Children, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel

Government Plan Review

Witness: The Minister for Children and Education

Wednesday, 9th November 2022

Panel:

Deputy C.D . Curtis of St. Helier Central (Chair) Deputy B. Porée of St. Helier South (Vice-Chair) Connétable M. Labey of Grouville

Witnesses:

Deputy I. Gardiner of St. Helier North , The Minister for Children and Education

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour , Assistant Minister for Children and Education (1) Connétable R.P. Vibert of St. Peter , Assistant Minister for Children and Education (2)

Mr. R. Sainsbury, Interim Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills Mr. J. Williams, Programme Director, Education Reform

[10:01]

Deputy C.D . Curtis of St. Helier Central (Chair):

Welcome to this Government Plan hearing of the Children, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel. Today is Wednesday, 9th November. I would like to draw everyone's attention to the following. This hearing will be filmed and streamed live. The recording and transcript will be published afterwards on the States Assembly website. All electronic devices, including mobile phones, should be switched to silent. I would ask that any members of the public who ... I think that is okay. For the purpose of the recording and transcript, I would be grateful if everyone who speaks could ensure that you state your name and role. The panel members will introduce ourselves first, followed by the Ministerial team and attendees at the table. I am Deputy Catherine Curtis , the chair of the Children, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel.

Deputy B. Porée of St. Helier South (Vice-Chair):

I am Deputy Porée , the vice-chair for the Children, Education and Home Affairs Panel.

Connétable M. Labey of Grouville :

My name is Connétable Mark Labey of the Paroisse de Grouville , and I am a member of that panel.

The Minister for Children and Education:

Deputy Inna Gardiner , Minister for Children and Education.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (1):

Deputy Louise Doublet , Assistant Minister for Children and Education.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (2):

Constable Richard Vibert , Assistant Minister for Children and Education.

Interim Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

Robert Sainsbury, interim director general, Children, Young People, Education and Skills.

Programme Director, Education Reform:

Jonathan Williams, programme director for Education Reform.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Thank you. We are ready for questions? I shall ask the first one. Minister, £688,000 of value-for- money savings have been identified for C.Y.P.E.S. (Children, Young People, Education and Skills) to make in 2023. Where will this come from? If you could just give us an idea.

The Minister for Children and Education:

Thank you, Chair, for raising this very important question because this is an ongoing discussion between ourselves, C.O.M. (Council of Ministers) and the Government. The Council of Ministers propose to establish a value-for-money programme over the next 4 years and we have been given a target. I am really aware that it is challenging to find and deliver efficiencies in C.Y.P.E.S. and I was very clear during the Council of Ministers' meeting because, if you looked at our budget, most of our budget was people, it was front line. It is not about taking the exercise like maybe in other departments. If I need to have a teacher in front of the class I would have a teacher in there. I am aware about this challenge and I know that we have done only £73,000 last year and it is about the restructuring. I will never compromise and I made clear our statutory requirements, and we have lots of them within the department. What we can see, and I can see that it might be but it will not be recurring. I cannot commit for £688,000 recurring efficiencies. It can be non-recurring efficiencies and it can be and it can happen. I think I would like to reassure the panel that I was very clear that none of our statutory obligations will be considered when we are looking through the value-for- money exercise.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

In your letter to the panel you stated a plan to deliver these savings has been developed. Is it a realistic target for 2023, seeing as there was only £73,000 savings from the last one?

The Minister for Children and Education:

I think it is the target that was set but this is an ongoing discussion. Again, we can look into how we manage our value for money around the capital investment.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (1):

Can I just add? So I think that the Minister herself - I think your ethos is a very frugal one - and what I have seen in meetings that the Minister is often challenging when there is money being talked about. I think that is probably often challenged: "Do we need to spend that there? is there an alternative that will still deliver good outcomes?" It is good to have a number to work towards and I think it is fair to say that there is always that approach of is this value for money for children, will it achieve good outcomes, are there other options that might be best value for money?

The Minister for Children and Education:

I was very clear that I have raised the big question around the commissioning arrangement within the Government because currently we have commissioning for C.Y.P.E.S., commissioning for Health, commissioning for the Public Health. This is why we need to work through the Government to make sure that what is the need for the commissioning Across all these 3 commissioning teams. If we can have one maybe big commissioning team that will work for ... because sometimes Public Health and Health and C.Y.P.E.S. are commissioning to the same provider. I would think that maybe a value-for-money exercise will help us to see how we can make efficiencies. It will be across the departments.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (2):

As I see it, my personal view is that achieving this £688,000 cannot be seen to impact the care, health or safety of any child. That is paramount, that is how I would view it, and if the £688,000 is not achieved for those reasons then it is not achieved.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Maybe from streamlining how things are done I think maybe that would help.

The Minister for Children and Education:

I will give you another example, which is a recent example within the department. We recently have an associate director for public engagement. It is a new role because we put public engagement, engagement with children and young people, as one of our top priorities. Recently when we needed to do any consultation to hear children's views it has gone to an outside consultant, and it is money that is spent from the budget. We had a conversation about inclusion because we need to progress with our education reform and we need to have this engagement. We need to have proper consultation measurement with the children and we said we have now within the department, so we do not need consultant anymore and we do not have it. It is how you are really making the small changes when you are better delivering; you train your own people within your system and not continue to use outside consultants.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Just a question about how that is recorded and accounted for if those savings were to happen. Could you clarify whether the value for money savings targets are included within the C.Y.P.E.S. head of expenditure for 2023?

Interim Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills: It will be an expectation of budget.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

In relation to the C.Y.P.E.S. estate, the proposed Government Plan states there are a large number of projects that are currently being reviewed and prioritised. £31 million for funding has been removed from the school estates capital projects budget and has been moved to 2 group heads of expenditure that are being managed by the C.Y.P.E.S. Department. Please could you provide us with a bit more detail about how that process to prioritise projects funding will work?

The Minister for Children and Education:

Thank you, Chair, for the question, and I am happy to go into details and please stop and ask questions as the process is happening, as we speak. First, there is a clear direction that there are 3 projects that are underway and they are not going into this prioritisation. It is the Mont a L'Abbé extension, which I hope will be signed this month. I do not want to commit about the day. I am waiting to hear about final details for developing St. John 's Primary School playing fields. It is all in progress, it is all signed, money allocated, just the legal stuff that needs to be signed between C.Y.P.E.S. and the Parish. I have had progress on the First Tower playing field as well. These are 3 projects that are very clear sitting with the remit. We have another pot, which is St. Helier 2 new primary schools. I published my report, I published my suggestions to the Council of Ministers. We do have money allocated obviously. Hopefully one of them will progress from 2023 and we need to go through the feasibility studies, we need to go through the planning, we need to go through all this process. If all will go according to the plan, say in another 3 years we would have new primary schools in central St. Helier . The Rouge Bouillon site we are working out. We have our future places meetings and the beginning of 2023 the place will be finalised. This is a separate budget that they are not going into the prioritisation part. The other parts that I would like to raise that there will also be in delivery is Mont a L'Abbé secondary school because it is the only place that we really need to do. I think that on the 21st we will have a workshop which calls for capital projects. We are involving headteachers; primary, secondary, rural, not rural. My team, the Jersey Property Holdings team and somebody from the management who is helping us. We are using management to put categories, increasing need, decreasing gap, number for Jersey Premium children in the school, state of the school. So there are lots of different categories which will be agreed by this group. Each category will receive a different number, a different school, and one will see it will be open to the public, it will be open to yourself where you can discuss. During 2023 what we will see is a full review of each school from the capital project, what is the state of the school, what needs to be done. Obviously this table can be updated according to the outcome of the report and maybe the priority will change. This is how the distribution will be done because before I was elected I asked why they had that. It was not any particular tool applied that I can see that it was a fair distribution of the funds.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Thank you for that explanation. But I expect that already there will have been some projects that must have been deprioritised.

The Minister for Children and Education:

Again, if you are talking about Les Landes School, I think this is what was in your letter and people ask me and I will be very open. I met with the headteacher and we have ... it is not that they are deprioritised but they are coming back to the same prioritisation exercise.

[10:15]

If for whatever reason they would work out that it will be higher and they have the budget I am happy to put it back. But currently why I oppose it - it is not that they are deprioritised, I would say opposed - because when I look through the numbers we have 145 places in the state nurseries available. We have I think 15 or 16 places in St. John , St. Mary , St. Peter ; all these 3 nurseries are in 5, 7, 8 minutes' drive. And St. Mary which is closed and some of them are going to St. Mary School and

not really until ... and this is why I question about priorities. Saying this Les Landes needs disability access. They do not have it and this disability access will take priority because we need to ensure that children have an access. They do not have a family room and I am definitely looking to create a family room there.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (1):

I think as well as part of my work with early years I am looking at the nurseries and childcare sector as a whole. I think what we need to consider is that sector as a whole and where is it best that we invest as a government and where is it best for children that there is work done and investment delivered. That piece of work is important to inform investment in school nurseries.

The Minister for Children and Education:

I think that you also raised with me and we had a conversation about why we have 145 places available in state nursery when we know that in the private sector parents are struggling to find a place at a nursery.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (1):

We are very much listening to the nursery sector at the moment so that the private sector ... they are talking to us at the moment about their views on what children need and what the sector needs to be able to provide what children and families need. In terms of creative thinking it would be almost the wrong way round for us to rush in and continue with this project before we have had a proper think and investigated all the options there. I do not think the Minister is saying that there is never going to be a nursery at Les Landes because I think the aim is that parents who are in the catchment for any school would have the choice. But it will come, I think.

The Minister for Children and Education:

We need to see how we create in the system and what is needed for the system, where are the needs.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

That is good to hear because I know there is a problem with not enough places in nurseries, so if you are looking at the whole thing that is really good and the hours available and so on. Thank you for that. I think our next question is from the Connétable .

The Connétable of Grouville :

I am particularly interested in this proposal but please could you provide some more detail about the proposed sporting facilities at Le Rocquier School, which is listed in the new school and educational development's head of expenditure?

The Minister for Children and Education:

First of all, I have visited Le Rocquier School to see the facilities myself and it is definitely facilities ... I have to be really complimentary to the headteacher and to the team because they have done as much as they could with the current facilities; new painting and new changing room but this is as much as they can do. Like we are saying also about the disability access that is problematic to the sport hole. They did create another room. It is one of the priorities because again it is not ... this is why we send, this is different the categories. I would sit with my team because it is in 2023. I am also waiting to hear from the Sport Minister and from Jersey Sport because I found 3 different options. I think this decision needs to be done on the corporate level and not just on my level because it was like are we creating a bigger facility, a smaller facility, what type of facility, is it only for school, or is it for all community? At the moment that it has become not just me saying I want just school facilities, which will not be right, and we are looking into having community schools, the decision should be taken at a corporate level and definitely it is on the list to do about the future. So we have this future places. We had 2 meetings about St. Helier schools and we will continue this but this is one of the priorities as well there, it is on the list.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Can you advise why various projects that have been confirmed within either the new school and educational developments head of expenditure, for example, the V.C.P. (Victoria College Prep) project, an extension to Mont a L'Abbé, which you have already mentioned, or the upgrade to the C.Y.P.E.S. estate are also listed within the separate feasibility head of expenditure on page 54 of the Government Plan .

The Minister for Children and Education:

I will be also precise that I am answering the correct question. Are you referring to replacement as it is a minor capital? If it is £12 million; which figure, just to make sure that I am answering the correct one.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (1): Page 54 I think he said.

The Minister for Children and Education:

Apologies. That particular one, so what we have done, if you are looking at this it is the feasibility because we have not done feasibility on this. It is not something that I can sign off and progress tomorrow. The Mont a L'Abbé extension; the feasibility is done, the plan is done, the tender almost done, and I can progress. But on all these projects I need to do the same process before it is progressing. Yes, absolutely. If you are looking into the field education campus, I promise that by the end of this year, beginning of next year, I will publish the further education White Paper, and this paper would guide what will be the further education campus. I started to work with all providers for the higher education on the Island and looking into how higher education offer will look. It also will inform how the campus might look because if you have more higher education offers on the Island we would need to have the right infrastructure to provide this.

The Connétable of Grouville :

I think the supplementary question has been answered. Shall we move on?

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

The next question is just about Greenfields, and a simple one. What are the long-term plans for Greenfields?

The Minister for Children and Education:

Is it okay if I pass to my Assistant Minister because he has specific responsibility and I am happy to pick up if you need.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (2):

Greenfields is complex because it has to meet a number of different needs. You have the potential for a child to be given a custodial sentence by a court. You could have a child on remand and you could have a child that is there for their own welfare or potentially because they could be harmful to the welfare of another child. So therefore it has to meet all those needs. I think when we look at other small jurisdictions, they all have a similar facility but you also have to understand that if we looked at the U.K. (United Kingdom) in a population of 100,000 we would not be building a facility for those needs. However, I think we are all agreed that we do have to have that type of facility because you would not want to be in a position where you had to send a child off the Island, where they are away from their family. So we have to cater for that need. What we have to look at is Greenfields was not built for that purpose. There could be a considerable redesign if you are going to adequately cater for all those categories. At the moment we are still looking at the issue but of course we are not ... nothing is sort of off the table, in effect. You could completely redesign Greenfields or you could look at it and say: "Do we actually need to build a centre that is specifically meets those 3 needs?" At the moment we are looking at all those scenarios. What we want is the best outcome for the children that are in there. Is there a future for Greenfields? That depends whether you are talking about Greenfields as a building or Greenfields as a place that meets certain purposes. Whether it is still on the same site or not, as I say, is one of the issues that we are looking at.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (1):

Can I add to that? As part of the Ministerial team one of my responsibilities is children's rights and I just want to emphasise that the team and all the officers and C.O.M. as well, we are taking a child right's approach. I think we cannot emphasise enough that the facilities that might be needed it would be for ... we want it to only be in extreme circumstances. So depriving a child of their liberty should only be done when there are no other options. That is the principle that the Ministerial team are working to. Where it does have to be done, where a child does have to be deprived of their liberty. it should not be punitive; there should be therapeutic approaches within that. Those are our principles and that is what we would be working towards.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

That is good because we visited and appreciated what the management were doing and it would be good if there was more certainty I think about what was happening.

The Minister for Children and Education:

It is definitely there because the direction of travel is very clear. I think in lots of things that we found, and maybe it will be frustrated, but I would probably say we need a couple of years. We would like to have a change tomorrow but from one site we cannot close something without creating its replacement and how we ...

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (1): We want to get that right, that replacement.

The Minister for Children and Education:

We want to get it right so you do not want to just sign off immediately a replacement. You say you invested money, you have invested time, you have done the replacement and at the same time ... so for me the top priority for this year around the Greenfields, there are 3. First, it is really to get the clarity, which way we are going, to have a long-term vision because the outcome for children, it is clear for us, it is how we get into that outcome. So by the end there is full clarity where we are going with money and how it will be developed. Secondly, is to make sure at the meantime, Greenfields becomes a more therapeutic place. Like we have new furniture that should arrive, it needs to create a more homey feeling. It is to ensure that education is delivered and we can do it now as we are creating the long term. It is not stopping us. Thirdly, we have £3.5 million in the capital for this Government Plan to have a therapeutic home. For me, it is just the beginning of transformation because the moment that we will make sure that the early intervention, we have this therapeutic care in the community available, we might in another ... it will not be immediately but in another 10 years we will see less ... 5 years probably but in 10 years for sure, it may be different needs than we have now. It is kind of how you are moving the whole machine around.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (2):

I think you have to look at how opinions have changed and how the whole world has changed. When you think that Greenfields is not a particularly old building but today it is very rare that you get a child with a custodial sentence. But Greenfields was built to have 8, in effect, secure rooms. That is where we have moved from. A very different view on how you would manage children who have complex needs and there might be criminal behaviour but we have moved a long way from the concept of that building that had 8 secure rooms. Now we have to look to the future and we have to get the future right for those children. It has to be something that is, shall we use the word "homely". Yes, they have to consider that it is their home, if for the very rare cases that are in Greenfields or its replacement. I think you will be aware that there are times when it is empty. That is a very good thing.

The Connétable of Grouville :

May I ask a supplementary? Just so you are aware, our remit goes across into Home Affairs as well, which includes probation and it includes the prison service.

[10:30]

When we visited H.M.P. (His Majesty's Prison) La Moye there were a couple of hints in that room about the future of Greenfields, a couple of hints about things perhaps being included at La Moye. Exactly this is what I mean and this is what the chair means by clarity. I think it is really important that we have clarity about the future of that facility because I think at the moment there is a little bit of confusion.

The Minister for Children and Education:

It is a confusion for various reasons and it is really important not to make a policy because of the one specific case. We have a case and we are working on it. We had a meeting including the Chief Minister and Minister for Home Affairs, and everyone, to give support. It is really good that you are raising it because last week I had a team meeting with the Minister for Children and Young People in Scotland because we are looking and we started to explore what has been Promise Scotland. Scotland now in December will debate arrangements for 16 and 18 that they will not go to jail. The proposition on the table that children should not be in jail, should not be in custodial, but if they need to be it is something that should be secure therapeutic care. This is how the whole system of action, not just with us and other places, it is a very clear direction that they are children. Children are children. They are not adults. They have different behaviours, challenging behaviours but we need to find a way how we address it.

The next question is about indoor and outdoor facilities. In your recent written response to the panel regarding upgrades to C.Y.P.E.S. estates head of expenditure, you have referenced the importance of addressing both inadequate indoor and outdoor facilities. From what you have seen so far, what do you expect to be high on the list of inadequate facilities requiring attention?

The Minister for Children and Education:

There are a couple of things. First of all, I mentioned previously it is the playing fields and if a primary school does not have a playing field it is the basic that needs to happen. I would say most of the St. Helier schools, apart from one, do not have an adequate place outside and also not enough place inside when I went to the First Tower School. I do not know, did you visit First Tower School or are you planning?

The Connétable of Grouville :

We went to Springfield, did we not?

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

We have not as a panel. Yes, so I am familiar with the school.

The Minister for Children and Education:

You are familiar with the school. Again, when you are looking into the areas and schools are doing so much to create possible outside space but we know that it is far away from being right for the children. Another thing, I went to Victoria Prep, I think it is the only school that children used to go to toilets outside, so they do not have inside toilets. We are in the 21st century and to see children coming for portacabins, that is going back I do not know how many years and it is second hand from J.C.G. (Jersey College for Girls) I think, if I remember the history correctly, it is something that should not happen.

The Connétable of Grouville :

They were there when I was there, by the way.

The Minister for Children and Education: Were they?

The Connétable of Grouville : Yes, 100 years ago.

The Minister for Children and Education:

If you are asking me this is something that is really inadequate.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay. Also, with reference to the C.Y.P.E.S.'s estate head of expenditure, when do you hope to identify a site for the central St. Helier Youth and Community Centre?

The Minister for Children and Education:

If it would be in my hands I would identify tomorrow but, unfortunately, it is not in my hands. I do not want to share in the public because it is kind of an ongoing conversation. I am raising this almost twice a month. Again, I had a conversation with our Constable, we are all St. Helier , we are St. Helier Deputies, we all want this and I think we need to really work with the Parish. There are 3 options for this, different options, and I am thinking maybe mainly to call this meeting because kind of with the Parish response, and I feel that it is the Minister for Infrastructure because I am not building, it is the infrastructure. But because you service under me I think that I will commit to call a meeting between Jersey Property Holdings - you would be invited - the Parish and my officers and then we need to progress; it is clear for me.

Deputy C.D . Curtis : Yes, that would be good.

The Minister for Children and Education:

But there is a point of action for us; there is the Tower, remember.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay. Next question is from me again about revenue growth funding. C.Y.P.E.S. is the proposed recipient of over £18 million of revenue growth funding in 2023. Before going into specifics about each new programme, please could you provide some further detail about what work has been done to consider the sustainability and longevity of the new programmes?

The Minister for Children and Education:

There are very different things for the growth funding, I am a bit because the demographics, which is an additional funding, it is not something that we are statutory obliged. Demographics relate to children coming into education, children moving from primary education, which is cheaper, to secondary education, which is more expensive. Demographics, it is how many children it is basically numbers that are not dependant on us; the birth rate does not depend on me. What I will say, this will be funded because of statutory obligation within, for example, demographics part, the same with Jersey Premium. There is some stuff that are statutory, they must, and we will supply them and if we will need to cut other departments and we will discuss. We need to think what is next, the statutory obligations will be funded.

Deputy B. Porée :

Can I ask you a question that is to the Minister with regards to inclusion? How will the additional revenue programme titled "Education Reform Inclusion Review" address the recommendations of the independent inclusion review undertaken by the Government of Jersey in 2021?

The Minister for Children and Education:

Thank you. I will certainly answer and if you have a very specific question to the numbers, that sits with Jonathan because he developed all these big spreadsheets and we have gone several times on several spreadsheets. Basically we all know an evidence-based is clear that our support for children, additional needs for children, multilingual learners, children from different backgrounds, is not sufficient. It was clear from our reports. Also, we know that to make sure that we are addressing these needs we need to have enough people who would work with them; it is a different ration. If we are looking into the inclusion programme we are looking into extra staff, so 117 people should be recruited for specifically this part of bidding and they will continue to work. They will be recruited on full-time but it all depends on the needs of the school. Some will go straight to the school and some will be held centrally. Why is it important to be held centrally? Because, for example, last week just before the States Assembly I had a meeting, and there were some things identified through the year. For example, requisite need and assessment will be done in January, it means that the funding needs to follow the need. We have some funding for some people centrally who would be able to support the school and support the child and support the family because it is really important to make support. What I found out with my engagement with the public, with parents who raised a concern that it has not been done enough, it was very clear that we need to work with them together. We need to give support to the teachers because teachers' workload, they need to teach but they also need to give so they need enough support to make sure somebody is looking after the child. Supported the teacher, supported the child and also parents because, as a parent, I can see how difficult to have this assessment to say this is what is happening and how you continue to work together to create the right environment, not just in school because it is also at home. Sometimes the child can behave well at school because there is lots of support and come home and completely go in a different direction. The parent can be frustrated because it is really difficult for a parent to deal with difficult behaviours and we need to support parents as well, not just the child. I think that is really important for me and I think one of my main, main, main, main goals is to connect different pots, the kind of pots we have within the department. Because we have C.A.M.H.S. (Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services) and we have an inclusion team, and when C.A.M.H.S. did the assessment the child has autism, the child is highly-functioned, for example, it needs to be connected. The conversation should be held with your C.A.M.H.S., between the inclusion team, because parents of a child need to make sure that it is clear that it is not that one finished but others did not pick up. It is really to make this connection. It is connected to the outside providers, that

they will understand how it works. It is really to connect to those. We have very good services but we still do not have this connection. We had a conversation with my director general that this is top priority to wrap services around and connect them and it is a challenge.

Deputy B. Porée :

Staffing recruitment is going to be your major focus.

The Minister for Children and Education: Yes.

Deputy B. Porée :

Have you got an idea how many staff are you looking to recruit to support you with it?

The Minister for Children and Education: Is it only for inclusion or in general?

Deputy B. Porée : Inclusion, so that is

The Minister for Children and Education: Inclusion, 117.

Deputy B. Porée : 117.

The Minister for Children and Education:

I need to say it, to be fair, and remember I brought it up previously, that we are looking into different areas because sometimes difficulties if children with special needs, it is more difficult, we have been told by a headteacher it is much more difficult to recruit in town schools a teaching assistant than in country schools. Are we looking into different types of challenges, different types of recruitment, different types of rate? I do not know, I am just throwing it there but everything needs to be considered. It is about teaching assistants that work in term time. Are we looking into having a teaching assistant working year-round? Again, we need to see how we are addressing it but we must do it.

Deputy B. Porée :

We know that is an issue, is it not?

The Minister for Children and Education: Sorry?

Deputy B. Porée :

We know this is an issue with part-time teaching assistants

The Minister for Children and Education: It is an issue.

Deputy B. Porée :

and now they stay in work with that gap during the summer holidays.

The Minister for Children and Education:

These are conversations that are going with S.E.B. (States Employment Board). It is not my remit but we definitely raised it with S.E.B. and it is an ongoing conversation to help us find a solution and it is going also with the Ministerial population and the skills group. I really need to say I am grateful that we have a delivery unit. Jonathan, you are also connected to the delivery unit. If you would like to detail us about recruitment we can go later because I know that you probably have plans

Deputy B. Porée :

We can come back to you at another time, if that is okay.

The Minister for Children and Education: Yes.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Yes, 117 is very challenging in this day and age.

Deputy B. Porée : A lot of work.

The Minister for Children and Education:

We need 117 that will be in the system. I think that they estimated lately it was around 30 that were recruited from different types of contract. We have some people already in the system but they are not on full contracts, they are not full who work with us and they will be willing to have stability and this would allow. It is a jigsaw puzzle for me.

Yes, hopefully it will be easier once the work conditions are sure to be improved to recruit those staff members you need.

The Minister for Children and Education: Yes, I think you are right.

Deputy B. Porée :

Okay, thank you. I have got another question for you: what will the additional funding for the inclusion programme provide in terms of the £6.1 million that had been already given by yourselves?

The Minister for Children and Education:

Yes, if we will approve it in December in the Government Plan; it is ring-fenced. You can ask would we need more. At the moment it will have 117 - if we recruit 117 - that this money will allow us and we are settled, we will see how does it work and where are the gaps? It is an open conversation with the Council of Ministers. Basically the Council of Ministers said: "If you recruit 117 and you settle down and you need more and you have more needs, come and talk to us", so it is an open door.

Deputy B. Porée :

That, I suppose, leads on to the next question, that the proposed funding within the Government Plan is equal over the next 4 years.

[10:45]

Do you expect that to change, based on the priorities within the programme?

The Minister for Children and Education:

Yes. It is important to emphasise that inflation be - if I understood correctly from all Treasury's presentations that they have. I am not an accountant - that going forward any inflation bit, it is different funding that will be incorporated when they are updating the Government Plan; this is correct. This was my understanding, yes. The inflation part we took out, the moment that we will settle with 117, and we can say this school has this amount of children with this special need and we are missing this sum, the door is open to the Council of Ministers. It was very clear around the table and I think it was right to challenge, they said: "Do it, deliver, come back to us."

Deputy B. Porée :

That is good, thank you. Following this hearing, would you be happy to provide us with a detailed written breakdown of the £6.1 million for 2023?

The Minister for Children and Education: Yes, in writing.

Deputy B. Porée :

In writing, yes, following this meeting.

The Minister for Children and Education:

Yes, sure. Yes, we have it, it is written, yes, sure.

Deputy B. Porée : Thank you, Minister.

The Minister for Children and Education:

It is another point that we have a meeting on this, okay.

Deputy B. Porée :

Please can you describe how the delivery of the inclusion programme will be reviewed for C.Y.P.E.S.?

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (1): How we know it will be effective, is that ?

Deputy B. Porée : Yes.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (1): Will we review it periodically so that

The Minister for Children and Education:

First of all, probably I would need to bring inclusion. First of all, yes, okay, because we are in the beginning of the programme and I think it would be reviewed at least quarterly to see where we are, how it progressed. Also, I think that for tomorrow in my calendar, I am not sure, I will ask the question. I am looking at the officers because I am really not sure. It is still in my calendar. We have a meeting but it might be moved, to give you a briefing for the inclusion. It was moved because this morning I looked it was still in my calendar, it is okay. I was planning to be tomorrow but if it moved maybe I will not be there but officers. We would like to give you a really full briefing about the whole inclusion programme; where we are now, how we progress for the stakeholders. Because

there are several workstreams within the inclusion and I think that the briefing would help to give the full picture around the inclusion programme because I think it is major.

Programme Director, Education Reform: May I?

The Minister for Children and Education: Yes.

Programme Director, Education Reform:

May I add an extra bit of detail just on that point to show where we are now? There are probably 3 levels of oversight that will be provided to this programme. The first is that organisationally the corporate portfolio management office will take an interest in this programme because of the significance of financial investment and the importance of supporting children; so that is the first of 3. The second of 3 under the interim director general's leadership is that we have a similar oversight body at the departmental level and this is a priority programme. There will also be, I think, monthly oversights to make sure there is performance. But perhaps most importantly - and you can see this in our informal inclusion briefing - is that we have established a delivery board where we have a chair, who is the director general of Justice and Home Affairs, Kate Briden, independent of the department, to lead the challenge and a robust assessment of delivery. That board also has an independent expert in the world of children with special educational needs to provide both the chair and the overall delivery board with some further challenge and insight into how things are best delivered. We have been very, very clear to focus on quality of implementation and, your earlier words, sustainability of that implementation. What we put in place has to stay in place for the benefit of those children. If it starts to unfold at all or peel back we know that is not good. But we would take the opportunity of course to provide a more detailed briefing when diaries allow.

Deputy B. Porée : Thank you.

The Minister for Children and Education:

I think it is really important to emphasise, so we have Ministerial Directions and this is like we have quarterly public hearings with yourself and this is how a Ministerial team would be reassured quarterly. But the team is working day to day and, to be honest, if I am thinking how many times I spoke this week about inclusion, different things within the inclusion, it is day to day, but it is really important to have this course for me every 3 months where is the progress to see a bigger picture.

Thank you and thank you for the explanation on the delivery board, thank you.

Programme Director, Education Reform:

Of course, as the Minister says, that is all enabling her to have oversight on performance.

Deputy B. Porée :

Great, thank you so much.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

If I can just add a question about that inclusion part. I understand there are a lot of children excluded from school at the moment or a fair number of children who are excluded from school right now. I just wondered if there is any work to sort of urgently address that issue.

The Minister for Children and Education:

Chair, I thank you for the question and I would like really to understand, when we are talking excluded, are we talking about the children that are not in any form of education?

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

I was speaking about the children who are not in the mainstream schools and not settled anywhere else. They may be in some temporary plan and so they have been excluded from school.

The Minister for Children and Education:

This was different public messages going around about exclusion. First of all, we do need to work hard to make sure that as many children as possible will be included; it is clear. This is the direction of travel. There are children in home education, which they struggle to find a space in the mainstream or the parents had their own decision. Now we will have a meeting with home education but they are following the curriculum. This is one part of children that I do not think they are excluded but they opt out for home education. If I am going to the exclusion, first of all, we have 2 schools which give provision for children with difficulties, and now I would say maybe we need to visit the schools as well and learn about La Sente. I have learned about it when I was elected. We have La Sente Primary, we have 12 children at La Sente Primary and this school will move into, hopefully, Gas Place school because this is exactly the provision. They need a special entrance, they need a special team; they will struggle in the mainstream education. It does not matter how much support we provide at this instance because of the situations. It always will be some children that will need separate support and it is not support of Mont à L'Abbé, we are talking about more complex needs and behaviour but it is not about really special, special need. We have La Sente Secondary and we have, I think, 36 or 38 at La Sente Secondary. We have difficulties with the estate. It is something that I was working into but they do have deliveries. Our main aim is to bring them back to the main

education. One of the things that we have seen since COVID when the numbers increased is around the anxiety part. To go to a big school and to be involved and distress, so they are receiving education and we are building them a programme of how they are going back to the mainstream. Sometimes it can be an hour a week or 2 hours a week or 3 hours a week.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (1): Just not all or nothing, they can still

The Minister for Children and Education:

Yes, they can still and we do have, I think, the last time that the class will have approximately 12 children that are not in any but we have had

Interim Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

I was just going to add in addition to that, we have recruited a deputy headteacher from Grainville School and Grainville puts in a lot of work on inclusion and particularly for children who were looked after and in the care of the Minister. That deputy headteacher is heading up the education part of what we are calling our intensive youth support service offer and there are 12 children identified within that that are working with that deputy head and the team, also with Mark Capern in the Youth Service, to really support those children in having alternative education provision. It is very early days but we are seeing some good early results of engagement and attendance and particularly good results with the deputy head. That is the model that we are looking to build on with that as well, tying in to La Sente. That is something that we are also connecting to any young persons or children who would be in Greenfields as well.

The Minister for Children and Education:

It is really important to do this breakdown. I do not know, sometimes children do not want to go to school and they refuse, like any child, and sometimes my child can refuse to go to school; just one day does not want. There are usually more difficulties for parents when children have additional needs. Our core work, especially with extra staff, how we are supporting parents and how we are supporting children in school to have this transition. But if we are talking about really children that are not on the radar, we will always have some; it is not that we say that it is none. Hopefully, with early investment in early years and wraparound support we will not have 52 children in total secondary age school that are not in the mainstream.

Deputy C.D . Curtis : Okay, thanks.

The Minister for Children and Education:

Again, it is important we said 52 because it was also in the newspaper; 40 of them or 38, I need to see the number, the last one, at La Sente Secondary. They do have provision and 12 are going through this intensive youth support and support of the children, trying to find a way to bring them back.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay, thanks. Sort of building on that but more generally, what work have you done with schools to develop proposals for the inclusion programme and what feedback was received?

The Minister for Children and Education:

Thank you for the question because, first of all, we need to continue to work with schools. There are schools that we have progressed more than others. There are schools that had more investment this year than others. There are schools that have more dedicated and trained staff around children with special needs than others. There are schools that have more complex needs, if you are talking about just a premium, if you are talking about social needs, et cetera. First of all, we need to make sure that we have enough A.R.C. (additional resource centre) provision and this work is really ongoing because before we have A.R.C. provision for autism or A.R.C. provision for hearing. What we are looking at to have is an A.R.C. provision more general but to have it in each school. It is not just only 2 schools or 3 schools that receive the children with it is almost in every school. We spoke about the secondary schools, so each secondary school will need to have their own A.R.C. general provision, so the children who live next to one school do not need to travel to other schools because the only hearing special provision would be in that school. We need to make sure and it is very clear. I think we are more aware, we have more diagnoses. The numbers of referrals for neuro and diverse assessment increased or half of C.A.M.H.S.'s assessment, half of C.A.M.H.S.'s referrals around 600-plus. It is around assessment for A.D.H.D. (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder) and autism. It is the numbers that we know and we need to provide and we need to arrange. Nobody expected, I think, or nobody planned for these numbers some year ago. It was like Richard said, we were in a different place before and now we are aware and we need to build

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (1):

I think the headteachers are all very engaged with this piece of work, are they not? I think they met last week with the review team.

The Minister for Children and Education: Yes.

Programme Director, Education Reform:

If I may add, in terms of engagement first of all, there are several different aspects of the inclusion programme where schools have been involved; it is often through headteachers or through their special educational needs co-ordinators. We have work around how funding is allocated to schools for the benefit of children through the inclusion review and we have headteachers of course who sits on that group. The Minister has quite frequently been meeting groups of headteachers and this has been very much part of the conversation. Our central inclusion team as recently as last week met with all of the primary headteachers and the secondary headteachers. In fact to an earlier question around the urgency with which we are focusing on what might be the risk of exclusion, that was one of the subject matters that was being discussed and debated just last week. In terms of feedback, I think you can probably infer from some of the ways that we are building our Government Plan proposal that we have had lots of feedback around the need for additional resources. That of course leads to our proposal and it leads to the recruitment challenge that we have. That is around creating more capacity in the system but we also need to increase the capability, so we need to help people be able to deal as well as possible with these new and emerging needs. An example there is that we have been putting all of our S.E.N.C.o. (special educational needs co-ordinator) community through Masters level qualifications around special education needs co-ordination in order that they can then help the school, the leadership of the school, better plan and provide for that school's group of children who need additional support. Lots of other aspects around building capacity and building capability in direct response to feedback from our schools, much of which the Minister has heard first hand.

[11:00]

The Minister for Children and Education:

Thank you for mentioning S.E.N.C.o.s for people who hear us online because some of them are maybe not aware about the term. When you requested the table of how this £6 million will be distributed and I was really reassured when and asks it was several tables that were developed. But in that spreadsheet we are very clear how the needs and what needs to be in each school, it is like funding for S.E.N.C.o.s, for special educational needs co-ordinators, funding for safeguard, funding for this. You would see in the spreadsheet per school how it is standing now and it will

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

That is correct, thank you. Yes, great, my next few questions were about the A.R.C.s but you have answered them. There was just one: did the consultations include parents as well?

The Minister for Children and Education:

I think that this is where we are going now. Do you remember I mentioned at the beginning that we are going into the consultation about implementation of the inclusion? This is literally starting now. We had these reports, we put staff around the reports but we need to deliver. The consultation will start Jonathan, I am not sure if it is December or January and we will need to conclude in June. I think, yes, do I remember correct? At the moment it will conclude in June and definitely parents are I spoke about the children before but I feel like I did not mention parents but for me it is default; they are part of this consultation, yes.

Deputy C.D . Curtis : Okay, thanks.

Programme Director, Education Reform:

Can I just add? If we also go back in time a little bit to what prompted the work around inclusion, there was a lot of engagement and consultation under what was called the big conversation, which was engagement with a whole host of external stakeholders, including parents and children and other providers in the sector that led to what became the education reform programme which includes the inclusion review, and the Minister is absolutely right. So not only have we had lots of engagement on the way in, we continue to sustain engagement with parents and with children throughout this process. Again, connecting that answer the Minister earlier talked about, in the response to a value-for-money question, that we now have our own capability within a department to undertake that kind of engagement.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Yes, and that was a really interesting report but it was from 2019 so I just wanted to see that parents were still being engaged.

Programme Director, Education Reform: It continues, yes.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

I think then on to your question, Mark.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Yes, I am sure you are getting the impression now that this panel is very interested in inclusion which is right.

The Minister for Children and Education: No, I think that is really important.

The Connétable of Grouville :

It is very important going forward. I just wanted to have a little bit of a dig into the funding. Can you advise what proportion of the inclusion programme money will fund additional staff roles?

The Minister for Children and Education: Basically it is all money going to staff the roles.

The Connétable of Grouville : All of it?

The Minister for Children and Education:

It will be there but from my last recollection, this particular stuff is going to the staff, yes.

Programme Director, Education Reform:

The Minister is absolutely right. The vast majority is going to be invested in the workforce. There are some small slithers of funding that might do other things. For example, if we have to do something as it relates to working with our third sector providers, that might be a review that we will need or a piece of work we need to commission. There might also be something around a business system, so a computer system that helps us track what is going on but the Minister is absolutely right. The vast majority is invested in the workforce and perhaps I can answer that question specifically with a table that you have asked for.

The Minister for Children and Education:

I think when we are talking also about the providers because we do look into commissioning staff to places so Brighter Future, for example, or N.S.P.C.C. (National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children) so it is still people who would deliver services. It is not that it is going to other purposes.

The Connétable of Grouville :

My next question was about procurements within that so you have answered that already. Thank you very much.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay, so now just looking at the children's social care reform programme, what will the additional funding for the children's social care reform programme provide?

The Minister for Children and Education:

The request basically involved a comprehensive reform of the system of care in Jersey through the main 5 work streams. Most of them will also be statutory requirements with enacting of the Children and Young People Law so it is really important to understand. So there are strategic priorities within this business case. The first strategic priority is the future and undertake the whole system core production design of the case system. We are talking around £820,000 that will go towards this big strategic piece of work. We are engaging with Promise Scotland because they have done reform and we are engaging with Leeds. They have been here before. I have found some communication because Leeds have done a very impressive transformation of their children's services.

The Connétable of Grouville : Did you say "Leeds", Minister?

The Minister for Children and Education:

Yes. So, basically, the first strategic priority is really to look through this transformation. The second, Staying Together, is early help and intervention. It means to provide support to the families to stay together because we all know that the best place for the child is within the family. If we do enough and there is enough money in this Government Plan specifically for these purposes to make sure that we do as much as we can to support families and put them right together before we proceed to anything else. This is the second part within the business case. The third one is providing loving homes. It is residential home improvements. I am not sure if you are already aware, because I was not aware before becoming a Minister, that all residential homes will be impacted by the care commissioner, which we are welcoming, because I think it is really good and important to have an independent view and to tell us what we need to do right, so I am welcoming it. So we have another part within this £6 million-plus funding, which will go towards residential children's homes improvement providing independent scrutiny care planning and specialist foster care. Again, we had a recruitment campaign for foster care. I think there are 14 now in training and if we cannot have children in families for whatever reason, we would like to see the second. It is how we are creating the foster families undertaking, yes.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (2): This sort of also overlaps with the ...

The Minister for Children and Education: The experience from yesterday.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (2):

Yes, well, I was not going to mention yesterday. I spent a complete day with a foster carer yesterday which was a really sort of enlightening and quite fulfilling sort of day. What I was going to say is specialist foster carers are very, very important as it is another means by which we no longer need to put a child into Greenfields because there is a specialist foster carer who can fulfil those requirements, activities and care that those children need, those who are perhaps particularly

vulnerable and perhaps have been a danger to themselves and others. Those are places where specialist foster carers work extremely well and it means that there is no need for placing that child into Greenfields or whatever its future equivalent might be on.

The Connétable of Grouville : Or off-Island.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (2):

Of course, with foster carers, there is quite a long lead-in time. It is marvellous we have 14 people in training but of course they are not yet available. Anyway, I digress, but thank you.

The Minister for Children and Education:

Another strategic priority within this case, and this is number 4, is Working Together and this is what I said before that we have developed over the year. So what they found in the department, and I do not know if you are familiar, you have social workers, you have children and young people, you have mental health, you have corporate parenting and you have good pockets of work but they are not connected and this is the problem. So the idea is how do we connect this? From the parent perspective and from the child perspective, it does not matter if it is inclusion or it is C.A.M.H.S. or it is social care. For them, we are C.Y.P.E.S., we are government, we are providing and if they need housing, the social worker needs the Housing Department rep together in one room. It does not matter how much a social worker will do and support if there is no home in which a family can live safely. All the work of a social worker will be going to nothing and we cannot deliver without other departments. It is so important that corporate parenting come in and the laws come in. We are still working as a corporate parent. We have the first meetings we are planning to do in December because we are corporate parents for these children and we need to work together. I will lead on it as the Minister for Children and Education and the Chief Minister is completely with us. She participated yesterday when we had a board workshop trying to understand the best way to deliver and how to do the oversight and accountability. This is the way and these are the 4 priorities really working together. It is not a big budget there. It is £600,000 but we need to put it right. The fifth priority is Thriving Together and we are looking into setting up a communal 3-bedroom house and also set up 9 supported live-in beds. Fourteen are needed. So, basically, there are care leavers that we need to create a place for. Some of them will be ready to move into independent living but some of them still need some transition because it is one idea to live independently but, as we all know when we move house, what does it mean in practice? It can be different so we need to make sure that we prepare with them that they will not fail and that they will just be prepared and successful in their independent living.

May I just ask, when you mentioned some of them will move on completely independently, I suppose you will have to think about co-ordination with housing and Andium because they will have to be on a priority list to move on?

The Minister for Children and Education:

Yes, I had a meeting with Andium a couple of weeks ago and we have discussed my Ministerial prerogative with my Ministerial Plan and we specifically paid attention to and we agreed and had a conversation at my Ministerial meeting that our department will notify them as much as possible in advance what are our requirements. They sometimes have a new development and if we have a child with specific needs, for example, acoustics, there are some very different requirements. If this young person is now 15 and in another 3 years we would need to have support with accommodation, and Andium are building a new flat and house development, they can allocate in advance. We had a really good conversation and we strive to plan and to notify them so they can ...

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

All right, thanks. You have explained the objectives I think which was going to be one of our questions as well. Could you provide us with a detailed written breakdown of the £6.5 million for 2023?

The Minister for Children and Education: Sure, yes.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Thank you. You answered one of our questions about the specialist foster carers, which should help to reduce the off-Island placements as well, I expect.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (2):

Yes, it would do and that is one thing that I am particularly keen on. Of course, as I say, we have to train those foster carers but this recruitment campaign has been extremely successful and I was very pleased to see that. Also my experience of yesterday finding out perhaps the challenges that foster parents can face with even quite young children who really need some specialist care. I enjoyed my day, yes, thank you.

[11:15]

The Minister for Children and Education:

It is difficult but if we are realistic about foster carers and we are in the public domain, it was the campaign but it does not mean that the campaign stops. We still need foster parents. We still need foster carers and just last weekend, it was a social occasion and somebody who never thought about it and they were supplied the details, we have so much options. We need foster carers for weekends to give the respite and give some space for the parents. For an emergency, that can be one week or it can be 5 days or it can be 2 days. It can be temporary. You can choose what age. You will be trained. You are committing and signing immediately because we really want to keep our children on the Island. We would like to give them this opportunity to grow on the Island and we need this help.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Yes, and I can add I was a foster carer for quite a number of years so I would encourage anyone who is interested to find out more.

The Minister for Children and Education: Thank you.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

It is a very rewarding thing to do.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Can I ask another supplementary, Chair?

Deputy C.D . Curtis : Sure.

The Connétable of Grouville :

How long is this training? How long does it take?

The Minister for Children and Education: Six months in total, if I understand correct.

Interim Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills: I think it is around 6 months.

The Connétable of Grouville : Really? Okay.

The Minister for Children and Education:

Any time during the training if people feel it is too much, it is fine. I think it is really important to go through this. It is not day-to-day training. People need to work to live their life but it is important that we will give them space and tools then to make this decision.

The Connétable of Grouville :

It is quite a considerable programme. It is a commitment, yes.

The Minister for Children and Education: Yes.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Moving on to another question about the C.Y.P.E.S. estate, thank you for your answers that we received last night. I just wanted to drill in a little bit further about the therapeutic children's home and the £4.25 million that has been set aside over the next 2 years. Please could you provide us with an outline of how this funding will be used.

The Minister for Children and Education:

This is a very good question because it can be anything using the States property and reconfigure or to buying new property.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (2): Yes, it links into Greenfields.

The Minister for Children and Education: There is some option with Greenfields, yes.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (2):

That is right. Some of that therapeutic care would be provided at Greenfields but that may not necessarily be the right place to do that and so, once again, as we are looking at this, we have to ensure that whatever we do this time is correct in the future.

The Minister for Children and Education:

I think, as you mentioned, there is next to Greenfields a separate house.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (2): A house, yes.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Yes, above it. Right above the entrance.

The Minister for Children and Education:

We had difficulties with the planning to progress. I asked to see the documents to understand the terms and conditions.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (2):

There is a covenant, is there not, there which causes a problem?

The Minister for Children and Education:

There is a covenant there but it is there, we know that we did it and now we just need to work out the details.

The Connétable of Grouville :

What specialist services will a therapeutic children's home provide?

The Minister for Children and Education:

No, I can answer. I think what is really important is the package because one child will need more emotional support and one child will need more resilience skills and another child will need to know how to build up their confidence. It is really just look at the child and accept what this child needs to get to the best place in their life. Because I am coming I think from the social work perspective, I know their needs are so different. The behaviour can be the same. If you really look inside, their reasons for this are different and we need really to support, give them therapy and to give them options. What would you like to do in your life? Can you dream? What is the biggest dream and how can you get there? It is really working on a very individual basis.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (2):

What we learned from the Care Inquiry of course is that children need loving homes. I think that is the critical difference that of course there will be all these services around the child that the specialist foster carer would facilitate the child accesses but the key difference would be that that child would be in a loving home.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Really, this all boils down to Richard's point.

The Minister for Children and Education:

It is, by the way, £3.5 million. You said £2.5 million but it is £3.5 million. Maybe it was some typo. I am not sure as I do not have the letter in front of me.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Thank you for that, Minister. Again, we were just anxious as a panel that, to minimise the number of young people that are sent off-Island, this therapeutic home, I would assume, would be minimising that.

The Minister for Children and Education:  

Absolutely. This is the idea and this is the way forward for us, yes.

Deputy B. Porée :

I am going to ask a question anyway about the demographic needs assessment.

The Minister for Children and Education: Sure, yes.

Deputy B. Porée :

So the panel notes that the funding for the demographic and needs assessment programme will increase annually between 2023 and 2026. How often is the forecast model for education funding requirements reviewed?

The Minister for Children and Education:

It is reviewed annually, from my knowledge, and when I challenged the numbers because I needed to learn this as well, I have been told by officers that their projections were pretty accurate from year to year. I asked why we needed so much and what has happened. We had a big spike and what is happening is they are moving now into the secondary. Next year, year 7 is the highest ever number that we would have in year 7 moving from year 6 to year 7. At the moment, they will stay longer in secondary education. So the last year it was high, this year is high and next year also. So compared to what we had, they are just growing so we will need to put this money in.

Deputy B. Porée : Yes, thank you.

The Connétable of Grouville :

On the same subject, the annex outlines that some of the funding in the demographics and needs assessments programme will support increased numbers of pupils with a record of need. Please could you outline how this funding differs from the funding allocated in the inclusion review programme?  

The Minister for Children and Education:

Brilliant question. I asked exactly the same question when I saw the numbers.

The Connétable of Grouville : Great minds.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

There was a conversation about that.

The Minister for Children and Education:

We had exactly the same conversations. What happened? This is the way in between the old formula and the new formula. Yes, it is not complicated. I hope I can know what is best from all that I have learned. What happened? You have the basic standard of money per student going into the education. If you have this, you get this. If you have that, you get that. So this is pure demographics according to the standard formula that we have to provide the same services that we have now. So if today we would not have inclusion growth, take all the inclusion extra services that we would put in to support families because we need extra people to support children, we will still provide services for children with a record of needs. They are not good enough but they exist so it bases numbers purely on what services exist but we know they are not sufficient so the inclusion brings in extra services. Does it make sense or not?

The Connétable of Grouville : Yes.

The Minister for Children and Education:

So if we did not have an inclusion, it is a top-up.

The Connétable of Grouville : Yes. Like a top-up, yes.

The Minister for Children and Education:

It is like a top-up, so you have X amount that you will give to the school anyway because they have children with a record of needs and they will continue to do the same services. They would have the same ratio of the children but we know that, depending on the school and depending on the number, you need to do extra services. So X plus extra services according to it.

The Connétable of Grouville :

The S.E.N. (special educational needs) pupils will move up through the school and then maybe leave so that changes the requirement within the school.

The Minister for Children and Education:

Yes, because this will change because this is to provide the base services that we have and the inclusion bit is top-ups to provide extra services to bring services to the level where we would like to have them.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (1):

This demographics is kind of business as usual but for more children and the inclusion, extra funding is on top of business-as-usual improved services for all of those children. Does that make sense?

The Minister for Children and Education:

That makes sense. It took us time to go around ourselves but this is the basics. This is what we provide, business as usual, but we are not happy with business as usual. To make sure that me, my team, parents and children are happy with what we are providing, we need extra money on top of these numbers.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Sure. My next question which is close to my heart is very much from the same point; demographic and needs assessments. But just to ask: is there additional funding to regularise the contractual status of the Jersey Music Service tutors?

The Minister for Children and Education:

It is on the way. We have extra funding and it will be regularised. By the way, I had a meeting with the head of Jersey Music Service. They have all been offered full-time contracts.

The Connétable of Grouville : That is what I was going to ask, yes.

The Minister for Children and Education:

Some of them agreed and some of them were very happy to stay. The offer is on the table. Any of them can come and sign.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Well, the offer was there. That was my next question but you have offered them that. That is great.

The Minister for Children and Education:

So it is on the table. It is offered. Some of them signed. Some of them prefer to stay because they have different commitments or a different lifestyle but the offer is not off the table. It is there.

The Connétable of Grouville :

That is what I was going to ask. Thank you, Minister.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

All right, is there any provision for more school counsellors as part of this needs assessment?

The Minister for Children and Education:

It will be dependent on the school. Are we talking about specialists?

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Counsellors in schools, as they have in schools already, but there sometimes only is one and nobody to cover when they are away.

The Minister for Children and Education:

Okay, this is how we would like to move services towards the schools to ensure that there is always somebody there to meet the needs of the children. This is the idea when they talk about them coming into schools.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay, so the provision will ensure that there are school counsellors available in schools.

The Minister for Children and Education:

Absolutely, that you do not have a school who does not have a school counsellor because something happened. We will definitely ensure that we have enough provision of schools counsellors in schools.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay, now I have some next questions about social worker recruitment. Just looking at the time, I think we are coming to the end of our time in a few minutes. Are you okay to carry on?

The Minister for Children and Education: A few minutes, yes.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (2):

I cannot stay on longer because I had a Treasury briefing that started half an hour ago.

The Minister for Children and Education: We will do a couple of minutes.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (2):

So I will need to shoot off, if that is okay. I am already late for that one.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

All right, well, I will just carry on for now with some questions.

The Minister for Children and Education: Another 5 minutes then, yes.

Deputy C.D . Curtis : Okay.

The Minister for Children and Education:

You can always follow up with a written question and we will answer the written question.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Thank you, great. Please can you provide the panel with some more details about how the social worker recruitment and retention funding will reduce reliance on temporary staff?

The Minister for Children and Education:

Yes, it is one of the biggest problems that we have is the reliance on agencies. The Children's Services are really experiencing very, very difficult recruitment and retention challenges and impact on the capacity of the services and this is the reason that we have been allocated extra funding. You can see how the extra funding has been reducing over the years so, basically, there are several things that we can do. First of all, we must have services in place even if it is not ideal, but we must. We need to continue and this is why the funding in 2023 is higher. We are looking at how the Probation Service, Youth Service and system partners in other places are managing to recruit and retain social workers. We need to learn from their work. Another point is if we will commission proper the early intervention, what we call the lighter to N.S.P.C.C. or Brighter Future, it will release our workforce to concentrate on more complicated and statutory cases. We need to put it right to make sure that it is all in place. Another thing is we have training of ... I cannot remember, Rob, 14 or 13 social worker degrees started this year and another 12 have come through.

[11:30]

Again, 12 is an example that, hopefully at the finish, we will come through within 3 years and, hopefully, it will be fed into this. I cannot guarantee it. One more thing that I started to look at - and this is work in progress - is into higher apprenticeship so the people who already have a degree, graduates and undergraduates, there are programmes available through the universities within 2 years. If somebody would like to study psychology and criminology and finish their university work in finance even for X amount of years and they would like to be retrained, it usually takes 2 years and it is very practical. So half you are working already and you are studying because you already have a degree. So we are in touch with several universities to start to look into this type of programme. It will take a year because from what I have learned from higher education, you need to verify and it is a process to set up but, again, when we opened assistant psychologist positions, and I think it was 3 positions initially, we had 40 applicants from Jersey.

The Connétable of Grouville : Really? Did you say 40?

The Minister for Children and Education: Forty.

Deputy B. Porée :

It is always very high after that degree course, is it not, for social workers?

The Minister for Children and Education: Sorry?

Deputy B. Porée :

Yes, the numbers are normally quite high, are they not?

The Minister for Children and Education:

Yes, but I think it is really how we are positioned and how we are working. So I think that we really need to concentrate on young people who have a degree who came back and gone to different professions, and they have a passion in even being a teacher or a social worker. We need to provide this opportunity because if I am thinking about investment and value for money, we need to invest in the agency but they cost more. They cost more in accommodation and they do not provide the services so, basically, I would rather invest into bursaries for social workers. Then, hopefully, within 2 or 3 years, we will have locally trained somebody already on the Island connected to the Island. It is just creating this opportunity. It is, again, like a jigsaw puzzle. It is to say what we are commissioning to and making sure that our own workforce are concentrated on things and how we are training and learning from other services. The Probation Services have stability in social work.

Interim Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

Just to clarify the numbers, so we had 12 start in the first cohort. We have had 9 qualify for this year. We have 21 who are currently active in the training at this moment in time.

The Connétable of Grouville : Excellent.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Yes, it is a really good plan that one, is it not? Just about retention strategy for staff who are already there, has a Jersey supplement payable equally to all social work staff been considered?

The Minister for Children and Education:

This is something that we raised and it is with S.E.B. and it is a discussion because I just do not want to go into the legalities because it has been raised.

Deputy C.D . Curtis : All right.

The Minister for Children and Education:

It is not in my remit to decide about these particular contractual things.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay, one more question about the social workers.

The Minister for Children and Education: Sure.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Have any themes come out of exit interviews with social workers about their reasons for leaving?

The Minister for Children and Education:

I would need to get the details to you about the exit interviews around the social workers.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education (1): It is a good question.

The Minister for Children and Education:

It is a really good question and I do not want to give you information that I did not verify, and I will definitely follow it up.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Okay, that would be good to see.

The Minister for Children and Education: Yes, thank you for raising it.

The Connétable of Grouville : Yes, it would be good.

Deputy B. Porée :

Can we continue a bit longer? It is up to you, Chair.

The Minister for Children and Education: Maybe one question for something that is burning.

Deputy B. Porée :

I can try and throw a very quick one about the Jersey Premium virtual school. Okay, what does the additional funding for that particular Jersey Premium virtual school programme provide?

The Minister for Children and Education:

So, basically, at the virtual school, we have eligibility for the children that are looked after and are in the care of the Minister and they have the same access to schools to any educational offers that any other children would have.

Deputy B. Porée :

How many children do you have at the moment?

The Minister for Children and Education: I think 77.

Interim Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills: I would need to check.

The Minister for Children and Education: Okay, I will check the latest number.

Deputy B. Porée :

Okay, I suppose we will leave it at that.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

It is up to you. Can you carry on or shall we leave it at that point?

The Connétable of Grouville :

We have quite a few questions left but we could ask them by letter.

The Minister for Children and Education: Yes.

Deputy C.D . Curtis : Is that okay?

The Minister for Children and Education:

Yes, absolutely. I assumed that you wanted to ask about the school meals.

The Connétable of Grouville : That was our next one.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Yes, that is one of the things, yes.

The Minister for Children and Education:

I am really excited that we have this funding because I will say this because it really is my passion. Since I was a Back-Bencher, I worked with Deputy Rob Ward and I always supported him for the school meals and I think when we thought about it, it will be 200,000. When I look at the numbers, it is definitely much more than that but it is worth every penny because the providing of hot meals for children is addressing so many needs on health, social and well-being, so I am completely dedicated to this as well as the Chief Minister. I was really excited that she included it in her own 100-day plan so we are working really well together.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

Yes, and it is definitely something that will help to reduce inequality, I think.

The Minister for Children and Education:

Absolutely, and it is really important that children do not need to pay because one of the difficulties sometimes is who is receiving school meals for free and who does not receive and children do not even need to think about it. They just go there and receive meals. Nobody knows who gets it for free and who needs to pay, and this is really important. Have you visited one of the school meals and how it is distributed?

Deputy C.D . Curtis : No.

The Minister for Children and Education:

I went to visit one of the schools so, if you like, we will arrange it. I spoke with the children and, obviously, there were complaints about the menu. I have heard about this about broccoli but we are working on the menu.

Deputy C.D . Curtis : Interesting.

The Minister for Children and Education:

By the way, since that visit, we did make changes because there was a complaint about brown bread being next to the wraps and, apparently, it was making sure that they have enough fibre and it was the wastage that was raised and since the visit, now it is not a piece of bread on each plate. It is cut in the middle so we are reducing wastage and children are not eating bread by default, so that visit was very helpful. So you are welcome to join one of the schools meals and just give us feedback and see how it operates.

Deputy C.D . Curtis : Yes, it would be good.

The Connétable of Grouville : Awesome.

Deputy C.D . Curtis :

All right, well, thank you very much for answering our questions.

The Connétable of Grouville : Thank you.

Thank you very much. Thank you for your questions and challenges and there are several things that I am definitely going to look at.

Deputy C.D . Curtis : Thank you.

The Minister for Children and Education: Thank you.

[11:37]