This content has been automatically generated from the original PDF and some formatting may have been lost. Let us know if you find any major problems.
Text in this format is not official and should not be relied upon to extract citations or propose amendments. Please see the PDF for the official version of the document.
Name of Panel
Gender Pay Gap Review Panel
Gender Pay Gap
Witness: Chairman, States Employment Board
Thursday, 21st March 2019
Panel:
Deputy K.F. Morel of St. Lawrence (Vice-Chairman) Deputy J.H. Perchard of St. Saviour
Witnesses:
Senator J.A.N. Le Fondré, Chairman, States Employment Board
Mr. C. Stephenson , Senior Human Resources Manager
Ms. J. McGeachie, Director, People Services
Ms. D. Drieu, Head of Human Resources Business Partnering and Change
[15:06]
Deputy K.F. Morel of St. Lawrence (Vice-Chairman):
Thank you so much for coming along. Sorry, we are much depleted today. Illness has eaten into our ranks, so it is Deputy Perchard and myself.
Chairman, States Employment Board: Keep it to yourself, please.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I am perfectly healthy, thank you. Thank you for coming along and I know this is the second time we have spoken to you as the Gender Pay Gap Review Panel. But for the record, you are here as chair of the States Employment Board as opposed to Chief Minister directly, so thank you. We will start by going around the table just giving our names.
Deputy J.H. Perchard of St. Saviour :
Deputy Perchard, member of the Gender Pay Gap Review Panel.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Deputy Kirsten Morel , vice-chair for the Gender Pay Gap Review Panel.
Senior H.R. Manager:
Chris Stephenson , Senior H.R. (Human Resources) Manager.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
Senator John Le Fondré, chairman of the States Employment Board.
Director, People Services:
Jacquie McGeachie, director of People Services.
Head of H.R. Business Partnering and Change:
Denise Drieu, Head of H.R. Business Partnering and Change
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Thank you very much. If we just go through obviously, we are going to explore principally the States of Jersey but there are also questions which link to the wider Island community as well. To the best of your knowledge, has the States Employment Board ever come and discussed gender diversity within the Government of Jersey?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
So obviously, I only took on chair in December so in most of the meetings we have been having recently, it has been more about the matters that, for example, are facing us next Tuesday; in other words, obviously the pay reward negotiations that have been going on. I believe it has been raised previously but I have to pass over to Chris on that one. I was going to say in the period from June to December I am sure it was raised in the areas under general policies.
Senior H.R. Manager:
Just for people's reference, I look after S.E.B. (States Employment Board) and sort of secretariat of S.E.B. and have done for this current S.E.B. and the previous one as well. Being candid, it has not been a specific item but it is something that the board are continually conscious of in terms when they have discussed pay. Obviously, people will recall that the previous board and this board, to an extent, have been very keen to resolve the equal pay for equal value issue, which also plays into the wider dialogue about gender pay. So throughout probably since workforce modernisation first started in 2012/13 through to now, that issue has been there in the background as a golden thread running through all the pay arrangements that have been considered, albeit obviously the unions rejected the workforce modernisation model last year.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
Certainly, I know in discussions with officers at various points it does keep coming up, if that makes sense.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Sorry, what does?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
As in the issues around gender pay gap and diversity.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
It is good to know they are there and thereabouts but would you agree that the Government of Jersey is well placed to set an example within the Island as a leading employer in addressing this gender pay gap?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
(a) I think we are, (b) I think we probably do. If you look at the overall things that contribute to not having a gender pay gap, which is anything from flexible working and things like that, and then to trying to encourage people. I suspect we might get that on the list of things I had about ... we can refer to it now, if you wish. In terms of things that we were doing to try and encourage people and women to push themselves forward more as well. I am using the wrong terminology as ever. But I know both Denise and Jacquie were involved. I think "Being Bold", is the expression, was the talks yesterday. I think we have got an internal programme starting tomorrow, which Jacquie and Denise can refer to.
Director, People Services:
Head of Business Partnering and Change attended an event this morning called "Being Bold", which you may have seen advertised. Tomorrow I am co-chairing a meeting with another colleague that brings together a group of senior female directors to start talking about women in leadership in the context of the Government of Jersey. Just having a general first meeting, a bit of a debate about what we mean by women in leadership. I have a view that it may end up with an agenda that looks something like mentoring and coaching females in the organisation that are more junior. What they see are the barriers or the successes to them moving forward through the organisation. So, this is something that we have just started and we are hoping that we will gain some traction from that initiative.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Do you intend to invite any senior male employees to this group?
Director, People Services:
We have not for tomorrow. We have kept it into let us just explore what we think the issue is. Is there an issue? What are we trying to solve here? Just having that conversation first. We are not going to - to your point, Deputy Perchard - isolate men from the group. We might then have a steering group that looks at how we take this forward and everybody would be welcome to be participating in that at a senior level. To your point, it is important that we do not then proactively do something for females that then isolate males. Everybody has a contribution to make in that, absolutely.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Also, of course, a meaningful change will only happen if we take everybody with us.
Director, People Services: Correct. Absolutely.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
But I do understand the need to consult the relevant group first before widening.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Just for clarity, "Being Bold", what does that refer to? What is "being bold" in this context?
Head, H.R. Business Partner:
It was an event I attended today, which was run by the Diversity Forum, but which the Government of Jersey have been supportive and one of the speakers was Saboohi Famili, who is one of our tier 2 group directors for further and Higher education, skills and young people. I think I have said that the wrong way round. There were a number of Government of Jersey employees from across the organisation who attended that event too today.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Also just from a clarity perspective; Jacquie, you mentioned directors. Do you mean directors within this organisation as opposed to directors ...?
Director, People Services: Correct.
Deputy K.F. Morel : Thank you.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Sorry, just to clarify, just because we have an internal parliamentary group that is the Diversity Forum, that was the Diversity Network.
Head, H.R. Business Partner: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
How much influence does the States Employment Board have on gender balance on boards of arm's length organisations?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I am glad you asked me that question. Directly, the States Employment Board does not have that much influence because obviously they all come under the auspices of - if we are shareholders obviously - the Minister for Treasury and Resources as the shareholder on behalf of the States. However, I did write to ... I will read it out to you. On 8th March I asked for the chief executive to send the following to all the arm's length organisations. I believe it is also meant to go to not just the owned States entities but other similar bodies.
[15:15]
"Dear all. I am writing in my capacity as both Chief Minister and chairman of the States Employment Board to request that you review the processes of appointments and reappointments." I will just say it was not just prompted by the work that you are all doing which is all, I have said previously, most welcome because it does give us a focus and it is all coming together probably about the right time. But it has also been the issue that people ... a lot of very familiar names and faces keep coming up on various boards at different times. It is how you get that wider bit. But anyway. So to continue: "It is my belief that we could do better to reach the broader selection of the population for recruitment of boards. This is compounded by the fact that we do not always conduct a full recruitment process
when reappointing board members." This has been prompted by the fact it had at relatively short notice 3 or 4 reappointments and wondering what was the process going through. "While there is no doubt that we have excellent boards I do feel that we should be considering more prominently the advantages of having a greater pool of candidates to select from in the future. As much notice as possible needs to be provided for the approval process for appointments. It should not be automatically assumed that all reappointments will be approved by default. There have also been several cases where the approval for appointments or reappointments was required at short notice, which is not good practice. I would welcome your comments and thoughts on what processes could be put in place to achieve a greater range of candidates applying for positions." Really it is to set a marker down that if I do get a request for a reappointment, which sometimes does happen, that it (a) has to be longer than a week's notice, which has happened on a couple of occasions, I think recently.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I think I raised that in the Assembly. We have even had to do them after the dates.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
Did you raise it with me? I do not recall that one. But the point was ...
Deputy K.F. Morel :
It was said in the Assembly.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
It certainly was not, as far as I was concerned, particularly acceptable that ... I do not like being asked to rubberstamp and that was what it was starting to feel like. I did discuss it I think back in February with the Appointments Commission and that was one of the routes we have chosen to go for. There is also a way of raising it. There is a conference coming up that she is doing at some point or other with what they call the independent bodies, so that will be raised at that point as well. It is about putting a marker down that things are going to start changing.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Just to explore that a little further. Another aspect - I appreciate this is about gender - is the length of terms that particularly non-executive directors serve. There seems to have been a practice of allowing non-execs to serve for 9 years when good practice and good governance guides suggest 6 years should be the maximum. Is this something you are looking at?
Chairman, States Employment Board: I was going to 7, but yes.
Seven years but less than 9.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
What I do know, and I have discussed this a variety of times, my feedback from the Appointments Commission is that - Chris might want to correct me on this - but I get the impression they are relatively comfortable with it, if that makes sense. I think they always steer to whatever the practice is. It does depend on what the original propositions were when the people were appointed, if that makes sense. I think I have had a couple where it has been 9 years but because it has been ... that is effectively what was referred to in one of the earlier propositions. Does that need to be shortened? I have 7 years in my head, which I think I picked up from the Appointments Commission but I could be wrong. I will hand over to Chris.
Senior H.R. Manager:
I will just add to that, if I may. I tend to agree with you, 9 is probably the absolute maximum and then maybe the odd time when that is appropriate because of some special skill. But mostly nowadays, certainly in the U.K. (United Kingdom) public service, it is 6 years, as you say; 2 terms of 3. If you look at the Institute of Directors, I am a chartered director so I am familiar with how that works. They would say something 6 to 7 in the range that you are talking about. So I think, as with all of these things, it is the organisations and the boards that have. As the opportunity comes up to replace people, based on whatever their original term of service was, then I think the expectation is that we will be adjusting those or help supporting the adjustment of those to reflect the good practice that you are referring to. But I think we would recognise you cannot change those things overnight. Especially people who are voluntary in some of the areas, not getting paid appointments. Clearly, you do not want to disadvantage them or upset them, particularly because they have put a lot of personal time into that process. Timing is the issue, is it not, which you would accept?
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Your letter is most welcome but something it has not quite addressed, and I want to ask you about, is the attempt to reach a target of gender balance at the board level. What is your view on setting gender targets to aspire to on our boards?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
We have touched on it briefly in the past, I think. The trouble is if you go to targets you will end positive discrimination ultimately, which is in itself - and it can be for the right reasons - discriminatory, if that makes sense.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
I am afraid to me it does not; could you explain what you mean by that?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
What I was trying to say is that I would have thought it was always the case of you go for whoever is the best candidates and what the process is, is trying to get more in this instance, women applying as candidates and how you get that process to come up to their view or, for want of a better expression, pipeline of candidates coming in has to have a better balance. The question is, which I was interpreting from what you were saying, was implying that you should be going further to have effectively a positive discrimination in terms of ... for the sake of argument, if the male candidate is better than the woman candidate but you would go for the woman candidate because you wanted women on the board. So if I misinterpreted it ...
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
No, that is not how gender diversity on boards is commonly perceived and pursued by the business in best practice.
Chairman, States Employment Board: It was the positive target bit.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
I said "gender targets". I did not say "positive" or the words "positive discrimination".
Deputy K.F. Morel : Or quotas.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Or quotas.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
You definitely did not say "quotas". I would agree with that.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
But what I would like to pose to you is: do you agree that you can only choose the best person from the pool that you were given?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
Yes. The issue is to get more people and candidates into the pool.
Indeed, because if you do not turn over enough rocks you cannot possibly say you have got the best person for the job. All you can say is: "I have the best person out of the people I have seen."
Chairman, States Employment Board: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
The large problem we have is that we do not see balance on the shortlist. But that is not simply about ... I should be asking questions. I just want to clarify my position underlying the question. It is the fact that - I am trying to be really concise - but basically it is not just a case of saying to women: "Well you need to be more confident and you need to lean into the process" because there are plenty of women who could take on these roles, and who do have the confidence to do so. It is not that all women have low self-esteem. It is about changing what we view as the criteria to be the best person for the job. Do you acknowledge the criteria we sometimes set is inherently masculine?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I think we were certainly aware of the issues around, let us call it, gender neutral hiring process, and things like that, and that is around ... and I think we have done things like taking out date of birth, taking out names, taking out schools, I believe. I am looking down at Denise for some extra details. It is that kind of territory and I think we already do some of that.
Head, H.R. Business Partner:
We do some of it but we are investing in a new system at the moment and we hope to go further. At the moment we take out date of birth but we do not take out names and schools. Although depending on what level the appointment is because if we do senior appointments quite often we will use an executive search company who will generally put the data forward without names and just call candidates - A, B and C - and they will do that at long list and short list. But when we are doing internal recruitment at the moment, names are included, but we are hoping to make adjustments because we are investing in a new process in the system. As a result, we should be able to make those adjustments.
Chairman, States Employment Board: So, we should be moving to that.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Yes, we have issues beyond gender when it comes to other kinds of discrimination.
Head, H.R. Business Partner:
I would say that we have quite clear rules on how we run processes. We do expect balanced panels for interviews, balanced boards, so therefore they are involved in the long list and short list processes. Also, as part of the actual process of interview, we expect that all candidates are asked the same questions and that those relate to the criteria of the job. We do audit that process.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
That is fantastic. May I just dig into that ... sorry, would you like to add something?
Director, People Services:
I just want to clarify that we do not support the arm's length organisations or the external board. We are just talking about the Government.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
You said that the candidates are asked the same questions pertaining to the criteria of the job. I am interested in the other end. What you are doing at the recruitment end about anonymising candidates and making sure that there is equal pay, asking questions is excellent but there is evidence, and research shows, that part of the problem starts at the advertisement stage, where the language of a job advertisement or the questions asked about ... the criteria of a job and the questions asked about the criteria are skewed towards a particular gender and at the senior role, typically male. So we see things like typically male language like "able to influence people" and "confident with leaders" in job descriptions, which I have seen on some of our Team Jersey job descriptions. I am not saying women are not and cannot do those things, but in our cultural society we do encourage men ... those kinds of things do appeal to men and those kinds of things do put women off. Evidence shows that. What are we doing to address that side of recruiting women?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I think in terms of the advertising language stuff that is definitely going to be an operational level. I am going to point to Chris initially, I think.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
What parts can S.E.B. play then in influencing that operational process?
Senior H.R. Manager:
I think the point that you are making, the role of S.E.B. is quite explicit and quite clear. It is setting the strategic tone and strategic direction that it wants the Government of Jersey workforce to follow. At the end of the day the S.E.B. is made up of 5 politicians. They are not operational people. It is
the job of officers to address some of the issues that you are referring to here under the overall direction of the States Employment Board as the employer. The things that you are referring to, I think we have just brought in a specific role. It is part of the new target operating model for the H.R. function, which is the head of resourcing, with a very specific brief that will address many of the issues that you have identified. Again, as you would expect, this is an evolutionary process so we are on a journey. You will not affect the type of change that you are talking about overnight, but you can ensure that the direction of travel is in the right direction.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
You can certainly accelerate it to a great degree.
Senior H.R. Manager:
I would not disagree with that at all. But I am just making the general point that you are on a journey here, that is the way you address these issues.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
The States Employment Board would expect, particularly given the make-up of the board, that those things are being done, which is the point I think ... that would be the role of the board and the officers should be implementing.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Could I just ask you: you mentioned we are on a journey? One of the elements of concern certainly as a review panel, looking at the past year or so, is obviously the director general recruitment, which has just taken place, so we have had a whole range. I believe it is 8 positions that have been recruited for in the past 18 months and only one was female, at the end of the day. Only one successful candidate was female. Would you say that the journey that Chris has referred to started now rather than 18 months ... is it the case that, to be honest, this journey has started pretty much in recent times since that recruitment process because it does not seem to have been in place prior to that recruitment?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I do not think it is that simple, and I will hand over to Jacquie in a minute because I know she has the numbers at her fingertips and obviously touched on it last time round as well. I think I have been quizzed on that. Obviously, of the 8 that we are talking about, 4 were internal and happened to be men. It only leaves you 4, as it were, to play with, for want of a better expression.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
It could have been internal and had been women, regardless of where they come from.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I am talking about the actual role was an internal appointment and the postholder was essentially appointed internally. I will let Jacquie explain on that side. The person in that position happened to be male. So the other 4, where it was a new post, is an external process so it was one in 4 effectively. But obviously at the tier 2 it is near enough a 50:50 success rate. What we believe as part of that is the thing we touched on in the previous hearing, part of this is a societal generational cultural change bit.
[15:30]
So you are still having people coming through the system. In other words, at the particular level you are talking about, because of the generational structure that you are dealing with effectively, many more men were applying. So of the stats, 188 males applied, this is on the ... this is the tier 2, is it not?
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Can we stick to tier 1 please?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
They kind of link all together. Eighty-two were female, which is 30 per cent of applicants, but of the 14 roles that were appointed it is 8 and 6, so 42 per cent of females were appointed.
Deputy K.F. Morel : At tier 2?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
Yes. Relative to a 30 per cent pool that came in. So proportionately more women were appointed out of the available pool. But obviously at the higher level, as we said, the issue was, particularly inherently, with the existing postholders who were appointed internally so effectively were already on-Island. I will hand over to Jacquie to expand on that a bit.
Director, People Services:
Coming back to the tier 1. In terms of the 4 that were internal appointments, we have a policy when we are managing change in an organisation, where somebody's role that they currently do is nearly the same as a role that we have put forward as a new role is called ring fencing. Four of those people at a senior level were partially matched and therefore went through an interview process. So those 4 were male. They were already in the system. The opportunity to create a gender balance at the top of the organisation was contained to 4 roles, of which we have appointed one female.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Does that fill you with great hope for the journey that you are on?
Director, People Services:
I am obviously going to say it is a journey. You still have to appoint the right person for the role, to John's earlier point. Yes, we can do more at a senior level, absolutely. Hence, my previous statement about working now with the more junior members of staff that are female to start coaching and developing and start thinking of what their career path is that takes them probably to a head of service role or a director role over the next 2 to 5 years, depending on what their career trajectory is.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Where I have got concerns was when the chairman was talking about this internal hiring. Take a large new department like Growth, Housing and Environment, probably up to 4 existing postholders could have become the director general, I imagine, because you brought so many individual departments together that any one of those directors, chief officers, could have moved up to the director general role. But obviously they were all men as well.
Director, People Services: Correct.
Chairman, States Employment Board: That illustrates the problem.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Exactly. Could you not have looked outside for women in that respect? The truth is when you did look outside you only brought in men except for one woman and that was basically the last appointment after this had been raised quite a lot.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
What I was going to say is that I think with the tier 2 it does give me hope. That is the issue around we are talking about. It is a journey. Chris sometimes uses the word "slow burn". It is that cultural change. So if you are tier 2, if you have got those about right, I am not saying it is perfect, but about right, then that does mean you will see that change in 5, 7 years.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
What do you mean by "about right"?
Chairman, States Employment Board: Well if it is around the 50:50 at tier 2.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
So you are in favour of gender targets?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
It has come out that way as a reasonable balance but that was done ...
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
You acknowledge gender balance is a good thing?
Chairman, States Employment Board: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Why is it a good thing?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
Because it has evolved to the extent that you are having a gender balance but that is slight ...
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Which we think is a good thing.
Chairman, States Employment Board: Yes. But it is slightly different.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Fantastic. Has any audit been done on the use of gendered language in the job descriptions of the director generals?
Director, People Services: No.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Thank you.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Just moving on because I am well aware of time.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
Would you like us to do an audit on the language?
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
I would love you to do an audit.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
Seeing a recommendation coming straight down on a Scrutiny report.
Senior H.R. Manager: We look forward to that.
Chairman, States Employment Board: I am sure we will be doing that.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Looking at statistics, obviously one of the things that we have seen so far in our research, as the Gender Pay Gap Review Panel, is the lack of statistics about gender in the workplace. I believe maybe it was Chris who mentioned in the past that when Statistics Jersey, I think they are now looking to collect data from businesses around the Island, but it is likely to be anonymised. I was just wondering: do you think that the collecting of that data should become a statutory comparative? Should it be put on the statute?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I was anticipating a slightly different question there, which is why I was nodding. The answer I was anticipating was Stats have been doing an internal appraisal, as I understand it, and I think we are expecting results of that after next month.
Senior H.R. Manager:
If I could add, just to clarify. There are 2 things to your question. There is what I would describe as the national jurisdictional one and then there is the one of the Government of Jersey as an employer. The point the Chief Minister just made is about the Government of Jersey as an employer.
Chairman, States Employment Board: Which is wearing the S.E.B. hat.
Senior H.R. Manager:
There is work that the director generals of the O.N.S. (Office for National Statistics) group are doing, which I suspect you may very well be aware of when they are looking at how they might collect that data in order to get the right jurisdictional information. But also there is a process, as you would fully appreciate, of making sure that we are properly consulted on, as we are a very different economic structure to some of the jurisdictions. So whether 250 employees is the right number, it clearly would not be, so there is a whole piece of work going on in that area. Again, it goes back to my general observation that this is an area that absolutely is important and is absolutely necessary to be done but it is also not going to be done as a revolution overnight. In order to get the quality of data, in order to inform the thinking and the direction of travel, you really have to put some hard miles in, which I think Duncan is doing, to ensure that everybody is consulted with, engaged with, and we have got people onboard with the journey rather than being critical of it.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I cannot fault that. From your perspective, is that something that would look to become law in the sense of demanding businesses report back?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
That is the issue around the consultation side, is it not, because it is at what level do you push it? I think you are aware is the issue that I think around 80 per cent of firms over here have 5 or less employees. So that might, in itself, start skewing data; you never know. I think consultation is the critical thing. Voluntary is always better if we are not having to legislate initially.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
We have received figures from PwC in which they stated ...
Chairman, States Employment Board: It is that report ...
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
It is not. It is the same people. Jon Terry from PwC came over to talk to us and I posed this exact question to him. I said: "80 per cent of businesses are S.M.E.s (small and medium enterprises) and they are 5 people or less. What is your view on statutory reporting?" He did say: "It is still essential for cultural change and what you can do in this instance is to ensure that any statistical data is accompanied by a written narrative in order to explain for these smaller businesses why there might
be a perceived greater gap." He says as long as there is statistical evidence backed up with a narrative, businesses should not have and have not, in his experience, had a problem with reporting on the gender pay gap. I just put that to you as a point.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
Okay, I will nod. It is also I think slightly cautious, wearing my S.E.B. hat, it is not an area for the S.E.B. to get involved. It is interesting, I do not know if you have had some correspondence recently but in terms of some of the legislation that is coming through shortly around the impact of small businesses and one always has to be slightly cautious again, even asking the data. If there is another 5-page return somebody has to do at midnight type of scenario, which is what the reality is, (a) to get good data and (b) it is just another ongoing problem.
Deputy K.F. Morel : I do appreciate that.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
I take your point. If statutory measures are not on a fiscal agenda what steps can we take to encourage gender diversity in other ways?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
To an extent it is an extension of the discussion we have been having already, which is about trying to demonstrate good practice and trying to encourage firms out there to do it. It might be a sweeping statement, I do not know, most of the larger organisations over here tend to be, I will say international financial services organisations, if you see what I mean, you would normally expect them to have reasonable policies in place already. Certainly from some of the organisations I encounter, you kind of get that feeling, shall we say. It is a feeling. Again, bear in mind we are going outside the remit of S.E.B. But if you are looking at us as the employer about setting a good example, hopefully that would be one way of doing it and I would hope that, in general, we do. That is family friendly, that is flexible working, that is job shares, all those types of practices.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Moving on to the Government of Jersey specifically and employment policies here. It might be for the officers to answer perhaps. Chairman, at what point when negotiating their starting salaries can new employees negotiate their starting position within a pay grade?
Chairman, States Employment Board: Definitely operational.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Does everyone start at the bottom of a pay grade or can they say: "I want to be the third increment up", that sort of thing?
Head, H.R. Business Partner:
Generally, we will encourage our line managers who make these decisions. The rule is they are supposed to bring people in the bottom of the grade but sometimes because of what somebody is earning outside we will allow them to increase that to match but we do have individuals that sometimes will take a drop to come and join us. It is generally a discussion point but the policy is to bring people in towards the bottom of the grade, so there is some progression. So most appointments are made at the bottom of the grade. Not necessarily at the lowest but at the first increment.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Is it the case that sometimes candidates make demands in that respect, from their perspective, say, basically: "I am on £5,000 a year now, I want to be on £6,000 or I am not starting"?
Head, H.R. Business Partner:
Yes, and it does happen. If it is a key post and we need to attract the person but we will require that appointment to be made generally within the grade. They are not supposed to go out of the grade because then effectively you are not paying the right amount of money for the job. We do have areas where at times we might consider market supplements but that is very rare and that would be unique.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
What is market supplement?
Head, H.R. Business Partner:
That would be if we had failed to attract and we had evidence that having gone out on several occasions we had failed to attract and we might, for a key post, consider a market supplement, which would be to pay outside of the grade. But that would be unusual, but it does happen occasionally.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I notice, and I am being pernickety here, but it is just to check. You mentioned that we generally start them towards the bottom of a grade. You have given yourself quite a bit of wiggle room there, from my perspective.
Head, H.R. Business Partner:
We would always offer at the bottom of the grade. If an individual were to come back and say that they were not willing and they were able to provide us evidence as to why they were not willing, then we will potentially move, if that is the right candidate for the job.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
In your experience, and I have no idea how long you have been doing this work or not, have you seen - this is anecdotally, I appreciate that - whether men would be more likely to make those demands or women would be more likely? If you have anything on that at all.
Head, H.R. Business Partner:
I probably have not seen that but if you do your reading on gender then it is a well-known fact that men are more likely to challenge that than women.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
You are absolutely right from the reading. I was just wondering if in in fact you had seen anything to confirm that.
Head, H.R. Business Partner:
To be honest, I see a balance but I probably would not ... that is anecdotal rather than fact, and I suspect it depends on what kind of roles and professions people work in. Some people might be more used to negotiating than others, so I cannot really answer that question with facts and figures. But from my point of view, I would expect that the norm is probably the same in our organisation.
Deputy K.F. Morel : That is fair enough.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Given that average earnings of men is typically higher than the average earnings of women, is it possible that through matching someone's previous salary we are in fact discriminating in favour of particular candidates or against particular candidates whose previous salaries are not higher partly because of their gender?
Head, H.R. Business Partner:
I would not say that because we take every case as it comes and there are times where we would not move on an offer. So I would not say that. To be honest, we always appoint within a grade. Our grades are quite small. So everybody at the end of the day, although you might have a situation where someone might come in at a higher increment, most people within 3 years progress to the top of the grade so that in 3 years that is levelled out.
Are all salaries advertised for States positions?
Head, H.R. Business Partner: We include a salary band on our ...
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Salary bands?
Head, H.R. Business Partner:
Not always on our adverts but they certainly are on the information when people go through the links to the advert, yes.
Senior H.R. Manager:
You would be aware that the gov.je website contains all the pay scales.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
Which is obviously relevant for the discussion we had last time about women being less inclined to ask about what the salary is.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Has the Government of Jersey undertaken a gender pay audit?
[15:45]
Chairman, States Employment Board: You just asked about that, did you not?
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Specifically a gender pay audit.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I think the short answer is we have not but ...
Senior H.R. Manager:
Not in the context I think you are referring to. We did produce last year effectively a snapshot of where we saw our gender pay issues whereas, as you recall, back in the U.K. in April last year, there
was a lot of noise with the BBC and everything else, so we did a bit of an exercise on that and we are repeating that exercise this coming April too because we promised at that time that we would publish again in a year's time. So that piece is underway. But we have not done the audit of the type that you have described.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Chairman, are you aware of any pay discrepancy between male and female employees in the States of Jersey?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
To the extent of problems like the BBC, as Chris referred to, no. Are there some stats which show ... well we have got various levels of pay by grade and gender and there are obviously small differences in pay between them. Is that because of the gender or the individuals or is it to do with lengths of service and things like that? But you might argue they could all be part of the same factor. At that point I hand over to Jacquie as the numbers person in this instance.
Director, People Services:
I think in this instance, this is the pay audit that Chris is alluding to that we will produce on an annual basis in April, will be a little bit more sophisticated than the one that we did last year because that was quickly pulled together for some information that we were asked to publish. I would prefer to wait until we know what the numbers are really telling us. But they are quite complex. They are not just flat numbers. As the Chief Minister says, it could be to do with length of service, it could be a number of things. But we will be looking at our pay audit and I am quite interested in anticipation of what that would tell us, then put some solutions, if required, around those.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Will you be connecting the dots between length of service and the causations of different lengths of service? If a woman has taken time out will you be analysing the impact on pay at the later part of her career?
Director, People Services: Yes.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I think it is fair to say, perhaps Denise can touch on it, we have a new system in place or about to get a new system in place.
Director, People Services:
We have a new, what you would probably refer to as an H.R. system, that we are in the middle of implementing, which will provide us with a better suite of information than we have been used to.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I am just saying that because it feeds into the general story we are having about difficulties of getting decent data in a whole range of areas. That is obviously one which then feeds into the issue we are talking about because that is one of the changes that is coming through which will then start to give me the data to start saying: "Is there a problem or not?"
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
When that data is collected and collated, what will happen after that? It is brilliant you are going to be tracking it, but what is the next step? What will you do with the data?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I am going to say I suspect if there is a problem it would come straight up to S.E.B. who will need to sort it out.
Director, People Services:
I was just going to say that. The pay audit before it is published will be tabled at S.E.B. and it should not just be a page of numbers. There should be some analysis in there and some assumptions made and some recommendations.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
It is interesting the statistics you have already sent us, I say this not so much to get at your view on them, but for the record to show things do need unwrapping because there appears to be, with the snapshot, the kind of 13 per cent pay gap between men and women. So men are paid 13 per cent more than women in the States of Jersey, which works at over £3 an hour. So you think of the 4,000 women who work here, that is a lot of hours every day that they are being paid at £3 less. As I just said, women dominate the workforce in all quartiles so even the top quartile, 57 per cent of the top quartile of employees are women yet they are all being paid less. It will be interesting when you get this team at Statistics to find out.
Director, People Services: Absolutely.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I am not asking necessarily for you to comment on that now.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
It is really important to understand that is going to be the fundamental.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Absolutely. Take you out of the States for a short time before going back in. The Jersey Annual Social Survey in 2014 showed that over half of all adults agreed that being a working parent has an impact on pay opportunities at higher grade jobs. This proportion rises to over two-thirds of people who are working parents. So basically people when they have children, leave for having children, does impact on your job prospects. You mentioned the family friendly legislation that has been lodged recently. Do you think that legislation, the parental leave policy, will help balance out childcare duties between the mother and the father? Do you think that legislation could have a cultural impact as far as childcare is concerned? Because at the moment I think we can look at Jersey and see that in general the majority of childcare is done by mothers as opposed to fathers.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
How it will change, I do not know. It is really there to enable people to have the choice. I think is probably the way to look at it. I am not going to try and predict what I think it is going to look like in 5 years' time.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Ninety-two per cent of fathers last year said that they wanted to take longer parental leave but could only take 2 weeks. You would hope that that would reflect.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
Yes, I tend to agree. I think I made the observation about how I was treated in the States on our second child. I was not given défaut excuse on the day. That has changed. Or at least I hope it has.
Deputy K.F. Morel : I think it has.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Assuming that they are not at the top of their pay grade, does a States employee receive an increment when on parental leave or sabbatical?
Chairman, States Employment Board: That point I do not know.
Senior H.R. Manager:
We can address it. By being on parental leave or sabbatical does not change our contractual obligations to them, so they will move through.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Move them through and 9 months on parental leave.
Senior H.R. Manager:
Yes, if they chose to do that they would get there in the end and I am sure it would have its
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Looking specifically at education, we have heard this anecdotally, and so this is anecdotal, that teachers only got the main pay scale if they are present in work for 6 months after 12, is that correct? We have heard this anecdotally; I have not seen it written it in a policy.
Head, H.R. Business Partner:
I must admit I am a bit rusty but I did used to work in education, so the issue is whether we have to check the facts but I think that might be in relation to an amount of hours that you have to work in a year in order to be counted as working for a year but I cannot recall how much that is. But I do recall there is something within the terms and conditions.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Would you mind seeing if you can find that out for us?
Head, H.R. Business Partner: Yes, I can find out for you, yes.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
That would be useful because it would be interesting to know then if parental leave again, if you are out for 10 months on parental leave, whether that would have an effect on that as well. Thank you.
Head, H.R. Business Partner:
I am not sure if it does in relation to those but I will find out and clarify for you.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
It would be great if you could, thank you very much.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Are senior employees required to sign non-disclosure agreements when they leave the employer of the Government of Jersey?
Chairman, States Employment Board: Interesting question.
Senior H.R. Manager:
Not sure how it quite sits within the context of this particular subject matter but I am quite happy to add to
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Believe me, I can think how it sits.
Senior H.R. Manager:
No, I am quite happy to answer that. Nobody is obliged to sign, to use your phrase, a non-disclosure agreement. There are people who leave the States of Jersey all the time but there are times when it is in both parties' best interest to consider those sorts of arrangements. Compromise agreements you will be well aware of, the various questions in the States Assembly and the C. and A.G. (Comptroller and Auditor General) report and so on and so forth. It is a tool that any employer, be it public or private, uses from time to time because, equally, individuals sometimes like to have them as well.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Yes, absolutely. But there is no overall
Senior H.R. Manager:
It is not an obligation and must do. No, it is a case by case
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Would you say a teacher in the States wants something not to be found out?
Senior H.R. Manager:
I think that is your phrase, not mine. I would not say that at all.
Deputy K.F. Morel : You would not say that.
Senior H.R. Manager:
No, I would not say that at all.
Deputy K.F. Morel : That is fair enough.
Senior H.R. Manager:
I think it is equally true that individuals do not want things to be found out as well, yes.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
How does the Government of Jersey ensure uniformity of equality and diversity across States Departments? We are looking at States Departments as a whole; do you have policies to try and ensure equality and diversity?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I am not sure, I was going to say the short answer to that is yes.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Basically, is the Education Department operating under similar diversity policies to the C. and A.G. and that
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I am again looking to my left and right but, as far as I am aware, yes.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Education is an interesting one - I look to Denise - would individual schools be expected to operate under the same policy, from your knowledge?
Head, H.R. Business Partner:
The policy that would have inflated effects applies to all States employees or Government-Jersey appointed.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Are there intentions to accompany such policies with the Strategic Plan in order to tackle the lack of diversity?
Chairman, States Employment Board: Sorry, say that again.
Are there any plans to accompany a policy with an action plan to achieve equality and diversity?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
The reason I was pausing is because, as we have kind of said, part of it is the slowdown ... that is the wrong expression; is the cultural change. Part of that is around sorry, I am thinking more of the previous meeting, which is not S.E.B. because I was thinking about the societal change in the family-friendly legislation, et cetera, which is not relevant to the employees. But it is around the policies that we have in place and obviously arrangement to a change from 2017 to 2018 and September 2019 there will be some changes as well. The reason I am saying it that way round is that that is all around making the workforce more attractive, therefore we are having implementation already, so, technically, that is your action plan. How far it goes after that, which is maybe building up on the fact that it is a theme in the C.S.P. (Common Strategic Plan) and what do we do about it? I think I will hand over to my 2 or 3 gurus on my left and right because this is all coming together as part of the Government Plan as to how these all come round. I am just wondering what more we need to do until we get the data to know where there is a problem, if you see what I mean.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Yes. But before you hand over can I just come up with something? What role does S.E.B. play in the oversight of equality and diversity policies? Is that purely operational or does S.E.B. have oversight of policy?
Chairman, States Employment Board: Ultimately, we set policy.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Strategy?
Senior H.R. Manager:
If we just scroll back for a moment, I mean the law is very clear on what the S.E.B. is accountable for and one of those things it sets codes of practice, which you will be familiar with, which have, in themselves, quite a powerful force within the organisation. Those codes of practice cover things such as recruitment, diversity and so forth. It is from those codes of practice you then drive the various policies and processes that inform how the organisation works in these areas. The observation I was going to make in this respect is the States of Jersey has the largest H.R. community on the Island and the H.R. community, in my experience, is very experienced and very aware of its accountabilities and responsibilities to support and engage in issues such as diversity
and inclusion in what it does on a daily and regular basis. When it is revising its policy framework it is thinking of those things as well. When it is considering the remuneration strategy it is thinking of those things as well, and so on and so forth. But Jacquie referred to some work that she wants to sort of direct for later in the autumn, which might be a good point for me to hand over to you.
Director, People Services:
Okay, thank you. Yes, we have got 2 things. We are going to create a people strategy but we are going to call it a People Plan, which aligns to the Government Plan for 3 years, 4 years. We have just started to think about how we want to approach that. One of our early stakeholders in this, if not early shapers, will be the S.E.B. It will be a chance to start and think about: how does S.E.B. want to describe as a good or excellent or best employer? It takes it right back to: what do we want to represent? What do we want to stand for as a States Employment Board as an employer and build a People Plan or a strategy around that? It will talk to not just a strategy that then sits in a drawer but it will talk to the actual employees of the Government of Jersey. The way we want to construct it, it will start to think about, what is it like to work in the States of Jersey for me, as an employee? What do I need to do as a manager who supports those employees and how do I behave and conduct myself and what responsibilities do I have and what do I need to be able to do that? What is the organisation going to represent? That is where the States Employment Board comes through. That will take us probably 2 or 3 months to get to that kind of draft plan and then it will be signed off by the States Employment Board
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Would the S.E.B. have a role in kind of taking up dates, how that plan is being implemented, checking after a few years that
Director, People Services: Absolutely.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
Yes, you can expect there will be some reporting and all sorts of actual reporting and how that is going to be put in.
Director, People Services:
Coming back to the diversity question, I would expect that through that People Plan there would be a cross-cutting theme around, how do we make sure that diversity and inclusion fits through all of the component parts?
[16:00]
Although we are going to create this plan, we do have within People Services, now, some of this work already being shaped. One of the things that is appearing earlier is a draft learning and development strategy, which was on the back of some of the comments that were made as part of the staff survey that we did last year. One of the things that we are looking at is the t approach to learning , which will sit within that wider People Plan, is: are all our employees being treated equitably and fairly in terms of access to development? That is one of the challenges because it is not just about the training budget, it is about access to networks and people that can help with them and it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. There will be this diversity theme that I am really quite passionate about, which will go through the People Plan. Chris touched on the pay and reward review; again, we will have our eyes on the equitability and fairness of that review. For me, it is a cross-cutting theme.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Can I ask: what is the difference between a cross-cutting theme and a strategic aim?
Director, People Services:
I am open to debate and feedback on this, is I have resisted creating within the People Plan a single line that says: "This is a diversity and inclusion policy or work stream." Because then it becomes siloed within that plan, whereas if you have it running across all of the other plans that are being created, it almost acts as a filter when creating the other policies to say: have we really included diversity? It will not be the only thing that we are putting in there as a cross-cutting theme. Does that make sense?
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Yes, it makes total sense.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
It should be business as usual basically, should it not?
Deputy K.F. Morel :
It should be, you are absolutely right.
Director, People Services:
You have a number of strategies but you have diversity
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Yes, it is just interesting. There are 2 things; one, I think, to some extent, personally, I will have to wait and see the People Plan to fully understand what you are saying.
Director, People Services: Yes, absolutely.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
This goes back to Jon Terry from PwC and he was quite insistent that it is vital for every boardroom to put on its agenda a strategic aim. We are talking about gender balance in this case but you are saying it should be there with every business in every boardroom as a strategic aim. I appreciate that personally I will need to see the People Plan to fully understand it. I think we have debated this in a much wider context in the States Assembly with the Common Strategic Policy; my concern is that a cross-cutting theme is subordinate to a strategic aim but I am willing to wait and see.
Director, People Services:
No, I see it as a check and balance; yes, an assurance theme. Sorry, but when I am talking about diversity and inclusion, I am not just talking about pay and gender. I am talking about all of the other things that we have to include in there as well.
Deputy K.F. Morel : Yes, that is fair enough.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
I think the feedback that we have had from several evidence-givers, including the Chair of the I.O.D. (Institute of Directors) and Jon Terry of PwC is that we have known for decades that there is gender inequality alongside other kinds but we are talking about gender and it has not changed organically. It has not changed over time. It is not going to change organically; we have to tackle it head on. While I think the idea of having it as a theme is brilliant, I think the evidence we have received with our Scrutiny hats on is that it will not be effective enough to instigate the kind of change we want in the kind of timeframe that is desirable. Without strategy and without targets things will not improve because if they were to improve kind of more organically it would have already happened. We have a lot of evidence to that effect from different sources; this is not me saying it.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
Is this in Jersey society or within the States?
Deputy J.H. Perchard: What do you mean?
Chairman, States Employment Board: Are we talking about
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
We are talking about within business, so within the States, within the private sector. But the thing is the private sector, PwC for example, among many others, are trail-blazing. They report the gender pay gaps, they have a strategic plan; it is on every boardroom agenda. We are behind in this regard, it would seem, from the evidence we have gathered. There is no question there, I am just telling you. My apologies
Senior H.R. Manager:
Maybe that is a debate for offline, I think, I might say genuinely.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Sorry?
Senior H.R. Manager:
I think that is a debate for offline because I think PwC and all the other ones have had a much longer journey to achieve what they have achieved and I am not decrying that, than we have
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
What do you mean they have had a longer journey?
Senior H.R. Manager:
They have been doing it for 30 or 40 years.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Doing what for 30 or 40 years?
Senior H.R. Manager:
What you have just described.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: What do you mean?
Senior H.R. Manager:
I will answer your question. What you have just described, the sort of things about understanding what gender is, equality, diversity and so forth.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Okay.
Senior H.R. Manager:
They have been working in a U.K. context where these issues of protective characteristics and diversity and inclusion have had a much longer timeframe to become part of the overall business framework; that is one of the points
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Okay, so you are suggesting that in Jersey those things have not been acknowledged in the same amount of time.
Senior H.R. Manager:
I think that gender is an issue, we are catching up and which is, I think, the point that you are making.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Yes.
Senior H.R. Manager:
We support that and I think what
Chairman, States Employment Board:
The legislation only came in in 2014, I think, yes.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
What you are saying, I mean this saddens me enormously that you say that because the States of Jersey have been around a lot longer than PwC has been around. Our journey has been a lot longer than their journey has but we have done less
Senior H.R. Manager:
Yes, but they have been sat in a different jurisdictional framework. I am just making the point.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I do not know, they operate with men and women, as Jersey does operate with men and women.
Senior H.R. Manager:
I am just making a general point.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
But picking up from that point, do you think, Chairman, that within the education system there is possibly a cultural problem that teaches boys to do certain roles and girls to do other roles? This is within the context of Jersey's education system and that, in itself, then is reflected in the way the States operates and the difficulty we have had in getting on to the same journey as the likes of PwC or elsewhere.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I think my answer probably has to be that education policy is not a matter for the States Employment Board, sorry.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
It is a shame you feel that you need to hide from the question.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
No, I think we did touch on that last time round, so just to keep you aware of time because we did get on to the: how do we encourage girls and boys into different areas? Because it is about home economics and things, if you go back and look at the scripts and we have done that area. I am just aware of the time we have got left but also it very much depends on the enthusiasm. I read somewhere, I think it is one of your earlier transcripts of a J.C.G. (Jersey College for Girls) teacher who had, apparently, been highly instrumental on getting girls to go into things like maths and engineering subjects, which was great. But I thought we did not really want to get off track essentially.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
No, because I was wondering how that feeds into the States Employment Board; whether the States, as an employer, reflects the possibility that the Jersey education system tends to suggest these jobs are for boys and these jobs are for girls. As Jersey's biggest employer, therefore, the States of Jersey reflects that, would you agree, with your chairman's hat on?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I am trying to work out what the question was.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Would you agree that, as Jersey's biggest employer, the States of Jersey has the potential to reflect an education system in which jobs are gendered, children are taught the terms of gender?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
Right, the States Employment Board does not get involved in education policy, okay, just to be aware of that.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
No, but you are bound to reflect it.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
But in terms of can we encourage again, that is about the whole recruitment process and things like that. I know in some of the stats we have had, if you look at, say, areas which might be more engineering orientated, I think the stats tend to imply that they are more male dominated than female dominated. Will that change? Is that something we can look at under the recruitment process? Yes, that then is a product, of course, of the availability and that is a product of the education policy, which is a matter for the Minister for Education.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Let me turn this on its head a little bit Do you think it is about time then that the States Employment Board spoke to the Education Department because, as the biggest employer on the Island, you take more people from the education system over here than any other employer on the Island? How the education system operates is directly relevant to the performance of the States of Jersey.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I am very happy to but obviously the current Minister for Education was the previous chair of the S.E.B., so
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I know but you asked her to be, so that it is entirely of your own doing, I believe.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I did not. I asked her to be the chairman, yes. But I know there are a lot of things she is trying to do in the education side and I rather suspect that will be one of the areas she would be interested in.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Okay, but do you think the States Employment Board literally because it employs so many thousands of people that come out of the education system in Jersey, would you agree that the States Employment Board has an interest in the education system in Jersey because it employs so many people who come out of it?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
The S.E.B. will do but as will all employers on the Island because it goes on a lot as to whether the education system produces future workers who are appropriate for the advance of the economy up and the States is part of that picture.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
But you do not seem to think that the States Employment Board should take part in that discussion about education policy and skills development within the education
Chairman, States Employment Board:
No, I think they can do but I think it is more what I am trying to say is I think it is the Council of Ministers who then set and deal with that policy and obviously there are 3 Ministers who sit on the S.E.B. and then feed it into the C.O.M. (Council of Ministers). I am just saying I think it is more of a C.O.M. responsibility to make sure because it is not such a generic issue.
Deputy K.F. Morel : Yes, right, thank you.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
That is my take and perhaps will be corrected but
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
We are going off-piste. When would you say, Chairman, that the S.E.B. first became aware of the social and cultural inequalities between men and women in Jersey?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
When did the S.E.B.? I genuinely cannot tell you that because I rather suspect it would be a bit before my time, so I shall look left and right.
Senior H.R. Manager:
I would say it is probably before my time, as we are being candid. I mean you
Head, H.R. Business Partner:
I do not know but I have been in the organisation for 30 years and when I first joined the organisation in my 20s I was given the opportunity to go on a springboard course, which was about advancing young women in the organisation to be future leaders. I would say that the organisation has continually done proactive things around gender, in my experience.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Maybe has been on this journey as long as PwC.
Head, H.R. Business Partner:
What the decision making behind that was at that time I am not sure
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I appreciate you would not, yes.
Head, H.R. Business Partner:
I was a beneficiary of that decision, yes.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
But given the experience of 30 years of what you describe as proactive encouragement and support for women, would you say that the States has been successful in its aims of achieving equality between men and women?
Head, H.R. Business Partner:
I would say that we have taken strides forward but there is always room for improvement.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Chairman?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I hate to say the same thing after somebody else. There is always room for improvement but overall the impression I get is things are a lot better than they were a couple of decades ago.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
But given that it has taken decades, would you agree that simply providing policies, which we have been doing across that time and training initiatives is not enough, given that we have been trying that for decades and it has not achieved equality?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I think part of the issue is the effectiveness of the policies, is it not? I am looking down, as I said, at current arrangements, for example, on maternity leave, saying this is about flexibility and the work environment. This is an old table but 2017 was 18 weeks with 2 weeks compulsory leave, September 2018 is 26 weeks of leave and September 2019 is now going up to 52 weeks of parental leave; I am not going into whether it is paid or unpaid. If you look at that that is 3 years and that shows how things have significantly changed in that one very specific area in a relatively short period of time. That is about societal expectations as well, which will then have a political impact which we are then feeding into how we are changing things as an employer. What might have been expectations in the 1990s and the 1980s may well have changed now.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Those expectations have changed as a result of clear and precise policies, such as the one you have just read out. Do you think that policy helps to shape
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I think there will be both. The policies are probably changing because of how societal expectations have changed. Part of that would be how people are being educated and how their expectations have changed from the previous generation.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
But it also could work the other way. Say, for example, if family-friendly legislation would enable fathers to take significantly more time, so then you would hope that the behaviour that would follow is that men would take more time and a perception of men being carers would change over time. Do you agree that if policy can also inform society or how you go to societal beliefs?
Chairman, States Employment Board: Yes, that's a fair point.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I am just going to bring you back, with 3 of the last questions and I just do not want them to be missed; I am aware of time.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I am just aware, I have got a briefing for my next quarterly Scrutiny hearing
Deputy K.F. Morel : No, I appreciate that.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
which is on Monday and that started 15 minutes ago.
But you have got the weekend between now and then.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
Yes, thank you for that. You never talk about family-friendly working environments.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I learnt them a long time ago, do not worry about that. Again, officers may be in a better position to answer but I will ask the chairman but feel free to flag them. How many Government of Jersey departments sought diversity development training or how many government departments sought diversity development training?
Chairman, States Employment Board: I will definitely hand that across.
Senior H.R. Manager:
I will start and then perhaps we can when the law changed in sort of September 2014 when the first protected characteristic was by gender, we did a big exercise across the organisation, including the States Assembly at the time, of doing a one-day workshop for to remind everybody of the expectations, what the law was, what that meant in terms of changed behaviours and so forth in the workplace.
[16:15]
We do include it in corporate induction. We are currently revising it, as we say, corporation induction, moving it online and the diversity and inclusion will be a module within that in the same way that health and safety and other things are that are very important. The States of Jersey Police, for example, have got very advanced in that area of work. We know that teachers and social workers have a key part, they are involved and is part of their training in that aspect and so forth. Our most recent managerial leadership programme is inspiring managers and managers-to-leaders have a specific module on diversity, all of which has taken place in the last 2 or 3 years. I think it has become a much more prevalent, much more explicit, much more focused piece of work than perhaps it might have been 10 years ago or even 5. We can point it out, share the module information with you if that is helpful.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Denise mentioned earlier the springboard programme, thank you for bringing that up; never heard of it, but do you think the government would benefit from female like specifically development programmes focused on women in particular?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I was going to wait for the outcome of Jacquie's discussions tomorrow and Denise's input as well. I think if there is anything around, I will call mentoring and encouraging, that has got to be good. I think it is more of an informal process probably initially, if that makes sense. It is probably going to be more beneficial, in my view, but then we will go from there.
Director, People Services:
Yes. I think the outcomes tomorrow will be interesting. As I said before, I am hoping that that will give us a starting point to formalise coaching and mentoring for the more junior females in our organisation. Maybe just shine a light on them a little bit in terms of career aspirations and the art of the possible, I guess.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Yes, thanks. Very quickly as well, the top pay levels between £200,000 and £310,000 are taken all by men, 7 of them and they are all male. Is this a suggestion that there is a glass ceiling in the States of Jersey?
Senior H.R. Manager:
Can you just repeat the question? Sorry, just
Deputy K.F. Morel :
The information I have is that figures that were given to us by S.E.B. show that employees between £200,000 and £310,000 are all male.
Senior H.R. Manager: Yes.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Is this suggestive of the glass ceiling in the States of Jersey?
Senior H.R. Manager:
I think it goes back to some of the observations that were made earlier about the tier 1 and tier 2. It does not take a rocket scientist to work out which people are in those roles, some of which are very senior public service roles. That can be about the journey and the experience that those people
have had in their previous careers. It can be about the expectations that society has on those roles and so forth. I think there are changes that will undoubtedly come because we are going through that generational change now. I look at my daughters and I can see where they are in their careers in their 30s to what I experienced in my 30s at that time. It is changing and it will change.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
Okay. I was thinking of an example I used, we are not wearing an S.E.B. hat, which at the last sitting was in terms of colleagues I qualified with or I worked with. I can certainly now think of one local firm where the managing partner is a woman and a mother and that has certainly changed in the last 20 years, I would have said.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Yes, unfortunately when you mention managing partners it makes you think of law firms and my own research found that locally in law firms it is an appalling proportion of partners are women.
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I am an accountant, I do not comment on lawyers too much.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
No, it just made me think of law firms. Finally, I mentioned earlier basically across the entire States organisation, two-thirds of employees are women, one-third of employees are men. But we have already seen there is a pay gap; the majority of women seem to be concentrating on positions with less seniority and less authority and I just want to keep it on record: why do you think that is the case?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
The reason I was pausing was because I was just reading the data in front of me, which I was just trying to remind myself because it is a couple of weeks since I have looked at it but, yes, it depends. Because if you go to the sort of £100,000 mark it is 14 versus 15, £110,000 to £120,000 is 13/12, then there's a gap, then there's another gap, then it's £150,000 6/4, the highest is £190,000.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
But if you look lower as well you notice the further down you go the more women are
Chairman, States Employment Board:
No, absolutely. I think the other thing, which goes back to it, it is one of those and Deputy Perchard is a far better position. It comes out: why are there more female teachers, for example, why there are far more female nurses? That does skew the figures really significantly because those are the real numerics sorry, who are the sectors of the States that employ the most people? That will shift the figures around a lot. The why, I think from the previous hearing, again, that has been cultural and societal issues at the time and how is that changing? Equally, I know we had a discussion around teaching, more women than men type of thing in that area and I seem to recall that I might be correct, if significantly, in certain sorts of primary schools trying to get a male teacher is sometimes difficult. Therefore, that is an issue about it is male role models for the boys and if it is a mixed school, what dynamic in the school?
Senior H.R. Manager: No, it is so true, yes.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Do you agree that in order to unpick some of these incredibly complex and embedded societal stereotypes we need to implement proactive strategies to tackle them?
Chairman, States Employment Board:
I think the high-level answer is yes. I will no doubt have some caveats on that.
Deputy K.F. Morel : No time for caveats.
Chairman, States Employment Board: It depends on the detail.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Thank you so much for your time and apologies for running over time.
Chairman, States Employment Board: No problem.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Thank you, thank you very much.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Thank you very much for your patience.
[16:21]