Transcript - Draft Unlawful Public Entertainments (Jersey) Regulations 202- MSED - 04 July 2024

Economic and International Affairs Scrutiny Panel Draft Unlawful Public Entertainments (Jersey) Regulations 202-

Witness: The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development

Thursday, 4th July 2024

Panel:

Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade (Chair) Deputy K.M. Wilson of St. Clement Deputy M.B. Andrews of St. Helier North

Witnesses:

Deputy K.F. Morel of St. John , St. Lawrence and Trinity - The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development

Mr. D. Houseago - Group Director - Economy, Department for the Economy

Mr. C. Kelleher - Strategic Policy Manager, Department for the Economy

Ms. O Chaplin - Sector Lead, Retail & Visitor Economy, Department for the Economy

[12:07]

Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade (Chair):

Minister, thank you for coming and thank you to your officers for attending as well. In a moment I will just introduce the panel, but it is just to say that this is the International and Economic Affairs Scrutiny Panel, not necessarily in that order, and we are doing a review, of course, into Unlawful Public Entertainments, the regulations that have already been passed in the First Reading. We have called it in, so you are obviously aware of that, just for the public record. I am Deputy Montfort Tadier . I am the Chair of the panel.

Deputy K.M. Wilson of St. Clement : Deputy Karen Wilson , member of the panel.

Deputy M.B. Andrews of St. Helier North : Deputy Max Andrews , a member of the panel.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

I am Deputy Kirsten Morel , Minister for Sustainable Economic Development.

Strategic Policy Manager:

I am Chris Kelleher. I am ... forgotten who I am. Policy Officer for Culture, Arts and Heritage and Events for the Department of Economy.

Sector Lead, Retail & Visitor Economy:

Olivia Chaplin, the Sector Lead for Visitor Economy and Retail in the Department for the Economy.

Group Director - Economy:

Dan Houseago, Group Director for the Economy.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Thank you. I am going to pass over to Deputy Andrews to ask the first questions.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you for being in attendance, Minister.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: No problem.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

I would like to firstly start off this public hearing by asking you a question in relation to why you believe that the regulations ought to be changed moving forward in the future.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

Yes. The triennial regulations, as they are commonly referred to, there have been calls from many different quarters about the need to change them. One of them is ... so one of the reasons to change them is the slight absurdity of having a set of regulations which are in constant use but which every 3 years need to be reclarified, I guess, or revoted on by the States. So there is just that kind of administrative level. But also there is a desire within the events industry and the hospitality industry to move on to a different footing for the events licensing regime. So it is calls from the public as well as calls from within the political sphere, I would say, from people around this table, that the events licensing regime needs to be changed.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

Do you believe there are other aspects of Jersey's legislation as well that probably ought to be modernised in line with what we are speaking about today as well?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

I am sure there are many, many areas of the entire legislative book that need to be changed, but in my particular area matters which come to mind are the Liquor Licensing Law. That is definitely somewhere that we are already working on. We are already working on the Heritage Law as well, which is an area which needs to be updated and brought into modern focus.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

Yes. Okay. Thank you very much, Minister.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Is there a philosophical problem with where the legislation currently sits?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

There is definitely for some people. It is something that personally I am more relaxed about, but I also do understand that at the moment the events licensing regime sits with the Bailiff and the judiciary. In itself that is unusual in a modern society and I really do understand that. So yes, definitely in some quarters there is a philosophical desire or there is a desire to see it changed on philosophical grounds.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Yes. You do not have a problem with it yourself?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

From the pragmatic perspective it is a system which does work. From that perspective, that is why I am relaxed. It is a system that seems to work. We have not had events in Jersey that I can remember which have been out of control or we do not have a history in modern times of events taking place which do not have permission. I was thinking about why did these regulations come in in the first place. It was 1992, and while I do not know hand on heart that this is the reason, that

coincides with that time at the end of the 1980s when raves were becoming a phenomenon in the U.K. (United Kingdom) certainly. While I was about 15 around that time, 14 or 15, if I remember rightly there were a few event raves taking place in Jersey as well. So I think it may have been out of that era that these regulations were brought in.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Could I just ask then, because we have received some evidence already, as you would imagine, and there is a school of thought out there which says that the current system works very well. So I think there is an understanding that, like you say, these regulations should not need to be renewed every 3 years. There could be a permanent system in place. But there are those who say, like you said, that it works very well, why change it from its current home? Have you got any thoughts on that?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

Yes. So it depends which element you want to look at it. So at the moment it lies in the judiciary. It is the Bailiff that gives permission to events. That in a modern society is unusual that judiciary would be involved in that way. You would ordinarily want it to be on the democratically elected side of your government functions and then usually delegated in some way through ministerial authority. There are definitely shortcomings in ... if you are an event organiser, if you have been doing events in Jersey for quite a long time, I think you then know the system and it becomes like any system. You get to know, you become adept at navigating that system. So if you are a regular events organiser in Jersey, I think in the main you would know how to navigate the system and do it. If you are new to events organisation in Jersey, I think then it does become quite unusual as a system. Because not only do you have to go and get the permission from the Bailiff but you also have to look at other sets of laws, such as the Licensing Law, the Policing of Beaches Law, and a number of other laws that can impact on your event. So one element of changing regulations is also looking at those other laws and trying to make it simpler to bring ... where your event does touch other laws make it simpler to bring that all together for events organisers.

Deputy M. Tadier : Yes.

Deputy K.M. Wilson :

To your understanding, Minister, what defines an event?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

It is a really very good question. It is one of the ... as we seek to change these regulations, that is one of the questions we have to ask ourselves. So the question to me is not what constitutes an event, it is what constitutes a public event. Because I can have an event at my home and I do not need permission for that. So I think the main things are: are you taking money? Is it for commercial gain? A lot of the time it is part of it. Not all events are for commercial gain, but are they also being held in a public place? Even so there, even if it is not for commercial gain, you are holding it on public land in a public place and you are inviting the public to take part in them. That is when you start to need to look at the protections from the public from a health and safety perspective and so on as to whether your event needs to fall under these regulations.

[12:15]

Deputy K.M. Wilson :

Okay. Thank you. The regulations establish a penalty of imprisonment for up to 6 months.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: Yes.

Deputy K.M. Wilson :

An unlimited fine or both for an offence of holding a public entertainment without the permission of the Bailiff .

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: That is right.

Deputy K.M. Wilson :

Or contravening a condition of the permission given. Are these penalties appropriate?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

Well, again, they are appropriate from the perspective that they align with U.K. penalties for holding events without the appropriate permissions from the authorities in the U.K. So they are not out of step with other jurisdictions. As people around this table know, I do not always look to the U.K. as my guide, but by looking at another jurisdiction it helps you understand whether the legislation we have is appropriate or not. So it is not out of step with the U.K. legislation. Another place we look to when we are designing legislation around penalties is the Attorney General and the Attorney General's Office, and they provide a guide as to the appropriate penalties. So from this perspective, I believe the Attorney General was almost certainly consulted back in the early 1990s about the penalties and, as I say, it is not out of step at all with the U.K. legislation. So from that perspective I believe it is appropriate. I think, if I may, it is really important to understand the role the regulations play. So until 1992 when these regulations were brought in, events were entirely held under

customary law and the customary law does not provide maximum levels of penalty. So theoretically, under the previous purely customary law regime, imprisonment was unlimited. While the fine remains unlimited, theoretically if you were found guilty of an offence under customary law for holding an event without permission of the Bailiff , you would not know how long you may be imprisoned for. So one of the reasons for bringing these ... I understand one of the reasons for bringing these regulations in 30 or so years ago was to provide maximum penalties. So it is a protection from the public in that respect as well ... sorry, it is a protection for events organisers in that respect as well.

Deputy K.M. Wilson : Yes.

Deputy M. Tadier :

We heard evidence yesterday that one suggestion was that the ... well, first of all that no prosecution has ever happened under these regulations, which could be seen as a good or bad thing. It might mean that they are effective or that they are not, I guess. There was a suggestion that it might be more of an effective penalty to remove somebody's ability to organise an event for a period of time in the same way that you might with a liquor licence. Do you have any thoughts about that?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

I have not thought about it before you putting it before me right now, but that actually does sound like a potentially rational way forward as well as an alternative. Because again it is very easy to look at maximum penalties and say: "Oh, you could go to prison for 6 months." The reality, I think - I think and I am not part of the judiciary - if it was a first offence, you held an event without permission, and especially if nothing had gone wrong from a health and safety perspective, I think it is highly unlikely anyone would be sentenced to 6 months' imprisonment for that. As with all these things, these are maximum penalties, but the idea of a disqualification for a period of time, in the same way that it works around driving licences and things like this, does sound like an interesting way forward and one that I am very happy to ask officers to explore.

Deputy K.M. Wilson :

Do you have any understanding of the industry's view on the penalties?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

I have not personally asked. The view I have from industry is about the regulations and the system in general rather than the penalties. So I would have to say hand on heart I do not think I do.

Deputy K.M. Wilson :

Okay. Right. One of the things that we are interested to understand is whether or not the regulations are enforced. So, in your view, are you aware of any instances where there has been a penalty issued at all?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

No, as the Chair said, I do not believe so. But we do have a healthy events ... and have had for the 30 or so years since these regulations came in. We have had ... all those thousands of events have taken place under these regulations and certainly the fact that there have been no convictions suggests ... and in the main again I struggle to think of an event that went awfully wrong in terms of a public safety perspective. So in that sense I believe that these regulations have been doing the job intended and that people are asking for permission. In asking for permission, the Bailiff 's Office, which runs events licensing at the moment, puts on conditions, ensures that health and safety, that fire risks, et cetera, are taking place. It seems to me that since 1992 that system has been working reasonably, absolutely, and to a positive effect.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Can I ask about the possibility of what you might call the counterfactuals in the sense that not simply about the penalties but the process itself for applying for an event? Do you have any sense of events that have not taken place that might have if we had a different system, which some argue might be a more streamlined, quicker system that did not need 6 months' lead-in period perhaps?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

So I have definitely heard of events or I have heard of people who have told me they have not put on events because of the system, but sometimes that may well be because they came to it quite late and it was perhaps an event that they were wanting to put on in a month's time but they were only starting the process now. I could not tell you which events. I think it would be inappropriate to say which events did not happen. At the end of the day they are non-events.

Deputy M. Tadier :

But do you think that it should be reasonable? If you are a businessperson and you have a company and you want to put an event on in one month's time in a public place because you are responding to public events or you have just got a contact who you can get to Jersey but only in that time, do you think that is reasonable to be able to turn an event round in a month's time? Do you think it should be possible?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

I think it should be possible for people to ... there is a lot more than just the licensing that goes into whether you can put an event on or not. If you believe ... and again it depends on the scale of the event. If it is a relatively small event and you are reacting to, as you say, some sort of other event or public demand for something ... the event in Howard Davis Park at the moment, the football screening event, that has been undertaken in short time. So yes, it can be reasonable, I think, for a short timeframe to be part of it. What I would say, if I was an event organiser and I only had a month or so to organise my event in, I would ask them to pause and think: "Can you do it properly in that timeframe?" It takes a lot of resource to put on almost any event. My experience when I have organised events personally in the past is that they almost always take more resource than you thought they would. So if it is very last minute, I think it is worth checking yourself and thinking: "Hold on, is it worth doing it in this timeframe? Could we find a later date to put it on?"

Deputy M. Tadier :

Yes. There are those who would say that if you are well connected and you are part of the parish or you are ... dare we even say that you can put on a visit for some very high-profile visitors within the space of 2 or 3 weeks and pull out all the stops and that can be done. There are those who suggest that if you are in a certain position you can do it, but if you are a private company there is a lot of red tape that is involved in it, whereas ... it has been suggested to us that that might be expedited. I do not know if that is on your radar.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

It is not on my radar but I can understand why people would have that view.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Okay. I think question 2 has been answered already so I will not ask that. Max, if we are all happy with the progress?

Deputy K.M. Wilson :

Yes, there was just one addition if I could, Minister, which is to just ask whether there will be any alterations that might be beneficial in deterring unlawful public entertainment.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: When you say alterations, to the current licensing?

Deputy K.M. Wilson : To the current ... yes.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

I think from my perspective changing the events regulations and the licensing regime, the benefit is ... the alteration of the benefit is in making it a simpler system to navigate but also enabling us to have a more strategic outlook on events. So we have held workshops with event organisers and one of the key elements that they really wanted was to see a more extended calendar of events, even out to 10 years, so that you can then start planning around ... I know I am saying 10 years, a very long way away. How do you do that? But actually when you think about big sporting events, so we hosted the opening of the Tour de Bretagne many years ago. If we wanted to do that again, that is potentially the sort of event which you would start working on 6 years or so, something like ... you know, many years in advance. Same with the Island Games. We have booked in the Island Games for 10 years, 11 years' time. So with that in mind, I can see how you actually could start constructing a 10-year calendar of events. So from the perspective of enabling a simpler system and enabling us to do work on a more strategic approach to events in Jersey - because I think events are absolutely vital for many reasons in Jersey - I think those are the main benefits.

Deputy K.M. Wilson : Okay. Thank you.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Before we move on to you, Max, just while I think of it, it is very simple to organise an event, we have been told, if you have a venue which is already registered for events, that has a rolling event licence. So, for example, at town halls, parish halls, you can put events on there. You do not need to apply for a separate one every time. But it is difficult if you want to put a public event on. So even if it is an area where it might be frequently used for public events, would you give consideration to the possibility to license, if you like, or to give permanent or rolling licences to public places like the Weighbridge, like the Royal Square, like People's Park?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: Like Howard Davis Park.

Deputy M. Tadier : Howard Davis Park, yes.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

I am happy to give consideration to that. I think the difficulty you have in part, let us say, is that you can have events of very, very different sizes, which then have very different needs from a health and safety perspective. So if I am putting on an event in St. Lawrence Parish Hall , the parish hall itself restricts the number of people who can be in that event. In itself, the parish hall has its own fire policies, its own safety policies. A park does not in the same way, or an open public space does not in the same way. So I could understand why it might be really difficult to do that because every event ... out here we had a large dance event in May, Lib in the Square. That is very different to holding the Fete de Noué in the Royal Square. They would need 2 different levels and 2 very different kind of health and safety and management regimes around them. For that reason I think it would be quite difficult to do, to have just the Royal Square is licensed for all events, off you go, because each event organiser would still need to be presenting their specific health and safety plans, et cetera.

Deputy M. Tadier :

So I think the question might be about licensing an individual and having a competent organiser of an event, but the space itself could be seen as an event space.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

Definitely, and I think most of us would know most of the ... you have named some, I have added one, Howard Davis Park, the Royal Square, et cetera. I think most of us know where most of those event spaces are, so in the sense of making it easier, yes, you know that is an event space and, yes, what you need to do then is just overlay your own proper management regimes, which need to get a sign-off from somebody in authority. I can see that being absolutely possible.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

I note that the Barriers to Business report was published and you also indicated that you would like to be reducing red tape to allow the private sector to thrive.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: Yes.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

So I was wondering whether you believe that the current regulations happen to be bureaucratic and is there much red tape involved for those who do try and obviously launch events?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

That is the feedback I have been getting from the sector, that they do find it difficult and, as we were saying earlier, particularly people who are new to the sector. Yes, it is definitely an area where you become more adept the more events you put on. So in that sense, yes, that is absolutely one of the reasons. As I said, the fact that individual events can also require the input of other laws and threading that all together for me would make life a lot easier for businesses.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

Of course, you will be the responsible Minister for bringing forward the primary and potentially the secondary legislation and that might then go through into next term as well.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: Yes.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

So what alterations are you seeking to see under the legislation to ensure that the private sector can have a more streamlined process?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

We are scoping it out at the moment. So, as I said, we have the strategic funding framework to support events. That is something we want to do. We are in the process at the moment of scoping exactly how it would work. I do not know if there is anything from Olivia or Dan, whether you would want to add to that area.

Group Director - Economy: I do not think so ...

Sector Lead for Visitor Economy and Retail: The detail has not started yet.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: That is still to be confirmed, basically.

Strategic Policy Manager: Could I just say ...?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: Yes, of course.

Strategic Policy Manager:

The one thing is the areas like policing of beaches, policing of parks, which do not fall under the Minister's responsibility ...

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: Beaches does.

Strategic Policy Manager:

Yes, beaches but not parks, no. Then also the roadworks and events legislation, which is another level of legislation. That is something else we would like to do. The whole idea is to simplify the legislation so when you do apply for a licence for an event it can be a seamless process.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: So process is as important as anything else.

Deputy M.B. Andrews : Yes.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

As well as just the regulations themselves, having a process which is much easier to navigate.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

Yes. Yesterday the panel did some public hearings and it was made quite clear that it is quite usual to see an event take perhaps 6 months to be approved. So do you believe that time is acceptable or do you believe it should be a lot less or maybe ...?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

So again I need to caveat my response, sorry, with it is always on a case by case basis. As I said, I have organised events in the past, some of them extremely large events. I have worked on them for a year in advance. But you are talking specifically about the approval process?

[12:30]

Deputy M.B. Andrews : Yes.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

I would like to think it would be possible that even the largest events could be approved in a shorter timeframe, but that means that you would also have to make sure ... if I am organising a large event approval is going to be faster if I have already got the health and safety, fire permissions, spoken to the police about numbers, things like this. That will help speed up the approval process. So I think there is a balance to be struck in the sense of yes, we can make the process simpler. That could make the approval system faster, but if as an event organiser you have not done your work in advance, that will delay. If you are drip-feeding your crowd management plan and your fire safety plan, if you are drip-feeding it into the authority that approves or otherwise, then it is going to slow down the process and the authority cannot do anything about that.

Deputy M.B. Andrews : No. Thank you very much.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Thank you. I suppose we can move on to what we might consider the meat in some ways of why we called this in. So I think there is a lot of agreement around the table in terms of ... well, probably in terms of that there is a lot of agreement in the Assembly about the fact that these regulations should be ... it should be the last time they are lodged and that there is something to replace them. So I think the question that we have and hence our amendment really relates to Article 6 about how long these regulations should last for. So you have already given us an indication that you ... I think it is Article 6. You can tell me if I am wrong.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: Five, I think.

Deputy M. Tadier : Is it 5?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: Regulation 5 specifies the expiry date of the regulations.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Thank you for clarifying that. I should have it in front of me, Minister.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: I did not know it off the top of my head. [Laughter]

Deputy M. Tadier :

No, no. So you have already said that you want to come back with primary legislation before this term ends.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: Yes.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Do you know roughly when you would seek to lodge that and have it debated?

Before the end of the term is probably the best I can give you there. We will try to do everything we can to get all of it, regulations included, before the ... do not get me wrong, that is our ultimate aim. I would love to get it all before the term of this Assembly finishes. I am being cautious because I know that there are elements of drafting any legislation that are out of the hands of the Minister, that I have no time, no real ability to control, and it is because of that reason that I am asking for the full 3 years. I think the lodging of these regulations, the current ones before us, is an example. We passed them to law drafting 4 months before law drafting passed them back to us. So these regulations that we are currently reviewing, you are currently reviewing, were ...

Deputy M. Tadier : Did you specify ...

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: ... were in law drafting for 4 months.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Did you specify when you wanted them back?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: So that is out of my control.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Yes. Did you specify to the Law Draftsman when you wanted them back, though, these regulations?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

I think we probably made it clear that it was as quickly as possible but I do not pass them to law drafting myself so I do not know.

Deputy M. Tadier :

We did have the law draft officers in. What they have indicated ... in a sense, we are not really talking about these regulations, we are talking about the future law.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: Well, yes.

Deputy M. Tadier :

So they have effectively told us that this is pretty much a copy and paste job because it is just relodging the triennial regulations.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: That is why I do not understand why it took 4 months.

Deputy M. Tadier :

But in terms of the new legislation, where do you anticipate the snags are and the hold-up points? What is going to take the full 2 or potentially longer years to deliver on new regulations?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

It appears to have taken 4 months to do what in your words, Chair, were a copy and paste job. So I have concerns that a more complex primary legislation followed by secondary legislation may take something more than 4 months and, therefore, is out of my ... and, as I say, is completely out of my control. We chased, as I understand it ... while we lodged the regulations in September ... sorry, we passed law drafting instructions to law drafters in September 2023. We passed them to the panel as well at exactly the same time or on the same day. We then chased in January and even after that chasing it still took about a month to get them back to us.

Deputy M. Tadier :

So is the reason for your cautiousness in part due to you think the Law Draftsman might take their time in returning this?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

Yes, and in that case it is also because it is brand new primary and secondary legislation. We have the Heritage Law going through law drafting at the moment. None of this is ... it is really important to note none of this is criticism of law drafters. I do not know their job. I do not do their job. But with the heritage legislation, that has been in drafting for a very long time, partly because it is now also a back and forth. Law drafters ...

Deputy K.M. Wilson : Can I ...

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: If I may, sorry ...

Deputy M. Tadier :

I was just going to say with ... we have had the law ... it is a woman, actually, it is a law draftswoman, a law draft ...

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: I said law drafter.

Deputy M. Tadier :

No, no, I am just saying it for myself to make sure I get it correct. We did have her in and it was a public hearing so all that evidence is on the public record. Can I just put a quote to you from the Minister for External Relations when we had him in at a quarterly hearing? He said: "Can I just say in my experience when people blame the Law Draftsman for things, that is passing the buck and it is not them at fault." What do you think about that statement from ...

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

Well, I am not blaming the law drafters. There is no blame on my part. All I am saying is that it is an area that is one of several areas that are out of my control as Minister. So that is why I am asking for the full 3 years. Because I cannot control that process and so again I mentioned as we come towards the end of the term of office, when I was in my last term in the States Assembly I was an Assistant Minister at the end of that term and I was hoping to get the Statistics Law through before the end of the term. The Chief Minister at the time decided to deprioritise that for perfectly good reasons on his part. As the head of Government he had his own priorities that he wanted to get through. That is another thing that could happen is the Chief Minister could say: "Actually, we are not that interested in these regulations. We want them to wait." So this is not about blaming anybody. I am not blaming the law drafters. All I am saying is there are various elements of the law drafting process - and by that I mean the whole law drafting process, not just the writing that the drafters do - that are completely out of my control.

Deputy M. Tadier :

So in terms of what is in your control, what level of priority do you give this new legislation?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

This is absolutely of the highest priority, alongside some other high priorities, including the licensing law, the Liquor Licensing Law.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Thank you. We can leave that there.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

This is something I want to get done if I can this side of the Assembly.

Deputy M. Tadier : Thank you.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

All I am being is cautious. I do not want to make promises that I cannot deliver on.

Deputy M. Tadier : Understand.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: That is the simple truth.

Deputy K.M. Wilson :

Thank you. I was just going to pick up on the point. So if you specified that you wanted this to happen within a 2-year timeframe, you can do that as much as specifying that you want it done in a 3-year timeframe. So what you are saying is that you are not specifying in a 2-year timeframe because you have some concern about whether or not it can be delivered in that timeframe?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: Yes, and the reason ... yes, that is correct.

Deputy K.M. Wilson : Okay. All right. Thank you.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

Again, it is because of those elements out of my control. If I controlled the whole process, if the whole process effectively was delivered by my officers, I would feel more comfortable in being able to actually put a deadline and say: "We will get this done." I will have spoken to Dan. We would have sat there and looked at the department's workload, reprioritised the workloads accordingly and said: "Look, we can get this done by then." But because so much of this process is outside of my department and also, like I say, towards the end of the term the Chief Minister will certainly have his own prioritisation, I just do not feel able. I will specify and everyone here at the table knows we want to try to get this done before the end of this term of office. I just cannot make that promise.

Group Director - Economy:

If I may, I would endorse that. Again, we have a good working relationship with law officers. Currently, we have effectively 10 pieces of legislation that we are trying to amend or create and invariably, whether it is amending or creating, just the simple process of having the dialogue around clarity, in primary we have to go to Privy Council, all of that sort of stuff in a world where we are constantly reprioritising does make it very difficult to predict a very definite date that this is going to land. So the closer you get and the further through the process the more definite you become, but at this stage I think it is obviously reasonable to be cautious in that context. So we find that in almost every piece of legislation that we reveal something that we had not anticipated. I think it is just effectively part of the process.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

As Minister I have not ... I have only been a Minister for a couple of years so I have not done large amounts of legislation. The processes, I am learning them myself. The main one I have to go on or the main couple are the Heritage Law and the Statistics Law. I think the Statistics Law offers a really interesting element, which is where stakeholders can come from different places that I certainly as Minister was not expecting. So one of the questions that was raised unexpectedly with regard to the Statistics Law was from the States Greffe. So the States Greffe came in raising queries about the law and the Scrutiny Panel, the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel, is currently looking at their queries. So that was a stakeholder that I personally had not seen as a stakeholder that may come in with their own perfectly valid queries, which in itself then makes you relook at the process. It just slows down the process a bit more. Again, no blame. These are perfectly good queries and perfectly legitimate reasons for slowing things down but they are totally out of my control.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Can I move this on? So I think just to put more meat on the bones, really, so in a sense we understand that in an ideal world you will be working towards the end of this term to try and bring in both primary and regulations if that is possible. So we accept that and we take that at face value, so thank you for that. In terms of what needs to go into the new primary law and the regulations, it would be good to get ... although this is not what we are scrutinising, I think in terms of analysing that timeframe and the feasibility of it, can you tell us some of the things that need to be put into the new law and what the key changes are?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

So we would actually have to start with an earlier question, which is a definition of public events. We would have to have a new authority for licensing those public events and we would also have to have, as we were talking about earlier, the linkages to other laws to try to simplify that process. Those are some elements ...

Deputy M. Tadier :

Could we talk about the ...

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: ... that I can foresee.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Can we talk about the authority? Where do you envisage this will sit? Will it be in-house?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: In-house meaning?

Deputy M. Tadier :

Will it be part of the Economic Development Department?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

So I imagine it being the Minister for Sustainable Economic Development being the ultimate authority. In my head at the moment the way I foresee it is that is likely to be a power delegated to somebody else in the sense that I would think it is unlikely that ...

Deputy M. Tadier :

You are not going to sign off every event.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: ... it would be run by officers ... yes.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Unlikely it would be run by officers or ...?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: By officers. So I can imagine delegating it ...

Deputy M. Tadier : To an officer?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

Or to another party. So there are regulatory bodies that we currently have. I can imagine potentially using an existing regulatory body as the delegated authority for event licensing.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Yes. Okay. I understand that. So there has been a suggestion that it could involve a new commission.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

So a new commission on paper using existing regulatory resources. So an existing regulatory body.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Is it right for a regulator to do ... there are different ways to look at it. I suppose one that springs to mind, it may not be a perfect analogy, but you have D.V.S. (Driver and Vehicle Standards), which of course is responsible for telling people when they can drive by issuing licences and registering cars, for example, and vehicles. But that is done as part of D.F.I. (Department for Infrastructure). Is it not something that could be done in-house where it is just an administrative process?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

It absolutely could be done in-house but I think then you also bring it closer to the political world. I think having it independent ... so I would not like to think of events being influenced ... so events licensing being politically influenced. I do not know.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Why would they be politically influenced, though?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

I am the Minister for Economic Development and if I do not like football events, let us say, so I choose then not to ...

Deputy M. Tadier : Okay.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

All I am saying is by putting it into an independent body you are removing it further from the political process.

Deputy M. Tadier :

But do you think that D.V.S. is political when they issue a licence or register a new vehicle?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

I think D.V.S., while I do not know a great deal ...

Deputy M. Tadier :

They do not say: "I do not like Jeeps so I am not going to register your Jeep", you just have a process which is egalitarian.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

But what D.V.S. has is a very clear set of guidelines about the weight, the size, the power, the polluting values of vehicles and they work within that framework to say: "Right, if it fits within the framework we are going to license it." I think of the Citroen Amis, which fell outside of that framework, and there was actually a political process, I believe, to try and ... "We want these Citroen Amis to be licensed in Jersey. Please, D.V.S., could you look at how you can change or adapt your existing framework to mean that they can be?" Again, not something I am close to, but I think my worry would be just that if you had a Minister for Economic Development who did not even like events, who just felt that he or she liked the peace and quiet of the Jersey countryside and so Weekender was not something they wanted, I would not like to see that political overlay on to the decisions around events licensing.

Deputy M. Tadier :

But is that not then a case of having a robust framework? So you could argue in a sense - we are already hearing it - that people do not ... I do not think the user minds where it sits. There might be some users who have a philosophical problem with the Bailiff having so many hats, but most of them just want a smooth and clear system.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: Absolutely.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Are you saying that a Minister for Economic Development would have any direct input into the system if it were in-house?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

It is possible. Once it sits in-house it is much, much closer to the Minister but ...

Deputy M. Tadier :

Could a commissioner not have that? So if the head of whatever organisation had personal prejudices against music or jazz ...?

[12:45]

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

It can be done, yes. Of course, that is possible and also I think it is really important to understand what I am saying to you here are my thoughts. They are not the road we are going down. Our process is to have that stakeholder engagement to see how best to play it: should it sit with the Minister, should it sit with an independent body? My thinking was that in order to make it as depoliticised as possible an independent body would be better, but it is a personal view, not necessarily what will appear in the law.

Deputy M. Tadier :

One thing we have heard at the moment is that it is incredibly good value for the person or company putting on an event. It is £40 I think to get a P.49 and you get so much for that in terms of the value and the administration. Is that something you think you ... can you compete with that in terms of the efficiency and cost-effectiveness?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

It is a very good question and not one I have considered yet, I am afraid. I have not considered that.

Deputy M. Tadier :

You are known as somebody who does not want to create unnecessary red tape.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: That includes unnecessary pricing as well.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Yes, but you presumably also want to get some cost recovery from any new system.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

It is likely that cost recovery would be a part of that system, but genuinely I have not looked at the pricing element of it. So I would not want ...

Deputy M. Tadier :

They might be questions for another day, I think.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

Yes, they absolutely could be, perhaps as the new system becomes clearer. But it would be ... you are right, I think, there is a bit of quandary there because is £40 ... does that cover all the costs of the Bailiff 's Office? It sounds like it may not do, as in the Bailiff 's Office may be, in colloquial terms, taking something of a financial hit on that. So, bringing it out of that system may increase the price. That is a possibility. It is certainly one that I would want to put pressure on to make sure any price increases were as low as possible, but it is possible.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Would you envisage that a much more digitised system, an online, streamlined application system telling you exactly what you need to submit when ...?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: Absolutely.

Deputy M. Tadier :

You can follow it where you are in the application process.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: Yes. It is a really simple answer to that one: yes.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Sorry if they are ... do come in, but I mean ...

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: No, but in a nice way that is ...

Deputy M. Tadier :

I think the last one in this one is that we were told yesterday, we heard one piece of evidence that said it is a real ... we know businesses need certainty and event organisers may be individuals as well and sometimes they might not get the certificate in their hand until a week or even a day before the event. We have been told on one hand that is really problematic if you are trying to get the security to run an event. We were told on the other hand by the Bailiff 's Office that it does not really matter because an event could be cancelled at the last minute anyway if it does not meet certain criteria, so it is kind of academic when you receive that. What is your feeling about the need for certainty in that whole process?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

So certainty is one of my touchpoints for economic and business thinking in general. I take it as a given that for most organisations, not just profit-making businesses, it could be non-profits, any organisation trying to do anything, the environment they are operating in, the greater the certainty

of that environment, the easier it is for them to operate. So the greater the certainty on whether your event is going ahead or not from a bureaucratic perspective, the better it is for the organiser. So having licences issued, let us say, with at least ... off the top of my head at least one month before the event would make it easier for them because they also have to get insurance. Yes, of course, weather for an external event could cause the cancellation of any event. That is just life. A bureaucratic process is something that is in human control and, therefore, the greater the certainty they can give event organisers by providing licences ahead of time, the better it is. Equally, though, if you are an event organiser who submitted all your information, as I said earlier, in a drip, drip, drip fashion or submitted it all very late, you are going to have to put up with the fact that your permission will come through much closer to the time of your event, possibly the day before. Again, it is a balance, but whichever office undertakes the event licensing, if they can undertake that swiftly, perhaps with ... one of the things I imagine we would seek to do, whether it is in-house in a department or externally with a regulatory function, is to set a code of conduct or service level agreement that events licensing decisions will be taken within X amount of days or weeks after the final piece of information has been submitted.

Deputy M. Tadier : Thank you.

Deputy K.M. Wilson :

Thanks. I was just going to ask that question about whether you would be considering a set of standards around that. If I could just move now to the development of the legislation, the new legislation preparation, what kind of measures are you putting in place to ensure that the accountability and the progress is being tracked to develop the legislation? So have you got a programme already lined out and have you actually issued drafting instructions to lawmakers as yet and, if not, when will you do that?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

No, we have not issued instructions to lawmakers and that is because we are still in the scoping phase of the work. So we are still at the very beginning of this work and we are still engaging with stakeholders as to the type of legislation that they would like to see. So until that process is complete we will not be issuing any law drafting instructions. So we are not at that point yet. We are working with the Jersey Events Partnership or we are going to form the Jersey Events Partnership as a first step. That partnership will oversee the development and delivery of the events framework.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Where is the budget coming for that?

From my department.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Which? Is it coming out of the culture budget?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

It could well be, but I do not know if a final decision has been made on that.

Strategic Policy Manager:

No, but it will be coming out of the events budget.

Deputy M. Tadier : Is that percentage ...

Strategic Policy Manager: No.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

No, the events budget sits in the department budget, the wider department budget. It is not a ring- fenced element. So the steps that we have at the moment are to form a Jersey Events Partnership. That will oversee the development and delivery of the framework. We are going to appoint project board members, prepare and agree a strategic plan and then with those people appointed and the appropriate people appointed, terms of reference and objectives will be set for that. That will then help us move swiftly to the law drafting and beyond.

Deputy K.M. Wilson :

Does any of that plan include specific timescales for when you are going to be in a state of readiness?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

There will be, yes, because it is a project. So you work from your deadline, which will be the end of this term of office backwards. So you will have certain milestones in there.

Deputy K.M. Wilson :

Right. Okay. So in terms of the issue of that, when are you anticipating the lodging of the primary legislation, given you have that timeframe in place? Can you just give us an indication of when the likelihood is of when you are going to actually develop the lodging of that legislation?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

The lodging of that legislation I imagine will be the first quarter of 2026.

Deputy K.M. Wilson : Okay. Do you have a ...

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

But, sorry, I was just going to say again this is something we can take scrutiny with us. So in a sense of, yes, you can lodge it ... from a scrutiny perspective you may see nothing and then we just lodge it and pass it to you. My intention would be to take you with us so you as a Scrutiny Panel would have sight of where we are going with that. So it would not be just thrown on the Scrutiny Panel at the end when lodging takes place.

Deputy K.M. Wilson :

So would it be possible to have specific deadlines for each stage of this process?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: We will be able to one day provide you with that.

Deputy K.M. Wilson : When? [Laughter]

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: That is not today, though. [Laughter]

Deputy K.M. Wilson :

Okay. Can you give us a deadline as to when you will have that ready?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: I would have to ask officers.

Deputy M. Tadier : Or a timeline.

Deputy K.M. Wilson : Or a timeline.

Group Director - Economy:

We are going through a prioritisation exercise in the context of the Civil Service business of government work. We have more or less concluded that. We need some sign-off from the Minister before we would publish any dates, but we have made sure that the legislative and statutory work that we have on the books is prioritised in that. The ambition thereafter ... well, it is more than ambition. What will happen thereafter is we will I think more effectively than we have done previously in reality turn those into effectively projects that will be ... we will have key milestones, key deliverables, key performance indicators across our standard B.A.U. (business as usual), which is an approach we have not had before. So I would hope within the next couple of weeks we would have some sense of our anticipated timeline in the context of all of our legislation, which will give us some comfort that we can actually deliver the stuff that we are being asked to. I think that is something that is happening across the Government as well. So yes, I think in a couple of weeks we will be in a position to get clearance that that is the priority.

Deputy K.M. Wilson :

I think taking the Minister's comment into consideration about bringing scrutiny with you, I think actually the transparency around that is really important.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: Absolutely.

Deputy K.M. Wilson :

I also think so for the industry as well, from what we have heard, is that they would like to know how things are panning out.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: Yes, absolutely.

Group Director - Economy:

I think hopefully our approach to strategic and legislative development is changing. I think it is becoming more inclusive with starting to take a broader co-production approach that builds some social capital at the beginning of the process. As you know, we are very happy and regularly come and give informal briefings to the panel. We are hoping to continue to do that. In my experience over the last 16 years, using effectively the Scrutiny Panel as a consultee in the building process is hugely helpful.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

From the timeline perspective, part of the reason to make sure that scrutiny is working in parallel or at least seeing what we are doing is that if there is slippage you can hold us to account. That is not necessarily about telling you off if you are 3 weeks late but understanding why we are 3 weeks late on something and things like that.

Deputy K.M. Wilson : Absolutely, yes.

Group Director - Economy:

But I guess it is an important part of that timeline. We would not want to do the great reveal and it is miles away from what you had anticipated. So there is a genuine benefit in terms of the collaboration approach in the context of the timeline as well.

Deputy K.M. Wilson :

Sure. Okay. On the secondary legislation, when are you likely ... given that you have indicated the first quarter of 2026, what about the secondary legislation?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

So the timeline that we will create would include that. It is the secondary legislation which is the part I am concerned about the most, so I think what we will have is the ideal timeline that we would like to see happen. I think as we work through that timeline as time passes we will see more clearly whether we are going to get the secondary legislation on this side of the election or afterwards. I think that is something that will develop over time, depending on how the process works and the success we have in keeping to the timescales.

Deputy K.M. Wilson :

Sure. Okay. Thank you. In terms of we have just alluded to the role that we will have together, but what other mechanisms will be implemented to keep the Assembly and the public informed about the progress and the potential delays? I know that, Dan, you have just talked about the co- production approach, but in general terms in the Assembly how might you expand some of the mechanisms you have around the communications for keeping people updated and informed?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

I think the main thing is ordinarily I would not think the progress of your work is necessarily something that you broadcast in the Assembly. By having a co-production approach, which is the way I have approached all the legislation that I have been seeking to amend or bring in since I became Minister, the key stakeholders, in this case principally the industry, would they ... as the key stakeholders are the ones who need to know the most and they will be very aware because they will be working with us on this, so this partnership board will make sure that they will know what is happening. To me, they are the people who know the most. As I have mentioned, scrutiny is a function of the States Assembly, so the Scrutiny Panel will also know. So from that perspective the States Assembly will know. If it wanted to actually be brought up physically in the States Assembly, I would suggest that is a role that scrutiny play through questions. Equally, if in the worst case scenario where this is not happening, it is not going to be done this side of the Assembly, that is the place I would have to, I would suggest, make a statement to the Assembly to explain why. But again scrutiny would be quite aware of that by then anyway because I intend to work as openly as I possibly can with scrutiny in that respect.

Deputy K.M. Wilson : Okay. Thank you.

Deputy M. Tadier :

We should not keep you too much longer. If we go over 5 minutes, is that a problem for you?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: The main issue here is just I am very hungry. [Laughter]

Deputy M. Tadier :

All right. Well, we are going to go for another hour. [Laughter] Yes, 5 minutes, that will make that sandwich even more tasty, I think.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: Exactly.

Deputy M. Tadier :

I will pass over to Deputy Andrews .

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

Thank you very much, Chair. What information have you gathered so far that will probably be part of the primary legislation?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: That will probably ...?

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

Be part of the primary legislation when it is being brought forward from your engagement with stakeholders?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

Well, I will ask officers on that front. That is just part of the scoping process which we are undertaking at the moment. So yes.

Strategic Policy Manager:

We have obviously had our workshop, which was in April, I think it was, so there was a number of points there which were raised. The 4 areas we look at, there have been 2 further ones which came out of the actual document. But in reality the actual ... it is more about the actual process rather than the actual primary legislation, so it will be more in the regulations how the process will actually work. The primary law will be about the what; the regulations will be the how. That is when we will continue to have dialogue with various stakeholders, event holders, Constables, parish officials as well.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

Can I just ask who turned up to the workshop?

Strategic Policy Manager:

There was a number of officers there from within Government, from various areas, and then there was a number of event holders as well.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

Okay. Any organisations such as the Hospitality Association?

Strategic Policy Manager:

The Hospitality Association. Visit Jersey were there as well.

Deputy M.B. Andrews : Okay.

Strategic Policy Manager:

So, yes, there was a number of ... I cannot remember. We had a good turnout. There was about 50 people there.

Deputy M.B. Andrews :

Okay. Right. That is good to know. Thank you.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Thank you. The last question: we are mindful some of this is going to come later so it may well be something that we scrutinise, but the panel have been informed that alcohol licensing is also a key issue connected to this and it is obviously relevant to the organisation and permitting and hosting public events. Can you outline how the future legislation might be connected with this, i.e. are you looking to maybe have a holistic law that you would bring together or would there still be 2 distinct parts?

[13:00]

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

I think at the moment we are still looking at 2 distinct parts. It had crossed my mind to have one holistic law, but I do not think it was something we have particularly discussed, I think, at the moment because of the desire to get work done before the end of term. I think it is probably easier working in 2 separate laws. It is not something we are particularly looking at doing. Another law which I just want to put on record, really, that we are obviously working on and changing is the Tourism Law. I am just doing that because I do not want people ... this is all about hospitality in its wider sense and I do not want anyone at the Hospitality Association to think that we have dropped the Tourism Law. We are working on that, those amendments, too. Yes, I see all of them remaining as separate laws.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Yes. The final question, I suppose, certainly the final written question that I have in front of me ... we might have others, but I do not think we will. What is the timeframe for production of the alcohol legislation?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: That is also this side of the Assembly.

Deputy M. Tadier : Yes. Okay.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

I will just double check my officers are content with that [Laughter] because that is something which ... that is a 1974 law.

Deputy M. Tadier :

How radical is it likely to be?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

It is going to be a ... we have chosen areas to amend the existing law rather than to write a new primary law, and again that is about speed. We will see different categories of a licence. I believe a consolidation ... because at the moment we have 7 categories of liquor licensing. One of the areas there is to reduce the number of categories, and again it is also about the process to go through. We need the parishes to be involved but at the same time I am not a fan ... it has been suggested to me that the parishes should do the licensing themselves. I am not a fan of that personally, but there will be involvement of the parishes.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Something I mentioned before, this may be worth considering. When I talked about licensing a particular area, one of the benefits ... so, for example, the town hall has a presumption that you can put events on there but you can also ... they can serve alcohol but they cannot sell alcohol.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: Yes.

Deputy M. Tadier :

So would you consider maybe applying a similar designation to certain areas? So, for example, the Royal Square, Howard Davis Park, you could say this is an area where alcohol can be served but in order to sell alcohol here you need to still go through the permit, whatever that might mean. We have also been told that the transfer from somebody to someone else is problematic for various reasons, but are those potentially areas that you might consider holistically?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

Starting with the transfer of licences, that is something we are looking to have from an events perspective, the overall event organiser being the licensee for the whole event rather than having separate licences. So at the moment if you go to a large event where there are 3 providers of alcohol, each of those will have a separate licence within that event. We are looking to change it so that you will just have one alcohol licence for the event, even though you may have 3 providers of alcohol within that. So that is one element that we are seeking to change.

Deputy M. Tadier : Okay.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: Are you able to remind me of the first part of the question?

Deputy M. Tadier :

No, I think that has covered it. It is just talking about the areas that might be designated.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

Yes. So, again, that is a way to make it easier within the events legislation and also it makes it easier for police. Because at the moment there is a grey area around if you serve alcohol in outlet A at a large event, also potentially outlet B, and there is an incident in the middle that is not covered by the licensed areas, then you have issues around responsibility and things like this. So by making it just the overall responsibility of the sole event organiser, then you get rid of these grey areas. Another element, just very quickly - I am remembering the beginning of your question - was I think ... so take the Royal Square. Yes, you could potentially license it to serve alcohol, have an ongoing licence you can serve alcohol in the Royal Square and if somebody wants to have an event where they sell alcohol in the Royal Square, you could have that separately as a different licence. What I would say is that when you are serving alcohol, particularly outdoors in public, you must not forget the public order element of that.

Deputy M. Tadier : Of course, yes.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

That is obviously the police are key stakeholders in all of this. So while I think what you were giving as an example would be feasible, that is where stakeholder engagement is key because the police as a key stakeholder may have public order reasons why they do not like to give just a standard licence.

Deputy M. Tadier : Sure.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: I do not know, it is just an example.

Deputy M. Tadier :

One anomaly - sorry to keep this going - if we take a parish hall, for example, you can put an event on at a parish hall and charge £100 a ticket and then have a free bar, unlimited bar, and you do not need a licence for that. But if you have a free event where you charge £10 for a glass of wine, you do need a licence for that. So there are anomalies about that.

Exactly. Again, one of the problems with drafting any laws is there are anomalies everywhere and that is one of the difficulties. As human beings, we create anomalies and when you create a law, you then create potential loopholes and things like this, if you know what I mean. So that is one of the difficulties with creating new laws.

Deputy K.M. Wilson :

Just one final if I could. What is coming out of your initial feedback from your stakeholder consultations?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

The main one is a willingness to get on with it and want to see a significant simpler process to take place. One of the things you will get from this, we are at the beginning of this process so working with those stakeholders in a way that they feel empowered as well, whether it is the police or whether it is an event organiser, that they feel that they have been listened to, that their concerns are included, is one of the main takeaways that we have at the moment.

Deputy K.M. Wilson :

Okay. Thank you very much.

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development: Thank you.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Have you got anything you want to ask us or any clarification?

The Minister for Sustainable Economic Development:

No, not from my perspective other than to thank you as a panel for taking an interest. I really do look forward to working with you guys on this. The questions, again just immediately from having had an hour of questions is you have already raised some areas that I had not thought of and that is exactly why it is so important to work together with people. Because certainly one person but even one department cannot think of all the possible options and the possible questions, so thank you for that.

Deputy M. Tadier :

It is really for us to thank you for coming in, Minister, and thank you to your officers for giving up your time. We know you are all very busy so we do appreciate that. If it is okay, we will draw the meeting to a close. Thank you.

Grab a sandwich and see you in an hour.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Yes, see you in an hour. [Laughter]

[13:06]