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Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel
Government Review 2022 - 2025 Witness: The Minister for Infrastructure
Tuesday, 26th October 2021
Panel:
Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade (Chair) Connétable J.E. Le Maistre of Grouville (Vice-Chair) Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin
Deputy G.J. Truscott of St. Brelade
Witnesses:
Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour , The Minister for Infrastructure Ms. E. Littlechild, Group Director, Operations and Transport
Mr. T. Daniels, Director, Jersey Property Holdings
Ms. L. Magris, Head of Sustainability, S.P.P.P.
Mr. T. Dodd, Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure
[11:33]
Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade (Chair):
Good morning, Minister, and welcome to the Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel for a public review hearing for the Government Plan 2022 to 2025. I will commence by introducing our team. I am Mike Jackson , Constable of St. Brelade , chairman of the panel.
Connétable J.E. Le Maistre of Grouville (Vice-Chair):
John Le Maistre, Constable of Grouville , vice-chair of the panel.
Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin : Deputy Steve Luce , Deputy of St. Martin .
Deputy G.J. Truscott of St. Brelade :
Deputy Graham Truscott of St. Brelade District 2 and panel member.
The Minister for Infrastructure:
Deputy Kevin Lewis , Minister for Infrastructure.
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
Ellen Littlechild, group director for Operations and Transport.
Director, Jersey Property Holdings:
Tim Daniels, director of Jersey Property Holdings.
Head of Sustainability, S.P.P.P.:
Louise Magris, head of sustainability, S.P.3. (Strategic Policy, Performance and Population).
The Minister for Infrastructure: I think that is it for the time being.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I shall commence therefore with the discussions regarding the increased liquid waste processing costs. Minister, the Government Plan 2022 notes a funding allocation of £250,000 for 2022 for this new programme. This is the need to absorb the additional liquid waste processing costs and consequently required increased funding to enable the processing of the additional volume of foul and surface water and sewage produced, it suggests. Can you outline how the allocated funding for 2022 will be apportioned and what do you anticipate achieving as a result of these funds?
The Minister for Infrastructure:
If I can hand you over to Ellen Littlechild, group director, Operations and Transport.
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
The £250,000 is required within the pumping stations and the tanker service. We have seen an increased cost in electricity with managing our pumping stations and of that £250,000 we see approximately probably about £170,000 is required because of the increased electricity cost for what we are currently seeing what we are spending against the budgets that we currently have allocated. The balance is to do with some of the maintenance that we have within liquid waste but also relates to our increased cost to do with tanker transportation. We have had certainly in the last 2 years a lot of wet weather over the winter. We have had a lot of increased costs in using our own tankers but as well as contracted tankers in going to our critical pumping stations to avoid pollution events. That is what the costs relate to.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
A reason given for the increase in liquid waste is due to population growth, increased households connected to the mains system and increased rainfall due to climate change, as you mentioned. Considering that these contributing factors are unresolved are you confident that the funding for the programme will be sufficient to accomplish the programmes' aims now in going forward? Funding estimates for subsequent years are also £250,000 each year to 2025. Will this level of funding be appropriate?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
We hope within this Government Plan timetable over the next 4 years that it will be appropriate. Obviously there is an increased population that we know that we have an issue with the surface water getting into the foul system. This is the knock-on impact on our revenue expenditure. We are hoping ... I do not necessarily say it will be mitigated but maybe stop it getting further if we can do some more foul and surface water schemes. We can try and do more investigations to stop getting the surface water into the foul network. Because obviously we do not want to be spending lots of money pumping clean water around the Island.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Are there any particular hotspots in the Island still requiring attention in this regard?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
We have a number of projects all over the Island so, yes, there are areas that we are looking at and record them in different catchments, so we have our own internal investigation team that goes and meets with householders, business owners, to review those areas because ideally our system can cope when it is not wet weather. It is when we have wet weather, that is when our system gets beat sometimes and we have to understand where and how all that surface water gets into the system. We have areas, as we know, within Trinity . There are different pockets of issues across the Island.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Is there any way of reducing the electricity consumption of the pumping stations by upgrading equipment? Does modern equipment use less electricity?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
It does not have a big effect on the equipment. The only thing that we could do to try and reduce electricity is trying to manage the flows and when we are pumping around our network. That is very challenging to do. We have a very good telemetry system and we look at how we are managing that. I think we probably optimise that to our best at the moment. I really think our biggest issue is to keep focusing on trying to get the surface water out of the system. As you also know, Chair, we have within St. Helier a lot of combined sewer still. Again, we have got to progress over this next 4- year period to start trying to look again at how we can separate that moving forward.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Does that mean more holes in the road?
Group Director, Operations and Transport: Unfortunately there is always a downside to these projects.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Moving, Minister, to hazardous waste. The project summary outlines that it is difficult to budget for the fluctuations and the volumes of hazardous waste and as a result of low levels of waste for 2020 and 2021 there has been a significant budget deficit, which cannot be absorbed by the department. Is it anticipated that waste volumes will remain low up to 2025? The additional funding will take into account the lower income generated through levies, given that a levy is charged per tonne of hazardous waste. Can you clarify what type of waste is classified as hazardous?
The Minister for Infrastructure: That is Ellen again.
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
The hazardous waste is the type of material that we are looking maybe at some of the new Finance Centre or when we are doing certain dig-outs where when we have gone through and tested that material it has a certain amount of components, that means that it has to be dealt with differently. It is usually in this case put into lined cells at our waste facility at La Collette. With regards to budgets and income it does fluctuate year on year, so as an example for this year we have a budget for hazardous waste income of just over £1.6 million. What we are forecasting is £278,000. In some years it could be £2 million depending on the works that are going on at the moment. We do not expect, certainly once the International Finance Centre is done and some of the works there, that we are going to get significant amounts of hazardous waste in the future. We will have smaller amounts but I do not think we will achieve the income targets that we have perhaps received over the last 2, 3, 4 years. Effectively this is to support us should we need the money. I think the Treasury are looking at almost giving us some money for 2022 but then doing a review to look at where this money could come from, maybe from their contingency reserve in the future. So on the years that we do require it the Treasury will have some reserves to be able to support us. If we achieve over our target then obviously we would give that money back to the Treasury.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
The question was aimed at the previous round of questions but maybe I could ask one about this one then. Could I ask Ellen, inside this £1.25 million are you aiming to put together any more engineered cells to take this hazardous waste or is that accounted for in another funding stream?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
We have done some projects this year, so we are obviously still building at La Collette. As we see, La Collette keeps going up and up. Hopefully we will not need to have the same number of cells and our cells will last for a longer period moving forward. But we have certainly got the cells ready because we are expecting hazardous waste this year, but it has got delayed with the work so we are expecting some of that now next year. So we may not require the full amount that we set aside from the Treasury with the works that is happening with the I.F.C. (International Finance Centre). But, yes, we will still require cells but hopefully not as many as we have had in recent years.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Are you aware if there is any construction plan or phased construction plan from government to enable you to establish what the need for provision for hazardous waste might be? It seems to me that this £1.25 million is really a contingency, given the absence of clear information. Am I correct in assuming that?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
We can certainly plan for the next 2 years ahead but it is trying to have some longer-term plans, appreciating that they are going to change with the industry. As well as S.o.J.D.C. (States of Jersey Development Company) and some of the government's arm length organisations, to understand what projects they have got in and what their requirements are. My colleagues that work within the waste division, they deal closely with those contractors. I think we are quite good at forecasting a year or 2 years. It is very difficult to forecast over 4 or 5 years because the industry changes so regularly.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Given that we are now proceeding with the subject of planning approval with the construction of the hospital at Overdale, do you anticipate any hazardous waste coming from that site?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
There may be some from the Overdale site so I believe there are but I have not seen yet. Obviously they have not yet pulled together their waste management plans, which they will have on those developments. I think there may have been some early discussions with the team but I could not certainly say how much waste we would be expecting from that site.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Would you expect the waste management plan to be produced as part of the planning application?
Group Director, Operations and Transport: Yes.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Hopefully we will see that soon. Just to conclude on that one, given that no funding has been estimated beyond 2022 for this programme, and the indications are that you suggest reduced waste volumes are expected to continue until 2025, is that the result of upcoming wider reviews on waste management arrangements to be proposed in the 2023-2026 plan?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
I think there are some thoughts that that can be aligned. But depending on what happens with waste management and whether we look at a possible commercial waste charge in the future, whether that could offset some of the shortfall that we have within hazardous waste.
[11:45]
I think there are future discussions for us to have with our Treasury and Exchequer colleagues and those within S.P.3. From a practitioner point of view, managing the waste sites, we know that we will have income challenges in 2023 and onwards, and we need to have further discussions with the Treasury to make sure that within their contingency funds there is money available to support us.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Thank you. Moving on, Minister, to the bus contract. I am not sure who is best placed to respond to that.
The Minister for Infrastructure:
We have Tristen Dodd responsible for the bus contract, who is with us now.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
So, Tristen, if you just introduce yourself and your role that would help the recording please.
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:
My name is Tristen Dodd, and I am the Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Thank you. We were informed that a total of £1,021,000 has been paid in COVID-19 response payments to LibertyBus for the period of May to December 2020. You noted that no further payments have been made in 2021. Considering an amount of £2 million has been allocated for 2021, should an underspend remain for this year, how will the remaining funds be utilised or recovered?
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:
If there is an underspend my assumption is it goes back to the Treasury. That is not our money, that is money that has been provided by Treasury to cover the response to COVID. It is highly likely that we will not need all of that money unless something particularly untoward happens this winter.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Given the payments have not been made in 2021 to date, is this a result of the operator no longer operating at a loss and if so, when did the operator begin to return a profit?
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:
Obviously we do not have the operator's accounts in yet but where we are at is that bus ridership remains down at about 65 per cent of 2019 levels. But the operator has reduced his operating costs. Until we have the accounts for the year we will not know exactly where he is at and the determination of whether any additional COVID support is required will be made on the basis of that.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Given that the payments were to support the operator during the pandemic, are we correct in assuming that no return has been made to the Treasury for investment in the Island infrastructure during this time?
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:
I would have to come back to you on that but yes, that would seem to flow.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
The mid-year review notes that service levels remain; it suggested 40 per cent to 45 per cent low pre-pandemic levels. Considering restrictions have been eased, in your view why do service levels remain at around half capacity and do you anticipate levels will reach the pre-pandemic levels? Has that been projected at all?
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:
It is a really interesting question, and I think transport authorities across the world are trying to answer that. There has obviously been a change in customer confidence to a degree although in the summertime, because we saw people using the buses, I think there is also a change in working habits. A number of people who are working as we are now online or working 2 or 3 days a week at home, all has an impact on that. I think the jury is out on that still. I do not think any authority has come to a conclusion yet.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I suppose it is difficult for you therefore to anticipate any return in profits being made or payments being made to the government for 2022? Have you any idea? Have there been any discussions as to when that might start?
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:
Not yet, but we are not anticipating anything significant at this stage.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
We noted in the Government Plan for 2022 that funding of £1.2 million has been requested for 2022. Do you feel this level of funding will be sufficient to provide the necessary support next year?
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure: Yes, I do.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
What analysis has been undertaken to arrive at that amount?
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:
The amount that was provided for COVID support was basically ... those figures were developed based on last year, so it is a finger in the air of what could happen if we returned to lockdown and we had to continue services again; so worse-case scenario.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
How do you expect any underspends to be recovered should the option arise?
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:
The money for COVID is for COVID and so if we do not spend it we do not receive it. It is an amount that we can draw down from.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
The mid-year review notes that staffing levels were reduced to accommodate the reduced service. What methods were used to reduce the staffing levels?
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:
It is my understanding it was natural retirements and the like.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
I was sort of hoping to get in on the end of this one but I just wanted to ask Tristen, I think we are all disappointed that maybe levels of bus participation have not recovered more quickly, but you acknowledge that. Can I ask what you intend to do or how you intend to re-encourage people back on to buses given the sustainable transport policy, et cetera, is looking to increase bus participation? To have it going backwards at this stage is disappointing.
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:
You are right, so what we have is a rapid bus plan, which is being developed by the policy unit. Within that we are looking at the ticketing options, what form the contract might take in the future, what route enhancements government may wish to make.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Going back to staffing levels, what consideration, if any, has been given to how staffing levels will be increased to support the service once demand increases to normal levels? Are you aware of what LibertyBus might be proposing from that point of view?
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:
LibertyBus have an in-house training staff where they train drivers up on the routes and they get licensed to the routes. I would not foresee a step-change in activity levels. It is much more likely to be gradual as people's habits change or as the bus service readjusts to the market. Because it depends on what happens in terms of tourism as well as people's habits in terms of returning to the office, et cetera.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Given the challenges regarding recruitment across industries generally in the Island, how do you anticipate these sort of challenges might be addressed by LibertyBus, who will no doubt be faced with the same problems that others are having?
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:
I have not had any feedback from LibertyBus on that as of yet. But you are right, there might well be an upward pressure on salaries, like there are in many industries. What you can offer really with the bus service is a stable source of employment, which offers professional development, particularly within LibertyBus where they have got a culture of bringing people up from driving, up through management. So I think it is a bit like ourselves within government, what we are offering is a structured career where you have advancements available if you wish to pursue it.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Moving, Minister, to The Parade. You suggest that you will continue to pay for the rent over 28-30 The Parade to provide flexibility as part of a longer-term estate strategy. In our review of the previous Government Plan we recommended that you should ensure further information is provided in the next plan progress review update, as well as any future Government Plans as to how 28-30 The Parade will be utilised and how arrangements will provide the best value for money. Considering that little information has been provided, can you provide further detail in that regard please? How is The Parade being utilised and by who?
The Minister for Infrastructure:
If I can hand over to Mr. Tim Daniels, head of Property Holdings.
Director, Jersey Property Holdings:
The Parade is currently in use by the Regulation Department, Team Jersey and the COVID support team and the COVID helpline, with the ground floor area being used for press briefings. The building came to Property Holdings as a result of the previous hospital project and it had been taken on to provide relief space so that when the General Hospital, the Granite building was being developed, the medical staff had somewhere to go. We have been using it as overflow space but it was fortuitous that we had it on the books, certainly for the COVID response, in terms of our ability to occupy it less densely at the time but also to use it to reduce the prospect of infection. So it has been used. We are currently getting rent from Team Jersey and there are internal transfers for the COVID response and for the Regulation Department.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Do you expect it being used in conjunction with the new hospital at Overdale?
Director, Jersey Property Holdings:
We took on an assignment of a 20-year lease, which terminates in July 2023. At that point we will be moving towards the new office block. We will have to look at how we manage the space but the intention is not to extend The Parade beyond the termination of the lease.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
You mentioned that Team Jersey is cross-charged for occupying space there and is paying an annual rental of £109,268. Considering the annual rent is £918,425, is any other money being recouped. You spoke of cross transfers but what is the total income that The Parade has generated to date? In your view, is the continued leasing of it providing value for money for the taxpayer and is there any way of improving that?
Director, Jersey Property Holdings:
We were presented with a fait accompli when the previous hospital project was not successful so we are mitigating the building by using it. It is a challenge but, as I say, I think for COVID it was fortuitous that we had it and it did give us a breathing space, but that is why we will not be looking to extend the lease beyond 2023.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Moving to the Climate Emergency Fund and sustainable transport. Sorry, Deputy Luce , another question.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
You mentioned Regulation Team. Do you mean the Planning Department? So the Planning Department are paying rent to be in that building are they?
Director, Jersey Property Holdings: Yes.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
How does the Minister feel getting the Planning Department out of South Hill where they paid no rent and then putting them somewhere else where they have to find a sizeable amount of their income in rental?
The Minister for Infrastructure:
Sadly, I think the whole portfolio at the moment is a giant Rubik cube; that we have to get one building ready before we can move people across. But, as Tim said, we had the building there so it was good to use it.
Director, Jersey Property Holdings:
If I may, Minister and Deputy Luce , there would have been an internal transfer of funds for use at South Hill as well. The opportunity to get the Planning and the Regulation Department together under one roof with people moving out of Howard Davis Farm to be able to co-locate meant that there was a distinct advantage to using The Parade. So you are right, there would have been a different level of transfer and this building is more expensive but it would have provided an operational advantage and we are still able to recoup some of the funds.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
This is probably for Louise. An allocation of £500,000 was made for 2021 for carbon neutral and sustainable transport policy development.
[12:00]
Can you clarify what portion has been spent on sustainable transport policy development to date?
Head of Sustainability, S.P.P.P.:
I cannot tell you the exact number because I do not have that to hand but I can clarify that back. But what it will be on is the 4 rapid plan pieces of work that were carried out in accordance with the sustainable transport plan; so the bus development plan, the mobility strategy, the car parking review, and I cannot remember the last one off the top of my head right now. But it is the 4 rapid plans. It will be that piece of work that has been the balance of spend. Just to say of the £500,000 that you are referring to, quite a large proportion of that was spent on the citizens' assembly as well on climate change. Of course some of the citizens' assembly work focused on sustainable transport initiatives as well. I would say probably on balance it is about half, but I can get you those exact figures because obviously those are priced pieces of work.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
You mentioned that the rapid plans outlined in the policy are currently underway and all but one, the bus service development plan, is due to be completed by the end of this year. In respect of that - now due to be completed in 2022 - you noted delays resultant of resourcing issues. Can you provide further detail regarding these challenges in resourcing impacting the progress of the bus service development plan and the approach being taken to address this?
Head of Sustainability, S.P.P.P.:
The resourcing problems that we have dealt with there were due to the fact that in 2020 the entire policy team were pivoted on to the public health response for COVID. Of course what that meant was that none of the work that we would have liked to have begun last year, or very much the majority of the work that we would have liked to have got done last year, a lot of it spilled into early this year. Then recognising that the team were then pivoted on to running the citizens' assembly, which again should have happened a year before, that is where the snowball effect around resourcing has happened. What I can happily report is that we recruited a new sustainable transport policy officer to the team - I think you have met her before in Scrutiny hearings - and she joined our team last December and has been working full time with us since then. She has been able to start to pick that work up and take a hold of it. Obviously she is working very closely with technical experts in I.H.E. (Infrastructure, Housing and Environment), in the department, so we feel that we are catching up. But I think the honest answer is that we would have preferred to be further along on this journey. It is COVID that has held us back.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
When do you anticipate the strategic review of the bus service to be complete and outcomes published?
Head of Sustainability, S.P.P.P.:
That will be early next year I expect. Then of course that is a piece of work that will then feed into the renegotiation of the new bus contract. What we will do is look for a policy steer on what it is we think will work to attract people to the bus service. So the conversation that you were having earlier with Tris about how we make that a more attractive option for people. Then the outcomes of that will feed into the new contract, which of course will be over the next 2 to 3 years because it is quite a big piece of work. Early next year. But it is worth mentioning that the sustainable transport work, much of the outcomes of the rapid analysis review is being picked up and turned into policy initiatives, which will be seen in the carbon neutral roadmap, which will be published in early December.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
£300,000 has been allocated for policy development for 2022. Can you outline how the allocated funds will be apportioned - for example to which policy areas - and what do you anticipate achieving as a result of these funds?
Head of Sustainability, S.P.P.P.:
This is ongoing work in the policy development area, so this will be work around, for example, taking the outcomes of the rapid analysis work, new evidence pieces that we will need, public engagement that we will need around the carbon neutral roadmap and other policy initiatives. So that is very much around policy development and policy officer time and energy. The majority of the carbon neutral roadmap is of course, as you know, going to be spent on the actual initiatives to change behaviour, to increase attractiveness to sustainable transport. Those will be technical pieces and officer time in order to take and work up policy areas and do consultation.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Could I just ask you, Louise, you mentioned the various delays in policy that we have had, and it is understandable with COVID and various other things? But are you short of resource in this direction because it is quite clear to me that when something new comes along something else has to suffer, which would indicate that you do not have much flexibility within the team? I wonder whether when we get into 2022 how you are going to take on these new policy initiatives.
Head of Sustainability, S.P.P.P.:
It is a very good observation, it is a good point. I think it is fair to say that the team have been very stretched this year in the policy development space which, as you know, has been extensive. We have had the citizens' assembly, we have turned that into the in-committee debate, we are about to publish the preferred strategy on carbon neutral which encompasses sustainable transport. I think it is fair to say this year we have thrown a lot of effort at that. Of course you have heard from me in previous hearings that the downside to focusing on that new direction put to us by the States Assembly in terms of prioritising sustainable transport and the climate emergency has been that other areas of policy development have suffered. So I know that you have asked me many times where we are with the new waste strategy, and I have had to give the answer that that needed to be deprioritised because of this other work. I think your observation is right, that when something has to give, and in this case it has been other policy pieces of work. I think what we will be putting forward going into next year are the delivery mechanisms for the climate emergency. One of the things that the carbon neutral roadmap will do was it will outline the requirements and resourcing needed to deliver on the policies that will bring about our response to the climate emergency and helping Jersey to be carbon neutral. Within the carbon neutral roadmap we will be putting a proposal for size of team and the kind of resources that we think are necessary for that. Because I think what your question was is: how does this team keep picking that up? I think we are going to be very clear in the carbon neutral roadmap that it is not possible to carry on delivering on an enormous piece of policy that absolutely needs to be done. It will not be possible to keep doing that with the existing policy team. There will need to be an increased resource . That will be outlined in the carbon neutral roadmap. In theory, if that is agreed by the Assembly and that team is recruited to bring about these policies and the expenditure in the area of climate emergency sustainable transport, then it will free up the core team to be picking up on those pieces of work that have so far suffered. Things like the waste strategy that I know is a concern to us all.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
We understand that £3.2 million was allocated to sustainable transport initiatives for 2021. In written response you provided a total spend to September 2021 of £739,900. Can you explain the significant underspend and is it envisaged that a portion will still be spent by the end of 2021 and any remaining funds in 2022?
Head of Sustainability, S.P.P.P.:
The £3.2 million allocation came from the profiling of the Climate Emergency Fund from the year before. This was money that was being allocated to be spent on policy. Whatever those policies might be to improve the availability of sustainable transport options. Of course there was a large sum of money for that because those policies have a cost attributed to them. They might be, for example, and I am not using a particular example that may or may not be relevant, but subsidised bus passes would be the kind of policy you might have expected to see that money being spent on. Because we have been delayed, because of COVID, because the citizens' assembly took that much longer, it meant that those policies were not in place and therefore that expenditure could not go ahead because we have not got those policies in place or agreed. The money that you have seen spent, the £700,000 was on the strong start initiatives that were left over, if you like, from 2020 and were delivered in 2021. You are absolutely right, there was a large underspend because we have not had the policies agreed by the States Assembly to start spending that money on. What of course I can say is that that money remains in the fund. It rolls forward and it is available for the policies that will come out of the carbon neutral roadmap. While of course we are all frustrated that those policies are not enacted and are not in place and are not bringing about the benefits that we know they should in terms of carbon reduction, the money remains available for when the carbon neutral roadmap is agreed and then the expenditure can be devoted to those policies.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
That leads to the £3,785,000 being allocated in 2022 for the same sustainable transport initiatives, so how will that be apportioned and do you anticipate it to be sufficient to meet the aims of 2022?
Head of Sustainability, S.P.P.P.:
That is absolutely right. What we have done in this year's Government Plan is we have wrapped up the balance of the Climate Emergency Fund into carbon neutral roadmap initiatives, which includes sustainable transport. What is proposed in next year's Government Plan is expenditure of around £3.7 million for that whole policy package and then going forward, £5.7 million - I am looking at the table out of the corner of my eye - £6.3 million and £4.7 million over the next 4 years of the Climate Emergency Fund. That is table 50 in the proposed Government Plan. The exact proportion and the exact policies that that money will be spent on will be in the carbon neutral roadmap, which will be released in December. At the moment, those policies are being developed. There is a carbon neutral steering group chaired by Gregory Guida, which the Minister for Infrastructures sits on, which
is working up the exact policies that that spending will support. I am afraid I cannot give you those details yet because that is still policy under development but it is quite close to coming out in the public domain. The preferred strategy for the carbon neutral roadmap will explain the development of those policy areas. and that will be published next week. But the full details and the exact policies that the States Assembly will be asked to agree will come out in early December ahead of the Government Plan debate. I think that is to come. Unfortunately I cannot give you those details right now but it is a package of expenditure which picks up on the recommendations of the citizens' assembly and the work that we have done this year to come up with those policies. The second part of your question I think was: is that enough? The answer is no. We have been very clear from the very beginning. The Minister was very clear in the very early days of the climate emergency. The Climate Emergency Fund is about £23 million over the next 4 years and that is not enough to reach the rates of decarbonisation that would lead us to carbon neutrality by 2030. The Minister has been very clear about that, and the Council of Ministers as well. The preferred strategy will explain that more. There is an outline in the proposed Government Plan this time round, which talks about some additional revenue that might be raised from additional revenue streams that could then be put back into the Climate Emergency Fund to help top it up. So accelerate those policy objectives and the cost of them supported by that further income. I am afraid more money is needed.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Inevitably. I am not sure if my next one is for you or for Tris. Are you aware of any support initiatives being provided to private business to advance government's ambitions for the carbon neutral strategy and sustainable transport? Is consideration being given to how private-public collaboration can be accelerated for rapid achievement of the aims?
Head of Sustainability, S.P.P.P.:
That is a really good point. One of the things that we are very clear on is that there are direct costs to government in funding the climate emergency and some of the decarbonisation of our economy will happen at the individual level by individual choices in expenditure and at the business level. We have been clear that even with Climate Emergency Fund and any additional revenue that might come from initiatives that the Assembly approves, for example a road user charge or other economic levers, even with that the quantum of cost of addressing the climate emergency to reach neutrality by 2030 is still so significant that we would need to look to other innovative options to fund. Of course this is not just Jersey facing this problem. It is a global problem: how do we decarbonise an economy that has taken several hundred years to carbonise?. I think the point there in the question around innovative options, public-private partnerships, those sorts of options are absolutely on our agenda. To look at how we can partner or how we can leverage funding to help people from the individual level, right the way through to organisational and to government level achieve decarbonisation. That is work that will have to be undertaken to meet the macroeconomic challenge that is addressing the climate emergency.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
What is your view regarding mandating active travel plans that require an element of share transport to be approved for new commercial or residential developments, which would contribute to a cleaner environment and less traffic congestion?
Head of Sustainability, S.P.P.P.:
That is exactly the sort of policy area where we are working for the carbon neutral roadmap, so those sorts of ideas.
[12:15]
That idea of making sustainable transport options easy and available for people. Supporting businesses to develop those is something that I think you will see in the carbon neutral roadmap. I am really sorry that I cannot be clearer but that is still policy under development and not signed off by the carbon neutral steering group. I am sure you can imagine that that is exactly the sort of thing that we need to be able to do as a community, to change travel habits. In particular, getting people out of single person occupancy, commuter journeys, that scenario where we see a lot of traffic congestion that in theory has a lot of opportunity to shift.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
We look forward to seeing that. Perhaps you could clarify any work underway to convert the States fleet to electric and is consideration being given to a shared electric fleet for use among States employees?
Head of Sustainability, S.P.P.P.:
Again, exactly the right answer. So part of the rapid plan work, we have been doing. The Energy Saving Trust has done a review of the government fleet. Not just the government fleet, the actual vehicles itself so of course we know that we have lots of working vehicles. We have lots of passenger vehicles that are used for things like family nursing and home care visits, those sorts of things. But also the grey fleet, which is people using personal vehicles for government business, because of course that happens. An example of the work that we are doing and the evidence pieces that we are working on at the moment is that kind of a review. That looks at how one might bring policies in to leverage the costs of moving to an electric fleet because in some instances it is more expensive. Or to product replacement opportunities, which again have an increased cost. Those sorts of review of the evidence pieces that we are working on to deliver our policy objectives and to put forward policy proposals for the States Assembly to vote on.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Can you update us on any work being undertaken to review the legislation to allow a broader range of electric vehicles on Jersey roads in order for Jersey to take advantage of all the innovation and shared electric transport? It is our understanding that some types of electric vehicles which are legal in the E.U. (European Union) are not legal in Jersey.
Head of Sustainability, S.P.P.P.:
That is exactly right. Of course, as you are well aware, the reason for some of that is concerns around road safety and multi-use of the road system. I am not the person to give detail on that and I know that the Minister has a view, so I will hand back to him. But suffice to say, that is exactly the sort of review work that will come out of this, is the necessity to look at what is appropriate for Jersey and enable it or to decide that maybe some things are or are not for us and that the legislation should lead to improved road safety for other road users. I will stop at that point and maybe hand to the Minister and Tris, who might be able to give you a fuller update on the legislation in that area.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Thank you. Before we go back, Deputy Luce .
The Deputy of St. Martin :
I just wanted to ask a question of the Minister. Louise has just mentioned the obvious need for some additional funding streams to feed into the Climate Emergency Fund. But is it the Minister's view that road use tax is top of the list to do that?
The Minister for Infrastructure:
I was one of the people to go to Chelsea Hotel for my road tax, which was done away with many decades ago now. But obviously with the advent of electric vehicles we are not having the additional funds that come from the fuel tax or the few p that was put on petrol and diesel. Although that is not making huge inroads yet, we know that down the line it will obviously as electric and other powered vehicles take off. So that is something that will need to be looked at in the not-too-distant future.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Could I just say then that you are looking to a road use tax to replace the fuel levy? What then will you do about the additional funding streams needed for climate emergency if that road tax is only going to replace one? Where is the new money coming from, Minister?
The Minister for Infrastructure:
This is all policy under development at the moment because it has not really impinged as yet, but there is a question on that.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
You must have some ideas, Minister, where you are going to raise funds from.
The Minister for Infrastructure:
As I say, that is still policy under development. The team are looking at all options.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
I am not asking you for what is black and white; I am just asking you for what your thoughts are on where we might have some ideas about going to raise some money, but it does not matter.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Minister, we have seen in the past road tax on horse power, we have seen it on vehicle length, there is sometimes contention over vehicle width. What would your preferred route be?
The Minister for Infrastructure:
Obviously we will try to keep the vehicle width down as much as possible. It is becoming increasingly difficult to get the narrower-gauge vehicles because people tend not to be making them. It is only a few small island nations and of course places like Cornwall that use the smaller vehicles. Tristen might be able to help on that one. But they are becoming increasingly difficult to come by. But they are still there but they are more expensive. Do you want to come in, Louise?
Head of Sustainability, S.P.P.P.:
Yes, Minister, if you do not mind. I am happy to pick up on the sorts of policy initiatives that might be revenue-raisers but also might guide the vehicle and weight and types of vehicles that we may or may not wish to incentivise on the road. Recognising of course that there are commercial vehicles
that have commercial jobs to do and therefore fulfil a certain function and there probably are no alternatives available. Vehicle emissions duty provides quite a good lever for incentivising or non- incentivising punitive measures to change the type of vehicles that we welcome for registration in Jersey. You will have seen in this year's Government Plan that in the personal cars category there will be a significant increase in the vehicle emissions duty on registration of the most-carbon-emitting vehicles. So your question before was what sort of things might we use to differentiate between vehicles. At the moment in the Government Plan there is a proposal to increase V.E.D. (vehicle emissions duty) significantly on highly-carbon-emitting vehicles. But of course in time to come vehicle emissions duty could easily have additional factors taken into account. For example, vehicle weight or vehicle width. That would be quite difficult to do. I am not saying it is particularly where we would go. But I think the use of V.E.D. upon registration is quite helpful. What it can also do, as is proposed in this year's Government Plan, is it can differentiate between vehicles. So, for example, purchasing a new passenger vehicle, a car vehicle, is a discretionary purchase. Purchasing a new commercial vehicle contributes to business activity. V.E.D. is not going to change for that category but in terms of discretionary spend in high-carbon-emitting vehicles, V.E.D. will go up significantly, or is proposed to go up significantly next year. So to send the signal that is not where people should be considering their purchase habits. They should be looking to lower-emission vehicles or in fact zero-carbon vehicles, if possible.
The Minister for Infrastructure:
Obviously we are 9 by 5 so electric cars and such like are perfect for Jersey. Because we do not have the huge mileage that they would have in the U.K. (United Kingdom) and elsewhere. But obviously with commercial vehicles, electrification, there is a capacity problem there of course. We have had a few electric buses over on trial, one double-decker, one single-decker, and it is early days yet. Last week I was on a hydrogen bus in the U.K. and that operates really well. But hydrogen buses are extremely expensive at the moment, but hopefully that will come down over time. But all these are options that the team will be exploring.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Do you not think, Minister, given there is very limited availability of electric commercial vehicles at the moment, it would be unfair to impose too high of a V.E.D. where it is not a discretionary spend, it is a necessary spend as a part of business? Do you think there is a balance to be struck?
The Minister for Infrastructure:
Yes, it is very much a carrot and stick. We need to change behaviour obviously, but we are racing to catch up with technology, both obviously in the engineering form and in legislation that may need tweaking. Do you want to go on that, Louise?
Head of Sustainability, S.P.P.P.:
Thank you, Minister. Just to add as well to the chair's point there; it is absolutely well made in that one of the things that is being proposed for this year's vehicle emission duty changes in, in the commercial space, no additional V.E.D. for working vehicles, recognising that they contribute to the economy and businesses are in the post-pandemic recovery. There is also a proposal to slightly shift the V.E.D. bandings for commercial vehicles that meet the highest Euro standards. So previously V.E.D. has not taken into account the particulate performance of a vehicle and we felt that was unfair. Because people who were having to buy big CC working engine vehicles but were conforming to the highest Euro standards were still paying the highest rate of V.E.D., and that did
not seem right. So that has been corrected in this year's proposal in that vehicles that meet the highest Euro standards would pay the 2 bands down on V.E.D. So this year's proposal is very much about ensuring that businesses are being given the best opportunity to recover post-pandemic.
Where it is discretionary purchases, that is where the behaviour-change signal is being directed this time around.
Deputy G.J. Truscott:
I remember that the Minister for the Environment was quite keen to introduce a congestion charge. Is that still one of the possible cash generators being considered?
Head of Sustainability, S.P.P.P.:
It is not high up there. There was a question earlier, which I can add to, which came from Deputy Luce , which was about the levers that were being actively considered for revenue generation. A congestion charge is not on that list at the moment. The reason we are not keen on that in the very short term is, while of course it has a lot of value, it works in a lot of places, it requires a significant amount of backroom capability. You have to be able to do numberplate recognition, you have to understand vehicle flows to be able to apply the congestion charge. So while that one is certainly something that we know would work, initial investigations as outlined in the Government Plan are around road user charge to plug the gap between lost revenue, but also particularly to add to the Climate Emergency Fund. A carparking charge review, both looking at public carparking spaces, but also private carparking provision. The vehicle emissions duty you have heard about. A modest tourist tax and a commercial waste charge. Those are the ones that are being considered to work up policy proposals for the States Assembly to consider. So really early stage work. But to answer the question: congestion charging is not on the list in this first tranche of work.
The Minister for Infrastructure:
To put another spoke in the wheel, the team are aware it is not something I am in favour of. It is a very delicate balance at the moment. We need to have a thriving town centre to be fair to all the shop owners, et cetera. Because it is very fragile and we cannot exclude people from going into town. Plus we are a victim of geography, as you are aware, that if you want to go from east to west you technically have to go through town or skirt part of it at least. Therefore we would have to be very clear on what was and what was not within the boundary. We are at saturation point traffic- wise, so we have to make sure that all the main arteries going from east to west and west to east are open for people to commute. I am very keen on reducing traffic wherever possible, encourage more cycling, walking and of course public transport. But I am more carrots than stick.
Deputy G.J. Truscott:
Thank you, Minister. Very pleased to hear that it is not currently being considered, thank you.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
It is interesting that the Minister wants to reduce traffic but he still wants people to come into town. But my question is this: we are talking about the Climate Emergency Fund; it has several tens of millions of pounds voted to it at the moment. But, Minister, can you tell us roughly what levels of additional funding we are talking about here? Because we are getting down into granular detail, but
are we looking for another 10, 20, 30, or are we looking for hundreds of millions of pounds to give to the Climate Emergency Fund?
Head of Sustainability, S.P.P.P.:
I can pick that up. So, Deputy , a perfect question. How much is it really going to cost? You are going to get really bored with me saying this. The carbon neutral roadmap will bring forward the costed policies and there will be a value attached to the package of policies that we will be putting forward. But it is not unreasonable to use the work that we did as part of the carbon neutral strategy to provide a proxy for the size of costs that would be needed to have an accelerated carbon reduction agenda by 2030. So that was an evidence piece that formed part of the carbon neutral strategy that the States Assembly will recall voting on. The quantum of cost as direct cost to Government, so this was the amount of money that would be needed to apply 6 of the major policies that have worked elsewhere. I am not saying that those are necessarily the ones that will come forward in the roadmap but they are a good quantum of the type of policies you need for that level of carbon reduction.
[12:30]
That was enumerated for Jersey at about £300 million. So that is the sort of size of cost. So, as you rightly point out, there is £23 million in the Climate Emergency Fund. Potentially there are these new measures that might bring in some money. They will not get us up to £300 million. So the reality is that to have an aggressive decarbonisation agenda in line with carbon neutral, we are looking for a significant £250-odd million type of charge between now and 2030 as the first port of call. So I do not think I am breaking confidences. This is something that we have talked about. It is to say that a long-term financing strategy to meet that macroeconomic challenge will have to be worked up in the first phase of the carbon neutral roadmap. Obviously this is an enormous funding decision that the States Assembly will need to ponder upon, to see some recommendations for and take a vote. That will come on the next term of Government. Because you are quite right, ultimately there is not enough money to meet the high level of ambition that the Island and the States have signed up to. So we have to meet that challenge head on. There are innovative ways to meet that money as well as the more traditional options. But the reality is that carbon neutral has a cost to it. Just one final thing to say, of course not being carbon neutral has a cost as well. There is a reputational cost to the Island. There is a degeneration in the way we live and the air that we breathe and the environment that we enjoy. There are disbenefits to not addressing our carbon reductions as well as a cost to reducing them.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Has any consideration been given to revitalising an annual vehicle taxation system? I know the Chelsea Hotel has gone, but perhaps another similar application could be found, Minister.
Head of Sustainability, S.P.P.P.:
Yes. The Revenue Policy Development Board, who are the board that have been looking at the potential revenue-raising measures to be investigated, have looked at that. There is an annual car charge, like you say, like the old days if you like, and there is something slightly more sophisticated, the road user charge. On balance, what is being proposed in the Government Plan is more of a road user charge. So the idea is that you may own several cars, maybe some of them are classic
cars or hobby or specific vehicles. But if you are not driving them, it does not matter. You can only drive a car once. So where the discussions fell in that space was that people were more interested in charging mechanisms that were about amount of mileage a particular person would cover and then the charge would come in proportionally to that. So the idea of an ownership charge perhaps is not the favoured policy mechanism. Investigation is being put into a road user charge and then that leads us to looking up policy options that would somehow assess mileage or use in some way. It might connect in with vehicle testing regimes because you can see the mileage that a vehicle has used. That may find a proportional way to raise revenue on mileage driven.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Do we know how many vehicles we have in the Island? I know it has been uncertain and you were doing work on trying to make it more accurate.
The Minister for Infrastructure:
As you are aware, Chair, we have signed the Vienna Convention, so periodic test inspections will be in the pipeline in the not-too-distant future. We have already started on 125 motorcycles, minibuses and such like, and of course all the commercial vehicles are already tested. But it is a little bit down the road. Do you want to clarify exactly what your questions was, sorry?
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I just wondered how many cars are in the Island.
The Minister for Infrastructure:
Yes, in a nutshell. Because the system is being purged from D.V.S. (Driver and Vehicle Standards), people are being written to at the moment to bring their minibuses, motorcycles, and other vehicles in. They are getting replies: "No, this vehicle has been scrapped" or: "This vehicle left the Island." Because lots of people have come to Jersey to work over the years and have left and taken their vehicles with them, be it car, motorcycle or whatever. So they have disappeared from the system. Since we stopped doing the car tax, we do not have a totally accurate idea. But we think it is nowhere near what is predicted by people at the moment that we have more cars than people. I would not subscribe to that at all. I would say probably 75,000 to 80,000 vehicles. As Louise has pointed out, an awful lot of collectors over here have classic vehicles but they can only drive one at a time. But once the periodic test inspection really kicks in, then we will get a really accurate view of exactly how many vehicles are on Island.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
What is your view, Minister, regarding providing dedicated dockless electric bike parking zones at the strategic locations on public and Parish infrastructure Island-wide ? It is our understanding that this is common throughout the U.K. and the E.U. and would free up regular bike racks and make it easier for users of shared bikes to know where to retrieve one.
The Minister for Infrastructure:
We have the electric bike hire scheme operating at the moment but they are not dockable.
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:
We have been working with EVie, who is the principal supplier of shared electric bicycles, and we have been working with them to identify spaces where you can effectively geo-gate areas so that they are identified within the EVie app those spaces where these vehicles can be left. We have one of those at West Park to increase the capacity down there and we are open to any other requests. They would not be specifically for EVie, they would be available to anyone who wished to go into that line of business. But, yes, we are very supportive of that. Within the app that EVie operates they have the ability to penalise people who do not use those identified spaces and who create problems for other people.
The Minister for Infrastructure:
As pointed out, most of the larger hotels now are putting in EVie parking spaces for the hire bikes, which is terrific. As Tris has pointed out, with the geo-fencing, there is a fee involved if you park a bike, for instance, on a pavement, blocking a pavement to pedestrians or wheelchair users, et cetera. So they can locate all of their bicycles on-Island and there is a fee chargeable for reckless parking.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Just going back to the number of vehicles, I accept that we can only drive one vehicle at once, but could I just ask the Minister how many active driving licences there are on the Island?
The Minister for Infrastructure:
That is all handled by the Parish. I do not have that information. I would welcome feedback from Constables on that if they wish to provide that. But I do not think it is a breach of any data protection if it is just numbers. Again, lots of people have left the Island, taking their driving licence with them, so I am not sure if the Parishes suffer the same problem as we do at D.V.S. I defer to your knowledge on that one, Chair.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
We will have to dig in the files and see what we can find. A car scrappage scheme, which offers a cash incentive to use public transport, has been highlighted as an option to assist migration to electric vehicles. What is your view in that regard?
The Minister for Infrastructure:
Interesting concept. There are lots of old vehicles on the Island, I think I am probably driving one of them. Tris or Louise, do you have any info on that one?
Head of Sustainability, S.P.P.P.:
I can. That was something that was proposed by the citizens' assembly and it is something that the Carbon Neutral Steering Group have been considering as part of the proposals for policies in the carbon neutral roadmap. I am going to say it again: watch this space.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Of course we are talking scrappage, we are talking money, so that has to be found somewhere.
Head of Sustainability, S.P.P.P.:
That is exactly right. The Minister refers to the funding that would go for the first phase of any policy initiatives that we would be proposing in the carbon neutral roadmap and of course that comes from the existing money in the Climate Emergency Fund, which is the existing £23 million. So proposals that will be for policies for initiation next year; that is where the funding will come from. So the package of policies will be cut accordingly for the funding that is available so that at least that very early decarbonisation agenda can be started and hit the ground running because the funding is already there.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
With regard to the existing network of green lanes to create a safe network for cycle routes to span the Island, I know, Minister, many of the lanes are in Parish administration. But I wondered what your views were with regard to a long-term plan to build a dedicated network of cycle paths in the Island.
The Minister for Infrastructure:
As you are aware, Chair, there are 2 Parishes that do not have green lanes - Trinity and St. Saviour - which literally cuts the whole Island in half when it comes to commuting across the Island from the northern section. I am very keen on putting in cycle lanes wherever possible. Obviously we inherited the western railway network, so we are delighted to have that for walking and cycling, so you can cycle from Corbiere all the way through to Havre des Pas with the bits the team have put in place at La Collette. But going east, the eastern rail was sold off for housing, so it is very difficult to get access through the east. The team have worked very hard on safer routes to school and put in several sections of safe cycling to allow youngsters to get to school. But it is joining the dots that is quite difficult. Tristan, would you like to expand on that?
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:
Just to add a little bit on that. Obviously, we have a programme of upgrading existing cycle routes and looking to expand cycling in other areas, such as rapid prototyping, contraflow cycle lanes, et cetera. That is on the known opportunities. But as part of the rapid plans, Louise's team, in conjunction with us, are developing the active travel strategy. That takes a very high-level view of this and looks at those opportunities, origins and destinations, and where there might be viable links. The active travel strategy will provide the starting point for the development of those networks.
The Minister for Infrastructure:
I do get asked on a regular basis regarding the eastern section, when is that happening. But you can appreciate the difficulties that everything we do now is a retrofit obviously in highly-built-up areas. But it is all included in planning, if a new estate is built, for cycle access. Tristen and his team are really working hard on this to try to find ways through, especially for younger people to cycle in safety. The safer routes to school is something I am very keen on. But parents feel that their children would not be safe cycling to school, so they drive them to school, so other children do not feel safe. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy and we are trying to break that link. If we can put in dedicated cycle lanes we have. We have done quite a bit in my own Parish of St. Saviour , we have 11 schools in and around the Parish, so we have done things in Bagatelle Lane; we have made that
safer for cyclists, made it one-way. Put in a cycleway and a pedestrian-way through there. The Parish are working on Bel Air Lane at the moment to make that end safe. There are lots of things in the pipeline but, as I say, it is joining the dots. I am trying not to remove large tracts of parking,
especially in town, to put in cycle lanes. I get regular tweets of criticism from people who want everything done yesterday. But it is very, very difficult. Do you want to come in on that, Tris?
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:
Just to add, we are also looking at the experience elsewhere. So last week I was at a virtual conference called Greening the Island where we were sharing our experience with Guernsey, with the Dutch Cycling Embassy, with Malta and some Dutch islands and a Swedish island there, and talking about the problems that we encounter. So we are also looking out of the Island to see what is going on elsewhere and trying to establish a network of contacts to try to benefit from their experience. All these islands really are experiencing the same sort of issues and challenges as ourselves. But I am confident we will get there eventually.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Minister, we are all in favour of getting more people cycling and it is great that we have a cycle network with the cycle we can take to all parts of town. But what we cannot do is cycle into town. All the way through your Ministry there has been a plan on your desk to put a proper cycle and pedestrian crossing at the bottom of Gloucester Street. How much longer do we have to wait for that to be implemented? It is really a bottleneck in the whole cycling and pedestrian system.
[12:45]
The Minister for Infrastructure:
Yes, there are plans for Gloucester Street, which is going to be part of the bus lane as well. It is very difficult. Everything is a retrofit but there are plans in the pipeline. The team have just put in the cycle route from Snow Hill, so you can cross Royal Square, take a right there, then a left at the lights, and cycle up Snow Hill, which then joins up to La Motte Street to get you across town. Everything we do is a retrofit, it is not easy, but the team are indeed working on it.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
That is all very well, Minister, but this plan for crossing Gloucester Street has been around for a long time now. Are we going to implement it or not?
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:
Might I interject if that is okay? The Gloucester Street crossing and the potential for a westbound bus lane, you are right, has been looked at and we are working on plans for that. But the crossing itself is most likely, we are not quite there yet, to be integrated into the S.o.J.D.C.'s development because that changes how vehicles flow. So it is about working with developers in that instance. There will be a planning application coming forward later this year.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
I hear what you are saying, Tris, but are you telling us that we are going to have to wait until S.o.J.D.C. build out a new development at that end of the International Finance Centre before we get this road crossing?
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:
I cannot commit in terms of phasing but what I would say is, because we have rerouted the cycle path now through Les Jardins de la Mer, the cycle path exits in front of the ramp, which leads down to the Gloucester Street junction. So we have had a significant improvement there in terms of access to that junction. The issue then remains, because of the change in level, how much money would you want to spend up front now changing all those levels, knowing that site is under complete redevelopment? It is a case of integrating our ambitions along with the S.o.J.D.C. and, once that is through planning, looking at the programming of it.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
I can understand where you are coming from but I am not a cyclist; but if I was cycling into town every morning I would find that a very disappointing answer. As far as I can see, what we need is a very wide pedestrian and cycle crossing there, which just involves moving a few traffic lights and getting the lights to work at the right synchronised times and we get a vast number of pedestrians and cyclists across that 5 lanes of traffic, 6 lanes of traffic, in a much safer way. But there we are, thank you.
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:
You have got a finite capacity there, part of which we want to use to provide bus advantage. It is how you achieve that space and that space is much better being created using the opportunities that the S.o.J.D.C. development will provide. There will be information on that coming forward before the end of the year.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
We will have to agree to disagree because, if we have to wait for that, given that the plan has probably been in existence now for 5 or 6 years, it is going to be 10 or 15 years to implement something, which is as simple and straightforward as a sensible, wide, safe crossing for pedestrians and cyclists. I just do not understand why we have to wait so long.
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:
One of the reasons, without getting into the detail, basically if you reduce the capacity too much on that thoroughfare, you will drive further traffic into town, because of the tailbacks that will be created, and then you will create problems elsewhere. So it needs to be considered carefully in the balance. Also, in terms of the demand that the hospital development will be placing on those junctions as well, so it is not simple. We need a joined-up plan.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
I do not disagree with that, Tristen, but we all know there is a way of calculating these things. At the moment that crossing is very narrow. If it was 30 yards wide then people could queue knowing that they had a big width to cross over, we would get a vast number of increased pedestrians and cyclists across that road in the same amount of time as we have available now for much fewer people.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Who would be a traffic engineer? Moving to disposal of recycling materials. Can you provide the extent of the cost pressures and issues that this funding aims to address? You say we will fund as required the cost pressures associated with a combination of increased levels of recycling and the reduction in prices being paid for recyclets.
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
In recent years the prices that we have received for our recycled material, our paper, card and plastic, have fallen and the processing costs have increased. So it is costing us more to deal with the Island recyclets. This, coupled with the additional Parishes have now agreed to take on kerbside recycling, which is fantastic; St. Ouen and St. Martin and now Grouville , which will be coming online this year and next year and we will be supporting them with that process, again will add to this funding pressure. At the moment certainly within the Government Plan it is shown as funds as required, so there is money that is set aside in contingency. As we know, these prices fluctuate and they sometimes rise. Depending at the end of the year what kind of cross pressures and if it is in excess of our budget then we can call on the central contingency to support solid waste and funding its recycling materials.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Have you any idea of the level of funding anticipated that will be needed to be sufficient to meet the aims of the programme?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
At the moment we have estimated £200,000 but some of that is to deal with the dry recyclables and those costs. But that is also to assist those Parishes with the rollout of their kerbside recycling schemes as well. Some of those will be one-off costs. Hopefully, as the markets stabilise in future years, that price will go down and we will not need to call on the full £200,000.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Have you had discussions with key stakeholders to better understand the extent of concerns that need to be addressed and any potential solutions?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
With regard to the prices, obviously we deal closely with our contractor and meet with them regularly. With regard to recycling, as the question has been raised at the previous Scrutiny meeting, we are there at the moment primarily to try to support kerbside recycling. But we know that we would like to do more in support of the schools and support communities and such like where we can provide and offer more support and hopefully get a greater level of recycling. As a new recycling officer will be starting next month, we would like to take some of those activities forward.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Do you ever consider export or have you researched export to France or has Brexit had any part to play in preventing that?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
No, we do not. There is certainly an opportunity to export to France. We know that the Parish of St. Helier exports a lot of their recycled materials to France. Again that is something that we look at with our recycling contractor again to see where we can get the best price for those materials moving forward.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Moving on to glass, you suggest that you will support the development of an alternative method for disposal of glass. During the period of trialling and testing, we will need to export our glass off-Island
until we can recycle 100 per cent on-Island. Can you clarify what the current position is regarding glass recycling?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
Since 1995, so the last 25 years, we have crushed glass and used it as an aggregate on our La Collette waste site. Now that effectively the La Collette waste site is filled in, we do not have a requirement for that engineered material. Last year we did a piece of work to start looking at what
we are going to be doing with the glass now moving forward, and went out to the local market to see if there was a desire or a use for that type of material to be used into a separate type of aggregate. There is an opportunity to recycle some of that glass for what we receive and that will be used into some kind of sand product in the future. But we still at the moment are estimating that we are going to have to export glass off to the U.K. because at the moment there is not enough demand for the amount of glass that we produce and we receive at La Collette to be able to recycle that all on- Island.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
What level of funding do you anticipate will be sufficient to meet the aims of the proposed programme?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
At the moment we are estimating the ongoing cost to be about £200,000. But for the first 2 years we are going to require almost double that, £468,000, because we have to deal with the backlog of glass. Because we have effectively been storing it for 2 years. So we have to deal with that backlog material. At the same time, our aggregate waste recycling contractor has now invested in a wash plant facility. We hope that will be operational from the end of this year. Again, that aggregate contractor will start using the glass in part of their product, so hoping that we can make a sand effectively that can be used in construction products moving forward.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Clearly the environmental impact of exporting glass is not inconsiderable. Is this playing a part in the decision-making?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
It is at the moment and we have to see how successful that wash plant is going to be and effectively how we develop the outlets for those materials. So working again with our contractors to look at finding other opportunities to be able to recycle glass on the Island.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Moving to the vehicle testing centre and you completed the options appraisal in April of this year. Further work is required to establish the preferred method of operating an inspection centre. That was completed in 2021. The business plan was completed in August. Now we get to the identification of a suitable site and the construction and tender process for a franchisee to carry out the inspections with a target date in domestic legislation to commence vehicle inspections by April 2024. So, for the purposes of clarity, can you update us whether the vehicle testing centre is continuing in the 2022 Government Plan, considering the capital funding for an inspection centre for 2022-2024 gas been removed on the basis that the inspection centre should be provided by the operator?
The Minister for Infrastructure: Are you there, Tim?
Director, Jersey Property Holdings:
I am here but I do not have an answer.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
What we are trying to understand is why the capital funding has been removed.
Director, Jersey Property Holdings:
I would need to look into that and get back to you, Chair. I do not have an answer.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Thank you. We were really wishing to understand if the spend to date has demonstrated value for money to the taxpayer and how that might be. So, if there is a change of approach, do we know if the timeline for the project and its priorities have been altered in any way, obviously by COVID and, if so, how? Do you have any idea about that, Minister?
The Minister for Infrastructure:
It is still under development at the moment. I have a meeting later today with D.V.S. to go through all the details. But it is in development at the moment. We need a site for the new testing centre and that is something that is going to be discussed, the location of the site. But we have had problems, obviously COVID is one of them. But whether it is in-house or run by an outside company,
that is yet to be determined. Obviously money is really tight but we have signed up to the Vienna Convention, we have started using our existing premises at La Collette, but obviously we need something a little bigger if we are starting to test motor vehicles generally. So we will need to get back to you on that and maybe it is something for our next meeting or even sooner.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
Minister, yes, we know about the Vienna Convention and we know that vehicles travelling abroad do not have to have been inspected, they just need to be part of a regime where random inspections are taken or occasional inspections are taking place. But do we have a timeline on this? We cannot just carry on for ever not having an inspection centre. Surely at some stage we have to have one. Do you know how quickly we have to have an inspection centre up and running?
[13:00]
The Minister for Infrastructure:
Quite right. It is in progress. We are using our existing premises at the moment for motorcycles and minibuses and we have been testing commercial vehicles and P.S.V. (passenger service vehicles) for some time. But we do need special facilities, but we have demonstrated to the Vienna Convention Committee that we have started and they are content with that. But, as you quite rightly point out, we cannot carry on like this for ever. We have to get things up and running within the next couple of years.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Moving on to the Island public realm, including St. Helier . The original programme disrupted by COVID and reductions in funding as reported to the Regeneration Steering Group, a revised programme as set out in March 2021, the steering group updated report now on track and work has started to build a programme delivery pipeline. Your bid for funding to sustain a sensible and deliverable programme has been submitted in the Government Plan. So, in relation to this public
realm project, during our review of the Government Plan we recommended that greater effort should be made between Ministers to break down silos and adopt a more collaborative approach. Considering that the funding for this programme has fluctuated significantly in 2021, how has collaboration between Ministers been ensured to effectively prioritise functions for meaningful improvements? Is it your view that our recommendation to improve collaboration has been taken on board, Minister?
The Minister for Infrastructure:
Absolutely. The Regeneration Steering Board has several Ministers on board and we all work together. At the moment, the Constable of St. Helier is on that too.
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:
I can add to it. In terms of the work we are undertaking at the moment, we have formed a project board and that has representatives of the Chamber of Commerce and of the Parish of St. Helier on board. But also we bring in, as required, representatives from Economic Development and from Planning and any other area of government as required. So within the project we are looking at, at the moment, we are really at this stage information gathering about how the areas that we are
looking at work and how they feed into the St. Helier public realm and movement strategy, which has been developed by the planning officers within S.P.P.P. with us. So there is wider engagement and as the projects progress that net will widen. Last week we were out surveying shoppers, how people with disabilities used the area. We were also speaking to business owners in an informal sense prior to going to a more structured engagement with business owners next year.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
So it is our understanding that the Island public realm programme has been designated as a major project in the 2022 Government Plan and is amalgamated with the infrastructure rolling vote to form infrastructure rolling vote and regeneration including St. Helier . Is our understanding correct in that regard?
Yes, that is, Chair. So, in 2022, the £2 million that had been ring-fenced for public realm has been amalgamated with the £11.3 million for the infrastructure rolling vote. As you rightly said, it has now been assigned major project status.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
The plan notes an allocation of £13,318,000 for this vote for 2022. What portion of that funding will be allocated specifically to regeneration, including St. Helier ? Can you outline how the allocated funds for 2022 will be apportioned generally and what do you anticipate achieving as a result of these funds in 2022?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
In 2022, £2 million of that £13.3 million is allocated towards public realm. The remaining balance, so the £11.318 million, is split between drainage projects, which is roughly £4.3 million, highways projects, which is generally road resurfacing, which is £5.5 million, and seeder fences, which is roughly £1.5 million. Assigned to that, there is a list of projects, certainly within the infrastructure rolling vote; there are about 60 different projects that we aim to complete during 2022. For the public realm projects, again we are still firming up that programme and I know that a paper will be going to the Regeneration Steering Group agreeing on how best to be spending that £2 million.
Head of Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:
It is an update paper. So they receive regular papers and this is the latest update, which will go to them in early November.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Will £5.5 million for roads be sufficient? There is always a battle and there was a programme I know many years ago to upgrade the Island's roads. Will it be sufficient is the straight question?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
I would always like to say that we could have more money, but obviously the impact on the road network, we found that roughly £5.5 million we can manage with our contractors that obviously do that work and the disruption that causes on the road. The balance is probably about right.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Moving to the sewage treatment works. The Government Plan notes an allocation of £10.74 million for this major project for 2022. Can you outline how the allocated funds for 2022 will be apportioned once again and what do you anticipate achieving as a result of these funds in 2022.
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
So the additional money goes towards the overall cost that is required for the sewage treatment works. What I would just like to be clear with, Chair, is that again sewage treatment works has been moved into a major project status. So it does not just relate to the project that we are doing in replacing the existing sewage treatment works. Included within the £86 million was the cost for the new clinical waste incinerator, it includes costs in future years for effectively a proper storage area for dealing with our biosolids. It includes within there the £4.5 million that was voted by the States with regard to odour mitigation and also £1 million that was set aside for our outfall rehabilitation. As well as the monies that we asked for as part of the Government Plan process because of the COVID pressures and the increased cost if the S.T.W. (sewage treatment works), we requested an additional £1.5 million.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I am just trying to understand, we have an increase in funding the project of £75.502 million, which is in the Government Plan 2021-2024 and then £86.235 million. That cannot be right. So it was £8.62 million in the Government Plan 2022-2025. So is this part of the ongoing project?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
It is slightly confusing in the Government Plan because some money came in and came out. The original S.T.W. project was £79 million, of which then we have had additional monies allocated for biosolids £2.3 million, Bellozanne outfall rehabilitation £1 million, and again the odour mitigation of £4.5 million. What I will do, if it is okay with you, Chair, is just provide you with a breakdown. Because I am an accountant and I find it very challenging looking at all the ins and outs that have happened over the last 9 or 10 years. So if I could just share that with you, just to show you the tables of how that is made up.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I am pleased it is not just me. That will be very helpful, thank you. Subsequently, has the new position regarding this project been confirmed or what options are being considered to minimise any disruption to the project and manage the timely progress of this project, which of course is absolutely crucial to the Island?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
Last week we agreed to terminate the contract with NMCN and effectively we are going to be assuming the role as in I.H.E. as the main contractor and self-deliver the remaining elements of the project by engaging with the existing supply chain. We are obviously working very closely with our commercial colleagues to make sure that we get the best deal for the Government of Jersey. But there is obviously a lot of different contractors that we are engaging with because there is lots of
different work. There is something like 40 different contractors at the moment. So what we are hoping to do is continue with the work, so we are not going to have a big time delay. Try re-engaging with these contractors and effectively delivering the project ourselves.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
There is considerable concern from several local contractors as to whether they would get paid. The information was that they would work for the government but no one else. Is this route going to ensure that they get paid for the work done?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
We are working very closely with the local supply chain to understand how much is owing to them. You may be aware, Chair, but within the existing contract and lessons learned from the Doosan contract in 2013, we put a new clause in the contract, effectively to protect the local supply chain. We hope that we can resolve those issues certainly within the next month as we are going through this process.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Do you have the resource within the department to be able to manage a contract of this nature?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
Delivering this S.T.W. is not new technology for us, so, yes, it has bells and whistles and there are certainly improvements, but we have the experience with our project director and our project team, with some additions, to be able to deliver this contract. We are 60 per cent complete. It would be very difficult to go out now to the industry for another company to be able to take that on. So I definitely think the best deal for Jersey is as we are proposing.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Do you anticipate adhering to the original timeline and do you anticipate any legal activity as a result of the firm going broke?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
With regards to the issues with the company, once we have terminated the contract we have to agree the final payment and we have a 13-week window in which to do that. So then we will work out what we think either is the cost owing to the company or the cost owed to us. So we will do that work on that during the period and that will be concluded at the beginning of January and we will let you know those figures. Just with regard to the company, we do have retention monies and we do have some bonds. Again that protects the interests of the Government of Jersey and they will be drawn on if that is required moving forward. The timescale at the moment was we were hoping to complete the project in October 2023. There may be some delays but at the moment we are trying to stick to that timetable of trying to get this complete by the end of 2023.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Thank you, that is helpful. Moving down to the La Collette waste site development; this is a rolling project to provide improvements to the headland and site infrastructure. The Government Plan notes an allocation of £2.3 million for this major project for 2022. So how will the apportionment work down there and what do you anticipate achieving as a result of these funds? Are you confident the funding will be sufficient to accomplish the project's aims?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
At this stage we do believe that is the case. So we are continuing with doing our cell development and capping all of our existing cells. So we are not having to deal with the cost of all the leachate removal. Our other big issue down at La Collette and the work that we are looking at, certainly for 2022, is a strategic waste storage cell. The E.R.F. (Energy Recovery Facility), twice a year, has 2 big shutdowns, at which time we have to store bulky waste. At the moment we do that in lined cells and that can cause us issues. Ideally what we would like to have is more of a permanent constructed area where we can deal with that bulky waste, which is closer to the E.R.F. So we are looking at those opportunities now and hopefully can start designing or constructing something next year.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
I just wanted to ask a question about the capacities down at La Collette. Minister, if we are not there already, we must be incredibly close to being full of inert waste at La Collette. Are we full?
The Minister for Infrastructure:
We have an excellent contractor down there who has brought in extra equipment to refine what is down there and possibly do some mining to extend the life of the infill site. I will just hand over to Ellen who has the full gist.
[13:15]
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
Alan Langlois, who is our recycling contractor, has invested in this wash-plant facility that should be up and running at the end of the year. As the Deputy rightly says, La Collette is full. We can obviously store and increase the heights of where we are storing that inert waste material. But what we are hoping to do is, working with our contractor, create a secondary aggregate with that inert material. Hopefully that will be used on the Island. We have to work very closely with planning. We do not always need the vergées materials. It will be a very good quality and we will be looking at trying to use that in the future and recycle the material that we receive there. There may be a requirement as well still to look at the other options that we have for storing some of the inert waste, whether that is with granite products at the moment and such like in the future. But hopefully our aggregate we contract will be successful and we will be able to recycle a lot of that material.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Just picking up on that, the mid-year review notes the site feasibility is complete and has led to the inert waste solution. However, in your response to our written question, you confirm that the site feasibility study was not complete as funding was removed as part of the reprioritisation of funding during the pandemic. So could you just explain the rationale for this discrepancy and has an inert waste solution been developed now?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
Our partners have looked at those options. We still need to do, at some point, an inert waste strategy with the Island and working with our colleagues in S.P.P.P. with the work that they are doing on the mineral strategy to be able to see how the Island deals with those materials at the moment. It is early days with our recycling contractor and their wash plant. It will be very interesting to see how successful that is going to be in the future. It looks like it is going to be able to achieve an awful lot, but we would like to see that up and running and certainly take a more informed view within the next 6 months once that is operational.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Thank you. Probably once again one for you, Ellen. The drainage foul sewer extensions, funding and resource pressures have impacted on the delivery of this project. The design and build for the Ville au Bois project issued to contractors, construction expected to be complete by the end of 2021. You informed us in a response to a written question that resourcing issues continue to impact the progress of this work. However, you anticipate it to be complete by the end of 2021. As no funding has been allocated for this in 2022, are you confident that the level of funding available in 2021 will be sufficient to meet the project's aims?
Group Director, Operations and Transport:
It may now move into 2022 but with the monies that we have within the infrastructure rolling vote and with some of the carry-forward monies, we should be able to complete that project. As you correctly say, Chair, we do not have any new monies in 2022 to undertake drainage foul sewer extension projects. That money comes back in 2023.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
That is interesting. Do you anticipate pressure, Minister, on keeping that project moving?
The Minister for Infrastructure:
The team has everything under control. There was a question earlier about the expense of pumping. The team have seen with a project at St. Lawrence where, due to lack of geography, gravity played a large part in that. That project worked extremely well without the addition of major pumping stations. But the team have everything under control.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I was referring to foul sewer extensions. You have often promised that you wanted the whole Island connected as soon as possible. We seem to be having a delay this year now.
The Minister for Infrastructure:
Absolutely. I would keep quoting COVID but that has affected our budget and obviously the team as well. It is my desire to have as many people on the sewerage network as possible. There will always be a few who will be just too far away for mains drains. There are a few satellite places there. Obviously one of is Bonne Nuit. But it is something that I still wish to pursue. It will take a little longer but it is still an ambition. As others pointed out, with the extreme weather we have had, I am very keen on stormwater separation. This has been ongoing for many years. Obviously, in Victorian times, it was desirable to have storms flushing out the sewers, but obviously these techniques have long gone. Everything obviously goes to Bellozanne, but we do not want to be treating stormwater, which could quite happily go out to sea. So the more of the stormwater separation we can bring in, the less we will be treating fresh water at Bellozanne, which is good. But it has taken a knock.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Moving to the prison improvement works. La Moye Prison opened in 1974. In 2002, work started on a redevelopment plan to bring it in line with current Home Office standards and best practice. Phase 6B of the current masterplan includes the demolition of 3 disused cellblocks. Planning permission has been drafted and works have been tendered and they are due to commence this year, if they have not already. So the mid-year review notes that works for phase 6B are on track.
Would you advise what the spend is to date and whether the allocation of £90,000 for 2021 has been sufficient to meet the project's aims to date?
Director, Jersey Property Holdings:
Yes, at the moment they are on track and the funds are sufficient as things stand for that particular phase. There are some issues in terms of subsequent phases, rather confusingly phase 8, which will come before phase 7, but feasibility work for that will not start until the demolition is complete. So, at the moment, we are on track with the current funds but there is some movement of the funds for the next phases.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
The requested funds for 2022 is £230,000, could you provide a breakdown of what this is intended to cover, including the breakdown of specific allocations? Do you think this level of funding is sufficient to meet the project's aims?
Director, Jersey Property Holdings:
I believe it is. I do not have the specific breakdowns and I will provide those to you in a note afterwards if that is acceptable, Chair.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Thank you, So with the demolition of 3 disused cellblocks, what are they being replaced with? Is it new cellblocks; do you know?
Director, Jersey Property Holdings:
There is a series of works again for the subsequent phases. There is an outplacement block, which is effectively phase 8. There are also some additional facilities, education facilities, healthcare facilities, that will form phase 7. Again, I can give you specific details of that in a written answer if that helps.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Thank you. We are coming towards the end of our time, Minister. I am going to ask other panel members if they have any further questions before I close off.
The Deputy of St. Martin :
No, fine, thank you, Chair. Nothing to say.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Thank you. Thank you, Minister, and your team, for answering all these complicated financial questions, which we have to keep on top of as the general public would expect.
[13:23]