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Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Post-16 Education
Witness: De La Salle College
Friday, 15th March 2019
Panel:
Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier (Chairman) Deputy R.E. Huelin of St. Peter
Deputy T. Pointon of St. John
Witness:
Mr. J. Turner, Headteacher, De La Salle College
[13:58]
Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier (Chairman):
Thank you for your time and welcome to this public hearing to go with the post-16 review to get information really to expand upon any submissions that were made and give you an opportunity to give information. There is a sheet in front of you which tells you about the public hearings themselves. There is nobody else here so we do not have to talk about switching phones off. So that is okay. We would like to start by just asking for a brief overview of the post-16 provision that is offered by De La Salle College.
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
Certainly. I have made one or 2 points, if that is all right. We are a very small 6th form provider. We have about 80 to 100 students. Generally, we cater for students that are coming through our own college. That does not mean we will not take students from other colleges but it is usually one or 2, no more than that, who will generally come from an 11 to 16 school. We do not have any entrance examination at all.
[14:00]
So we are an all-through school, if you like, in terms of ability as well as in terms of age. So we go from 3 to 18. To give you an example, C.A.T. (cognitive ability test) scores for the current cohort going through ranges from 131 down to 79. So it is a very broad spectrum of ability, probably greater than any other college on the Island, with the exception possibly of Beaulieu. Obviously with the secondary set up of 14-plus, the 11 to 16s would lose that range. We deliver about 17 subjects, and those 17 subjects we would deliver in-house. Where we are not able to deliver subjects because either we do not have the expertise or it is not economically viable to do so, we are part of the consortium of schools of Vic, J.C.G. (Jersey College for Girls) and Beaulieu and we essentially purchase a place on one of their courses. We also would do that if we found that what the students want to do created a clash in their timetable. So we can generally work around a potential clash. Where that has an issue is, if you like, you are not comparing like with like. So although we join in with Victoria College and J.C.G., they are selective and so they would deliver their courses targeted to a particular range of student ability. Our students do not have that very narrow range of ability so we may have a student who has a lower than average ability range who would like to do a course, for example, economics, which would be offered by one of the selective schools in the consortium; they would offer him the place but for him to access that style of teaching would be very difficult. So although it works, it is not a perfect fit.
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
What do you mean "style of teaching"?
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
For example, if you know you have got an ability range of students who are B grade G.C.S.E. (General Certification of Secondary Education) and above you can proceed at a much faster pace. You do not need to repeat and check to make sure that they have grasped a particular concept. If you are a lad who perhaps is a C grade or maybe did not even pass a G.C.S.E. you would hope that the teacher would slow down and go through it again with you, repeat it perhaps 2 or 3 times. But if you have got a class of 12 students who are all of a particular ability and one who is not ...
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
Cannot get a principal appointment.
Headteacher, De La Salle College: Yes.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Can I just ask a couple of practical things? Are your times of the day the same as the other schools to enable that movement?
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
No, they are not quite the same. What we do is we come together at 3 points in the day. So if you can imagine a timetable, you could have one that duplicates exactly. What we do is, to give ourselves a degree of flexibility, so, if you like, the tail is not wagging the dog, we do not need to match a 5-period day for our students who are aged 11 to 16. So what we do is at break time we are back in sync, at lunchtime we are back in sync, and obviously at the end of the day we are back in sync. So for the students it means that if there is a slight difference in time it effectively occurs when they are on their break time, not in their lesson time, if that makes sense.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Yes, it does. You use the word "consortium" at school. Is that a formal arrangement?
Headteacher, De La Salle College: Yes.
Deputy R.J. Ward : It is?
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
So it is a S.L.A. (service level agreement) that we have between us. Effectively what that does, it allows us to purchase courses from one another either to make them economically viable or, for us, it is principally because we have got a student who is unable to get these particular subjects that they want within our option blocks because we are a small provider.
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
What balance is the sharing; do you end up paying more or receiving?
Headteacher, De La Salle College: We definitely end up paying more.
Deputy R.E. Huelin: You pay more?
Yes.
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
Who are the net recipients?
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
It would be Beaulieu, J.C.G., Victoria College. Because we are small, we do not have the range of subjects and where we have different subjects they tend to be, because we deliver vocational qualifications as well as academic qualifications, so somewhere like Victoria College, for example, who would have a selective intake, they are unlikely to want to access vocational courses which we would uniquely offer. There is nothing stopping students from any other schools accessing them but the practical reality is that we end up paying more out than we receive.
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
You said you were offering 17 subjects, that is A level?
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
No, that is A level and B.T.E.C. (Business and Technology Education Council). So we offer academic and vocational subjects because we have a range of ability.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
That is interesting when you mention that you use the vocational courses such as B.T.E.C.; they would be at level 3, would they?
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
Yes, we only offer level 3. Because of our size we would like to offer essentially what you might refer to as a foundation level because we obviously have some students who are unable to access at level 3 because they have not made it to level 2 at G.C.S.E. grade C and above, in old money. But because we are small it just would not be economically viable for us to do that. However, we do compensate for not having that level 2 foundation in different ways, which I will go through, if we get to those points.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Do you have any contact with Highlands with regards those vocational courses at all?
We do not have contact in the sense of we share. What we do of course have contact in terms of we know we have got boys who want to access technical qualifications and vocational qualifications that we do not offer. So, for example, we have got boys who might want to access the uniform services technical qualification that Highlands are offering. For us it would not be viable but what we will do is, we speak to the boys, interview them: "What do you want to do?" We would say: "Look, this is something that might interest you." Equally, we know there are some boys who are not interested in the courses we run, would not be able to access a level 3 course and so for them we would say: "Look, we need you to be aware of this." There is a particular course that Highlands run, but the name temporarily escapes me, but it is a level 2 transition course. For those boys we would say: "This is something that would help you." But we do not have a minimum G.C.S.E., so I think there is this common misconception that you have to get a certain number of G.C.S.E.s to study at De La Salle and they have to be at a certain level. That simply is not the case. For example, this year 10 per cent of our intake do not meet the 5 G.C.S.E. standard at threshold 4 to 9. It is often seen as a misconception that is out there but that is not the sort of school we are because at the age of 11 we know we have got a very broad ability range, we do not then narrow at 16. So we have that range of subjects so that we are able to offer courses for students who otherwise would not be able to access those minimum entry requirements.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Just one more then and then I promise I will let other people have a go. We went and had a look at some vocational qualifications in the U.K. (United Kingdom) and you are probably aware of T-levels being ...
Headteacher, De La Salle College: Yes, technical levels.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I will not ask what is your opinion on them because that is a little unfair because there are lots of opinions but do you think they will have a place perhaps? I know they are only being used in the U.K. at the moment but there is perhaps a possibility for one or 2, depending on the T-level itself.
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
It is something, from our perspective, we would not run a T-level. As I said, we are a small 6th form. The numbers of students who might be interested in a T-level subject simply would not be viable for us to run it. Nor would we have the expertise or the level of investment that would be needed to facilitate a T-level course. I think they are very interesting. I think it would take somebody with a greater degree of intelligence and knowledge of this matter than myself to give you a sense of T-
level; I would not be qualified to do that. But I think there are lots of very interesting post-16 opportunities, which I think have been developed because one of the things that for me is very different between Jersey and the U.K. is that the U.K. has not only said 16-plus is important, it said it is a requirement that you study until you are 18. I think that is a very profound statement for politicians to make because it then creates the expectation that we have got students who are not going to access vocational and academic courses. We cannot simply say "not our problem" because from a political directive you said: "All students are entitled to education until they are 18" and therefore what has academia done, it has gone and created, initiated courses like T-levels because it has now been directed by the political process in the U.K. that you must cater. I think it is a very powerful statement that the U.K. made about the value of 16-plus education.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
It is a very interesting point.
The Deputy of St. John :
Can we just go through the exchanges that you have?
Headteacher, De La Salle College: Certainly.
The Deputy of St. John :
Is there any traffic between yourselves and Hautlieu?
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
No. The main reason for that is if, for example, you are a parent who is paying fees to come to De La Salle and we say: "Well, we can get you on to this course at Hautlieu", you might be a little bit miffed, if you like, that you are paying fees and Hautlieu is charging us for the space because, as I am sure you are aware, it does not matter which institution you go to, you are given a set amount per student that attends, so although Hautlieu is funded fully by the States they operate on the same model as everyone else does. It is just that the States are the fee payer, if you like. So Hautlieu would quite rightly say to us: "Well, you need to pay for access to that course" because that is how it works. but I think it would very difficult for parents to appreciate that while we are paying Hautlieu there are several other students who are going on the same course and they are not paying. That is one reason. The second reason is that Hautlieu is set up in the same way as Victoria College and J.C.G. So at 14-plus it is highly selective. That process means that at 16-plus they remain selective. They have a minimum entrance, I believe it is 5 G.C.S.E.s grade 4 and above, including English. So their teaching style, and so forth, is directed to an academic group of students. We are simply not set up in that way. For us - this is my tin-pot education theory, for what it is worth - I think
it is hard to say to any student: "You are academic. You are vocational." Nearly half of our students take a combination of academic and vocational courses. So they might do, for example, applied science B.T.E.C. because they are unable to be successful in terms of getting a science A-level but they want to go into a science-based career and at the same time they might say: "Well, I want to take sociology at A-level because the science-based career I want to go into is working with the police service and I want to understand how society works. I would like my sociology A-level but equally I know I need a science background. I am unlikely to be able to gain a sufficient grade at something like physics or chemistry but I need a science qualification." There for me is a perfect example of somebody who is not purely academic and not purely vocational, but we are able to give them both. That is because we recognise we take all abilities. I think for Hautlieu, that would be totally unsuitable for them because they do not. They clearly simply take academic students. So again their set up, their teaching, would not necessarily be appropriate for our students. Having said that, obviously we have students who leave at 16 and go to Hautlieu.
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
I am really interested in this. You have your S.L.A., the 4 of you. We are a small island and one of the things I would like to see is every child has every possible opportunity that this Island can give it. That might not necessarily be within your own school so that sharing, I think, is wonderful. However, have there been any cases where Hautlieu have been offering things that could be beneficial, even to one or 2 of your students, that could make a difference to that particular dispute. If you are saying that the spread of the vote is, they could be phenomenally artistic and Hautlieu might be doing something artistic to balance with something science that you are doing to enable them to be fulfilled?
Headteacher, De La Salle College: Yes, you could do that but, for example ...
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
I know what you said beforehand very carefully, do not worry, I think it is more of an academic conversation.
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
If we are looking at that aspect of it, if a student felt well a course, for example, the International Baccalaureate that is run at Hautlieu, was more suitable for them then they would move to Hautlieu. I think that would be perfectly fair and reasonable.
[14:15]
The International Baccalaureate is extortionately expensive to run and that is why it tends to only be with the proper independent schools in the U.K. that use it but it is a course that gives breadth across a range of subjects, so it has lots of benefits. We simply could not afford to run it and so we accept there are things that we can do and things that we cannot. There is not a sense of: "If you leave us you have betrayed us" or anything like that. Not at all. We know what we can do and we do it well. But equally people can choose to go to another ...
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
I was thinking just supplementing one particular subject. You can deliver 75, 80 per cent for that particular child's aspirations but it needs 10, 20 per cent supplement from Hautlieu. Do you have that experience and could you make that work for that individual to ensure that that kid is getting everything this Island can offer?
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
At the moment no, because we do not have an S.L.A. with Hautlieu. But what we could do is say: "Well if you want to do art, for example, at Hautlieu that is grand. If we look in the consortium you could do the same course within the consortium."
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
There is nothing unique about Hautlieu that you would like to use that is not done within the consortium?
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
Not that I am aware of but I am not an expert on what Hautlieu provides and what it does not but from what I am aware of that is a ...
The Deputy of St. John :
For post-16 are you interacting with Beaulieu.
Headteacher, De La Salle College: Yes, as part of our consortium.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Can I ask, just to move on a little, what are the main challenges that you see both in your institution post-16 and, just to broaden that out, your opinion on the Island-wide challenges post-16 would be welcome? What do you see as those?
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
I am certainly comfortable in terms of my own. What I see is what we offer and so forth, I feel a bit uncomfortable talking about others and so forth. I think that is the old glass and stones and so forth comes to mind with that one. I think there are things that inevitably post-16 has done very well. I think for me there are some things that I find difficult to perhaps accept. I think when so many of our students benefit from being able to do vocational and academic it seems to me a shame that that benefit cannot be more widely shared. I am sure there are very good reasons why that is not possible but that would be something that I would observe. I would say that most 6th forms in the U.K. would provide a range of subjects. They would not be quite as selective perhaps in terms of you go there for that, you go there for that. You would see a degree of balance. But I might be wrong and that might not be the case. So that would be one observation. I think a recognition that students, whatever age they are, have particular needs. Just as an example, we have this year - I will just look at my notes if I may - 20 per cent of our year 12 students, 35 per cent of our year 13 students, receive some form of support additional to what we generally provide. That could be access arrangements, support from a key worker and so forth. As part of our grant from the States for the whole of the secondary school, we receive a notional sum of £35,000 to cover 500 students. Now, I appreciate that that is part of a very complex mathematical formula and equation, and I am not a mathematician; I do not pretend to understand it. But I think for me it is about saying you have in front of you a group of students. It benefits the Island if those students are able to access courses which challenge them, that benefit them, and while I accept that I am sure other providers have far greater challenges that I would have, I still do have challenges and I think it would be nice to able to say that regardless of where you attend school there is support for you, which is based on your need in order to access.
The Deputy of St. John :
The £30,000-odd, is this a reference to Jersey Premium or ...
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
No, we do not qualify for Jersey Pupil Premium. It is only available to children who access schools that are owned or funded by the States of Jersey.
The Deputy of St. John :
So that is a recognition that you have to be if you need additional support?
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
No, that is a notional sum. The way that Jersey divides up its amount of money per student, it is generally called an A.W.P.U. (average weighted pupil unit). As part of that you also get a sum which is a notional sum. We get a notional sum, which equates to just over £35,000 - £35,100 - for the secondary school. Another example of a notional; we get a notional 12 hours a year for the whole of the college of education psychology support. To me, these notional sums are, while understandable and I can appreciate you have to have some methodology, it always strikes me as a little bit difficult because it would seem to suggest to somebody who perhaps was looking from the outside that at De La Salle we do not have children that need support to access education. We do not have children, for example, who are in income support because we do not receive the Jersey Pupil Premium. That simply is not the case. But I can understand that the States are saying: "Well, our priority is the students in our own schools and so that money is only going to go to them." I understand, it is just you were saying an observation and that is my observation.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
That is exactly what we want to hear.
Deputy R.E. Huelin: Do you offer bursaries?
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
We do. The difficulty for us in terms of offering bursaries is that while we offer bursaries to students who encounter hardship, because our funding model is for students whose parents pay fees. I, for example, know of a student who is currently in my school who is contemplating staying with us in the 6th form and one of the things that he said to us is: "I cannot ask my parents to work until 11.00 p.m. every night for another 2 years." While I could offer a bursary, to do that the only way I can provide a bursary is I have to take the funding from there in order to provide it to somebody else. I think in Jersey somebody who perhaps has a large rent on their property, we know that rent goes up even in a rent-controlled environment, I think it is 90 per cent.
Deputy R.E. Huelin: We had that on Tuesday.
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
When you provide bursaries, and we provide bursaries, it is very difficult to justify to a parent who you know is working incredibly hard because they want their son to come to De La Salle, for whatever that reason that might be, to then say: "Well, we are going to take some of that money and put it into a pot" so it is a difficult one. We do struggle with it and we try to raise funds through our Lasallian foundation so that it is clearly not taking parents' money in order to support other parents. Now the distinction there, is where we see hardship, and I think this is certainly one of the areas that things like the Pupil Premium do not seem to take account of. So you might have a parent who, upon joining the school, you have got a dual parent income and, for whatever reason, either unfortunately through death or illness or sheer misfortune one of those parents loses their job, unable to work. They may well then go on income support but because they are at De La Salle we therefore, cannot access Jersey Pupil Premium. That is where we can reassure those parents because, from our perspective, we would offer a hardship bursary so that the child does not suffer. They do not have to leave because of something that has unfortunately happened.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
So your funding is entirely parent fees?
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
We have parent fees and then through our S.L.A. we have a grant from the States of Jersey. That grant from the States of Jersey is based upon an A.W.P.U., which is, as we said, a mathematical notional sum of what it would cost you to educate a child. We receive, depending on whether it is primary or secondary, either 22 per cent of what it would cost to educate the notional child in the notional school or 47 per cent. That is why we are able to maintain our fees. It is less than they would otherwise have been.
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
Approximately how much does that average out?
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
It doe not quite work as an average out, I am afraid, so if you are a child who is 16 you would receive an A.W.P.U. of about £7,000. If you are a child who is 11, your A.W.P.U. would be approximately £4,000. So it is different for different students and that partly is an acceptance that educating post- 16 is generally more expensive. I have not got those precise figures in front of me. I am just using an approximation.
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
It is a very good indication. You cannot run a school on £6,000 a year.
Headteacher, De La Salle College: No.
The Deputy of St. John :
I have a quick question here about barriers. You earlier said there are significant barriers to the provision of post-16 education in terms of finance, especially for people on lower incomes in relation to De La Salle. But what is your view of the barriers that exist with the other schools and generally in the Island for the uptake of post-16 education?
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
I think it is difficult for me to comment because I have never taught in any other school on the Island. It is hard for me to say what the challenges would be for a different provider. I think for me one of the things that I said was important was a statement from a group such as your good selves to say that it is not just an expectation or a hope but that all students will be entitled to education to the age of 18. It is a powerful statement which then removes the sense of "you can drop out at 16". I think for me if you we want to make a statement about the value of post-16 education then what greater statement can that be? It is similar, I think, to the time when they raised the school leaving age in the 1970s from 15 to 16. They said: "This is important. This is what we are doing." I think it makes a powerful statement and now I do not think there are any students who will be sitting there thinking: "Well, I am 15 years of age now I want to go out to work." They will be thinking: "Well, when I am 16 what are my options?"
The Deputy of St. John :
Being completely cynical, I am wondering whether or not the U.K. Government's decision to do that might have been more to do with a one-off reduction in unemployment figures.
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
Possibly, but then the U.K. has got record levels of employment at the moment and has got its lowest levels of unemployment since the 1970s. I could not possibly comment on the cynicism or otherwise of politicians but I generally would believe that they would have a very clear indication that they are making a philosophical statement on the value of education. Yes, they understand that has funding consequences but they are making a statement. I tend to find that people would go into politics because they are idealists, because they want to make a change. I am sure there are cynical politicians but I tend to believe that they are idealists.
The Deputy of St. John :
There are not any cynical politicians.
Headteacher, De La Salle College: I am very glad to hear that.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I think it was also to do with skills shortages and recognition of skill shortages.
The Deputy of St. John :
I am going to come to that. The positive signs, to get away from cynicism, would of course mean that you are training a larger number of people to go and meet the needs of society in terms of skills.
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
Yes. You can look at it, I think, from that perspective of: "We are doing this because we are going to get something from it." I think you can also look at it from the point of view of saying: "It is important that you, as an individual, are able to access education as a right and that you are able, as a right, to access 16-plus education not because materially we are going to benefit or somewhere down the line we are going to get something, but because we believe this is important.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
That is a very interesting point and we will certainly take that ...
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
I do not make many of them, so do I stop there having made an interesting point?
Deputy R.J. Ward :
We think that frequently. Can I ask how you think that De La Salle is viewed by the Island? It is always interesting to ask this of headteachers how they feel their institution is viewed. Just a quick answer, just as a ...
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
I do not know, I hope that people appreciate that for 100 years we have been here. We have been providing education. We continue to do so and I hope people think: "This is not a group of people who have a self-interest in the Island. This is a group of people, of religious people, who have made a statement about the value of education.
[14:30]
I hope that people would view us as a key part of the education system that makes Jersey unique. Whether that is how they view it or not I do not know.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
In terms of the wider participation as a member of society of your students, what do you do to address that sort of ... because you are quoting vocationally or you are quoting academic qualifications but when you talk about education as a process, that is a much wider process.
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
It is, yes. I think one of the most profound things as an educationalist, as you say, is that every single person has unique gifts and talents and can contribute to this society. I do not think you can make a more profound statement than that. As a religious man, I would put that in a religious context. For me, I do not believe that God makes rubbish. I believe that God makes us as unique, valuable individuals, and as an educationalist my job is to help people unlock their potential. But that is me speaking from a religious justification. I think you can equally stand as a humanist and say: "It is the dignity of humanity that we allow people to have the capacity to expand their knowledge, their wisdom, their mind, and education should be about that. It would be foolish of me to suggest that that should be the only reason because of course, as well as that, society will benefit. You will have people who are able to do highly-skilled jobs, people who are able to do artisan work and so forth. But whatever your particular talent, whether it is vocational, technical or academic, you have a gift, you have a talent. Education should enable that talent to grow. Simply by making that statement, I think it is a very powerful one. I look at areas such as Sweden and Norway where their education system is not based on: "This is what we as a society want from you." It is based upon: "If we educate you, if we allow you to recognise the value of others, it will enrich our society." Sorry, I am philosophising, which is probably not what you wanted.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I have absolutely no problem with that. I am finding it quite ...
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
One headmaster I know says: "Every single chid in the school has a unique talent. It is up to us to release that talent."
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
Absolutely. I would suggest that there are no teachers who would ever disagree with that. That is why we go into education.
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
But often it needs to be said and I think that is important. Can I bang on my drum about the changing world we have out there? Change is constant, it has been phenomenal over the last 10 years, call it the inter-web, call it whatever you want, but one of the things that has happened is the job for life is no longer there. How are you preparing your children to take on this new world outside and what is the sort of careers advice as well as people advice that you are giving them to pop them into that?
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
I think how do you prepare people for what you do not know exists in the future. How people are always prepared for the future? I think the key thing is you create skills rather than, this is a corpus of knowledge that if you learn you will then have that job. You create children who have good skillsets, so they are able to inform themselves. That they are able to use technology, absolutely, but it is not just about your ability to use technology because technology evolves. What we can do is rather than focusing on the technical side of: you can use an IBM or an Apple or whatever; why? Why do we do that? I think it is about saying to a student that the most successful entrepreneurs are people who have ideas. People who have drive and determination. Not people who have a grade A in physics. The people that have been successful in this world of change which, if you will forgive me, is not unique to us. It has been generations of change. Are the people who have grasped the opportunity because they have the confidence of their abilities because they know whatever comes to us this is a challenge, yes. But it is also an opportunity. That comes from seeing education as more than teaching simply technical things in a syllabus. It is about saying whatever that syllabus is you have the skills to acquire that knowledge and to succeed in that world. That, to me, is what we endeavour to do. Not just at De La Salle but all educationalists, I would hope, would have that in their heart, and that is how you prepare for the future. Because I do not know what the future is going to be.
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
I get that but one of the things I have noticed ... I was born here, lived in London for 35 years and I came back 5 years ago, so I have got some ...
Headteacher, De La Salle College: Absolutely.
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
One thing I have noticed, which I see more over here, is, I do not know why, focus on persuading your children - mainly the parents, I think - to adopt a career that is going to make them successful in Jersey. So finance sector, accountancy, even more, which concerns me greatly because not every kid wants to go down that route. In fact, for many it will be disastrous. What are you doing on a practical sense to give them the opportunity to find their vocation, their career, their life, regardless about whether it is Jersey or not, it is about them, whether they can be successful and fulfilled, which is the ...
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
I totally understand where you are coming from. I think for me one of the reasons why parents look at those particular jobs and say: "Oh, this is something that you should aim towards" is there is this concept that because those jobs tend to be higher paid than other jobs that if you gain a highly paid job you will be able to acquire the possessions that will bring you happiness. That simply is not the case. There are members of the legal profession who are happy not because they are able to acquire those possessions but because they are interested in the job, they are interested in seeking justice, they are interested in helping people. Equally there are lawyers who have all of those things that parents might think bring happiness and they are the most unhappy and miserable people. I see that in my own profession where you have teachers who, whether it is true or not, I do not know, but would say to me: "If I won the lottery I would still be here the next day because I want to teach because this stimulates my mind. This is something that is my vocation." And I meet other teachers who see it as: "This is a way in which I get through the day and I earn some money." For me, how can you persuade parents to value an artisan, to value somebody who is able to fix a complicated piece of machinery. It is to say that it is not about what you do that makes you happy, it is about: is that challenging you? Are you able to find happiness in more than simply the quantity of possessions that you have? That, I think, is a great challenge for us. I think having moved to Jersey, one of the things that impresses me in Jersey, as I moved from the U.K., was that people here have time for one another. People talk to one another. It is a society that with all its problems, because all societies have problems, it is a compassionate society. I look at simply the number of charities. I look at the boys at the school who at the end of this month will be walking 36 miles around the Island to raise funds to give to charity. That to me is one of the most amazing things that Jersey has retained. I profoundly hope it never loses that sense of community that has meant that for me I have made it my home for 17 years because there is something very special here. Sometimes the closer you are to it, the less you recognise it. I am sorry if that did not answer your question. I got into that realm of philosophy again. I am sorry.
The Deputy of St. John :
You spoke earlier about diversity of the student population and as a result the different courses that you have to run, which means employing a diverse range of teaching staff. You also mentioned that there was a rationed amount of school psychologist time.
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
Perhaps I made an error there in what I was saying. What I am saying is we are allowed a notional amount. If we require more, we will have to fund it ourselves. It is not that the children do not receive what they need. It is simply that we have a notional sum. As I said, I am sure there is a very complicated mathematical equation behind that notional sum but the reality is that if we want to allow children, whatever their particular need, access to education as a right, then it should not be based upon a notional sum of money devised by a mathematical calculation. It should be based on the need of the child and there, if you like, that was my wish that we would look at 16-plus and say: "What is the need for that child, that young person, to succeed?" rather than the mathematical formula tells me that you have £36,000 to spend on special educational needs.
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
Including robbing Peter to Paul.
Headteacher, De La Salle College: Absolutely.
The Deputy of St. John :
What other non-teaching services would you see being able to access to give your students what is needed by way of emotional support?
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
Again, what I do not want to do is to suggest that our students do not have access to it. For example, we have a school counsellor. We fully fund that. We fund it because the well-being of students is very critical and important to us. We fund that from the fees that we receive from the parents because I think, as a society, we have caught up with the idea that we need to care for people's emotional well-being and the nonsense of the stiff upper lip is just that, and always has been a nonsense. In order for people to be successful and fulfilled you have to give them access to good counselling services, good pastoral care; we do that. But it is based upon the fact that I identify the need and then I use that expression rob Peter to pay Paul rather than a statement saying irrespective of where you are educated, you are a child of Jersey and therefore you will have what you need to access that education. But that is me on my high hobby horse. I am not saying that is what it should be, it is what I wish it was.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I am conscious of time ...
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
I can tell, you are looking at your clock. I am a teacher, I see straightaway that you are looking at the clock.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I am thinking about you because you are sat there alone, we do an hour on you ...
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
You pointed that out to me when I came in. "Is it just you?" you said to me. I felt quite big.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
No, I did not mean it that way. I was thinking about your well-being.
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
Can I expand on the funding one because ... this is really interesting because, as you know, our current Council of Ministers, Assembly, Sam Mézec , put children first and this is a very important part of that, which we of course signed and pledged to deliver. I know you said it was a bit idealistic and mathematically calculated, but how would we make that easier for you in order to be able to secure what is probably not a lot of funding but it is a flexible amount of funding in order to deliver that extra care to those individual children that might need it on more of a piecemeal basis, I suggest?
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
I am an idealist. But I live pragmatically and I am a realist. I understand that as a group of politicians there is a certain sum of money and that you will be prioritising. I have no idea what the need is in other schools. It may well be that I am saying I would love this and I would love that and in ideal world I would have these things. The Director of Education saying: "You have no idea what else that is beyond your scope, Jason Turner." I think that for me I can express an ideal. This is what I would love to see. I think that is essentially something that I would have to hand over to you as politicians to say: "Are you making this as a statement and therefore the funding will follow the statement" or are you saying: "We must be mindful of the funding that we have and distribute the resources according to an assessment of need." Sorry, to make that ...
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
You are the first person that has not come in with a begging bowl saying: "We need more money categorically" and I am finding that quite enlightening the fact that you are ...
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
We can always do more if we have more.
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
You are working well within whatever you have.
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
Of course if you give me more ... if you said to me: "You can have £1 million, what would you spend it on?" I would say: "I would spend it on increasing the number of post-18 courses available to students at this Island so that they are able to access education." Not up to 18 but beyond without being forced to leave the Island. To me that is a very powerful thing again, that I know a lot of institutions are trying to investigate but I can imagine that there are students who are unable to go to university, even though I think the States have done a magnificent thing in fully funding. I think that was a fantastic statement. But if you have never been away from the Island and I come from the city of Stoke on Trent. I lived there all my life. It was a real wrench. Nobody in my family had ever been to university before. I knew nothing about what it was like. It was hard to leave. All I had to do was travel down a motorway 40 miles. I knew if I got lonely and homesick I would just get on a train and I would be back home. Here it is incredibly difficult.
[14:45]
It is not just about money. It is about that sense of this world out there that shocks me and I do not know what it is going to be like. "My parents cannot afford to fly me back because I have got the grant to live on but I have not got the money when I feel lonely just to get on a plane and fly back here." If we could somehow provide more post-18 degree courses on-Island I think it would be again making one of those philosophical statements that education does not stop at 18 or 16. As an Island we would do our best to give that opportunity.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I was going to ask you a couple of things to finish off. One of them was 3 wishes, if you were given 3 wishes, which I always like to finish with. You have already, I think, given us 2 of them but before I ask you for your third one, which I think everyone is entitled to their 3, do you think there is any particular demographic on the Island that you are not reaching? I have asked this of all of the post- 16s. Is there any section of the Island you feel you could reach more in terms of to improve the diversity of your school, for example?
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
Of course. We are a school where you have to pay fees. That eliminates an enormous number of the population who, however much we would love them to access what we do, they simply cannot. That is a reality of the system in which we operate. There are many benefits of the system in Jersey and it is a wonderful system. Far be it for me to criticise it in any way. I am not. But if you are saying to me: "How can I reach more?" well being able to say to students: "If you wish to study there you can access a means-tested grant to allow you to do so." What a wonderful wish that would be. I think I have given you 3.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I think you have given me 3. Is there anything else that you want to ask?
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
I would like to next time when we do this, I would like to understand the ways of which we could help kids who do go to university abroad or to the U.K. be better supported, be it within groups in the U.K. together. Making sure they are all going to London universities, they know each other so they can talk to each other and support each other, things like that.
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
Things like social media allowing an access to social networking site where you have got a Jersey student site. This is where I think probably you could start. But I am of a generation where the wonders of social media are completely lost on me and the students tell me it can do all these things. But they are able to have friends in America. They are able to have friends in New Zealand that they will never see but they are friends. They are a support network. I think that is something where, with the Island's undoubted capability in modern technology - I mean digital technology on the Island is superb - surely it is not beyond our wit to create a means by which they can communicate with one other, message one another.
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
This is not my idea, this was knocking on doors last May and a 22 year-old gave me a very long lecture on this on how it could be done better. That was getting the Jersey/Guernsey group together and having the Island to promote it so they can share their experiences. "I am feeling a bit lonely today." "Yes, so am I but I will be better tomorrow." "That is fine so are we going to get through this stage."
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Universities do a lot of work on that as well.
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
I think it does also help ... there have been, and I am sure you are well aware of them, cases of students from Jersey who have taken their own life because they are alone, something has hit them. Whether that is a poor result or whatever. They have no support network on which to lean and I think being able to perhaps just have a number you can ring this person. Almost like the Samaritans. "If you are feeling like that here is somebody who you can ring, who you can contact in Jersey who is going to pick up that phone and say: How are you feeling? I am going to stay here to get you through these 5 minutes, these 10 minutes, where you are contemplating the unimaginable'", because you think that this is so important that you take a life.
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
But what is interesting is it is different from Jersey and Guernsey. I went to London and my kids went to university and they just disappeared, never interested in us anymore at all. We were very lucky. But I can see why going to universities, even 60, 70 or 80, 90 miles away you can get home if you need that quite quickly whereas here just that physical barrier of the sea means you have to have that extra level of support to make sure it is there, in case. I think that is a uniqueness that we have to cover and that is something that concerns me, is that we get them through the education and: "Well done, you, you got 3 As", you go to XYZ university and that is just the start. That needs to be supported to ensure that they get through the early stages, they are fulfilled, they thrive, they get a good degree.
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
Who knows? They may say: "I will come back" because you never lose contact with them.
Deputy R.E. Huelin:
As long as it is their choice.
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
As long as it is their choice but if you keep in touch with somebody, if you keep making contact with them, you are saying: "You are important, you are valuable to our community", when they are sitting there thinking: "Do I come back to Jersey or do I stay in the U.K.?" maybe they will come back and maybe they will talk because they realise this is a place that cares for us.
Deputy R.E. Huelin: It took me 35 years.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Do you have any questions for us?
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
No, I hope I have answered all your questions. I am sorry if I have been pontificating. My students tell me I have that habit.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
It is really useful. The point of this and the process is to gather information, to get a picture of what is going on. You have given a very clear picture and that is appreciated. This is why we have these hearings. There is nothing better than communicating face to face. You can do as many surveys as you want but talking is really important.
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
I think qualitative communication is so much better than trying to turn everything into statistics, and you are speaking to a statistician.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
So if there is nothing else, thank you very much for your time.
Headteacher, De La Salle College:
Thank you for your time and for showing this interest. Thank you very much.
[14:51]