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Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel Population and Migration
Witness: Jersey Farmers' Union and Jersey Finance
Friday, 5th July 2006
Panel:
Senator K.L. Moore (Chairman)
Deputy S.M. Ahier of St. Helier (Vice-Chairman) Deputy J.H. Perchard of St. Saviour Connétable R. Vibert of St. Peter
Connétable K. Shenton-Stone of St. Martin
Witnesses:
Mr. P.E. Le Maistre, President, Jersey Farmers' Union Mr. D Richardson, Vice President, Jersey Farmers' Union Mr. J. Monahan, Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance Ms. A. Bryant, Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance
[13:00]
Deputy J.H. Perchard of St. Saviour :
this public hearing. Before we start would you mind just having a quick look at the witness notice, have a read through and just confirm that you are happy to proceed on those grounds. Thank you very much and just for the record we will introduce ourselves before asking our questions. I am Deputy Jess Perchard. I am a member of the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel and leading on this particular review.
Senator K.L. Moore (Chairman):
I am Senator Kristina Moore and I am the Chair of the panel.
Connétable R. Vibert of St. Peter :
Constable Richard Vibert , member of the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel.
Connétable K. Shenton-Stone of St. Martin :
Constable Karen Shenton-Stone , member of the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel.
Deputy S.M. Ahier of St. Helier Deputy Steven Ahier , Vice-Chair.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
If you would not mind introducing yourselves also.
President, Jersey Farmers' Union:
I am Peter Le Maistre. I am President of the Jersey Farmers' Union.
Vice President of the Jersey Farmers Union:
Doug Richardson, Vice President of the Jersey Farmers' Union.
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
John Monahan, Chief Executive Officer of Jersey Finance.
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
Amy Bryant, Deputy Chief Executive of Jersey Finance.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Thank you.
Scrutiny Officer:
Simon Spottiswoode, Scrutiny Officer.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Fantastic. Well, just to clarify before we start the reason why we have both Jersey Finance and the Farmers' Union today is purely logistical. We were hoping to have as many hearings as possible in group sessions and it just happens that this is how it has fallen so I hope you do not find that too odd. We will start by asking various parties whether you have made any contributions so far to the work of the Migration Policy Development Board. Have you been invited to make a submission?
President, Jersey Farmers' Union:
No. Well, as far as agriculture goes we have not and I do not know if we will be because I notice that I think it is on page 3: "As a result of our actions during our term of office we will support and strengthen our financial services sector, support and strengthen our tourist industry." Agriculture does not even get a mention.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Would you hope to be consulted?
President, Jersey Farmers' Union: I would have hoped to be, yes.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: You would expect to be.
President, Jersey Farmers' Union: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Okay, thank you.
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance: No, we have not had an engagement.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Okay. How do you expect the policies put forward by the Migration Board to affect areas of your industry?
President, Jersey Farmers' Union:
Right. I know you do not like going backwards but almost a year ago there was a policy going to be in place which was really a coming from Ian Course(?) 2:02:37 that we were going to move to a system that was sort of work permits for everybody and then a 4-year licence after that and then I think I cannot remember criminal checks, et cetera. From the agricultural industry point of view we were very happy with most of that because as far as seasonal labour the industry has always done better when we have had work permits in place. This goes back obviously to sort of
pre-European Union days. We had a little bit. We had a little 2-year period when the Polish first arrived because they were still outside the European Union when we first started getting them in. The reason it works well for us is because we the seasonal staff it means they come to the Island, they are on your farm, they cannot work for anyone else, which is almost the reverse of what is happening at the moment where I do not know what other industries are telling you but certainly on the ground and in agriculture people are leaving our farms and going to work in other businesses and it makes life very difficult. You think you have got 10 staff and 2 weeks later you have got 8 still left. This is not hearsay because I know on my own farm 5 people left us after the planting; 2 went to a building site, one went to a cleaners, one went back home and the other one went I am not sure where but stayed in Jersey. So that is happening because I think generally there is a shortage of what we called unskilled or semi-skilled staff in the Island and agriculture unfortunately probably pays the lowest wages. So work permits for us are really good. On the other side, unlike our colleagues in finance, I believe the figure for licensed employees in other words the I know that is not the right term but the sort of people that you have to get permission to bring in the Island, the number in agriculture is very low. I think it is in the sort of well, certainly in single figures. It might be around 6 from what I could find out. So we do not trouble the Government if you like on that front and those people, or the ones I am thinking of, 2 or 3 of them will probably be replaced but because they they are brought in because the conditions that we are having to grow and pack our crops in have increased a lot in the last 10 years and so we need specialist people on things like pesticides, which, as you know, we are doing a lot of work on. So we have had to bring a few people in but we do not bring many in. The only downside to that policy we felt was this idea that after 4 years people would have to leave and we were before it got pulled we were talking about whether it would be possible. We have a problem with that policy for things like the cattle industry where to find a good herdsman can take perhaps a couple of years to train them up to be really useful and then after another 2 years you have said they have to go home. Now, in our industry, as you know, certainly from people who come from outside the Island we tend to house them all so it does not really have implications on housing. Once someone has been here what he calls almost fulltime for 4 years obviously they are contributing I.T.I.S. (Income Tax Instalment System), they are contributing G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax), they are contributing social security so I do not see that there would be any reason why they could not stay in the Island for a bit longer perhaps under a special agricultural license where they would have to have tied housing to our farms.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Thank you. That is really helpful and you have answered quite a few of our questions so what I think I will do now is go to finance, ask the questions and flip back to you to fill in the gaps.
President, Jersey Farmers' Union:
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Not at all, no. It is incredibly helpful. So, Mr. Monahan, how do you expect the policies put forward by the Migration Board to affect your industry?
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
Well, I think just to sort of put into perspective I think it is probably fair to say at the start that the financial services industry do not bring people into Jersey if there is an alternative. So if the skills are available to us in Jersey that is where we go and if you look at the numbers in recent years we are most of new hires over 83 per cent of new hires are recruited locally and that includes school leavers and graduates. The reason for that is that from a financial point of view in the first instance it is much more expensive to recruit off-Island and you also carry quite a lot of risk because if you recruit a specialist who comes to Jersey with family and the partner or the kids do not settle they can leave. As a business that costs a huge amount of time, effort and money and is not a satisfactory solution. So the expertise that we apply to Government to bring in is because we cannot get the expertise or the skills on-Island. We just need to clarify that so there is not the knee-jerk reaction within industry that we need to fill a position and let us go off-Island. Our industry invests a huge amount of money training and developing people. So we have recruited again in the stats produced this week a significant number of school leavers and return graduates into our industry and pretty much from day one those people are being developed to do the job and to do the next job and to develop themselves a career. So in terms of investing in our people as an industry I think we invest hugely. I would agree that if you cannot in relation to getting skilled people in and trying to limit the length of time they are going to be here because you might be surprised to hear that to get somebody with the right level of skills and expertise you sometimes have to sell Jersey. People do not necessarily want to disrupt their lives and move so despite the there is a misunderstood concept that everybody wants to come here but not everybody wants to come and you do have to put work in to persuade people that this is a good place to live; that there is a good career opportunity to come and live and work here but if you restrict that in time and say: "Well, you can come but you have to be gone in 3 years", well, people will not invest. They will not change their lives to come and make a real contribution and they will not disrupt their families. In a lot of cases the level of people that we are trying to attract in say for essentially employed are people that by definition of their age and/or experience will have some possibly family or at least a partner so that is a pretty important point.
Senator K.L. Moore :
May I just interrupt? Could you point us to some evidence of other jurisdictions that might have attempted to use such a policy please?
Well, I think you do not have to look too far to see some of the challenges that Guernsey face in relation to population and some of that is down to some of the restrictions they have in terms of: "Can you make it a long-term home?" It is not quite as straightforward or attractive as it is here. Some of the Caribbean Islands have significant restrictions in terms of the length of time so you stay a limited period and then you go and that results in it being quite difficult a lot of times to recruit the right people that you want. The thing is that not alone does it mean they are looking very much and working very much on a short term they do not invest in the jurisdiction or necessarily in the business level that you would expect them to invest whereas I would argue that the policy that we have here means that people come here and can feel part of the community very quickly and make a contribution and have an interest in the community. So I think the way that Jersey has operated over the years has made it in everyone's interests for people coming into the Island to invest and not just in the business but also in the whole community.
Senator K.L. Moore :
Both the Chief Minister and the chair of the Policy Development Board have said that it is important not to compromise on time in developing this policy. Would you agree with them in that respect?
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
Yes, I think you have got to get it right because while we are looking at the policy and it is very easy to look at a policy as just an internal policy but externally the view will be, is this Island open for business? I think it is very important for us to make sure that the messages that land confirm that we are open for business. You know, again, just to re-emphasise that the request to bring somebody to Jersey by our industry is not taken lightly. It is because we cannot get those skills and those skills are needed to develop the industry. One of the things that Jersey has been very good at is adapting to the changes in the external environment, both in terms of the type of customers, the type of products that the financial services sector has developed over a period of time and by being adaptive, of being forward-thinking, means that we are able to cope with the changes and also means that we are prepared to bring the people in to make sure that we stay in the game, if you like, because this is an ever-changing environment and from time to time you do need to bring in specialist skills.
Senator K.L. Moore :
The board has said that they are going to publish findings in the autumn followed by a consultation and then hopefully a debate in quarter one of next year. Are you happy with that as a timeframe?
President, Jersey Farmers' Union:
Well, I have got new proposals to measure migration. It is going to the States mid-2010 and it was going to: "New migration law would contain controls to allow Jersey to open or close the tap on inward migration depending on what the States set on population." Well, that has not worked and that has taken 9 years. So I think I do not I mean there is loads of books to read. There is a book on that is right, this thing, Jersey Resident Population 2017 Estimate. Well, if you look at the worst case scenario or if you look at the scenario if we carried on the 2015-2016 rate we would be 200,000 people.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
So would you like to see more urgent are you saying that this programme is unacceptable or
President, Jersey Farmers' Union:
I am not saying that you want to rush it. I am just saying when you do it you have got to make a decision, are we going to the Senator and I will disagree about building houses at St. Peter but just as a general rule they were going to build 65 houses on a sorry, I am the Constable now. They were going to build 65 houses on 11 vergées and at the moment the estimates not on the silly figures but just on ordinary figures show that we are going to need 1,000 vergées of land in the next 9 years. I think we have put you know, it is a short submission but I think we have it there. It seems very difficult that once you have done that where do you go in 10-years's time?
[14:15]
Do you say: "Well, we have got a whole load more people going to retire so we will bring another so another 2,000 vergées goes. The Island I do not say you have to rush it. I am just saying I think you have to get it right and there has to be a balance between the amount of people who come into the Island and keeping businesses going. I think we all but it is again, look through here. It is frightening, you need 6 new schools.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Mentioning the most recent migration policy from December 2017 the policy included: "Prioritising employment licence requests from businesses, invest in skills and training, short-term work permits, criminal record checks for migrants, photos and registration cards." Would you like to see any of these components mentioned in this policy in the new migration policy?
President, Jersey Farmers' Union:
Well, as I say, I think from our industry's point of view and certainly from the seasonal staff we would welcome work permits. The other things, I mean I think they should be there anyway. But I do not
one thing that no one I do not know if there is a middle ground here because I think we go on
to say later that we are not sure that this 10-year residency rule is right because, as Mr. Monahan says, you have got to balance between getting people in, so you have got to attract them in because people just do not just come to Jersey. They have got choices. They can go anywhere in the world now. But on the other hand it seems to me that people coming for 10 years is not that long. I mean I have met people who have retired from England because after 35 years they have got a full pension, they come to Jersey for 10 years and then they can buy a house. Do not even enter the working so it is not a very long time and I wondered whether has anyone ever considered a if you go to Australia for example it is the only one I know well you have a point system to go there. Now, could you have a point system where you say: "Well, if we are bringing in a doctor for the hospital who is an absolute necessity well he would get so many points"? He would be able to get a house after 10 years. If you are bringing in someone to manage we will use our industry, a potato company that after 7 years they can go because someone could replace them, you would say: "Well, they could stay" but their housing qualification might be 15. So I do not know if there are ways to get the balance between bringing people in and the amount of people that are coming in because where did the I do not know it was 1,200 last year, whatever. Where do they all go? You are going to have stopped all the licences. Every industry is moaning because you cannot get licences so where do these 1,200 people where do they go?
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Thank you. Do you have anything to add, Mr. Monahan?
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
Yes. I think in terms of criminal checks and all of that we do not have a problem with any of that. I mean we do not underestimate the challenge you have got in this area but for me one of the key things is that it is about the number of people that are in work that are paying tax that are supporting the wider economy and that is pretty key. I think that the absolute number is always going to be controversial because if you come up with a number there will be plenty of people who will tell you that the number is not enough or it is too much and I think that that is but you cannot ignore the fact that you have an ageing population. If you do nothing today in 10 years' time you are not going to have enough people in work to pay. One of the points that we have made recently was that the cost of providing services now both in terms of the level of service that you are providing but also with the regulations that you have put in place and if you take, for example, the schools as an example, the number of teachers and support they need in schools now by comparison to 20 years ago has changed dramatically because of restrictions on classroom sizes, because of the regulations that have to be followed et cetera, et cetera. So even the basic services that you are providing today needs more people than those services required 20 years ago and when you start talking about absolute numbers and take that into that is a big factor as well, quite apart from the wider economy. So, as I said, it is not an easy one and one of the things that we sort of feel as an industry is that it is very difficult to select and say we will support that industry, we will not support the other, because one of the points that I feel is quite important is that Jersey, from a financial services point of view, has a lot of key strengths with the expertise and the experience and all of that but there are some other soft factors that makes Jersey a very attractive place. People like to do business in places they like to come. So when I was in industry I used to always try and encourage potential new clients to stay overnight so I could bring them back and show them a bit of the Island, bring them to a nice restaurant and invariably they would say: "I never knew this place was so nice" and we would say: "Well, next time you come, come Friday, bring your partner and make a weekend of it." It is an attractive place and people like coming. So why is it attractive? Okay. We will say the financial services sector is great but the countryside looks good. We have got a good hospitality industry and all of those things add up. So I think the challenge that you have got is to try and ensure that whatever policy comes out tries to support all of the industries as opposed to just one or 2. It is a real challenge. There is not a simple solution to say: "We are only going to encourage this and ignore all that" because I think it is all part of the Jersey ecosystem.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Thank you. Just because you have alluded to it I am going to jump to Deputy Ahier 's question on the ageing population. It is question 5, Steve.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
If inward migration of over 1,000 people per year was to continue what effect would this have on the way your respective industries operation? How would it affect their businesses?
President, Jersey Farmers' Union:
It would be loss of land I think. That would be our that is our biggest concern.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
From the finance perspective?
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
Again, just to go back to one of the points I made earlier on, if you look at recruitment to our industry last year we recruited 240 kids from school or returning graduates. So in terms of employment numbers we are looking to the local market pretty much all of the time. If the number overall goes up by 1,000 does it have a direct impact on us? Probably not unless we are recruiting some of them directly in. So in terms of our industry because most of our industry is off-Island and the income comes from off-Island the local banking industry or the local financial services industry it is quite limited in terms of the international financial services sector that we operate from here. So by having 1,000 people coming into the Island is not going to generate or even move the dial in terms of our industry overall from profitability or income point of view.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
That is very interesting, thank you. Constable.
The Connétable of St. Peter :
Peter, you already touched on some of this but you may have the industry has varying reliance on workers migrating to Jersey. How do future migration policies in Jersey reflect this? For instance, what amendment should be made to the current residency laws? You touched on the fact that the 10-year rule may not be necessary.
President, Jersey Farmers' Union:
Yes. I was really speaking as a resident more than from a point because, as I said to you, the number of sort of licensed employees in our industry is very small. The bulk of our labour still comes from well, that is not true really. If you take permanent employees we are probably 50 per cent local people. Certainly the smaller farms are nearly all local people with perhaps only one or 2 staff and then we have got a big seasonal influx and, as I said to you, work permits for us is
The Connétable of St. Peter : Is the thing, yes.
President, Jersey Farmers' Union:
is the thing. That is what we like and we think it is great for us and it is great for the Island because people come in, they work, they go back and they do their 2 or 3 months, whatever the time period would be, then they come back the following year, which is how Jersey operated, as I understand it, from the mid-1920s up until the European Union. French labour all came in.
Male speaker:(?) 2:23:53
Amy, are you going to answer this one? Yes, I had a feeling you might.
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
I think I would really just echo what Joe said earlier which is about ensuring that Jersey remained an attractive place for the essential skills that we might want to bring in. There is always a preferred option to recruit either locally or from new entrants to the labour market through schools or new graduates coming back but for those essential skills that do need to come in the preference is that Jersey remains an attractive place. I think coming back to one of the earlier points, and I think it is related, there are a number of other reviews ongoing at the moment that I think have a bearing on this one which is around the skills and post-16 education reviews and I think also looking at an economic framework for the Island that is why I think this review should be considered in the context of those as well because I think there are interdependencies between the 2 and they are very much related. If we, as a finance industry, are looking to ensure that we can, as much as possible, recruit from home grown talent we need to ensure that our education system and the pupils within it are given access to the right learning and the right skills to be able to come into the industry so that we are not looking to bring in new entrants from off-Island to the industry.
The Connétable of St. Peter :
Do you think there is a danger that financial institutions that cannot find the right skills here would start to choose to outsource some of these jobs to other jurisdictions and of course those jobs are likely never to return? Do you think that is probably a threat?
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
Yes, that is always a threat. As an industry, we need to make sure that we remain competitive and cost is an issue and skills are. There are 2 big issues in financial services, cost and skills, and they are not unrelated. So from an industry perspective Jersey is where it is as a result of some very good policy calls and from a lot of hard work at regulatory level, at industry level. So we talk about the fact that Jersey is, in terms of financial services, back to pre-crisis levels of employment. That did not happen by accident. That happened as a result of a lot of hard work at Government, at industry in the regulatory level. So I think one thing that we need to be really careful of, is not to take the industry for granted. Increasingly the firms operating here are global. In the past the banks would have been the global businesses and sort of that would be it but now our trust businesses are increasingly global. They have options and as those firms get bigger Jersey has to stay relevant and has to remain attractive from a cost competitive point of view because you are quite right, we have firms that are acquiring businesses in different parts of the world and they have the option to say: "I cannot get the people here, I can get them in another jurisdiction cheaper", yes, the work will go there.
The Connétable of St. Peter :
By acquiring those businesses it has become that much easier to make those comparisons.
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
Absolutely because at the top level it does not really matter because from their perspective the measure is what the whole company profit is making. While a lot of the loyalty to Jersey is here because the people running those companies are either Jersey people originally or have been here for a long time the concern would be that as those people move out of the businesses the new management teams in place may not have the same loyalty to Jersey that was here in the past so it is a threat to us and one we have got to be constantly aware of.
Senator K.L. Moore :
If we could just return to the Policy Development Board; were either of your bodies invited to join the board?
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance: Before my time, no.
Senator K.L. Moore :
No. Because, of course, they do have the Chamber of Commerce and a representative of the Institute of Directors on the Policy Development Board. Do you feel that your industry is adequately represented through them or is there a conduit of information between yourselves and them?
President, Jersey Farmers' Union:
We have had no contact with them; either from them or from us.
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
What is the relationship between the Policy Development Board and H.A.W.A.G. (Housing and Work Advisory Group)?
Senator K.L. Moore :
Well, the chair of the Policy Development Board is the chair of H.A.W.A.G. as currently constituted.
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
All right. Well, we meet H.A.W.A.G. twice a year. We had a meeting with them last week in fact. So we are feeding in probably through H.A.W.A.G.
Senator K.L. Moore :
Okay, thank you. Should the board, perhaps, be designed to accommodate a greater spread of views in your opinion?
Vice President, Jersey Farmers' Union:
It would probably be not a bad idea to include the agriculture industry. We have a particular view that is different to others, which suits our industry. So quite possibly, yes. Quite unique in that regard.
I suspect that our relationship with H.A.W.A.G. is the way the Policy Development Board gets feedback from us, I suspect.
Senator K.L. Moore : That is helpful, thank you.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
I am just now going to being mindful of time we have some specific questions for each of you and we will spend half the remaining time on each so do forgive me if I cut you off when we get to the changeover point. I think if we start with the J.F.U. (Jersey Farmers' Union) and then we will go to Jersey Finance.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
You said in your submission: "That the Government has failed significantly over the last 10 years in reducing reliance on inward migration." Can you elaborate on this please?
President, Jersey Farmers' Union:
Well, the figures stand for themselves, do not they? As I said, bringing that thing it was though we were going to be able well, Government was going to be able to turn the tap on and off when they wanted. They set a limit of about 325 people a year and it has averaged 700 in the last 3 years, which is about 1,200.
[14:30]
So I think that was our first point; that it has not worked. Again, the response to the questions was
some of them were specific to our industry and I thought that was just more general as an Island where the only downside from our industry, as I have mentioned twice already, is the loss of land because if we lose land we cannot farm and if you have got 1,200 people coming in a year it puts pressure on finding land for housing because unless you are going to reclaim some more the town is running out of land. So, yes, the Government has failed because the figures say they have failed and, as I said and the finance industry are saying, they have not brought significant well, it sounds like they have not brought significant numbers in so I do not understand where these 1,200 people average over the last 3 years where have they gone? Are they all on building sites? Are they in schools? I do not know where they are. So is it the States have brought them all in?
Senator K.L. Moore :
You, yourselves, still struggle to
President, Jersey Farmers' Union:
Well, our figures are going down, as you know, year on year and I notice that my sort of dig at the Migration Policy Board at the beginning because they did not include us but our productivity I think is our increase in productivity over the last 5 years is probably greater than any other industry so
Senator K.L. Moore :
Yet you still want to bring in workers from
President, Jersey Farmers' Union:
Well, we can still automate some more but at the end of the day we have 2 problems; if we wish to grow vegetables we need staff because it certainly winter vegetables which is mainly what Jersey is growing now you cannot really automate and a robotic system is probably 5 to 10 years away so we need them for that. As you know, with the potato crop you can automate so much but at the end of the day you have to plant some fields by hand and you have to man the harvesters. We cannot have unmanned harvesters. We have to man the pack houses to a certain extent. So, yes, we are shedding as much staff as we can mainly to do with the well, mostly to do with the minimum wage to be frank and partly to do with the difficulty of recruiting anyway. You are seeing now already
I mean this is not just broadly in fact that when you talk about staff on farms anyone who lives around the coast, all the cottees(?) 2:33:09 were planted. The last 4 or 5 years there is less and less cottees being planted because people do not want to hang on to staff because it is too expensive so unfortunately even Rozel, which used to be one of the flagship areas for cottees there were 2 not planted this year. So people say: "Things are not changing" but they are changing
all around it. We have automated where we can but we still need seasonal staff. That does not because we house them all that does not really affect this migration policy too much.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
How long do your migrant workers usually stay in the Island and how do you help integrate them into Island life?
President, Jersey Farmers' Union:
How do we integrate them into Island life? To be honest with you if it is the seasonal staff you are talking about most of them stay 7 months. It is January to July. Some of them will come back for the standing, which is 2 months, October to November. So they might do 9 months in a year. As far as integrating into the Island I do not the seasonal staff, I do not know if we encourage or discourage them. Some of them the Poles are quite religious, as you know, so quite a few go to mass on Sunday. Other than that they tend to stay among themselves and part of that really is I
mean my staff this week will be working 6.30 until 6.30, 6 days a week and because it is so hot we might have to work Sunday morning so you do not get a lot of time to socialise. So, no, they do not
the seasonal staff tend to come in the Portuguese who started on the farms have tended to as a move into Jersey community through starting gardening businesses and cleaning businesses and everything else. The more educated Polish people who come in and have gone into all sorts of work including finance but the rural types that we generally get on the farms they come to make money to go back to reinvest in their farms and their houses in Poland.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
There have been suggestions from the Policy Development Board that they might look to introducing English language tests for migrants. Do you have a view on the impact that that would have on your industry?
President, Jersey Farmers' Union:
Yes, it would have a big impact on our industry. We do not think it is necessary for seasonal staff. I personally think it is very necessary for people who come in and work in shops or even in hotels where you expect there is no reason we tend to have at least after a number of years you get a lot of people that can speak English because they have come back but and the younger people now are learning English in schools in Poland, even from a very young age. My driver's 2 girls they are 6 and 5 and I think they are both learning English in school in Poland where they are because English is seen as the language to learn to move on.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Is it compulsory testing for seasonal workers to be
President, Jersey Farmers' Union:
Well, I think it would be over the top for seasonable agricultural staff.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Thank you. Has anyone got any other questions for the J.F.U. before we move on to Jersey Finance? Lovely, thank you.
The Connétable of St. Peter :
This is for Jersey Finance. You outlined in your submission the need to continue to import certain specialist skills that are otherwise unavailable into the Island. Would most of the views outlined in your submission be alleviated through reforms to the education system to both improve productivity, diversify industries and ensure a higher percentage of on-Island job hires? Given that you already source 83 per cent from the Island but are there things that could be done via the education system?
I think generally the skills and experience that you are looking for that we have to bring in has been acquired over a period of time in whatever specialist sector that we are recruiting to. I guess it is I suspect, and Amy can agree or disagree, it might be expecting quite a lot for the education system to be able to prepare somebody for that level. I think that the people that you are bringing in, you are bringing them in because they know technically the product or the service or whatever or they have an international network that can help the business or they have a lot of expertise running businesses. So it is not it is something to be honest that is going to be outside of the education system to be able to prepare for in my view.
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
Yes. No, I think that is absolutely right. I think as regards the education system and the things that the finance sector would look for it to deliver one of the areas that we talk a lot about is the need to have digital skills coming through from our students and I think that is something that will continue and that is important not just for a distinct and unique digital sector but also for the future of the financial services sector. One of the things we also talked about when we were looking at the post- 16 education review was also about ensuring that students are geared up with soft skills as well and cultural language skills. Also one of the things is it is very important to have the right attitude as well. So teamwork, resilience; those aspects coming through that can be taught in the education system are really important but I agree as well with what Joe said around the more senior hires.
The Connétable of St. Peter :
Okay. You also stated: "It is not clear that stopping licences would control the population." Can you elaborate on that?
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
I think the point there was that the licences piece is not necessarily what is driving up the population numbers.
The Connétable of St. Peter :
I think that answers the next bit as well because you are saying what effect would stopping licences have on business and tax intakes but it is sort of all covered in the one thing.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Any other questions for Jersey Finance? Is there anything that you would like to add to any of the things that you have said so far today?
No. Thank you very much for inviting us and if you have any further queries Amy or I will be very pleased to help if we can.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Thank you. Is there anything you would like to add before we close the meeting?
President, Jersey Farmers' Union:
No. I think we are in the same position. Thank you very much for inviting us and, yes, no, we are very pleased to have made our views known to you.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Thank you and thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it.
[14:41]