Transcript - Gender Pay Gap - Diversity Network - 21 January 2019

Gender Pay Gap Review Panel Diversity Network

Witness: Co-Founder, Diversity Network

Monday, 21st January 2019

Panel:

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour (Chairman) Deputy K.F. Morel of St. Lawrence (Vice-Chairman) Senator K.L. Moore

Witnesses:

Co-Founder, Diversity Network

[15:07]

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour (Chairman):

Okay, right, let us begin then, shall we? Welcome to Kate Wright. Very nice to have you here today and welcome to members of the public and I am not sure if that is members of the public and media but welcome. Please turn your mobile phones to silent before we begin. So we are the Gender Pay Gap Review Panel and this afternoon we are very pleased to welcome the Diversity Network. I am Louise Doublet , Deputy Louise Doublet . I am the Chair of the panel. I will let my panel introduce themselves.

Deputy K.F. Morel of St. Lawrence (Vice-Chairman): Deputy Kirsten Morel , the Vice-Chair of the panel.

Senator K.L. Moore :

Senator Kristina Moore . I am a member of the panel.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Kellie, would you like to introduce yourself?

Scrutiny Officer:

Kellie Boydens , Scrutiny Officer.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

We have got apologies today from Deputy Perchard who would have loved to be here but she is on States business today. So we are little bit late starting due to our technical difficulties but I think we, maybe, still aim for a 4.00 p.m.

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

Okay. I will try and keep it short and sweet. I will be concise.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes. So usually when we have Ministers in we are holding them to account but today we just want to really receive your views and information from you so no pressure, just answer the questions. If there are any you do not want to answer then please feel free to say as well. Do I need to ask about the statement or is that just for Ministers? Yes, okay. That is just for Ministers. Okay, just thought I would check. Would you like to introduce yourself and your organisation please?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

Yes. We know each other well though, do we not? Yes, I am Kate Wright. I am an H.R. (human resources) consultant but I also co-founded the Diversity Network and I sit on the Women in Politics Committee, which is how I know Louise.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

The first question that I had was just to tell us a little bit about the Diversity Network and what you do.

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

Yes, with pleasure. We launched about a year ago, my colleague, Sam Duffy and I, and it was initially in response to gender equality issues in the Island. We inherited what was the Women's Development Forum, which was a network for women, professional women largely, and when it was disbanded we were keen not to lose the interest and the energy that we found at those meetings so we took over the network. We did lots of research and feedback. We spoke to committee members, people who attended and supporters and the overwhelming feedback was that gender equality was far from fixed and still needed a focus but there were many other diversity issues that also needed attention and very importantly, and I entirely agree with this, if we want to see change then we really

need men in the remit. We need men involved in the discussion. So that was the main reason why we broadened the network to the Diversity Network rather than just a gender focus. It is not just a talking shop. We do much more than just networking events. We have a sort of education and training arm and we run small focus groups and workshops, share information and conduct some research too. That is what we try and do. It is about engaging the whole community in change with regards to diversity.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Brilliant, thank you.

Deputy K.F. Morel : Can I just ask

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Yes, go on.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Sorry, just one question about the network, you mentioned the training arm and the research. Do businesses in Jersey ask you to go in to train them? Is that where that comes from?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

Yes. I mean that is how it has grown. Demand for help, which I think is brilliant. I mean I have to say since we started we found ourselves sort of pushing on open doors and there are a lot of generally the larger businesses who now want help to change. So that is the why, literally just this year, we have introduced sort of a new arm of Diversity Network so we can get in and help people make change within their organisation.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. Well, I am going to open, at the risk of the next question, which is a very big question really. Do you think that there is a gender pay gap in Jersey?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network: Yes, I do. Undoubtedly, yes.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

So given that you think there is a gender pay gap what do you think are the main causes of that and what do you think the impacts of the gender pay gap are likely to be?

Okay. In terms of causes there is no one cause; there are many and it is complex. So I will start with my list and I will work through it. It is still the case that women predominantly take on the care and responsibilities within the family unit so you may have 2 partners working fulltime but it is changing but generally more women take on the lion's share of domestic responsibilities so that can be a barrier to progression and working fulltime even. So I think that is an issue that we often come across. The divided labour market. Again, it is still the case that you find more women than men in lower paid jobs and lower skilled jobs too. I do not have stats for Jersey in that regard. I know in the U.K. (United Kingdom) women make up 62 per cent of those earning less than the living wage, so just to demonstrate that. There is discrimination still. It is changing. It is getting better. But there are lots of barriers facing women to reach progression within business due to gender discrimination. Really interestingly, and we found this through some of our closer work, and one of the programmes we have just launched is a development programme for women. One of the biggest issues is a confidence issue that women seem to feel more than men and I do not have any stats to prove it so this is sort of anecdotal but we are hearing it a lot. I think underneath there are lots of things lying underneath that confidence issue. Clearly, if you take a career break of a couple of years it is not always easy to step back into the workplace that is changing so fast at the moment in terms of technology and business climate and that kind of thing. There is a lack of role models for women. So if there is no one like you in senior positions it is harder to see yourself in that role. Whereas that is clearly something that men do not face. I think women often find themselves, in particular the more senior you get, in a minority in a meeting. I am hugely sort of generalising but men and women often do behave differently in those situations. It is sometimes more difficult for women to get their voice heard in those situations. I believe there is quite a lot of research to prove it but women are less likely to actively put themselves forward for promotion than men. Apparently men only need to be about 40 per cent there before they say: "Yes, I can do that job" where women want to tick all the boxes to demonstrate they can do a role before they have the confidence to put themselves forward. So there is a huge raft of things but in terms of our work it is sort of the discrimination and confidence angle that we have found most.

[15:15]

Deputy K.F. Morel : Interesting.

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

I think the second part of your question was impact, was it not?

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

What is the result of this gender pay gap? Well, the obvious very visual one is that we have not got many women in senior positions across businesses and the civil service in Jersey, which is very noticeable. The impact of that lack of diversity is, in my view, really serious and increasingly serious in the sort of current sort of public uncertainty in terms of economics and social and political sort of landscape. Without sort of being able to tune into and understand a broader perspective of experiences and values and ideas you are not going to be able to draw on that to come to the best understanding of the situation. You are not going to be able to make the best decisions that you could do if you had a wider variety of views available to you.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So are you saying then that it poses a risk to Jersey not having a diverse range of people at senior levels?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

Absolutely. One of the main drivers of businesses coming to us is the difficulty they have with recruitment. Recruitment is particularly difficult in Jersey. It is a very small pool of people and you see businesses constantly sort of pinching from each other. It is same people moving around a small number of businesses and that is not satisfactory for anybody. Businesses are finding it difficult to broaden that recruitment pool and the only way to do that is through tapping other sources of talent. Women at home or working part time or not sort of feeling that they can access some of those careers are an obvious source of talent. So, yes, recruitment is a big one. But we also hear businesses saying that when do bring in someone and this is not just a gender issue at all and I think this point applies even more so to sort of lower socio economic groups and people from ethic minority backgrounds. If you do manage to recruit somebody in from a different background to the norm within your organisation organisations are finding it quite hard to keep them and progress them through. Perhaps because of the sort of role model issue, confidence issues, the fact that the environments are not very inclusive. There are barriers.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

That in itself created questions but I will go on to the one I have got here. Do you think a gender pay gap is more likely in gender dominant industries? By that we are talking about kind of construction, perhaps on the male side

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think you referred to it as "divided labour market". That was the term you used, was it not?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

Well, I think that is one of the issues but I think it really depends on the organisation. Unfortunately not many businesses here are willing to share their statistics. I have had insight into some, I cannot name those, but if you take a retail bank then you will find that their workforce could be predominantly female. However, there is a gender pay gap issue because most of those women work in lower paid more junior roles and the fewer men are in the senior positions. So I think that is a not uncommon gender pay gap issue here. But, yes, in male dominated industries there just are not many women coming through. There is some good stuff going on and I know you will not mind me sharing this but I was talking to the M.D. (Managing Director) of Geomarine and half of his engineers are now women which is brilliant.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

But how many of his board?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network: Sorry?

Deputy K.F. Morel :

But how many of his board is the question?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network: Well, that is a good question.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

How did they achieve that balance? Do you have any insight into how they achieved that?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

I do, which is very local to Jersey and I think a really inspiring story and really demonstrates the importance of education. His feeling was that they had a raft of women coming through because there was one particularly inspiring teacher working at J.C.G. (Jersey College for Girls) and she had influenced more girls to go down a maths and science route and as a result they have seen people come through in engineering. I think he thinks that there has been a breakthrough in that particular industry generally. You see it in the U.K. but it is particularly pronounced here within his organisation because he says one teacher at J.C.G. is providing that inspiration and aspiration. I love that story. Business cannot change this in isolation and Government cannot change this in isolation. It is incredibly important that the 2 are working together to do this.

You touched on it earlier but would you say that those kind of male dominated industries tend to attract higher paid than female dominated industries or is it offer higher paid not attractive? We are talking general terms.

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

Yes, the labour divide. You will find more women in caring roles, nursing roles and teaching roles, particularly in primary school, which are lower paid than sort of finance.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I guess in my head is, have you ever thought about why are they lower paid? Like, do you have a sense

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

I mean that is a huge issue and I think it is a very complex issue and I think it is entirely wrong. Yes, I think there are probably deep-rooted discriminatory reasons for it that those roles are demeaned because women do them or have done traditionally so they are viewed as being less important, less valuable, require less capability which is blatantly wrong. Education, hospitals; they are incredibly important to the fabric of our society. I think that is a deep-rooted discriminatory issue there.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

The last one from me for the moment is, having said all that, what initiatives do you think could be undertaken to help reduce the gender pay gap or to change the workplace?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

What I think this is where I I mean I am always really optimistic because you hear it really annoys me when I hear people: "This is just " people kind of give up. "It is going to take us so long because these issues are so engrained and deep within our culture." Yes, they are but I think there are lots of things that both Government and business can do that will accelerate that change and you can make change come really quickly within a single organisation. If you want me to give again another local example, and this is not a gender one, but it is a diversity issue that shows how focused support can change things. If you talk to the C.O. (Chief Officer) at H.S.B.C. (Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation) here he is an L.G.B.T. (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender) supporter within an outside organisation. Ten years ago he had to hide the fact that he was gay. He could not talk about it at work. Ten years later he is walking around with rainbow stripes around his neck, on his lanyard, demonstrating that is somebody that anyone in the organisation could go to speak to about L.G.B.T. issues. It is now something that they talk about openly and it is a much more inclusive environment and they have done that over a number of

different strains of diversity. Focus and leaders demonstrating their support is absolutely key. From a gender point of view I think if you look at the U.K. you may have heard of the 30% Club. They have had tremendous success in terms of supporting more women on to F.T.S.E. 100 (Financial Times Stock Exchange 100) boards. I have got some stats here. I think in 2010 when they were founded their aim was to get 30 per cent of women on to F.T.S.E. 100 boards and they had achieved that by 2018. That was through really engaging with leadership in business, the chairs and C.E.O.s (chief executive officers), and they provided practical support as well. It was signing up to targets. This is where business really needs to work with Government because although many of those organisations will have already been very proactive and progressive in terms of how they got more women on to their boards others were pushed there because the U.K. Government made it a requirement that businesses with over 250 employees had to share their gender pay gap stats and that has forced businesses to respond. So if you take Ryanair, for example, they had a big gender pay gap issue because their female employees tended to be cabin crew, air stewardesses, that kind of thing, and their male employees were pilots who were better paid and they had very few female pilots. Now they are committed to achieving a target in terms of the number of women pilots over the coming years. Their board, their chair, the C.O., has made that commitment publicly so they are having to think outside of the box. They are going to have think creatively about how they achieve that and as a result they very likely will. So you need both. You need the engagement with business and Government but I think what the 30% Club has achieved over 8 years shows that you can make change quite quickly.

Senator K.L. Moore :

You touched there on the idea of statutory information and revealing statistics. You mentioned earlier that there was a lack of information available in Jersey. How much do you think that inhibits our understanding of the issues and does it perhaps show that there is a lack of interest in properly attacking the issue if people are not prepared to share their information?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

I think there is a lack of interest and I have to say my contact with business is somewhat limited. The most engagement we have has been from bigger corporates so I cannot speak for many of the smaller businesses. I think there is a lack of interest. I understand. I have a small business. There is not enough hours in the day just to do the basics let alone think about getting more women on board and that kind of thing. It is difficult. But I think if perhaps people understood the impact of the power and the importance to the longevity of their business success of having greater diversity they would be much more willing to include it in their strategies. I do not think it is helped by whether it is a lack of interest or engagement but a perceived lack of interest and engagement from the States. They did publish their gender pay gap stats in the civil service a good year ago. I have not seen much happen in response to that. I have not heard much about what the civil service can do

to improve those statistics which makes it feel, fairly or not, that there is a lack of interest or understanding of the importance of this issue from our largest employer and through recent very high profile recruitment, director generals, it does not send a very positive message about the intent and the desire to increase the number of women in senior positions. I also think the lack of a very clear strategy for diversity inclusion within the Strategic Plan is telling in terms of understanding and the importance placed on this issue.

Senator K.L. Moore : We did try.

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

I know you did. I know you did. If the Government are not demonstrating that this is important how can we expect smaller businesses to? So I do think the States needs to lead by example.

Senator K.L. Moore :

If you were setting a priority list perhaps as a catalyst for change where would you pitch statutory information sharing in that list? Would that be one your top priorities?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

In terms of sharing gender pay gap data?

Senator K.L. Moore :

Yes, and achieving change.

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

I think you look at the U.K. it has been instrumental in a lot of the progress we have seen over the last couple of years. Whether businesses are coming purely from a grounding in P.R. (public relations) point of view or whether they genuinely get it and want to create a more inclusive and diverse environment it has encouraged businesses to change and take action and you have seen that quite rapid change with some businesses. So I think it is incredibly important. I have spoken to some very progressive business leaders here about, would they share statistics, and understandably they are afraid to be the first because they will get the bad P.R. because inevitably their stats will not be great. Why should they be the only ones getting the bad press? They cannot afford that. So unless everybody is encouraged to strongly it is not going to happen.

Senator K.L. Moore :

Or statutory measures would be more effective than voluntary.

Absolutely. It is the only way I believe businesses will share their stats.

Senator K.L. Moore :

We obviously introduced our employment discrimination laws. How effective do you think they have been in driving diversity and change?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

I think they are helpful. They provide a sort of base minimum standard. I do not think that standard is enough and sometimes I think it can be a little limiting because there has been some negative feedback about smaller businesses being afraid to take on female employees of a certain age because of the cost to them in terms of maternity leave and such like.

[15:30]

We can introduce things like shared parental leave but until the culture changes it is still very difficult for many men to take that up because it is viewed as unacceptable and damaging to their careers. I have heard a lot from dads recently about how they feel unfairly treated and discriminated against. Dads are more and more playing an active role in looking after the kids and they want to pick them up from school. I was talking to someone the other day who said: "I really want to work I would love to work 4 days a week but I am simply not allowed if I want to maintain my career. My wife is but I am not and I think that is really unfair." So there needs to be a cultural change and without it a lot of the legislation is not that effective. I just do not want it to limit businesses to: "Okay, so we have complied with the law. That is it. We have done our bit." That is far from the case. There is so much more that can be done and it is in their interests.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I want to cover that area in a bit more detail but I just wanted to go back to something that Senator Moore was asking about the reporting, the gender pay gap reporting. In the U.K. it is 250 employees. From your work with businesses what kind of size of organisation do you think it would be reasonable for us to require reporting?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

Obviously in Jersey you have a much larger number of smaller businesses than you do in the U.K. so I think you would have to look at that. That is a difficult question. I am not sure I feel I have the statistics to hand to make a really informed opinion on that right now but I think you would have to bring down the number for it to be effective, possibly quite significantly. Yes, that is an important point.

Senator K.L. Moore :

Another element that has been reported to us has been a lack of pay transparency. Within individual organisations there seems to be regular feedback about pay secrecy, confidentiality and being unable to confer with your colleagues in relation to pay issues. Do you feel that that needs to be tackled?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

Yes, I think that is a big cultural shift. Having worked in H.R. for donkey years, you know, you used to get punished if you shared your salary, it was absolutely frowned upon to share your salary. That needs to change. You hear little glimmers generally smaller business and there is one in Jersey that has been particularly outspoken about how they share all of their pay and bonus information, and they are really upfront. You know, initially: "Oh, that is a bit strange" but it is one of the best ways to ensure that you have equal pay and start to reduce the gender pay gap if people are more transparent about their salaries. That is one of the cultural shifts that needs to take place. A number of organisations are far from that but it would make a tremendous difference. Yes, there are little glimmers of it happening and fortunately one or 2 of those organisations have been quite happy to shout about it, which is a good thing. We need more organisations to shout out the good stuff that they are doing and the positive impact that it has on their business as a result.

Senator K.L. Moore :

Have you had any interaction with the good business charter?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

I have not, no, not yet but I am keen too. But I have not yet, no.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Shall we go back? You touched on you were talking about mothers and fathers in different roles, so Jersey is reviewing the legislation at the moment and I think we now have 6 months that each caregiver can take. We do already have it is not shared parental leave, is it? No matter what your terms are. I think it is fair to say there is less of an uptake with fathers. What do you think we could as the States of Jersey or as a society to maybe change that and encourage fathers to or encourage workplaces to allow fathers to take it.

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

It is about changing culture and a large part of that is about the message that comes from leadership. Where you have senior men with children it would be great to see them taking up the options that are available to them and making it clear that this is acceptable. If you see senior people doing it

then others are going to feel more able to. I think it has to start from the top. I had a conversation with Tracy Garrad, who for a short while is the C.E.O. at H.S.B.C. - before she moves on to her next role - but she feels it is really important, flexible working is important. You cannot expect people presentism is pointless, so she makes a point of walking out at a decent time whenever she can. She does not work crazy hours. If she is leaving early to go and see a school play or pick up the kids, she will say it loudly and proudly so that it is demonstrably acceptable. I think you need to see that from the top for it to start to change the culture.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

In terms of funding parental leave, because at the moment the mother gets 6 weeks' funded leave and the father, I think, 2 weeks. That is going to be equalised, given approval.

Co-Founder, Diversity Network: Which is really important that it happens.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

But in terms of funding it there have been some calls from small businesses for the States to be funding that through taxation rather than the onus being with the businesses. What are your comments on that?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

If we are looking at it purely through the lens of gender equality then I think that should be the case. I think it needs to be significantly funded by the States through tax. I recognise that tax is a lot more complex than that and there is a lot of the more that is given to that, the less there is for other things. So it is a complex issue, I know, but if we are looking at purely through the gender pay gap lens then I think that would be incredibly helpful and I think it is important.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Do you think more fathers would take it up on more of an equal basis with mothers then?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

You would get less of a discrimination that we talked about earlier about reluctance to employ mothers as a result of it because of the cost issue. Yes, I think if more fathers were able to take it up it becomes more acceptable for everybody, does it not? It is not just then a burden thing it is a way we do things. This is how our society works. Time with your babies, time with your children is important and being able to be a parent and contribute to the economy and continue your career is important.

Just on that point, have you heard directly from businesses themselves about their reluctance to hire women, young women

Co-Founder, Diversity Network: I have not personally.

Deputy K.F. Morel : Fair enough.

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

I have read about in the J.E.P (Jersey Evening Post). It is hearsay, I have not personally had anyone say that to me.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

You mentioned some of the higher levels of businesses are usually quite male-dominated, do you think women face barriers to promotion and what do you think those barriers are?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

Barriers to promotion? Yes, I think there are lot of issues that are talked.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : You have covered some of it.

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

I think it is human nature to want to surround yourself with people like you. You are naturally drawn to people who you think are like you.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think we have probably covered this one, have you not?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

Yes, unconscious biases. I imagine there are very few business people that blatantly discriminate, or hope there is very few, but unconscious bias is certainly an issue and it does not just apply to women, it is a much bigger issue than purely a gender one.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

In terms of flexible working, you touched on that as well, what is the general culture among businesses towards family friendly, flexible working?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

Flexible working has been in place in some businesses for a very long time and in the U.K. it has been legislated for for quite some time, but in practice it is not always the case that flexible working is acceptable. I think, again, there are organisations where flexible working has been really well adopted and has made a big difference to an organisation as a result, but I think there are a lot of businesses that do not get flexible working yet.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

What do you think about Jersey as a whole? Would you say Jersey

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

As I say, a lot of my dealings are with some of the bigger corporates so I think a lot of the bigger corporates are pretty good and there are some great examples. I know one directorate at HSBC are trying to put together a department purely with flexible working arrangements. It works for the business. No one expects 9.00 to 5.00 office hours for a bank anymore so flexible working works for the business as well as individuals. It makes business sense. There are some very progressive organisations here, larger businesses generally. Or else some of the smaller, more agile, businesses, consultancies, where they have staff who work remotely, work overseas. They have got used to that culture. It does not matter where you are, you do not have to be sitting in the office 9.00 until 5.00. It is not just the bigger businesses, we are seeing it and hear it talked about a lot and probably many, many businesses have a flexible working policy in their employee handbook but they do not always work. A lot of it hinges on management understanding and capability. Certainly with my H.R. hat on, that is where businesses fall down a lot and where they get a lot of issues and a lot of logjams because of lack of training of the managers, a lack of understanding. If managers do not know how to make a flexible working arrangement work, it is not going to. You probably see quite a lot of that here. The policy is there but the practice is not necessarily.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

In terms of encouraging women back to work after they have had children or encouraging them back into full-time work, is there anything more that you think the States could be doing to assist that?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

Cost of childcare is a big one often cited. Of all the social media that we put through the Diversity Network, the ones that get the biggest response is anything related to flexible working. There is

huge demand for it and also the barrier of childcare costs. It just makes it impossible for some women to go back to work. It is just too expensive and that is a big issue.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

One thing I have heard is that Jersey does not have many part-time roles anymore. I do not know if you have seen that out and about.

Co-Founder, Diversity Network: I do not know.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Or term-time part-time.

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

Term-time is very rare. Term-time working is very rare.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Yes, it did not used to be, that is the thing. It used to be when I first came into the job market there were a lot more people I knew who were working part-time and term-time.

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

That is interesting, I wonder why that

Deputy K.F. Morel :

That is why I find it interesting. My experience has changed.

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

You very rarely see a term-time only work arrangement. You see a lot of part-time, a lot of part-time working arrangements but, yes, term-time, very rare.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Why do think that is?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

Business are scared, they do not understand how they can make it work. "Oh gosh, we are only going to have someone work a set number of weeks a year, how is that going to work?" It seems complex and difficult to manage. Communication internally is often an issue. But those things are not difficult to overcome. I think there is a sort of fear factor and a fear of setting a precedent: "Everybody will only want to work term time" which is not the case. A lot of people cannot afford to only work term time and a lot of people do not want to only work term time. But there is a fear of setting a precedent and the difficulty of managing it. If you do not manage it well, flexible working can cause problems but so many organisations demonstrate that it is not difficult to overcome the issues.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Do you think those difficulties are worth making an effort to overcome if they do indeed increase the diversity?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

Absolutely, because when I say we have a big response to our social media with regards to flexible working it is from individuals who want flexible working and asking for help but we have been contacted by a number of businesses - I have noticed particularly in the law recently - who are struggling to recruit and they have cottoned on that there is this huge pool of talented, experienced, capable women sitting at home and they want to tap into that market of talent. So they have been approaching us for help in that regard. Need is encouraging many organisations to investigate flexible working as a solution to some of their business issues.

[15:45]

Senator K.L. Moore :

You have described very clearly the cultural impact upon men, sometimes their decision is quite difficult, but one thing that is apparent, and I think you referred to it earlier, is that when a couple have their first child it is often the case that the woman is already slightly behind in terms of pay and therefore the decision is made that it is more economic for the woman to stop working and the man to carry on with his career. Do you, through your experience, have any understanding of why that happens?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

Again, it goes back to the other issues that I described earlier. I think, depending on what industry women might work in, it will often easier for a man to progress because it is a male-dominated environment or because the recruitment and promotion processes are unconsciously biased against women. There may be the confidence issues that I mentioned earlier. There are factors at play that you cannot always see, they are not always obvious, but certainly present barriers.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Despite the fact that we have an anti-discrimination law, are you saying that you think discrimination is still happening? I think you mentioned unconscious bias.

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

If you look at it through another diversity lens, this is one of the things that struck me when I first moved to Jersey, when people talk about recruitment or who they work with, it is: "Oh, yes, we went to the same school" and I wonder at the number of people who are going through C.V.s (curriculum vitae) and: "This one went to the same school as me, they must be good." They are not actively discriminating against the others but they are unconsciously drawn to the one who went to the same school. Unconscious bias is a big factor and if you are in charge of an organisation it is something that I would look at. There are lots of simple things you can do to help remove those biases, blind C.V.s, for example. Take out the name, the age, the gender, the school, the university, so people just focus on the skills. It makes a big difference.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Your organisation does some of these things to help companies overcome unconscious bias. Have you been approached by the States of Jersey, by any departments within the States?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Are you allowed to tell us which ones?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

I am probably not in a position to share too much detail. We have been approached and we have had discussions with, I think, 3 States departments. Hopefully there will be some outcomes from that. One individual, a senior woman, asked for obviously each States department can work differently because I have had 2 senior women who wanted to attend one of our female development programmes, one was not allowed and the other was in terms of financial backing from their department. So there is clearly different approaches. You know, there may be very good budgetary reasons for that not being possible right now.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Would you like to see States departments maybe engaging with you a bit more?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

Love to, absolutely. Yes. We have had some positive engagements with the States departments, definitely.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Well, I think that is all the questions from us. Is there anything else that you would like to add, Kate, before we wrap up?

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

I am just really pleased that you are doing this. I think it is incredibly important. It may be very optimistic on my part but there are 2 outcomes from the States perspective that I would love to see. One is that businesses of a certain number of employees are required to share their pay gap stats because I strongly feel that that could have the biggest impact in terms of change. I would love to see government working more closely with business to deliver change. That goes right back to early education. We are hoping to work with I met the new Director of Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning, Saboohi, she is fantastic, so hopefully we are going to do some session ability projects with her across business, the government and education. I think that could be incredibly powerful. There is a huge amount of goodwill and positive intent in the business community. There is momentum.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

If you have any relevant information, please do send it on to us and we can highlight that in the review.

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

Right. If there is anything else that we can help with, then we are very keen to.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Thank you. We really appreciate your time today.

Co-Founder, Diversity Network:

Thank you, good luck. Really looking forward to seeing the outcomes of your research.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

We will send you a copy when it is out. I will draw the meeting to a close. Thank you everyone who attended today.

Co-Founder, Diversity Network: Thank you.

[15.50]