Transcript - EIA Scrutiny Panel - Government Plan 2022-25 - Minister for International Development - 29 October 2021

Economic and International Affairs Scrutiny Panel Government Plan 2022-2025

Witness: The Minister for International Development

Friday, 29th October 2021

Panel:

Deputy D. Johnson of St. Mary (Chair) Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin (Vice-Chair)

Witnesses:

Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville , The Minister for International Development Mr. E. Lewis , Head of Programme, Jersey Overseas Aid

[10:32]

Deputy D. Johnson of St. Mary (Chair):

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to this hearing of the Economic and International Affairs Scrutiny Panel. We are here today with the Minister and colleagues to review the Government Plan and combine it with our quarterly hearing. To begin with I will introduce the Scrutiny team, which constitutes myself, Deputy David Johnson of St. Mary , Chair.

Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin :

Deputy Steve Luce of St. Martin , Vice-Chair, and apologies this morning from Senator Steve Pallett, who is not well.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Would you like to introduce yourself and your colleague?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, certainly. Carolyn Labey , Minister for International Development, and Ed?

Head of Programme, Jersey Overseas Aid:

Ed Lewis , Head of Programme at Jersey Overseas Aid.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Thank you, and welcome both for coming. This is a hearing to review both the Government Plan and double-up as the quarterly public hearing as well. Can we start with the Jersey Overseas Aid contributions? The basic one is do you consider the linking of overseas aid to G.V.A. (Gross Value Added) to be sufficient to carry out the services required to enable Jersey to be considered a good global citizen?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, because the O.E. C.D . (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development) measure aid by G.V.A., so it is consistent with other nations. The fact that we are at 0.26 per cent this year enables us to measure ourselves with other countries, for example the U.K. (United Kingdom) 0.5 per cent, and some countries who achieve the target of 0.7 per cent, and some beyond. It is a good, universal measure.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

As the Deputy pointed out to me yesterday the U.K. Government froze their contribution for a while and they reckon they will hit their 0.7 per cent in 2025, I think.

The Minister for International Development:

In 2024 they hope to go back up to 0.7 per cent, because they dropped to 0.5 per cent during the pandemic.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

That is on the basis that they see their income increasing over the next few years. How do you see Jersey's position in that context?

The Minister for International Development:

Jersey is very stable and so hopefully, as it has done in recent years, not the last year, G.V.A. has gone up. The benefit of linking our budget with G.V.A. is if the economy shrinks then so does our budget. We would like to think it is based on what the jurisdiction, what Jersey, can afford.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

You mentioned earlier that we compare well with other providers. What is our current reputation in the global market that contributes to overseas aid? Are we well regarded?

The Minister for International Development:

We are certainly obtaining a reputation that is gathering pace. Certainly, the work that we are doing in Africa, and because we have chosen 3 specific themes that play to Jersey's strengths, so it is not just writing a cheque for grants, we feel that we can bring a value-added to the table. For example, financial inclusion, we have the financial infrastructure in Jersey International Finance Centre, dairy, obviously Jersey, with the Jersey herd, we are regarded as forerunners in the field of genetics and dairy, and the last theme is in conservation livelihoods, so we use Durrell as a source and resource in our projects.

Head of Programme, Jersey Overseas Aid:

Based on how we compare to other countries, the benchmark would be the O.E. C.D . average, which puts overseas development at 0.31 per cent, so our current contribution is at 0.26 per cent. While that is going in the right direction it is a little bit off where most developed countries would say that is the benchmark with which to achieve.

The Minister for International Development:

Yes. In 2015 we were 0.25 per cent, but from 2015 to 2019 our economy went up, but our financial contribution remained the same, so in percentage terms against G.V.A. our per cent went down, which is not a good look if we want to play on the international stage. We feel by fixing our budget to G.V.A. as I said before it enables a good benchmark to allow us to go up when the economy expands but also by going up by 0.01 per cent per annum we are going in the right direction to hopefully reach the O.E. C.D . average by 2030.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

In the numbers we have in the Government Plan we know that we are going from a £13.3 million budget in 2022 to a £16.7 million budget in 2025, which is a 25 per cent increase, yet the percentage of G.V.A. is going from 0.26 per cent to 0.3 per cent, which is only a 15 per cent increase. Is that because you expect the G.V.A. of the Island to increase?

The Minister for International Development: Yes.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Okay, so you are predicting there is going to be a good increase in G.V.A. of the Island between now and 2025?

The Minister for International Development:

A marginal increase. It does not take much to alter these figures when we are talking about such huge amounts, but yes, with the Fiscal Policy Panel we rely on advice from the economists and we hope that our economy will go up steadily, not in huge leaps, but steadily in that time.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

I appreciate why you link it to G.V.A. When did we start that link?

The Minister for International Development: In 2020.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Okay, and that was to redress what you thought was an inequitable balance, if our economy is doing well but it was not computing. I understand that.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I want to pursue that point a little bit further. If G.V.A. remains the same for the next 2 or 3 years, and we move up to 0.3 per cent, your budget in 2024 is going to be £15.2 million instead of £16.7 million. Is there a danger that you commit funds ahead and then cannot deliver?

The Minister for International Development:

No. We decide on our projects annually. We are going through a sifting process at the moment to decide on projects that will start next year, but those are our sustainable projects, which make up 50 per cent of our budget. We also allocate at the beginning of the year 30 per cent for humanitarian aid, which is emergencies, and 15 per cent for local charities and our outreach work. We have a budget in which we can make decisions at the beginning of the year as to how much we are going to allocate.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

So the emergency stuff is almost a contingency within your budget, which allows you to flex it?

The Minister for International Development:

I would not exactly describe it as contingency, but it does mean that we can manoeuvre things slightly, for example, if we do not spend as much in the sustainable grants we can give more to emergency. It works both ways.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

If you found yourselves with less money than you expected when you came to the day your long- term or your bigger projects would be safe, but you would have less money to spend at short notice on emergencies?

The Minister for International Development:

Maybe, or we could look at our local charities or our outreach work.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Do you have a prioritisation list of which one would fall away first?

The Minister for International Development:

I think it depends on the emergencies that are taking place in the world, so deciding where Jersey needs to be and when Jersey needs to give assistance.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I suppose that is quite a difficult decision to make between the long-term project like the cows in Rwanda, for example, where there are fantastic benefits over a longer period of time, but you have also emergencies, which are people in desperate need at very short notice.

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, people are dying, so Jersey has a moral obligation to assist.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

With the G.V.A. link, I understand why we choose that method, but is that commonplace among western countries?

The Minister for International Development: Yes, it is.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

They do not do what we used to do, and make decisions on the hoof according to what they have in that year?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, and using the financial amount, whereas if we set it with G.V.A. it allows us to make that decision in the cold light of day, based on our economy and what we feel is right, and what Jersey can afford and where we should be.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Sorry, I appreciate we do that. I just want to know if other nations did something similar?

The Minister for International Development: Yes, it is throughout the O.E. C.D .

Head of Programme, Jersey Overseas Aid:

That is the measure, if you look across the water and look at the U.K. and how they measure this.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

I know the U.K. does, thanks. That deals with that. Apart from that percentage, is there more you believe Jersey could or should do financially to provide overseas assistance? We will perhaps come on to the Emergency Fund in a minute, but are there any other ways? Do you have discussions with the Council of Ministers as to whether we are paying or pulling our full weight in the global context?

[10:45]

The Minister for International Development:

Obviously, discussions have come up around the Council of Ministers if we should be receiving refugees in Jersey, so those discussions come up. It is not necessarily an overseas aid issue, because overseas aid deals with our aid overseas, rather than receiving refugees here. However, we feel we can contribute to discussions. There are other funding mechanisms over here, for example, the Bailiff has a fund in environmental disasters, such as the earthquake in Nepal in 2015. He might feel that people over here want to give, they want to do something and they do not just want to sit around watching something on the news so he will instigate a fund, an emergency fund and Jersey Overseas Aid has in the past match funded such projects.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

You just mentioned accepting refugees on the Island. I thought that had been, in points raised by the Minister for External Relations, found for legal reasons not to be a possibility. Is that in fact an ongoing debate?

The Minister for International Development:

While there are displaced people in the world it is something that we should keep a current discussion happening about. The Minister for External Relations looked at it, as you rightly say, and the legal grounds suggest that they would need to have the exact same legal standing here as they would have in the U.K. They would need to be housed and they would need the same benefits as they would receive from the U.K. The decision so far has been that the work that Jersey Overseas Aid does in giving money to U.N.H.C.R. (United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees) who are the U.N. (United Nations) agency who deal with worldwide refugees, donations to them, keeping the refugees in camps near their homes. I have visited some of those camps in Zaatari and Lebanon and without exception they all want to go home. They do not want to come to the U.K. or Jersey or Calais or anywhere else. They all want to return home, so many of them in those camps are housed in tents, given food and educational programmes are set up.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Have you had problems with the migrants that are crossing the Channel at the moment, in that they all want to go home? They have travelled an awfully long way to get to the U.K. Are you saying that those people want to go home as well?

The Minister for International Development:

The refugees I have spoken to, for example near Syria and in Lebanon, want to go home. For those who arrive in Calais, the journeys they make are so horrendous and they are in hope of a better life somewhere. Some of them have relatives in the U.K.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

When moving to other areas where we have refugees, people being displaced and starving, how political are the decisions you make about where you allocate funds? I am thinking particularly of places such as Yemen, or more recently the problems, or far worse than problems, but the disasters that we see unfolding in Afghanistan now, would we ever consider putting money into Afghanistan to help people there, given that they have a regime there at the moment that we would never support?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, and we have already sent money, humanitarian aid money, into Afghanistan through N.G.O.s (non-governmental organisations), British Red Cross, the U.N. and Street Child.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

So the money that we have given to those N.G.O.s, do we give money to them anyway, or is that money we have given to them specifically to put into Afghanistan?

The Minister for International Development:

It is specifically to go into the humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Okay, so we have phoned them up and said: "We are going to send you some money and we want this going specifically to Afghanistan"?

The Minister for International Development: Yes, we have sent it to them this year.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Red Cross will have an enormous pot of money and they will make a decision as to where they allocate that money but are we saying: "No, we want this Jersey contribution to go specifically to this crisis or that crisis"?

The Minister for International Development: Yes.

The Deputy of St. Martin : Okay, thank you.

Head of Programme, Jersey Overseas Aid:

Can I just maybe clarify that we do not give any bilateral aid to any government? It is all to organisations or U.N. agencies. No government is in receipt of any money from Jersey Overseas Aid.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

The point I was trying to make is we would not in certain circumstances say to, let us say for example, Red Cross: "We are giving you some money but we do not want it going to this particular disaster."

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Just to clarify, I assume the likes of the Red Cross have their own sub-fund for the crisis of the day, as it were?

Head of Programme, Jersey Overseas Aid:

Yes, they have different appeals for different crises or emergencies. Our contribution will go to that and they will then distribute those as emergency relief as they see fit, given their expertise and their reach.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Concentrating on Afghanistan, or going back to it, what was our donation?

The Minister for International Development: It was £430,000.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

That was done a matter of weeks ago?

The Minister for International Development: Yes.

Head of Programme, Jersey Overseas Aid: It was £375,000.

The Minister for International Development: Sorry, £375,000.

Head of Programme, Jersey Overseas Aid:

Yes, split 3 ways, £150,000 to U.N.H.C.R., £100,000 to the British Red Cross and £125,000 to Street Child.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Essentially for the same area of the world?

Head of Programme, Jersey Overseas Aid: Yes, and neighbouring countries as well.

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, so U.N.H.C.R. are considering setting up refugee camps in neighbouring Iran and Pakistan, so we have donated to them. It is an ongoing situation, so they will have funding there to look after those fleeing the country.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Do you have an emergency fund?

The Minister for International Development: We do.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

You must see numerous demands on it, so there is not much left for future crises in the next

The Minister for International Development:

Well, as we come to the end of the year our aim is to get to zero, so if we have got money in the pot we are failing people somewhere.

The Deputy of St. Mary : Yes, I understand that.

The Minister for International Development:

We have a small amount of money left at the moment and Commissioners will be deciding in their December meeting whether to put more funding into Yemen or Afghanistan.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

I am sure there are many calls on your funds.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I guess you thought hard about the 3 different charities you put money into for Afghanistan, but can you explain why you chose the specific 3 and what the 3 do differently from each other?

Head of Programme, Jersey Overseas Aid:

We received a number of applications from various humanitarian partners. We then assessed them on the criteria of ability to deliver, the impact that they are likely to have and their experience in working in that country, a complex environment. We chose U.N.H.C.R. because of their speciality of refugees in impending crisis from fleeing citizens of Afghanistan within the country and also to its borders. That was an area we felt we could support. The Red Cross because of their reach within the country itself, being able to reach through their national societies hard to reach areas was another reason why we thought that was a good organisation to support and we have a longstanding relationship with the Red Cross and their ability as an organisation. The last one, Street Child, because they are addressing an issue that is perhaps going to become more prominent in the country, sadly, which is that of the plight of women and young girls. That project specifically targets that and provides them with a safe space and support and tries to prevent the real battle of exploitation from the Taliban. Refugees is something that will not go away, sadly, and will be there for a number of years. They are hard to reach locations and given the reach that the Red Cross have, and specifically targeting young girls and women because as you can see that is an area that everyone is concerned about.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Just to be clear, did they come to us or did we go to them?

The Minister for International Development:

When Commissioners decide to support an emergency, they can come to us to say: "Can you do something?" but Commissioners will make a decision that that is a humanitarian emergency that we feel we need to support, so then we with our agencies will ask them to put together a proposal of what Commissioners can support. Perhaps I should say going on your earlier question, Steve, about political decisions, the Commission is made up of 3 politicians and 3 non-States Members, so we feel that there is a balance. Obviously, the politicians on there have to consider value and the accountability to the taxpayer as well as the emergency, whereas the 3 non-States Commissioners can come at things from a completely different angle. For example, one of our Commissioners has spent 40 years working for the U.N., in fact in U.N.H.C.R., so she knows exactly how it works.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

In terms of the Assembly appointing, yes.

The Deputy of St. Mary :  

How many agencies do you have on your books?

The Minister for International Development:

Certainly not as many as we used to have. We have off the top of my head

Head of Programme, Jersey Overseas Aid: Humanitarian or ?

The Deputy of St. Mary :

No, the Minister mentioned you put out a letter to our agencies to say: "We want to support Afghanistan."

The Minister for International Development:

Ones that we know are working in the area, or they have expertise, for example Ed was explaining about the Red Cross, we know that they are in Afghanistan and they are on the ground there and U.N.H.C.R. because they deal with displaced people.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I am just trying to understand the decision-making process. The Commission has made a decision to put money into Afghanistan. Where do they get their information to come to the conclusions on that? Obviously, we read about it in the media, but we know well that we need to be more certain of information than just what comes out of the media. So I assume they say: "Have you seen the news about Afghanistan?" but where does the official information come from to say there is a proper crisis in Afghanistan? Obviously, you would not want to commit millions of pounds on the back of a report coming out of a newspaper.

The Minister for International Development:

Absolutely not, so all the agencies have people on the ground, so that is where we rely on their information.

Head of Programme, Jersey Overseas Aid:

The process is we will be contacted by agencies or we will contact them when we realise that the situation has got to a stage where we think we should contribute. We then get applications and proposals from each of these organisations that will set out the needs, how they are going to address them and the likely funding that they will require. They are then assessed by the professional officers in J.O.A. (Jersey Overseas Aid) and then an analysis and recommendation is presented to the Commissioners, who will then decide where the money should be allocated. The reports and the information coming to us are directly from the U.N. agencies who are feeding back from their country officers on the ground.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Okay, so the United Nations' information is what the Commissioners rely on before they make a decision as to where they are going to put money?

Head of Programme, Jersey Overseas Aid:

Absolutely, and other agencies who are feeding back as well.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Is that a weekly or a monthly update for Commissioners to read?

The Minister for International Development:

It is as often as we want it, because they are on the ground and so if we are funding them they will certainly give us reams and reams of information, if we want it.

Head of Programme, Jersey Overseas Aid:

We as an office are kept abreast of ongoing developments and emergencies pretty comprehensively. Every 3 months myself or my director, Simon, will be on the phone to Damascus listening in on an advisory board meeting by the U.N. on the situation there. We have focal points in New York and Geneva from the U.N. In fact, the Minister recently met a representative of the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. We have focal points for all these humanitarian agencies that we are able to contact and ask for real-time information at any point.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

If I ask the question, and the Minister will understand exactly, when in my time working in comms I was always complaining that the French media would concentrate on global issues and national issues, and you come back to Jersey where nothing is mentioned in the English national media at all, and vice-versa, where the English press would be concentrating on something major and the French press would not. I am conscious that we need to be aware that sometimes there could be a major problem happening somewhere that we do not know about. Similarly, we may get a report of something that is not much of a big story anyway. I wanted to be clear that Commissioners are getting independently validated and official information from a source that is global, rather than national or regional.

[11:00]

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, and we have mentioned the larger agencies and the more well-known ones, but as part of our emergency aid, our humanitarian aid, we have got pooled funding, so we are able to respond very quickly. One of the agencies that we pool fund is Start, who deal deliberately with lesser-known emergencies, so those that never or rarely appear on the news, but, none the less, are there and are real and sometimes equally if not worse than the ones that you hear about on the BBC or wherever.

The Deputy of St. Martin : Thank you. That is great.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Thank you for that. That is all very useful. Coming on to a different subject slightly, under the heading: "Heritage, Arts and Culture".

The Minister for International Development: Right, okay.

The Deputy of St. Mary : You sound surprised.

The Minister for International Development:

I am not heritage, arts and culture, but

The Deputy of St. Mary :

We know you have met with the Assistant Minister for Economic Development to consider recommendations of the Island Identity report. It appears an agreed investment of 1 per cent of something has been made in that area, so could you elaborate on that, please?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, the 1 per cent, again they are using a similar formula to what we have in Jersey Overseas Aid, whereas ours is 0.26 per cent the States decided to give 1 per cent of our G.V.A. to heritage, arts and culture, which I supported because heritage, arts and culture in some quarters could be seen as a nice-to-have, whereas I personally feel it is essential. If we are going to put the grants to those organisations on a more even keel then I think it is quite a good way of ensuring they receive adequate funds.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

To be precise, the 1 per cent allocation to this group, you are not claiming a part of it or able to benefit from that? Or are you getting funds over and above that?

The Minister for International Development:

No. Well, the Island Identity project is not directly receiving any money from that 1 per cent. We received a very small budget from the Chief Minister's budget, because this is an initiative that he set up and the Policy Development Board was something that I chaired and he wanted to advance Island Identify, so we have used that pot just to get a few things, like these things printed, the Policy Development Board's website on Island Identity set up and things like that. What we are hoping to rely on with the Island Identity project is throughout, since it was launched on 5th May, we have been going to various States Departments and the A.L.O.s (arm's-length organisations), Visit Jersey, Jersey Heritage, ArtHouse, to see how they can advance some of the aims in the Island Identity report. We do not have a budget to advance the aims, for example, Visit Jersey or Ports of Jersey, we were suggesting to them that they might want to think about the airport arrivals and departure. Take the arrivals, for example, instead of having big trust company and bank posters up throughout perhaps they could put more pictures and things up that enhanced the Island identity and maybe then get the finance houses to sponsor them. It is suggestions and recommendations to them but it is really then for Ports to take that forward; it is not something that we have the budget to do.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

So the basic question I have is the link between this 1 per cent and your office, you have to persuade them that your cause is part of heritage or art and so on and you should benefit by having an allocated part. Is that right?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, and when we have consulted with them, it has always been met favourably. Some of the aims and opportunities and ideas that we see have always been met in a very favourable manner as something they are going to consider and take forward. I do not expect it to be top of their agenda, but certainly on their agenda to move forward as and when they are able to do so.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

You mentioned the idea that Ports need to have more posters to portray Jersey life, but of course at the moment these banks pay for that privilege, so you are hoping the same banks will sponsor you instead?

The Minister for International Development:

Not sponsor us, but for example the footage that happens in the museum foyer, there is the most fantastic film that plays there about the Island and it has got fantastic scenes like that. We are suggesting that could be a far more invigorating experience as you wait for your luggage in the arrivals hall than looking at a trust company poster. Then that same trust company might be able to sponsor the film, for example. It is just different ideas.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

I am certainly not challenging you on the premise. So you are looking for funding, but also promotion of Jersey life?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes. We are not, but I would hope that when Ports eventually decide to revamp the arrivals as and when they do it, that it is something that they will consider. So they will be looking for the same sponsorship as they have there now, from the finance houses, but yes, things like that. Another suggestion we made to Economic Development, for example, was to ask them to see if Jersey Sport embracing all sport could consider their emblems, if they could indicate that they are a Jersey team. Some of them do and some of them less so, and they might want to consider some co-ordinated emblem, which Jersey sportspeople could be proud of and it would be obvious that they are a Jersey team, instantly recognisable.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

That would rather assume that those would have some form of Jersey emblem always, but maybe not.

The Minister for International Development:

They do tend to be different, so they are not instantly recognisable as Jersey.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Understood. There are probably intersport factions there as well, I can understand, but there we are.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Some years ago, Minister, I remember that there was a big initiative and I think it was Senator Ozouf that pushed it, to get the diaspora around the world to promote the Island. Is that part of what you would see as Island identity work?

The Minister for International Development:

Absolutely. It is one of the recommendations we have and the Jersey London Office were trying to network or locate young people at universities and then almost keep a trace on them, not for any other reason than to hear what they are doing. If some go to live in Australia they can feed back to a central hub and they can receive news about Jersey and be put in contact with fellow Jersey people in different jurisdictions.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Feeding off Steve's comment there, I remember going to the Jersey London Office and meeting a lady, about 3 years ago, who was saying that was their intention. Perhaps due to COVID and other reasons has that not died a death but is it on hold for the moment?

The Minister for International Development:

I do not think it has been advanced as well as it can be. Probably because of COVID they have not been able to do much with it. There is also the Jersey Society in London, which we have been in contact with. Maybe they can be brought together on this as well. Now, we have things like Facebook and Friends of Jersey, People Abroad, and so I should imagine that it could be quite an easy thing to do, far easier than it might have been.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

I happen to know that Jersey Reds are playing Richmond this weekend. In previous years with friends from the club I have been over there and it has been our away fixture. I was always surprised at the number of Jersey supporters there. It is near London, and so on, and things like that I would think probably can be built on, if there is a wider audience, and the Jersey London Office knows the wider audience.

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, that is something, but I have not yet been into the Jersey London Office to talk about this specifically, but certainly I will be. I know others who have.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Have you had any links with Visit Jersey over the summer? In the old days this would have been a Jersey tourism thing that could be linked up with, but are you talking to Visit Jersey about Jersey identity?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, we have spoken to them twice. They are very keen on the idea and they certainly have some fantastic videos that they use that others could use to promote the Island.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

With the Island Identity programme, can you give us a general update as to how we are going post- consultation?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes. We have been consulting since 5th May, and going to see departments, A.L.O.s. We have done a parish roadshow and as I say we have been very well received. What we have done, and I did have a list here somewhere, some of the things that we are doing, we are writing some material that will be uploaded on to our website that almost takes the same chapters as we have in the original report and as we have in this consultation document, so our constitution, the economy, citizenship and civic engagement, education, the parishes, language, heritage, arts, the environment and sport. It almost takes those headings and we have written about it in the Jersey context, and that material we are going to upload on our website. We have also had meetings with the curriculum teachers and the States Greffe who are looking at political education. We are hoping that teachers when they teach about civic engagement and the Island can use this material that we have got on our website. One thing that we have discovered is that when teachers are there to teach about our constitution there is almost a job of work to do to train the trainers. If they are from the U.K. they might not have studied the local constitution, so we hope to put this up there as a resource, a teaching resource tool for anyone who wants to use it. Indeed, for people who come to the Island we are going to encourage social security or C.L.S. (Customer and Local Services), as it is called now, when people go in to collect their social security card maybe they can be given a card of our website so they can look at it and learn about the Island's history, constitution, how they vote and that sort of thing. We are putting a resource up there, so we have commissioned the writing of those resources.

[11:15]

They are with the Bailiff at the moment, who wanted to go through it all because he is the defender of our constitution, so that part anyway, and he wanted to have a look at it, so it is with him and then we will hopefully put that up there as a teaching resource. Other things we are doing, we are working with different groups looking at inclusion, how the young people feel included in their Island, how the Polish feel included, and what the barriers are. So we are working with different sections of the community. We are going to have a conference that will hopefully engage those people up to the conference, and we will hear about the findings there and we will have some speakers. We are also working with schools, but we are also working with young people in the Youth Parliament and asking them questions about Island identity and what they see as the Island identity and what they can be proud of, how they will describe their Island when they are away at university or living in Australia. We are almost instigating an ambassador programme, so that the people who are representing the Island, civil servants when they travel, businesspeople, sportspeople, they know about their Island and can take not only gifts but some knowledge as to what their Island is about. It is a slow burn. We have various initiatives like that going. We have External Relations looking at the ambassador programme, so they are hoping to advance that.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

In all this how important is funding? Do you have the necessary funding to advance as quickly as you want?

The Minister for International Development:

No, not really. What I have been responsible for is to initiate the project, to write the Policy Development Board's report, write a consultation document and I will write a concluding document. We will have a website with all our findings and hopefully a resource. If it is to be advanced much further I think that there probably needs to be an Island identity champion working on this, but at the moment it is my secretary and myself.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Is that enough? Are you not the Island identity champion?

The Minister for International Development:

Well, as far as this project goes, yes, and we will advance it on to the agendas of departments, but then it is really down to them to move it forward. Now, if that does not happen that will be incredibly disappointing and then we might have to consider if we do employ somebody to specifically advance it.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

You obviously need someone at the head and at the moment it is you. Do you anticipate it being a separate project away from you ... not away from your department, but it warrants a separate head, does it?

The Minister for International Development:

I have done it so far and my secretary has been doing it but it will need at least another person if it is to be properly rolled out.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Do you think there is a place for a well-known personality to front this to help you, like sort of a Graeme Le Saux or Serena Guthrie or Alex Thompson or somebody like that?

The Minister for International Development:

We see them all as Island ambassadors but, yes, that is a good idea, maybe sort of setting up a cadre of those more well-known ambassadors to begin with. We see our overseas aid volunteers as the Island's ambassadors when they go working abroad. It is one of those projects; it is how big do you want it to be?

The Deputy of St. Mary :

My other question really is you say you go out to each individual department; I was thinking while you were talking that people like the Chamber of Commerce, et cetera, that they are not targets but people who will benefit from your approach. But would you see that being done through the Economic Department rather than yourselves?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, but we have in fact done it ourselves. We have been to see I.O.D. (Institute of Directors) and Chamber and my secretary has been invited to subsequent meetings since, so they are aware of the project and if they feel they want to know more or feel that we are missing in this particular area. The Jersey Farmers Union, for example, if they want resources for people that come and work over here, it is bringing it all together and asking those organisations what more they want in order to fulfil their ambitions.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

I have a question here about the next stage but the more you talk I wonder is there a next stage. Is it identified as a next stage or is it simply a rolling programme?

The Minister for International Development:

Well, it is a rolling programme. It is up to everyone, each individual, to advance it and companies to advance it. It is pride in the Island. There is a feeling that what we have in the Island is being lost, so what is it that is being lost and what do we need to enhance and what can we be proud of as Islanders? Also, the flipside of that is how others see us. When the international community are looking in at us, what do they see and what do we want them to see? What do we want to be proud of? We are proud of our dairy product in Africa, changing the lives of Africans through the Jersey cow, and Durrell and Madagascar; conservation livelihoods.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Going back to my question, is there a sort of focal point? Is there next stage? Let us accept that there is a rolling programme for ever, as it were, but is there an immediate stage you are aiming for?

The Minister for International Development:

I think we will hold this conference in November where the findings of working with these focus groups and the barriers to inclusion come to the fore and have some speakers, and then we will do a report on the findings and the project as a whole and how we finish up with the resources on the website, and hopefully the Jersey London office can carry forward with the diaspora. So that is where I will leave it, given my term of office. Hopefully, it will carry on but if it is to carry on with huge amounts of momentum I would suggest that it will need a resource.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

It is fair to assume that your report at that stage following that conference will make reference to future funding in some form as being necessary?

The Minister for International Development: Yes.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Are there any other projects you have in mind in the immediate future to benefit both the Island and overseas? Are there any further projects in mind other than those you have already identified?

The Minister for International Development:

Well, we are looking at projects that we are considering for next year. So we have had 44 applications in our specific themes, dairy, financial inclusion and conservation livelihoods. We are talking about the sustainable groundwork here. So we had 44 applications. Officers have gone through them with a fine tooth comb and commissioners narrowed them down to 15 this week. The next stage is officers and possibly one or 2 commissioners will go and visit the proposals and then commissioners will, based on the report and finding on the ground, then have to choose about 8 projects which we will choose to support to next year.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Is that in addition to the ongoing work in Rwanda?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, it is, and these will again be multi-year. Some of these will continue, some of the projects that we have already started.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Is Rwanda an annual ongoing one? Are we going to just continue to roll it out and hope to roll it out further?

The Minister for International Development:

In different ways. I do not know if you want to add to that?

Head of Programme, Jersey Overseas Aid:

The Rwanda programme, the flagship one, is in its second phase now which will finish early quarter 1 in 2022. So that is coming to an end but we have just started a new project, a breeding centre station in Rwanda, so a new project starts when this one phases out. All the learnings that we have gathered from that will feed into the next one and that will continue for 3 years, so there is another multi-year project that has just started now so there will be a continuation.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

So the list the commissioners are considering will be on top of the Rwanda work?

Head of Programme, Jersey Overseas Aid: Yes.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

You used the word "sustainable" in that. These projects which you are looking at and a decision will be made, will they almost by definition be onward rolling programmes as well?

Head of Programme, Jersey Overseas Aid:

Multi-year?

The Deputy of St. Mary : Yes.

Head of Programme, Jersey Overseas Aid:

Yes, there will be multi-year programmes that we support next year.

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, we have found going in for a year and coming out again we were not going to achieve as much as we would like.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

I do understand that; where I am coming from is that like Rwanda is an ongoing one, if 8 are selected now and they are going to be ongoing, does that limit the chance to take on further projects in future years because your money was spent on these projects?

Head of Programme, Jersey Overseas Aid:

We slimmed the budget; say 50 per cent of the budget that we have been allocated we will put towards these development projects on top of ones that are already existing. For example, if we have 4 projects in Rwanda this year, maybe 2 of them started last year and maybe 2 of them started 3 years ago. If we allocate 2 more projects next year the portfolio will be 7 projects, but none of that will be affected by us wanting to choose 3 projects in Rwanda this year rather than next year. So it will not make any difference.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

What I am really getting at I suppose is that the more projects you take on which are sustainable perhaps limits us to take on new ones in future years. You are saying that is not the case?

Head of Programme, Jersey Overseas Aid:

No, because we know our commitments every year for the projects to be supported in the past, so we know that the money we have available is set aside for starting new projects and in no way is that affected by our commitments.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

In the sustainability process are you anticipating that they will be sort of self-funding for the future, i.e. we will not be subsidising for ever and they will take on their own responsibility in due course?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, absolutely. In a lot of these projects we are training people, Rwandans, Ethiopians, Malawians, in the genetics and how to do things and then they will in turn train others and take it on.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

But in terms of training to with the Jersey cow projects, is that local people training or is that somebody else?

The Minister for International Development:

Initially, David Hambrook has gone down there and helped set up the training, but he will start off with a small cadre of people, local people, but we have sent our local people down there to initiate the training.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Thanks for educating us on what you are doing. Any more that you want to volunteer that we might have missed, as it were?

The Minister for International Development: No, I do not think so.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

That is fine then. Thank you both for your time and it has been interesting. I declare the meeting closed, thank you.

[11:30]