Transcript - EIA Scrutiny Panel - Public Hearing (Sports Assistant EDTSC Minister) - 5 July 2021

Economic and International Affairs Scrutiny Panel Sports

Witness: Assistant Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture

Monday, 5th July 2021

Panel:

Deputy D. Johnson of St. Mary (Chair) Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin Senator S.W. Pallett

Witnesses:

Deputy H.C. Raymond of Trinity , Assistant Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture

Mr. B. Harvey, Operations Director, Sports Division

Mr. P. Milbank, Sector Lead, Arts, Culture, Heritage and Sport

Mr.  D.  Houseago,  Group  Director,  Economy  and  Partnerships,  Infrastructure,  Housing  and Environment

Mr. A. Scate, Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment.

[14:04]

Deputy D. Johnson of St. Mary (Chair):

Good morning, everyone and welcome to this meeting of the Economic and International Affairs Scrutiny Panel to discuss sports. My apologies for the last start due to I.T. (information technology) technical problems. I will begin by usual introductions. Beginning with myself, Deputy David Johnson of St. Mary , chair.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

Senator Steve Pallett:

Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin : Deputy Steve Luce of St. Martin .

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Assistant Minister, welcome, and perhaps you would like to introduce yourself and your panel.

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

Yes, Assistant Minister in charge of sports. To the left of me is Daniel Houseago and to the right of me is Andrew Scate.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Thank you. Perhaps I should also start by saying we have a lot to get through so we are going to nag you to discipline yourselves. All right, I will begin with the £500,000 for sport refurbishments within R.105. R.105 states the sports division refurbishment has been deferred until 2022. Why is this and how was this agreed?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

As I mentioned in the Assembly last week I think, Andrew, if you would like to give more detail about it, I think it is easier, so we have the figures and show how it is not really affecting sport other than until next year.

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, so the deferral of elements of the capital programme have occurred this year as part of revising the cash flow to fund the Our Hospital Project in the short term, so effectively a lot of the projects that were within the wider £18 million that was identified in the Minister for Treasury and Resources' decision paper effectively were capital projects, which were slipping in time anyway. There are a number of reasons why some of our capital projects have slipped, mainly due to capacity, in terms of officers and their ability to get these jobs done in light of COVID because that has affected a lot of our projects. So these were naturally slipping in any case and so therefore we have freed up those monies within our budgets, which were surplus, because they were not being spent at this current time anyway for a host of other reasons.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

What does that precisely include then? Can you be more precise about the items?

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

So the £500,000 effectively comes under minor capital for the sports division, so it would have been money spent on a variety of replacement assets within sport, which effectively just got delayed and we will now be undertaking those works in 2022. We are not losing the delivery, it was just the fact that some of this expenditure was slipping in any case. I can defer in more detail to Barclay if you want the specifics in terms of what bits of money would have been spent, but effectively that money gets used to replace assets within sports division equipment or minor repairs, those sort of things.

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

Can I just confirm also that I was fully aware of what was going on because of my other role sitting on part of Health with regards to the hospital? So I knew what was happening, so I was much clearer than some of the other politicians that were in that position.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Thank you. The £500,000 includes an additional £164,000, how is that made up? Is that right?

Senator S.W. Pallett:

Yes, it is about detail; £336,000 is around J.C.G (Jersey College for Girls) and J.C.P. (Jersey College Prep), it's the other £164,000 you mentioned for cricket nets, I think, and sports pavilion.

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

Yes, I do not have that list in front of me, but again it was projects that the money was not being spent because literally well, it is just projects, frankly, that the money is not being spent because of delays so therefore if you can imagine the capital programming in years, we have got

Senator S.W. Pallett: I think what we have

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture: It is shifting right, effectively.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

I think what we would like is if we could have the list the up front.

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

Yes, if you want us to we can again just give the list of things that have not happened this year and when they have been retimetabled for delivery.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Thank you, yes. Right, you have given the reason for the deferral but how confident are you that the £500,000 will be available in 2022 and the projects will go ahead in that year?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

I agreed the principle of it because of what Andy Scate has just said. I am very confident because there would have to be some really ulterior motives as to why we should not get that money. It was agreed that we would put the money over to the hospital situation and that we would get it back next year. I can only say that as far as I can go at this present day, but you will find that my team would be extremely upset if it was taken away at the last minute. We are very confident that we will get all this money back and be able to do it.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

In the more general picture, what assurance can you give that there will not be other refurbishment projects sacrificed to meet the hospital or any other shortfall in States projects?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

That did come out, Mr. Chairman. Nobody has discussed that with me at all so I would take the view that we carry on as we are until ... I mean, if something disastrous happens next year then I think every budget is going to be affected so hopefully that will not happen and we will continue as promised.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

So you are not expecting any further raids on ...

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

Not in the present time. In fact I would also say, because we still have our own internal budget which keeps us going for next year, because we still have other things in the department we would still like to do which will come out of next year's budget on top of the money that we are getting back as well. It is not just a full stop and I cannot see, at the present time, anybody taking that money away.

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

The funding for the hospital and additional funding for the main hospital project is going to be subject to States debate later this year once the proposition is lodged. So subject to that proposition being lodged and then debated, that then provides the funding for the hospital project so there should not be a need to look at underspends in the capital programme. If I could just reiterate what Deputy Raymond has just said in terms of the capital programme is going to include elements for sport in 2022, 2023 and 2024 and ongoing. Effectively what will happen is our capital programme is shifted things right, if that makes sense, because it was not going to be spent this year, it cascades into future years effectively.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

Just to be clear, the £500,000 will show itself in the Government Plan at the end of this year?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture: Yes.

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, it will. We list the projects that we expect will be in the Government Plan. So what form that takes, we are just talking to Treasury about how we present that in the Government Plan because we have a lot of catch-up projects that we need to present but we need to be clear in the Government Plan about what the money is for and where it is going to be spent.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

We will finish that particular area. Can I pass you on to Deputy Luce please?

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Good afternoon, Minister. Could you give us a brief update, please, on the Active Places Strategy and whether that is progressing to plan?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture: I am just wondering who is best to deal with that.

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, the Active Places Strategy has been out to public consultation. We have had a good response back from that, a very positive response back. So the key parts of that are shown in that programme. The first key part is Le Rocquier School, which will be the first major project. Associated with that though is also the decant projects we've got around Fort Regent and how we can move those facilities out of Fort Regent into new projects. So the 2 sites which are becoming decant sites and in their own right becoming permanent sport sites up in Oakfield and Springfield, so they are well progressed. Planning application certainly is in, in Springfield. The planning application is due to be submitted on Oakfield. So we have deliveries on confidence for those projects for March and August next year. We do also expect the planning application to be prepared and submitted for the Le Rocquier scheme in 2022. They are, I guess, the key milestones in Inspiring Active Places. Where we are going beyond that, obviously it is a 10-year programme so we need to ensure that the Government Plan highlights the fact that this is an ongoing programme, both in this Government Plan and the next one, and probably the one after that, in the sense that this covers a 10-year period. But they are the immediate actions that we have underway at the moment.

[14:15]

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I have a brief outline of the sequencing there, thank you. Can I just ask what funds you have available in 2022, 2023, 2024 for this project?

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

So at the current time we have funds for the decant facilities, so we have funds for the Oakfield facility, both the sports hall there and the outdoor area, which is the 3G surfacing. We also have funds, given by fiscal stimulus, for the Springfield facility. We will have enough funds to progress the Le Rocquier scheme to its planning stage working with the Education Department, there, C.Y.P.E.S. (Children, Young People, Education and Skills). Thereafter we need to ensure that this Government Plan and future Government Plans have entries in under these Inspiring Active Places. We have some money so far but we do not have the full amount highlighted at this current stage.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Thank you. Into more specifics, we have seen recently in the media that some clubs, some sports organisations, are being asked to find alternative premises or alternative facilities, is that correct?

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

As part of the Fort Regent decant, certainly we are in discussions with all Fort Regent clubs and associations in terms of making sure they have a home to go to prior to us effectively asking them to leave the premises. As part of that, there have been quite extensive consultations with a number of sports clubs and associations to indicate where their new home will be once Fort Regent stops becoming a sport venue.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Thank you. So you have spoken each club then. What discussions have you had with the martial arts clubs specifically?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

There are 42 or 43 clubs that we have spoken to. As you probably know, Steve, I have been in contact with the martial arts group. I have a further meeting on Wednesday night with John Dray(?) who is heading up one of them. One of the things that does cause a slight problem with the martial arts is the flooring, you cannot just move flooring about. That is in discussion with most of the people

that are looking at how we can look after them. One would be silly not to say that there is an issue with the flooring and the way they have been able to have the use of their own room at Fort Regent. Discussions are ongoing and it is going to be some time before we ask them to leave physically because of what has happened with Fort Regent with the COVID situation. As far as I am concerned, we are in contact and also the team that Andrew is with and with Dave Curtis , they are talking too. We are fairly confident that we will be able to help them out. It will be an ongoing discussion, there is no question on it.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Okay, I think I take from that you are talking to them, they are not particularly happy and at the moment you do not have anywhere specific for them to go?

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, so we have specific plans in terms of locations for martial arts. They are being provided for in a combination of locations, whether it is Springfield, Oakfield, Langford, Haute Vallée, Les Quennevais, so there is a number of venues where those conversations have led to solutions for the clubs. I think the debating point and the point of difference for some of them and us is around exclusive use of facilities as opposed to having space in a shared facility. We are confident as a team that there is a home for these activities to take place within but it does come down to actually exclusive use of that home and what we can and cannot do in that regard.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Okay, thank you for that answer, that is a bit clearer. I will hand over to Senator Pallett now for the next section.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

I want to talk in a little bit more detail about the fiscal stimulus. I wonder if you could just talk us through the fiscal stimulus process in regards to how you see it and how it is being played out?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

Just before you go into that, Andrew, do you want specific sports because if we look at the fiscal stimulus programme there are many sports that can move fairly quickly and there are some, because of the planning conventions and everything with it?

Senator S.W. Pallett:

This section is more around the actual process of the fiscal stimulus.

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

The process effectively has been an open invite to participate in fiscal stimulus via Treasury processes. So there was a fiscal stimulus fund administrator and a technical team there administering expressions of interest so expressions of interest came in. There were conversations with the sponsoring departments, where departments are happy to sponsor bids. Infrastructure, Housing and Environment are a sponsoring department, currently with 16 fiscal stimulus bids; 7 of which are sport-related. My approach around that has been to sponsor projects. If the community and associations have come in with bids, and I think it is worthy of a sponsorship part, it then allows you to have a conversation, if need be, around the details of their bids and what they are trying to achieve and are helped through the process. It has been, to a degree, quite lengthy time-wise, but there have had to have been quite a lot of conversations to take certain expressions of interest into things which are more translatable. There has been quite a bit of clarification required and then approval process that have then had to take place with Scrutiny and Treasury, et cetera. It has been quite a period of time for that to take place, mainly due to the transparency we want to follow really. We have now ended up with the bids approved. At that point, we then had to get into more details with those organisations as to what agreements they need to put in place, whether it be lease changes and especially the main one being a funding agreement with the Government, which gives them the rules of the road as to this is what you are going to get, these are the time constraints, these are the deliverables, this is the oversight of the project, that sort of thing. To label that to be a bit speedier from an I.H.E. (Infrastructure, Housing and Environment) perspective, we have brought in an additional resource, with the department, to help us do that, because it is additional work and also to help the clubs through the process.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

You mentioned you had 7 sports bids. I presume that is 7 sports bids approved. Were there more than that that you put forward?

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes. The process, effectively, was that the bids came forward from the third parties. They got put in. Then we, as a department, were asked whether we would sponsor them. There were other bids that have not made it through to the final stages. I believe that that should be shown on the decision- making, which ones got approved and which ones did not get approved. Yes, we have some that got a tick and some that got a cross.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

Would not P.128 reduce the fiscal stimulus proposition? Under the description of time limits, it is clearly stated, I read it again today: "All projects will be required to have realistic and credible plans to deliver and complete by 31st December 2021" because it is a fiscal stimulus. Will all approved bids meet the terms of P.128?

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

The quick answer to that timescale is no. The conversations we are having with Treasury is around the timeliness of delivery. Some will, but some will not. Those which we think will not, we are in conversation with the Fiscal Stimulus Oversight Group to flag those projects as to when they will be delivering, whether it be ... for instance, we have one of those projects as ending in March of next year, so we are keeping the oversight group aware of what those time delays are. The honest answer, in terms of the process, it has taken a little longer than anticipated to get the applications through the process to be approved, a little longer to get the money out of the departments. We have had to put in funding agreements as well around some of these bids. So in terms of the actual ability to start spending the money is really only starting now. So it is June onwards that we have really effectively gone into this with cash in hand, so to speak.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

In terms of monitoring, how is that being done to ensure they are meeting the criteria? What is the monitoring process you have put in place to ensure that you can deliver these projects?

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Each project varies. There are some projects within this that are government projects. We are running them as a department, so we have project resource identified against those projects. For the projects which are external to us, they are being led by that community organisation. Wrapped around this, every single fiscal stimulus project has an identified officer against it who will be monitoring officer. We brought in a couple of extra resources to help that dialogue with clubs and associations, especially related to sport, so that they have a pair of hands to go and speak to, single point of contact within I.H.E. There is also a role there for us to go and see what is being built and making sure that the money is being spent on the right things. There is a lot of paperwork chasing with the department and there is practical stuff on the ground as well.

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

It is not just the building, as you would appreciate, the situation is such that we have to create new leases and everything for some of the sports and make sure they are secure for the work to be carried out. Not mentioning any particular sport, but there are some complicated issues that we have to get round, not just the building site. Hopefully with the department, because of the way it has come under, and because I sit on Infrastructure as well, we have been keeping very much a multiple-eye on that. It is an important factor to make sure we get the leases correct.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

The director general mentioned time constraints. The projects that are not going to be completed by 31st December 2021, will they be removed as an approved bid? If not, why not?

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

It is open to fiscal stimulus groups still to remove money if they are unlikely to deliver for an improper reason, I put it that way. There are a couple of bids that we are involved with as a department, which are going to deliver in 2022 not 2021. We are keeping the fiscal oversight group aware of that and we have an extension of time on those projects accordingly. There are some unknown elements in all constructions projects. You are lining up labour, you are lining up materials, you are ready to go and then there are always some uncertainties. At the moment, we are expecting, certainly the vast majority, to be delivered in 2021. The bigger ones, we have Springfield and Oakfield, for instance, as 2 projects, they will go into 2022.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

There is nothing in this condition around a statute of time. This is one really that is to the Assistant Minister. Why is your department not abiding by the terms of P.128 as agreed by States Members? This was agreed by States Members. No mention of an extension of time. It is supposed to be a short, sharp fiscal stimulus and we are now hearing projects will not be completed until potentially August.

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

The  biggest  problem  is  that  we  could  not  do  it  straight  away.   The  situation  is  there  were complications in the sense of planning, as I said, and making sure that everything was in play. I suppose you could argue that we should have looked at it a lot closer, in the sense of making sure that the ones that were definitely going to get through could get through. We are still dependent on certain aspects of other departments that will make this work. We can push the departments if there is a further application coming in from other things and from other stimulus situations. Even in my own Parish of Trinity , there are about 6 different fiscal stimulus situations going on where they have money and virtually all of them include building. Of course, that has caused the complication of making sure that we can do it by the end of the year. I appreciate what was said in the document that you have just read out.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

Just to finish this section off, we are in a position here where clearly we have a States decision that clearly sets out some parameters and the biggest issue here now is, and I would like your view of it, that some of these projects are severely at risk because of not being able to meet clearly set out criteria through P.128.

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

I would have to take that, Senator, because I do not think we looked at the complications of some of the applications when they came in initially. That has caused the bigger problem.

Senator S.W. Pallett: Whose fault is that?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

Well, you could blame the politicians across the board, because they set up the document initially or the Government set out the document initially. I looked at it very much from a very narrow point of view, in the sense that I was just looking at the sporting applications. As I said, if you look at what was going on in different Parishes with regards to different stimulus bidders, there was no doubt there was competition with the departments, from other departments, Health and Education. That is what has caused the problem. We did not look at it overall. Yes, it comes back to the politicians that set this up did not perceive ... the problem is exactly the same: do we have enough builders on the Island to be able to carry out doing the work that it is being suggest is going to happen?

[14:30]

That is not in the document. You have to look at all these things now. There is an issue that we have to make sure that the important projects go through. As you know, I will push forward as much as I can and, with the team around us, that we will make sure that we will keep going as quickly as possible with regards to sport. That is going to upset some other departments as well, without any doubt at all.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

Just thinking of time, I am going to hand over to the chair.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Are you saying, Deputy , then that you perhaps should have waited a while before you launched the fiscal stimulus package to get everything sorted?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

As you will appreciate, Chair, I am just one politician involved in one particular aspect of the fiscal stimulus programme. I was just looking at our own and thinking: "This is great for sport and this is the way we should be going." What I did not look at was the other departments that were putting in applications as well. To some degree, we are almost in competition, are we not, which is a bit of a shame; that is the unfortunate bit?

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, the proposition of fiscal stimulus was launched for exactly the right reasons. It was oversubscribed. We had a lot more applications than possibly expected. It took a while longer to get through those applications into a grant award, to get them approved, assessed, et cetera. The front end of that has been a bit of a victim of its own success. We have had a lot come in. It has taken a lot longer than anticipated. The process goes into a decision and it has then taken a little longer for us to get the money. Invariably a decent-sized construction project is not going to be delivered in 6 months, so we are going to need and we are keeping that dialogue very live back to Treasury as to whether these projects continue or not. At the moment we are being asked to keep Treasury informed. The reasons for doing the projects are still valid and reasonable. Delivery confidence is still high, but the timescales will have to extend.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

The final word is just to mention the construction-related projects and the need to be sure that the workforce was there. It is a case that a lot of the fiscal stimulus went in that direction, so that was inevitable, was it not?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

Yes, but you think about things after the event rather than before the event. We should have been thinking of that before the event.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

I agree with that, thank you.

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture: I do not have an issue with that at all, purely on the numbers that went through.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

Just before we go on to Dave's question, at what point does it turn from being a fiscal stimulus to propping up the Government Plan? There is a clear waning in what fiscal stimulus is supposed to mean.

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

I can answer to the projects that we submitted ourselves. As a department, we have seen fiscal stimulus as a funding route separate from the Government Plan. Where it was available, it will provide stimulus. There is a degree of it does deliver against Government priorities and it is stimulating as well. You could probably tick both boxes.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Later on I have a few questions on the internal structure of Jersey Sport, but one quick one now, if I may. The relationship between the Department of Jersey Sport and charitable organisations, can you provide a breakdown of the structure between those bodies, how they interlink?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture: Between sport and charitable?

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Well, the Department of Jersey Sport, in particular. Sport as an independent body.

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture: Jersey Sport Limited, the separate body?

The Deputy of St. Martin :: Yes.

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

That was set up to do a specific job. If you look at their brief, it is pretty well detailed as to what they were doing.

The Deputy of St. Martin : What was the specific job?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

The specific job was based on the 3 situations of health. It did not matter what age and that they were there to help people, to try and put a barrier up with regards to people going into hospital, making sure people were healthy, wealthy and wise, I suppose, to some degree. That was really how they were set up. They set up with their departments, as the previous Senator will know, in 2016, 2017. It was all drafted out as to what they would do and that was passed. They then set up an independent board. I make no bones about this, in the sense that I did find it difficult at some stage with regards to how we were going to answer questions and not just now, but previously. As a separate entity, we had no discussion on those points. The simple reason was because it was a separate limited company, like Ports and Harbours or something like that. What we are trying now to do is put everything back together. Again, the previous Minister for Sport was trying to pull everybody together to make sure that we were all working from the same basis. That was to really look after the welfare of the Island. All of us would agree, sport did not come up on anybody's list at the top. It was very much health, education, infrastructure and everything else. What we are trying to do now is to say how important sport is to the general public. The one factor that really makes me just a little bit concerned is that no sport on this Island can do without its volunteers. Go back to the charities and it is exactly the same. This Island is run by volunteers. That is why I do not want to see there is no question of it, that sport must have its volunteers and it must have them being able to carry on. Sometimes, and I flagged this up and they know where I am coming from, we make it very difficult for people to join up because of the implications of what they should and should not do. Especially if you look at most of the volunteers, they tend to be people who have been in sport and have come out of sport and want to put something back, exactly the same as charities.

Group Director, Economy and Partnerships, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment: Thank you. It might be just worth taking the opportunity to be crystal clear about the relationship between I.H.E., Economy, Jersey Sport and the sport portfolio more broadly. Effectively, sports facilities, in the context of infrastructure, sits within Andy Scates' team and it nestles in there quite nicely. Of course, you do have other infrastructure being managed through that department. So facilities sits with I.H.E. The relationship with Jersey Sport sits with Economy. That was due to change. There was a feeling in the previous ministerial team that all sport should sit together for ease of management, but the new ministerial team believe that the relationship with Jersey Sport, in particular, should stay as an economic function, which is the current case at the moment. We take responsibility in Economy for the relationship with Jersey Sport. The way Jersey Sport is structured, as you may or may not be aware, is it is a trust company that controls a limited company that is the charity called Jersey Sport. So that is how it is ultimately structured. So Jersey Sport have a grant through us in Economy that we monitor on a quarterly basis. We also have an enforcer and trustees around the trust company itself that meet on a regular basis. That is the basic relationship between the 2 departments, Jersey Sport and the facilities.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

From what you just said then the purpose of Jersey Sport has not changed since it was first incorporated?

Group Director, Economy and Partnerships, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment: No. It is a requirement of trust to make sure it follows ...

The Deputy of St. Mary :

As I say, I have got involved with the trust at times, so I will leave that for a moment. Deputy Luce , on to the next section, please.

Thank you, Chair. I just want to go back to Fort Regent, if I can, and ask the Minister for a bit more of a precise timeline on the decant of Fort Regent, thank you.

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

Thank you, Steve. I have a slight problem, because, as you know, I am Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services, so I know what is going on with regard to the COVID-19 implications and boosters and everything else. We are having to almost run on a daily basis at the present, because Health has not decided whether they are going to continue and whether boosters will come, and if they do come in the latter part of this year then we may well find that January, February, March, April, May next year the Fort will still be in use because of the COVID-19 and booster implications. We keep in touch. In fairness, because I sit on the other board, they keep me informed. It is a difficult one. As you rightly say, it is very difficult then to say to the tenants in the Fort: "Well, we want you out next week or next year." That is one of the essential things that we must show. With Andy's team, this is what we are trying to put together. I do accept that there is a problem there because of the use. The other thing that is slightly worrying me as well is that there have to be some infrastructure changes with regards to the Fort itself, because it does need looking after and we have not been able to get people in there to make sure that it is safe and sound for going on for use before we use it totally as a different entity.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Can I just ask if you have given that information that you have just given to me specific to each of the clubs who are resident at the Fort at the moment?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture: As far as I am concerned we have.

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes. We have met and our consultancy have met all of the organisations that are currently at the Fort. We are expecting the decant to take place if I say summer next year, because it will be in stages. But we are expecting the Springfield facility to be open in April of next year and we expect the Oakfield facility to be fully functioning by August of next year. So as a result, the decant of those clubs and associations will take place in the first half of next year. The main issue we have at the moment is just planning for current Fort use. We are working with the Health team in terms of how long they may well need Fort Regent to be used as a vaccination centre. That is likely to take us through the rest of 2021. There, invariably, we will not be decanting sports until after that, especially until Springfield and Oakfield are completed and ready to open.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Thank you, Andy. Can I just ask 2 very quick questions then? Have any sports relocated from the Fort recently? I am certainly aware that some clubs are taking the decision to locate to other places at their own steam, so to speak. Not all of the clubs are going into Oakfield or to Springfield. For instance, the bowling club is locating to the Indoor Bowling Centre. If it helps, we can provide a detailed list of the current clubs and associations and their anticipated destination, if that helps.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I was thinking more so of the clubs that are specifically at Fort Regent itself. The only other question I have is: if any clubs have relocated from the Fort recently, have they received any financial or physical assistance in the department to do that?

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

I do not have the detail immediately to mind, Deputy , but we can certainly provide a detailed answer of all of the current users, the clubs and associations, of the Fort. If we provide that list back to Scrutiny, who we currently have there, where their intended destination is going to be, whether we have enabled that move. Some clubs and associations are of a private nature so they are making a choice as to where they want to go themselves, as well as Government doing it for them. There are some in that category, certainly. If it helps, we can provide the detail around that.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Thank you. I will hand over to Senator Pallett.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

Before we do that, can I just quickly go back to Springfield? I just wondered whether you had a chance to read through P.67. What are you doing to litigate what is contained in P.67 with regards to using the fiscal stimulus money

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment: So P.67 being the Connétable proposition on ...

Senator S.W. Pallett:

Protection of amenity space and facilities.

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, there are 2 elements to that proposition. Firstly, the property element around the commercial lease. We have done a lot of work around that lease. It was due for renewal and there have been some property evaluations, et cetera, as we need to do. There is an element of response to that

that is going to be around our commercial property responsibilities and the process that we have to go through on those. The second bit is really around the vision for Springfield and around how we think that does or does not work. We strongly believe that when the planning application has been lodged, to make Springfield work as a better sporting location we need to extend the car parking, we need to move and enhance the play area, we need to look ...

Senator S.W. Pallett: P.67 has a direct ...

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

P.67 certainly does have a direct impact. So if P.67 gets approved and voted through by the Assembly, it certainly has a direct impact on the planning application that is currently lodged, i.e. that we will not be able to deliver that planning application for the outdoor areas. We can still spend money on the internal bits of the Springfield Stadium.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

Would it allow you to do what you want from the decant?

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

It will make it really difficult. I am being really honest. It makes it difficult. If we want to increase the intensity of use at Springfield for sport, especially around the gym and longer term for the football club and football offering at the stadium.

[14:45]

We do need better car parking there and we would ideally like to see extended parking. One of the responses to that proposition is going to be around a vision for Springfield. If we are clear it is a sports site, a sports stadium, especially with the users we currently have there, the football club and its burgeoning growth, we do need to look sensibly about how the masterplan for the Springfield Stadium is used, full stop. Yes, we are concerned that that would stop the fiscal stimulus in terms of the outdoor works. Also, practically how the stadium works now and how we want it to work over the next 2 or 3 years, both from the football perspective, but also the gym perspective. Without extending the car park it is incredibly tight there at the moment. We just need to look practically about what we think Springfield is there for.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

Really briefly, could you explain why the registration and planning application for skatepark facilities, both sites - Les Quennevais and South Hill - were delayed?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

In short, there were quite a few complications with regards to the designs before we realised that we had to do a lot more work for Planning to accept the application. I have not seen a report back from Planning in such a way where there were so many questions asked. I will defend all sides on this. Not too many people, in fairness, have made applications on skateparks. So therefore there was not the expertise. Barclay, would you like to come in on this to say exactly any other points you would like to raise?

Operations Director, Sports Division:

As Deputy Raymond said, there were some questions raised by Planning that we had to go back and work on. That is what essentially created the delay. It was just some more work outside of what would normally have been submitted as part of that application. Les Quennevais is now live and open for comments. We believe South Hill will be live soon.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

Being political, I am afraid the buck stops somewhere, so who was responsibility for these delays?

Operations Director, Sports Division:

It is a difficult question to answer. We were just asked for more information, which we provided. I would not say it was the system, but the officer leading the project provided everything that he did in the first application and the Planning officer wanted more information. That is what led to the delay.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

What do you do to mitigate the delay? I am thinking of timeline here and making sure that this is delivered in the shortest possible time.

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

It still has to go through a planning process of which there are fors and against for any application.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

What can you do to mitigate any of the delays? Is there anything you can do to mitigate those delays?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

Anybody that makes an application on a planning application can cause a hold up, purely because of what they come up with. As I said, I would not want to blame anybody, because the complication at the site was not so much a point as: what do you want as a skatepark? Some of the other work that was going on behind the scenes, which we did try to mitigate, was that the team looked very much at the implications of what it would have on. For instance, the runners that go round the track every Saturday morning. As you know, we have the cricket pitch that was close to where the park is going and we have the football pitch. The cricket pitch was the problem, because the swale was too close to the skatepark. That came up. There are a list of things that I saw that I would never have even thought of.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

We accept that there have been problems with ...

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

To mitigate it now, to move it forward quickly, is that we have to make sure that we push Planning and say: "Right, is there anything else that you require that is going to cause a problem?"

Senator S.W. Pallett:

Knowing that you are pushing Planning and trying to get I am aware of the process. It is not an easy process, we all know that. Have you got any expectations of when planning permission might be granted for either of the parks?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

Barclay, have you had any feedback from Planning since the application has been in with regards to any ideas of when they see it going to a full planning meeting?

Operations Director, Sports Division: No.

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

We were anticipating a Planning decision by August. We will still be pushing to get a decision. The application that is in now had all of the relevant questions on. Going back to the process, when we go live ... we went live with our projects that we were going to put these planning applications in. The project team effectively delivered a planning application in line with the information expected in the pre-app. What we saw with the process is that further commentary was made, certainly in the public realm, we had third parties and community briefs. The Planning team came back and said: "We better have all this answered as well" so a lot more information was added in. We certainly expect the Les Quennevais decision in August.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

I know we expect this to go to the panel.

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

It is likely, yes. The test to go to panel is if it has 4 representations or more. I would imagine it will get more than 4. The best thing for the project is it is a relatively straightforward build. It is a hole with concrete and a design. We have a technical team looking at that. We are confident that it will get built within the window that we said it is going to get built in.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

Subject to planning permission, are you ready to tender for construction work?

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

The team are ready to go. I am going to make an assumption that the Les Quennevais one, because it is in the queue first, will get an approval, so we will make that assumption. We are ready effectively to go with that. The South Hill one will take longer, because it is a more intricate site.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

At what stage is the department, or departments, preparing bids for any extra funding for a potentially second large skatepark.

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

We have a fairly tight turnaround time on the Government Plan. We have committed to look at a second site and to deliver a second site. That does need more funding in the Government Plan. The next situation there would be we are now July, so we are going to be ready for a September debate in the Government Plan. That is when we need to add this into a capital programme. The challenge in the capital programme is finding enough money to deliver this in among all the other priorities in the capital programme. We have dozens of projects in capital programmes which we need to reprioritise. There is going to be a process to go through over July, August and September as to what the capital programme finally looks like.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

I am thinking back to the debate and I am trying to remember comments from the Minister around the Government Plan. I can only presume those commitments will be met.

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Certainly it is our anticipation to add a second site into the Government Plan. I guess the question is timing as to when the money might hit our budgets. That is the planning, if I can put it that way.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

One last brief one on this, because I am aware of time, skatepark east of Island, any further consultation being carried out?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

I can go the reverse way. We have spoken to the 2 other former skateparks, the one at St. Ouen and the one at St. John and had long discussions with the Constables in both. We have not, as yet, looked at the eastern end. What I have said is that with regards to the Island Plan, there are some certain areas that are looking to go towards sporting ventures. Whether they go through the Island Plan is a different matter. I have to confess that we have not looked at the eastern end. We have spoken to the 2 other Constables, as you probably know. We would like to see something at the eastern end. We have also kept in touch with the Waterfront board with regards to what is happening with the skatepark there. That is going to remain in place until we get the one sorted at Les Quennevais.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Yes, Dan touched on the question of the structure. I have made them quickfire questions, because of the time, if I may. You said Jersey Sport is owned by a trust and Government. The Jersey Sport Development Trust it is called. In that respects, is there any form of dialogue between Government on the one hand and the trustees of the Trust on the other?

Group Director, Economy and Partnerships, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

You will be aware that the Minister for Economic Development, Sport and Culture is the enforcer for the trust and consequently that is the conduit into Government in the context of the trust. The trust, of course, controls the limited company that is the charity called Jersey Sport. That is the relationship between Government and the trust. The Jersey Sport relationship, in terms of the limited company and the charity, is managed under a standard partnership agreement with quarterly review and so on and so forth.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Thank you. As you mentioned, the Minister being the enforcer, some time ago we were approached about changing that with a view to enabling either the trust of the company to achieve charitable status. Then that was taken off the agenda. I am not sure which has charitable status, but either way you are content that the Minister can retain his position there?

Group Director, Economy and Partnerships, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

That has been discussed quite extensively with your officers and others. The reality is with the Minister as the enforcer of the trust company that cannot be a charity. However, because he is not involved in the limited company directly, therefore it is appropriate for that to be a charity. The Jersey Sport Development Trust is where the Minister is the enforcer and it therefore cannot be a charity.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Who are the current directors of Jersey Sport?

Group Director, Economy and Partnerships, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

The current directors are Jean Cross, Steve Law, Tony Taylor , Ed Daubeney, Mark Wanless and Sarah Madel.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

To what extent are they involved in States work, if at all?

Group Director, Economy and Partnerships, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment: The chairman is chairman of Jersey Electricity as well.

Group Director, Economy and Partnerships, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment: Sarah Madel is badminton and Tony Taylor is rugby. We have been fairly active. We are affected by each other, so we must make sure that everybody knows exactly where they are going. So there is very much a positive move forward.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Again, question about the interaction between the independent directors and Government.

Group Director, Economy and Partnerships, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

You have to remember that Jersey Sport was set up at the time the Innovation Fund was being scrutinised. It was quite down to the belt and braces approach. It has continued in the sense that officers attend all meetings as well. There is a really good, strong golden thread running through ... the objectives of the Government.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Again, trying to be quick here, you have referred to a partnership agreement between the department and Jersey Sport. That was 2017, 2019. Can we be provided with a current partnership agreement?

Group Director, Economy and Partnerships, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment: Yes, we can.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

More generally, as you say, I remember it well at the time it was sworn there might have been a purpose behind it, i.e. owning it through a trust. Does that still apply? Why should it not be a Jersey Ports wholly-owned body? Is there any justification or rationale for keeping it as it is rather than becoming a States-owned body?

Group Director, Economy and Partnerships, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

If I could give you the official answer, it works really well. We have very good engagement. There does not appear, from an official perspective, to be a reason to change that structure.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Again, I seem to recall there was thinking that as it was independent it would be in a position to raise funds independently.

[15:00]

It has not been tainted by Government in the sense that if there was Government involvement it would lessen the chances of people seeing it as a charitable thing. Has that been pursued at all? Does it raise its own funds?

Group Director, Economy and Partnerships, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

It certainly has capacity to. It was only made a charity in 2019, so this is quite recently, but absolutely the aspiration for all our A.L.O.s. (arm's-length organisations). In reality, people would expect us to be the support of last resort in many cases, not least because of the situation we are in with regards to finances going forward. We are always encouraging people to be as self-sufficient as possible. That is a principle that

The Deputy of St. Mary :

All this work, is it channelled through the partnership agreement at the moment or does it have an existence of its own?

Group Director, Economy and Partnerships, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment: The Lions tour is a good example of it raising funds independently.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

It was organised through that

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

We had to because of the charity status. That is why the funding went to Jersey Sport and that is why they are deciding where the money goes to, the sporting bodies outside of Jersey Sport. Do not get me wrong, 10 per cent of some of that money went to the Lions charity as well, but the vast majority went to Jersey Sport for them to spend with regards to the sporting bodies outside.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

The money for that came from Government?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

No, this was money raised at the auction. We had to put it through a charity because otherwise we were going to get complications if it just went into a pot, if you see what I mean. So it went to the charity, Jersey Sport arranged it, through Jersey Finance, and through that it went to the charity, which meant that they could then push it back out to all the sporting bodies. This has not been done at the present time, but is in the process of being done now.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Not for now, but did you raise a lot of questions at the time on internal administration? Can it later on  find  the  details  of people  we  should  write  to  as  to  Minister  board  meetings  and  trustee resolutions?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture: Absolutely.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Final question: in answering question 226 from the Constable of St. Martin , you say that Jersey Sport is not public authority under the F.O.I. (Freedom of Information) Law. It does not therefore have to supply responses to F.O.I. requests.

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

We took this to the lawyers. Because they are funded directly through Government then they really should be answering F.O.I. questions. We were then told and I took it expressly to the Law Department and they said because we had been told 70 per cent. But what we are now doing is that every F.O.I. put to Jersey Sport will be answered. That has been cleared. I am not sure if that is the total legal situation, because I do not think it is clear. What we have made clear to Jersey Sport is they are being asked F.O.I. questions, therefore they should come back and they are coming back on all the questions we ask through F.O.I.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

If you say it has been sorted otherwise that is fine.

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture: It has been sorted.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

Is that going to be through an amendment to the schedule?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

That is a good question, Senator. It has been complicated. I asked the direct question: "Why could these people not answer F.O.I. questions?" And I have not really had the total answer.

Senator S.W. Pallett:

They are not set up that way.

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

No, but the first answer came back and said that if they are funded directly through the taxpayer then they should answer every question. What I am trying to say is it is definitely being looked at. We need to clear this.

Group Director, Economy and Partnerships, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Just to punctuate this, yes, it is a goodwill gesture on behalf of Jersey Sport. They are not obliged to do so, but are prepared to do so in any case.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Thank you for that. I will pass you back to Steven Luce .

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Thank you, Chair. I have 3 quite quick questions, again on Jersey Sport, if I may. The first one is for the Minister and is to ask exactly what Government funding is currently made available to Jersey Sport, both under the S.L.A. (Service Level Agreement) and, separately, under the wider Government Plan funding?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

They were issued with I was going to say £2.3 million but it is £2.0647 million last year and 2021

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Okay. That is the complete amount of money, there is no more than that. It is not a separated figure under the Government Plan or the S.L.A., it is just one lump of cash.

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

No, it is one lump of cash, which is signed off by the Economic Department every 6 months. We go to the first 6 months and we are up for review and discussions at the present time because of the implications of some of the money that has been coming in from their charitable status.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Okay, thank you. Could I just ask again, sorry to repeat it, it did not come well over the audio, the total figure £2.0 something?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture: £2.0647 million, just under £2,100,000.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Okay, thank you very much. The next question is: what is the current wage bill for Jersey Sport and how many staff does it account for?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

At the present time there are circa 33 staff and their wage bill is we would have to come back to you on that but I am quite happy to come back because I have got the answers to that myself personally.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Okay. My final question then is to do with the C.E.O. (chief executive officer) of Jersey Sport because obviously we would be interested to know, how is her wage salary being met? Is it out of Jersey Sport? Is it from Government? How is that split and what is the arrangement?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture: I think it is best, Andrew, if you could answer that question.

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, I guess we need to just clarify where I.H.E. are contracted with the chief executive at the moment, as opposed to the person who is posted as the chief executive, rather than the chief executive. We have brought in the person who is the chief executive to act as our project director for Inspiring Active Places. For that project I.H.E. are paying the equivalent for the project director role and she retains her role in Jersey Sport as the chief executive for the remainder of her time, so her time is split between 2 functions.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

The money is agreed and the time is hers to decide how to appropriate the 2 of course.

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes. We did that because it was the most sensible decision for us to do because of her experience, so we brought someone in here who is on Island who has got an immense sort of repertoire and experience in terms of delivering sport projects. We have not brought Jersey Sport in to do that, we brought her specifically as the person to do that because of her skill base. We do provide money to recompense Jersey Sport for that because they are needing to backfill that resource within their organisation. Because, effectively, we are using some of her available time to work for I.H.E. in this regard, rather than Jersey Sport.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Okay, thank you. To be clear, I am certainly not questioning her immense ability in sport but I just wanted to be very clear about how her salary and wages in these various roles was being funded.

Deputy S.W. Pallett:

Just to be clear, what you recompense Jersey for is purely what is paid, that there is no compensatory element to Jersey Sport whatsoever?

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, we brought in her time for us, effectively, so Jersey Sport are going to have to backfill that time. We have got an agreement with Jersey Sport to provide that, so we can provide details of what that agreement looks like. But, in principle, it is effectively we take her for at least 3 days a week, sometimes it is a bit more but we have taken her as the person to do that role for us because of her experience and Jersey Sport will have to backfill behind the scenes.

Deputy S.W. Pallett:

We can see that, as I mentioned there, that is fine. In terms of what Jersey Sport receive, the last time I was aware the S.L.A. provides £1.15 million to Jersey Sport, yet I believe receiving £2.064 million. Can you give me can breakdown of the difference?

Group Director, Economy and Partnerships, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

You are quite right, Senator. You have got a core grant of £1,150,000 then you have got some growth that was embedded in the Government Plan at £779,000, then you have got a couple of additional members of staff, one to do walking, which is another £27,433 and then you have got a programme director at £108,024, which makes up the balance.

Deputy S.W. Pallett:

Can you give us a breakdown of staff and the money in terms of what they provide and that would be useful?

Group Director, Economy and Partnerships, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment: Yes.

Deputy S.W. Pallett:

Yes, okay, thank you. Yes, I will move on to Active Card scheme. Can the Assistant Minister explain how those who purchased an Active membership prior to the outbreak of COVID-19 are going to reap the full benefit of their purchase?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

I am going to have to hand over to Barclay because he has been dealing with that on an ongoing basis. Could you continue?

Operations Director, Sports Division:

Senator Pallett, would you mind repeating the question? Sorry, it did not come through that clear.

Deputy S.W. Pallett:

Yes. I wonder if you could explain how anybody that has purchased an Active membership, corporate or private, prior to the outbreak of COVID-19, are going to reap the benefit of their purchase, financially get the most of their Active Card because we know there are times that Active Cards have been suspended.

Operations Director, Sports Division:

We significantly reduced the price of that card obviously during that period in terms of sort of readdressing the balance. Does that answer your question?

Deputy S.W. Pallett:

How will members find out when their card runs out because clearly they will have reduced will they be contacted individually when their card runs out to renew?

Operations Director, Sports Division:

Yes, so the Active Card team have been in constant communication with all of those members about how things are progressing during the COVID period, even the sort of small restrictions that we have got at the moment. We continue to make adjustments almost on a daily basis to try and get us back to where we were, I suppose, pre-COVID. Things are looking so much better than they were 6 months ago, 12 months ago, with a lot more people in the gyms now; group exercise classes back online, et cetera, so it is looking really positive.

Deputy S.W. Pallett:

No, I understand the difficulties and I think the staff have been incredible during the period in time and including senior management. But what is the current position regarding the number of Active Card members and what are Active doing to attract the public back into our gyms and into a more active lifestyle?

Operations Director, Sports Division:

The Active Card is a commercial it is a private arrangement, it is a contractual arrangement between the member of the public and our Active Card. There is continuous push to get people back in and encourage them to return, and that is done through various push notifications that we have online. It is done through our website, et cetera, and then just the sort of, as I say, ongoing communications that we have with that group of people. We have got a large database of members, so  we  will  push  out  some  electronic  communications  to  them  and  so  on. We  are  actively encouraging them back and they seem to be enjoying their return to exercise.

Deputy S.W. Pallett:

I do not know if this is one for the Assistant Minister or officers but I will throw it at the Assistant Minister. Can the Assistant Minister explain what is the likely effect on Active membership of the decision to defer the sports division refurbishment money to 2022? Will this have any effect on the replacement of equipment within public sports facilities?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture: I think, Andy, you might say

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, certainly Barclay is shaking his head online but I was going to say about just a supplementary answer to your previous question around what we can do to get people back into sport.

Deputy S.W. Pallett:

Should it not be shiny equipment?

Certainly that but also the Inspiring an Active Jersey is the answer really. We are really calling out here the fact that we have got sports facilities and infrastructure which were great in their day but they are getting a little bit long in the tooth and we need to really invest back into them, so that if we fast forward 4, 5 or 10 years we have got facilities that people want to go back into and train in. If we do not do that sort of investment I think our Active membership will leak away and I think it will leak away to other private providers or people will not access those public facilities.

[15:15]

I think for me the biggest strategic answer is that we have got to fundamentally look at our offer and what we are putting in place in those buildings. I think if I look at the Active gym, whether we want to move out and go into Springfield, it would be a modern, purpose-built, brand new gym and I think it will attract people. Certainly in terms of that wider picture, that is where we have got to really focus and working with our partners, such as Jersey sporting centres, of getting people's lifestyles in that direction as well, whether it be in built facilities or just outside in our natural environment. I think it is a bit of a blended approach.

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

Barclay, there is money already in the existing budget, is there not, for certain aspects of equipment?

Operations Director, Sports Division:

Yes, so we took the opportunity in the last 9 months to replace a significant amount of the gym equipment. If you go into the likes of Les Quennevais today or Springfield you will see a significant amount of reinvestment of minor capital money; state of the art equipment. Les Quennevais, for example, had a completely new weight section and, again, very well received. While it was quiet in the COVID period we were able to use that money wisely and place some significant orders for new kit.

Deputy S.W. Pallett:

Do not get me wrong, I understand how you have broken your back over the years to find funds and making sure that the public get looked after. I appreciate the efforts of you and the staff, which is why I am disappointed that we deferred the money for a year but we know why. That is the rest of my questions and I am going to hand it back over to David.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

I am just conscious of the time, are you all right for 5 minutes or thank you. We did start slightly late but that is not your fault. Very quick questions on travel grants: what is the current position as regards to availability of travel grants to allow sports people to train and compete off the Island?

Group Director, Economy and Partnerships, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

The travel grants are in situ and the clubs can make an application to Jersey Sport for their travel grants. It slowed down last year obviously because of COVID but there are a lot of teams wanting to go away and they apply in the normal way straight to Jersey Sport and they will look at their applications, no problems at all; that is a totally positive move for them.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Again, related to that, were all the 2021 travel grants funding used to provide COVID support to sports clubs and associations?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

Yes, they were used in different ways. Again, I think it would be better if you saw a breakdown of what and how they were used and I am quite happy for you it would be useful for you to see where they went. Because they were used also in making sure because we had 3 difficult complications with some of the sporting bodies, where the coaches had to upgrade but could not get off Island to upgrade under the you will remember, we were having to sort of almost do it online and they were helping out that way. Now we can move into being able to get back to the U.K. (United Kingdom) and to national gaming bodies. There is a move afoot to make sure that we look after these people to make sure that the children are looked after

The Deputy of St. Mary :

The travel grants are in place now.

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture: Yes, they are.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Right, on that note I will shoot back to Stephen Luce , I think.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Thank you, Chair. On the last straight now, certainly from my perspective. Could I ask, Minister, what the overall cost was to the taxpayers of Jersey of getting the British and Irish Lions over into the Island?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

Right, be specific here because it has gone I have got some notes on that. The total investment is around £175,000 but £100,000 was Visit Jersey and the £75,000 was for Government Jersey. I did ask the question, which I am just trying to clarify, that had come from Government resources, not from Jersey Sport or

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, that is correct, so £175,000 in total, £100,000 from Visit Jersey to promote destination market, effectively, and £75,000 from Government departmental fund.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Do we have a breakdown of the costs or did we just give over a lump sum of money for British Lions management or whoever they were to use for their stay?

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

There would have been some negotiations around the cost. I do not have those details with me at the moment, I am sure we could provide them for you.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Okay, I would be grateful if you could. My final question very quickly: is anyone carrying out a cost benefit analysis of this visit to see where this is taking us?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

Tourism, I am looking at what it has been worth to their budgets and Amanda is coming back to us on that. We have been kept up to date with regards to the publicity and everything that has been shown with the national newspapers and everything else. I suppose, I have got to say, Steve, one of the downsides, it is great we got the Lions over but we have had problems in trying to get other national sporting teams over, which has really sort of got to me a bit. Because we have got, what is it, 260 sporting associations? There are sports that would have loved to have come over and we have had difficulty because of the public health issues. But we are looking in that on a daily basis and, hopefully, that we can change that around. There are some big events due to come up. We are keeping our fingers crossed about the triathlon and the likes. Therefore, we have just got to make sure that we help every sport as much as possible. But, yes, the figures with regards to what benefit this is to the Island is being checked on a regular basis.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Okay, thank you. I do not disagree, I think this is a fantastic initiative for the Island and what more could we ask for than the British Lions to spear that initiative. Were we in a position to be donating or giving money to the netballers had they come?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

There were negotiations going on. Also, there has been help given, one of the other ones was the football team that went to Birmingham that won the cup. There has been a fee given to them with regards to help of their costs and we were looking at helping netball as to how we do it. I think we had a complication, which the U.K. have had the same complication, and that is: what is a professional sportsman? Which has been difficult and I think we are going to have to make our minds up. If somebody is playing for the Island and, quite frankly, I personally think they should be a professional sportsman because they have been selected for the Island. But we have got to look at that and make sure that we help as many sports as possible.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Okay, thank you. You mentioned super league and I will just pass over to Senator Pallett for a couple of more questions on that subject.

Deputy S.W. Pallett:

Yes, bring in other teams and I think we are fortunate that we have got motivated and dedicated individuals in the Island that have put their neck and private money on the line to provide the services here to attract firms. You did mention the super league triathlon and the same type of thing, what overall level of funding is being made available to the event in 2021?

Group Director, Economy and Partnerships, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment: To super league?

Deputy S.W. Pallett: Yes, super league.

Group Director, Economy and Partnerships, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

We have got a 4-week contract, effectively, so those numbers are embedded in the contract. I am going to ask Paul Milbank to give you the numbers in a minute while I but, yes, so the idea is allow 2020 to continue with the event under the existing contractual terms. Our anticipation is that the super league will go ahead this year. We were in relatively detailed conversations and negotiations with Michael Dhulst, who is the founder of super league, and they are still very keen to have Jersey on the victory list. Of course, we believe that that adds to a lot of money in terms of tourism and developing destination reasons to visit Jersey in the short months and increase productivity of the hospitality sector, which is sorely needed. But, Paul, have you got the exact figures and the contracts that you can pass on at this stage?

Sector Lead, Arts, Culture, Heritage and Sport:

Yes. Sorry, my reception was fine the entire way through and it just chose this moment to go a bit blurry. Sorry, Daniel, would you just repeat your question? Are you asking for the funding levels for S.L.T. (Super League Triathlon)?

Group Director, Economy and Partnerships, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment: For 2021, please.

Sector Lead, Arts, Culture, Heritage and Sport:

Okay, so the total amount that is provided in the contract, and it is carried over from the grant agreement which runs into multiple years, is £400,000 and that is allocated from Government of Jersey, it is also allocated from Visit Jersey and Locate Jersey. Visit Jersey and Locate Jersey act as sponsors to the event to the tune of £100,000 from Visit Jersey and £50,000 from Locate Jersey.

Deputy S.W. Pallett:

When does that contract run out, do we know?

Sector Lead, Arts, Culture, Heritage and Sport:

Yes, it is running until 2022, so after the 2022 event that contract will have been complete.

Deputy S.W. Pallett:

Okay. Do not get me wrong, I am not trying to be negative because I know it is Visit Jersey but I think the public want to know where we spend our money. Again, the same questions that we had for rugby, and I know a little bit about this, do we do a detailed cost-benefit analysis of the event and I know Visit Jersey

Sector Lead, Arts, Culture, Heritage and Sport: Yes.

Deputy S.W. Pallett:

but in terms of what bang for our buck we get because £400,000 is a lot of money?

Sector Lead, Arts, Culture, Heritage and Sport:

Yes, there is a cost-benefit analysis that is being done. Obviously the last example we have was from 2019 because the 2020 event had to be cancelled. The event is looked at both from a tourism perspective and from a local economic benefits perspective from those visitors who are coming over and participating in the local economy. We have the numbers of that; that cost-benefit analysis. I'm happy to send those on and all of that analysis where it can be made available.

Deputy S.W. Pallett:

Okay, that would be useful and we can always pick it up in a quarterly if

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Yes, as I say, Visit Jersey are due, so we could always get that from Visit Jersey but very pleased to receive from you direct.

Group Director, Economy and Partnerships, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

If I might just add, let us not forget that there are quantitative measures and also qualitative measures and I think what we have been trying to do, as we progress through what is, effectively, a trial to see whether it worked. Over the last 5 years, it was all right now after one year or even 2, so 5 is deemed as an appropriate period of timing to give the organisation and the event a chance to blossom, as it were. But as they have been moving through the process and as we have been working with them, the community outreach element has become much stronger and I think compared to the first year is much more persuasive, so

Deputy S.W. Pallett:

That is an interesting point because are we going to do a total benefit analysis because same with the rugby, it had a huge effect on young people locally, we could even do it for things like a programme and things like that as well because if there are elements we do not think

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

I think if you only tell one or 2 stories you are only telling half a story, so I think from my perspective I think it would be very sensible to look very carefully at the qualitative stuff as well, so I think that is

Sector Lead, Arts, Culture, Heritage and Sport:

May I just add to that? Yes, we have been trying to increase the amount of interaction between the organisers of S.L.T. and Jersey Sport and Jersey Sport have got some good ideas for the event next year, which will increase the amount of local participation, particularly among young people. There is a growing relationship between the Island's sporting scene and the events of S.L.T. and S.L.T. are very enthusiastic about that growing relationship. I am more optimistic that it will have an increasing qualitative impact on the Island as well as the visitor numbers and the economy spent.

Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

I think just structurally within Government having 2 dedicated officers that can outtake their time to brokering and negotiating good outcomes for the Island in the context of sport is acceptable.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Steve Luce , you have done that is yours, yes; so 2 final questions related to Island Games and Commonwealth Games and funding in relation to those 2. What fundings are in place for each of these organisations?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

There is standard funding in place on both. Paul, again, you are more up to date probably than I am, is that correct?

Sector Lead, Arts, Culture, Heritage and Sport:

Yes. I cannot, unfortunately, give you figures right now because I know some of it is still in negotiation. Just had a partnership meeting with Jersey Sport this morning and they were trying to get the finalised numbers, so very happy to provide that to the panel as soon as we have it.

The Deputy of St. Mary : Okay, anyway, it is in hand

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture: Yes, it is in hand.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Okay. Are you expecting any funding requests in sport for the next Island Games to be held in Guernsey? It comes under the same umbrella, does it?

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture: I suppose it would come under the same umbrella.

Deputy S.W. Pallett:

Nothing specific at the current time.

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture: No, it is a valid point but, again, we can follow that through without any problems.

Deputy S.W. Pallett:

Okay, well if you can send the figures

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Okay, that completes my exam paper and thank you for your time and extended time. Yes, thank you for all your answers and thanks for offering to forward further details on to us in respect of

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture:

If we have missed anything, please get in touch with us to say we have not got the

The Deputy of St. Mary : Yes.

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture: We are going to get the team together and we will show you that whole piece.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Thank you and there will be a few to follow-up things. All right, thanks again for all your time and co-operation.

Assistant Minister, Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture: Thank you.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

I declare the meeting closed.

[15:30]