licensing which John alluded to whereby actual individual garages do that in that instance but it is a completely auditable process. I think it is that that would be required in terms of the trust of the users.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Can I just take you down the regulatory side and it may be one for Andy? Where does this lie in our present structure of States, if you like, in terms of regulation? Would it come under your ...?

Group Director - Regulation, Growth Housing and Environment:

It does, yes. The regulation group now has a number of regulators within it, so anything which ... the quick sort of summary I would say is anything within a place or a premises, so physical regulation of business premises, so it covers food premises, restaurants, it covers building, construction, vehicles, et cetera. So Trading Standards is in there as well, environmental pollution, those sort of regulatory things. So the regulation of a premise, if this is a model whereby someone else does this service, that service will also be subject to regulation through Trading Standards and through inspection of those premises to make sure they ... as Tristen has pointed out, making sure that they are delivering the level of service that is expected. So it gives us the ability to get a bit of harmonisation into our world around how we regulate. I just want to make a comment. Your first statement was around the different view of the industry versus what we stated in the proposition. I think it is really around the wording. I think industry may well support the introduction, but they may

not wish to undertake, and I think they are 2 different things. I think industry may well ... we have highlighted the fact that elements of industry are maybe unwilling to undertake because of the investment and the scale of work that is involved. However, they are supportive of the introduction. So I think they are 2 different things, which is possibly why there seems to be a bit of a difference between the 2 sentences, but I think it is more around that.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think there is another point, which is to do with the figures we supplied and how we calculated our base cost. We calculated the base cost on what we considered the most efficient way to deliver that testing and that, of course, is a production line because you need less equipment. So that is how the base costs are calculated and that is how we think you will achieve the best value for Jersey. But that is not to say that someone else has a different model which would be competitive or can be provided at the same cost.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Who regulates the M.O.T. (Ministry of Transport) garages in the U.K.? How is that regulated?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

There is a regulation basis on those. What is the name? V.O.S.A. (Vehicle and Operator Services Agency).

Group Director - Regulation, Growth Housing and Environment:

Yes, it is the equivalent, I would say, of ... D.V.S. brings together all of our sort of vehicle licensing, vehicle standards, into one organisation. So D.V.S. here is a combination of D.V.L.A. (Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency) and those sort of bodies. So it would be a job for D.V.S. effectively through an enhanced role to test the testers, if that makes sense.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

There are also people who calibrate the equipment, who do that independently as well.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

You have given us figures regarding the costs of administration, if you like, that would encompass that. How many additional staff members do you think would be required within the D.V.S. structure at the moment?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think in terms of that it really depends on the model you go down. So if it is a single independent franchise, then it would need very little in the way of additional staff. It probably could be done within

the existing resource. We are already policing the vehicle operator licensing system. If you have to make visits to numerous garages, then you might have to consider or redeploy staff, but we are not at that situation where we can predict that yet because we do not know what the procurement model is. Because what we are really focusing on is trying to secure that fundamental right for Jersey residents to be able to circulate around Europe post-Brexit.

The Connétable of Grouville :

The cost of it you have estimated at £40 to £60. Is a retest going to be exactly the same cost?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes. It takes the same amount of time.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

So this is where the independent garage would probably score in that one thinks of the scenario whereby if we had a States-operated scheme, wherever, that a vehicle could go for a test. It may get refused for whatever reason. If it is sent to the garage of the owner's choice to be fixed is there a guarantee that it gets fixed? Then it has to go back for retesting. If, for instance, it fails again for whatever reason, it could be a lot of oscillating back and forth. It weighs in favour of the garages being able to do the testing and ...

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think in that if you have had your vehicle serviced you would be mightily disappointed if it failed, which is a pretty basic test, to be honest with you, that we are undertaking as part of the vehicle inspections. You certainly can do that. In the U.K. they have had a problem with that, which is while the maximum figure they get recharged for an M.O.T. in the U.K. is from memory £54. There are garages offering them for £30. They do not make any money on that offer. Those garages, according to the consumer websites, generally charge £120 to fix your vehicle to be able to pass. Those garages the consumer websites consider overcharge for labour and materials. So there is a skewing of the market in that instance, but I could see a situation whereby if there was a single testing station, as you said, you could take your vehicle to be serviced. They could present that vehicle for inspection. The inspection only takes 15-odd minutes to do, and then it is taken back to you and it is part of the deal that it is going to pass. Or like you say, it could be integrated into their own business.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think each business model has its pros and cons. For a single test station there is the negative of that potential trip once your vehicle has been serviced. You would get your vehicle serviced first, then you would go and hopefully it would pass. You would be disappointed if it did not. If you disperse this into garages then you are going to tend to skew the market to the bigger garages, to the more established garages, the garages that have bigger premises and a bigger throughput, which will then disadvantage the smaller garages, which I think is part of Jersey and how people work here. So there is a market skew regardless and I think there are pros and cons for each, which is why this is a sensitive issue and one which we will look at in depth over the coming months.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I have a personal anecdote. I sold a car in Canada and the person buying it said: "Let us take it down to the Government test centre." Went down there, had a cup of coffee, took 10 or 15 minutes, and then it got the certificate and he said: "Right, it needs this work undertaking to it. I am going to knock that much off the price." I said: "Fair enough." I wanted to get rid of the car, and then off it went. So it was quite nice like that in terms of giving people comfort when buying and selling.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Will that information be available online once the vehicle has been tested? I do not know if you have thought that far down at this stage. So if an individual was purchasing a vehicle, could they look up online to see whether it had passed?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think that is probably subject to those people agreeing to share that data, but what I would say is if you look on the U.K. sites, it is very clearly set out what you need to do in order to pass. What a lot of the websites say is it is not complicated to pass. We are talking about tyres, lightbulbs and brakes. They are really suggesting that people check all those things first themselves and that you do not need to have the failure rate that some people experience.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

You keep mentioning the U.K. We are obviously going down the same line as them. We are not going ...?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: No, we do not.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: No.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: I think you have ...

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Well, he has just mentioned the U.K. twice.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

You are right, I did mention the U.K. as an example which people might be familiar with.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Yes, and is that the example that we are ...?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: No.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We are looking at examples from all over. So, in particular, we have been over to visit Eire and Northern Ireland. We are aware of the model in Canada, well, in British Columbia, and at other locations, and we are also familiar with the model in the U.K. So we are looking at all of those, but as I said right at the beginning, what we are trying to do is to get to the position where we have a legitimate right to circulate around Europe. The model by which that is implemented has not been decided and will subject to ... that procurement will be subject to scrutiny and we can bring that back to you.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Thank you.

The Connétable of Grouville :

So have you ruled out the U.K. M.O.T.-style operation where the garages do the work and are certified to give the M.O.T.?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: No.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

No, we have not. There are issues with it and I think it does not ... for me personally it does not feel like the right model for Jersey, but that is something we can discuss with the industry and with that bigger stakeholder group.

Group Director - Regulation, Growth Housing and Environment:

If I could just add, the concern around the consumer receiving work that they are not happy with, to give the panel some comfort we have already got legislation that covers that in the unfair commercial practices law, which effectively is a Trading Standards law. So if any consumer has concerns over what product or service they have received, that can be dealt with separately outside of the system. It is a product or service being received by a garage. That is being covered by Trading Standards as much as by buying a product or a defective toy or whatever it may be. So we already have quite a lot of powers, actually very broad powers under that piece of legislation, to protect the consumer. Arguably, for consumer benefit it might be beneficial for consumer choice to have their work and their testing in separate places so it gives the consumer the power as to where they get their improvements to the vehicle done.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Also, obviously, the U.K. has been testing since 1960 but even though we do testing at D.V.S. for public service vehicles, heavy goods vehicles, et cetera, smaller garages are going to have to upgrade with new equipment to be able to test sufficiently. So there is obviously a cost involved.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Just going to prices, is it going to be the same price for motorcycles as ...?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

No, motorcycles will be cheaper. Motorcycles will £23. It would be the cost without any profit is what we calculate at using one of those stations. Motorcycles can be initially tested within the D.V.S.'s existing facility through the purchase of a few pieces of equipment.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

We have heard in some of the submissions of the current difficulties of recruiting staff in garages and technicians. When I was young, you used to look under the bonnet, you would change the spark plug, all sorts you could do. Now you have to plug it into a machine. Can you think that there is going to be a difficulty if we do not have technicians that can do these jobs? Have you been in touch with Highlands College and seen how the apprenticeships are going there? Are they on board to help you with this?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We train more apprentices than anybody else in Jersey, particularly in vehicles and the specialisms therein because, as you quite rightly say, they are now very complex and difficult things. To actually run a motor vehicle testing station does not require the same level of competence as a fully fledged technician to fix it. So there is a potential route which is a halfway house which we believe the industry can fulfil. We are liaising directly with Highlands in terms of training for those aspects.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Can I just add to that? You have to establish a facility and a premises and if you look at the timeline we are looking at, we will not be doing that for at least 2 years, which gives time to initiate the training schemes and bring them up to standard.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Are you going to have special premises for this or are you going to be able to do them down at D.V.S.? Because we have 3 bays in D.V.S.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

D.V.S. already inspects heavy commercial vehicles and public service vehicles. D.V.S. can also accommodate the motorcycle testing and the 10-seater minibus testing, but when you come to domestic cars, then you need a different business model. You either need a dedicated area to do so or you need to do a dispersed model, which is the bit we have been talking about. That is not what we have engaged in. What we have looked at is what would a dedicated facility cost and look like to provide so we have some base costs to consider but the actual procurement model is not agreed. That optioneering has not been done yet.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Also besides D.V.S. we have the Jersey fleet management which is down in Bellozanne, a huge garage. As John said, we have apprentices down there.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Picking up from that, what type of equipment will be required to carry out the testing? Have you calculated the costs of that at this stage?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I should have brought Tony to the table. Is it okay if I just invite Tony to tell you what the equipment was?

Tony:

As we said, V.O.S.A. set a standard. It is pretty constant across Europe and it is basically emissions tester, a headlight beam setter tester, a brake tester and for bikes a track line tester. So there is a group now. For motorbikes you can buy a complete package, a one-stop-shop. For cars and commercial vehicles, it is a combination of equipment that meets the required standard.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

So broadly, if a garage wished to ... shall we say a small garage, given that we chose to go down that route, what would they be in for in terms of costs?

Tony:

Well, a brake tester can cost you anything ... sorry, a brake tester can cost you between £30,000 and £60,000. An emissions tester is about £15,000. A beam setter is about £5,000 or £6,000, plus there is then the installation. Some of them it is more expensive to put it on a flat surface than it is to dig it into a hole, but as we all know digging it into a hole in Jersey costs you money. So you are probably looking at the best part of £100,000. You are looking at £30,000 for bikes and about £100,000 for cars.

[10:30]

But, you know, you can talk to garages, as we have done, and they will say: "Oh, I can get that for £15,000." The trouble is it does not meet the Garage Equipment Association certification, which is what V.O.S.A. recognise, for equipment that meets the required standards.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

So the regulatory department would be monitoring that side?

Group Director - Regulation, Growth Housing and Environment:

Yes, the equipment would need to be certified and approved equipment that we then trust its ... obviously, there is a human element of it in how it is used but obviously the product and the equipment need to be trustworthy at the same point.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

So we are kind of leaning to the States doing this because ... well, that is how I feel. We are kind of leaning to the States doing it and taking it on board. Has this money for all this equipment and what we are going to need been put in the budget?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

So, can I just answer? We have not decided at all about how it is going to be delivered, but we have worked out what the cost would be for buying the equipment necessary to get the type of throughput we are looking at. If it was to be provided by the States as part of a franchise or however, that would have to go into the next M.T.F.P. (Medium Term Financial Plan), which is why we have the timeline set out in the proposal.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We have not decided that the States is doing it. There are lots of models. Like, for example, the bus depot is under States ownership but it is operated as a franchise for the bus company. So there are lots of iterations and differences and although there would be a capital cost to procure it, then there would be a ... the charge would then cover that capital cost as it goes through the life of the building. So the effect on the States budget does not mean we have to cancel a school project to do this. It is something that is going to stand on its own 2 feet.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

The costings information that has been provided to scrutiny looks at a 15-year payback. So it would be cost neutral after 15 years with that charge of between £40 and £60 for cars.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I suppose I am looking from the small business point of view and thinking if they have to spend £100,000 and get that back over 15 years ...

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: Or it is up to them which model they choose to pursue.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Absolutely, indeed, but that is what businesses will have to think about, how they can get it back. I am just wondering in terms of the actual fee which we referred to before whether that is going to be sufficient to cover that. Because without that information it is a bit difficult to work out and to understand.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I do not think you can know that until you have been out to tender, is the truth, and you have to do that optioneering and then do a tender and see what comes back.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We were quite reluctant to give a number - I think you guys made us - because the model is different. If it is 20 small garages buying this equipment, that is £2 million worth of investment that needs paying for over that period of time. That is a very different cost model than a one-stop-shop that has 4 bays with this equipment in. It is a number which is proportionate to the amount of work that is going to be undertaken, but I think we have to be careful of the fixed costs because the fixed costs are the ones which are dependent on the solution.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Can I ask how many garages at the moment have the ability to test for those 3 things?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: Only D.V.S.'s test station as far as I am aware.

The Connétable of Grouville :

So when somebody takes their car for a service, they cannot be sure that their brakes are working properly, their lights are aligned properly or their emissions are correct?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes, I am not aware of any garages that carry that equipment.

The Connétable of Grouville :

So if we bring in this testing, how will the garages know that they have prepared the car properly to be taken down to D.V.S. for the final check?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Sorry, I am not a vehicle technician and one of the others may be able to answer better, but basically there is more empirical testing that can be done. So, you know, a good technician will understand the way the lights are meant to shine on the wall or however they test them. Once you have changed your brake pads you will be able to see that they operate correctly, but they will not provide the calibrated test.

The Connétable of Grouville :

You see my point there? If you are taking your car to a garage and you say: "Please get this ready to take down to D.V.S." and the lights are not quite right, the garage did not have the equipment to put the car right in the first place?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: There is a legal requirement for them to be right.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes, there is a difference between ...

The Connétable of Grouville :

I am sure there is but you can see there is a big problem here at the moment when the garages do not have the ability to put ...

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

No, there is a difference between a calibrated test and a test that a good technician at a good garage will do. So as Tristen says, it may be lines on the wall where the vehicle is being serviced but the actual calibrated official certificate test is a different thing. So there will be an iterative process but if you have a scored brake disc on one side and you do not have one on the other or you have your brakes pads worn, then once you fix all that, that car will 99 per cent of the time brake in a straight line. If it has oil leaks and stuff, they will be checking for that. So a good technician knows but again it is a case of how can we prove that, and that is why a test is of benefit. So they do not need all that information but it will be beneficial ... we have good technicians in Jersey and good garages, so they are doing that job now. This will just basically certificate that.

The Connétable of Grouville :

You have chosen 40 years as the exemption. We have had a couple of submissions to say it should be less; some say it should be more.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Forty years is a legal thing which came about with the Vienna Convention. It was to do ... not when the convention was first signed but it was when the first countries basically introduced it because legislation cannot be looking retrospectively. So 40 years is what was provided for within the Vienna Convention.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Do you think that is the correct figure? Realistically, things have moved on in car technology a lot in 40 years. Do you think that is still correct?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

That is the same that is in the U.K., is it not?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It is. It is consistent with the other signatories. It is consistent with our neighbours. One of the issues is if we are going to ratify this convention, it must pass muster both in terms of the review that the Department for Transport will undertake, from the Commonwealth Office and, ultimately, the lawyers at the United Nations. If you reserve on too many matters and change too many matters, you can create problems for yourself. The reason for that is the next country that comes along to ratify it will say: "What is the previous country's reservations? We will have some of that." So the lawyers at the United Nations will be very keen to do nothing that undermines the principles of the convention, which is to ensure the safety of vehicles circulating internationally, both in the home country and abroad.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Do you envisage much change in that? Once again in the light of changed technology, this 30 year- old convention now is probably dated in itself.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes. I think the Vienna Convention seems to be the vehicle by which autonomous vehicle technology will be governed, and that is one of the reasons why the U.K. was very keen to sign up to it because it gave it a voice on that international stage about the development and the rules that autonomous vehicles may be subject to in the future. So, it seems to be the better convention. What is for certain is if it is superseded by something else in the future, then it is likely to be far more focused on road safety and those future technologies. I imagine it could in the future cover things like cybersecurity and things like that for when you have connected vehicles circulating. I think that is where it is all heading but that is some distance off. So I think for the moment it is a good convention and serves the interests of the residents of Jersey.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

When you do read it, lots of countries do have lots of reserved areas.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: So do we.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Yes, but we are effectively falling into line with the U.K. reservations, I take it?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Pretty much. Our legislation pretty much mirrors the U.K.'s legislation in terms of traffic circulation. We have spoken to the U.K. about this. In Germany, for instance, you are not allowed to park in the opposite direction from the way the traffic flows. You cannot cross the road. In the U.K. you can and that is how things are done, so the U.K. has reserved against that. That is reflected in our highway code. Jaywalking again, in some countries you are not allowed to jaywalk within a certain distance of a crossing. The U.K. has reserved on that and that is also not in our legal suite. We did not want to change our highway code, so the reservations that the U.K. has made seemed eminently sensible to us because it basically mirrors our highway code we have at the moment.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Given that we have what seem to be progressive problems with parking on main roads, do you think parking lights over here could be an advantage, whereas they seem to be reserved out of the convention at the moment by the U.K.?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It does not prevent you from bringing in legislation to require them but what it means is you do not have to do it.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Also the U.K. will be presenting our proposals to the United Nations, so mirroring the U.K. in that respect is quite a good idea.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Do we have the option to make any reservations contrary to what the U.K. are proposing?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, we have done it. There are a couple in there where we are slightly different from the U.K. but because our highway code is so close to the U.K.'s in any event, that is why we do not have many.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Just to go back to the emissions, do you think this testing is going to cut all that down really, really drastically? Is there any evidence in other countries that when they do this testing the emissions are good because at the moment the global warming system seems to think otherwise? So do we think that this is going to save the world?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It is a start. You have to start somewhere and currently in Jersey there is no control on what comes out of the back of a car.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

You have these machines outside the market and you have ...

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes, we have testing, yes.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

How is that recording and how is that doing?

We have problems with air quality within St. Helier .

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Yes, because that is where all the traffic is.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Not just St. Helier . As Constable of St. Saviour , we have several hotspots, namely Georgetown and La Route du Fort, obviously through the tunnel. That is being monitored, too. But I am encouraged by more and more electric cars coming online now so that is certainly a step in the right direction, which will also help with vehicle testing in the future. Obviously, no engine, no oil leaks, no exhaust or any pollution whatsoever, so it will be brakes, lights and electrical system checked.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

The advantages that Vienna will bring will be ensuring that the vehicles that we are circulating on our roads are running as efficiently as possible to the standards that they were manufactured to. In particular, where people have cut off catalytic converters, where people have changed motorbike exhausts to create noise pollution, those people will be picked up and they will have to rectify their vehicles or take them off the road. So there is an advantage, I think, both in terms of noise pollution but also illegal modifications as well as those vehicles that are not running efficiently to make sure that they have good spark plugs, that the engine is running as efficiently as it possibly can for the standards it was manufactured to.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Do you anticipate creating behavioural change by potentially tweaking the emissions requirements, shall we say, in any way, which you could do quite easily in the future?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

You cannot do it for the vehicles you have already because you would need to actually change engines or change parts to get them to perform differently but, of course, you can do for future imports. You can do that with ... there are various levers which the Minister has available to him or Treasury has available to them to incentivise that and that is obviously a political question and I will not go there. [Laughter]

The Minister for Infrastructure:

You can take cars back to their original specification basically.

Group Director - Regulation, Growth Housing and Environment:

I think the answer is it will certainly help. If we have engines and cars running more efficiently, then it will help air quality in Jersey. The biggest issue we have, if we do have an issue of air quality, is around vehicle emissions. That is where most of our air quality problems are seen. We do not have many industrial premises that create point source pollution but it is mainly vehicle pollution. We see that in certain bits of the road network and the diffusion tubes we have around town pick that up.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Concentration.

Group Director - Regulation, Growth Housing and Environment:

Yes, some of the work we are now doing with schools around air quality. There is a lot of interest in this area to monitor air quality around our schools. So, yes, I think the simple answer is it will help if you have cars running more efficiently and vehicles running more efficiently. They will pollute less.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Given that you have been testing commercial vehicles for ... is it a year now? How long have you been doing that? I just wondered have you noticed any vehicles not coming up to scratch or many vehicles not coming up to scratch?

Male Speaker:

I cannot give you a figure but there are a few that have not come up to scratch, that have been rejected.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

What we can say, though, from the recent road safety week was that out of the 500-odd cars and vehicles we stopped we had to issue improvement notices I think to 124, but of the commercial vehicles, and these are obviously vans, commercial, not heavy, half of them required to have improvement standards and that is worrying because they are the vehicles that are doing the most miles. They are the ones that are generating the most pollution by necessity because they are the ones that are used all the time.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

In terms of the heavy commercials, the trucks which have been in the past quite guilty of pollution, the process at the moment is if they are given an improvement notice they get sent away. Do they tend to come back, do you find, or are they scrapped?

Male Speaker:

No, they come back. The majority come back.

The Connétable of Grouville :

I think this question was answered before when I asked about garages doing the testing. Do garages test for emissions at the moment?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I am not sure. Maybe some of the larger garages do an emissions test on a service?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We are not aware of them. No, I am not aware of them doing it, to be honest with you.

[10:45]

Tony:

Commercial garages do.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Commercial do, yes.

The Connétable of Grouville :

They have to because they come for a test, so if we introduce testing garages will also have to have testing equipment. So they will have to have that whether they do the testing or not. They will need to have it.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As we have said, we do not have heavy industry in Jersey so if we can get on to air quality ...

The Connétable of Grouville :

I am all for improving or reducing emissions, do not get me wrong, but I just wondered how you go about it. The other thing is emissions is quite controversial in some respects because I think it was Volkswagen, their stated figures were different to what they actually were. Presumably, you have to make some allowance for that within the testing.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, there are protocols on how you undertake the emissions testing.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: That was a worldwide scandal, was it not?

The Connétable of Grouville :

Absolutely, yes, and I suspect they are not necessarily the only manufacturer who bend the rules.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think the point has been well and truly made with Volkswagen.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Yes, but you are testing them now and you cannot expect an owner who bought a car in good faith to reach emission tests that are not achievable in reality.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Absolutely, yes.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

There is a peculiarity to traffic in Jersey, particularly for diesel engines. The diesel engines work best while running on a constant throttle over a long period of time where the regeneration on the gas cleaning equipment all works, particularly when you have that blue. In Jersey, because we do not have motorways and we do not have those long journeys, the vehicles are going up and down the roadway all the time so there are challenges with emissions. It is something we have to potentially address moving forward because it is hard to get compliance for some of the bigger vehicles that were fitted with extraordinarily good attenuation but the difficulty is because we do not get those long journeys at constant throttle where the temperatures get up to get the regeneration going, they sometimes have problems with their particulates, but again that is something we have to look at.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Could I ask the Minister ... you were speaking about electric vehicles. When they brought in electric bikes there was an incentive. Are you hoping to do that with the garages, to have electric cars to dangle a carrot for everybody to buy one?

The Minister for Infrastructure: You mean subsidising electric cars?

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Yes.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have not gone down that road at the moment. We have had an arrangement with the J.E.C. (Jersey Electricity Company) where we have put 2 charging points in all of our multi-storey car parks, but it is something we are looking at.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We are giving electric cars a year's free parking or half-price parking. That is worth ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Oh, yes, electric cars get a year's free parking.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: So that is worth quite a lot of money.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Yes, because you have cut the eco ... one could park in a car park if you had a friendly "green" car and that payment was withdrawn.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

No. So what happened was that more and more vehicles were qualifying so we lifted up the bar to ensure that it was only the ultra-low-emissions vehicles that qualified.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Victims of our own success in that respect.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Yes, which is a bit of a shame because you are wanting people to do these things and as soon as they comply you raise the bar. You change the goalposts and I just find that a bit unfair.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Because we are trying to encourage clean air so we are trying to push people more down to the ... as close to zero emissions as possible. So now electric vehicles receive a ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Do you think that was probably more of a civil service response than an entrepreneurial response?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

No. I think if you look at the development of cars and emissions of those cars, you were talking about performance cars meeting our standards in terms of emissions and it felt wrong in terms of trying to get people to be environmentally proactive. What we have to be careful of is to focus on electric cars, which I fully support. There is also electric public transport. There are electric bicycles, which was a great success and we would like to start that again. That was a massive impact on people's lives in Jersey and changed how people perceived electric bicycles. I think schemes like that should be all done together as a package, not just electric cars, which is then people's second and third car and they leave their big car for the weekends and their holidays. I think we have to have a different view. I am 100 per cent behind electric cars, but I think there is also a lot more opportunity in terms of other forms of transport, particularly public transport and individual transport.

Group Director - Regulation, Growth Housing and Environment:

I think that is right. We have had, when we were formerly in the Environment Department, quite a lot of pressure to answer the question about electric car subsidy. As Government, we have to ensure that any incentives that we give we are guaranteed to go to the outcomes that we want rather than the second or third car purchase. I think that is something that we would want the market to correct. The market is going to deliver cheaper electric cars. Electric vehicles today are cheaper than they were 3 or 4 years ago and there is a crossing point in terms of the cost of carbon versus the cost of electricity. I think ultimately as Government we will see the market providing a solution to electric vehicles because it just makes common sense or consumer sense to buy a vehicle like that now at some point, wherever people's price tolerances are, because it is cheaper to run, it is cheaper to service and it gives you a better outcome. I think ultimately the market will deliver us a free policy, so I would call it a free policy. In our energy plan for Government low-emission vehicles effectively is classed as a free policy because the market will deliver this for us over a period of time when these vehicles become cheaper. Consumers will buy more of them and we will deliver the policy aims that way without Government intervention.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

That crossing over between carbon and electricity at the moment is predicted to be around about 2022, 2023, so it is near future in terms of vehicle purchase.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

You could argue, in fact, that an electric car would have to go down the testing procedure the same as everybody else but it ought to be cheaper because you are not doing an emissions test.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes, that is right.

Group Director - Regulation, Growth Housing and Environment:

Yes, and there is a lot less moving parts in an electric vehicle so they are ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Just to go back to 2-stroke motorcycles, are there many of those around still?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Mopeds mainly, and they will be a thing of the past eventually, will they not? I do not think there are many manufacturers continuing with 2-stroke. I sort of miss them in some ways but they are not the best thing for pollution.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : It will be in a jam jar.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

People going electric is great. What I find fascinating is you get big companies, huge European companies like BMW and Land Rover, who will be going electric within the next few years, which is very encouraging.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Going back to the incorporating the test as part of the annual service, we have spoken about these options that you are looking at at the moment, but to incorporate one with the servicing is clearly not going to reduce the cost for motorists. Have you got a view on that?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

When we do our procurement, as when we did the Liberty bus contract, when we did the pay by phone contract, there were lots of options we started off with. What we are obliged to do by the financial codes is to find the best value option for the public of Jersey and that is what the procurement process will be designed to provide. So if that provides the best value, that may well be the solution, but it has to be demonstrably and subject to robust public scrutiny as such that it can provide the best value.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Do you think that going down the independent garage side, would you envisage some sort of annual licensing approach, some sort of annual inspection, so that they could provide the certification?

Group Director - Regulation, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes. If I look at some comparables and have a look at the weighbridges as an example, Trading Standards will regularly visit weighbridges to test that they are working correctly as a bit of kit. It will be a similar approach. We will have to go out. That is what weights and measures are prone to, whether it be a set of scales in a supermarket all the way through to an industrial weighbridge. It will have to be a similar approach, that there will be a periodic test of the testers so that the customer can be assured that they are giving them the right result.

The Connétable of Grouville :

But as you said earlier, you cannot really go to the garages at the moment because they do not have the equipment to do the ultimate testing.

Group Director - Regulation, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes. For instance, if there is a test centre set up, and it is a private test centre, Government will have to inspect that through its regulatory arm.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

That would be part of the tender process. People will have an opportunity to gather their costs for equipment and submit what they think that they can do it for. That will be part of the work that will be done should this be approved by the States.

The Connétable of Grouville :

One submission we had, which I think a lot of people will have some sympathy with, is that M.O.T. testing is final. A car could pass the 3 yearly test or 5 yearly test, but the following day the car can be no longer roadworthy. It can go over a pothole and the lights can be out of ...

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Correct.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: It is like any audit.

The Connétable of Grouville :

It is not going to cure a great deal.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It starts to change culture. There are many people over here who never get their vehicle serviced. This will start, hopefully, engendering that culture of regular maintenance for vehicles, knowing that you have this coming up. We can monitor the effectiveness of it through various indicators such as the number of vehicles that are checked and are found to be defective. We can see if that is falling. We could look at road traffic accidents where a defective vehicle is part of the contributory causes. So the sort of leading and lagging indicators we can look at.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We have evidence as well from probably the most extreme cases, such as motorcycles and some commercial vehicles where mechanics and reputable garages have had these vehicles brought in and they have been appalled by the standards. I forwarded photographs to D.V.S. a few years ago where a motorcycle's brake pads had gone and the cylinders had worn out on to the disc and chains where there are no teeth left on sprockets and commercial vehicles where severed air brake lines which have cracked have not been replaced because the operator did not want to spend the money. It is behaviours like that which I think we will see very quickly, certainly on the commercial vehicles, a big change and I think a really positive change for Jersey, where we will have a way of stopping this happening and giving the mechanics a bit more comfort that they are maintaining vehicles that are fit for purpose.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Do you think we are susceptible at the moment to getting ex-U.K. vehicles over here which perhaps might not survive their next M.O.T.?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

They have had a long life, some of them. We have had a race to the bottom for a long time in terms of vehicle standards. So if you are in a commercial business, if you are running vehicles at the end of their life, that is a cheaper business than running new vehicles. Now, if you look at operators with a longer term view, they are buying newer vehicles. There is a massive difference. You can buy a truck for £5,000 and you can buy a truck for £100,000; the business model is very different. The more we can incentivise companies to buy the trucks at a higher value, which have better standards, and the more equal we make that playing field for them the better, because the cost of operating that truck is the driver and the cost of the truck and the depreciation over its life. Buying vehicles at the end of their commercial life from another jurisdiction feels a bit odd. It feels as though we are a third world country, not the first world country which we are.

The Connétable of Grouville :  

Am I right in saying that all vehicles that are imported from the U.K., second-hand vehicles, get tested in order to be reregistered? So people cannot import cars that are perhaps of dubious quality?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:  We do a road worthiness test, yes, but that does not ...

The Connétable of Grouville :

So you cannot import poor quality cars and run them and reregister them here because they have to be inspected at D.V.S.?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:  

You can import cars of any age and vintage or trucks of any age and vintage.

The Connétable of Grouville : But they have to be inspected here.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: But they have to be inspected.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Do you think our present vehicle inspection test is on a par with an English M.O.T. test? Better? Worse?

Male Speaker:

Yes, it is better. Our construction and use laws are slightly above that. We carry out integrity checks for all vehicles coming in from the U.K.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Do M.O.T. garages have the test facilities to test for lights, alignment, brakes and emissions? Is that part of the M.O.T. test.?

Male Speaker: In the U.K.

The Connétable of Grouville :

So all garages have that equipment?

Tony:

It is Europe-wide.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I was going to say before when I was previously Minister of what was then T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services) before we did the heavy goods vehicle inspections, I could tell you some horror stories. I will not mention the person's name, but I was invited to inspect one of their trucks and I said: "No, I am not an engineer." He said: "Just have a look, see what you can see." I walked round and I said: "Well, I can see 8 points here that would fail this." He said: "Someone has hit a granite wall, so there is one headlight pointing up, one pointing down. The footstep leading into the cab has been sheared off, so if you hit anybody with that you are going to take their leg off." I said: "I can put my hand between the tyre and the canvas. You are dripping enough hydraulic fluid out of the back of this thing to take anybody off a motorbike or cause a car crash behind you. You have a lighting cluster held up with a cable tie." It was truly awful. So bringing in vehicle testing, especially for heavy goods vehicles and public service vehicles, is definitely a good idea. I would like to see it rolled out with cars as well.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Just picking up on that really, in the response to our questions you stated there is no single measure that will on its own improve Jersey road safety issues, rather there is a range of measures which will contribute to marginal improvements. As a whole, can these significantly improve road safety? Do you think roadworthiness will do that or is it just one of the small tools in the armoury?

[11:00]

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think that it can contribute to that and improve the environment. You are right, we have done an analysis of the accidents that occur in Jersey. The trouble with vehicle defects is they are difficult to pick up because they are not always what the police are looking for. Often in the case of motorbikes they are destroyed during the actual crash. So apart from those vehicles that are subject to a forensic examination or where they obviously have low tyre tread, it is not always picked up. But from our results we can see in the last 5 years that there were 20 injury road traffic accidents which have involved a vehicle with a defect. If those can be prevented that will save the Island about £180,000 in terms of community costs of those accidents. That may well be understating the issue. I think we will see whether that is the case or not once we have introduced it, if we introduce it, and we will see what happens to accident figures. It is a bit like the Sky team when they were training for the Tour de France. They would not shake hands because they did not want to get infections. They wanted to be on their top form. Where we are in terms of road safety, you have to do all of these different things. You have to look at the engineering of the road, you have to look at enforcement, you have to look at education, and you have to look at the quality of the vehicles circulating; you cannot not do any one of them. There is not one single big win among them. The effects are cumulative by trying to address all of those points.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

We have police road checks here and I would like to hear from Deputy Raymond whether he thinks the Honorary Police do a good job stopping the traffic in road checks. I know they go around for the basics, but do you think they are very helpful?

Deputy H.C. Raymond of Trinity :

Yes. Over the years, Deputy , you know I mean, I have 3 Constables sitting in front of me. All parishes ... we have 2 per parish now, 2 per parish per year, and some of the people that we have caught I think the biggest problem, and it is always the one that I have always gone down and discussed it with Constables, is that one of the difficult ones is the rust in some of these vehicles, whether it be lorry, vans, whatever. That is not easy to see because they cover it up with rugs and seats and goodness knows what else. We do the normal checks with lights and: "Put your footbrakes on" and all this sort of thing. But that has to continue. In fact, I do not see why we do not do it more. The conversation has always been if we can hit some of these people early on, especially when they are going to work or coming home from work, I think it and it puts people off and it makes people then realise their car has to be up to date. If you take the thing just I notice with the statistics that came out from the police check there were 4 cars and 2 lorries taken off the road and you had 12 impounded. I think there will be ... my view is, personally, I think there will be more cars taken off the road once this comes in, because I think people will suddenly realise: "Hang on a minute, we have to get our car looked over."

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I asked a question in the States the other day to the Minister for Foreign Affairs whether there have been any communications with France on this and the answer was no. Given that most vehicles going to Europe from here end up in France, do you think we should have a communication with the French Government on their stance with regard to this?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think at the moment things are very sensitive in terms of negotiations, particularly around the access for commercial vehicles to the U.K., to France, and I think it would be premature to do so. What I can say, I think, is that Vienna completely safeguards your right to circulate in France and those other countries that we do not have any formal agreement with whatsoever.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Just picking up on the issue of international driving permits, it seems as though our present ones will work for France under the Geneva Convention, but if you were going to Germany, for instance, you need the Vienna Convention one so is that ... how many do we need?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, so where countries are signatories to the Vienna Convention you automatically default to the higher one, which is good because those international driving permits last for 3 years rather than 12 months. Because France is a signatory to Vienna, you would drive in France under Vienna. With regards to Spain, it is not signed up to Vienna, so that would be Geneva. So in theory, at least, you would need to take a Geneva permit with you if you were driving through Spain. In Eire it is slightly different because there is something called the Belfast Accord and that is a bilateral agreement between the British Isles about how Irish traffic would be treated. That will not be determined until the terms of Brexit have been determined.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Just one last question, if I may: European vehicles coming here, do you envisage any testing programme for them?

The Minister for Infrastructure: They are already tested.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, they can already be inspected as part of the random road checks, but you would default to what Vienna provides, which is if they are from a Vienna signatory country you would accept that they are from that jurisdiction and that they are inspected. Of course, if you know someone is coming from a country which does not have that requirement, then as a police force I would have thought you would be more interested in those vehicles if you know that they likely have a low standard.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I think essentially the bulk of problem vehicles that I have seen are probably Polish, Romanian and Portuguese, so those would be the ones I think we would be interested in.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

They are all signatories to Vienna, so they are at the higher convention already.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The Republic of Ireland has also been testing since 2000.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

You are dead right. Many of the countries that are within the European Union ... so within the European Union they are required already to test their vehicles every 2 years. That is part of the agreement for the common transport area. So they do not need to necessarily be a signatory to the convention. Most of the countries are but they are already testing to that higher level already.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Can you just clarify that? If you are going to France you would be all right with Vienna, but if we go to Spain we might need Geneva? So we might have to have 2?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

No, Vienna is a higher level, if you like.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

You are right, but in theory, and that is the advice that the U.K. is giving its citizens as well. That is one of the anomalies of Brexit, unfortunately. Basically, the anomaly for Brexit - and you can see it in the U.K. technical note - is because Spain could sign up to Vienna tomorrow if it chose to. It does not need to, but it is part of the common European transport area. That means in technicality terms, yes, in theory you should have a Geneva permit and that is what the U.K. is advising its citizens.

The Connétable of Grouville :

It is quite important for the Constables when they issue those.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes.

The Connétable of Grouville :

We are going to need to have 2 different licences.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

You are right and it is a nuisance for people who are driving down to, say, Portugal, for instance, who will need to have both, and that is something that has been ... unless the U.K. can agree some sensible transitionary agreements, that is where we are to have, say, common access to the European transport area.

The Connétable of Grouville :

I am not disputing for one minute you are right because you know more about it than me, but we need to have 2 lots of licences in our parish halls next April 1st.

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes. I would wait and see what comes out in the actual practical arrangements. We could speak to Spain and maybe get some sort of administrative arrangement where we do not have to do that rather than ... but that would not be through international treaty. That would just be an administrative arrangement.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Yes. Is that the only country we have to worry about?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

The only other one I can think of really is what happens in Eire and that is dependent on what comes out of this Belfast Accord and what is agreed on that.

Male Speaker:

Sorry, can I just add we are keeping the secretary for the Comité des Connétable s fully informed as we go on that?

Director, Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes, I was going to say that is ... yes.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I am conscious of the time. I thank you for attending this morning. From our point of view, we anticipate making comment for the paper. We are aware of the timescale and we do not want to hold it up. There are one or 2 issues which we will hopefully contribute to and see how the debate goes on the day. Thank you.

[11:09]