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Children, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel
Government Plan 2023-2026 Review Witness: The Minister for Home Affairs
Friday, 11th November 2022
Panel:
Deputy C.D . Curtis of St. Helier Central (Chair) Deputy B. Porée of St. Helier South (Vice-Chair) Connétable M. Labey of Grouville
Witnesses:
Deputy H. Miles of St. Brelade , The Minister for Home Affairs Ms. K. Briden, Director General, Justice and Home Affairs Mr. R. Smith, Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police
[11:10]
Deputy C.D . Curtis of St. Helier Central (Chair):
Welcome to this Government Plan hearing of the Children, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel. Today is Friday, 11th November. I would like to draw everyone's attention to the following. This hearing will be filmed and streamed live. The recording and transcript will be published afterwards on the States Assembly website. All electronic devices, including mobile phones, should be switched to silent. I would ask any member of the public who has joined us in the room today, please do not interfere in the proceedings and as soon as the hearing is closed, please leave quietly. For the purpose of the recording and transcript, I would be grateful if everyone who speaks could ensure that you state your name and role. The panel will introduce ourselves first, followed by the ministerial team. I am Deputy Catherine Curtis , Chair of the Children, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel.
Deputy B. Porée of St. Helier South (Vice-Chair): I am Deputy Porée , Vice-Chair of the Scrutiny Panel.
Connétable M. Labey of Grouville :
Connétable Labey , parish of Grouville , who is on that committee. Thank you.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I am Helen Miles , Minister for Home Affairs.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
I am Kate Briden, Director General for Justice and Home Affairs.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
We just have one hour for this meeting. Connétable Labey , you are going to start with a question.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Certainly. Minister, I am going to ask a question about the Army and Sea Cadet Headquarters. The proposed funding for the Army and Sea Cadet Headquarters project has increased since last year's Government Plan and is now proposed as £960,000 for next year and £2.2 million for 2024. Please could you provide an update on the status of this project?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Thank you. The Army and Sea Cadet Headquarters project has progressed through initial planning and design stages through 2022. We have had some very constructive discussions with cadet leaders about the specifications for the building and a potential location has been identified. It is intended that very early in 2023 the location can be confirmed and made public and that further design and feasibility work can be undertaken to progress to a planning application.
The Connétable of Grouville :
My next question was about where would the new site be, but you are not ready for that yet.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, unfortunately the preferred location is still subject to commercial sensitivity at the moment but we are very optimistic that early next year we can announce the site.
The Connétable of Grouville : Thank you very much.
Deputy B. Porée :
I have a question with regards to the prison improvement works that are being carried out or will be carried out. Can you please specify what works will be undertaken to modernise the prison estate in relation to the £3 million allocated to the prison improvement works?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
The prison improvement work is being conducted in phases. For various reasons, some of the phases do not run sequentially. Phase 6 is the new gatehouse and the offices and that project is nearly finished and it is due to complete in the next few weeks. That particular area also includes a conference room and we have also put in a hot-desking facility for Government of Jersey staff so that they will have a hub out west. Certainly it is something I have been in discussion with the prison about potentially being able to use it as a parish surgery location as well. Phase 6B is the demolition phase and that is going to be the demolition of A, B and C wings. The budget for that has already been allocated but we are presently looking at a different procurement approach that breaks the project down into smaller packages. We have had tenders received but all the tenders were significantly over budget if we went for the one big hit, so I think we are going to be sequencing that development. Phase 7 we have moved it to 2027 and that is due to affordability and deliverability reasons. Operationally it is manageable but it would delay our ability to meet required standards in a number of other areas, which would impact outcomes on any inspection that we have.
[11:15]
But that is to be expected and we would not be bidding for a new building until everything else is up to standard. But in the meantime phase 7 does include specific works in certain areas to ensure fire safety compliance. So phase 8 is the landscaping and we have allocated £600,000 of the £3 million for hard landscaping following the construction of the gatehouse and that leaves a balance of about £1.5 million to deliver the pre-release or the outworkers unit. We are looking at having potentially a café and a hospitality training facility at the prison but we need to keep that within the financial envelope. So that particular phase, phase 8, will have significant strategic benefits for the prison, as a parish amenity, as a community facility, because really the ethos that we are moving towards at the prison is about releasing better neighbours and in order to have prisoners training in the hospitality industry but also to welcome people to the prison will certainly help towards that. Phase 9 has somehow crept into the capital planning documents but it is not part of the current plan. We do not actually have a phase 9, so you can cross out phase 9. The other part of the £3 million is the CCTV upgrade and that phase is being prepared. It is unlikely to happen in 2023. We have already missed Government Plan deadlines and there is also pressure in other areas on the programme in 2023, but we will be submitting that for 2024. I think it is important to mention that we are doing that not in isolation. The States of Jersey more broadly have a CCTV programme going on, so whereas obviously we are going to be focusing specifically on security because it is a CCTV programme within the prison, there might be economies of scale and savings to be made through bulk procurement of cameras and other equipment.
Deputy B. Porée :
If I just may ask with regards to this immense body of work that is due to take place, are there any plans to introduce solar panels in the prison, say using the roof space?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is a very good question that I do not know the answer to.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
We have talked about it for future developments but they are not incorporated in the gatehouse, which is about to complete.
The Connétable of Grouville :
When we went on our visit there were acres and acres of lovely south-facing roof space and I was a bit dismayed that there was not anything up.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Let me take that back to the project team and I know it is certainly something that the Minister for the Environment and my Assistant Minister for Climate and Energy would be very interested in.
Deputy B. Porée :
It could be a good opportunity to add that.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
Can I just ask a question following from that? When you mentioned about phase 7 being left at the moment, what is phase 7?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Phase 7 I think is the rebuilding of some of the blocks, is it not?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
Yes, it is. We are calling it the multipurpose building. It is a number of different parts of the internal part of the prison, which have not yet been redeveloped. It would potentially include a new healthcare wing, a new segregation unit, new teaching facilities. The exact specification is still being worked on and it has changed and evolved since the phase for the original design but because we are not committing the funding yet, we have got plenty of time to work on that and make sure it really meets the needs of the prison, particularly with the focus on rehabilitation.
The Connétable of Grouville :
We are going to go back, Minister, to the beginning.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
You are going to ask this question, if that is all right with you?
The Connétable of Grouville :
Yes, indeed. Basically the following questions are about the States of Jersey Police. Under the estates section of the Government Plan 2023-26, the police firearms range has been allocated £1.7 million. Can you provide us with some detail about this project?
Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
Yes. The firearms range has been long in the making since before my arrival 3 years ago. What we currently have is vitally important, indeed the only way we can ensure proper certification of shooting what is probably best described as long-barrelled weapons. We send armed officers off- Island to various locations in the U.K. (United Kingdom) on already busy places at quite significant cost, something in the region of around £60,000 or £70,000 a year. That means that those officers are off the Island, so non-deployable, and of course that also means that they are away from their families for periods of time. That does not make a great deal of sense and I know my colleagues have worked very hard, both before I arrived and since, to find a suitable location. That planning permission has been granted, as you may have seen in some of the notes, which I am delighted about. The funding for that comes exclusively from the Criminal Offences Confiscation Fund, which seems to me a really good place to use that money. It will mean that we will be able to train our officers and indeed I suspect that the facility will be so good it will attract other people, so therefore it could attract an income. There is, of course, a recognition that shooting firearms in the Island has deep traditions and we are keen to be good neighbours with those that are also shooting in that area. I am confident that either we have achieved that or we are achieving that. The current challenge we have, I guess, as with all capital projects, is getting enough suitable bidders and those bidders having the confidence to bid against the costs, given the current issues within the world about costing things properly. So we currently only have one bidder for one reason or another. We are trying to encourage others and we are currently in negotiation to do as you often hear, start putting spades in the ground and start building this thing. My hope and expectation is we will be able to do that in the first half of next year.
My supplementary, Chief Officer, is about what you have already mentioned. We have got a very long tradition of exceptional firearms facilities in the Island. Could there not be any sort of collaboration or perhaps use existing facilities?
Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
Not for the specification that we need and that has to be properly licensed. We have the College of Policing that will come and examine whether or not it is appropriate and of course there is the safety issues as well. I am absolutely confident that it will not just be police officers that will be firing weapons in that location, in the safest possible locations as well, and I see this as maybe a facility for the Island as well as an opportunity to make quite significant savings too.
The Connétable of Grouville :
There could be a lot of ladies and gentlemen locally who would like to use similar types of firearm.
Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police: Yes, Constable.
The Connétable of Grouville : Thank you.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
My question is about Dewberry House. Please can you provide more details about the £2.9 million allocated in 2023 to the sexual assault referral centre at Dewberry House?
Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
It is again also long in the making. If you have been to the current Dewberry House, all Islanders would be very proud of the facility that we have currently got. I have been there myself a number of times. For those poor people who have been the victim of a sexual assault, I think the facility is excellent, but we now have greater plans, hence the budget that has been assigned to it. My understanding is that we have the planning permission for that. We are still looking at how we can work out what is the best part of the building, how the building will work. We had a conversation earlier on last week at I think it is Heathfield. Is it Heathfield I am thinking of? Yes. I know another Heathfield, that is why. Again, I do not get a sense that the timescales are going to stretch but it would not surprise me if they do because of the same challenges that we have elsewhere. I think this will be a world class facility, I genuinely do, and in the very best interests of those poor victims of crime.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
I have a question to do with the service offered. One of the services offered by Dewberry House is counselling from a charity Jersey Action Against Rape. Do the Government provide any funding to support the services that this charity provides?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It is my understanding that there is a service level agreement between States of Jersey Police and Jersey Action Against Rape that is currently under renegotiation because it has run out. I would have to get the details of that and come back to you.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
Page 58 of the proposed Government Plan states that both the firearms range and Dewberry House projects are funded out of the Criminal Offences Confiscation Fund, as mentioned. However, the panel notes on page 74 that the amount being transferred from the Criminal Offences Confiscation Fund to the consolidated fund is £1.8 million in 2023, which is less than those 2 projects require. Please could you confirm is there enough source of funding for them?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think it is my understanding that what is being drawn is what is required, so although the projects are going to be costing more, because of the difficulties and delays that Robin has articulated, the money will only be drawn down as it is required.
Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
It is my understanding that all the costs will be met. There has been, as I understand it, inflationary costs, as you would expect, but I do not think there is any suggestion there will be not enough to cover off those costs. That is my understanding.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
So the expectation is that it will all come from the Criminal Offences Confiscation Fund?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, eventually it will all come from the Criminal Offices Confiscation Fund.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
Please can you provide the panel with some further details about the £500,000 of additional revenue allocated to police resourcing?
Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
Yes. As you may know, back in 2009 the States agreed that the police officer numbers would be 215 police officers. We often forget, do we not, that we focus on police officer numbers as a currency but, of course States of Jersey Police has a number of very, very important police staff members who effectively keep the wheels on the ground and the feet on the floor. So back in 2019 it was agreed that the establishment for police officers would be 215. We discovered at the beginning of this year that the funding was still not quite there to deliver the 215 so we submitted a business case to the Government, supported significantly by the Minister and the Director General for J.H.A. (Justice and Home Affairs), and we have been allocated an additional £500,000 to deliver the 215. I am very confident that we will deliver the 215 this year. I know how important that is not only to the Minister but also to the Chair of the Police Authority and the Police Authority in general. We currently have 12 new recruits about to start in January. There are a lot of people that want to be part of the States of Jersey Police and we also have 7 transferees. It is probably not the right word to use for a Scrutiny Panel meeting but States of Jersey Police is very picky about the sorts of staff that we want to recruit into the Island. So we have 7 transferees. I think we had 12 applicants. Transferees are very important because we will lose one member of staff, say on retirement, leaving with over 30 years and we will recruit someone with no years, so we look to recruit transferees who have particular skills. We have just recently recruited someone from Lancashire Police who has particular skills in public protection. So where we have gaps and they reach the appropriate standard with the appropriate vetting, we will then recruit. So there is potential next year to recruit no less than 19 police officers.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
So you are confident that this resourcing is going to be sufficient to get the police officers needed?
Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
Thanks to the additional funding of £500,000, I am, yes.
Deputy C.D . Curtis : All right. Thanks.
The Connétable of Grouville :
This is about the ambulance, fire and rescue headquarters. Is the funding assigned to the ambulance, fire and rescue headquarters project solely for the new headquarters building or is some of this funding now required for maintenance of the current buildings due to delay from the wider estate review?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It is my understanding that the money that has been put into the allocation is for the ongoing work to deliver a new fire and ambulance headquarters. We will have to have a serious think about where the maintenance money is going to come from because, as we know, there are concerns about the physical standard of the building at the current ambulance headquarters.
[11:30]
This capital allocation is a capital allocation for the new build, which needs to remain there because obviously we continue to need to look forward to provide better accommodation and then we will have to look elsewhere for the maintenance.
The Connétable of Grouville :
I think our supplementaries to that basically related to what we have just asked. Will you be able to confirm the future site? No, you cannot.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No. As I have said on a number of occasions, it is a priority but we also are in the competing priority with the St. Helier primary school. This is at the forefront of everybody's agenda and certainly we are hoping, in collaboration with the Minister for Children and Education and the Minister for Infrastructure, that we will have some decision by the end of the year.
Deputy B. Porée :
It is almost like a jigsaw puzzle, is it not, to try and fit the sites?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It is like a jigsaw. Yes, it is. I liken it to dominoes. One of the dominoes has got to fall to allow everything else to fall into place. This has been going on for years and again we need to get those dominoes moving, but I am confident that we will have some sort of solution by the end of the year.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
My next question is about the ambulance service as well. To what extent does the Government Plan investment in the ambulance service address the concerns raised in the recently released independent review?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
As you know, between ambulance and fire we are going to be investing a sum of £9.5 million over the term of the next Government to bring both of those services up to standard. We know that demand for the ambulance service has significantly increased and this investment is to make sure
that we are meeting our current operational demands, that we are improving patient response, that we are reducing average waiting times for an emergency response and that we can reduce response times and just generally provide a better minimisation of risk to Islanders. As well as the staff issues and the equipment issues, also part of that money is going to go to some of the governance issues. We need to have a suitable governance structure to make sure that we are compliant with current standards and legal requirements. The money will be spread across those functions. I think you will notice from the Government Plan that the ambulance service has been given almost double the funding that the fire service has, so we have prioritised the significant needs of the ambulance over the fire service on this occasion.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
The supplementary question I had you have answered in a way, but just to confirm then the Government Plan investment should reduce the need for additional overtime from core staff and the use of agency staff and the reliance on managers to attend calls?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, absolutely. The ambulance service, like all our emergency services, are a can-do service and I think it is important that I state that we are very grateful to have such committed staff who are prepared to forgo breaks, who are prepared to put in the overtime because they are focused on the safety of our community, but that is unsustainable in the longer term. Staff need to be given proper breaks and they need not to be working overtime. We have had a reliance on agency but this funding will allow us to recruit up to the full numbers and provide terms and ... well, we provide good terms but better working conditions for staff in the longer run.
Deputy B. Porée :
This obviously follows the fire and rescue services. Does the Government Plan investment to fund and increase the number of firefighters make specific provision to increase the number of all kinds of firefighters?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes. What the funding will do is increase the number of full-time firefighters but also some money in the budget to try to increase our number of retained firefighters, on-call firefighters, because we need to have the capacity within the service to provide a response to emergencies.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Another question on fire and rescue. How does the funding allocated in the Government Plan address the limitations associated with on-call firefighters with their availability, such as difficulties with training and maintaining competence?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
What it does is make sure that we can offer more training to the recruits that we have and we are also going to be mounting a recruitment campaign in the new year. We know that the western fire station is not open as much as it should be because we have a shortage of retained firefighters. As the parish Deputy of St. Brelade , that seems a little bit anomalous to me because we have got a pretty intensive set of housing around there, so we are going to be focusing on recruitment, but I think we have to bear in mind that in these days everybody is busy. People tend to be working full out in full-time jobs and do not really have the time to dedicate to this sort of service in the way that they did before. So we are looking at recruiting different groups maybe to support us and the other thing that we are looking at is whether we can get some of the permanent firefighters to take on-call contracts so that they have contracts to come in, because some of the firefighters do have jobs in other areas. So that is one of the things that we are looking at being able to do.
The Connétable of Grouville :
I also wanted to ask your opinion on whether you feel that the remuneration for on-call firefighters is sufficient.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think it is sufficient. I do not think that remuneration is a barrier to recruitment.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
I have a question about the combined control room. Please can you describe how planned improvements to the combined control room differ from the changes that were made in 2018 to establish the combined control room for the ambulance service, fire service and police?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
The ambulance, fire and police control rooms have been co-located since 2019, even though the planning started in 2017, and without doubt it has increased operational co-operation between the services but we do need improvements to that system to deliver speedy, accurate and resilient combined control room services. So this investment, the 2023 and onwards, is intended to fund the planned improvements that will make what is a relatively small service at the moment more resilient. So we are putting in a resilient 24/7 management structure with a dedicated 999 calls response team and non-emergency police calls. The money is really to fund better training and more integrated training for the staff that are already there. Did you want to say any more about that, Kate?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
The significant amount of money that we have seen in previous Government Plans was capital money for systems and the intention at the time was to purchase a new computer-aided despatch system, which would work across all 3 services. We did go out to market for that last year but we were not successful in finding a system that would meet our needs and accepted that perhaps that was because our needs were not sufficiently well developed as well as the marketplace not generally having a product that does all 3 services at the same time. So a technology solution for that will now be different. It is about joining up the back systems on a front screen so that the controllers can use both of the current systems at the same time and we are making good progress on that with the Modernisation and Digital colleagues that we have got working on it. So, as the Minister has said, the real focus of this investment, if approved, is revenue and people, so a bit more programme and project management to lead us through the change and really investing in the management structure and the people and the training so that it is as resilient and effective as it can be. That is underpinned by a new service level agreement that we have just agreed with Robin and his head of service colleagues for ambulance and fire and rescue and that will be our guiding document as we make the combined control room almost the fourth service and ensure that it delivers to the right standard ultimately for the Minister and for Islanders but for those 3 services and that it meets their needs. We will also be changing the name, just confuse everything, to emergency services control centre, which has been suggested by the staff and the board has agreed more accurately reflects what the team there do. Of course we do not think the name "combined" needs to continue because it is self-evident now 4 years on that that is what happens.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
That is interesting, it being the furth service as well. What benchmarks will be used to establish whether this investment has been effective?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
The service level agreement will give us the first framework we have ever had really for what, to use the new name, the emergency services control centre does and the performance standard it meets. Fundamentally, those standards have to be those that are set out by the relevant professions. Robin and his team will have a set of police standards that should be met by their control function and the same for the other 2 services. We will use those standards to measure ourselves against to improve and also to be held accountable by the 3 heads of service and then of course by the Minister. That is still a bit of a work in progress. We do not have a published set of key performance indicators for the control centre yet but we intend that we will have them. Obviously we are very happy to brief the panel in more detail once we have developed those and they will be the key thing. Our raison d'être for the whole thing is that the improvements that we will make in investing in the staff and training will mean that we can deliver a better standard.
Moving on, staff in the Justice and Home Affairs. The panel has compared the number of full-time equivalent roles that were anticipated in the previous Government Plan with the numbers that are provided in this plan. For 2023 there are appears to be an increase of 35 full-time equivalent roles in the directorate office from 18 to an estimate of 53. Please could you outline the reasons for this increase?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
There is a variety of different reasons. Some of it is investment, so new posts, and some of it is service transfers. So the table is set out as 10 is a service transfer. That is 10 police controllers transferring to me from Robin for the emergency services control centre. The other set is an increase of 17 in the J.H.A. directorate that is matched with a decrease of 17 in the ambulance service and that is the ambulance, fire and rescue controllers moving from ambulance to J.H.A. directorate under the emergency services control centre business code that sits under me. So it is 3 different reasons but that is what they are. So the substantive part, the 10 plus 17, is transfers from other parts of J.H.A. into that business code line and then the others are increases due to investment. The 8 is increases due to investment.
The Connétable of Grouville :
A supplementary if I may. What is the purpose of those roles and what grades are those roles?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
I realise I need to check that because I do not have to hand what the detail of the 8 is. If the panel would not mind if I check that. I am sure I have got the answer here and I will come back to you.
The Connétable of Grouville : Thank you very much.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
Sorry, can I just ask, can you just explain some of that again, because I did not quite get it?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
Sure. So there is a service transfer of 10, which is between Robin as a different accountable officer in the department to me. There is a service transfer of 17 from the ambulance service, which is under me as accountable officer, to the J.H.A. directorate, which is also under me as accountable officer. Then there is 8 increases due to investment, which are the ones I just need to double check.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
Okay, fine. The next question is a long question.
The Connétable of Grouville : You will need to take notes.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
Minister, with reference to page 47 of the Government Plan ...
The Connétable of Grouville : It is quite a document, is it not?
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
... we would like to ask for some clarity about the £144,000 of value for money savings targets, which have been identified for Justice and Home Affairs to make in 2023.
[11:45]
In your response to the panel's letter you stated that savings were to be achieved by offsetting non- pay inflation in the first instance. However, page 47 sets out that the non-pay inflation saving is held centrally and the £144,000 is separately assigned to Justice and Home Affairs. Could you clarify and perhaps expand on where those savings might be found within the department? We are trying to find out where the £144,000 is.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Okay, and we are referring to Justice and Home Affairs, not the States of Jersey Police?
Deputy C.D . Curtis : Yes.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
It is our understanding that although the non-pay inflation is held centrally, it will be released to departments.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
Can I just stop you there for a moment? Could you also define for us what is non-pay inflation?
The Connétable of Grouville : Yes, please.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
So, pay inflation is pay awards, for example, which is put into departmental budgets once pay rises are agreed, in very basic terms. Non-pay inflation would be that the things that we buy, and we buy quite a lot in Justice and Home Affairs for equipment and consumables and P.P.E. (personal protective equipment) for staff and those sort of things. Particularly in the current financial climate, they will be significantly increasing. Normally non-pay inflation is expected to be consumed by departments. Pay inflation is very much the significant part of inflation pressure, particularly in the Department for Justice and Home Affairs of something like between 86 and 89 per cent pay. It is normally expected that we can consume the non-pay inflation. In the current climate in the Government Plan it is recognised that that will be less achievable by departments because the non- pay inflation will be significantly more than it has been recently and therefore when we buy things we will buying them at a greater cost and it will be more difficult to consume. So the intention is that unlike in previous years non-pay inflation will potentially be allocated to departments and we can offset that to ensure that we meet our value for money efficiency commitment here. What that means, though, is that we will still strive to achieve efficiencies in the department and if we can find £144,000 in efficiencies across the J.H.A. budget then we will. Particularly importantly if they are recurring we can bake those in for the future and we do not need to use the mechanism of offsetting the non-pay inflationary amount that would otherwise be allocated to the department.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
Right, okay. I am going to need to think that one through.
The Connétable of Grouville :
I thought it might be that you were transferring to a central buying system that were buying on behalf of all the States departments and that is why I thought that might have been transferred into that system because it went into central funds, but obviously that is not true. I mean, that is a lot of coffee.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
Yes, and we do buy a lot of stuff and it does cost. Looking at our purchasing arrangements is of course absolutely at the heart of value for money arrangements that the Government are putting in place and we will continue to strive to be as effective and efficient as possible in all that we do.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
Thanks. I have a question which is again to do with efficiencies. Your response on 9th November stated that out of the original figure of £1.7 million of efficiencies in 2022, £255,000 remained and this would be made in 2023. Can you confirm if any of these efficiencies will overlap with the targeted £144,000 value for money savings?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
They are 2 separate amounts. So we have made the £255,000 in other ways in 2022 but that means it is an efficiency commitment that we have not baked in, we have not made recurring. So that is the challenge for 2023. What we really need to do is find £255,000 and £144,000 in recurring efficiencies and we are working on options and plans for that but we do not yet a firm granular plan for that.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
That is quite a lot. Thanks.
The Connétable of Grouville :
May I ask a supplementary, Chair? Obviously with all the visits that we have undertaken to all your departments practically now and the manpower issues that each and every one has clearly got, I was a little anxious that savings were going be almost impossible to make because of that, but you seem confident that they are achievable.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
I think there is more to do around our non-pay costs, so exactly as you just said, Connétable . The purchasing arrangements perhaps are not as efficient and effective as they could be. The focus on the value for money programme for Government will be primarily on helping Health and Community Services and Infrastructure, Housing and Environment for 2023 because although I say we buy a lot, they obviously massively usurp what we buy and we are working with that and we make sure that we get any benefit from the immediate work that is done with those departments. There is some overlap of course. If Health are buying something that ambulance are also buying there is an obvious synergy there that we are perhaps not exploring fully. I would hope that we can benefit from that wider piece of work to help us achieve and embed what, as you have just said, Chair, adds up to £400,000 of savings next year. We will look for that in the non-pay areas not the staff areas.
The Connétable of Grouville : Good. Thank you.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
I have a question which is about Government Plans themselves. Unlike previous years, the Government Plan does not set out the breakdown of funding allocations by Minister. For transparency purposes, do you think any differences between departments and ministerial portfolios could be made clearer in future Government Plans?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think one the things that we tried to do is align that, but I would say that if it is not clear, yes, of course there will be opportunities to do things differently in the future.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
Yes, so we can see more exactly what is happening and it is easier to scrutinise and so on, I think. My next question is the proposed Government Plan now forms part of the wider Government Programme. What is your assessment of this new approach?
The Minister for Home Affairs: In what way?
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
That they will be delivering plans early next year, so that is part of the whole programme which is ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think the issue for me is as a new Minister I am not very familiar about the way the old Government Plans and Programmes worked, so all I can say is that the way that we have developed the Government Plan seems to be quite sensible. I would say that we were rather more pressed for time than we would have liked but that is due to the timing of the election and like. So basically on the top we have the plan and it is now incumbent on departments to start working on delivery plans and obviously they will be shared with you at the appropriate time.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
The delivery plans that should happen in 2023, will there be more detail about the specific programmes? So far we have seen business cases but will there be more detail for us to look at?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, absolutely. The delivery plans will just be that. They will be saying how we are going to be delivering the changes and also would be linking it back into the performance frameworks, how we are going to monitor that, how we are going to make sure that we are doing what we said we are going to do.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
Our next lot of questions are actually in the quarterly plan, which we are going to afterwards.
The Connétable of Grouville :
That is a significant chance for a break.
Deputy C.D . Curtis :
Yes, it is. Is there anything else anyone wanted to say? Okay, so I would like to say everyone thank you very much for contributing and that is us closed for now.
[11:54]