Transcript - One Gov Review - Chief Minister and Chief Executive - 3 March 2020

OneGov Review Panel OneGov Review

Witness: The Chief Minister

Tuesday, 3rd March 2020

Panel:

Connétable K. Shenton-Stone of St. Martin (Chair) Senator K.L. Moore

Deputy K.F. Morel of St. Lawrence :

Witnesses:

Senator J.A.N. Le Fondré, The Chief Minister

Deputy S.M. Wickenden of St. Helier , Assistant Chief Minister

Mr. C. Parker, Chief Executive

Mr. T. Walker , Director General, Strategic Policy, Planning and Performance: Mr. M. Grimley, Group Director, People and Corporate Services

Mr. C. May, Head of Communications, Office for the Chief Executive

Mr. S. Mair, Group Director, Treasury and Exchequer

[14:01]

Connétable K. Shenton-Stone of St. Martin (Chair):

I think we should all start by introducing ourselves. I think we are all very aware of the rules and regulations in terms of a public hearing. I am Karen Shenton-Stone , Constable of St. Martin and chair of the One Gov Review Panel.

Senator K.L. Moore :

Senator Kristina Moore . I am a member of the panel.

Deputy K.F. Morel of St. Lawrence :

Deputy Kirsten Morel , a member of the panel.

The Chief Minister:

Senator John Le Fondré, Chief Minister.

Assistant Chief Minister:

Deputy Scott Wickenden. I am the Assistant Chief Minister and Assistant Minister for Social Security.

Chief Executive:

Charlie Parker, I am the Chief Executive.

Director General, Strategic Policy, Planning and Performance:

Tom Walker , I am the Director General for Strategic Policy, Planning and Performance.

Group Director, People and Corporate Services:

Mark Grimley, Group Director for People and Corporate Services.

Head of Communications, Office for the Chief Executive:

Christian May, Head of Communications, Office for the Chief Executive.

Group Director, Treasury and Exchequer:

Steven Mair, Group Director in Treasury and Exchequer.

The Chief Minister:

We have got a couple of extras, according to the question list whether we need to bring them in or out.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Thank you. So we will start with the first question which is: is the OneGov project programme series of interrelated programmes of work now known as "Modernising Government", can we expect any further name changes in the future?

The Chief Minister:

I was going to say certainly not that I am aware of or anticipating. As we have said, it is a series of initiatives. I think the point is that over time, bearing in mind it is all tied into the whole transformation programme, it will eventually become business as usual. Charlie, I do not know if you want to add to that.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

But you have renamed it now as "Modernising Government"?

Chief Executive: No.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

No, you have not? Right. Thank you.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Moving on. With regards to the report R.149/2019 and the use of consultants, in that report it says that approximately £11 million was spent on consultants in the first half of 2019. As an overall question, do you believe that was money well spent?

The Chief Minister:

I think you have got to stand back and say why do we use consultants. So the short answer is yes, it has got to be money well spent. The reason these consultants or any of the other labels, because we are using it as a generic brand across the whole thing, and all my time in the States and before, the States or the Government have always used consultants in differing forms. It is either because people are doing kind of business as usual and have not got the time/capacity to do an extra piece of work which is being asked of them, is to bring in a fresh pair of eyes to a certain area or it is to bring in particular expertise that we probably have not got. So on that basis, that is going, I suspect, to carry on. On the basis of we are going through the biggest transformation I think this organisation has probably ever seen, yes, we are going to need to use consultants and therefore on that basis provided the end objective is achieved, which is the transformation. So a change in the culture of the organisation and all that type of stuff and, yes, it will be because it's ultimately about giving a better, more effective service for the public.

Senator K.L. Moore :

It is rather hard however, Chief Minister, when the Minister for Education, for example, is fighting still to prevent £3.5 million from being taken from her Education budget because she feels it would affect the running of schools to see a culture programme costing £3 million and other large sums being spent on consultants.

The Chief Minister:

Actually I disagree. So firstly I think it is either £1.7 million or £1.9 million, it is not £3.5 million, because there are measures that the Minister for Education has and did sign up to. The second point is she has made it very, very clear that of the various statements that have been suggested for her area and there will be others, as we said there are 3 steps in that process, provided they do not negatively affect the education outcome for children she will be supportive of them. She has reaffirmed that very, very recently to me. But we have also got to go back, you mentioned the culture programme, which I presume is what you mean by Team Jersey. If we did have the whole thing around bullying and all that type of bad behaviour you have got to spend money and put money into that to change it. You cannot not change.

Senator K.L. Moore :

Some would say that it has become worse.

The Chief Minister:

Well if you can give us the evidence we will look into it but perhaps, Mark, you would like to address that.

Group Director, People and Corporate Services:

In terms of the Team Jersey programme this panel has previously met here it is in detail - K.P.I.s (key performance indicators) that come out of that, what we expect to see, and it is the same with many of the other contracts that we put in place. In May this year we will do a staff survey to start that longitudinal evidence of the impact it is having.

The Chief Minister:

That will build up so the first staff survey after the chief executive came in, which was before I was in this post, because I think it came out in, I will say sort of February, March, April of 2018 from memory, this will then at least give us a comparison. But do not forget the organisation in this whole chain of programme will take longer so this will give us a point in time but there will be other points in time that will see whether that trend is hopefully improving, which is what it should be. And if it is not in certain points that will mean we identify where further pieces of work need to be done.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Going back to the overall use of consultants, how much of the £11 million but also since then, how much do you think OneGov, as a programme, has spent on consultants.

The Chief Minister:

In terms of the split in consultants I would have to defer to Charlie or Tom, I think, or possibly Steve behind us.

Chief Executive:

If you remember, there was a transition budget for 2019, which we reported on to you previously, and we talked about a budget of just under ... it is about £9.8 million which was associated with a number of the key initiatives under the OneGov banner. We are just obviously in the throes of closing the accounts but suffice it to say that we will come in £300,000 under budget in 2019 and that clearly deals with a number of key areas of where some consultants were employed. So Team Jersey, depending on your definition, going back to the Chief Minister's earlier point, finance transformation where we obviously had a big contract with EY, some of the modernisation and digital work where we had to bring in both interims and also particularly around some key aspects of cybersecurity, et cetera, some support, resourcing for new target operating models and the transition team costs. Those were the 5 headings of which there were subheadings for the number of contractors/consultants/interims/fixed-term appointments, and all of that, as I say, has come in at £300,000 below budget and will be reported as part of the annual accounts when they get published in a couple of weeks.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

So what was the overall budget?

Chief Executive:

So the overall budget originally was £9.869 million and we have come in at circa £9.5 million.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

So that includes the second half of 2019; that is the whole of 2019?

Chief Executive: That is 2019.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

That gets rid of my next question.

Chief Executive:

You will recognise that some costs transferred. So by way of example, a couple of the transition team then went into roles within the organisation for fixed terms and there are some costs from 2019 that bleed into 2020 but those are the costs that were budgeted for and anticipated and have been audited.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Looking ahead to 2020, how much do you expect to spend in similar areas over the coming year?

Chief Executive:

You will see now what we have done for the Government Plan in 2020 and beyond is to consolidate this activity into B.A.U. (business as usual), so each of the departmental budget heads will have activity which goes back to my point about these are a series of initiatives under the banner of OneGov, which will then be seen at departmental level and obviously at ministerial level depending on how you cut the budget. We have therefore now integrated it fully within the mainstream budgets. The issue about the number of consultants and obviously fixed term and all the rest of it, you know that we will be bringing back a second report on that. That will now be incorporated in the Government Plan going forward as well, so that therefore alongside the efficiencies and everything you will see a regular monitoring and regulisation, as you might want to say, of the use of consultants, et cetera. The ambition of course is to bring that number down but clearly there will be - and Mark can explain it a little bit about this - some periods where we are transitioning into a position where B.A.U. might be particularly, let us take I.C.T. (information and communications technology) work, 18 months away and we have got some people that will be on fixed-term contracts until that process is complete. We have got other parts of the organisation where we are putting in interim people for the period until some of the technology comes on board, so under the finance transformation work. We always said that it would ramp up and then the numbers of headcount will come down. We have got a number of people that will be filling fixed-term roles in that space as well. So these are part of now the normal reporting process, so in the quarterly reporting you will see all of that laid out in the departmental level.

The Chief Minister:

The other 2 points I suppose is that there is a piece of work going to be coming through which is about again keeping refining the processes, giving some greater clarity on definitions and how people are captured under the system. Perhaps Mark might want to comment on that. That is literally coming through from the officer side and we are coming up to S.E.B. (States Employment Board) fairly shortly. Do not forget the general principle on these are on consultants but where ... I am going back to the R.149 report where we have been talking about agency staff and things like that in the past. The intention is by switching of course to permanent you have a person at a lower cost even though they are doing the same job. So that is the ultimate ambition through the whole thing. But we are still finding anomalies. This is this whole bringing together. We are still finding anomalies that have been in the system for a long time so part of this whole transformation is still digging out things where processes perhaps have failed in the past and they are now being correctly reported to us.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

When you say "anomalies" what kind of things do you mean, by way of example?

Chief Executive:

So when we have gone through the clean-up, through the target operating models, and you go through the staffing lists and profiles, there have been examples where, unbeknownst to people, colleagues have been within the establishment that you think are permanent members of staff but have been consultants or interims. We have had some examples where they have been there literally several years, so way before my time. We have, as we have systematically gone through, been able to identify those anomalies. Interestingly when it has gone to S.E.B. there has been even the comment that some people, from a political point of view, had thought that they were permanent long-term members of staff. So that is how long some of this has been going on.

The Chief Minister:

So we are not saying it is a good thing at all but we are saying it is a good thing that we are finding it.

Chief Executive:

So I think the expression that the States Employment Board used was let us try and bring out all of your dead around this particular matter, which was done, but every so often you find the gremlins and we keep having to just recognise that that is happening. But as we are bringing the target operating model work to a close those issues should become fewer and fewer and ultimately we will then have a fixed position and I think Mark, in his new role, will be able to then have a central record of everybody. Because I think I have made it clear before, we did not always know who we had on the payroll for a variety of reasons.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

This might be more for Mark, but I will address it here but feel free to pass on. From an employment law perspective, those anomalies so to speak, they essentially ... the States of Jersey has the same legal responsibility towards those anomalies.

[14:15]

The Chief Minister:

That is right. This is why we are talking about high level because we do not want to go down to identifying individuals.

Chief Executive:

But you are quite right, the liabilities and the issues about what happens in those situations is that, in effect, they are employees but we have not been paying them costs that you might have paid for an employee on a standard basis.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

No, that is fine. Can I just ask as well: you talk about people moving from consultants to fixed-term contracts, et cetera, are you personally getting the feeling that the ranks of senior management are swelling within the Government? Is that something you would agree with or do you think numbers are ...

Group Director, People and Corporate Services:

So when the first phase of the target operating model came through we reduced the number of senior managers reporting into the chief executive. As we have gone through the target operating models into tiers 2 and 3 we have principles that expands and layers of control to make sure that we have got appropriate, so there is now one-to-one reporting. I think where there may be a perception is where we have a number of interim or consultant positions that are supplementing a senior structure as it either beds down or for a specific project. So, for example, you get a programme director for our hospital, that would be seen in the senior management structure. It is not part of the permanent structure.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Do you - not necessarily to say now - but would you have those comparative figures and would you be able to provide them to the panel for our evidence?

Group Director, People and Corporate Services: We do. Of course.

Deputy K.F. Morel : Thank you.

Chief Executive:

One thing I would add - sorry, Deputy - the other thing is as we have gone through the tiers we are doing some recruitment so we have a number of posts which are in the structure, for example, that will come from the Government Plan, where we are investing or growing where the ministerial priorities are. Sometimes that means that you get new faces. Sometimes that can be perceived as if you are swelling the ranks, as you put it. That is not necessarily though, depending on where they sit in the organisation, all at the top of the organisation.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Do you know as well how many contracts in terms of consultancy contracts are set to expire in 2019 or were set to expire in 2019? How many do you expect to be renewed?

The Chief Minister:

If you just refer to page 3 on R.149. Is that not the starting point, fourth paragraph down?

Group Director, People and Corporate Services:

I think the answer is yes, we do now have it to hand. We can provide that.

Deputy K.F. Morel : That would be great.

The Chief Minister:

But there is an indication, but maybe it is not the total, on page 3, fourth paragraph down on R.149 which does say ... it does depend on the tables. It says 7 contracts in table 1 expected to be extended, 142 are not. Table 2 is 15 expect to be extended while 49 are not.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

There is obviously an expectation rather than guarantee?

The Chief Minister: Yes.

Group Director, People and Corporate Services:

That was month 1 to 6 for 2019. The question was 2020.

The Chief Minister: Sorry, yes.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Moving on but sticking with consultants in a way. A human resources consultant has had their contract extended 3 times, we understand, due to a slower than expected departmental restructuring. Do you believe that this was necessary to deliver the restructuring programme or could restructuring be carried out without the presence of that consultant?

The Chief Minister:

I was going to pause because it depends which individual we are talking about. But in general terms, on the basis that H.R. (human resources) was beyond lean - I think was the comment we keep quoting from C. and A.G. (Comptroller an Auditor General) - then if you are going through that transformation programme and as we said, I think H.R. has gone from like 55 to 90, is it not, in terms of staff, it makes sense to make sure that if somebody started their job they get it finished. I think that is the high-level comment. If it is also to do with I think pay negotiations and things like that or not, then it is again important that I think we have that consistency because I think they have guided us through some very difficult times.

Group Director, People and Corporate Services:

The Deputy is referring specifically to the H.R. director in Health. He came in, initially, to help with the senior management tier 1s and 2s for Health and Community Services. He was extended to continue the T.O.M. (target operating model) work there. When I came in, in June last year, which was the third extension, I asked him to stay on to give me some capacity as I started to do my target operating model. I think you referred to an article in the Bailiwick Express about the delay. The delay was partly because I did not join until June and it took a while to work out what we needed to do and also for the Government Plan. He has extended to the end of October as part of a transition plan. Within the People and Corporate Services target operating model I have allowed for a number of transitional roles and that is because I got quite a talented group of people underneath those levels but they are not quite there to go to director or head of service level. So I am allowing a few more months to develop them in role to allow them to go to the external appointments.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

You mentioned the People and Corporate Services transition programme and its restructuring, given there are some delays how confident are you that it will finish in October 2020?

Group Director, People and Corporate Services: That role will finish in October 2020.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Will the overall transition?

Group Director, People and Corporate Services:

The transition we said would take about 2 years because we have got to wait for the final component of that, which is the integrated technology solution. We went live with the structure this week so as soon as the Government Plan was approved we went into consultation. We have started the transition in February, once we finished consultation, and we now have a 9-month plan that will take us just beyond October for the first phase. That is about getting the basics right. And then the key deliverables, that I think this panel would certainly take an interest in about what is the difference that the investment is making. They will start to come through at Q4 and into next year.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

You are confident that that work will go on as planned at the level that is expected?

Group Director, People and Corporate Services: Yes.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

The final one on consultancy was one of the things that was highlighted in my report and proposal to get the reports on consultants was lack of post-consultancy analysis that is done in many cases. With regard to individual consultancy positions, how confident are you that these post-consultancy analyses are being done? Also, will you look at it, take OneGov, as an overall kind of package as well? Did overall the consultancies deliver the value you would expect it to, that sort of thing?

Chief Executive:

There are 2 levels of that. There are individuals where you have got to look at what they have done or where they have made a contribution, so I think it is fair to say that we are doing that and one of the ways in which we are capturing most of that now is all the exit interviews, work that we are doing, and looking at the improvements that are being made around appraisals, which include interims, so that we have an understanding of their contributions. An interestingly S.E.B. now in approving any extension to any interim consultancy, fixed-term contract, to be determined how we call it, ask what is the evidence of their contribution, if it is an extension. Where it is a larger consultancy, which might come in, so let us take the work we are doing on zero-based budgeting at the moment which has gone out and we have got a partner in to help us with that, we will do a number of things to test whether they are doing what is now laid out very clearly in the procurement strategy. So by way of example, how are we doing a skills and knowledge transfer? What is it that they will have accrued in terms of either savings or contributions to let us, in that case, say the efficiencies target? What is it that they will have done which enables us to develop our in-house capability to take over from them? Those sorts of criteria are now being used. So we do not have it for some of the earlier consultants that we used. I will be absolutely honest. We had some churn at the beginning where we felt that there were some people who came but for a variety of reasons it was not right. We do not have it for some of those that would be included like bank nurses or social workers or supply teachers or whatever because they have a different set of arrangements where ...

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Consultants rather than agencies?

Chief Executive:

Yes. So those sorts of personnel they would be considered in a different environment to whether they are contributing to the changes that we want. The final bit for me is we do have inevitably, as Mark has just outlined, some of this transitioning over a longer period where it is about very specialist skills. So it is less about, dare I say it, knowledge transfer and all of those. It is about can they help with the project. So I.C.T., and I am sure the Deputy will say a bit more about that. We have got some very specific skills to do very specific jobs either in a decommissioning or a double running or a transition into a new programme, which you just have to go out and get. Business does that on a regular basis. You would not necessarily see that as anything other than technical expertise and therefore the criteria for that would be different.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

But you would still undertake an analysis to make sure that they were value for money. You would not know whether to use them again or not.

Chief Executive:

You would but you would also be building it into the fact that you just do not have that expertise. So there is a bit about if you have not got it anything that does it is better than what you have got because you have not got it.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I am just thinking on that particular issue is that later on you may come across the same problems and you would want to know whether they were worth it or not and whether perhaps you should choose a different company next time.

Chief Executive:

Yes, so reinstatement of consultants is a big issue but, Mark, correct me if I am wrong, we are also doing a lot more work around the better scoping of what people want at the beginning. So you do not just put your hand up and say I want something. So we are looking across the organisation. Can we move people around who maybe have some skills and there is a development opportunity?

Deputy K.F. Morel :

That was one of the other things that was missing was the needs analysis done in advance of consultation.

Chief Executive:

So going forward there will be a bigger and better assessment of that sort of requirement.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Is that in place now, those sorts of processes, or are they still to be done?

Chief Executive:

So for people, we have a process do we not, which looks at whether we have got in-house skills, et cetera, before we go out to the market. For activity, you are developing the impact analysis work for the Government Plan for 2021 and beyond, are you not?

Director General, Strategic Policy, Planning and Performance:

Yes. So what we would hope is that we can be more systematic in looking at where we have got the capability to deliver on the kind of broader well-being outcomes that the Government is seeking to achieve and where we have got gaps where we need to strengthen that, where we are strong in some areas and less strong in others. So, yes, we are hoping to be able to take a much more systematic approach to that.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Chief Minister, recently the Minister for Education made comments on social media criticising the amount of money spent on consultants and told users never to become as States Member who has an ambition or mind of their own. How do you respond to this?

The Chief Minister:

Yes, I was made aware of Senator Vallois' comments. I have not had a chance to discuss them with her directly but, as I said, we did have quite a long and productive discussion around her efficiency targets and her approach to them, which was around the not negatively impacting; a statement I made earlier. From that perspective, she seemed satisfied. That is as far as I can go I think at this stage.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Were you disappointed by her comments?

Assistant Chief Minister:

I do not think that is fair, is it, in the One Review panel? It is very personal.

Senator K.L. Moore :

I do not think it is because it is about the direction that the Chief Minister is giving to something that is a fundamental change to services. Efficiencies and impacts upon children is a part of that.

Assistant Chief Minister: But it is personal views.

Senator K.L. Moore :

For a Government who puts children first this is the Minister for Education and she holds her views because of her views ...

Assistant Chief Minister:

And she is entitled to her views.

Senator K.L. Moore :

... with regards to the efficiencies.

The Chief Minister:

I have just explained the position on the efficiencies. We had a very productive meeting with her last week and that was the position.

Senator K.L. Moore :

Sorry, what was the position? Can you be very clear because it is really important?

The Chief Minister:

She has stated very clearly, she is not against any efficiencies provided they do not negatively impact on the educational outcome for a child.

Senator K.L. Moore :

Yes, and her point is that some of those that are being required of her do that, they impact on school budgets?

The Chief Minister:

No, her point is that she is .. her point is that she has not been given the information she feels in the format she feels to give her the ability to determine that or not. So we went through quite a detailed discussion to identify exactly where her concerns were and officers have been sent away to provide the information in the right format. I understand some of it was very close to being ready anyway, and they will come back in the very near future to ensure we can resolve this. I would just point out that for the purposes of achieving the efficiencies it is not all the education ones, it is an element of them. It is the ones she has been very clear on from the beginning and there are a variety of ways that that particular budget can meet its target for 2020. We have alluded in the past, and they remain the same, although again Senator Vallois has stated provided there is no negative impact on the education of a child she is almost certainly going to be supportive of the efficiencies that are put in front of her.

Senator K.L. Moore :

Can you look us in the eye this afternoon and tell us that you are ... you can reassure us that those efficiencies do not impact upon school budgets, which is what your Minister is asking?

The Chief Minister:

School budgets have not been in the frame and, as I said, Senator Vallois has stated that she is ...

[14:30]

As long as it does not negatively impact on the education of a child then ... and she wants that data. That is just the update from last week.

Senator K.L. Moore :

Okay, so the target operating models, could you just outline the progress that is being made over the past 6 months please?

Chief Executive:

I just wonder whether that would be better for Mark to answer now that he is in post and obviously co-ordinating all of that.

Group Director, People and Corporate Services:

And I have been here for the past 6 months. A lot of work has gone on across all the departments. We have now finished Treasury and Exchequer, Customer and Local Services and the Office for the Chief Executive with the exception on the Office for the Chief Executive the recent moves of the economy, which started this month. The Chief Operating Office, the People and Corporate Services target operating model is complete and live. We are in consultation and a project consultation for modernisation, digital and for commercial. S.P.P.P. (Strategic Policy, Planning and Performance) has already completed. The 2 larger departments, which is Health and Community Services; Health and Community Services have done the majority of theirs, they are now heading towards the low tiers of tiers 4, 5 and 6. We do not expect to see a big impact because of the type of clinical roles that we have got in there. For C.Y.P.E.S (Children, Young People, Education and Skills), we are in the implementation of recruitment to tiers 3 and 4 and about to start ... in just over a week's time we start the consultation for tiers 5 and 6. Then for J.H.A. (Justice and Home Affairs) and G.H.E. (Growth, Housing and Environment), and apologies for all these 3 letter acronyms, they have been slightly delayed and members will be aware of some of the political decisions that were taken around those departments, which has pushed that back. So this panel would expect to see the majority of the T.O.M.s completed by end of Q1, beginning of Q2, some heading into June affecting a fewer number of staff. There was a question at this panel previously about pay protection and as of today we have only 55 people out of nearly 1,000 people have gone through the T.O.M.s on pay protection. So the fear is that people would have to reapply for their jobs, significant redundancies, or significant pay protection have not borne through.

Senator K.L. Moore :

You have outlined there, thank you, for running forward that some of the people heavy departments, I think J.H.A. is at least 600 people, G.H.E. is another that is quite heavily populated, also Health and Community Services, and I appreciate what you sway about the clinical roles but that still means that there are a considerable number of people to still go through the process. You have outlined very briefly why and when the process is due to be complete. Do you feel that it is acceptable that that large number of people are still in a position where they are very unsure about their roles into the future?

Group Director, People and Corporate Services:

One of the things we have done, and we are taking to the OneGov board next week, is a review of the processes we are taking people through. So the first phase in some of the early departments, it took quite a long time to go through those and we recognise and we have had feedback from the trade unions and from staff that it is unsettling, and we all recognise that. There are a number of recommendations, that I will not put forward here because it is for the OneGov board to look at first, that will speed up the process for colleagues. So there are a number of things that we have learned from the initial implementations that we think can reduce the amount of anxiety that people go through, giving greater certainty early in the process and reduce the need for unnecessary process to put people into roles.

Senator K.L. Moore :

So you accept that some of it has been unnecessary?

Group Director, People and Corporate Services:

I think we have learned, so from a professional point of view all the right things are in place. I think one thing that we have learnt as we have implemented is that there are things that we can improve and make a bit faster. I think from a management point of view, using managers' capacity on process can be slimmed down so that we continue to focus on the services.

Senator K.L. Moore :

How does one go about rebuilding the service now once such a large number of the people who make it happen and deliver those day-to-day services have been through a process that has been bruising and unsettling, as is recognised?

Group Director, People and Corporate Services:

One of the things that we have learnt from the previous target operating model implementations is the need for a change readiness assessment. So where are people and how are they feeling about it first? Because that informs how you communicate and engage throughout that process. You also take poll surveys through to see whether or not the communication is having the effect. We did not have those before so we have started to introduce that. The second thing is involving staff in the transition plans. Again some of the departments did not do this fully and therefore people were unsure about what they needed to do as they came out of that. We have implemented a toolkit to help people with that planning. In fact, my own department are doing that at the moment to make sure that we move things in a timely and orderly manner and that people do not feel that they are letting go of something because staff care about their job and just leaving it to wither that it goes somewhere or we finish the work. So again, we can do that. We have also got Team Jersey that is helping build resilience around change, and that is a key programme because that is allowing people to raise issues outside of the T.O.M. process and that gets fed back into the centre.

The Chief Minister:

Can I just clarify, you used the expression "bruising and unsettling"? I can accept unsettling, where did the bruising come from?

Senator K.L. Moore :

Unsettling was a direct quote, bruising was mine.

The Chief Minister:

That is okay, so that is your opinion.

Senator K.L. Moore :

I was going to come to you next, Chief Minister, because it was unfair and I should ... forgive me for asking you whether it was reasonable because that is a political question. I should have directed it at the Chief Minister; whether you, Chief Minister, are content and feel that the process has been correct when you have this feedback that members of the team who make and deliver the services for Jersey have found the process to be unsettling?

The Chief Minister:

Right, so we are ditching the bruising now.

Senator K.L. Moore : I shall, if you wish.

The Chief Minister:

I think 2 things. Any change in any organisation, we have said it before, is going to be unsettling. When you are going through dealing with 7,000-plus employees who are going through this whole chain probably ... may well be one of first, if not few times in their lives, it is always unsettling. I have had it at least once in my life when the firm I worked with merged with another firm and you can see it across that entire organisation globally. That was the reason why we made the point around, as Mark has alluded to, and as Charlie has alluded in the past, around the Team Jersey that was also then just to then start dealing with how we improve things, how we improve that teamwork and all that type of stuff. Do not forget the objective, part of an organisational change improving culture and part of that was about breaking down the silos and one of the big things and one of the big complaints about the States in the past was the silo mentality across the organisation. You are not going to break into that without causing some disruption, and that is unsettling. So it needed to be done. I think we would all have liked it to be done slightly quicker, which I think is the point the chief executive made in the past because that reduces that time period on at least 2 levels, politics have played a part in that. But that is now ... we are now in that sort of ... we are starting to come out of it and we will see that organisation bedding down.

Senator K.L. Moore :

So to what extent has politics played a part in the delay of the roll out?

The Chief Minister:

There have been 2 phases, have there not? There has been one which is around the G.H.E. side of things, which is still just bedding down, and there is also the J.H.A. side which was a, I think you will recall, States debate around restructuring. So it has been politics at 2 levels. One was the Assembly level and one is Council of Ministers level and about Ministers saying: "We think G.H.E., for example, needs a bit of a tweak: but the other one on the J.H.A., if I recall correctly, was a States debate.

Senator K.L. Moore :

So as Chief Minister in charge of your Council of Ministers, do you take responsibility for that delay at G.H.E. then and could you have achieved that in a cleaner, neater and faster way?

The Chief Minister:

G.H.E. is a discussion, if you like, that was made by affected Ministers. As in, I am sure the Scrutiny process as well, it is a democracy around the Council of Ministers so there are views that we try and accommodate where we can and one phase is happening under the economic side, which is going through and then obviously the rest of it will come together quite shortly.

Senator K.L. Moore :

Sorry, I would just like to ask the Chief Minister one more question, if I may. If you recall, and we have touched on this already today, that when we last met in a hearing we were told that this process would have been finished by the end of last year. We are now into March 2020, this process, and we have all identified today that it is unacceptably delayed, so timing ...

The Chief Minister:

I do not think we have used the word "unacceptably delayed". We said it is delayed.

Senator K.L. Moore :

You have identified that it has been delayed and I think it has been said today that it is not acceptable that it has been so delayed, so what are you doing to focus on delivering, Chief Minister?

The Chief Minister:

I think you have got ... sorry, you are very happy to have this timeline if you wish which is showing that the organisation, as a whole, we are coming out of it and essentially we are aiming to get by far the bulk of it cleared between now and the start of quarter 2.

Assistant Chief Minister:

I think it would be better that we get it right rather than try and rush something that was not going to work through so it is better for everyone if we put a bit of a delay on just to make sure that we get it in the right place because getting it wrong, just for the sake of trying to hit a timeline, surely would be worse for the staff.

The Chief Minister:

That is important, that the politicians are satisfied that it is working.

Senator K.L. Moore : On your side of the table.

The Chief Minister:

Absolutely. I think is that not the point that is being made?

Senator K.L. Moore :

Fine. Thank you. Sorry to have kept you.

Chief Executive:

All I was going to say is that in the case of G.H.E. there is also the piece of work that was requested around the impact of regulation activity and that was quite a comprehensive piece of work that was done after discussions with the Minister and with law officers which was benchmarked against O.E. C.D . (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development) guidelines and that work, to be fair, took slightly longer than was ever expected because of the complexity of some of the changes in O.E. C.D . guidelines. That has been completed. The ramifications and implications of that meant that there has to be some careful thought as to how the organisation is structured to ensure the integrity of the functions are maintained in a way that is good for government and good governance. Now that piece of work was never factored into the original timeline and it took quite a long time. It was the right thing to do but when you go back to 2017, early 2018, it was not forming part of the raison d'être for the timelines that were originally put in place for G.H.E. The second bit was in G.H.E. there was obviously, and I think the Deputy knows this from your wearing another Scrutiny hat, there was always the recognition that there would be a transition around some of the Economy functions and what sat in the Office of the Chief Executive in a post-Brexit and pre-Brexit situation. Those arrangements meant that we were always looking at whether there would be a carveout from the G.H.E. structure for the Economy, which is relatively small, so it is not in huge numbers. It does not impact on those headcount figures that you quoted before but nonetheless that process has been now followed through and we are on with it, in that it is going through the due arrangements.

Senator K.L. Moore :  

I recall that Scrutiny hearing when the news was delivered quite publicly to the director general that Economy was going to be removed out of his department. Quite clearly, I do not recall exactly how long ago, but I seem to think that that was at least 6 months ago and it appears from what we have heard today that the target operating model for this new Economy Department is not yet clear.

Chief Executive:

No, it is clear. There is a clear timeline and there is an agreement. The reason why there was a delay between the original decision to go for that and then, for want of a better description, transitional arrangements back of Economy into the Office of the Chief Executive, was linked to the regulation review that was done at the same time. So it was deemed that we would wait in case there was any implication in that review that would impact further on our thinking for the Economy function. But the transition is now in place, there is a timeline and there is a paper and a process that will go through the normal set procedures.

Senator K.L. Moore :

So now that we are at this stage, do we have an idea of the level of savings that are being driven through by the target operating models that will be delivered by them?

Chief Executive:

I think it would be fair to say that we always said at the beginning that the level of savings from the target operating model itself is not huge because we had to grow the organisation in a couple of key areas. So if you look at the totality of your headcount it is going to go up in certain parts. The savings have been identified in the efficiencies plan for 2020 and they are in play and they will be delivered against the proposed target operating models. Moving forward, there will be further efficiencies that will come out that will be part of the 2021 to 2023 efficiencies plan that will come with the Government Plan refresh in the summer of 2020, which will talk about activity rather than organisational structures that will drive further efficiencies. So by way of example, we are looking at the whole way in which you look at demand management for services.

[14:45]

But it might affect 4 or 5 activities, whether it is in H.C.S. (Health and Community Services), whether it is in J.H.A., or whether it is in C.Y.P.E.S., where you are dealing with costs much earlier, which are cheaper than some of the costs that will happen if you go into the judicial system or the care system or if you are in a health environment which allows you only to get medical solutions because you have not dealt with the problems early enough. Those efficiencies, which will come out of redesigning our services, will create impacts on the target operating models going forward. So you will create more joint teams across the organisation or you will do things differently. But they will not be directly as a consequence of this round of target operating model changes. But what the model now does is it increases cross-government working and it has improved immeasurably the way in which we are dealing with a lot of these areas where there was previously, dare I say it, some fiefdom. So Customer Services is a good one and we are transferring some large chunks of activity into C.L.S. (Customer and Local Services) but not every aspect of that will transfer at one stage. Some will come later. So how you register your car has a customer component to it. But at the moment we have kept it in G.H.E. but we will eventually take some of that service piece at the front end of that equation once we get some of the technology in place that allows us to do that. Car parking is another area where eventually the customer piece will transfer into the C.L.S. function but it has not for the purposes now because we do not have all of the technology to join that together. So the process of the target operating models and efficiencies is ongoing and will continue over the next 3, 4 years as part of business as usual in designing and delivering new service models.

The Chief Minister:

I would say for me the principles behind the target operating model process has been about culture, silos and doing things differently. It does not, in itself, automatically lead to massive savings. You might see some somewhere, you might not. It is then the change in behaviour that comes out of that that starts driving some other things.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Can I just ask, sorry, when - and I think this is part of the problem with the public having an understanding - Chief Executive, you were appointed you made lots of claims about making lots of savings and yet we saw in the Government Plan that by 2023 we are going to be at £1 billion worth of spending, which is double what it was in 2011. Senator Moore said when she joined the States in 2011 the spending was £550 million and so we are going up to basically double that within a decade or more, just slightly more than a decade. How do you explain to the public that you are delivering savings and yet spending has doubled in 12 years? So in the course of this Government Plan it is going up by about £200 million. How do you explain that, just so the public can understand.

Chief Executive:

I will let the Chief Minister come back on the point but let me be very clear, I said that there would be saving coming out of the modernisation programme, which covers OneGov and all these sorts of issues that I have just been describing. I said at the time in that Scrutiny meeting there would be tens of millions and there is a £100 million savings target to meet in the Government Plan. That will come about by improvements, efficiencies and other appropriate mechanisms to either reduce cost, increase income in some areas because you have to do things properly, so costs recovery is a big area where the taxpayer subsidises lots of services for people on a universal basis without any understanding about whether they could and should in some instances pay for those services because they can. But those sorts of issues about the levels of efficiency, I made it very clear at the beginning, would not all be driven just by the organisational model. As the Chief Minister has made clear, the model is designed to do a number of things which facilitated change in approach, the nature of working, the behaviours and the culture of organisation and the leadership. It also going forward, when we look at pay in future, deals with things like levels of management, levels of management span and decision making being driven down into an organisation so you get better decisions being made at the right level. So I believe that there will be a very clear auditable trail about efficiencies over the 5-year period in which I originally outlined that. What then Government does with those efficiencies and how that works to support its fiscal policies is a matter for the administration of the day but also if the administration of the day is trying to drive out cost, not increase taxes and generally to make good expenditure commitments to meet its priorities, efficiencies will play its part in that equation. Whether this Government is responsible for the rise in the way that you said from 2011, it feels to me that it has been 3 or 4 Governments but where the efficiencies of the public service were in that period it felt as the chief executive, when I came in, that we had a bloated public service that had not changed and was doing things in a way that was very similar over a decade at a time when business and other institutions on this Island and elsewhere globally had been cutting its cloth and making changes and improving its efficiencies and effectiveness of its organisation. I think that is what we are doing. Technology will play a big part in that. You only have to see what the C. and A.G. has said about the changes in the financial transformation programme to see what we are doing that will, in effect, help taxpayers absolutely understand that they are getting better value for money.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

In a nutshell, you are doing efficiencies as chief executive, politicians are spending?

Chief Executive:

No, what I am saying is it is not a matter for public officials to determine what Ministers and parliamentarians want to do with the money that is saved.

The Chief Minister:

Like I remember the comment made at the time so I am slightly nervous about exchanges on numbers when I do not have them in front of me because I am going from memory, okay? Particularly as everything else goes on, it depends how often you go back to them. Revenue spend from memory is £923 million, it is when you bring in the capital that you are going to go above £1 billion, from memory. Or what you do with depreciation, for example.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

It is still very close to £1 billion.

The Chief Minister:

Well, really it is closer to £900 million than a £1 billion. £550 million, I do recall going back and looking at that, and there were a couple of anomalies around that that struck me at the time, I cannot remember what they were, okay, so I will say I have a question mark.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I accept it is not the exact amount, I am using it

The Chief Minister:

No, no, I am talking around yes. But what I will say is you have to look at a variety of areas. Number one is obviously inflation comes into that. Number 2, within all that, and I go back to what I call the blue and yellow grass, which we put up at a presentation at La Société before the

Government Plan, which was if you essentially took account of inflation relative to our spending plans they were not too dissimilar to the previous sets of plans that have come through. The increase was not if you take inflation or take out inflation it was not as big as people make out. The other 2 areas, I think, worth highlighting, to illustrate the difficulties we have had. We know, for example, on the technology side, it has been a core thing, there is a large chunk of money going to that because partially systems have not been invested in the past. Partially that was for reasons, you know, like we were coming out of the 2008 financial crisis and things like that. We have come to a point where we said: "We have to spend the money because (a) the systems are going to fall over or (b) it is the only way you are going to get to the savings in the future." We are at that middle point. Then the other one which I think is also worthwhile, not in 2011 but it was the case 2017- 2018, is I think I still call it the supplementation grant or supplementation, which is the amount that we, as the taxpayer, subsidise people's pensions by. Now at the end of this Government Plan, the present Government Plan period, it will go up to around £100 million a year . Certainly the previous under the M.T.F.P. (Medium Term Financial Plan) it was frozen at 65 for a number of years. Although we did not completely unfreeze it on day one as you know it will go back up to where it was mean to have been notionally and that will also exacerbate the increase in expenditure. So there are some quite chunky factors in there which I

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Also, as an aside, it suggests we need to get to grips with the pension fund.

The Chief Minister:

I am quite clear that I think there is a in fact there is, in the Government Plan itself, I think it is section 9 is the one I refer to, there are some pages in there about future pieces of work that were meant to be in 2020, zero-based budgeting was one of them and that has started. There is a piece on there about supplementation because that grant as a whole is only going north. At £100 million a year on £900 million or £1 billion it is a large chunk. But there are consequences to that. You have to be very, very careful and you have to understand it but there are some big chunky areas of work that we need to look at.

Senator K.L. Moore :

Going back to the line of questioning that we were following earlier, Chief Executive, you described cross-department working and improvements that you are seeing there. Could you just give us some examples of how that is working better and how that is delivering better to the public?

Chief Executive:

I think the first proper example of that was the development of the Government Plan and the way in which the delivery of that plan and the preparation and work behind it was done right across the public service. So it has been referred to - and I do not wish to suggest it was either good, bad or indifferent - that in the past you had some policy people and some finance people who sort of sat in a cupboard, worked through some principles, came to the Council of Ministers, things were done but it was in a very small tight grouping, whereas the way in which this was put together was much stronger in terms of cross-departmental working to support Ministers in their deliberations and the development of projects and initiatives that form part of the investment or prioritisation. Now, that then has manifest itself, I think, in 3 other big areas during 2019. The first was the development of the carbon neutral strategy which, in the past, would have just been, again, a single part of the organisation that has involved it has been led by S.P.P.P. working with colleagues from within G.H.E. but not confined to that. Also looking and working with finance colleagues and with other key personnel. That work has been done in a very different way, which has resulted in a far better engagement by the whole of the Council of Ministers as well because it is not just the Minister for the Environment who is leading that work. The way in which I think that that framework that was obviously approved last week by the Assembly has gained traction and got a lot of buy in has been because it is cross-departmental working, whether that is the roadshows that have been done, the policy development, the financing of it, the thinking about the impact of how you can develop projects, et cetera. Secondly, I think the Island Plan is another example which is no longer led just by the planners. It is a very different way of dealing with what has been quite a complex set of inputs. So whether that is migration, whether that is housing, whether that is land use or whether that is population, unpinned by the economic framework that we are out for at the moment, which is another piece of work which is cross-department, not just led by one department. These are very tangible areas where we are seeing policies, activity, legislation, et cetera, coming about which is not just being driven by a small part of the public service.

Senator K.L. Moore :

That is a really helpful example because just as you were talking 6 pence on a litre of fuel came to mind. One of my questions about delivery and how cross-departmental working is improving delivery for the public, because essentially that is why we are all here because we want to deliver for the public. If you go and talk to the man on the street what they remember about the Government Plan is that 6 pence on a litre of fuel was imposed. I think that is a political question to the Chief Minister whether he feels that this cross-departmental working is delivering what the public want to see when they feel, or many people who talk to us feel, that delivering 6 pence on a litre of fuel in the name of achieving carbon neutrality and doing other good things is virtually signalling that it has an inflationary impact and a negative impact on those people who struggle most with the cost of living in the Island?

[15:00]

The Chief Minister:

I think you put all those arguments to the Assembly at the time, or someone did and the Assembly went with the increase. To an extent, there is not much point rehashing the arguments here, they have been had, the decision has been made and the reason we did it was partially to fund the Assembly had made a decision previously which was to produce a carbon neutral strategy and that was a very quick response to say this is a way of putting a funding mechanism in and it is going we know it is going to get harder to start funding some initiatives that were going to go through and that was the purpose of that decision. It had been made clear that there will be times when, whether it is for behavioural change or other reasons that there may be some decisions have to be made that have that kind of outcome. But ultimately it was the decision made by the Assembly. If we stand back and look at the cross-department working side of things, yes, I do see what I would say a better outcome. I would say the organisation as a whole feels different and certainly a lot of briefings I get these days are feeling more co-ordinated.

Assistant Chief Minister:

I would also say that the man on the street would obviously say that at 6 pence a litre of fuel is bad but if you went to the schools and talked to the children who are the future of the Island and say that we are doing something to try and make the world that they are going to live in better they would have a different view.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

With respect, we are not doing anything. We are just putting that money in a fund which has no spending target at all at the moment, so to suggest it is doing something is incorrect.

Assistant Chief Minister:

We are putting a fund together so we can do things. So we can afford to it and

Deputy K.F. Morel : We have that on faith

Assistant Chief Minister:

if it was inflationary it also might make people think about other sustainable forms of transport rather than driving.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Make the poorer think first, that is what it does.

Assistant Chief Minister:

As I was saying, the children appreciate it.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

The children also do not pay their V.A.T. (Value Added Tax).

The Chief Minister:

You have 2 choices, you can say we are going to have a strategy and then you can come back sometime during 2020 and say: "This is how we are going to fund it" and nothing happens until 2021 or you can take some decisions, which we did, and put those in place for the Government Plan so the money is there. That means that you are now in the position that as those measures come through you can now fund them.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Absolutely, there is some money sitting there doing nothing at the moment.

The Chief Minister:

I think the point is that it is ready to carry on the States decision on carbon neutral.

Deputy K.F. Morel : Absolutely.

The Chief Minister: I am glad you agree.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I just wanted to ask, while talking about the target operating model, before we sign from there, there has been a lot concern among some Ministers about the political mismatch, so in terms of ministerial oversight of departments which have been merged. Concern because there is no clear line of political responsibility for clearly defined areas of departments, that there is no longer proper oversight of that. What are your thoughts on that and whether you have those similar concerns?

The Chief Minister:

The short answer is I do not have similar concerns. I know that there have been particularly one Minister has expressed some views, particularly around G.H.E., but having said all that they have also been quite complimentary about S.P.P.P. From that point of view I think part of it adjusting to a different way of working. The reason I was comfortable with it was that it is, as my understanding works, not dissimilar to other jurisdictions and that where political responsibility does shift - I am going to say sport sits under a department, it might report to a Minister one year and then the next Government comes in and says: "No, we are going to put it in Education and we will do a different ministry." So the reporting lines do change but the departments stay solid underneath, if that makes sense. The reporting lines change and that flexibility is built into system. I think that is what we have here but particularly, you know, going back to the point it was fundamentally about breaking down the silo mentality and delivering better service. Scott might be in a better position than me, to an extent, a newer person than me coming through, in terms of the feel. He was on P.A.C. (Public Accounts Committee) for quite some time as well. My take is that the organisation feels better and different, and a bit more agile, than

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Are you concerned, certainly it is a public is concern that is told to me very often, that what this is done is weaken democratic political oversight and strengthened officer power and influence within the civil service so that Jersey is now effectively run by the civil service and not by the politicians that were elected?

The Chief Minister:

I think you will find that comment is made ever since the ministerial system came in, which was approved before I started in 2005. What I am saying is that people say it and I am not saying I am convinced by it because I believe that when Ministers, provided they are doing their job properly, do express views and there is an issue around a particular officers do react accordingly.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

So you are dismissive of that view?

The Chief Minister:

I know people have that view, my experience to date is it is not there in reality, if that makes sense.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Do you think there is more the Ministers could do to try and dispel that disquiet?

The Chief Minister:

You also have to remember that certain Ministers have got experiences in different roles in the States pre-politics, if that makes sense, and you also have to remember that sometimes people lose sight of what is operational responsibility versus political responsibility.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Those lines are very blurred.

The Chief Minister:

They are sometimes but that is where people do have to be clear and also have to try and look forward to bringing the organisation into the modern 21st century rather than worrying about what it is was in the 20th century. We have to make sure the functionality is there and we have to make sure, as we have done, on the regulatory side that the right checks and balances are in place. I think that is where G.H.E. is settling down. Those concerns were expressed and they were expressed from day one in that structuring and that is why it has taken slightly longer to do but we are alive to that. Do you want to add to that?

Deputy K.F. Morel :

This was something you were concerned about when you were in Scrutiny.

Assistant Chief Minister:

Yes, and I have been on both sides of 2 different Governments. I have been in Scrutiny in the previous Government and I have done the same here. When I am now on this side I am seeing a lot more collaborative working and I have not seen evidence of these gaps from being on this side of it, that some Ministers feel that there are. They have not shown me any evidence that there are gaps in the reporting lines. But we are better without the silos. We are able to move in a much better direction with what is being done now.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Do you think it is a concern that Islanders lack faith in their political leaders in that respect? Because if they feel the Island is effectively being run by a bureaucracy rather than being run by the democratic the accountable people then it undermines faith in society as such.

Assistant Chief Minister:

I think it is a shame that there is different types of rhetoric being put out into public opinion about what is happening in this Island from a different political point of view and this Punch and Judy politics is confusing some people.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Do you say the public is confused?

Assistant Chief Minister:

I am saying that there are confusing messages going out.

The Chief Minister:

I will pull us back to what I hope is an objective measure, and I did dig it out some time before, if you go back to the Comptroller and Auditor General she was quite complimentary about a lot of the changes she is saying and that finally implementation of a load of her recommendations as the Privacy and A.G. that had not been implemented in the past. What I am trying to say is for me, if you are looking at what I call checks and balances and making sure that the right structure is in place, and it is all that boring stuff, I think there is a lot more progress being made and that is about getting it right and doing it properly, and that is ultimately in the interests of the public. We have to remember that is objective measure. If someone is coming along and saying: "Yes, I am seeing a lot of change" and, yes, there will always be issues where you can do things slightly better but the overall direction of travel is a major improvement. Perhaps "major" might be my word but the C. and A.G. was quite complimentary around it at the time. Because she does say: "I welcome in particular "

Senator K.L. Moore :

I think we will move on.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Back to me, I am afraid. In December last year the chief executive stated that measurable progress from the public sector would be available in 2020. When can we expect these metrics to be released? What will they look like and will Scrutiny be provided with the details on them before they are released?

The Chief Minister:

To an extent they have started to be released. The performance framework, which is obviously that is more about the Island and how it is doing and also builds on which is why I have this here. Obviously, as you will recall, in various pages in the Government Plan there are measures in place for how we are going to be assessing matters. So I will go to 77 which is change in value of average earnings allowing for inflation and then it is potential for householders and all sorts of things in that. I referred to the wrong section, but anyway. There is a range of measures in there at the high level and those were incorporated in the performance framework which was released in January which Senator Moore attended the briefing, I cannot remember if you 2 did or not, and if you have not had a briefing and want one we are always happy for you to have one. It was released to States Members as well and was made public. That is the high-level side. I think we have always accepted that the organisational detail will then come forward more in 2020 and Scrutiny can have whatever involvement it wishes to have on that. Always very welcome.

Chief Executive:

I will say a couple of further comments. Tom is leading on this work. In conjunction with the Government Plan, and obviously there were the departmental business plans, all of which have a series of measurements and K.P.I.s within those which will be what we will be judged on over 2020 and I am expecting those to be met through the accounting officers responsibilities where appropriate and obviously through departments. There is much more granular detail in those around specific parts of our service. Going back to the number of initiatives that sit within the changes that we are making, some of those, as we have said, are very specific. Team Jersey has a load of K.P.I.s attached to it which is part of a contract. Similarly we have got other initiatives where there will be, through their business plans, certain outcomes and, in some case, inputs and outputs because that will be appropriate. Then we have a range of other tools that we are using for example, external inspections where we are now being benchmarked, whether it is the police or it is the prison service, children's services or the Jersey Care Commission who are now developing their inspections regimes for residential care and for adult social care. So each of those will have a range of K.P.I.s that you would expecting to be delivered. Measurable mechanisms by which you will be judged and then benchmarking where appropriate against external comparable jurisdictions. We are rolling that out now in 2020 and I think, going back to the original proposals that were in the Government Plan, they form a hierarchy of activity that then starts to talk about how public services and the Government Plan are contributing to Island outcomes.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Just for clarity sake, is this the outcomes performance framework that you were talking about?

Chief Executive:

Yes, absolutely, and we are launching as the Chief Minister said, we have launched the first bit, we are doing the rest of it throughout 2020 but at the same time we have also published the K.P.I.s and  the  plans that  we  will  be  assessing  people  against, for  example,  for  their  performance appraisals, et cetera.

Assistant Chief Minister:

Deputy , they will be publicly available so Scrutiny can use them like as a benchmark as well the public too.

Chief Executive:

Yes, and I think that will give you a lot more tangible read across to activity that takes place in departments back to the Government Plan, back to the financial accounts, back to individual initiatives that will be, whether they are capital or revenue, key parts of the administration.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I think that you put your finger on it there and one of the problems is that we are 2 years in and everything seems so very intangible. We do not have many tangibles as we stand. In general, we have government performance.

Chief Executive:

Sorry, I think we said very clearly that we would launch it this year. We were very explicit that last year there would be some transition. P.A.C. have acknowledged that, that has been part of the discussions that have been had there. I think we are on target and there will be quite a bit I mean, it has been suggested that the business plans for the departments, which have been published this year, are very comprehensive. So I would suggest that they pretty detailed.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

With regards to the outcome performance framework, is this being developed or are these being developed in house or do you bring in an external third parties to do this in order to get an objective view on it?

Director General, Strategic Policy, Planning and Performance:

The Jersey performance framework, which was published at the start of the year.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Sorry, again, purely for clarity, Jersey performance framework, is that the same as the outcome performance framework that

Director General, Strategic Policy, Planning and Performance:

Yes, so the methodology, the name of the methodology is outcomes-based accountability and that is the methodology that is employed in Scotland and elsewhere, lots of different places that do this. So the first step in that is to produce kind of a national performance framework and that is what we have done. So we have published the Jersey performance framework, that contains the Island indicators, how the Island is doing.

[15:15]

The majority of that data is drawn from Statistics Jersey, so the statistical analysis is done independently overseen by the statistics user group as the regulator for official statistics in Jersey and then assembled into the Jersey performance framework so that we can see clearly for the first time how Jersey is doing across the piece.

The Chief Minister:

I think one of the key points there was the split between objective and subjective measures, if you want.

Director General, Strategic Policy, Planning and Performance:

Yes, and one of the unique things about the Jersey performance framework is that it has got a mix of quantitative and qualitative measures in there. We have survey data from the Jersey opinion lifestyle survey alongside data from other sources, which puts us ahead of just about every other jurisdiction so we are in a fairly small group in what we have achieved so far and we are in an even smaller group because we were able to put opinion and lifestyle survey data in there as well. That is a really big leap forward. It passed without an awful lot of comment but it is a huge step forward for the Island. Huge step forward. The next stage is then to build the service measures that shows how the public services are contributing to those Island indicators and that is the work that we are doing over this year. There are a lot of service measures that are out there already. Some of them are shown in the Government Plan but we want to improve the quality of those. We think that they can be more consistent, more robust and also multi-dimensional. A lot of the service measures at the moment perhaps only measure how much of something we do. They do not necessarily measure how well we do it, and they do not measure the impact of what we have done, so the objective for this year is to get all of those dimensions for the services so that we can see really clearly how Government services are contributing to how the Island is doing.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

At the same time the assessment of the government services and therefore departmental business plans, how successful they have been, will they enable us to hold director generals and chief executives to account?

Director General, Strategic Policy, Planning and Performance:

They will, because the framework that we have designed goes all the way through the organisation. So we have what they call the golden thread, so it starts with the Island indicators at the top, the outcomes that the Island is seeking to achieve, and then that works its way through into Government Plan, departmental operational business plans, and then ultimately individual performance goals as well. It goes all the way from top to bottom.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

But whereas an appraisal for an H.R. purpose would not be shared, I accept that and do not have an issue with that, understanding from our perspective whether any given director general has performed sufficiently in order to remain within the organisation, from a service delivery perspective, these are the sorts of things we will be able to see? Failing director generals or succeeding director generals?

Director General, Strategic Policy, Planning and Performance:

I think that should become much more transparent and much clearer through the routine publication of the departmental operational business plans. The director generals are responsible for taking forward the delivery of the objectives that are in their business plans and so yes, we should be able to see extremely clearly what is being delivered, what is being over-delivered, what is being under- delivered and why.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

The methodology of how these are being created, so rather than just sharing with us the K.P.I.s would you not be sharing with us, in Scrutiny, the methodologies, how they work and also how they were derived at? Naturally from our perspective we will always be concerned about measures which are developed in-house by people in a position to make sure they mirror them in the best light.

Director General, Strategic Policy, Planning and Performance:

That is our job as professionals, so we want a set of service measures that we have confidence in, so for myself and the director and the others ...

Deputy K.F. Morel :

That the rest of the Island has confidence, is where I think it is more important.

Director General, Strategic Policy, Planning and Performance:

Yes, but I suppose what I am saying is that the first level of assurance comes from our integrity. I am not going to tolerate having measures that are not truthful and honest. Those are my core values as a public servant, and so our job in our department is to create the framework and then to be able to provide the assurance to Scrutiny, to Ministers, to the chief executive and others, that this is robust and that this is giving a true picture of performance. A performance framework that does not tell you what is really happening is just not worth spending any effort on.

Deputy K.F. Morel : No, that is my concern.

Director General, Strategic Policy, Planning and Performance: Yes.

Chief Executive:

So going back to my earlier point, there is obviously then the validation of that process, so you are not marking your own homework, which is that external verification process that I touched on, and we are increasingly doing that so that there is some benchmarking data that does mean that we can ... so picking up Tom's point, this outcome framework is not universally used, but from where it is used, that is important. The other bit is, it fits with what Mark is bringing forward with the total reward arrangements, which means that we have a far greater link back to personal appraisals. I do not think we had previously a uniform approach to appraisals. Large parts of the organisation did no performance management at all. That was not embedded throughout the organisation from top to bottom, and therefore people do not know where they fit in and how they can be held accountable. So we had people who were doing things because that is the way they were always doing it, rather than does it meet the objectives set in the Government Plan? So the Chief Minister has made the point, this is about delivery and to hold people to account on delivery is a definite shift in the way in which the organisation has operated. Do not get me wrong, we have got some extremely good public servants, but we do also have a drift, sometimes, between the political ambitions of the administration of the day, the way in which public money is being targeted and the accountabilities of how the public service deliver that. That gap and that failure, picking up the point about the golden thread, is something that this process seeks to address. Yes, you should be holding people to account on that basis, both at an individual level, a departmental level and at a key chief officer level.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Can I just ask, and forgive me for my obtuseness in this, in regards to your position, you saw the appraisal in early 2019, 2018, undertaken by an academic, I imagine. Now, there were concerns about that, because there was a prior relationship between you and that academic, having worked together previously.

Chief Executive:

No, let us be clear. Not worked. They had been involved in an appraisal previously. That is very different, because of the integrity of the independence of that process, of which there are very clear regulations about doing that, so that is quite different from working with somebody and having a personal relationship.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Thank you for the explanation, however there were still concerns in the public mind about the independence of that appraisal, so will we be seeing a similar piece of work, but perhaps this time carried out by somebody else, in order to allay any public fears about the independence of it?

The Chief Minister:

There is a similar piece of work taking place. From my knowledge it is the first time it has been done on any chief executive, certainly the previous one, I do not know about the one before that. It is the first time this process has gone through and it is the same individual that is doing it, but do not forget it is done with input from a variety of, shall we say, commentators and people who deal with the chief executive and also from outside, which essentially I put together as do one or 2 other people. So there is an independence. It is not just one person.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Thank you, and do forgive my obtuseness but I had to ask. Do you believe that the key performance indicators mentioned in the Office of the Chief Executive's report, one was: "To be developed for the satisfaction of the Minister and the Assistant Ministers with service levels"? Could that risk creating a supplier-customer relationship between the Executive and the Assembly? So it is talking about the satisfaction that people have with Ministers and Assistant Ministers. That was the Office of the Chief Executive business plan, assessing the Ministers and the ministerial team. Are you concerned that that will create this kind of customer-supplier relationship between the Executive and the Assembly, we are satisfied or we are not satisfied, depending on the delivery that you provide as Ministers or Assistant Ministers?

Chief Executive:

Perhaps I could help. In the context of trying to get better engagement and in order to ensure that public servants are creating the right relationships at an executive and operational level, one of the things that we have been very clear about is to improve the level of engagement, both at ministerial level, whether that is Minister or Assistant Minister, Assembly and Scrutiny level. I think it is a really important part, if you follow the golden thread piece, in my objectives, is that that is a big bit. That is not to say that there is not challenge and people being held to account. We know very well that Scrutiny discharge that role very vigorously, but the fact of the matter is it is important that the public service works in the right way to support the political objectives of the Parliament and the administration of the day. So as we have gone through a lot of change and as we have a new Government.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

It is no longer a new Government.

Chief Executive:

Okay, it is now 2 years, but as we then had a new Assembly as well, it was important that there was an attempt to try to get good, strong working relationships at the right levels, which are not about personal but about professional relationships, so that there is greater levels of trust and also greater levels of understanding. For that, part of the objectives as you might say in dealing with business plans is that we need to be able to ensure that we get those good working relationships. There has been some comment as to whether that exists enough, so again there has been some challenge in the previous year, 2018 leading into 2019, that there is a distance. You have referenced in today's hearing about aspects of the relationship between public servants and politicians. You should never be in each other's pocket. That is completely inappropriate and unhealthy, but there has to be a strong working relationship to give confidence to taxpayers and Islanders that the Government machine works in the right way. Scrutiny has to have confidence that it can ask the right questions and do its job. The parliamentary Assembly function has to have confidence that it can get information, whether that is through questions or other arrangements. That is important. If you do not do that appropriately you do end up with a disconnect, and that from being the head of the public service is a really important point that we have to resolve. Now, how that is then judged, administrations will always have people where it is not about personalities, it is not about the politics, but it is about the operational piece, is something that has to be worked through with Ministers.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

How do you think that is going?

The Chief Minister:

In terms of a strong working relationship, I think it is very good.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

No, I am talking about in terms of the relationships between the Executive and the Assembly and Scrutiny.

The Chief Minister:

I would say overall the relationship between the Executive and the Assembly would seem to be pretty reasonable, however I know there are occasionally some blips, shall we say, where I think that means we need to talk to each other at a normal occasion. I would hope that the relationship with Scrutiny is reasonable but that is probably for you guys to judge more than me, I think. You are on the receiving end. I would say that those of us who were there where you are last time around, we did our very best to give a lot of tools to Scrutiny to do the job effectively. It is whether you feel you have got the tools and whether you are able to use them effectively.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I have one last question. What is the total of the efficiency savings that have been produced as a result of OneGov not simply through changes to departmental spending? Obviously we know what is planned, but where are we, as we stand?

The Chief Minister:

So this is the update as to where we are now?

Deputy K.F. Morel : Yes.

The Chief Minister:

I think it is going to be a Steve comment. Do you want to swap over the microphone briefly?

Group Director, Treasury and Exchequer:

We have a process set up to monitor the efficiencies with effect from the end of February and every month going forward. That will go to a project board and come back through E.M.C., come back through the Council of Ministers, on a regular monthly basis effectively from now. Sorry, was that the question?

Deputy K.F. Morel :

So going forward we will know but as of today we do not?

Group Director, Treasury and Exchequer:

As of today we know that there is £40 million out of the budget and the first monitoring report is at a meeting on Thursday, so I am sorry, I cannot talk to it until then. That is perfectly normal practice. We have been focusing on closing the accounts during January. We will go on to monitor the budget from the end of February, which is where we are.

Chief Executive:

I will say one thing though. In 2019 when we did the closing of the annual accounts at the time the M.T.F.P. was due to the way in which it was configured to deliver some efficiencies at the back end of its programme.

[15:30]

Through no fault of either the incoming Government or dare I say it the former Government by 2018 it became very apparent that those efficiencies and targets were not on target, and what we have done is we will have closed the accounts for 2019 to ensure that the books were balanced as part of that M.T.F.P. process in a way that meant that we had to deliver significant efficiencies and savings, because they were delineated in the previous M.T.F.P. That was dealt with through some of the changes that we started to deliver as a consequence of the modernising of public services. So by way of example Health was a good situation where it was back-loaded in the period from 2015 to 2019's M.T.F.P. period and it was not on any sense of anyone's measurement on target, but it came in. In fact Steve played a massive role in delivering that, but the rigour and the oversight in all of that came through as part of the changes that we were doing, because otherwise we would have felt we would have been in a deficit, which the administration would have had to have dealt with. So there are 2 bits to this. One is what is it that we are doing going forward as part of the Government Plan, but what was it also that we did to close the accounts in the appropriate way? We have done that and you will see that when the accounts are audited.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I look forward to the C. and A.G. verifying that.

Chief Executive:

The C. and A.G. is definitely verifying that, but most importantly so is the auditor, which is really quite important.

Group Director, Treasury and Exchequer:

The C. and A.G. and the auditors are getting together on Friday. The auditors are briefing the Minister for Treasury and Resources on Monday. We anticipate signature by the end of next week, subject to anything that comes out, which we are not foreseeing in the next few days, which will be 5 weeks earlier than it was the previous year.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

I am mindful of the time and we have still got a lot to get through. A freedom of information request published on 18th February 2020 showed that over 2,000 members of staff are taking time off work due to stress. That was in a 5-year period. Has the figure improved, or is it getting worse since the tenure of the new chief executive began?

The Chief Minister:

I think I will hand that over to Mark. That is definitely at the technical level.

Group Director, People and Corporate Services:

The freedom of information request focused specifically on certain services, not government as a whole. The data was caveated in terms of methodology, because as this panel is aware we have a number of systems where we collate data and not all of them were coming through on that. What we are seeing is a relatively stable report in terms of sickness absence, particularly around mental health and anxiety. We monitor actively where we are going through the T.O.M. processes, for example, any peaks within specific departments but so far as I can see and with poor data previously we seem to be fairly static in terms of the level of sickness absence.

The Connétable of St. Martin :  

What are you doing to address this issue?

Group Director, People and Corporate Services:

In key areas, particularly in front line areas, we have introduced mental health first-aiders and we are increasing the training this year. That is to look at key areas such as abuse, violence and difficult situations, difficult conversations. Specifically within Health there is a debrief and support mechanism for people who go through traumatic incidents, so those who may support families or who may be dealing with death through suicide. There is a specific intensive programme within Health to deal with that. That was one of our peak areas.

The Chief Minister:

There was also a written answer to Deputy Alves I think last Tuesday which gave a bit of a breakdown on a particular line which is related to it, and there was an increase but partially because it was felt it had been promoted more, and obviously quite a lot of issues were more personal than work-related but it was there, and the support so that is part of the support process.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Sorry, Mark, you said the numbers were roughly static. Do you see that as a positive or a negative because they should be going down?

Group Director, People and Corporate Services:

In terms of the data there is a negative, because as we introduce or improve our data there is not a trend analysis for us to see that. I think the key thing for us is identifying early whether our trend is upwards, particularly where there are key incidents, whether it is blue lights responding, whether it is going through organisational change. We have also started to work and report with AXA who have our confidential employee line, about any trends emerging there. They do not tell us what the type of trends are but we know and we are looking as part of our employee benefit package wider that financial concerns, family relationships, et cetera, are key personal matters that affect people in work, and we have a system in place to start promoting further support for employees, even for matters outside of work.

The Connétable of St. Martin :  

How does this figure compare with government organisations of a similar size?

Group Director, People and Corporate Services:

I would not say it concerns me hugely in terms of being out of kilter of large organisations.

The Connétable of St. Martin :  

You do not know what it is like in similar organisations?

Group Director, People and Corporate Services:

I would say it is similar to an organisation that is still maturing its approach to its employee support. We have had a well-being programme in place. It is still improving. We have got a lot of local initiatives particularly within the police and within Health. What we need to do is expand that across the whole of government.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

What focus are you placing on stress and other mental health concerns within the upcoming people strategy and are there relevant plans to improve the quality of the government as a working environment?

Group Director, People and Corporate Services:

Within the people strategy one of the key elements of that is what we are calling the employee experience, and that focuses very much on how people see and perceive their work. Stress is driven by a number of factors. So within the people strategy it is about the employee experience. We know that stress is driven by a number of factors. Some of it is about the culture at work, which we have had a number of conversations in this panel about. Some of it is about people not being sure about the work that they are doing, which is our performance framework. Others are about signposting people to specific incidents, so our family friendly policy that we are rolling out at the moment is designed to support working families as they have a lot to juggle. When people go through bereavement, when people have specific incidents, we have more support in place now. So the people strategy, there is a key part of that where people say their perceptions of working for the Government and there are specific questions around stress in the workplace and wider stress that we will be able to monitor.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Finally on this, do you believe that there is an adequate level of trust between the public and the Executive, or workers and the Executive?

Group Director, People and Corporate Services:

I think that is probably one for the Chief Minister and the chief executive.

The Chief Minister:

I am going for the political side. This again comes down to or partially from the survey I suspect in terms of if as I keep going back to the point, if we are going to have major organisational change people are going to feel unsettled and: "Why is this all happening? Why am I being forced to change?" That will cause some issues. This is purely anecdotal, so it is not evidential, but occasionally one gets some feedback where people are saying: "We are starting to see improvements in my particular area." Now, we will only know, one swallow does not make, but from the things like the staff survey and possibly even the next one, if that trend is going to improve. If they see it is improving then if there were any issues around the trust side that will go through. I will say if you go back to things like pay negotiations, things like that, I do not know if you want to get into that territory or not, but although it was hard I do get the impression that there was at least a respect on both sides, if that makes sense. There is a distinction. You can disagree but you can respect the other side of the argument and that is certainly the impression I have had. I would hope that is the case, that we try to play it straight. From the point of view of trust, there is a difference between trust and disagreement, I guess is what I am trying to say. You might want to touch on the ...

Chief Executive:

The only other thing I would say is that we have introduced now a much more comprehensive set of a range around complaints because I think we did not have a universal way of logging them. We certainly did not have a good way of looking at the lessons that were learned from a repeat number of complaints, the time which we dealt with them and indeed the information we gave back to people. That whole process will be another indicator if those complaints come down and the compliments go up, as well as various other survey work that we do. Engagement, big issue. The more engagement we do the better and more open we are about initiatives and activity. It is going to be hugely important for people to feel that they can have their say. Then I think there will be a variety of other mechanisms in which you will get feedback, so going back to the point you raised earlier, Deputy , about consultants, one of the things we are trying to do about activity is to get more feedback loops, so you get some sense of do people feel that this process has gone well or do you think that the outcome has been right, or whatever? We are doing a lot more of that work. The results of that need to be benchmarked, but at least we are being more open and transparent in respect of soliciting the views and thoughts particularly of stakeholders and Islanders.

The Chief Minister:

Part of that and it may take us to another area, I do not know if we skipped it or not, but it does take you into the comms side, about how communicating and what we are doing is working and things like that.

Senator K.L. Moore :

You mentioned the staff survey. When are we going to see the results of the next one?

The Chief Minister:

The survey is May and I think the results are June; is that correct?

Group Director, People and Corporate Services: The back end of June are the early results.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I was going to ask and this is for the Chief Minister, but with regard to the complaints, there has been some disquiet among the people who have complained to the complaints panel who have had their complaints upheld, and the ministerial responses have been very dismissive of those complaints having been upheld. What do you think can be done there? The public there feel like they have been vindicated because a totally independent board has found in their favour, but then a Minister just comes along and says: "We disagree completely and are not going to change"?

The Chief Minister:

I think there is a long and complicated answer on that one, given the time we have got. Firstly, this is not new. I know there were times in the past when I have seen quite a simple matter came through and the response came back in a different format, shall we say, disagreeing. The complaints process as you may or may not be aware is going through the next level, if that makes sense, is going through a whole structural review and that is about the decision to put an ombudsman in place and there is a whole load of stuff going in there. Part of this comes down to what does the complaints board or the ombudsman or whatever it is need greater resource and things like that. Part of it is, and the trouble is the difficulty is that I am trying to avoid going into individual cases ...

Senator K.L. Moore :

Sorry, I do apologise for interrupting you but when the complaints board are doing their work, producing findings, yet it is the Minister who is disagreeing, why would throwing more money at the situation assist? It is not going to help the complaints board.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Essentially is it not the change in ministerial attitude and dare I say it bureaucratic attitudes which draft these responses?

The Chief Minister:

I think there is a whole combination. I think there are individual cases and we are trying to establish what has happened here, and there will be other individual cases where sometimes not all the facts have been known, but I cannot go into the specific circumstances.

Deputy K.F. Morel : No, I am not asking.

The Chief Minister:

The resources bit is that as I understand it in terms of the investigatory work that the panel does and I am a great fan of the complaints board because we get some very, for want of a better expression, high value individuals who put their time in for free. As I said the States decision is, and it is the Legislation Advisory Panel that is working with it, that there is to be an ombudsman, so we have just got to see how that all comes together. The work, the investigatory work that is done, is mainly done through the Greffe as I understand by somebody who obviously has other work to do. I think they do it very well but the question is are there improvements in that process, whatever angle we go down, to assist in that area? That is my observation. You are right in terms of the ability for departments to accept complaints and to learn from all that type of point of view. I think we are still going down that process. I think the step that has come through on the feedback side is a very welcome one. At the level of the complaints board I do not think we are quite there yet.

Senator K.L. Moore :

I think what the Deputy is asking is what you are going to do about the current situation, because you have many times today referred to your Comptroller and Auditor General as a think piece on her departure, the previous one, and she also on departing said that we need to have a public sector ombudsman. The question now is about what has been going on currently, with the current structure, when complaints that are going to the complaints board are being considered thoroughly and to the best of the endeavours of the very high value people that you have acknowledged sit on that board. What are you doing about your Ministers who are disregarding or being seen to disregard very strongly held views of people on that panel?

The Chief Minister:

What I was trying to allude to is that there are particular circumstances in individual cases where I have looked into where certain people have not been satisfied and some have it would seem to me some valid causes, which we are pursuing, and some have it has been suggested, and I have not gone into the detail on it, where there are other factors that were not necessarily taken into account. I am trying to avoid going into individual matters in a public forum. I am very happy to sit down separately and go through it.

[15:45]

Chief Executive: Perhaps I could help.

Senator K.L. Moore :

Sorry, Chief Executive, but when you are talking about trust and confidence and that pact between Ministers who are elected to office and serving the public, when you have a public that feel aggrieved enough to go to a complaints panel and you are now saying: "Maybe have a quiet fireside chat with my Minister, maybe the process has not been adequate." It is not really going to help in terms of trust and confidence.

The Chief Minister:

I am saying in the specific performances of the complaints board I have got 2 different scenarios, both of which go into individual circumstances which I do not want to put into the public domain. What I am saying is that we have all accepted that the complaints process going forward because of this very matter does need to be addressed. The decision of the Assembly to date has been to put a public sector ombudsman in place. That is going to cost between £300,000 and £500,000 a year as I am sure you are aware and that will be a matter that the Legislation Advisory Panel are working on. The consultation document was released before half-term, so it was either the end of January or the beginning of February.

Senator K.L. Moore :

After you dragged your feet on that.

The Chief Minister:

The reason was that I was trying to establish, it was not me dragging my feet, there were 2 responses in there from 2 particular States groups, I should say, who had expressed, from my reading from the report, strong reservations about where the proposals were going. What I want to do is understand it, because if one automatically had, I do not know, 12 or 15 people against any proposal from the ombudsman then I would like to try and see what the issue is. One group has responded and the other group I am waiting for, so that is why we took the decision in the end to release it. It was not me dragging my feet. It was waiting for responses, when I had sought responses pre-Christmas. We do need to resolve it and we do need to have a complaints process in play at that level, which as you say does give confidence to the people who bring the complaints when they have been upheld.

Chief Executive:

I wonder whether I could also -- I think the Chief Minister has sold himself a bit short here. He has instigated also that there is a regular report back to C.o.M. (Council of Ministers) now of the complaints board's outcomes, which was never there before. Similarly with C. and A.G. reports, and trying to tally up those aspects, so he has introduced that as a way of trying to get some lessons learned from what comes out. Sometimes in complaints board work there are themes that you can see. Sometimes Ministers will have a view and there are, as the Chief Minister has said, a number of sides to that. To be fair, the Chief Minister has done that. It is not the easiest subject to discuss in the Council of Ministers, which I do not think has been done before.

The Chief Minister:

I would say that was my decision, not officer advice.

Chief Executive:

It was exactly your decision.

Senator K.L. Moore :  

We are going to move very quickly on to a simple question, I hope, which is when can we expect to see an update on the Employment of States of Jersey Employees (Jersey) Law?

The Chief Minister:

I will hand over to Tom who is basically in charge of that work, and it is essentially going through a similar process to the Public Finances (Jersey) Law, but we accept that it is being done.

Director General, Strategic Policy, Planning and Performance: The answer to the question is this year.

Senator K.L. Moore :

At what point this year? There are three-quarters left, I think.

Director General, Strategic Policy, Planning and Performance:

We had hoped to bring something to Council a little earlier this year than we will. We have had to rework the timetable to allow for doing the Governance of Regulators work and getting that done so that it did not hold up the G.H.E. work any longer. We have also had to do some work on redress and prescription periods that came along, which we felt was more pressing. We have prioritised those 2 and we have got one out of the way and the other one is well in hand now. Originally we thought that we might be able to get something back to Council by March. I think now that is looking much more likely to be before the summer, so we had hoped to get something June/July with a fair wind. Then once Council have given us a steer on some of the in-principle decisions then we will move to law drafting in the autumn and then it will come across to the Assembly hopefully before the end of the year.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Moving on to the accountability of the chief executive, which is a subject that concerns the public and the States Members alike, the previous Comptroller and Auditor General made comments in December 2019 criticising the hierarchical nature of public sector management. What is your response to concerns that the current system does not tackle the issue of hierarchy?

The Chief Minister:

I was going to try to go back to the exact quotes from the C. and A.G. but unfortunately I do not have those in front of me. In terms of the hierarchy of the system, you do have to have somebody at the top in terms of managing and operating the public sector and that is the chief executive. Do you want to elaborate a bit more on the question?

The Connétable of St. Martin : And yourself, maybe?

The Chief Minister:

I said about operating in terms of the public sector. That is an operational thing.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I think the thing is yes, you do have people at the top but it is the general sense that throughout the system it is stepped, and I am tier 1 therefore -- well, I am tier 6, therefore I am at the bottom. Going up there is a real sense of hierarchy.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Maybe it is the perception of the public and it may be your comms unit needs to do something with it.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Whereas other organisations are going to flatter structures, this organisation seems to be stuck in the idea that you just look up and the up people look down.

The Chief Minister:

I was trying to understand the question.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

It is comments that the previous Comptroller and Auditor General made, sorry, I have not got it with me, but it is criticising the hierarchical nature of the public sector management. It was that you have so many layers in the new structure.

The Chief Minister: The number of layers?

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Yes, the number of layers and also there is somebody sitting on the high.

Senator K.L. Moore : Vertical versus horizontal.

The Chief Minister:

I think we will hand over to the people who are doing the restructuring.

Chief Executive:

Part of what we are trying to do at the moment is we have reduced the number of management layers and we have reduced also the way in which if I was being honest the previous structure was probably reinforcing that sense of looking upwards. I think the Deputy just used rather than horizontally looking across the organisation and we are definitely doing more of that. Driving decision making down, so it is not partly seen as something that has to go through various parts of the organisation to get approved. Giving delegations and responsibility for activity across to director generals and to tier 2s and 3s, so I described earlier some of the work that has been done around the Government Plan, but we are doing it for the efficiencies. We have got from tiers 5 to tiers 2 working jointly on initiatives to ensure that we get service and user views as well as management views. We just had last week the top 200 or so managers coming together from right across the organisation, events that we had not had in the diary before I arrived, where you are looking at thematic issues, so it was all about Team Jersey and what departments are doing. We were getting feedback about how across the organisation joint working had established some progress in key parts of delivering that change. These are all examples where I think to quote you, Senator, it is going across the organisation rather than up and down. There is always going to be someone who has to make a tough decision and there is always going to be someone who has to be held to account. If you go back to the Deputy 's earlier question, he wants to know who is going to be accountable for K.P.I.s and the activity, whether it is the director general or I think you said the chief executive. You will expect that leadership to discharge those responsibilities, because that is what they are paid to do. The accountability piece is there. It is in law for the chief executive and it has to be discharged in a number of different ways. Operationally we are trying to create a much more, and  I think  I  have  said  this  before,  distributive  leadership  model.   That  is  where  using  the management structures that have been set up is important. I do not go to all the briefings with the Chief Minister. I do not do a ministerial match. I will go to quite a lot with the Deputy Chief Minister or quite a lot with AN Other Minister, but others will come forward and be briefed. You had briefings this morning. I was not at that. It is not as if I am marking the Chief Minister in all of that.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

I think it is not in the public perception at all that ... I think the public perceives that it is ...

Chief Executive:

It is interesting, because I talk to people quite a lot and a lot of people just informally come up and talk to me and they are not getting that. I tell you one thing ...

The Connétable of St. Martin : This is what we have had said to us.

Chief Executive:

Some of the feedback, I would be intrigued then, with Joe and Mary Public, some of the feedback is: "Keep going. This is what you have got to do." They are being really quite different to some of the letters.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Maybe it is because we are on the OneGov Scrutiny Panel.

Chief Executive: I understand that.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

The feedback we would get would be completely at odds.

The Chief Minister:

Obviously I do get people who stop me from time to time and say keep going as we are, because they want to see the changes that are coming through.

Chief Executive:

And they are feeding it, I think, in some areas.

Senator K.L. Moore :

We have been given examples of "ask the chief" and cite floor walks and to promote that hierarchical distinction. Perhaps have you considered more informal methods of engaging? Less formal methods of engaging?

Chief Executive:

Yes. I mean part of the problem is you have got bits of the organisation who have not seen the chief executive in 10 years. They formally would like the chief executive and senior members of the management team to come and visit. They are really up for that. I did one in a school last week and we had a variety of people, not just people from schools, but it was out-of-hours. It was deliberately done so that you could attract people who come from different walks of life in terms of their working practises. They are asking me to come but we also do things informally at different levels. So I will go and see organisations in the third sector, the independent sector. I do not necessarily just go and see staff, so stakeholder engagement. These are not the big organisations in Jersey. These are sometimes the shelter or the organisations that deal with drug abuse or where we have had problems with regard to domestic violence and going to see some of those in operation. That has not been done before, so not wishing to blow my trumpet, but it is part of what you try to do. There are all sorts of visits that take place. Floor walking happens. People just go in and see people. I get people coming into my floor regularly just to have a catch-up. I would be interested to see where the feedback on the hierarchical piece is. Unfortunately when you have got several thousand people you are always going to have someone that someone wants to hold to account and you have to take that responsibility.

Group Director, People and Corporate Services:

Chair, if I could add to that, because the Senator mentioned about the informal as well. Across the government and particularly with Team Jersey help on high performing teams we are encouraging team stand-up talks. So I did mine yesterday, a very informal opportunity to share communication. We have a new platform going in for the intranet that will allow staff to comment on issues. We run a number of staff focus groups as well, so the people strategy involved over 400 staff shaping that from the bottom up, so it did not come from: "Here is a framework. What do you think?" We started with people's views, and that is becoming more commonplace across the government and it is not just in the corporate centre but in other departments. As a relative newbie I do not think the chief executive sessions are as formal as they sound. It is not a grand visit. It is an opportunity for people to question the chief executive. He has had some very challenging questions. Some people do not hold back and I think that shows either some of the frustration but some of the confidence that people have that they can challenge more senior managers. I think the final point I will make is that we encourage senior managers to be much more visible. No senior manager sits in their office. We sit out on the main floor and we make sure that we attend the team meetings and that is encouraged across government. That is an informal approach.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Thank you. I think we have reached 4.00 p.m.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I just wanted to say apologies to both Deputy Wickenden and Chris (Head of Communications) at the back there, because we did have questions about the comms plan and technology.

Deputy S.M. Wickenden:

You can save that for next time.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Do not worry, Deputy Wickenden, we have a panel waiting.

Deputy S.M. Wickenden: I am ready.

The Connétable of St. Martin : Thank you very much for attending.

[15:59]