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Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel Population and Migration
Witness: Migration Policy Development Board
Wednesday, 3rd July 2019
Panel:
Senator K.L. Moore (Chairman)
Deputy S.M. Ahier of St. Helier (Vice-Chairman) Deputy J.H. Perchard of St. Saviour Connétable R. Vibert of St. Peter
Witnesses:
Connétable C.H. Taylor of St. John , Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board Ms. S. Duhamel, Director, Policy and Strategy
Mr. N. Stocks, Policy Principal, Immigration and Migration
[15:08]
Deputy J.H. Perchard of St. Saviour :
Thank you very much for attending this hearing this afternoon. May I ask you to confirm that you have read the witness notice and that you are happy to proceed?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: Yes, I am happy to proceed, thank you.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Thank you, Chairman. Before we start, we will just go around the table introducing ourselves.
Senator K.L. Moore (Chairman):
I am Senator Kristina Moore . I am the Chairman of the Corporate Services Panel.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Deputy Jess Perchard, member of the panel.
Connétable R. Vibert of St. Peter : Richard Vibert , member of the panel.
Deputy S.M. Ahier of St. Helier (Vice-Chairman): Deputy Steve Ahier , Vice-Chair.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Constable Chris Taylor , Chairman of the Migration Policy Board.
Policy Principal, Immigration and Migration:
Neil Stocks, Immigration and Migration Policy Principal.
Director, Policy and Strategy: Sue Duhamel, Central Policy Unit.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Thank you very much. Chairman, in the project scoping document for the Policy Development Board, it is made clear that your aim is to reduce reliance on inward net migration: "as part of balancing the population pressures against environmental needs." Which specific environmental needs are you referring to here?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
It is mostly the environmental needs of the economy. We need to ensure that it is a balance and that those areas that require additional resources in the form of labour are able to access them or at least their cases are heard so that the correct balance can be given.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
In this context, does "environmental" refer to an infrastructural ... a built environment or a natural environment?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
I think all forms of environment. It is important we keep the Island the pleasant Island it is. It is important at the same time that we have the infrastructure available and it is a balance right across the board.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Thank you. It is also stated in the scoping document that the purpose of the board is to develop responsive controls over who can come and live and work here. Could you give an example of a responsive control in this context?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Yes. If you go back only quite recently, we had over 2,000 unemployed some 10 years ago. We now are in a position where unemployment is as near zero as you can get it, so policy is obviously going to be different, so the flexibility to reflect that is needed.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
What consultation have you had so far with relevant stakeholders?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Very little. We have been talking at the moment to ... we have been evidence-gathering, so we have been going to the departments and gaining the evidence from the departments. We have not gone out to consultation or to any of the business groups, environmental groups and all the groups on the Island, which is what we will be doing in the next phase.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
When do you expect that next phase to start?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: It will be September to Christmas, essentially.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
As part of your research, do you intend to meet with all Ministers?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
All Ministers will be invited. Whether they wish to add anything is entirely up to them, yes.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Yes, thank you. If we can move on now to Senator Moore 's questions.
Senator K.L. Moore :
Constable, we have discussed somewhat earlier this week, I think, the timetable for your review, but just for clarity, because there were some aspects we were not clear about, could you tell us when it is anticipated that this report will be published?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
The Migration Policy Development Board is set up by the Chief Minister and so we report to the Chief Minister once we have finished our work. I anticipate that will be quarter 1 next year.
Senator K.L. Moore :
Have there been any changes in the board's timeline to date?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
I would not say changes. We have had adjustments, because when the board was set up, Brexit was due 30th March and it is now 30th October, so Brexit has been delayed some 6 or 7 months, so obviously we need to hopefully take account of what Brexit might do.
Senator K.L. Moore :
On Monday you told us that you were due to publish your findings in the autumn, so now you are going to be consulting in the autumn, so that has been pushed back slightly. It is the findings that will be published in quarter 1 of 2020?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
No. The report will be published in quarter 1, 2020. The findings will be essentially thoughts that we have that can go out to consultation with the interested parties, because you have to have something for them to consult on. For example, if we said, for argument's sake ...
Senator K.L. Moore :
So it would normally be called a Green Paper or a consultation document?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: A consultation, yes.
Senator K.L. Moore :
That is much clearer, thank you. When do you expect the policy to be lodged and debated in the States?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
We are merely an advisory board. We advise on what we believe would be the correct policy. This goes to the Chief Minister. It is for him then to choose, agree or disagree, with the recommendations of the board and the advice on policy that we will give, so it is really over to him at that time.
[15:15]
Senator K.L. Moore :
Would you agree, Chair, that the failure to introduce key proposals through the board's work would result in a failure in Government then?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
If we do not come up with something positive and do not introduce something positive as a Government, yes, there will be a failure, but that is not going to happen.
Senator K.L. Moore : It will not happen?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: No.
Senator K.L. Moore :
Right. How can you be confident that that will not happen?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
The only bit I am not confident about is if and when ... not if, but when it goes to the Assembly that the Assembly disagree, but I am sure that the Council of Ministers and the Government will be united behind the policy that the Chief Minister brings forward as a result of our work.
Senator K.L. Moore :
You feel confident that the Chief Minister will adopt the proposals put forward in this report?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: The majority of them, yes.
Senator K.L. Moore :
Is that why he has selected the board that he has selected?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
He did not select ... well, he selected the board in consultation with myself. We felt it was important to have across the spectrum members. We have 3 lay members, we have 2 Back-Benchers and we have 3 Ministers, myself, Deputy Young and ...
Senator K.L. Moore :
I will park that there for later questioning, if I may. Just returning to the scoping document, I have one question about the risks that are outlined in the scoping document: "Reputational damage to the Government of Jersey and the States Assembly if the new migration policy has little or no effect on controlling migration levels." How will the effect of the policy be measured?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
It will be measured annually by the Statistics Unit on the number of people that come into the Island. It will be the public of the Island that judge it.
Senator K.L. Moore : So success being ...
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: I do not know at the moment.
Senator K.L. Moore :
Okay. In 6.6 in the scoping document it states: "The full implications of proposed changes must be mapped in the short and long term." How long is the long term and how far into the future will the mapping go?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
The current mapping that we have been provided with is going up to 2065, so that I suppose is the long term. Prior to that is the medium term and prior to that is the short term.
Senator K.L. Moore : Okay, thank you.
The Connétable of St. Peter :
You have touched on how the members of the board were selected. Do you believe the correct weight has been given to each of the Island's major economic sectors when establishing the board's membership?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
I disapprove of boards of 15, 20 people and therefore you do not want a large board. It needs to be manageable board. We wrote to both the Institute of Directors and to the Chamber of Commerce and asked them to bring forward a representative, which is what they have done.
The Connétable of St. Peter :
The bodies of the finance industry, were they written to?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: We did not write to Jersey Financial Services, no.
The Connétable of St. Peter : No?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: No.
The Connétable of St. Peter :
Okay. I would have thought that was a sector that should have been included. I would not have thought the Chamber of Commerce covered the financial sector.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
The Institute of Directors I think does to some degree. It was decided to choose Michael Oliver, who is a man of immense knowledge and ability, and I feel he is, as it were, involved in the finance industry and therefore a very good member to have.
The Connétable of St. Peter :
Thanks very much. During the hearing with the Minister for the Environment earlier this week, he signalled his approval for the Housing Policy Development Board to have an independent chair. Was this something that was considered for the Migration Policy Development Board?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
I think that question is probably better addressed to the Chief Minister. He asked me if I would chair it and I said yes.
The Connétable of St. Peter : Okay, fair enough.
Senator K.L. Moore :
Was any consideration of the average age or diversity of the board taken into account when selecting the membership?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Personally, no, because I do not look for different gender or age. I am not discriminatory in any way. I look at a person as a person and I judge them on that ability in that person, so I think we have a very balanced board.
The Connétable of St. Peter :
Although there seems to be a lack of representation from those under the age of 35, so how will you ensure that due consideration is given to that group?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
No doubt when we get to the consultation stage we will look to those groups to make representations.
The Connétable of St. Peter : Okay, thank you.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
Thank you, Chairman. What are your main concerns regarding population and migration in Jersey from a policy-making perspective?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: My biggest concern is getting it right.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: What does that look like?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
At the present moment, I do not know, but essentially it needs to be sustainable, with all the environmental impacts, both on the environment itself - the built environment, the infrastructure environment, housing - and businesses need the necessary workforce, so it is a balance.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
But if inward migration of over 1,000 people per year was to continue, what effect would this have on the way the Island's public services are run?
That is a very interesting question. I can remember the question being asked similarly, that if we ever went over 100,000, the Island would implode because our infrastructure would not cope. We have had representations from Housing, Growth and Environment, who have said what the capacities are for their sewage treatment plant, what the capacities are for water, so from the utilities point of view, we know what those capacities are and where that hurdle currently stands. But in both cases they said there are measures we can take that will allow the population to grow above those limits if necessary.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
Will that necessitate another reservoir?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: I am not a water engineer. I would not know.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
What migration planning assumptions are you currently using to develop your findings?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
We are not using any assumptions at the moment, other than those that are already in place.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
At your fourth meeting, your action point 1 was: "Statistics Jersey Economic Unit to provide advice on the feasibility of statistical modelling of the net cost per individual of migration." Has this been received yet?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: Yes.
Deputy S.M. Ahier : Oh, it has?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: Yes, it is online. It is the Government receipts.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
Wonderful. How will this data be used in the development of the migration policy?
It is an extremely useful document and it will in some areas be very useful, particularly when we are examining the value of an incomer, of any resident. I have just opened it at random. Here we are. If you have got ... I will find a better example. There are so many examples here, which is wonderful, but it does mean there is rather a lot to look at. Here we are. If you have a couple and they are both working and they have 3 children, then they will need to be earning something in the region of £130,000 a year as a joint income before the level of tax they pay outweighs the cost of education, infrastructure, health and so on. We now know for the first time where the breakeven point is for somebody coming into the Island. For a single person, that figure is somewhere in the region of ... rather than quote it, I will have to look it up.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
Would it not be reasonable to assume ...
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: £24,000.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
... that the majority of people coming into the Island will not be meeting that £130,000 income level?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
It is joint income, it is not an individual. You are looking at £65,000 each. That is purely the mathematical point of view. One then has to look at other issues, for example, if they are health workers they are certainly not going to reach those sort of levels, but they are vitally needed in other areas, as with children's officers and so on. But I think it is information that perhaps needs to go out into the public domain so that if you want to bring an accountant to the Island who is going to join one of the accountancy firms, this is a very useful figure. But this has to also be taken in conjunction with the contribution of the finance sector or the accounting sector, whichever it is that they come to, because there are the business profits side of it as well. This is purely the personal side of it.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
Just another point from meeting 4: "It was noted that the ageing of the population increases Government expenditure and creates a widening gap between income and expenditure under most scenarios. It was highlighted that no single change would address the funding issue in the long term. A change to settle factors would be required." Which factors might these include?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Sorry, can you read that again? I did not get the beginning.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
Yes: "It was noted that the ageing of the population increases Government expenditure" and a change of several factors would be required. What factors might you be considering?
Director, Policy and Strategy:
Shall I just explain how the money works?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: Yes, thank you.
Director, Policy and Strategy:
This is one of the documents on our website, so you can read this. This is an economic model that looks at the cost to the States based one the population. As the population ages, health costs in particular will increase quite dramatically. There is not much you can do about that, existing ageing, because that is people that already live here, but then you have got the income you get into the States coffers. The economic modelling that is done here that you can read relates to different levels of migration, so more migrants coming in gives you more income. It does not have much impact on the health costs because those are within existing people living here. You can increase the productivity of people, so you can have each person producing more income and you can swap the sectors around. That is the 3 things that were particularly modelled here. They are not the only 3 things you can change, but this is what this modelling looked at, so it looked at swapping from lower- paid sectors to higher-paid sectors. You made the point about the finance sector, so moving some people from lower-paid jobs into finance jobs would increase the income of the States, increase the productivity across the board from everybody, which would increase the income, having more people in Jersey will increase the income. I think at the end we do get a combination, so we are not suggesting this, but just to get the lines to match, yes, and this is plus 1,000 migration, 0.5 per cent productivity growth and a 10 per cent shift from low to ... this one is to other highs, so they put the workers into 3 categories. You have got finance sector people, other high sector people, which would be utilities, some forms of construction, and then low sector, which would be typically agriculture and hospitality. Then moving 10 per cent of the workforce from the low sector into other highs, so that would be into utilities and construction. That is just somebody playing with the graphs, so in order to match the line of the expenditure that is going to happen anyway, this is one scenario you could have. It is purely a modelling scenario. It is not suggesting that this a policy, but it is seeing the kind of things you would have to do to match that expenditure growth which you have already got inside the population as it stands today. There are other factors apart from that, but that is the 3 that we have looked at for the time being.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Can I just clarify that the household expenditure report from Stats is the document referred to in the minutes? It is just that I know that the expenditure report was commissioned by the Chief Minister last year and obviously came out this year, I think in May, but in your minutes it is written that Deputy Huelin asked whether we could statistically analyse the cost that was attached to those leaving the Island and what the gain was of those that moved to the Island.
[15:30]
The action point underneath states that the Stats Unit was to provide advice on the feasibility of the statistical modelling. Is that report that advice or are you expecting another document with advice?
Policy Principal, Immigration and Migration:
It is a different report, the one that you are referring to there, and the advice that has come back from the Statistics Jersey Unit is that it is a very difficult piece of work. It would require large investment and they are not able to do that piece of work. It is likely to be something that would have to go out to get somebody else, a consultant to come in and do that work.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Okay. Is that advice public or is that private?
Policy Principal, Immigration and Migration:
It is not private. I am not sure if we have covered it in the minutes. It may be in the next meeting.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Sure.
Director, Policy and Strategy:
We will make sure the next set of minutes refers to our action and notes the fact that it has not been possible to do it.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Thank you very much. That is really helpful, thank you. I would just like to ask you now, Chair - following on quite nicely from statistics - what data and models are you using to establish the effect of future migration in Jersey?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
That is an interesting point. I think the sources effectively are coming from Housing, Social Security, Health and obviously the Tax Office, so those are the areas in which information is coming from. The actual modelling we had not started on, but that obviously is a piece of work that needs to be done in due course.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
What work are you doing with Government departments to ensure that migration figures and the subsequent effect on the services we provide are kept up-to-date?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: Sorry, can you just point to that?
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
How will you ensure that the data that informs policy on migration is kept up-to-date?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Most of the data comes from Statistics Jersey. They are an arm's-length organisation, so they are independent and there is no interference from Government. That was agreed by the States Chamber, I believe about 2 years ago, 3 years ago. A lot of data also comes from Social Security because, through them, they have got the up-to-date figures of who is working and quarterly reports come from them on the number of people working.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Quarterly, you say?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: Quarterly. It is quarterly, is it not?
Director, Policy and Strategy:
The Population Office produce quarterly reports on the number of registrations. There is a 6-monthly labour market report from Stats. You are asking about being kept up-to-date. Yes, these are regular reports that are done all the time anyway and obviously they will feed into the work of the panel.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Thank you.
The Connétable of St. Peter :
Previously migration was set at 350 people per year. Now, even before I was a States Member, I came across States departments that were insistent that every decision had to be based on that 350 people figure, even though it was obvious from other data, including Social Security registrations and the housing market, that that figure had been vastly exceeded. There are 2 things: how are we going to monitor the migration in future, but also how are we going to stop States departments and officers from simply insisting that a figure in a document has to be used because it is there?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
The 325 figure was a guidance figure, it was not a fixed figure, 325 and no more. It was a guidance figure and it was used for essentially decision-making into the future. This figure was set in 2011, I think it was, and the Island Plan was based on the growth of 325, which is why we now have the housing shortage, because that was what it was based on. Yes, we do all know that it is greater. I think what is important is that there is more control for the Housing and Work Advisory Group on the number of licences that are issued. Currently there is a policy and if somebody applies for a licence and fulfils the policy criteria, a licence is granted. This is an area that we will need to look at very closely.
The Connétable of St. Peter :
So we can expect much better controls and updates on migration figures? Certainly as late as 2 years ago, officers were insisting that the 325 was set in stone and they were making decisions on that basis. It almost seems ludicrous that that is the case when that was not correct.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
I think we will need more control than what we have had, but just what those controls are, this is why we are doing the evidence-gathering.
The Connétable of St. Peter : Okay, thank you very much.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Just following on from your comment about the H.A.W.A.G. (Housing and Work Advisory Group), in your fourth meeting it was noted that when H.A.W.A.G. was granting a licence to a business to employ an individual, H.A.W.A.G. does not receive details of the numbers of family members that might accompany that individual. How does H.A.W.A.G. assess the true economic impact, whether positive or negative, of issuing a licence if they do not know how many people will be accompanying the individual?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Absolutely hit the nail on the head. Currently, due to E.U. (European Union) law, anybody can come and live there because we are part of the Common Travel Zone, anybody can come and live here. The only way therefore that we can control migration is by giving permission to the employers as to how many staff they can employ. A local business can set up, providing they get a business licence, they can go into business and they can employ as many local people as they want. However, if they want to employ an immigrant, whether that is a registered or a licensed individual, they have to apply to the Housing Department for ... Population Office for permission.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Can we expect to see the number of family members accompanying an individual to be monitored in the new migration policy?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
This is one of the great difficulties, because if you are giving the licence to a business to employ a person, that business has the choice who they employ and if they decide to employ a bachelor or whether they employ an individual with a family and how large that family is, or indeed how expensive that family might be with regards to education, health and so on, it is not controlled. We are looking to see how we might control it, but at the moment it is looking very difficult.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Yes, but my question was not should we be controlling, my question was can we expect the number of family members of an accompanying individual to be monitored in the new migration policy ...
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: Yes, yes.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
... so that we know how many people we have coming in and out?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Yes. I know in the calculations at comment 2325 it is 150 licence permissions and for each one licence permission an average of whatever it is, 1.75 or whatever the figure is, duly arrive and that is why 150 licences go to 325 heads of household coming into the Island.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Is it the case then that currently we are monitoring how many licences are coming in, but not necessarily the number of people coming in?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Okay, thank you.
Director, Policy and Strategy:
Adults have to have a Social Security card or to have a registered card from Housing and Work. We do not currently register children and therefore it is the children who really can be absent from the statistics in the minute, but we would expect all adults to have some kind of ... to be registered with the Government in some way within a few months. Even if they are not working, they are still required to register.
Senator K.L. Moore :
Do you recall that was an action point on the 1001 Days task force that children would be registered on ...
Director, Policy and Strategy:
To record the children, absolutely, I agree, yes. But that is not really the task. The Population Board has not yet got to the stage of making recommendations or a policy yet, so we are just gathering evidence. But the fact that we do not have evidence of the number of children directly is absolutely true, yes.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
We have consulted with Education and we have figures on how many children start school. If they are born this year, in 4 years' time they should be going to school. We have been able to monitor those differences and there are very small variations, 20 or 30, sometimes minus. More babies were born and you think why did they not go to school? It is plus and minus and it is a very small difference. The number being born and the number going to school do correlate and there is no evidence of families of 20 children coming in all the time, no.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: No, thank you.
Senator K.L. Moore :
Connétable , you talked about controls and there not being adequate controls on population currently. As the Chair of H.A.W.A.G. you have some levers at your disposal to manage that control somewhat. Could you describe perhaps how you have adapted those levers and used the controls in your powers since you took the chair?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Yes, those appeals that are coming forward to the H.A.W.A.G. Committee, we are, I think, being a little stricter than before. Certainly the number of permissions from appeals has gone down. We are also looking and trying to gather evidence as to how we can ensure that when an individual comes, that at the end of the licence period that the licence is taken back by H.A.W.A.G. because at the moment the licence is given to the business and some of them are open-ended, so every 5 years they can employ another person. That is an area of great concern.
Senator K.L. Moore :
The expectation would be on that individual who has come to the Island to work, that they return after a period of 5 years?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
At the end of 5 years they become entitled to work, so they no longer need the registered permission, which leaves the registered permission vacant, so they can employ somebody else. That is the area that we need to tighten up.
Senator K.L. Moore :
Which is why businesses are being asked to reapply for the licences that they hold currently.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: Yes, that will be rolled out more and more.
Senator K.L. Moore :
Thank you. The current Government obviously withdrew the 2017 migration policy that was lodged by the previous Government. What influence does that policy, as it was drafted, have on the Migration Policy Development Board?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
I think the area of most interest, greatest interest, is the area of permits, which is (d)(i) of the proposition: "Short to medium-term time-limited work permits for new registered workers to support businesses." That was not consulted on very widely with the business community, which was one of the main reasons why we withdrew the proposition. That is going to be very much the core of what will ... one of the many cores that we will be consulting industry with is work permits.
Senator K.L. Moore :
Do you believe that there are any components of the previous migration policy that could be retained, other than the work permits that you have just described?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
The proposition, most of it is to request the Chief Minister to bring forward amendments to the Control of Housing and Work (Jersey) Law: "To request the Chief Minister to instigate a review of how policies affecting new migrants and their children, including access to services" and (f) is: "To request the Chief Minister to report to the Assembly on the long-term modelling." We are doing most of what was requested and that is the idea of this policy board.
Senator K.L. Moore :
Why then did you withdraw the policy? What part of it was unacceptable to cause the Government to withdraw it?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
I think the biggest question area was the degree of consultation that had taken place or the lack of consultation that had taken place in (d)(i) over time-limited work permits.
Senator K.L. Moore :
However, you have just stated that that is an element of the previous policy that you would be minded to retain.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Yes, because we are going to be able to consult and whether that is time-limited as to one, 2, 3, 4 years and how industry see that playing out.
[15:45]
I think it is important that we explain how the permits would work to industry and particularly the hospitality industry, who I understand are very nervous of it. This will give a ...
Senator K.L. Moore :
But it is normal practice, however, to go out to consultation with a suite of different measures that say that there is an element of choice, whereas it appears that the board has made its mind up and therefore the consultation is really a process for the sake of it. It is not a genuine consultation asking for people's views, because the board has drawn a conclusion.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
No, we have not drawn a conclusion. It is one of the core issues that we will be consulting on.
Senator K.L. Moore :
In your fifth meeting, the Minister for the Environment attended and suggested that there were elements of the previous policy which were still viable, which should be included in the board's considerations. He then came to visit us and gave the same view. However, what impact has the Minister for the Environment had on the board in its considerations?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
He has only attended 2 of the 8 meetings, I believe, and while I value his input and he has passed comments to me after the meeting, having read the minutes, I think what is important is we have a diversity on the board and that all contributes together for ...
Senator K.L. Moore :
That Minister will not attend any longer.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Yes, he will. He is still attending when he can. As I said, he reads the minutes of the meetings and he would usually have a chat with me afterwards to catch up.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Thank you. I just want to ask a question about Business Licensing. You had a briefing by the senior manager of Business Licensing at your second meeting.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
It states in the minutes that: "Licence assessments are considered according with published policy with the overall test being the benefit that the application has to the Island as a whole." Is the policy that the senior manager of Business Licensing referred to the control of housing and work policy or is it another policy? It is the control of housing and work.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Okay. My follow up then is how is benefit to the Island measured?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
There are social benefits and there are economic benefits. The economic value is one reason why we had the estimated Government receipts because that now is very useful. The social value is the particular job and sometimes it can, quite literally, go down to one particular job. We do not have anybody with that expertise for that one position, otherwise it can be general areas. Education and health are 2, and childcare obviously, where additional resources are needed. We have not had the training and it is important that we get the right people into the right jobs.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Will the migration policy include a need for us to assess on a rolling basis gaps in industry that need filling?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Yes. I think as Jersey's economy evolves there will be areas in which greater emphasis will be given. Digital is an area that we look to encourage at the moment. Historically finance has been well-received, but again, it is achieving the right balance. But I think at the moment digital is an area that we wish to ensure the right encouragement is given.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
How do you envisage industry need to be assessed on a regular basis?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
H.A.W.A.G. meet with Jersey Financial Services Limited. We meet with them on a 6-monthly basis, so we are able to get updates from them. We have also meetings - they are on a more informal basis, they are not regular - with other groups. We have met the Dentistry Group recently with their concerns. If an industry or a section of industry have a concern, the door is always open.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Can we expect to see a formalised process of tracking industry need as a result of the migration policy? Will we be able to, in a couple of years' time ...
Policy Principal, Immigration and Migration: I might be able to help with that.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Yes, thank you.
Policy Principal, Immigration and Migration:
We have looked at some of the other areas and other jurisdictions. Guernsey is a prime example, which has very tight controls over population. One of the options the board is looking at and needs to consider is not just what those controls might be. For instance, is it Government or is it a separate body of industry representatives that recommend, similar to the Migration and Advisory Committee in the U.K. (United Kingdom), what policy should be around migration and certainly the shortage occupation list idea? We have to balance that against what the cost and the benefit of that is, so it becomes more bureaucratic, potentially slower for business and there is a cost to that, so that is a balance that we need to consider in with all the other things that we are looking ...
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Do you think, Chairman, that given the fact that our population has increased well over 1,000 plus since 2015, that kind of the cost of doing something like that is worth it if we can truly come to regulate our population growth?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: What do you mean by cost, sorry?
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
I was alluding to the costs that your ... excuse me, Mr. Stocks, Policy Principal, has just mentioned.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Yes. Again, we are back to we need to have a balance and what the contribution of that individual is going to be.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Sure, and then it takes me back to the question of economic measuring because, as we established earlier, Statistics Jersey have got back to us and said that it is not feasible to calculate the economic impact of an individual person coming in or leaving. You are saying we need to be able to do that. How are we going to be able to do that?
Policy Principal, Immigration and Migration:
I can answer. It is extremely difficult is the short answer, not just in Jersey, but worldwide there are lots of papers out and the U.K. have just recently issued a paper - I can forward it to you - about calculating the cost of a migrant and their advice and trying to calculate the cost of the migrant from the day they arrive to the day that they are either deceased or leave the country. Obviously you have got a lot to take in, as in come in as a single individual, to come into a relationship, have children who then go into education and take money out of the system, but then what do those children end up doing with the good education that they get? In the round it is very, very difficult to come up with those financial value of a migrant in any jurisdiction.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Social, I imagine, as well.
Policy Principal, Immigration and Migration:
You have got social and cultural elements to bring as well, which are difficult to put a financial value upon.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Is the board aspiring to be able to assess the impact to some degree?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Yes, we want to. The difficulty is being able to measure it.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Indeed.
Director, Policy and Strategy:
Can I make just a general point about what the board is ... all the questions you are asking are the questions that the board is currently asking itself, but they just do not have answers yet and that is the point of the board now, to do the research and to find out what are viable options for Jersey. Obviously work permits is a viable option. We understand about it, but it may or may not be one that comes through the whole process. Then skills, some form of skills, kind of a selection process is another one. These are all things that are done in other jurisdictions, they are all things we are looking at at the minute; the board is looking at at the minute. The next part of our process is to do some analysis and review of the different options to come up with a more nuanced list of options to go out to talk to visitors about in the autumn. Your questions are all really good questions, but they are perhaps a wee bit premature for the board to be able to make judgments on them just yet. In particular what we are doing is lots of research at the minute to kind of identify what could you do, how much would it cost to administer, what would the impact be and could you measure it. These are all absolutely the questions that we are currently asking.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Which is wonderful news and I am sure you can appreciate that our role in this process is to ensure that all the right questions are being asked, so it is reassuring to know that the questions that we think should be being asked are being asked. That is exactly what we are here to be scrutinising.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: Yes, they are.
Senator K.L. Moore :
It follows on really: to whom are they being asked? You have mentioned, Chair, that relevant departments have been asked for information. We discussed, I think, on Monday different countries that we might look to or you might look to in terms of finding policy practice that is agreeable to the board. I think you mentioned Australia on Monday, but what other places or areas of research are you looking to, as a board, to gain that information?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: I cannot remember the list offhand.
Director, Policy and Strategy: I think Neil has got a report.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: We have a list here that we have looked at.
Policy Principal, Immigration and Migration:
The board has had a paper about migration systems in other areas of the world. It is not the only countries we have looked at in relation to control. In that we looked at Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Bermuda, Barbados and Guernsey, being examples of ... Australia, New Zealand and Canada are generally viewed as being exemplars of how to run an immigration and a migration control. It is how relevant those are to Jersey because of the relatively unique position that Jersey finds itself in. Canada, New Zealand and Australia effectively control immigration because it is people coming that are nationals, other than their own country, whereas in Jersey we are within the Common Travel Area, so we have free movement between Ireland and the whole of the U.K., so that cannot be controlled by an immigration regime. At the moment we have E.E.A. (European Economic Area) nationals with free movement. That may or may not change with Brexit, which is why the impact of Brexit is really important upon our considerations. Yes, we are looking at lots of different areas. There are different examples and how you deal with the bulge in the demographic graph of older people. There are different areas around the world that are doing things well, it is just how relevant they are to us here in Jersey and whether they are transferrable here.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Thank you. That segues beautifully on to the Constable's question.
The Connétable of St. Peter :
Yes, just touched on. What consideration are you giving to the ageing demographic in your work beyond increasing the number of people of working age? What other policy initiatives have you looked at or considered?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
At the moment - again, as Sue just said - we are information-gathering and one of the areas we are gathering information on is things like increasing the G.V.A. (Gross Value Added). Rather than increasing numbers we are increasing G.V.A. and looking at higher-wage earners, rather than lower- wage earners. But there is a certain amount of interrelation now because those earning large sums of money, they are looking for a nice restaurant, coffee shop and so on, where we are back to requiring staff on low wages to manage and wait at tables and look after the restaurant. There is a strong link there; we cannot have one without the other.
Policy Principal, Immigration and Migration:
I might be able to add something to that. There are a number of different ways that you can look at the ageing or the dependency ratio. The dependency ratio is not just about an ageing demographic, it is about a younger demographic as well. For instance, the dependency ratio generally, universally, is people that work and they are judged as being between the ages of 16 and 64, whereas in most developed areas of the world children by the age of 15 do not work at 15 or 16 years old, they tend to get through to kind of 19, 20 now with education before they become self-sufficient. That in itself makes the dependency ratio worse, if you want to put it that way.
[16:00]
There are other areas that you can be looking at. Population is one. That does help to reduce your dependency ratio, increasing productivity reduces your dependency ratio. Looking at skills, can you retrain older people to have fully transferable skills to keep them at work longer? Can we make policies that would allow people to have that retraining, access to education and skills at an older age group? There are cultural issues around how you support, different areas of the world support their elderly in different ways, which impacts upon the dependency ratio and the cost to Government.
The Connétable of St. Peter :
Okay, thank you very much. Just moving to the scoping document, I just read a little section from there: "Over the period 2016 to 2026 at least an additional 280 full-time employees are expected to be needed in Health and Social Services alone. One of the reasons, an ageing population means we need to import more skilled workers into our medical and care sectors." The scoping document itself was already making assumptions that importing workers is the solution to the problem of filling these vacancies. What evidence was there to suggest that importing workers is the only way to fill vacancies in health and has consideration been given to other methods of filling these vacancies?
Policy Principal, Immigration and Migration:
The scoping document does not make any assumptions about what should be done. The scoping document is a document to lay out in very broad brush strokes to the members of the board and anybody else that is interested in it.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: To be fair, it does state ...
The Connétable of St. Peter :
But it does. You see, that is the problem with it. It should not, because as a scoping document, it should not do that, but that is exactly what it has done, unfortunately.
Director, Policy and Strategy:
I think the calculation is obviously based on the way in which people work today, so it is saying the health sector will grow by this amount of money, by this amount of people because of the ageing population, so that is something that we cannot get rid of, yes, the people living here today. There will be more older people in the future and therefore to help those people, you will need more care staff and more medical staff. You are absolutely right, that there will be undoubtedly some technological solutions, a lot of things you can do. But a lot of care is personal care; care is one of the areas where you do not tend to get ... it is quite hard to reduce the number of people involved in the system. You tend to get technology and people at the same time. You are right, it is based on a straightforward ratio, this amount of people for the summer staff and some people today, more people, therefore more staff. There will be probably some efficiencies to be made in there, but I think it is fair to say that almost whatever you do in terms of technological interventions you will need a greater proportion of your workforce in the health and care sector in the future.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Absolutely, but your scoping document says: "An ageing population means we need to import more skilled workers." That is what it states in your scope, so the Constable's question I think is valid.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Yes, okay. I think this is addressing the current known position and currently we do not have the right skillset among a lot of the care workers for the current ageing population. There is a need currently. Perhaps it is a little ambiguous when you read it one way, we read it another way, as giving advice. But there is that need and that is going to have to be addressed.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
You want to follow up with your evidence question, Constable.
The Connétable of St. Peter :
Yes. We have talked of technological solutions being part of it. Should there not be consideration of training local residents?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: Very much so.
The Connétable of St. Peter :
Because it does not even mention the possibility of training people to fill some of these vacancies. Clearly it is a scoping document and hopefully, although it states that we will be importing these employees, other considerations will be given, yes.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
I think this is the immediate problem and that is why the challenge is it needs to be resolved going forward.
The Connétable of St. Peter : Okay, thank you.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
But there is a shortage of healthcare staff in the Island. How should Jersey structure its migration policy to encourage workers in sectors where a large number of workers are essential, such as in healthcare and tourism, to enter the Island while still managing the overall level of inward migration?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Yes, with regards to health we are now doing nursing courses on the Island. You can qualify as a nurse here on the Island now. We are consulting with Highlands College and I believe a ... I do not want to quote it, but there is a social worker course, is there not?
Director, Policy and Strategy:
There is a social worker course starting in September this year. It has taken about 2 years to organise, so it starts this year.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Yes. We are taking steps in order to train our own residents locally.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
How many nurses are there on the programme currently?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Off the top of my head, so please do not quote it, I believe it is 20 nurses were entered last year.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
Do they receive a subsidy at all to encourage them to ...
Director, Policy and Strategy:
They are doing degree-level courses at Highlands and therefore they get access to higher education funding, the same way that any university student would. Within the income support system there are special rules for the nursing students and that will be extended to social worker students as well, so if they are a low-income family they get full income support while they are sitting their degree, which is a small number, a seriously small number of people, but they are fully protected in that way, yes.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
Are you examining how departmental priorities change regarding the accessibility of public services if the Island's population continues to increase in age?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
They will have the same access to public services as they have now. I do not think that that is going to change.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
Will there will be long delays in hospital?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
I cannot comment there because that is not my department. But the whole idea is to shorten them and it is something the Minister for Health and Social Services is tackling, along with the new hospital. I sincerely hope that waiting times and everything will come down in due course.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
How will an older population relying more on workers coming into the Island affect the public sector?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
The majority of health workers are employed by Health. I think we may see a growth area within the private sector of nursing homes, but at the moment the majority of the strain is taken by Health.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Thank you, Deputy . We are going to move on now to ... you have answered this question about migration systems in other areas, fantastic. Has anybody else got any questions?
The Connétable of St. Peter : Yes, I think it is 11 ...
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Senator.
Senator K.L. Moore :
Just a few more about how the board works. We have got quite a flavour about the workings of the board, but obviously you have members of Scrutiny, which is why they are not in attendance today, as board members and also members of different bodies, such as the Chamber of Commerce and the I.o.D. (Institute of Directors) are represented on your board. But what we really wanted to know is, first, how you are collating, reviewing and analysing the information that you are receiving? Secondly is whether that work is divided among members of the board, particularly whether there are certain people concentrating on particular areas and topics.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
No, we are working as one board at the moment. We have not, as yet, identified the areas to hand to specific individuals. We are having a meeting jointly between our board, the Housing Board and which was the third board? Ourselves and the Housing Board and the Planning ...
Policy Principal, Immigration and Migration:
Island Plan. Yes, we met with the Island Plan and the Housing Development Board. At our last meeting they had an input.
The last meeting, that is right, so that is encompassing those areas of work. No, we work as one board and there are no, as it were, sub-committees within that board.
Senator K.L. Moore :
Thank you. What Brexit scenario is the board using as a model for its new policy, given that different scenarios will affect what Jersey can and cannot do regarding immigration laws?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
We have not yet developed 2 scenarios, but the 2 scenarios are a hard Brexit or a soft Brexit. The soft one we have little information, other than what we are given by External Relations, and that tends to be rather vague at the moment. I do not think the U.K. itself knows, other than what the E.U. (European Union) want, rather than what the U.K. want. A hard Brexit is a situation which is a definite possibility, yes.
Policy Principal, Immigration and Migration:
I can assist there a little bit. The U.K. published a White Paper - I do not know the exact date, but the beginning of the year, end of last year - about its proposals to change its immigration scheme after Brexit. It should have happened in March. We are, as the board and me as an Executive Support Officer, in regular liaison with Jersey Customs and Immigration Service. I was chatting to them yesterday about their update that they have had, which I cannot talk to you about at the moment, I am afraid, about what the U.K. are intending to do come whenever Brexit may or may not happen and what their intentions are and how they are looking to do things in the U.K. They are intending to talk to the Minister for Home Affairs about what their plan will be moving forward around those immigration controls that may or may not be in place. Fundamentally it will not change the way that we deal with what we call third country nationals, so they are people that are not British, Irish or E.E.A. citizens. E.E.A. citizens may come under it. That is certainly the intention of the U.K. immigration, that E.E.A. nationals will all require immigration permission to be in the U.K. I cannot talk for the Minister for Home Affairs, but I think it will be likely that we would follow that direction. That is where in the controls we need to consider it. We need migration controls, not just immigration controls. Immigration may control more people who are here in Jersey but there will still be migration controls required for those within the common travel area if indeed E.E.A. nationals do come under immigration control.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Thank you. Just finally, I would like to thank the board for sharing their most recent minutes with us. I appreciate they are not up on the website yet, so I gather they are not public yet.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: No, we have not signed them, so they are not public yet.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
I will not talk to the specifics at all, but I was wondering if we might also receive the discussion paper that is referenced in those meetings.
Policy Principal, Immigration and Migration:
Yes. They have not prepared yet, but yes, as soon as they are ready they will come to you and be published.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Thank you. Any more questions, Deputy , Constable ...
The Connétable of St. Peter :
There has been reference made to introducing English language tests and restricting migrants over a certain age. What work is the board doing on these particular points?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
It references more to what the U.K. may be doing with permits.
The Connétable of St. Peter :
This would be following a U.K. scheme.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: Essentially.
Policy Principal, Immigration and Migration:
If I may, third country nationals already require an English language test in order to receive a work permit in the U.K., so that is a policy that is already in place in the U.K. and for work permits here in Jersey for third country nationals.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Is the board considering offering support to those who wish to come and learn the English language as part of a migration strategy to attract certain workers from certain areas?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Interesting question. I do not know at the moment and it is not something that has been brought up.
Director, Policy and Strategy:
Again, that is the point of the exercise, to kind of work out what the options would be. At the end of the day you have probably got your migrants split into low-skilled people who perhaps do not need to speak English to do the job because it is some kind of manual job. Then you have got high-skilled people who always inevitably will be speaking English anyway because their skills and their job require them to speak English to people in Jersey.
[16:15]
So we are talking about a migration control; migration controls are more responsive. More responsive means think harder about when and how you want to bring lower-skilled people in, think harder about how and when you want to bring high-skilled people in and then put the appropriate controls around those types of people. They may be different controls. A language test may be relevant to one area and maybe not in another area. These are all things to be thought through and worked on.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Yes, I know, it is just I asked the question mostly because the idea of a language test in order to gain entry is quite evocative of a certain motion. For those people who are here whose English perhaps is not completely fluent already, they might feel somehow they are less valued by a policy that means any new entrants cannot come in if they are of the language proficiency that these people are. In addition to be looking at testing, we should also perhaps be looking into ways in which we can support. That was my question.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Yes. I think if one is looking at manual workers who are coming into say agriculture, where they are coming on probably an 8, 9, 10-month permit, there is little point in a language test because they are working on a farm within a community on the farm. At the present moment there is not that need anyway.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Sure. But in your documents the board rightfully considers: "ways in which we can support migrants who come and help them integrate into our society."
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board: Yes.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
My proposition to the board is given that you are considering English language tests, have you also and would you also consider support in that area?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
I think it is logical. But as Sue has just said, it depends entirely on whether it is a manual worker or whether it is somebody higher up the pay scale.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Sure, but in terms of integrating into society, which is one of your aims in your documents, that should not be relevant, whether someone is a minor worker or not.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Yes, but then it also relates as to how long they are likely to be here.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Absolutely, yes, sure.
Policy Principal, Immigration and Migration:
Part of that discussion around language is about integration. Whether that is right or not is part of the consideration. But the U.K.'s thinking on having an English language requirement is that it does allow you to assimilate into society because you can access services, you can understand what is available to you, you can communicate with other members of the community and you do not become isolated. Again, whether that is applicable and right for Jersey is up for discussion, but that is an option. The other thing is you are right that it is a very emotive subject, migration, immigration, and that is why it is so important that we research these elements as much as we can before we come forward with any proposals, other serious proposals. Because people do get worried about it, rightly so. Migration and immigration affects individuals and people become worried about ... we do not want them to be unnecessarily worried about something that we are not going to do.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
It is very difficult, is it not? How will you assess what needs to be done to help people integrate? Because it is going to be hard for you to gain evidence from those who perhaps have not been enabled to integrate successfully or easily to date due to barriers, such as cultural or language barriers. How will you seek to engage or even measure whether or not we have a problem of integration?
This is very much a social issue and it is up to individuals who come here as to what part they want to play in Island life and in the community.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
But we have talked about assessing someone on their social benefit as part of migration policy, so a natural part of that is to assess how well they integrate into society because inevitably integration also means, to be quite cold about it, economic engagement and activity, social engagement activity that might not otherwise happen, so that, I would say, is an integral part of your policy.
Policy Principal, Immigration and Migration:
Again, in other areas of the world, such as Canada, for instance, there are a number of potential policies that can be utilised to help to ensure that migrants engage in that process. In Canada you are forced to engage in that process. The employer has a responsibility to engage you into the local society and that is part of having their ... I do not know what the correct terminology for that in Canada is, but effectively your licence, your work permit, is dependent upon you sponsoring that individual. In other areas you have a bond you have to pay upfront and you get your bond back when you demonstrate that your English is to a certain language. Again, whether any of these things are relevant to Jersey are points that we need to discuss.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Thank you. Did you have a follow-up, sorry?
The Connétable of St. Peter : No, that is fine.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
Chair, there were some criticisms of the governance surrounding the Hospital Policy Development Board. As Chair, what are you doing to ensure that the board operates within a robust and transparent governance framework?
Policy Principal, Immigration and Migration: I can ...
Director, Policy and Strategy:
We could talk about the governance of the board.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Yes, the governance of the board, but that is about as far as we can go.
Director, Policy and Strategy:
At the end of the day, the board is as transparent as it is almost possible to get. We have lay members and Back-Benchers on the board itself. The minutes are published immediately after the following meeting when they have been signed off. All the supporting paperwork and massive parts of Neil's report within has also been published. At the minute that is the purpose of the board, to do that research. After the summer different types of documents will start to get published and a different type of engagement will take place. I think that is all there is to say. It is a massive topic, but it is quite straightforward in the sense that we are looking at all the things that we can find out about both internally in Jersey and externally to research the other countries. We are telling people what we have got as the board finds things out; it is putting that on its website. I think the development of the websites in the policy development boards is a useful part of the governance structure as a whole, whereby not just this board but the other boards as well are publishing documents as they come up. I think there is a certain amount of maturity in the process. Obviously the Hospital Board was a slightly different set-up, a slightly different reason. That was obviously the first one. You have now the benefit of it as the best structure around with all the boards, a slightly bigger range of officers to support them and just a variety. We have just thought be more open about the whole process.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
But, Chairman, upon publication and the final report issued by the Policy Development Board, it was criticised by the Minister for Health and Social Services, who was himself a member of the board. He said that the findings were not based on evidence. Do you envisage any such problems with this board?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
Everybody has their opinions. It was a decision that was come to by the board itself. Again, we are following a more experienced track this time. We will be publishing the evidence and the decisions that we come to to the Chief Minister along the same lines. With the Hospital Policy Board, yes, there was a disagreement in the findings, but it is a matter of how you view the facts. I do not want to comment too strongly on the Hospital Policy Board, but not one single report recommended building a hospital on its current site, so where was the evidence supporting that particular position?
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
What did you learn from the Hospital Board's work that you will be putting into practice with this board? What lessons have you learnt?
I am a little older and I am a little wiser, but beyond that it is difficult to sort of ... I cannot put my finger on any one thing. We are being as diligent as we can, crossing t's and dotting i's and ensuring that we are as open and transparent. You have heard everything goes on the website as quickly as possible. I do not think there can be any criticism. I am sure there will be those who criticise; there always are.
Policy Principal, Immigration and Migration:
One of the points we have discussed is that the policy board you were referring to then was reviewing a process that had already taken place, whereas we are looking forward to researching diligently in the hope that we will come up with a migration policy that is going to suit Jersey moving forwards.
Deputy J.H. Perchard: Thank you. Senator.
Senator K.L. Moore :
Do you have a budget for this Policy Development Board?
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
I have not applied for a budget. I think that we have the resources within the various departments. It is mostly evidence-gathering, consultation and then publication of the document. I do not see the need. There are not - in the same way as there is with Housing or anywhere else - population experts who could put it together on our behalf or advise us, as it were, on the work we are doing. There are many, many, many publications on the website. As Neil said at the beginning, we are Jersey and the needs of Jersey are best understood by those who live and work here.
Senator K.L. Moore :
I think you said earlier that a bigger range of officers is needed to support policy development boards, given the lessons learnt by the first board that you chaired, Chairman. Therefore one can assume that either there is a greater cost associated with that or of detracting of efforts and attention from other pieces of policy while people focus on this particular line of work.
Director, Policy and Strategy:
Obviously there is a budget and the budget supports one full-time officer. When the Government Plan is published I hope that you will see that that funding request will be successful and carry forward through to next year, so that is each of the years of the Government Plan. Yes, there is a dedicated policy officer. You are right, there is an extra resource, an extra policy officer. It is not Neil trying to do it off the side of a desk; it is a full-time person who is dedicated to this. Obviously
when we bid for one full-time officer it does not have to be one person all the time, it could be a mixture of people. It is one whole extra resource, which in terms of policy terms, that is a policy officer, a good resource.
Senator K.L. Moore :
Particularly when Scrutiny had turned down employing additional people. Our work is extremely similar to the work of a policy development board, but that is just a political point for me to make. But it is very difficult not to look at the 2 from the same lens, particularly given the information that you have all helpfully shared with us this afternoon. Thank you.
Chairman, Migration Policy Development Board:
On the point, the Greffe does make an application for a budget and, as a non-ministerial request, it is not scrutinised, it is accepted in its entirety by the Government Plan.
Senator K.L. Moore :
I am afraid that is not the case, Connétable . There are hoops to jump through for us as well. Thank you.
Deputy J.H. Perchard:
Thank you so much for your time and I formally close the meeting.
[16:28]