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Gender Pay Group Review Panel Diversity Network
Witness: Co-Founder, Diversity Network
Friday, 12th November 2021
Panel:
Senator S.Y. Mézec
Connétable K. Shenton-Stone of St. Martin
Witnesses:
Co-Founder, Diversity Network
[10:32]
Senator S.Y. Mézec :
Welcome to this public hearing of the Gender Pay Gap Review Panel for our follow-up review on Jersey's gender pay gap. As it is a public hearing, it may be the case that somebody wants to come and join us in the public viewing gallery and hopefully people will watch online as well. Just for the record we will go around the table and introduce ourselves with our names and titles. I am Senator Sam Mézec . I am a member of the Panel.
Connétable K. Shenton-Stone of St. Martin :
I am Constable Karen Shenton-Stone . I am a member of the Panel.
Principal Committee and Panel Officer:
I am Kelly Boydens . I am Principal Committee and Panel Officer.
Communications Officer:
I am Edward Le Gallais, Communications Officer.
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
I am Kate Wright and I am here in my capacity as co-founder of the Diversity Network.
Senator S.Y. Mézec :
Thank you. Can I just ask you to confirm that you have read the notice in front of you and understood it?
Co-Founder, Diversity Network: I have indeed.
Senator S.Y. Mézec :
Excellent. Thank you very much for being here and for the Diversity Network's submission as well that we have seen. So just to kick off then, could I just ask you to explain what your organisation does, why it was set up, and then perhaps after that go into what you think are the main points that you wanted to get across in the submission that you sent us?
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
I established the Diversity Network with my colleague Sam Duffy about 3½ years ago. That is because (1) we are both very passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion; and (2) we saw very much a gap in the business community here at the time in terms of those issues. So initially it was a passion project, we wanted to run some events, some networking events where we could get businesspeople in a room and inspire them to start a conversation. I am really delighted, the timing was great, there has been far more demand for our help. So I now spend probably half of my working time working with local employers here to help them develop their D. & I. (diversity and inclusion) strategies, run training, give talks, that kind of thing. So we are very much about trying to support the business community increase diversity and inclusion in their workplaces.
Senator S.Y. Mézec :
Excellent. Of course that is very relevant for what we are looking at here with the gender pay gap. So we did see that you had responded to our call for submissions for this review. Bearing in mind it is a follow-up review from the previous one as well. So we have a list of questions that we will go through, but just from the outset, was there anything in particular from your submission that you thought was worth highlighting?
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
The impact is the pandemic is important and that has had pros and cons. Hopefully that will be clear in my answers to your questions. It is important to bear that in mind.
Senator S.Y. Mézec :
We have some questions down for, in particular, how the pandemic has affected it. It has been difficult not to notice.
Co-Founder, Diversity Network: Absolutely. Not just on women.
Senator S.Y. Mézec :
Indeed, yes. So how would you outline what your understanding of the gender pay gap is? Because it is more than just a phrase. There is some technicality behind it.
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
Absolutely. The first thing that confuses people initially is that this is not about equal pay. A more appropriate and easier to understand definition in the Jersey context is it measures the seniority gap. So it is very much about the lack of women across most industries in the top jobs, even in organisations where there is a predominantly female workforce. It is also about the disproportionate number of women working in lower-paid professions and sectors. In terms of the technicalities, how most organisations calculate their gender pay gap, it is quite a simple formula. This bamboozles people sometimes too. The most common calculation used is when you take men's and women's salaries within an organisation, you line them up from highest to lowest, and you take a look at the median salary. So in Jersey, in the Channel Islands, P.w.C. ( Price waterhouseCoopers), and we do not have much data to evidence the pay gap across Jersey, but PwC produce a really helpful report. They have estimated that the difference between men and women's median pay across all industries in the Channel Islands is 21 per cent. To put that into context, that is very high. In their Women in Work index there are only 3 countries with a higher pay gap than Jersey. So we are very much at the lower end and we have not seen any improvement since the last report. Evidence suggests that perhaps it is getting worse.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Leading on from that, what do you think are the main causes of the gender pay gap in Jersey?
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
There are 3. When you get underneath the causes they are complex, but there are 3 high-level causes. As already mentioned, there are far more men in senior roles than women. There are a disproportionate number, there are more women in caring roles and part-time roles, far more women in those positions. There are more women who work in lower-paid roles and sectors. For me those are the 3 main causes of this pay gap.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Do you think there has been a cultural shift in Jersey over the last 5 years. If yes, in what ways would you say?
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
I am very lucky; I am an eternal optimist because I tend to spend a lot of my time working with people who really care and get these issues and want to do something about it. So I get invited into organisations that are really wanting to do something. I have found it really heartening since the Diversity Network was established that the conversation has changed, it has moved on. The organisations in which I work, which is predominantly finance and the law sectors, it is no longer about what is diversity and inclusion, what is the gender pay gap, it is what can we do about it? In the last few months especially I have found there to be real momentum and appetite for change. I am really busy, which is a good indicator. However, when I look at the evidence across the Island, my bubble is somewhat burst. I am genuinely really concerned about this gap. I am concerned that it is widening. So I am pleased to be talking to you about it today. Because it is not just the right thing to do, let us just face it, equality is a basic human right. It is something that should be top of the agenda regardless of the business case and the economic case. But there is a huge imperative for Jersey PLC to up its game and actively seek to close that gap.
Senator S.Y. Mézec :
Do you think there is a unique Jersey angle to any of this? You mentioned about us not ranking very well. Is there anything that you can notice about the environment in Jersey that you think might be responsible for that? Or is it just bad luck?
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
No, it is not bad luck at all. Before I get into the negatives, Jersey is in a fantastic position. We are a small, wealthy Island. We can be right up at the top of the P.w.C. Women in Work rankings if we want to. I can give you some examples of how other jurisdictions that are not dissimilar to Jersey have done that. But in terms of the Jersey context, we mirror the U.K. (United Kingdom) a lot in terms of our working culture. The fact that a lot of our working traditions are still very much based in 1950s models. The 1950s models of men being the main breadwinner, going into the workplace, the wife largely being at home, enabling them to focus 100 per cent on their work. That is very much the 1950s model. The world has changed and that does not work anymore. We need to see a fundamental shift in that attitude. Jersey is quite a conservative society and there is a lack of awareness and understanding quite often about how the world is changing around us and we are not necessarily going with it. But there is also perhaps an unwillingness too. So that is a particular Jersey issue. I am really proud of some of our business leaders right now. There are some employers in Jersey doing some really forward-thinking work, both within their organisations and within the wider community. That is really exciting. If I am honest, I do not see that from our political leadership and that is a huge issue. There are lots of ways, lots of solutions, to closing this gap. Some of them are really complex and are going to take a lot of time. But some of them are not so difficult. A really simple stride would be to hear our leaders actively engaging in these issues, talking about equality as if it really matters, demonstrating that they understand some of the inequalities in our community. As I say, that is not just about women. But women, particularly women from ethnic minority communities and lower socioeconomic communities are impacted, but seeking to understand these issues. Speaking out about some of those issues. Challenging some of their colleagues in the States Assembly when they do make sexist comments or behave in an inappropriate way. Quite frankly I do not see that. I see it from some of our States Members. I do not see it from our Council of Ministers. That is really sad. But it is a quick win to talk about these things, champion some of these causes, reach out and understand.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
This is interesting for me as well because one of my other hats is I am Chair of the P.A.C. (Public Accounts Committee); I am heading the review into COVID. So how do you think the COVID-19 pandemic has impacted women?
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
It has been interesting. There have been positives and negatives. I am not normally a notes person but I wanted to make sure that I was very much evidence-based today. Anecdotally, and again there is not much data that I am aware of to demonstrate it, but anecdotal evidence in Jersey suggests that women have been forced to take on more domestic and caring responsibilities over the course of the pandemic, even when both partners are working. That is a legacy of that 1950s working model that I mentioned before. It has been very much the case that mothers, rather than fathers, have been forced to juggle work and home-schooling and childcare during periods of lockdown and quarantine and isolation that we are still seeing now. As well as forcing some women to reduce their working hours or take additional unpaid leave to accommodate childcare or, in some cases, having to leave their jobs.
[10:45]
It will have had a detrimental impact on their mental health and their visibility in the workplace. So that has been a negative impact. With the severe impact of the pandemic on our retail and hospitality industries in particular, again it will have been women and particularly women from ethnic minority groups and lower socioeconomic groups who will have been most impacted in terms of periods of unemployment and financial insecurity. The clear upside to the pandemic is that we now know very
well that flexible working and remote working works. It works really well in many roles and industries. Not all, but many. That is brilliant. That is really liberating. That is really helpful to, not just working women, but working parents, working fathers too. We have an opportunity now to really build on that. But that requires a cultural shift in the way that we view flexible working. We really have to be careful to mitigate the risk of a 2-tier system of career progression emerging where those who are able to be in the office more often are selected for promotion because they are visible and they are networking with the decision-makers in and outside of work. It does not have to be the way. It is really important that we radically review the way senior roles in business can work. This perception that, if you are in a senior position in work, you cannot work part time. Why is that the case? You have to be present. You are going to miss out on something important, decision-making, or your clients are not going to be able to get hold of you. We have to radically change that view and make it possible for senior positions to work flexibly and on a part-time basis, as well as more junior roles. We have to see that people can progress their careers in part-time roles. You do not have to be in full-time work to be able to progress and move up the ladder. It is those kind of changes and shifts in perspective that we need to see and flexible working very much has to be available to everybody, not just working women. It is not just about equality for women. This is equality for fathers too. There is research in the U.K. to suggest that more than half of young fathers would take a pay cut in order to be able to spend more time with their families. So flexible working needs to be for everybody and it needs to be in all roles across the business, not just female roles or more junior roles.
Senator S.Y. Mézec :
You touched upon what were literally the next 4 questions on my list there. But that is really good. So I guess, following from that, you have said there are opportunities but also some risks with it as well. Do you see much evidence of any sort of understanding with the businesses that you work with where they are now looking at flexible working of any understanding from their part about what those risks might be and what they are doing to mitigate them?
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
Absolutely. I see a great deal of evidence of that among the employers that I work with. As I said, I am getting a slightly warped view potentially. But in the businesses that I am working with, none of them are returning to their previous models of working, 9.00 a.m. to 5.00 p.m. in the office no longer exists. Most of them seem to be moving to a hybrid model. These are intelligent businesspeople. They realise that does not come without its challenges. They recognise that there is a risk of a 2-tier system. They recognise that it is more difficult to communicate and manage your employees when they are not all in the office at the same time. But I am working with some businesses here who are doing some really innovative stuff around creating a sense of team. It is
fantastic because what it is forcing organisations to do is address a lot of the old issues that we had
in place that slowed down business. Poor people management just cannot be tolerated anymore. We have to be better at managing our people. So they are upskilling their people managers and they are addressing these issues. But the way they are doing it is in an inclusive way. You cannot do it without involving the people it is affecting. So they are involving their employees in this. So I see a lot of really positive stuff and that is really exciting. It is making a fairer workplace but it is driving up performance too. What worries me is, as an organisation, we struggle to connect with some of the industries that perhaps need this help and need to see this more than others, retail, hospitality, construction. There is some good stuff going on in construction. Also smaller businesses. So I see a lot of good stuff but there is a huge raft of employees, workers, who are not feeling the benefit of this forward thinking.
Senator S.Y. Mézec :
Is there anything in particular that the Government could do to help those who are not quite yet on this page, but with a bit of extra support or incentivisation could get there?
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
Yes, absolutely. For starters, we tend to always look to the U.K. for a solution. The U.K. is not doing much better than us in terms of their gender pay gap. But if we look at PwC's Women in Work index and we look at the countries that are doing really well and that have risen up the ranks, it is some of the Nordic countries. One that is really interesting is Luxembourg. Because we compete with Luxembourg for talent and investments and the sort of synergies in terms of our 2 jurisdictions. Their Government has taken a very proactive role in helping organisations close the pay gap. It is phenomenal. They have practically almost eradicated the gender pay gap based on PwC's 2020 report, which is really interesting. They have done that relatively quickly. They have done that through strengthening their framework and their statutory requirements. But they have done that with support. They refresh the dialogue, the conversation around equal pay and the gender pay gap. They have demonstrated a lot of the strong political leadership that I have said is perhaps somewhat lacking here with regards to equality. They have put in place some software that is available for free to all companies to help them measure their pay gaps. Because I do think sometimes that is the first obstacle: "How the hell do we do this? We do not have the resources to do this." We have a lot of smaller employers in Jersey who would especially benefit from that level of support. They work to support certified good practice across their business communities. So there are practical things that they do and we can look to Luxembourg and the Nordic countries for some solutions potentially. So that is one thing that we can do. I have a bit of a list, a wish-list. The simplest and quickest way that Government here can help to close the gap is by demonstrating real leadership around cultural change. We need women and other under-represented groups need and deserve to see and hear our political leaders speaking up on issues relating to the pay gap and
challenging their colleagues who perhaps stand in the way. It would take a half-hour conversation.
Sometimes the issue with some of our States Members is I do not believe it is an issue of not caring, I do not believe that. I think we have politicians here who genuinely really care and they want Jersey to be the best place it possibly can be. I am sure all of them are in that position. But there is an ignorance. There is a lack of understanding of the reality of some members of the community. You can spend half an hour chatting to charities like Caritas who work and support under-represented groups who do face inequalities, not just in the workplace, and you can learn a lot. I would love to see politicians, not just developing better policy around closing the gap, but championing some of these issues and speaking out on them. I do not hear that very often. The Government could bring in an Equalities Minister. It should not be a side-of-desk job. It requires a full-time ministerial position to look at it and work on the solutions and champion these causes. The Government could start at home; it can work harder to ensure that the States Assembly is a more inclusive place itself, to encourage greater diversity within our Assembly and within our Government. There is a lot of anecdotal feedback from women in ethnic minority and lower socioeconomic groups particularly that suggests that they feel, rightly or wrongly, our Government do not understand, and I think wrongly it comes across to them that they do not care about their lives and their experiences of inclusion and opportunity on the Island. A lot of these groups do not see themselves as having access to the same opportunities in the workplace as white middleclass able-bodied Jersey-born or British people, particularly men. So greater diversity within the States Assembly therefore is a major part of the solution to improving the lives of women and underrepresented groups in the Island. That is really important. Lack of high-quality affordable childcare. I know there has been quite a lot of work around this but it still remains a barrier to employment for many women. So Diversity Network's own research back in 2019 suggested that having caring responsibilities was almost as big a barrier to finding employment for those actively seeking work as a criminal record. That is how big a barrier it is. This suggests that our ageing population will only compound this barrier for women over the coming years. So solutions need to be found urgently. As advocated in P.w.C.'s Women in Work report, we would like to see greater access and financial support for women wishing to return to education or retrain in future skills, especially single mothers. There have been many cases where single mothers have only been able to take their further education so far and then the funding stops and the support stops and they are unable to fulfil their potential, bring their talent into the workplace. At the moment, with my H.R. (human resources) hat on, the biggest business issue for so many employers is recruitment. It is no exaggeration to say there is a real war for talent. This is a fantastic opportunity. We have so much talent in Jersey that flies under the radar because they cannot access the opportunities because of the way that we perceive things must work. That is not just women. I know so many women personally who have had quite a glittering career, they have taken 5 years out of work to care for their children and to get back into the workplace they have to take a massive step down. That is crazy. That is absolutely crazy. It does not take much to bring them up to speed again. It is not just women; it is people with disabilities. Again, flexible working, remote working,
offers fantastic opportunities to employers to start to engage some of those members of our
community in the workplace. People who have had to take time out because of long-term illness. There is so much we can do to mobilise that talent that is not currently, and particularly women. So a number of things that I think would make a positive difference.
Senator S.Y. Mézec :
That is very helpful. We may have to copy and paste some of that.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
What are your views on introducing a statutory requirement for businesses to report on their gender pay gap?
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
It will not surprise you, and I think I said in my submission that I think statutory reporting is necessary. We had an opportunity to get the bulk of employers, particularly in finance and law, reporting. It has not happened. The issues are so pressing now, the change is so slow, that we need to speed it up. Mandating gender pay gap reporting is one way of doing that. Positively, in the last few weeks, we have seen 2 more employers share their pay gap statistics, RBC and Ogier, and well done to them. They have joined P.w.C. and the public sector, Government of Jersey, well done in sharing their statistics. That is brilliant. Some of the concerns among employers are: "If we share our statistics, because they are not going to be good, it is the reputational damage." We have not seen that because these employers have been careful to share the statistics, but also their action plans. They are demonstrating that: "We know this is a problem but we genuinely want to improve this and this is what we are doing."
[11:00]
That is really important and they probably got some kudos for being one of the first employers to do so. But that is 4 employers as far as I am aware that have shared their gender pay gap statistics, which is not nearly enough. So I would like to see mandatory reporting but with some caveats. We need to take the learning from the U.K. and improve the way in which we do it. So we should only require mandatory reporting for employers as long as we mandate that they also publish their 5-year action plan. Because we have seen a lot of words and defensiveness in the U.K. but little action. There has been no mechanism to encourage real action. I also think employers, given some of the other issues that I have raised, should be strongly encouraged and given the support to publish other diversity pay gap statistics too, such as ethnicity and social mobility and disability. The Government needs to, as Luxembourg have, actively support and help employers to produce these stats. There are lots of organisations that Government can work with to enable this. There is already some good work going on from the I.o.D. (Institute of Directors) with their D. & I. (Diversity and Inclusion) Charter. There is the Jersey Employer Group's D. & I. toolkit. We can build on that with free workshops, D. & I. mentors, perhaps the technology to help them produce their statistics. I know the Diversity Network for one would be happy to help in this regard. It is really important that we avoid tokenism. This has been perceived in some employers in the U.K. where board diversity targets are fulfilled through the engagement of female non-executives. So success should be measured through the number of women in senior board roles, C.E.O. (Chief Executive Officer), Chief Financial Officer, Chief Operating Officer, not just through a number of non-exec positions. Also through the talent pipeline, so the women across and coming up through the business too. It is important to make it clear that statutory pay gap reporting is not the solution on its own or in itself. Organisations need to achieve this through meaningful long-term succession planning, innovative and inclusive recruitment practices and genuine cultural change. Government, in partnership with third-sector organisations and business, can really help engage employers in that way. So it is with those caveats that I would not want to see it without deeper thinking.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
I was going to ask how do you think statutory reporting would impact business, but you have answered a lot of that. It is really to show that it would not be negative.
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
No. There are going to be some short-term financial impacts in terms of doing it logistically and finding the resources to produce the reporting. It may be that some organisations do have to increase their salaries to negate inequalities in pay. But the short-term pain is far outweighed by the long-term financial benefits. This argument, I do hear a lot of genuine concern about men becoming discriminated in this and a fear that the meritocracy is going to disappear. We do not have a meritocracy right now. That is not what I see.
Senator S.Y. Mézec :
There are a lot of mediocre men in senior positions as well.
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
Yes. So talented men will still have a place on our boards. It is the mediocre to poor performers that will not have. So broadening your talent base through diversity will drive up your performance. I really worry for the organisations that are not doing this because competing with the organisations who are around the world, and there are now many, will become very difficult.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
That is a huge argument that they will be actively discriminated against. The ridiculous thing to that is women are not a minority, women are half the population, so that just is a nonsense.
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
The other argument I hear a lot as well, undoubtedly having children has an impact on the pay gap, and we see it increase significantly after women have had children. It is perceived that taking time out or going into part-time roles is a choice. We need to turn that. The issue is that there is no choice but to go into part-time roles, which are perceived to be less valuable, so therefore they are paid less. That is what we need to turn on its head. It should not be a choice between having children and career. You should be able to be valued in flexible roles or part-time roles. It goes back to the argument I was talking about before; we need to turn that perception on its head. It just does not work in our modern business world. Rather than try to accommodate women, we need to shift the way we are working to accommodate our modern business needs.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
You would never think of asking a man whether he wanted a career or children. You just would not. That would be a nonsense.
Senator S.Y. Mézec :
Can I ask, on the statutory reporting, what would you say to a business on the smaller end of the scale that had concerns about just the bureaucratic requirements, given that many businesses are struggling and may see their focus being spending what little resources they have on other things rather than something like this? How would you try to persuade them?
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
I would reassure them that calculating your pay gap is not as complicated as it looks. I outlined the basic calculation. If you only have a small workforce, clearly looking at those statistics is much easier. It becomes more complex when you are looking at larger organisations, you start looking at bonuses and that kind of thing. But if you are a smaller organisation it is not as complex or as time- consuming as you might think. There is help available if they need it from organisations like myself. But that is why Government needs to be proactively providing those mechanisms to support them too. In terms of what can of worms they are potentially going to open by looking at these statistics, this is a growth opportunity. Diversity and inclusion should not be seen as a cost, it is an investment, because quite frankly in our fast-changing, increasingly-diverse world, increasing your diversity and inclusion is the only way you are going to remain competitive. So I would urge them to see this as a growth opportunity as part of their business growth strategy. So it is not something to be feared. If I were a business, I would rather own my own narrative than wait to be forced to report in a way that I perhaps do not want to. So to do it now that would be an advantage too.
Senator S.Y. Mézec :
Sure. You mentioned in some of your answers and it is in your submission as well about looking at this as intersectional issues as well with ethnicity and the impact that can have as well. What sort of things have you observed in your work about the impact, I guess of people from ethnic minorities, but in particular for women from ethnic minorities as well?
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
What have I observed? There is not much data to evidence what I am saying but you only have to look across our businesses to see very few people from our significant minority communities at the top of our businesses. These are well-established minority groups. So that is a concern. I think it is 25 per cent of the children in our schools are in Jersey Premium. You will probably know that better than I would. But it is a significant number. The Jersey Community Relations Trust, of which I am a trustee, conducted some research into social mobility and education and found that there really is a gap there. A lot of those kids do not see themselves being able to work in our major industries. That is, not only incredibly sad, but a huge issue for us as a society and a waste of talent. I just think that there is so much more that we can be doing within education. Education is a big part of this and I see that becoming a barrier in the workplace too. So I think we need businesses and education to work together and we are seeing that increasingly within some organisations. So we just do not see that diversity currently. But I do see an appetite and a desire to change that and I have said a lot of negative things but there is an appetite, there is momentum for change. It is somewhat ahead of Government I would say at the moment. So perhaps there is some learning there for some of our politicians to really listen to what businesses are saying right now.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
It would be good if everybody attended the diversity training.
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
I would have loved to have seen more than 12 States Members attend the workshop.
The Connétable of St. Martin : Instead of just paying lip-service.
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
Yes. Because that was a really positive session. There were some great actions and outcomes from it. Carving out that time to think about these things that are non-urgent in terms of the day-to- day working, but really important, is perhaps part of this.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
We have spoken a lot about what the Government could do. Is there anything further you feel that you would like to say about what the Government should do about closing the gender pay gap?
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
I have just touched on it, I gave you a little wish-list there, but I think education is really important. I was chatting to a friend today who is a teacher and she was going on to the Eisteddfod and I got very nostalgic, my kids are both now at secondary school and I said: "I remember when they were at primary school and I used to love going to watch the Eisteddfod, it was really heart-warming." Then I started telling a story, the last time I went, you go to Eisteddfod and it is largely kids from the prep schools and J.C.G. (Jersey College for Girls) and Victoria College Prep who are there and they are in large groups and well supported and they do brilliantly, the standard is so high because they have the support. Last time I went there was a young girl there who was not from one of those schools, she was the only child from her school and it was one of the St. Helier primary schools that is not necessarily moving in those same circles as the prep schools. She was clearly really nervous. She was on her own with an amazing teacher who supports her. She started off and messed up but then started again and she just shone. I thought, wow, this girl is amazing, she was from a minority ethnic background, English clearly was not her first language, and she stood up in front of 50 to 60 people on her own and recited this poem. She just shone and I wish I could remember her name because she is going places that girl. She can do that now, what can she do? Then as I was driving I thought: "Gosh, will she though?" This is what is really sad. Will she see an opportunity for her in our major industries or are there still too many barriers? Will she not fulfil her potential because of this seniority gap, this pay gap, these barriers, these cultural issues? Or will she succeed but have to succeed elsewhere and take her talent elsewhere? I just wanted to share that story because that is what this is about, it is those young girls in school who at the moment are written off before they have even started, unless they do have that tremendous bravery to confront the system and overcome it. It is those girls that we should be working to see at the top of our businesses in 10, 15, 20 years' time.
Senator S.Y. Mézec :
There are some very difficult discussions being had about school funding and looking at the schools in St. Helier in particular where they are packed to the brim. There are children in St. Helier whose parents have to stick them in traffic in the morning to get them to schools outside of St. Helier rather than walking them there in the morning. There is some work looking at school funding and school places in St. Helier in particular. Do you think there is anything specific the Government could do separate to those issues in our schools to help perhaps with instilling that aspiration in those young people, whether they are from minority groups or female students, and giving them the opportunities that they might not get because they are at the schools where they get less spent per student than some of the other schools?
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
Increasing the spending and the support. I admire the teachers working in these schools so much. I am not an education expert, so I do not want to talk beyond my level of understanding, but they are working with groups of kids, large groups of kids for whom English is not a first language, whose parents perhaps cannot provide the support because of the language barriers. There are tremendous issues to overcome that you do not see in other schools.
[11:15]
So I do wonder the way in which the system works that we have kids like that all together in one school. Is it unhelpful. We are a small Island; it should not be difficult to ensure that all our schools are more diverse. That is of benefit to all our kids. So that is certainly something that strikes me. But we need to work really hard. There is something about teacher training, these stereotypes start before we are even born, but there is so much more that we can be doing early on in schools to inspire children. Role models, giving them access to that. Something that the Diversity Network was looking at, and I hope to reinvigorate at some point, we were looking at social mobility and how we can break down those barriers in the workplace. We have Trident, which is a fantastic work experience scheme, but it is not enough. There is evidence to suggest that a child needs perhaps 4 really good quality work experiences before they get that lightbulb moment and say: "You know what, I could do this. This is for me." Perhaps a mentor for those who do not have the support at home, a mentor to see them through their school years, to help answer those silly questions. Give them access, open doors, all those privileges that kids like me had, very lucky, because I was middleclass. So I think we can look more innovatively at how business and education works together. But investment is at the root of it.
Senator S.Y. Mézec :
In terms of things like bursaries and internships that businesses give, do you think there is much thinking going on about how those schemes can be used to give opportunities to people who might otherwise have not had them? I will just give one anecdotal example from when I was a student and was training to be a lawyer at the time and was very lucky with the bursary I got. It was fundamental to me in terms of affording my tuition fees and books and the rest of it. I knew somebody who happened to go to a fee-paying school who had, not one, but 2 bursaries, and in terms of the access to the employment opportunity that was great for this person. But they were not the most needy when it came to the money side of things for paying for tuition fees and books and the rest of it. They had 2 bursaries from 2 different firms. I just kind of think that there may have been somebody from not as advantaged a background who would have really benefited from that
opportunity. That was 10 years ago though. Do you think there is much thinking going on particularly
about bursaries and internships for, not just seeking out the person who you are absolutely confident will be a star in the future, but somebody who you think with that extra support could have the potential and they are from a background that would really benefit from that.
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
I do not see much evidence of that. Like you said, mine was even longer ago, I got a bursary through a private school in the U.K. and I was one of those kids who was not the most needy. I am not sure that much has changed. It did enable me to go to school, my parents could not afford it otherwise, but I had a very good state education too. So I do not see that an awful lot has changed. That said, there are some brilliant and really quite innovative schemes emerging. I know of one, for example, that was sponsored by HSBC and was a project that was brought across from the Princess Diana Trust in the U.K. So States of Jersey Police worked with a number of N.E.E.T. (not in employment, education or training) children, so the kids most likely to potentially fall off the rails for lack of support. They worked with HSBC to mentor these kids and I understand that the results were phenomenal. The confidence and the aspiration in these kids was palpable. That was not difficult to do. HSBC was able to provide the funding and the States of Jersey Police did some fantastic work in providing the mentors. I know one or 2 of the police who were mentors and they got so much out of it too. So that is just such a brilliant example of a business and community-based project that can have real dividends in terms of breaking down some of those social barriers. So there are examples of it going on, we just need more of that.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
This is probably more diversity than gender pay gap, but leading on to what good work some of the police can do, one of the things that is overlooked a lot is our Honorary Police Force. Our Honorary Police Force, there are 12 languages that they can speak in our force.
Co-Founder, Diversity Network: That is brilliant.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
We have Portuguese, Romanian, Polish, Latvian. We have one who speaks Jèrriais, so yes. That is another one we can add. We have such a diverse network and it is really encouraged.
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
That is brilliant. That is not necessarily reflected, as we discussed in the workshop we ran, which was about increasing diversity and it is not necessarily reflected in other parish roles or committees, but it shows what can be done. That gives us hope, does it not?
The Connétable of St. Martin :
We have amazing, the ages from early-20s up, we have some fantastic young women in the Honorary Police.
Co-Founder, Diversity Network: That is brilliant.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
I just thought I would get that out there.
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
I am glad, we need to take the learning from that, how you did it, how you attracted that diversity. Because it shows it is entirely possible.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
It is in a lot of the parishes. I think people have this view that they are all staged, but they are not at all, it is amazing.
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
One of our parishes has approached the Diversity Network for some D. & I. training for their staff, so that is great that we are starting to see.
The Connétable of St. Martin : Yes, we have diversity training, yes.
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
Parish committees and groups and employers thinking about these things, so that is progress definitely.
The Connétable of St. Martin : It is progress.
Senator S.Y. Mézec :
We are a little bit ahead of time and the last question that I had on the list to ask was what recommendations would you make to Government. You did give us a really helpful answer and you can repeat it if you like. We will certainly make a note of that. Unless Karen had anything?
The Connétable of St. Martin :
No, nothing else really, it has been very good.
Senator S.Y. Mézec :
A good question to end on really is that, if there is one message you wanted to get across, not just to us, but to whoever else may be paying attention, whether they are watching or reporting on this or what we may end up focusing on in our report?
Co-Founder, Diversity Network:
The key to helping to close the gender pay gap is to look at making part-time working and flexible working accessible to everybody, not just women. But value those roles much more highly so that they are better paid; that they can be held in senior positions and you can progress your career when working in a part-time or flexible role/
Senator S.Y. Mézec :
Thank you very much, we really appreciate your contribution. I therefore call the hearing to a close.
[11:23]