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Children, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel
Government Plan 2024-2027
Witness: The Minister for Home Affairs
Friday, 10th November 2023
Panel:
Connétable M. Labey of Grouville (Vice-Chair) Connétable M. O'D. Troy of St. Clement
Witnesses:
Deputy H. Miles of St. Brelade , The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs Ms. K. Briden, Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs
Mr. R. Smith, Chief of Police, States of Jersey Police
[12:59]
Connétable M. Labey of Grouville (Chair):
Thank you, everybody, for coming along this afternoon. Welcome to the public hearing of the Children, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel.
[13:00]
Today is 10th November 2023 and this is our public hearing with the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs in relation to the panel's review of the proposed Government Plan for 2024 to 2027. I would like to draw everyone's attention to the following. This hearing will be filmed and streamed live. The recording and transcript will be published afterwards on the States Assembly website. So please, all electronic devices, including mobile phones, should be switched to silent. For the purposes of the recording and the transcript, I would be grateful if everyone who speaks could ensure that you state your name and role. We will be introducing ourselves in a minute and that may not be necessary. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that we have one hour and 30 minutes scheduled for this hearing. So, I would like to first of all introduce myself. I am Connétable Mark Labey from the parish of Grouville . I am Vice-Chair of the Children, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel.
Connétable M. O'D. Troy of St. Clement :
I am Connétable Marcus Troy from the parish of St. Clement and I am a panel member.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
I am Helen Miles and I am Minister for Justice and Home Affairs.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
Good afternoon. Kate Briden, Chief Officer for Justice and Home Affairs.
Chief of Police, States of Jersey Police: Good afternoon. Robin Smith, Chief of Police.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Thank you very much. Thank you to all who have attended today. We will move on to our question plan, but before we do so, I would like to call upon my colleague from St. Clement to just have a few remarks about what transpired last week during Storm Ciarán. Thank you, Marcus.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
Thank you, Chair. I think at this stage in the cycle we are a week, just over a week, after Storm Ciarán. It would be remiss of us not to acknowledge and laud the efforts across the Island from the States of Jersey Police, States of Jersey Ambulance Service, Fire and Rescue, Honorary Police, and the great many volunteers that stepped up to ensure that everything was done as quickly as possible for those people in need. The effort was awesome to witness. Thank you very much to all those people.
The Connétable of Grouville :
I would like to also add my grateful thanks to all the emergency services who aided us to open up our parishes. Thank you. Well, moving on now to our question plan, the first question relates to the money savings that you have published in the Government Plan. The 2024 value for money target for Justice and Home Affairs is £512,000, which is more than the 2023 target of £144,000. Please can you explain how the 2023 value for money savings have been offset using the non-pay inflation allocation?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
I think what we have had to do is look at that through non-staff expenditure. So that has been primarily equipment, training, materials for the services to carry out their work, always searching for efficiencies in this area, and we will be working closely with Commercial Services on contract effectiveness and efficiency, as well as reviewing all our purchasing arrangements where they are relevant and doing anything else that we can reasonably expect to help us deliver those savings.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Thank you very much, Minister. When will you know the areas of your department that these savings will be made from?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
I am going to look at my colleagues either side for that answer. Kate, would you like to start?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
Yes. So we are working on it already for 2024 onwards. As you say, Chair, it is a bigger number. It is quite significantly bigger than the 144 that we were able to offset with the non-pay inflation, as you have said and the Minister said. We will look, as the Minister has said, at all our arrangements again. We had done a zero-based budgeting exercise a number of years ago, 2 or 3 years ago, which has given us a very clear view of what we are spending and why. I would be interested in doing that again but it is quite resource intensive to do it. It is a specialist accountancy skill. So we will, as the Minister said, be working with Commercial Services on our contracting and on our purchasing, but that is a small proportion of our ... a comparatively small proportion of our expenditure.
The Connétable of Grouville : Absolutely.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
It is about 22 per cent for Justice and Home Affairs. So we have not got that many places to explore. From a staff point of view we are fairly convinced we are as lean as we can be in all the staff areas and that we are not carrying vacancies that are funded, but not for ...
The Connétable of Grouville :
Sure. I mean, it is our concern, obviously, that there is a large rise in that figure from one year to another. The value for money savings is approximately 1.3 per cent of the total J.H.A. (Justice and Home Affairs) net revenue expenditure. How is that target figure agreed upon?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
The Council of Ministers has looked at the fact that there is a £10 million value for money commitment needed across the Government and that is then pro rata'd out into departments against our percentage of the overall expenditure.
The Connétable of Grouville : So it is pro rata?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
Exactly, yes. It was less this year because 7 million of the 10 was held centrally, so the 144 is our proportion of the remaining 3 million.
The Connétable of Grouville : Yes, I understand.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
Whereas the 512 is our proportion of the full 10 million.
The Connétable of Grouville : Of the full total, yes.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
That is agreed at executive leadership team and then at Council of Ministers is the apportionment.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Because clearly we are concerned about it affecting front-line services and so on, so it is important that we understand where that is. In the section on delivering value for money in the proposed Government Plan, page 56 states that the Government will seek to work jointly with Guernsey where possible. What inter-Island work can you see for Justice and Home Affairs in future?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
I think it is interesting you raise that because I was able to have a conversation with some Guernsey politicians about this, and from a Justice and Home Affairs perspective certainly what we have done in previous years is have some shared training arrangements between the States of Jersey Police and States of Guernsey Police. I think we already share some bomb disposal capacity. So I have agreed to have further meetings with the relevant politicians in Guernsey to explore where there might be economies of scale in that area. I do not know if the Police Chief wants to say some more about that, please.
Chief of Police, States of Jersey Police:
There may be other opportunities in addition to training. Software licences are often those things that are referenced as being very expensive. How we operate in terms of our counter-terrorism deployments, otherwise known as Special Branch, how we deal with intelligence and our intelligence methods and also software packages to go with that, too, these are all opportunities to discuss with Guernsey colleagues. I do not think they are going to generate that much money, frankly, but there are ...
The Connétable of Grouville : That was my next question, yes.
Chief of Police, States of Jersey Police:
So I think our eyes can get wide at the prospect of that. I do not think they are necessarily going to be able to offset some of the challenges we have with the budget, but we should, nevertheless, explore those opportunities, as indeed the Minister has said she has started.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Do you foresee any challenges associated with our association with Guernsey, transport issues, et cetera?
Chief of Police, States of Jersey Police:
No. On the contrary, I think the relationship between particularly States of Jersey Police and Guernsey Police is very strong and they have helped us enormously, given the previous major incidents that we have had almost a year ago today. They continue to assist us where we have needed it and, indeed, we will assist them as well. So the relationship is a very strong one.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Excellent. Again, we are going to reference the questions about value for money savings related to the States of Jersey Police. In response to our written queries you have indicated that the police senior leadership team is reviewing the whole force budget with the aim of delivering sustainable savings in 2024. Please can you provide more information about the process being followed to identify these savings?
Chief of Police, States of Jersey Police:
Yes. The value for money savings produced by States of Jersey Police or given by States of Jersey Police since 2020 amount to £2.2 million since 2020. As the Minister and as the Chief Officer have also referenced, as part of the 2023 value for money savings, not unlike many other parts of government we use the non-pay inflation, which was around 4 per cent, which was around 110K, and that offset the value for money savings of 2023, which was 117K. This year, of course, the value for money proposal is 375K and it has already been referenced by the panel that is quite a significant increase. Ninety per cent of our budget, 90 per cent of the States of Jersey Police's budget next year of around £27 million, is people.
The Connétable of Grouville : Staff.
Chief of Police, States of Jersey Police:
Only 10 per cent is non-staff and 1 per cent is income. It is a tiny amount. I see no prospect of increasing that income and that is not ordinarily what we do. So the challenge is always going to be how you can achieve more with less people. Given what has happened in the last 12 months, that is quite a challenge for us. So I cannot say to you, Vice-Chair, that we have a firm plan but ordinarily it is looking at people, whether that is police officers and police staff. So we have started on that work and I will happily update the panel as we progress into the year, but ordinarily it is around things like vacancy factors. As people leave us and we get new people in, there is a lag and that provides us an opportunity for savings, but it is undoubtedly going to be a challenge for us.
The Connétable of Grouville :
I think that is reflected in the panel's concerns again about these value for money savings is we understand that there is 90 per cent of your costs are staffing and we are always concerned about front-line services. The one other question I would like to ask is: please can you provide more information about what is termed historical inflationary pressures?
Chief of Police, States of Jersey Police:
I think that is more to do with the non-staff budget, so where we have had increase in utility costs, and States of Jersey Police is no different to any of that. Certainly, our non-staff budget has been under pressure all of 2023 but so has everybody else's, largely as a result of inflation. So there is no additional money for that and there is no additional money for that, as far as I am aware, for 2024. So we need to keep a close eye on the non-inflationary budget, which of the £27 million that is roughly the budget is just £2.8 million.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Okay. Thank you very much. The target of £375,000 of value for money savings, similar to the question I have already asked, is approximately 1.4 per cent of the total States of Jersey Police net revenue expenditure. Again, we would like to know how is that latest ... the target figure agreed upon?
Chief of Police, States of Jersey Police:
I think it links into what Kate Briden has just said in terms of it is our proportion.
The Connétable of Grouville : It is pro rata.
Chief of Police, States of Jersey Police: Yes.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
There is no particular agreement when it comes to these matters. It is, as I have said before, almost a salami-slicing exercise. It is one as Minister that I find incredibly difficult to defend. I do not find it difficult to defend, but it is one that I am particularly vociferous about around the Council of Ministers table. Of course, the added extra that we have had from the States debate earlier this week around the provision of extra funding from agriculture potentially will also have an impact on our budget. As I think the point was well made in the Assembly, an amendment was not made to the Government Plan. There was a proposition that was put in to fund agriculture and fisheries to a certain level. Now, that money is going to have to come out of the Government Plan and as it stands, if we have another pro rata division across the ministries, it would be another around 154K for Justice and Home Affairs and another 113,000 for States of Jersey Police. The point I will make is that we are responsible for delivering front-line services. Over the last 11 months this Island has been well served by our emergency service and it highlights the need to fund them properly. So I am very concerned, firstly about value for money savings because I think it is fair to say that even finding the existing 2024 target is going to be very difficult across Justice and Home Affairs and across States of Jersey Police. The prospect of having the slice of salami that adds another 154 to J.H.A. and 113 to States of Jersey Police is very unpalatable. It is going to make things extremely difficult for this ministry.
The Connétable of Grouville :
It is a constant concern to us as well as a panel through C.Y.P.E.S. (Children, Young People, Education and Skills) and yourselves that front-line services to us are paramount and, yes, it is of great concern.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
You know we have gone into great detail over the years from the zero budgeting exercise. Great focus, forensic focus, is given to where the money is being spent, how we can make efficiencies, be that sharing with other Islands, et cetera.
[13:15]
But there comes a point when in order to provide an appropriate level of service to keep this community safe we need an appropriate number of officers across the emergency services and we also need that equality in non-staff budgets to provide them with the necessary equipment they need to do their job. So the outcome of Tuesday's debate is very concerning to me as Minister.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Thank you, Minister. We move on now to questions from Connétable Troy about the J.H.A. grants and subsidies.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
Minister, the Department for Justice and Home Affairs has a budget of £282,000 for grants and subsidies for 2024. This is lower than the £370,000 which was budgeted in 2023. Can you advise us why this has been reduced?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
I think I am right in saying that is something to do with the one-off payment to establish the Victims First that was given in 2022.
The Connétable of St. Clement : Okay.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: Yes, I would need to double check that.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
Those figures are slightly different to what I have here.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
Yes, they are. I will need to double check it and come back to you. The basis of our grant arrangements is the same, which is the Building a Safer Community fund. It is shown as B.a.S.S. (Building a Safer Society) here because we have changed it from "society" to "community", and also the cadet grants, but I will double check that.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
So there is no organisations which are no longer receiving grants as a consequence of a reduction? It was a one-off payment in that time?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs: Yes, we have not reduced our grants.
The Connétable of St. Clement : You have not reduced your ...?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs: We have not reduced our grants.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
That is fine. How does Justice and Home Affairs estimate the grant and subsidy figures for the Government Plan? Is that an equation ...?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
We base that on previous grants but, of course, constantly revising the outcomes that those grants are going to achieve and constantly being flexible and dynamic about who we support. The reintroduction of the Building a Safer Community framework will make that a lot easier. At the moment we have people that we have always funded and we will continue to do so, but being brought back under the umbrella of Building a Safer Community will bring that into sharper focus and ensure that those organisations are meeting the outcomes that we want to, not only from a J.H.A. perspective but from an Island perspective as well.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
Thank you. Are there any groups or charities that consistently receive an annual grant for providing services?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
We do not commission any services in the same way that you would expect Health and Children's Services commission. Ours are grants. We obviously have a grant assurance statement and we are very careful to make sure that those grants have been spent in the way that we expect them to be spent. But if you look at who they are going to, obviously you have air cadets. We have Victims First. We gave a grant in 2022 to strategic policy to assist with the substance use strategy, the air cadets, the combined cadets safety council. So those are all important organisations from a youth perspective that we fund and ones that we will continue to fund.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
Do they provide you with annual accounts like they do at parish hall level?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
Yes. Yes, of course. That is a given before the grant, and also a grant assurance statement, and also once the Building a Safer Community framework is back up and running they will be expected to show us how the grant has met the outcomes in order to continue receiving funding.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
Thank you. Question (c) is not appropriate. Moving on, the panel notes that the annual accounts for organisations that receive in excess of £75,000 of grant funding from the States of Jersey must be published as a report to the States Assembly but these have not been published since 2019. Do you have any organisations that have received grants in excess of £75,000?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
Yes, we do. What would have happened previously under the B.a.S.S. strategy is an annual report which would have included an assessment of the grants that were given was always presented as an R. to the States Assembly, but under the previous Administration the B.a.S.S. strategy was stopped completely. So, therefore, the R.s stopped being submitted to the States. The grants continued to be paid by J.H.A. but the R. was never submitted as part of the B.a.S.S. annual report. That will change, obviously, next year. The Building a Safer Community framework will be submitted as a report to the States Assembly and they will be ... and that is a 10-year framework, so for the next 10 years you would expect a report ... an annual report about the Building a Safer Community framework will be included and, therefore, very visible. We will very clearly be publishing the outcomes.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
Can you confirm whether J.H.A. receives any income from charging rent or property occupancy charges to any organisation that it provides a grant to?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
No. Yes, I confirm that we do not, sorry. [Laughter] Yes, I can confirm that we do not receive any rents.
The Connétable of Grouville : N-O.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
So no sea cadets or Brighter Futures or anything like that, Howard Davis Farm or anything like that?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: No.
The Connétable of St. Clement : No income?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
Well, no, we have income. The Justice and Home Affairs income is separate. What we do not give with one hand for a grant, we do not take away with rent.
The Connétable of St. Clement : Take it away with another, okay.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs: Yes.
The Connétable of Grouville : That was the thrust of our question.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
Yes. No, we do not give a grant and then expect a portion of it back in rent, no. That would be silly.
The Connétable of St. Clement : A waste of time.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs: Yes.
The Connétable of Grouville : Yes, quite correct.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
Okay. Thank you. Minister, to the extent that the findings of the 2022 bespoke peer challenge report has been a factor in the proposed additional funding for the Fire and Rescue Service pay, terms ... sorry, I am not ... to what extent have the findings of the 2022 peer challenge report been a factor in the proposed additional funding for the Fire and Rescue Service pay, terms and conditions review?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
To the best of my knowledge, what I would say is the ... are you referring to the uniform service review?
The Connétable of St. Clement : Yes.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
Yes. The uniform service review was commissioned before my time in office and although it shows within the accounts it technically has nothing to do with me as Minister. This is a States Employment Board matter. So the Fire Service at the moment are being balloted as to the outcomes of that. That is due at the end of November, but once again around the Council of Ministers table I did make it quite clear that this is a hangover, for want of a better word, of a decision that was made some years ago. There has been a full review of the Fire Service terms and conditions. I think the job descriptions have been evaluated for the first time in something like 30 years. There has been a regularisation of terms and conditions, arrangements surrounding pension and the like, so this is a piece of very important housekeeping that has been done. Of course, now we are at the point of putting a line in the Government Plan in order to make allowance for whatever the results of that review are and accepted.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
You can expect a few headaches then presumably if it has not been ...
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
It is a States Employment Board matter. Although it shows in the Home Affairs budget, it is not a matter for the Minister for Home Affairs. This is an employment issue.
The Connétable of Grouville :
This is basically the thrust of our questioning in this respect is ...
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs: It is an employment issue.
The Connétable of Grouville :
... to clarify the funding of £1.429 million is for remuneration costs and things like that. But clearly if you have a reassessment of the roles within your service, that would be more of an issue. Yes, we can understand that.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
Of course, the uniform services review was commissioned some time ago and it is not just the prison, it is moving forward to look at other areas.
The Connétable of Grouville :
This is why we were looking at this because we believed as a panel that this was more of an S.E.B. (States Employment Board) matter and not from your department and it was taking away funding from other things because you were having to do this. So that was the main thrust of our question. Minister, please can you provide more details about how the additional funding for the pay review will maintain and further develop the Fire and Rescue Service to be as it said in the annex: "Professional, resilient, multi-skilled and flexible"?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
I think what it will do is ... what we are hoping is it will make it easier to recruit and retain staff because they will have a set of modern terms and conditions. They will have a salary framework and a promotion framework, a career framework, that is fit for purpose and is modern. As I said, the last time the job descriptions were evaluated was some 30 years ago and life across the emergency services has changed considerably since then.
The Connétable of Grouville :
And some. The panel notes that the Fire and Rescue Service operations head of revenue expenditure growth includes provision for equipment, training and personal protection equipment. Please can you provide a breakdown of how the £145,000 funding proposed for 2024 would be used? Because we also note that over the next couple of years the plan seems to have quite a reduction in that provision.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
I think the reason that the Fire and Rescue Service have put that in for operational pressures is because simply equipment and training and personal protection equipment has increased. I think the Chief Fire Officer was saying helmets used to cost £250; they now cost £500. We need to make sure that our staff are properly equipped with what they need, so that is where that pressure has come in. So it will assist in the management of risk and help us comply with both professional requirements for effectiveness but also our legal requirement that we have as employers to protect firefighters when they are undertaking hazardous activities.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Is that possibly the reason why there is a reduction, you having to go through a major refit at the moment?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs: Yes.
The Connétable of Grouville : That was the thrust of the question.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs: Yes.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Thank you very much. We are moving now on to the Ambulance Service revenue expenditure growth, to be asked by Connétable Troy .
The Connétable of St. Clement :
Minister, with reference to the information available in the annex about the additional funding for the Ambulance Service, please can you provide more information about the transfer of Ambulance Service posts to a higher clinical level?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
That is about the introduction of specialist paramedics, which is now going to be phased in during 2024. What we need to do is stabilise the front-line resource first and ensure that we have the right number of paramedics and that the changes that we have made make sure that the layers below the paramedics are right as per the demand and capacity review. So that is the stage we are at at the moment. That is where the recruitment is. We have just consulted with staff on those slight changes to the way that they will carry out their front-line roles, and then we will move to recruit specialist paramedics. They will be able to offer that different level of clinical skill on the road.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
So as I am new to the panel, the difference between a paramedic and a specialist paramedic is what clinically?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
It can be a number of different things. So in the U.K. (United Kingdom), for example, we would see specialist paramedics in the hazardous response teams or the helicopter teams, clearly not the case here. What we mean here is that within that scope of practice for the specialist paramedic they would be able to operate more frequently on their own as a single responder and that they ...
The Connétable of St. Clement : Without any outside agencies ...?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
Yes, exactly, or that they would be able to treat more at home and refer more to other care pathways instead of transporting to hospital. So it is about providing an increased amount of out of hospital care. That obviously needs to dovetail with an overall care model for the Island and obviously there is lots of work going on in relation to that. Ambulance work very, very closely with H.C.S. (Health and Community Services) to ensure that we are moving in step with the health strategy for the Island.
The Connétable of Grouville :
That would, I assume, include the single vehicle that goes out ahead of an ambulance to respond?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs: Yes.
The Connétable of Grouville :
I will say that I have benefited from that service. They thought I was having a heart attack but I had cracked a rib, so I am very grateful for that service. So, thank you very much. Okay, sorry, Connétable .
The Connétable of St. Clement :
That is all right. How will this change the structure of the service, i.e. how many posts will be transferred to a higher clinical level if relevant, and can you provide an updated structure chart to the panel?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
We absolutely can provide an updated structure chart. I do not have it in front of me. We do have a range of information but not a structure chart, but easily produced for you afterwards. I think the important point is that the specialist paramedic posts are new and extra posts rather than a transfer. So the number of paramedics on the ground will go from 18 to 20 as a result of the investment in the last Government Plan and then there is further investment in other areas proposed for 2024, which is what we are talking about here, of course. That will be supplemented by 4 specialist paramedics as well.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
So that will take us from a complement of 64.6 posts in 2022 to 85 posts in 2024 as a result of the investment that has been put in to improve the Ambulance Service.
The Connétable of Grouville :
I am worried about the .6 now, but anyway.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs: That is hours.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: Part-time arrangements, yes.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
But what is good about that is it allows us that flexibility for people who would like to do some flexible working or perhaps reduce their hours slightly. Again, it is good staff practice. It is a modern practice. You do not expect everybody to slavishly work their shifts these days.
[13:30]
The Connétable of St. Clement :
How many transport patient posts will be created to free up the emergency ambulance service?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
We are restructuring in a slightly different way to ensure that there is a patient transfer service as what you would see around your parishes at the moment, which is ...
The Connétable of St. Clement : The big vans.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
Yes, essentially, especially kitted-out vans, but we are creating a patient transfer stretcher service. So at the moment we have what we call intermediary crew and they are trained to a level of response but they also do the stretcher transfer. The change that we have just consulted on is moving away from the intermediary role and having what we are going to call ambulance care assistants and
emergency care assistants instead. Then the P.T.S. (patient transfer service) stretcher transfer crew will do exactly what it says and enable the levels of front-line responders to concentrate on emergency response while the P.T.S. stretcher crew are moving people around that need that service. So it is aimed at matching the demand with the capacity.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
How will the deliverables of this project be tracked and monitored to ensure alignment with the outcomes of the demand and capacity review?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
So we have one of the associate chief ambulance officers working on that as a specific responsibility. It has a very good tracking system of an overall action plan for the Ambulance Service and how it will implement this change. It is a very significant change for the service. It needs some support around culture change as well as the implementation of the recruitment and then retention of the people and all of that is tracked by ... well, under the leadership of that associate chief ambulance officer to ensure that we are delivering the benefits. We also have an arrangement with the Association of Chief Ambulance Officers, through whom we did the demand and capacity review, to come back and assist us to review it in a year or so's time so we get that external validation as well.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
Very good. Thank you. Please could you provide a breakdown of the funding between staff and recruitment costs, training costs and vehicle costs of the service?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
We will have to write to you with that because it is not in front of me or buried so ...
The Connétable of St. Clement : We do not have that anywhere so ...
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: We will make sure you have that, yes.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
... we are just curious. Thank you very much.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: So staff, transport and equipment?
The Connétable of St. Clement :
We might assume it is similar to police; it is highly weighted on wages.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: The proportion will be the same.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs: Very similar, yes.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: It will be 88, 90 per cent staff ...
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs: Staff and 10 per cent equipment.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: ... and the remainder equipment.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
Thank you. Minister, thank you for providing some more information in your letter of 31st October about the proposed expenditure on maintenance on the ambulance station H.Q. (headquarters). What analysis has been done to review the spend of approximately £1.4 million on a building that has a remaining lifespan of approximately 5 to 7 years?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
I think that is really a question for the Minister for Infrastructure because it is clearly our colleagues that have come in to make that sort of assessment on what needs to be done to make the building safe. It is an Infrastructure and Environment business case.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
Are you concerned about the safety of the building?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
I am not necessarily concerned about the safety of the building based on the fact that there has been an assessment of the quality of ... well, quality is probably not the right word, but there has not been an assessment of the safety of the building and the fact that we do have this business case in place and funding will be found for the maintenance. It goes without saying that it is incredibly frustrating that I have an emergency service that needs to operate in a building like that, not fit for purpose, £1.6 million required to just make it safe. This is not a pleasant environment either.
The Connétable of St. Clement : That is the point we are trying to make.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
Not a pleasant environment at all, and although we have engaged with staff and we try to make things better, it is very difficult, given the infrastructure of the current building.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
So really we should address the remaining questions ... we have a question, for example: what are the maintenance or health and safety priorities to address first in 2024? So that really ... you want us to approach the Infrastructure ...?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
Yes. It is an Infrastructure business case, yes, which obviously relates to the ...
The Connétable of St. Clement :
Yes, but do you think, therefore, that given ... do you anticipate that the costs set out in the Government Plan could increase beyond what is stated in this Government Plan, beyond £1.4 million?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
I am not qualified to answer that question, I am really not.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
So again Infrastructure, yes. Thank you, Minister.
The Connétable of Grouville :
We are going to move on now to some questions about the data management and analyst with regards to the revenue expenditure growth. They will be asked by Connétable Troy .
The Connétable of St. Clement :
Minister, with reference to the new funding requested for the data management and analyst for £110,000 in 2024, can you please provide more information about the dedicated analytical resource to be funded in this Government Plan?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
Justice and Home Affairs are one of the very few Government Departments that do not have a dedicated analytical resource, and given that we are delivering a front-line service that we need to be on top of constantly in terms of the demand and capacity it is important that we have a resource allocated to that. The front-line services gather massive swathes of data that is required to understand how we can keep our population safe and secure, so that is why. This is not the first time that this business case has been put in but it is always seen as a little bit of low-hanging fruit, I suppose, and the one that I kind of always drop off. I always say if you are going on a journey do not throw away your map and your compass; this is the map and this is the compass. Data is essential. Good analysis of that data is essential. We will be using it for management information, risk management, delivery of our key performance indicators, to drive evidence-based, data-driven decision-making. That is why it is crucial. We also need it to provide a framework to help us with the Building a Safer Community framework and particularly ... I do not know if you were at the launch yesterday but we launched the violence against women and girls strategy. A key recommendation in there is that we need some better data. If you look at the Home Office website you can tell at a second how the criminal justice system is performing. We do not know how our criminal justice system is performing. We know how the police are performing, we know how the Probation Service is performing, but we do not have any way to join those dots and look at it systemically. Again, very important to support the ongoing review and development of any of the criminal justice policy and legislation that we have. So I am really pleased to see that this is in the Government Plan and that appropriate resource is given. To my mind, it is not enough, you could double it and it still would not be enough, but it is a very good start.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
What proportion of this funding is allocated to recruitment? Is this a single post or is this a new post?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs: I think it is one point ... is it 1.6?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
It will be a permanent data manager and then an analyst for a fixed term of 6 months.
The Connétable of St. Clement : To set the system up?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
Because that is what is affordable within the money allocated.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
If we had more money ... I fully anticipate that we will need more of this resource, but again until we get the data manager in there, we know that we have data resource dotted around the criminal justice system so maybe by joining the dots and bringing some of the systems together we can reduce that. Back in 2018 we did have a very, very comprehensive plan for doing that so that plan will now come off the shelf and be put into action.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
How will the data management and analyst operate in relation to the existing data and analytical services provided by the States of Jersey Police?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
They will operate in partnership, in collaboration, in close collaboration. Evidently, the data systems in the States of Jersey Police are already robust. They are already very good and it is about not reinventing the wheel, it is about joining the dots really and connecting what we know.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
Okay. Last question on this: can you advise us why the funding for this project, because it is so vital to you, reduces year on year from 2023 to 2027?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
That is because the analyst post falls away, yes, for now.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Just a supplemental, Minister: I know this panel has asked for more data so we are very aware of the need for this, so I think that is very important.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
We take an outcomes-based accountability approach to everything and part of outcomes-based accountability is a data development agenda, and this is absolutely critical to that. If you think about the Building a Safer Community framework, under that you will have the child sexual abuse and exploitation strategy, the domestic abuse strategy; you will have your V.A.W.G. (Violence Against Women and Girls) lens sitting right on top of that. This post is absolutely crucial to help develop that data development agenda so we have a map and we have a compass, basically.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Thank you, Minister. The next question is defence funding, revenue expenditure growth, again to be asked by Connétable Troy .
The Connétable of St. Clement :
Minister, with reference to the additional £108,000 of expenditure requested for defence funding, the additional information in the annex on page 43 outlines that the request for this funding is due to unforeseen increases in costs and inflationary pressures. Please could you outline what these costs are in relation to?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
As you say, it is inflationary pressures and it is also an increase in pension contributions for the military members of staff that are based here and that we pay for, so they are necessary pressures. This is a secondary increase following a substantive increase in either the 2022 or the 2023 Government Plan - I would have to double check; 2022 I think - where it was recognised that the amount in the J.H.A. base budget for the operation of the Jersey Field Squadron, which is what we are talking about, was not enough. At the time it was about £1 million. It was raised through that Government Plan to about £1.5 million and this is reflecting the likely projection that it will continue to increase. The current Officer Commanding of the field squadron is very good, very cost conscious, and has made a number of changes to the way that their operation works in order to keep costs as low as possible, but the reality is that we will still see them increase and that is what this provision is for.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
Okay. What mitigations, if any, are in place to deal with any future cost increases?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
So, as I have said, some of that is already being dealt with by the O.C. (Officer Commanding) and that includes reducing their housing costs, slightly reducing the complement of staff that are here, changing the way that they do their training so it is more cost effective. So I am content that he, working with our business support team, is being as cost conscious as possible, but just like every other area we will continue to see inflationary increases in what they do despite that good management.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
Thank you. How do we measure Jersey's contributions to the U.K. defence budget in relation to the defence support the Island receives from the U.K.?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
We do not have a specific methodology for measuring it. The key principle of having the field squadron here, of course, is that it captures the militia, which has been running for an extraordinarily long time. It makes a contribution through the recruitment of reserves to the armed forces deployment. Our officers are deployed. It also provides local capacity, of course, to do things such as the deployment for building the COVID vaccination centre and other operations around the Island. They are also our military liaison with the U.K. So the Officer Commanding was stood up last week to be the military liaison with the U.K. in case we needed help with the storm.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
I think we also need to remember the contribution that was given to us during the Haut du Mont incident and other major incidents, and not only use of facilities and buildings and infrastructure but expertise. So I think it is something that is a little bit unsung but when you need their support ... and I think this is what was very much proven over the Haut du Mont. When we needed support and we needed it quickly it was there. It was given unconditionally. We had helicopters arriving within 3 or 4 hours carrying necessary equipment. Again, COVID also is a very good example of using resources that we have on-Island. So I think it is absolutely critical that we maintain and, indeed, develop our relationship with the U.K. military services.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
To that extent, Minister - this is not part of our question plan - given that we are surrounded by the sea and we could always have a maritime disaster, do you think it might be relevant to have a marine attachment?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
Yes, I absolutely do. For the last 25 years we have had a squadron of Royal Engineers and I think it is definitely worthy of consideration, particularly given the size of our sea cadets cohort. Given the fact that we have some, albeit retired, very senior Navy people on Island, I think the time is right for a discussion ...
The Connétable of St. Clement : And Marines.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
... a discussion to see how we might progress that.
[13:45]
The Connétable of St. Clement : Yes, thank you.
The Connétable of Grouville :
You can see why I could not answer that question ... ask that question. Thank you, Minister, very much and it is something close to my heart, certainly. We are going to move on now to the Digital Forensics Unit, so these questions I will be asking myself. Minister, in your response dated 31st October, which I have here, it was advised that the main focus of the 2024 Digital Forensics Unit would be governance and quality management, and that the 2024 funding will assist with compliance with the new Forensic Science Regulatory Code. Please can you provide more information about how the funding allocated in this plan will support this work?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
Because this falls within the States of Jersey Police, I am going to ask the Chief Officer to answer that.
Chief of Police, States of Jersey Police:
Thank you, Vice-Chair. First of all, digital forensics is ... many of those watching and, indeed, people in this room may not know exactly what that is. It is how we investigate these things and these things. To give you a sense of context, we have seen an increase in all things digital forensics, and I invite you to go back to your homes later on today and look in your drawers and your cupboards and see how many digital pieces of equipment you have, from an iPod to an iPad to a sat nav. It has gone up by 140 per cent since 2013. In 2022 alone, we dealt with 100 terabytes of data. Now, I do not know a terabyte from a gigabyte from a dog bite, but to put that into context, that is 6.5 billion pages, which - and again, the D.F.U. (Digital Forensics Unit) will be able to tell you this - would require 130,000 filing cabinets. You get the sense of the ... and that is in 2022 alone. So this is a massively expanding business. Very few investigations do not necessarily start with one of these and finish with one of these, and certainly we saw quite a massive increase as a result of the marine collision and, indeed, as referenced by the Minister, at Haut du Mont. So the original bid was quite significantly more than that, as you will know. I am, I have to say, enormously grateful for the £237,000, which we have got recurring in 2025, 2026, 2027. I am confident to say that is never going to be enough. This is a growth business, and I have every expectation that in the start of the preparation for the new Government Plan and when we start talking about business cases for 2024, we will have other discussions about what else we think we need. To answer your question specifically, there are a number of ... well, it is criminal law procedure. We have to be sure that we are, for want of a better phrase, "legal and decent" when we are dealing with these matters. So it requires expertise. So we will put that into 2 members of staff, one of which will be the manager of the Digital Forensics Unit. We do not have a manager for the divisional forensic unit; we need one. We do have someone that comes and visits us from the south-west, and he has been providing us ... we did a review some time ago which was the basis, or the genesis, to the request for more resource. My expectation into 2024, 2025, et cetera, is that we will be looking for more, for want of a better phrase, analysts to do the work, but at the moment we need to make sure that our structures and our management is right. That is where this 237, in the first instance, will be directed towards.
The Connétable of Grouville :
I think primarily the thrust to our question was I think we have a fairly good understanding of what is involved and we were thinking have you got enough resource for this?
Chief of Police, States of Jersey Police:
Do you know, it would be ... if you ask me the question what is enough resource, I am not sure if I can give you the answer to that question because I cannot predict what future demand is, other than to say historically the demand will go up. What I think we can also be increasingly confident about is the technology also improves. It is costly. The software packages are costly, but it should become ... it can become less labour intensive. So software packages that can examine 50,000 pictures, some of which may be indecent, you can have software that can examine. You do not need a person, necessarily, to do that. So we will look to invest more in how we can use technology. Everybody now in every meeting I am ever going to is mentioning this thing called A.I. (artificial intelligence). Undoubtedly, that will assist. So it is not just necessarily going to be about people, the cost will be in software and tech to help us deliver what we need to deliver.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Yes. A.I., Chief Officer, in my generation was something completely different, trust me. Please can you provide a breakdown of the funding allocation in this regard?
Chief of Police, States of Jersey Police:
Yes. Forgive me because I have just moved off my page. The funding allocation for 2024 is 237. In 2025 it goes to 327, and then back down to 304, and then finally 283. So over those 4 years: 1.1 million.
The Connétable of Grouville : Is that primarily staffing?
Chief of Police, States of Jersey Police:
It will not just be for staffing, particularly if we need new software products. But, ordinarily, it is about setting up the right structure within there, following the review that we had. What we can expect, as indeed we already do, we can expect greater and greater legal scrutiny on how we gather that information, so we want to be making sure that we are right. But it is without doubt we have advances in technology, but we will require different software licences and equipment, and this is always going to move quickly and it is inevitably going to be expensive.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Do you foresee any recruitment issues? This is a very high-demand area.
Chief of Police, States of Jersey Police:
Yes. I can give an example of that. So during and following the explosion at Haut du Mont, as part of our mutual aid request to the U.K. we sought analysts and people who can work not just as analysts but also with regards to digital forensics. We received nobody from that, and there was a good reason for that, is because they are so highly required. They have particular skills. So what we want to do in States of Jersey Police is bring on our own staff, bring them on and up, which is the really sensible thing to do, and that is what I am determined we will do.
The Connétable of Grouville : Thank you very much.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
Have you highlighted individuals that you can ...?
Chief of Police, States of Jersey Police:
We already have people acting up and moving into position. The most senior person in there is away for a matter for a couple of months, and someone is already acting up as of Monday, I think it is. So as with all the case, whether it is this specialism or any other, and I know other departments do this, too, is the best way to recruit ... well, not to recruit, but is to succession plan from within.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Thank you very much, Chief Officer. Our next band of questions relates to T.E.T.R.A. (Terrestrial Trunked Radio) funding for this year. Both myself and my own Honorary Police team, and I believe Connétable Troy 's team, like their T.E.T.R.A. system, like the way that it works and its almost guarantee of success in communicating. We were anxious that the funding seems to have been withdrawn. The panel notes your response during questions without notice on 17th October that the work in relation to terrestrial trunked radio, T.E.T.R.A., rolled up into the civil contingencies work. Please can you advise why provision for the civil contingencies work is not in the Government Plan?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs: I think it is.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
The development of the new law is in the policy pipeline to come into the legislative programme, but there is not currently any specific funding for either the development of the law, which can be done in-house, or the implementation of it. We do expect that the critical communications programme, which is what we are calling the replacement of T.E.T.R.A., will be linked with the development of the new law and the new resilience approach, but that also needs to come back into a future Government Plan for funding the actual replacement of the T.E.T.R.A. system in due course.
The Connétable of Grouville : Sure. Obviously ...
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
So the ongoing provision of T.E.T.R.A. is factored into the Government Plan. That is where the 250,000 is on the equipment.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Okay, because obviously our officers have told us they are big fans of the system, and they are anxious about digital replacements because they believe a standalone system works better. But we will have that debate when the time comes. Just a little bit of a follow-up on that: can you advise whether the funding allocated to T.E.T.R.A., which now forms part of the civil contingencies work, is likely to remain the same as that referenced in the Government Plan of last year, 2023-2026?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
Yes, so the substantive funding for the T.E.T.R.A. system is embedded at the moment in the Justice and Home Affairs base budget, but it is about to transfer to Modernisation and Digital as a tech system but looked after by specialists who care about it working just as much as we do. This money is for the replacement of equipment, literally the handsets, because T.E.T.R.A. will now need to last for longer than we had originally envisaged. So we were originally due to be replacing it no later than 2025, and we had started the work on the critical communications replacement programme, but it is linked to the need to ensure that we have removed high-risk vendors from telephone networks in Jersey, which we are working on ... well, the telecom companies are working on. It is also linked to the effectiveness and efficiency of the emergency services network in the U.K., which is their replace ... they call it Airwave, but it is the same as T.E.T.R.A., their replacement of that same technology there. So we had made a decision about 18 months ago to extend T.E.T.R.A. for longer, potentially up to 2030, to let all those things ride out and for us to design the right thing for our Island, in conjunction with Guernsey as well, though, because it is the same system for them. There are a number of points on the north coast where we are using their T.E.T.R.A. system, just because of proximity, geographic proximity. So we will work with Guernsey on that as well.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Up to 2030, I am sure our honorary officers will be very thrilled to hear that because they are big fans of the standalone system.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: Yes.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Is the recharge to this system solely from the parishes? Was there anybody else that is utilising this system?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
There is. So Ports of Jersey, we have a cross-charging arrangement with them because they charge us for having some of our equipment on their posts, like the airport tower, for example. So there is a little bit of cross-charging, but they do pay for their equipment and the service user charge. So do Jersey Electricity and Jersey Water.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Oh, really. It is just that that system during the storm of last week was working perfectly and really was an asset to us and I am sure it would be to the services. Thank you. The next band of questioning relates to capital projects, and I will be asking the first tranche. This question relates to Dewberry House. Minister, please can you outline why funding for the total known cost of the Dewberry House project has not been sought through the current Government Plan process?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
The issue is we do not know exactly how much it is going to cost because we are at the planning application stage. So I think what assurance I can give is that it will be funded. Some of this was coming out of the Criminal Offences Compensation Fund, but we have not put in the full amount because we do not know the full amount until the planning application has been passed and then we have been able to put it out to tender.
The Connétable of Grouville :
That is primarily why the next question related to it is the negotiations at Treasury and Exchequer proceeding, but if you are not sure about the amount that you wish for, then that is presumably the answer.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
We are expecting planning permission fairly soon, I think, are we not?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: Yes, hopefully, yes.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Do you perceive any funding shortfalls? Do you think there may be a pushback on this?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
I think there will be ... the funding required will have increased because building costs have increased from when we initially put in the initial sum. But obviously Dewberry House is my absolute priority in terms of providing services to victims and witnesses, obviously through the Violence Against Women and Girls Taskforce report as well, so I am confident that the money will be available to do what needs to be done.
The Connétable of Grouville :
One would assume, therefore, that you will be seeking funds outside of the Criminal Offences Compensation Fund for that shortfall?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
Not necessarily. The first place that I would like it to come from is the C.O.C.F. (Criminal Offences Compensation Fund) because that was what was conceived at the beginning. But otherwise, no, we would look for alternative sources of funding.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Thank you. With reference to replacement assets for the Fire and Rescue Service, please can you provide more information about the mobile data system and C.F.R.M.I.S. (Community Fire Risk Management Information System), each allocated 100K of funding under the budget for 2024?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
So that is under the Justice and Home Affairs minor capital allocations, so they are given as examples of things that we would spend that allocation on. The mobile data project is extremely important for Fire and Rescue and also for Ambulance.
[14:00]
It has some similarities, but some differences, with the smart policing initiative that was introduced a number of years ago for S.O.J.P. (States of Jersey Police). What it will primarily do is substantively modernise the way that the control room communicates with Fire and Rescue and Ambulance at its H.Q., but also, of course, mobile on the road. So it would provide sort of ruggedised mobile devices for vehicles - Fire and Rescue in the front of the cab and Ambulance probably in the front and also in the back - and will complement for Ambulance the electronic records ... the electronic patient records form system that is just about to go live and give on-the-ground information that is much more improved between the control room and the services. For Fire and Rescue, in particular, it will give access to professional references such as hazardous material reference guides and things like that, and will also be able to be localised for ... so at the moment in our vehicles, for example, the crews have arch-lever files of maps of the estates and things like that, and also quite manual processes for where water hydrants are. So all of that will be able to be mobile, digitalised. The amount that is in that allocation actually is not enough, but we have some money in the emergency services control centre project that we will be using to pair them up and deliver, hopefully, those sorts of tools by about the middle of next year, hopefully.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Basically, I was just going to ask if you perceive that to be a shortfall in funding for this project.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: So, yes, but we have got an answer.
The Connétable of Grouville : Okay, good.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
Sorry, Chair, could you just remind me what the second part of the ... there was a second line for Fire and Rescue.
The Connétable of St. Clement :
The second part about the mobile data system and the C.F.R.M.I.S. system.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
So I cannot remember what C.F.R.M.I.S. stands for.
The Connétable of Grouville :
I have no idea what it stands for.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: But it is a Fire and Rescue ...
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs: Management information system.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: It is management information.
The Connétable of Grouville : Yes, what you have just described.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
Yes, exactly. So that will be more for the H.Q. function to monitor its performance and to make sure that we have training records up to date and things like that. But if you need more on that I can follow up.
Chief of Police, States of Jersey Police:
That is what it stands for, I think: control fire and rescue management information system.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: Yes, that sounds good.
The Connétable of Grouville :
We are not completely surrounded by acronyms, though.
Chief of Police, States of Jersey Police: It is a stab in the dark.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Yes, I understand completely the relevance of this because, especially with an ambulance crew, going into an estate like Miladi Farm, the numbering is completely awry, so I completely understand your issues there. That is why we want to make sure this system is in place.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: Exactly.
The Connétable of Grouville :
In your letter dated 31st October, the panel was informed that Jersey Property Holdings have conducted a review of all work undertaken so far in relation to the Ambulance and Fire and Rescue headquarters. Please can you provide an overview of the review and how it has informed this Government Plan?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
So we recognised that we had a brief from the 3 Ministers involved - so obviously the Ministers for Justice and Home Affairs, Children and Education, and also Infrastructure - that each Minister had said, 2 of them directly to you, how desperately keen they are to resolve this problem. So the 3 departments worked together to commission a review from a former member of government staff at Rowney Sharman Associates to review everything we had done so far and to help us set off in a direction that will, in fact, meet the Ministers' and our strong desire and commitment to resolve this issue. So the result of that is a review of everything we have all considered before and a new direction of travel that we will be as practical and pragmatic as we can in delivering a solution that meets the needs of the Ambulance Service, the Fire and Rescue Service and also Rouge Bouillon School and the school strategy. So we now have the joint project board between the 3 departments, which sounds very obvious but is new, and has met once and we will meet again next week and is aiming to make recommendations to Ministers either just at the end or very early next year, so that we can keep the momentum of this up and bring it back to Ministers ... we have taken their steer already, of course, but bring it back for a set of decisions that will enable us to move forward. That will also mean that the money that shows in the Government Plan at the moment would need recalibrating. We are sitting on 24 million for ... well, we are not sitting on it, it is allocated for the new combined Ambulance and Fire and Rescue station, but that routes back to an amount on a design that was originally done in 2019, so it will self-evidently not be the right amount of money. The same for a notional amount for the school, Rouge Bouillon School, as well.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Because obviously this panel also, yes, we have ...
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: You have both, exactly, yes.
The Connétable of Grouville :
We have both, so we are obviously very concerned about this project, its momentum, and how it proceeds. That goes on to my next question. The feasibility work for the Ambulance and Fire and Rescue headquarters, has that now been completed?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
Yes, so we have had a number of different phases of feasibility work. Some of it has been looking at alternative sites and some of it has been looking at what we would do if we stayed in the same area or on the same sites. So I am confident we have a really rich basis of information about Ambulance and Fire and Rescue and, obviously, with a primary steer from the Ministers we should be able to find a sensible and pragmatic way through. I would think that one of the ways ... one of the key things on that route would be a joint briefing from the 2 Ministers with their officers to you in due course on what the plan is. So, again, I would invite you to invite us to do that at some point because I think that could be very beneficial for us all.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Excellent. Yes, I totally agree because, again, it concerns us from both angles.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: Absolutely, yes, and we want to get it right.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Thank you. Following the establishment of the joint Justice and Home Affairs, Jersey Property Holdings and Children, Young People, Education and Skills project group, please can you provide details about the membership of that group, including any Ministers and government officers?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
Yes, sure. It is an officer group, so it is me for Justice and Home Affairs, along with our Head of Change Delivery. It is the Chief Officer for C.Y.P.E.S. along with the Director for Education and their Head of Office as support. It is the Director of Jersey Property Holdings and the Head of Property, I think he is, Head of Strategic Property I think is his title, and also co-opted on is ... oh, I am sorry, a Capital Project Manager from J.P.H. (Jersey Property Holdings). Co-opted on is the lead architect from IBI, who has done a number of schools projects, did the town schools review and has also been on board as part of the Ambulance and Fire and Rescue project team for 4 years, on working through all these feasibility options with us. So he is very well versed in our needs, extremely patient as we have asked for so many different cuts of the information and different designs. I appreciate I have rattled those off, but we can obviously write to you and give you the exact titles, but that hopefully gives you a feel for the collaboration and the nature of the joint working on it.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Just to emphasise the fact that we are concerned about this whole project is ... how often do they meet? Sorry to be a nag, but we are very conscious of this.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
The timetable is monthly. So we have had an October one, we are about to have November, and so on until March. That is because we want it to be a 6-month piece of work, to go quite a long way in that time, and then there is sub-project meetings in between. So we had one last week with the architect talking through, well, okay, here are some conceptual ideas for solutions. The other thing I should say, of course, that is very important is that effectively the 3 Ministers are the steering group, the ministerial steering group, for that and we will all keep our own Ministers up to date and then meet with them together after the meeting next week to give them an update on where we are ... how far we have got, basically.
The Connétable of Grouville :
The group, I assume, has a term of reference?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: It does, yes.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Excellent. Thank you. The panel notes that recommendations and a business case is due to be presented to the Ministers at the end of quarter one, 2024. Please can you advise why details about the Ambulance and Fire and Rescue headquarters have been postponed until 2027?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
So the ... as in the money now shows in 2027, it is to give us time and space to make this decision, essentially. It is clear that we ... the profile of the money originally would have had us already building at this point, and so it has been deferred with our agreement and with the Minister's oversight because we need to do the process I have just described and then realistically programme the funding for whatever the solution is.
The Connétable of Grouville :
This panel does share your frustration and I would like to state that publicly. We wish you well and we hope it is before 2027, as a panel.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: Me too, thank you.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Minister, the panel noted from your response that the total expenditure on the new headquarters project has been 212K to date. Do you anticipate that further expenditure related to feasibility work, architectural design work, estimations on ground works, et cetera, may be required?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
On the Ambulance and Fire Service?
The Connétable of Grouville : Mm hmm.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs: You think more might be required?
The Connétable of Grouville : Mm hmm.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
I think there is always the potential for that, but there is money in the budget for that.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
Yes, I think a small amount will be in terms of the anticipated progression over the next few months that I have just described. We need the architect on board, for example, so that is professional fees. But I do not expect it will be a substantial amount because I think we are nearly there with the information we need. We then need to put it together into recommendations for Ministers to make decisions.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Because you are a working group that actually encompasses more than one ministry?
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: Yes, exactly.
The Connétable of Grouville :
That negates my next question, so thank you very much. But I am sure you now understand that we are very concerned.
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs: Agreed, yes, thank you.
The Connétable of Grouville :
The final question you will be thrilled to hear: please can you provide more information about the causes of the uncertainty in relation to the preferred location for the army and sea cadet headquarters?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
I could hand that over, but I think the delay has been caused by Ports of Jersey. Well, no, it has not been caused by Ports of Jersey, but Ports of Jersey are currently undertaking a full site survey at the relevant site conducted by a specialist engineering supplier. We are expecting that to be competed mid-November, so that will provide all the interested parties with information about that location's viability for anything to be built, including the planned facility and any other function. So that is what we are waiting for, that review by Ports of Jersey.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Can you advise on the expenditure for the initial design and costing works?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs: I do not have that information to hand but ...
Chief Officer, Justice and Home Affairs:
No, I do not either. We would need to check. There is funding in the Government Plan from either last year or the year before allocation. So there is a small amount on professional fees. The initial architecture work for the feasibility has been done in-house, and so any cost is only for surveying and cost estimates. The work that the Minister has just described has been done at Ports of Jersey's expense, not ours. So it is a small amount on fees.
The Connétable of Grouville :
Excellent. The final question had a part B, which you have already answered. So thank you very much, Minister, Chief of Police and Chief Officer for your attendance this afternoon. Thank you for addressing our questions. I do not believe ... I may be wrong, but I do not believe that there are many things we need supplementary to our oral questions, so we are very grateful for your attendance and for your support throughout this process. I would like to thank our officers as well, and Sally in the corner, and everyone who has come along this afternoon to help us with this hearing. Thank you very much.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs: Thank you.
[14:13]